7. All About Wilderness Therapy - with Maddi Mosher

Maddi Mosher shares her experiences as a wilderness therapy counselor for teens. With a bit of levity and a few funny stories thrown in we discuss how this kind of therapy works, the end goals, and pros and cons when choosing if this is a good option for your teen. 

It’s a great discussion that applies to each of us regardless of whether you have teens or not. I hope you enjoy it as much as we did!

Maddi worked for Wingate Wilderness Therapy, which is no longer operating, but if you have interest in checking out other options you can look into the Anasazi Foundation.
https://anasazi.org/ 

If you are finding value in this podcast leave a 5 star review and comment below! 

You can follow me (Kristen Russell, LMT) via instagram at https://www.instagram.com/sakalyamassage/

If you would like to get in touch you can email me at kristen@sakalyamassage.com

Transcript

0:00

I'm Kristen Russell, and this is The Wholly Empowered Podcast, where we dive into all things holistic healing and open our minds, hearts, and paradigms to new ideas so we can live our most empowered, healthy, joyful lives.

Kristen: 0:16

We are here with Maddi Mosher today and Maddi is one of my favorite people. We lived together for a long time. Your degree is in psychology, right? Yeah. And you've done work with children in, children, like teens. It's always been teens, right? Yeah. in like a therapeutic setting in like a, what would you call that? Where you started?

Maddi: 0:40

Yeah, so I started in residential treatment.

Kristen: 0:43

Residential treatment.

Maddi: 0:44

It's kind of like a home setting where there's a bunch of kids that have, A variety of backgrounds that have difficulty with their mental health, or difficulty with their family, or different situations. And that's what I started with, was Residential, and then I moved to Wilderness Therapy, which is my favorite.

Kristen: 1:04

And that's what I want to focus on today more than anything, because I think it's just, really interesting. And I just have lots of questions for you. So yeah, we'll cover all the things about wilderness therapy. And so that's Maddie. Did I miss anything?

Maddi: 1:21

No, that's me. Okay.

Kristen: 1:24

So, Okay, so you started in residential and then you moved to wilderness. And what, what got you started in this? What made you interested in it? How I heard about it was I was, I served a mission for Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints and One of the girls on my mission, a fellow missionary, her parents actually ran the company that I ended up working for after I graduated college, but she had been through the program herself and we talked about it and she was like, this is so cool. And I'm like, yeah, I would love to camp for that long and just have no one care about it. So I love the outdoors. I love the idea of just being free outside. And then adding therapy to it. I was like what could be better than that. So that's kind of what got me thinking about it at the time. I didn't think I was actually going to go into psychology. So it was just like a fun idea or fun thing. To think about but then I applied right out of college right after I got my degree in psychology, and they didn't get back to me very quick. And so I started in residential did that for a little bit. And then I emailed them again. And I was like, Hey, do you need anybody? I didn't even send my application. And again, I was just like, Hello. And they were like, Oh, yeah, we're looking for people. It's cool that you're still interested. And so that's how I got actually to work for the company that I worked for. I feel like you just really thrive in this environment. What do you think contributes to that?

Maddi: 3:04

I think part of it is that I'm really optimistic, but I also like everything about being outside of nature is just my happy space. So I'm going into an environment that is just very easy for me. And maybe that's not so much for other people. So I was in a space that was already. a safe space for me doing something that I already felt really comfortable with because I had just gotten my bachelor's degree in psychology. And so I felt like"I know some things". So it was easy for me to go into wilderness therapy and be like, okay, I understand kind of where these kids are coming from. From having previous experience with my own family and their mental health with my friends. And so I just felt like I had a good background of both cause I grew up being outside. I grew up with people that had mental health problems and so it felt pretty natural to me and so I just was optimistic and had a lot of fun with it and hopefully that helped people. If not, I had a fun time.

Kristen: 4:20

It's kind of tailored to you in a way. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I feel like if I was one of the teens and you were my counselor I think your confidence would give me a lot of confidence. Because I'm someone who's not as comfortable camping outside. And so I'm sure, I'm sure that was helpful. But I just want to get into this wilderness therapy as a therapy and kind of the day to day, but ultimately what I want to get at and the goal here is. Looking at this as a therapy, is it beneficial? Is it something that you, feel like you'd recommend? Cause and that's, what's the company called again that you worked for?

Maddi: 5:02

The company that I worked for, it was called Wingate Wilderness Therapy. They no longer work with youth, they just have an adult program now, and so the name has changed slightly too, but I worked with Wingate, and it's based in southern Utah, in Escalante National Monument.

Kristen: 5:21

And it's really similar, I think a lot of people are familiar with Anasazi.

Maddi: 5:24

Yeah. So the guy who created the program that I worked for actually worked for Anasazi for quite a few years and helped develop a lot of other wilderness programs in Utah before he created his own wilderness program, and all of them are based off of Anasazi. And their philosophy and ideology.

Kristen: 5:47

And it's not based on cause then you type like everything's religious. It's not, it's not religious, right. It's just like, yeah.

Maddi: 5:54

So it's not any religious based, uh, mostly it's based on relational therapy. So that's. A lot of it is how we relate to each other, how these kids can rebuild a relationship with their family and their parents, because that's a lot of the reasons that kids end up in therapeutic programs is because they don't have good relationships within their own family. And so the main goal of both programs when I did residential and when I did wilderness was to reunify the family, like. The kids hadn't been court ordered or anything to be here, but it was mostly their parents being like, Hey, I'm at my wit's end. I don't know how to get to this kid or we're just not working well together. And then for the parents and the kids to take accountability for what they did in their relationship, they created it so that they no longer had good communication. And so that's mainly what the programs are for. And that's a lot of. what Anasazi and a lot of therapeutic programs do is trying to create environments where families can come back together. And even if it's not perfect, they can work together and still be a cohesive family.

Kristen: 7:17

Wow. That's really cool.

Maddi: 7:19

Yeah.

Kristen: 7:19

So the kids who are coming, you said, it wasn't court ordered necessarily, but it's usually probably they're being sent maybe against their will. Like,

Maddi: 7:27

yeah. Yeah. So More often than not, it's the parents choice to send their kids to these different programs. And Every once in a while you get lucky, and it's the kid's choice to be there, and when it's the kid's choice, it works so much better. Like, these kids work really hard to make things happen, they want to get stuff done, they want to change, or they want their situation to change. So, that may be that they don't necessarily feel like everything was their fault. Which is usually true, but they play a part. And so, they would just work really hard, and usually their parents would work really hard too, because they would recognize, like, just when the kids choose, their therapy goes so much better. But most of the time, that's not what happens. It's usually a parent, or both parents, or grandparents, or just family, not being able to cope together, like, work things out. And so the parents either bring their kids or use a third party company to escort their kids to wilderness therapy or residential treatment centers. And if the parents bring them, that also is more beneficial than a third party bringing your kids. all of those ways, that's how kids usually get to our program. Every once in a while, we would get a kid who, it wasn't necessarily their choice to be there, but it was kind of this, or maybe do something else, relating to like court orders. So they had done something illegal, whether that be to do with drugs, to do with, I don't even know, usually it's drugs. And so, their options were either to come and do a therapeutic program, get off drugs, get away from that kind of situation, and then work through the process of getting clean and not being around people that make it hard for them to not be on drugs. And so that happens sometimes, but most of the time it's parents. Not knowing what to do with their kids and sending them to these different programs.

Kristen: 9:45

So it could be kind of a it's not really like a drug detox thing or anything, but it could be kind of Yeah. That could be a factor, I guess. Yeah. In some cases.

Maddi: 9:57

Just with experience, a lot of kids that have mental health problems, that young also dabbled in ways to self medicate, so a lot of them would have. other problems. Yeah. Yeah. Which is

Kristen: 10:14

sad, but like so real. No, totally. So walk us through like how the week goes. So they get there, I'm guessing on a weekend, you spend X amount of days. Like how does that, what does the day to day look like?

Maddi: 10:30

So what happens is they can show up on any day of the week. They could show up at eight o'clock in the morning or eight o'clock at night. They could show up whenever. And it's just a surprise. It's not truly a surprise, but it kind of feels that way for just the trail staff. So I was a trail staff and so these kids can show up kind of whenever for us. For the company though, they have specific days that they would come in and they would work with people in the office to get them. all set with their gear so everyone would have a backpack, they'd have clothes, they'd have food, whatever they needed to be out in the wilderness backpacking for up to a couple months.

Kristen: 11:12

So like, okay, yeah, so it's not like a week long thing every time or, you know, it's just very like, you're just out there and they bring them to you.

Maddi: 11:19

Yeah, so our shifts worked as where I worked two weeks on two weeks off. So I was out there for for sure for two weeks. Sometimes I work three weeks, but that didn't happen very often. But two weeks is how long staff would be out there at a time. So some kids would be there from like three weeks To the longest I ever had The kid chose to stay for six months, rather than go to residential afterwards, because a lot of wilderness therapy, and then you go to a residential. This kid chose, hey, I don't want to go to a residential, I excel here, And so they chose to stay for six months. So that's not the norm. At least it wasn't the norm for my company that I worked with so the kids would get all geared up and then they usually came out on a hiking day usually four to five days a week. We would go on hikes and What that means is they would hike with our backpacks Anywhere from three I worked with the girls mostly so we would hike three to seven miles But if you're working with boys or the adults, they hiked more five to ten miles every day, so the kids would come out and they had no idea if they were going to hike three miles that day, just coming in, or if we were going to have a seven mile hike. And we didn't tell the kids the mileage that we were going to hike that day until we got to camp that night. And we would do that five days a week, and then we would have what we called like layovers, and so we would have two days camping in the same spot, and we wouldn't hike unless they wanted to. Sometimes we would go on little adventures, And they were fun, like we would go up canyons so that they could hear their echoes and we could scream in the canyon, or we would go to where there was petroglyphs, and so we would show the kids where these cool petroglyphs were, and then tell them, please don't scratch on any of the rocks, like things like that. But usually we just hung around in camp and we would do crafts. We taught them how to make moccasins. I taught some girls how to make ponchos. We did a lot of jewelry making, we had, I don't know. We did a lot of stuff on layover days, because those days were when their therapists would come, and if we weren't busy doing something, then that's when arguments also happen. So we tried to keep like activities and games going. We played, it's like the precursor to lacrosse. So we would teach them how to make little lacrosse sticks, and it's like, two balls on a string, and you would fling them at each other. Eventually I made my own. We wanted them to see that you could make anything that you needed. That they could create anything that they needed. And they got really confident living outside and being able to make whatever they needed, literally. And so, we would play that every once in a while and everyone got super into it. And maybe it was just because I was super competitive, but I was always like, everybody's got to play. My team's gonna win, even though it didn't always win, but I would sure hype us up. We had a lot of fun on layover days. did group therapy on layover days. The director would come out and visit with us on layover days. So then he would come and teach us a skill like how to find clay out in the middle of the desert and turn it into pottery or how to make arrowheads, just like random different skills. And then it was a good day because we learned a lot of wilderness skills and we taught that to the kids. So. I'm capable of making fire out of sticks, but I'm not good at it. But so I got to teach kids how to do a bow and drill to make fire. And. So sometimes on layover days we'd practice that, because that's how we lit almost all of our fires, is by bow drills. And that's kind of how our week goes.

Kristen: 15:28

So lots of kind of like play therapy, I guess? Yeah. And then they bring therapists in and it's just a lot of variety, seems like. And then just being outside, I feel like it's therapeutic in itself.

Maddi: 15:39

Yeah.

Kristen: 15:42

So do you feel like it was an effective approach to therapy? Did you feel like the kids would come away changed? I, apparently I was thinking they were just out there for a little while, but it's like, they could be completely living in the wilderness for months. But,

Maddi: 16:01

so it definitely creates a bunch of feral little animals. I loved it. I think overall it's very beneficial. Like it was hard for all of the kids that did it. But I think after working residential and then working in wilderness, I definitely liked Wilderness better because it's so much more the kids choosing to do it themselves. So, like, if you don't want to clean your room, you don't have to, it's a sleeping bag. No one's gonna care. I'll tell you the ants and snakes might crawl in it, and if you don't want them to be in your sleeping bag, go shake it out, go put it in your backpack things like that. But it's all their own choice, mostly, once they get out there. It wasn't their choice usually to be there, but once they're there. everything that they choose to do, it's on them. I'm here to support you in positive choices. I'm not here to support you in any negative ones, but if you want to improve anything in your life, whether that be drawing, whether that be just making jewelry, yeah, if it's positive, I'm all in. If you want to be better friends with someone in our group and you don't know how to do that because you've never had a good relationship with another human before, let's work on that. Let's work on how we talk to each other. It's like, we don't want to be calling people names. We don't want to be like negative always in how we talk. And so we would just work on different aspects of self improvement. And it was a lot of the time led by the kids themselves, where they would see something and be like, I'm tired of this about myself, or as staff, we could see they were struggling with something and be like, Hey, I'm Do you want to improve on that? Or do you dislike this part of your life? And would you like to make it different or better and then work on it from there? So it was more led by the kids instead of an adult coming in and being like, this is what you have to work on. This is, What your real problem is. And you have to do all these steps to get to this point. It was more, yeah, your life really sucks. Part of that's your fault, but let's work on some things and you can get to a better place and that's just where we want you to be. We don't have any huge grandiose end goal for you. We just want you to be better than you were yesterday. And so that part of wilderness therapy and the program that I worked with. was very appealing to me and made. I don't know. I felt like wilderness therapy was superior.

Kristen: 18:53

Well, there's like very natural consequences. Like you were saying, like the sleeping bag versus you have to clean your room. And it's like, why, you know? And then outside it's like, well, you can just deal with the consequences.

Maddi: 19:04

Yeah. Yeah. I'm like at 2am when you wake me up, because there's a bunch of ants in your sleeping bag. I'm going to tell you to just go shake it out and go back to sleep. So yeah, you can just learn from the consequences yourself.

Kristen: 19:20

Like nature takes care of it at wilderness therapy, so

Maddi: 19:23

yeah,

Kristen: 19:24

yeah.

Maddi: 19:26

And then I feel like it gave the kids so much more confidence because they're making decisions for themselves. And they may not have been in a situation before where they made as many decisions for themselves. And so it was kind of cool to just watch them become more and more confident in their abilities to be a feral child. Also just their abilities in general, like to communicate their abilities, to just feel safe in their own surroundings and that they recognize that they created that for themselves, which that's really cool.

Kristen: 20:02

That's cool. I feel like it's a very, yeah, it seems like a very supportive confidence building. Like when I thought of it before, it seemed very like, I'm going to throw you in the wilderness. Good luck. You know, and I feel like there's an element of that, but it's not, it just seems like it's a lot more just supportive than I was thinking, you know?

Maddi: 20:18

Yeah. It's like when you have a good group, it's like having group therapy every day because all the kids are working together to do what they're supposed to be doing. They want to become better. They want. for everyone in their group to work cohesively because that makes everyone's lives easier because if one person decides, Hey, I'm not going to do anything. Everyone else has to work harder to help make that person get stuff done. Like if not everyone collects firewood, that's a lot of firewood for one person to collect. So everyone can be warm. Or if one person chooses not to sleep correctly in sleep line, then it makes everyone sleep farther away so that everyone's a little bit more cold. No one's next to each other. So it's cool to see them make their own choices, but then as a group to recognize if I do my part, that makes life easier for everyone. And then take that back to their families and realize if I'm doing my part, okay. That's going to make everyone's life easier, including my own.

Kristen: 21:29

That's cool. Yeah. That's a really cool takeaway. And I know you didn't get to, you probably haven't been able to talk with, because I know you can't talk to them after they're out unless they're over 18, right?

Maddi: 21:40

Yeah, so, well, the rules when I was working, they've changed a tiny bit, I think, since I've worked Wilderness. where I couldn't talk to them for at least two years afterwards. after they had completed the program or until they turned 18. And my personal choice was just not to talk to them because I don't, and I would tell the kids this, I was like, you can contact me. I definitely a hundred percent will not talk to you until you are 18 because I'm not going to talk to minors. So they knew for sure I wouldn't talk to them until they turned 18. It didn't matter if it was more than two years. But also I just didn't want them to go back to the place. that made them get there. I'm like, I'm just a stepping stone for you. Step on me. Get to a better place. Like that is my goal for you. So I just want them to get to a better place, not necessarily look back and be like, that place was so good. I'm like, yeah, it was a good place to be, but you deserve better. You deserve to keep going and keep seeing better.

Kristen: 22:52

So you didn't always get to see like how things worked out later on in their life for like kind of the longterm. Yeah. Uh, results, I guess.

Maddi: 23:02

Yeah. A couple of the kids, I do know kind of what happened because I had other co staff that talked to them. And one of the girls that I actually was from my group went to the residential treatment center that I used to work at. And so my old staff there would send me updates about her and be like, she's doing so good. And she was fabulous. I loved her. Yeah. Yeah.

Kristen: 23:25

Yeah. And the age range, what was, it was typically, I mean, they're teens, but like, what was a typical age range?

Maddi: 23:32

So the ages that we worked with were 13 to 17. And then if you turned 18, you kind of just age out. But the majority of kids were 14 to probably 16.

Kristen: 23:48

What was, like, a big takeaway for you from doing this, like, overall?

Maddi: 23:56

I think the biggest takeaway for me was how, how much people can change, like, negative, positive, mostly positive, but how much people can change and how much little things truly affect people. Because I could say something off comment to a kid and just be like, Oh, I love you. And weeks later, I would see that kid again and be like, you are literally my favorite human. And I just needed you to say I love you that one day and you did. And it was everything I needed. And I'm like, I remember saying this to you. So, so like little things like that, like how much just the little things that we do can impact those around us. Yeah, I think that's my biggest takeaway.

Kristen: 24:53

Yeah, I feel like teens are so like, they're so sensitive and they're so little and you know, I feel like it does mean a lot to them, but they don't show it as much. But I think we're like that on the inside, even as adults where it's like, I just need someone to.

Maddi: 25:07

Yeah, they're just so soft and cute, but they're like cactus on the outside.

Kristen: 25:13

It's like, I feel like it's very it's probably more dramatic. seeing that through them. But, it's like, it applies to all of us. Right. So if you were a parent, would you send your child to wilderness therapy and are there certain traumas or, issues kids are dealing with where it's more effective to go or less, you know, you might send them some to a different type of therapy.

Maddi: 25:38

Yeah. I think case by case. I would do it, maybe. Like, kids have a lot of trauma from being sent away from their family, even if they don't like the family situation. So no matter what happens, I think As a parent, I would just take that into consideration, because kids feel so, hurt over being kicked out of their family, and that's kind of how it feels when they get sent away, is that they've done something so wrong that their family no longer wants them, and so that's a hard thing to deal with. thing to work through. So I think you would have to weigh out the benefits versus the consequences because sometimes no matter how hard you work in therapy, after sending that kid away, that kid's still going to resent the fact that you sent them away. And so that's a hard thing to work through. So I don't know, it would depend on the situation. Definitely in cases Where the kids had been struggling with drug addictions. Definitely that worked way better for them because to be taken out of that situation was more helpful, than it was harmful because they knew that their parents loved them, wanted them, but because they kept making choices that put their lives in danger or them physically in danger, that it was safer for them to go to a place. other than home. So I think in cases like that, it's way more beneficial. Or I had a few cases where kids had suicidal ideation or had attempted to commit suicide and their parents had a really hard time dealing with that and feeling like they couldn't handle that situation. And so in those kinds of situations, it was definitely more beneficial for that poor kid to be sent away from their family to a place. where they could feel safe, both the parents and the kid. So it's just kind of weighing your options and realizing, are the benefits of my kid not being with me outweighing the negative of maybe my kid resenting me for sending them away? So like, there's pros and cons to all of it. The majority of the time, I think if you can work it out with a therapist, go to family therapy, get your kid. A therapist that they can vent to that doesn't have to be like your friend, like send your kid to therapy and let them vent about you cause they'll feel better coming home and being like, ah, someone understands why I'm angry with my mom. She won't let me play the X Box or whatever. And so I think you should try to keep your family together if you can, because there's trauma that comes for both sides, for parents and for kids, by sending your kid away.

Kristen: 29:02

Yeah because I was talking to somebody and they were like, isn't that kind of a controversial therapy? Like, I don't know Acting like, like, maybe it's dangerous or it's traumatic, like it causes trauma and I was like, oh, I don't know. Yeah, so like

Maddi: 29:19

recently, recently, especially in Utah, because Utah has a lot of, uh, therapeutic programs. There's been a lot of lawsuits that have come through for wilderness programs, for residential treatment centers. And a lot of it is there, there's just not enough good staff for a lot of these programs. And I was lucky enough to have like fantastic co workers And so a lot of it is a fine line of finding good people to help take care of these kids who are in a vulnerable place. And so sometimes that works really well. Sometimes you're just out in the wild. So like you can't force a kid to drink water and they get dehydrated. Yeah. a scary place to be. And yeah, that is on the adult, but also these are teenagers. So like, there are, there's a lot of controversy and I understand why there is, because they can be put into dangerous situations. They can get bit by a snake. They get like different things can happen in wilderness therapy and different things can happen In residential treatment and definitely people should take that into consideration when they're sending these like cute little kids. They may be little monsters at the time, you love your kids, so you're trying to do what's best for them. So definitely do research. Research a bunch. If you ever, anyone ever contemplates going to a treatment center as an adult, as a child. Research a lot, like know what you're doing before you go into that situation or before you put someone else in that situation.

Kristen: 31:12

So I don't really think I thought about like this type of therapy for adults. Like, yeah. What do you know about that? I'm just curious because I know you've worked with teens, but like, yeah. I don't know if you know anything about the adult side.

Maddi: 31:26

Yeah. So it's actually, so for adults I feel like it's not as common because as an adult, you're paying for it yourself if your insurance doesn't cover it. Which a lot of insurances don't and usually it's for a couple months, and so you have to either quit your job or, on some level, hope that your job will allow you to go on leave so that you can work through these programs. But like, yeah, adult programs do about the same thing. They're usually tailored more to addiction recovery, but a lot of addiction recovery is adults just trying to self medicate. Like at least that's what my experience is and my experience talking to...'cause one of my favorite co staff that I worked with. He had actually done an adult program before he had come back and decided to work. In wilderness therapy, and so that was super cool to talk to him about it because as I like go off and do other things in my life, I can recognize how much of alcoholism or using drugs recreationally or non recreationally illegally is really just adults Trying to self medicate for past traumas or mental health problems that go kind of unnoticed or untreated. So, that's why I think most adult programs are tailored for recovery from addictions.

Kristen: 32:56

That makes sense. That's kind of what I would have guessed, but yeah. Yeah. Um, one more. Well, maybe two more questions I want to know because I'm sure like working with teens and just being out there. You have some kind of funny stories and I'm like, to lighten the mood. What were there any funny, memorable, impactful. stories while you were out there?

Maddi: 33:19

I have so many. One of my favorite things is how many kids, I grew up in the West. I know what sagebrush is. And I assume most people do, but they don't. So I would say, this is sage. And some of the kids in their mind would associate sage with a seasoning that you put on your food. And so they would go and pick sagebrush. And then sprinkle it on their food. And it's edible like you can it doesn't taste good, but they can do it. And so like I never Like I told them that it was not the sage that they ate out of their garden or that they would buy at the store But some of them chose to continue to eat it I did not stop I said this is not the sage that you think it is. I had a group of girls that enjoyed face masks And so we would find places to collect clay and they would mix the clay with charcoal from our campfires and do face masks, which we don't have mirrors out there. So like, this was like monkeys, they would sit across from each other, put it on each other's faces. Then they would try and wash it off themselves. And it's just like this cakey clay charcoal mix with like chunks. And so that was delightful. 10 out of 10 recommend. Homemade face masks are always a win. Yeah, I let them do it to me one time. And it was awful. And after that, I said, I can teach you how to make it better. But I don't want to do it. So we did that. We did a lot of crafts like I loved crafting. with them. So I had one kid that had never sewn before, like, with a needle, and we did a lot of projects with leather, and this kid really loved horror movies. And so they said, can you teach me how to make a mask? And so for two weeks, the two weeks I was with this kid, we worked on making them a leather mask. for their face. I'm like, this is horror of all horrors, but also it's so much fun. And we would try it on at different stages and then walk around camp with it, especially if the therapist was about to come. And I thought it was the most delightful thing. We just did a lot of crazy things. I taught them how to make Brigham tea and pine tea, and then they thought we could have tea with other things, and so then we had to cut back on the tea.

Kristen: 36:10

Yeah, it was just a lot of fun.

Maddi: 36:15

Yeah. Like maybe. Maybe it shouldn't have been as fun as it was, but I enjoyed it. And they would just do shenanigans and I would say this is delightful. And some of my co staff would be like, this is barely organized chaos. That's what I do well at. It's organized chaos. I was gonna say, this is perfect for you. You're like, one of the, kind of one of the kids, but not that you're like, you know. Yeah. The good boundaries, but, but yeah. Yeah. That's awesome. That's so fun, Maddie. Yeah. I have a lot of fun.

Kristen: 36:55

Yeah. I was gonna ask you as one last question, do you have a favorite book or resource or modality that you want to share that might help people or something to look up or just something that you love?

Maddi: 37:07

Yeah we've read a lot of books out there. That was one of the things that was like our entertainment. But my favorite book that is vaguely therapeutic is Man's Search for Meaning. I read it for the first time in middle school. Yeah, in middle school. Then I read it in high school and then I read it in college and it's just, been a life altering book for me. It's about this psychologist who was Jewish and went through the Holocaust and he lived through a concentration camp and just his perspective on the world and like humanity helped me change my thought processes and helped me become more positive and realizing that I have so much more control of my life than maybe I thought I did. And so it's just a good book to give you perspective on your own emotions, on how you can set goals and how you can work towards becoming a better person. I think also too, like setting goals that makes life so much easier. So just however that looks for people, like, Going for a walk daily. And that's a goal or just making their bed, something little to like huge things, like going back to school. saving for a house preparing for like having kids, like just huge life decisions, setting goals for those and making it happen. Cause when you set goals, you're able to see the future better and able to work towards something. And that helps keep your mindset. positive because you're working towards a positive goal. And so I think setting goals is super important. And I don't know, man search for meaning was just very good for my life. It's a good book. Yeah.

Kristen: 39:08

Yeah. Oh, I love that. And what you were saying about, like, I feel like feeling out of control is kind of the, the plight of the teenager. It's like the, yeah, the big struggle of every teenager and realizing that you can like, that there are things you have control over. You know, and setting goals and, you know, and even as an adult, like we just, it's like something you learn in a big way as a teenager, hopefully, but as an adult, you have to kind of keep learning it. And so I'm like, that goes very well.

Maddi: 39:45

Yeah. So set goals. It makes life easier.

Kristen: 39:48

Yeah. Well, awesome. Well, thank you so much, Maddie. Thanks for sharing your, your insights and your wisdom and your lessons from the trail or whatever. Yeah.

Maddi: 40:01

Yeah. Thanks for having me, Kristen. I love your face and I miss you so much.

Kristen: 40:07

Likewise. Yeah, I feel like you're just such a joyful person and you live life on your own terms and I just think we could all take a lesson from the book of Maddi, like on just being happy and content and having good boundaries and anyway, I just think you're great. So thanks for being you and setting a good example for everyone.

Maddi: 40:29

I appreciate you so much. I feel like I came to you when we became first became roommates and I was like this little broken child and then I lived with you and I feel like so much more content and peaceful and it's all to do with you and how peaceful and delightful you are.

Kristen: 40:45

Aw, thanks. It was the same for me. Like that was a very inspired meeting. So yeah. So thanks. Well, love you, love you, and yeah, I guess we'll wrap it up.

41:01

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