Wholly Empowered
Together we will explore all things holistic healing and how the physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual are all interconnected. This is a cozy space where different views are safe to be explored. Where we get to open our vision and allow light to shine through so we can expand our health, wellness, and awareness. In this podcast we'll be discussing everything from nutrition to massage, cognitive therapy to spiritual healing, and physical fitness to mental strength. Get ready!
Wholly Empowered
11. All About Ketamine Therapy - with Carly Davis
If you've ever been curious about using ketamine as part of your healing process this episode is for you. Carly Davis is a clinical social worker who has had some amazing experiences utilizing ketamine to help her heal from C-PTSD and other traumas. In this episode we get to dive into all the questions about what it is, how it works, when to use it or not use it, and what it can do for you. I'm amazed at how much she's been able to evolve and make progress even in those stuck phases of healing. Hoping this episode helps you find the right treatment options for you.
You can reach Carly via email at carly.davis.sw@gmail.com if you have any questions.
Recommended Links from the episode:
For ketamine treatment check out Better U:
https://www.betterucare.com/
Books:
The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk:
https://www.amazon.com/Body-Keeps-Score-Healing-Trauma/dp/0143127748/ref=sr_1_1?adgrpid=1343604016953452&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.-HfwhfcCzO3-23Js48DRcACP_nj18JDlUrDtPV26HLo3WBqQJeo1QmHOqOqfgAhpfcp2bBa_MKsd4H3NjfbqBZMw8BizrrBUTfbwDL5mpTya7sRW3i1bVDtM84fNY_-H_4Ff6Uto0F-OiHfn-j159P1bSpGuXnr4Mmziujfzxlv7XhQR8s4fzEE7i59I-S37rmvDY7n43vV7oTLCPetCNdAVlfMNohVPoLaqY_Wh6-A.fnBF2_ZlDuZKUl5tLGPG4gr6T92RbdbhFJywbqY1z7E&dib_tag=se&hvadid=83975474870931&hvbmt=be&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=95438&hvnetw=o&hvqmt=e&hvtargid=kwd-83975762833736%3Aloc-190&hydadcr=22566_13494478&keywords=%E2%80%9Cthe+body+keeps+the+score%E2%80%9D&mcid=a78d35078aa8361c901bbeb4d5e33cb2&msclkid=bef423cace98101118604bcb769a49cd&qid=1744943119&sr=8-1
The Happiness Trap by Russ Harris:
https://www.amazon.com/Happiness-Trap-Struggling-Start-Living/dp/1590305841
No Bad Parts by Richard Schwartz:
https://www.amazon.com/No-Bad-Parts-Restoring-Wholeness/dp/1683646681/ref=sr_1_1?adgrpid=1334808158994292&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.bFZwBVwPt1uHdKoVtwf9Bdsfq2RA2u5ByhfjX4eJXhjJpJpSuRbRchf5etidCSI1O2-3_WRKubcfIwJRttmjyUZgjNKQk1rGgYt7cqycZJyC8u9rVx-JBLxUk2DMVKUFeroTM6eURIu2qYa43MMG3a7u6PFEtGonrTnSgw7_KoG-flBuE-8xozfcjz_U_w6PKs_DtV_MWcFNZV9QvCHHr9rDyq-tELzvwxTc-FNgqXM.jnU9Ty3FU0X6QeLEsPtNqrfB_Mb3cINiJx8mwdEc6Es&dib_tag=se&hvadid=83425869654498&hvbmt=be&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=95438&hvnetw=o&hvqmt=e&hvtargid=kwd-83426195170526%3Aloc-190&hydadcr=9158_13780337&keywords=no+bad+parts+by+richard+schwartz&mcid=546848fbffd13a71ad0359183e0ede16&qid=1744943258&sr=8-1
I am Kristen Russell, and this is the Holy Empowered Podcast where we dive into all things holistic healing and open our minds, hearts, and paradigms to new ideas so we can live our most empowered, healthy, joyful lives.
Kristen:Welcome to Wholly Empowered. I'm Kristen Russell. And today we get to talk to Carly Davis, who is a clinical social worker and has done a lot of work with ketamine, so we get to hear all about it. Carly, welcome. Thank you. Do you wanna tell us? Yeah. Do you wanna tell us a little bit about you, your background how you got here?
Carly:Yeah, and I hope I don't blab around too much, but if I do, then you can tell me.'cause I'm very passionate about trauma treatment in general and ketamine and all these kinds of things. So just tell me if I'm going on too long, but, so basically before in, in the year 2018. I was having my own like PTSD symptoms and trauma from a bad relationship and some other things. And I was meeting a lot of other women that were in the same position. And a lot of them had never gotten therapy before being in that group or still hadn't gotten therapy and they had no idea how to deal with their symptoms. It was taking over their lives, like bad depression, anxiety. lots of times we think about like dreams and things like, or nightmares and things like that. But you know, those other things like preoccupation with the trauma and like your nervous system being on edge all the time trying to protect you. So having anxiety and depression can be bigger symptoms that people experience with trauma as well. So I met a lot of people that were experiencing that and just struggling with getting relief. Some that were even seeing therapists and struggling. So I decided to get my master's in social work so I could become a therapist and understand more how to help myself and how to help these other people that I was meeting. Yeah, and I just kind of became obsessed with that still obsessed with it and just kind of learn as much as I could. So I just to kind of give a little bit of background of like my experience with treating trauma and things like that, so you know, that I sort of know what I'm talking about. So I did my internship, my first year internship. They're both eight months. I did with severely mentally ill and inpatient. And then I worked at a domestic violence shelter my second year with women with trauma, or males with trauma as well. But I worked mostly with women. And we did like community outreach as well. And I learned, you know, the basics of how to treat trauma, trauma-informed care, different interventions that I can talk about later. Yeah, just a general training in trauma and did a lot of like internal family systems learned a lot of ACT was getting my own therapy and doing these same things, CBT EMDR, some of the very like basic like super common trauma treatments, like kind of the best that we had at the time and was getting progress, but getting slow progress myself and seeing slow progress with others. And so, that's kind of why I was interested in talking with you about ketamine as well.'cause I've just seen a lot of difference with people and currently right now I'm taking a break and been doing a lot of ketamine treatments myself and getting a lot of benefits. So just really excited to talk about it.
Kristen:So cool. Yeah. Let's dive in to just like, basics of ketamine. What is it, how does it work in your brain? I know it's kind of a, I didn't realize it was kind of controversial a little bit. Like, it's kind of a it's kind of an unknown, I feel like, for a lot of people where it seems like it might be a psychedelic or it's, but it's like a prescribed drug and it's kind of this mystery in a lot of ways. So just wanna unpack that a little bit.
Carly:Yeah. And there's a lot to unpack with it. So, I mean, I would say one of the barriers that make it so people aren't able to access it, one of the biggest things if people even want to access it is price. And so I feel like a lot of people don't know. A lot about it because it's not even within their price range and it's not done. It's getting a lot more common. There's a lot of like ketamine clinics that are popping up. But as far as like, you know, the controversial, other controversial aspects that makes it so people don't know as much about it. Along with price, there's definitely like a lot of stigma, I would say, and fear. So I'll kind of describe like what ketamine is and what it does and like, why there shouldn't be as much fear. So it's a, it's an anesthetic originally used as anesthetic and then they were doing some studies and found that it was helpful with people with depression. And so they started using it for depression. But the studies were coming out slow, like the, you know, just'cause there is a lot of like. Research that needs to be done before they use it with people. And so I think it was in early two thousands when they started doing more of the studies. And basically what it does is it's a, I looked this up before because I didn't know the specific science of it, but it's an NMDR receptor agonist. So what it does is it blocks glutamate from being taken into the neurons. So instead of being taken in, it's being able to be used between the connections between the neurons. And so what that does is that gives a greater connection to other, like new learning and like flexibility and being able to see past the traumatic memories and experiences and things like that. And that's one of the biggest things with trauma is you have these traumatic experiences and your fight flight or freeze or fawn area in your brain, the amygdala. Holds these memories of these traumatic experiences and wants to stick to those memories because survival is key for us. So the most important thing in our, you know, for our brain is survival. Like we gotta stay alive. And so normally in a situation where like you'd see a bear or something like that, like it would store that memory and you would have those physiological experiences and it would say, okay, anything that is big and hairy and has these sharp white teeth, like we need to stay away from that. Anything that looks like that. So sometimes kids are scared of dogs or even, you know, small animals because that's the natural instinct. What happens with trauma is that you can be in a dangerous situation, but then you, even when you get out of the dangerous situation, your brain still stored those memories and saying, okay. Anything that looks like this, like, you know, you know, whether it's like, okay, my trauma was with a male, or it was with a female. Anyone that's male, or anyone that's female is a danger, or anyone that tries to get close to me or anyone that, just anything that's associated with it all. And so it becomes super crippling and people have a hard time having relationships. They have a hard time even understanding what's happening and not feeling like they're constantly in danger, even when they're out of the dangerous situation. And so it very, it limits their wellbeing a lot. And so what it does, the glutamate in the brain, having that extra glutamate between connections then takes. Your brain's ability to kind of stretch out from the traumatic memories and go to new learning and new experiences and making new memories. So, okay, maybe this male was dangerous to me, but not all males are, or things like that where it starts to get more flexible so you can start to have relationships with others and start to make sense of things and live a more whole life and not be crippled with those you know, anxiety and depression and triggers all the time. So I hope I answered everything you said and not more than what you asked.
Kristen:Totally fine if you did. I kind of threw a lot of things at you all at once. So Okay, so we're in Utah and if you want to get a prescription in, because it's, is it, it's state to state, is that
Carly:right or So? I am not as familiar with that. I did see it's state to state, but it is approved by the FDA to treat treatment resistant depression and pain. So it's legal. So, I don't know, it's like state by state. There may be some different regulations on like how you need to get prescribed or things like that, but it is approved by the FDA, so you should be able to, you know, get it wherever you're at. And I know that if there's limited, like clinics, if you want to go to a clinic, like the actual clinics that are around they're more rare. They're becoming more popular, but it's not, you know, you're not gonna get one in every city. And so if you can come, go to different states and get treated if you need to. But the reason why I'm so excited to talk about it now, and I am not like, you know, paid advertiser, I don't get any benefits. I'm not associated with any of these companies or anything. But you can now do it online. You can go and meet with a psychiatrist online. With a couple of different companies, and you need to be really careful which companies you use because they can, you know, use other substances and not get like a pure or safe product. So I have a couple of websites that I know that are safe and one that I've used myself that is like the most affordable that I've found. So you can meet with psychiatrists online or you can meet with a psychiatrist in person or your doctor and they can prescribe you either a spray, which is considered the least effective because you spray it and then you get the highest effects when you get the spray. And then it kind of, you know, obviously it goes down as the, leaves your system pretty quick. And then there's the IV that you can go and do in a ketamine clinic and sometimes they have a therapist's office. Therapists will be trained to administer the ketamine. So you can do that in an office and you can have the therapist present or you can have a medical professional present and you can have someone guiding you through it. If you do it online, you can also have a guide. And now they have the pills. So the pills is what you would get if you went online and you can meet with a psychiatrist. They have a visit that is included in the price, so you can meet with psychiatrists online and get it delivered to your house. Or if you feel uncomfortable doing it from home, like a lot of people. I think I would've felt uncomfortable starting that way. You can go and do even just one if you wanna try it in a ketamine clinic, and they will have, they can have a psychiatrist or medical professional there to like guide you through it if you're really nervous about it. And then with the online as well, they have someone that can sit with you while you're doing your session from home. So they'll sit with you virtually and yeah.
Kristen:Okay. When you go to a clinic, is it always an IV or do they do different forms?
Carly:So, at the clinic, I know they, they do iv, they do the spray. You can do the spray there and have someone sit with you. And I think that some of them do the pills there as well, but it's still gonna be more expensive than if you get the pills online.
Kristen:Is ketamine like a guided experience? Like do you need someone to guide you through or would you, do you need to guide yourself or do you just kind of let the ketamine do its thing? Or how does that
Carly:work? I honestly think that depends on the person and kind of where you're at with your healing and kind of your experiences. I would say if you haven't been to therapy and you haven't developed some coping skills, I would not do it without having a guide. And even that being said, I would not go into it without getting therapy and things first, because you need to be able to ground yourself and because it is dissociative, so you do, it's like an out-of-body experience, so you're not. You can get to a point where you're not aware of where you're at and you're just, you know, seeing images or having thoughts that are related to, you know, your trauma or, you know, heavy things that you're trying to work through. And so you wanna be able to have some grounding tools or someone there to help ground you, because if you're not able to ground yourself, then that's when it gets to be an unhelpful experience. So you, but you definitely don't have to have someone there. I don't have, I've never had anyone there, but I've gotten a lot of therapy beforehand and I have a lot of coping tools and things like that, so I never have anyone. But I definitely write down my experiences afterwards, use my coping skills during it, and then I meet with a therapist later and process, you know, what I've seen and gotten from it. And it, it helps if you do it within the next couple days after the session when the glutamate is still like really high concentration in your brain. It sticks more.
Kristen:Okay. So definitely a supplemental or like a, something you do with therapy.
Carly:Yeah. Yeah.
Kristen:And it's kind of a psychedelic, right? Like you said, it's kind of an out of body experience. I know sometimes people get nervous about it for that reason. They kind of associate it and it seems scary. And so,
Carly:yeah. And I was definitely scared about that before I started it. The difference I would say,'cause I know people that have done, they now are doing studies with mushrooms that has a similar effect. It's a different like, mechanism in your brain, but it's a similar effect. But mushroom seems to be a little bit more of the, you know, kind of like funky imagery, but it's still tied to. What you need to, it's still tied to logical things that you're processing. It kind of shows you what you're going through, through imagery. And ketamine is similar. Like you'll see images of, you know, that kind of describe new thought processes or ways to see things, your trauma and experiences in a different way or people in a different way. But it's very like gentle and it's not like you're not seeing weird stuff that doesn't make sense. Like you're not seeing like, you know, that weird, like Winnie the Pooh nightmare, heffalump thing kind of stuff. Like, it's not random at all. It's very like, oftentimes it's really beautiful imagery and it's stuff that makes sense. It's logical. It's stuff that you've already seen before, not like creepy, weird stuff that, you know, is just disturbing. It doesn't make sense. You're having, you're processing things while you're in the ketamine and then your brain continues to be able to process things better after the ketamine.
Kristen:Do you feel like you need to be in a good, kind of a good head space when you start the ketamine? Like could you have a bad experience potentially, or,
Carly:yes you can. And I can't say this like works for everyone because I'm not everyone, but the only times that I've had bad experiences was when I had a headache or a migraine. I have never come back from having a headache before I start the treatment or a migraine and been able to get through it while I'm in the ketamine and have like mostly positive experience so that it kind of just confusing. Like you can't think straight and so you don't, it can feel more random. So I never do it if I have any kind of a headache. And I'll take medication like, you know, four hours before just to make sure that I don't have a headache. And you can take ibuprofen, like I'll take Excedrin Migraine, things like that, so you can take that stuff. But it's supposed to be like a few hours before. Then the other thing is having a too high of a dose and because it's still new, I found that, you know, a lot and a lot of the clinics that are, you know, providing like the IV ketamine treatments and things like that, they're not, the people that are giving you the dose are not mental professionals, mental health professionals, and even the psychiatrists maybe don't have specific training and trauma, and so they want to keep upping your dose. But really with any kind of trauma healing, they say slower is faster. So you don't wanna put your nervous system in too high of a panic because then you're just retraumatizing yourself. You're putting your brain back in a situation that felt scary, but you don't it's, it's so heightened that you can't ground yourself. You can't, you just feel like you're back in that situation. And I've had that with higher doses. So I've had them push for higher doses, even like five units more, and I'll have a bad experience and then I went right back down and have a great experience. So I stay I'm pretty low. I'm at 60 units and I have stayed at that dose for the three years that I've been doing it. And I get amazing results every time. So start slow. It's better safe than sorry, like you wanna heal from this stuff, but you will get amazing healing in one session and you can get negative effects if you go, you know, too high. So start low if you have any question, like just stay low because I think a lot of people, and a lot of people I've known who I know could really benefit from ketamine that haven't gotten a lot of help from other, treatments for trauma that have some pretty severe trauma. They just stopped doing it because they kept getting pushed to go higher and it was a bad experience. Whereas, you know. Which I had consistently at a higher dose. If I stay lower, I have a great experience every single time, except for if I have a headache.
Kristen:Wanna talk about the, I know it's kind of a spiritual, I feel like anything in that realm is, it's sort of a spiritual enhancer or like, it opens things up and I feel like that can be good or bad. It depends. But I wanted to know if you'd had any cool experiences where you, like your higher power or like ancestors or something came and helped you or you know, just thoughts on that. Just that whole part of it.
Carly:Yeah, 100%. So I, I'm religious, I'm Christian, so that has a filter on, you know, my experiences with it. But I think that's one of the reasons why it can be controversial for people that are religious is maybe they think that like, okay I'm turning to this like psychedelic drug rather than like, God in prayer or like scripture reading. Like people think, you know, you know, those are kind of the more go-to things that, you know, Christians will do and, but. Because it's, it also has a very strong physiological effect on your brain. Like it's going to give you benefits, whether you're spiritual or not. That's just kind of an added benefit if you are. And so like, it is a real physiological, scientific thing that's happening in your brain. So it's not, you know, just some, I don't know, like hippie dippy kind of alternative other than God or religion or something like that. Like it really has it's like any other drug. It's like a medication for, you know, diabetes or something like that. Like it is physiologically doing something powerful that's helping you heal. So with that aspect, like, you know, even if you're not spiritual it's extremely beneficial. And if you are spiritual, and sometimes people who aren't, like, I would say from what I've read, most people, including myself, have had very spiritual experiences where I think it's. Because you have that physiological effect. You know, in my opinion, He's able to speak to you in new ways that maybe when you're anxious or depressed or feeling traumatized, that you can't feel or you can't see. And he is kind of, you know, that physiological aspect is kind of taking away those barriers and that inhibition there and you're able to feel your trauma and you're able to feel the pain and, you know, experiencing it, but it's not overwhelming. You don't feel the physical pain very much because it's an anesthetic and then you're able to think about it in a more clear way, so it's not overwhelming. And in that experience, I mean, I've had some of the most. Enlightening and personal spiritual experiences that I have ever had besides one other experience. Outside of ketamine. And I, you'll hear this a lot, people will see, and I've seen ancestors, people that have passed on. This is really cool, but like specifically related to like trying to understand generational trauma, so where like my trauma comes from, I have seen ancestors and I've been able to understand more of where they're coming from and kind of where they're at now. I've been able to forgive easier, a lot easier. I remember when I first did my first session of ketamine, I was really struggling. I'd been stuck in this frozen, you know, anger, sadness place for about a year and a half. I'd made a lot of progress before that, but something happened where, you know, I just felt like gaslit confused about like. If I could trust my own feelings and experiences, that's a very common trauma symptom. And so I just could not logic it out no matter, you know, what E-M-D-R-I did and talk therapy, what, whatever intervention I did, like I did the top things and it was not working and I could not get out of it. And I was waking up for months crying almost every single morning. As soon as I woke up, I'd been dreaming about it, you know, vivid dreams. I would feel the anger and the sadness in my dreams is super strong and I could not sort through it. And I did one ketamine session, my first ketamine session, and I am not, you know, saying this to advertise anything, but I, after that experience, during the experience, I saw insights into the people that were involved in that and able to see things in a new way. I could not, before that made logical sense. It made spiritual sense like. It wasn't something I had to just convince myself was true because someone else was telling. It made total sense to me, even after I was out of the ketamine experience. And I never woke up again crying again. And I stopped ruminating about it and I could see things in a more nuanced way that was healthy. And so a lot of people have those kind of experiences and will feel, you know, self-love, you know, it's very like, gentle. It's very it's at the right pace and the right flow. Sometimes, you know, even therapists can push you a little too far or you push yourself too far. Like, it's very gentle. It's very powerful. Spiritually. Physically. And I was actually reading the other day that they have a lot of the same experiences that people have on ketamine. Similar to the documented experiences that people have had with near death experiences, and I have definitely found that to be the case, just very profound, like taking you back to the basics and you know, I could be totally super triggered, not able to get out of it, crying, depressed, do a ketamine session, and I feel immediately better. And that level stays there at like a, even if it comes down some, I stay at like a mediocre level and I be able to see things clearer and process things clearer. So it has immediate effect where a lot of the other stuff doesn't, it's very slow. Even EMDR, which is like kind of the next best thing that we have to treat trauma.
Kristen:That's so cool. Yeah. When you talk about it, I always, it reminds me a lot of like my experiences with energy work and so it just feels like you're, feels like you're cheating. Like it's like you just like jumped ahead and everything's just clear and it all makes sense and it's like better. And yeah, it just sounds like very similar results. Yeah.
Carly:It feels like magic. And I think that's why people are hesitant. I'm a very logical person and I'm a very I'm very picky about what therapists I see, you know, they have to be trained in trauma, like not just e mdr r they have, I'm very picky and I wanna know why the things work and you know, I know why this works. And then on top of it, I am having these, like, you know, that physiological experience and then I'm having the spiritual experience that just like escalates it to a whole new level where, you know, we have the best of trauma treatments. And like I was saying, you have EMDR was like the best. Then we had like talk therapy, narrative therapy, you know, all those other things I was talking about. And then I wanna say ketamine's like up here and you still need like talk therapy. You still need to process things. Like you still, those other things are still valuable, other aspects that touch different things and kind of solidify the ketamine as well. But I think people, it's like one of those things where it's it seems like it's too good to be true because we've been so slow in discovering ways that can really help people with trauma. Like people have suffered with PTSD. You know, you think about veterans, but other people as well that maybe you don't think about as much. Like people in abusive situations that turn to addictions, like, you know, or just trust issues and just things that last like a whole lifetime. And they can do so many different things and it can get better, but it's still so consuming. And you know, I've experienced that myself and this ketamine is like if I'm stuck, especially if I'm stuck or blocked. Ketamine is the only like psychological. Treatment that I found that can, that gets me unstuck every time. Even if it's just a little bit, it moves me forward and then it moves me forward the next time. And, you know, it's amazing.
Kristen:That's so encouraging to feel like there's, especially when you feel stuck like that and it's just like, nothing's working to know that there's something you can do. And I feel like there's so many options actually. Like the more I learn, the more modalities I learn about. I'm like, oh, there's ketamine, there's like energy work, there's just a lot of things that can get you unstuck, but it's, that's just really cool to hear about just your experiences and especially'cause you've worked with a lot of clients too.
Carly:So when I was working with women with trauma, I wasn't trained in like, you know. Injecting the Ketamine and doing that. So I'm not trained in that. I'm trained in EMDR. So my clients that I work with, were not doing ketamine, but I've read a lot of research on it of the benefits that people are having. And then I've known other people that've had the same benefits and they're, a lot of the people are, it's like they're just as excited as I am and they're just as like, mind blown as I am. And then there's like, you know, those other groups of people where it's like they had a bad experience. And I can't say like, yes, it's for everyone because I don't, I can't know that. But I have seen in myself, like I said, the higher dose and the headaches, if you can take care of those things, you can have a bad experience with those for sure. I've had those similar experiences that people that I know that are like, oh, it wasn't for me. Like I had a bad experience. Like it was just too much. Either they haven't gotten therapy, they don't have grounding, or it was too high of a dose. But if you get those things in check for me, and for a lot of other people it's good, but it's not necessarily for everyone. Like there's, that's why there's so many modalities, you know, and so many new things and even just spiritual things that can be really powerful on top of that. But the other thing that I would say too is, you know, you're meeting with a psychologist, they're gonna help you know if it's for you or not, and they're very careful. So another thing that they will not prescribe you ketamine for, you're not eligible, just so that you know, so you know, it's not disappointing, is if you have any kind of psychosis. So if you have like. Bipolar. And you know, if you get manic and you have psychosis during that time, like you can't take it because it can make things worse because it, you know, you're having this like, out-of-body experience you're not able to ground yourself as well. It can be scary, it can be, you know, cause more psychosis. And so if you have anything like that, you know, schizophrenia psycho affective disorder you know, like I said, you know, bipolar or depression with psychosis, anything like that, they, it can make things worse. But that's, as far as I know, like, you know, mental health wise, those are the only things that block it. And then there are some physical things that they wanna know, and I don't know all the details, but when you see the psychiatrist, they're very thorough. So they go through anything. But the main blocks that I've seen is anything like that. So that is frustrating for those people, but that's why there's other modalities as well. So
Kristen:is that if you have that diagnosis at all. Or is it just, if you're going through a like manic period, you wouldn't do it during that time?
Carly:I believe it's if you have it at all, because it can induce it even if you're not going through it at the time.
Kristen:Okay. I'm curious, I don't know if you'll know the answer to this, but if you have like a family history, like anybody in your family who's had psychosis, is it something you might wanna avoid or could it like bring it up in you?
Carly:So, I mean, I don't know specifically. I know that when I've gotten screened for it, they've never asked me about a family history. They asked me if I had that diagnosis. So I wanna say that you'd be okay. And it might have to do more with like your age, because lots of times those disorders come out in like early twenties and things like that. So it might have to do with age, but the psychiatrist would be the one that would know. I don't know like specific details about that. Okay.
Kristen:Yeah. Ask your psychiatrist. And then so as far as symptoms that it treats, I know it's really good, so anything with trauma, right?
Carly:So yeah, for me and for a lot of other people that's been like reported benefits, but currently the FDA approves it for treatment resistant depression and chronic pain, but they will prescribe you off-label for trauma or anxiety and people are seeing a lot of effects with that. Outside of that, I'm not sure what else, but I know that people see a lot of benefits with anxiety and trauma as well.
Kristen:Okay. So that's kind of when to take it or when to look into it if you're having those specific things. Is there anything else you wanted to discuss about this? Like anything you want people to know about taking ketamine or the experience or things to just be aware of?
Carly:Yeah. I mean one thing I would add is like, that I didn't mention is like those other things I was talking about, those other interventions help and they can have a similar effect, but they're a lot slower. So people see results a lot quicker and a lot deeper as well. So, I mean, that's huge when you're like having, you know, trauma symptoms, PTSD, CPTSD, stuff like that.
Kristen:Yeah. Okay. It just kind of speeds things up. Yeah. I would say
Carly:one other factor that I think people are like hesitant to try it sometimes in like religious spaces is the fact that it does have a reputation because people have used it illegally as a street drug recreational drug, but that's not its original use. People have just, you know, people can misuse pain medications that can do similar things. So, you know, it is legal, it is like, you know, tested and. My personal opinion, things, you know, even like, like I was saying, diabetes medication or cancer treatments, like, a lot of those things are very accepted. And I think those things are also inspired to help people like improve their quality of life. And I, my opinion is ketamine is the same way. And so using it in a way it's much smaller doses than people would use it as a street drug. So, you know, there is the addiction side too that people are scared of. And if, you know, really we have research people who use it recreationally daily and they're using it in high doses, can get addicted. So they can have withdrawals when they're not using it. But with treatment, with ketamine, with psychiatrist in proper way, you're never using it daily. In the beginning they will have you do, usually it's like six doses. Six sessions within a three to six week period. So it's like two a week or one a week. I did one a week and I saw like, you know, great benefits because I could process things, the session longer and things like that. So it just kind of depends on what you want. But then after that, it's like once a month maintenance. And I've never had any kind of like, you know, dependence or withdrawals with that frequency because it's still bringing up things that are difficult to process. And, you know, most of the time in the ketamine I'm having like a positive, like really, you know, powerful almost elated experience throughout there. But it, it does come up with, you know, I will have little times where I'll cry or when it brings up hard things. Like it can be painful, but it moves on pretty quick. And so with that frequency, you're not, you know, there, there's no. Research that shows any, like addiction or dependence in that way. But if you used it in the wrong way, like there definitely is, but that you're not gonna be using that when you have a provider that's like prescribing it to you in the right way and you know, you're using it that way. And then, on top of that, like, like I was saying, it is like any other drug that is prescribed, like it's, it may be used in unhealthy ways, but that's not the way that you'd be using it.
Kristen:Don't buy it on the street and you'll be
Carly:Yeah. Be okay.
Kristen:Yeah. Do you do you feel like it continues to be very effective as you view, like it doesn't the dose, I don't know. So I know some things kind of lose their effectiveness as the more you use them. Some drugs,
Carly:yeah. So they do say that like your body does get used to it, but once you get in the maintenance phase. Like you're doing it the once a month. I've never seen a decrease in the benefits that I get every session. So I think if you're using it more than that, you could, and maybe some people do, and it depends on the person, like, and if that's the case, if you're starting low, it's no problem to up it a little bit. Like if you're like, oh, I'm not getting very much. You can up it a little bit and you work with a psychiatrist and they, you know, especially with the company that I am, I used to do at IV and it was very expensive. It was$300 a session. So like, not affordable and most insurance companies will not pay for it. It's worth it to check and see if yours does, but most will not pay for it. And if it does, then it's about 60 a session. And when I'm using the ketamine, I mean, I'm paying like that amount, the pills, I'm paying about that amount or less from home. So. I forgot what you asked me.
Kristen:Just if it loses effectiveness as you
Carly:keep using it.
Kristen:Yeah.
Carly:So, you know, I haven't seen any like loss in effectiveness and even if you have to bump it up a little bit, then that's totally doable.
Kristen:Yeah. Is the IV like way more intense than the, like the dosage is still the same, right? Yes. But does the
Carly:form affect it? They will, they'll try to prescribe you a pill that's equal to the dose that you were getting with iv. And it's a little bit different because with the iv it's continuous. So with the pill it might prescribe you a little more because you'll get, so you'll get that bump and then it kind of like wanes off. But the dose that I'm at that is I'm having the equal experience that I do with the iv. I'm actually having longer time with the ketamine, you know, with that like extra glutamate in my brain. I'm having longer experiences and for me, I like it. Better doing it from home because I'm not interrupted by, okay, hey, like your session's over. Like, you know, we gotta get you outta the chair and you gotta get home.'cause the more time you have to just process afterwards and just sit with it, the better it'll stick and the more you'll get from it, the more you'll remember. So I like it better for that reason. And I don't have, I have a more powerful experience as long as I'm getting enough ketamine to have that similar, you know, dosing that I have with iv, I don't lose anything.
Kristen:So can you take us through what that looks like? So you take the dose and then it sounds like it gets intense and then you kind of slowly come out of it. Like how long does that take? And then you're kind of still processing, you said it was in your, it's kind of the gluten glutamines still doing its thing for like a couple days. Is that right?
Carly:Yeah. So. I'll kind of describe the process. So it like, takes away some of the like, unknown and fears. So you take a nausea like Zofran probably like 20 to 30 minutes before you take the ketamine and you know, I'll just lay down in my bed. You can sit if you want to. But I, the dose that I take is gets me like, you know, where I am, like completely dissociated from like, everything surrounding me within like 20, 30 minutes. But when you start, they will start you very slow, which is a good thing because you want to be able to ground yourself. And when they start you at that dose, like sometimes you won't even be dissociated as in like, you know, when at the higher doses you'll get so sleepy that you'll close your eyes and it's almost like you're having a dream. So I. Start slow. And then as you build your confidence with it, you can get to that point. And if I'm taking my prescribed regular dose that I would have with the iv, I am out, like I said, within like 30 minutes, I'm starting to just like lose track of what's around me. And then I close my eyes and I am, I'm out for about, I set an alarm. I have people in the house with me that will come and check on me as well, but I set an alarm. I'm out for about an hour, and then I, you know, I'm I can, I'm aware, but I can kind of close my eyes again and I'll go back and keep getting like amazing benefits. I'm a little more aware, but I'm still getting those benefits. And then after another, like 45 minutes I'm aware where I know where I'm at, like I can. You know that there's like a visual distortion where you kind of see tunnel vision when you're in ketamine, like that kind of starts to die down and I'm aware of the sounds around me and things like that. So, but then after that I can sit there and process for another hour plus and still be getting new info and remembering the things that I saw where I'm, and then capable to write them down and just continuing processing and like remembering it and recording it.
Kristen:Cool. And then do you kind of continue for, is it, I don't know, for a longer period of time, do things keep kind of coming to you or is it just sort of in that timeframe
Carly:Yeah. That you talked about. So you will like. You will have a higher concentration for like, for the next couple of days. So it's very powerful and in those next couple days is when you get the most out of it. If you can keep, you know, reminding yourself what you learn and keep thinking about it and processing it, it sticks longer. If you can do it within the first couple days, it has like really significant effects that way. Like you wanna keep thinking about it and processing it with a therapist or if you can't, like on your own reviewing like your notes and things like that. But it also has a longer term benefit through that next week. And then once you do the maintenance, you get those first six sessions they want to get in your system, get it going. Then once you get to the maintenance stages, it continues to have benefits throughout, like, you know, throughout that month, after you get those first maintenance sessions in. So like you continue to be able to think clearer and have more glutamate in your brain after those maintenance, after those first initial sessions and then during the maintenance.
Kristen:Do you feel like there's kind of a long-term effect of just you feel more self-aware and things are just clearer? Like over time you notice like, oh, I just, I'm just very self-aware now. Something.
Carly:Yeah, for sure. I mean, you still have to work at it and choose to think about and process of things, but even without me choosing to do it, I'll notice that, you know, I have these triggers where maybe I see a certain type of thing and every time my nervous system has gotten reactive and triggered and I, you know, feel unsafe, but now like, you know, I'll just glance at something and my mind will think a totally new thought. Like, oh, well, you know, that person might have this going on. And I feel like a little bit of empathy for them, or like for myself. Whereas in situations where I could never have done that before. So it does happen naturally. And also the more you process things, the more you get and the more it sticks. But it definitely starts happening naturally and like undoing some big triggers that you, for me, like I haven't been able to get progress on otherwise. And a lot of the people say the same thing.
Kristen:Yeah. Just kind of heals your brain, huh? Wow, that's awesome. All right, is there anything else you wanted to say before we wrap up?
Carly:Yeah. So like I said, like I'm not getting paid for any advertising or anything, but I did wanna mention because I was doing the IV only and I had to stop'cause I couldn't afford it. So like, you know, if you're doing the IV and you don't have insurance,$300 a month, that's a lot. Most people can't afford it. And so I had to stop and I had originally looked at a company called Mind Bloom. Where there were about, I think there were about a thousand for I think it was eight sessions and I couldn't afford, or like 1200 and I couldn't afford that. So I stopped looking at the online, but then when I was getting a lot of benefit and I was like, Hey, I need to work on my own, like, you know, trauma for a while, I looked up more ketamine companies online to see if I could get something more affordable. And I found a company called Better You, and that's the one I've been using. And they are so thorough. They're extremely supportive. They send me texts even when I don't reach out to them, like checking in on me how I'm doing. They have a, you know, like a psychiatrist, like I said, that you can meet with that will prescribe you. And then they have, you know, you can keep meeting with them, you can have a buddy with you online as you're doing the session. And then they also have a group where you can go and talk about your experience, which helps integrate it. Which is really helpful if you can't afford a therapy'cause therapy's really expensive. And so with that company, lemme go to word the pricing. So if you go to better you care.com, you can find the pricing. But it is, I can't find in my notes, but I know it's I got a Black Friday deal, so if it's Black Friday, like that's an ideal time to go. I got four sessions for, sorry, eight sessions for$500, but normally it's four sessions for about$500 and then eight sessions for about 900. So, but I've been able to stretch them and if you're starting out with a low dose, like I'm using a high dose much higher than someone's just starting with ketamine from home, they're gonna prescribe you a lot lower. So, I've been able to stretch it like one and a half, almost two times as much as they even told me. So I'm paying anywhere between like 45 to like$60 a session. So that's just something where that makes it a lot more accessible for people. And you know, when you're going through mental health stuff lots of times like, you know, you're not functioning super well, you're maybe not making as much money as you want. So I just want people to be aware of that website. And like I said, I'm not like paid to advertise it at all.
Kristen:Yeah. But, and one initial investment and then you have it for a while. I'm guessing it lasts for some time.
Carly:Yeah, I mean I had the eight sessions worth and I've been using it since November. And like I said, I take higher doses and sometimes I do it more frequently than, you know, once a month. And I'll process it with my therapist, like make sure that they're aware and things like that. And I don't do it more than, you know, once every two weeks, but you know, I have more time on my hands right now and I wouldn't recommend doing that like without talking to psychiatrist. Like, you know, you need to be very careful with it. But you can spread it quite a bit'cause I'm doing it, you know, a little more frequently and at a higher dose than starting. And I am still going and I still have more. So yeah it's ex extremely affordable, even more affordable than just talk therapy, which is crazy because it normally like the$300 a session, that's way more than therapy. That's like double. Yeah.
Kristen:Yeah, that's great.'cause so many things just aren't that accessible. And that's kind of one of the things I want to. Make people aware of on this podcast is just like what you can do with what you have and what is accessible and how to find things. Yeah. A different way. Maybe you're desperate. It's very
Carly:desperate situation when you're in, when something like that is taking over your life. It's very desperate situation and I, yeah, I have never found anything that is that, that effective and is that affordable?
Kristen:That's awesome. I ask every guest if they have any books that they love or just any recommendations for anything that might just help people kind of might, maybe outside of what we're talking about or maybe going along with it.
Carly:Yes. I have three books that I'm very obsessed with. These are the top three that I would recommend in the same like vein. So the Body Keeps a Score by Besser, Bessel VanDerKolk. He's like. The top trauma expert been doing it for like 60 plus years, like he's amazing. He, that book kinda explains like how trauma works in general. So if you wanna understand like why you're having certain reactions and things, that book can explain a lot. And then it also explains like why certain interventions work and a lot of different interventions that you can try'cause things work differently for different people. It doesn't mention Ketamine, I don't think, because that was before it came out. But it's a very good like basis book to like understand what's happening. And then the Happiness Trap by Russ Harris. It's about mindfulness, which is, you know, kind of the general treatment for trauma is you wanna notice when you're having the triggers and being able to sit with them rather than avoid the feelings, which is what we normally do because it's painful. Or maybe you were taught, you know. If you were abused or something like that, you're taught to ignore your own feelings and not trust them in order to survive. Or, you know, having anxiety or depression, they're very painful. So we avoid, or it's not socially acceptable. So you just try to like move on. This book talks about like the importance of sitting with our feelings and like tools to be able to sit with them and notice them.'cause if you can sit with your triggers, you know, this is the way we heal, whether it's through ketamine or other like trauma treatments. You sit with them, notice them, notice the feelings, notice the false beliefs that might be coming up that are related to it, and then being able to, you know, s change those false beliefs into more healthier beliefs, nuanced beliefs that help you to be able to interact in a safe situation rather than just stay closed off. And you know, your brain's still thinking you're in this dangerous situation. So that book is really good in describing the importance of mindfulness and like how to do that. Those are some basic skills that you really need to have going into Ketamine, I think, to be able to ground yourself and kind of accept what's coming up and let it move through. And then no bad parts is the last one. So it's by Richard Schwartz and he's the inventor of an intervention called internal Family Systems, which is not technically like just a trauma treatment, but it's, I found it to be really helpful with myself and then with clients where you're kind of understanding, you know, where your thoughts are coming from, like triggers or bad experiences and how your brain is trying to protect you. And having compassion with those, you know, those thoughts and those reactions rather than shaming them. It just helps you to sit with them more and being able to listen to them and kind of learn from them and react in a compassionate way, which is really necessary because if you've been, you know, traumatized or if you have anxiety and depression, there's a lot of stigma against it. So being able to like. Have compassion, like sit with it. It's very helpful.
Kristen:Yeah, those sound like great. Just precursor, get you ready, maybe more aware of yourself and what you're going through. Awesome. And we'll link everything that you've mentioned in the notes, just so everybody knows. And then if people want to like, reach out to, they have questions where can they reach you?
Carly:Yeah, and I guess we can put my email on the, in the comments as well, but yeah, so they can reach you in my email. It's carly davis dot sw@gmail.com and I usually check that I get alerts, so if you have any questions about like, you know, my personal experience about it or, you know, other things related to like trauma healing or, you know, wanting specific therapists for trauma healing. Resources about, you know, anything related to that, you know, or just want someone to like vent with and who gets it and, you know, just someone who understands like, more than welcome to email me.
Kristen:Awesome. Okay. Yeah, we'll definitely put that in the notes as well. And yeah, thank you so much, Carly. This is something I haven't tried most of the guests I've had on so far. I've, I have some kind of familiarity with what we're talking about and this is like totally new for me. So it's been really awesome to just talk to you about all the different aspects of ketamine. And I was kind of nervous, not nervous, I don't know, I was just trying to understand it better because it, it's, we talk about holistic things on this podcast and it is a pharmaceutical drug, right? And, but. It's the reason that I was like, oh we, this fits is'cause it's something where you work through it. I feel like it really levels up your ability to work through your stuff on a holistic level where you're getting to the root and so,
Carly:yeah.
Kristen:Yeah. So it's, yeah, you're getting
Carly:to the root quickly and, you know, you have that spiritual aspect that really helps and it's just not as well known and, or people don't want to try it. They're scared to try it.
Kristen:Yeah. Yeah. So I'm glad we could like, create some more awareness and just get some questions answered or maybe people didn't even know they had questions and here we go. So, me too. That's awesome. Yeah. Thank you so much.
Carly:Yeah. Thanks Kristen.
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