12. All About Finding Freedom From Porn - with Kyson Kidd

If you feel stuck in pornography and want to find a positive, empowering way out this episode is especially for you.

Our guest, Kyson Kidd is a men's coach and while he helps a lot of people with different problems, we mainly focus on how he helps people overcome unwanted porn habits.  I am stoked to be doing this episode with him because I think it is going to help so many people.

We discuss how we get stuck in this behavior, what patterns around beliefs and behavior he sees typically, and how to overcome them. Stick around to the end because Kyson walks us through some ways of thinking and techniques for feeling empowered so you can start your journey toward more wholeness whether your main issue is porn or another behavior or habit. It all applies! I learned so much and I know you will too! 

Kyson is accepting clients, so if you'd like to get in contact with Kyson we have some links below!

for coaching and courses:
www.kysonkidd.com/onlinecourses

For music therapy: 
www.kysonkidd.com/music

To follow on Instagram:
https://www.instagram.com/kysonkidd/

On spotify his music artist names are:
Kyson Kidd
Healer's Playlist
https://open.spotify.com/artist/5dzbnE7SuRVGiDKtlfj0zc

Transcript

0:00

I am Kristen Russell, and this is the Holy Empowered Podcast where we dive into all things holistic healing and open our minds, hearts, and paradigms to new ideas so we can live our most empowered, healthy, joyful lives.

Kristen: 0:16

hey guys, so today we get to talk with Kyson Kidd, and Kyson is a men's coach. He is a musician. He does a lot of cool things. But today we're probably gonna be talking mostly about his work that he does with men on, getting rid of unwanted porn habits. So, Kyson, do you wanna tell us a little bit more about you? What got you started in this, what you do?

Kyson: 0:40

Yeah, totally. I'll give you a summary, a little summary, and you can let me know what other questions you have. Basically, like many men, I, I even wanna say most men, I got pulled into pornography as a little kid, just kind of stumbled on it. Then you've got, you know, different experiences where friends will bring it up or, you know, all kinds of different things. And so it, it's a trap that I fell into pretty young, maybe like age eight or nine is when it first started. And then from there, you know, more heavily into my teens. And I, I feel like the classic, you know, I come from a. Christian background um, church of Jesus, Christ of Latter Day Saints. And so, you know, you've got like family patterns, you've got social patterns and culture, and then you've got like church culture there. And so I did what most people would do in that culture, which was like, you just try not to, you know, like willpower your way through it. Like stop, you know, tell yourself how bad it is or how bad you are, or, you know, visual there, there's like all these ideas, right? Like sing a song, sing a hymn, or read, read the scriptures or pray or like go try to do exercise. Or, my personal favorite was, I'm kind of being sarcastic, but it was like, think of, think of, you know, have a picture of your family and think of a picture of your family and how much they would be hurt if they knew what you were doing. And so a lot of that stuff was like pretty shame, you know, a lot of shame for at least the way I interpreted it was like, just shame yourself so bad that you stop and you know, it would work for like a week or a month or six months or even a year at one point, and then you just fall back in'cause nothing had changed. And so, later on, when I was about 25, 26, I had some good friends. It was like back to back. I feel like God just brought me people to ask me really hard questions. Like I had a friend that was like, Kyson, you ever, you ever considered that You might deal with a lot of shame. I was like, what is, like, what do you, what is that? You know, I've heard, I've heard that word, but I don't think I have that. And then, you know, I started having these like kind of awakenings of like, oh dude, I, I do have some, some issues going on. And I ended up getting into like yoga a little bit and then into the world of energy work and coaching and like eastern philosophy. And essentially it all leads to this moment of asking this question of what's beneath my pornography habit? What's underneath my shame? What's underneath, you know, whatever it is my, what's underneath my anxiety around dating and friendship and connecting with people. And so, you know, I'd say like there's all these different modalities or different, different tactics and things that you can go to. But I'd say the most core thing that I've found in my whole journey is all based on this question of what is beneath it? What's down in the roots? You know, if you picture a tree instead of what's in the branches, right? Like what's the fruit coming from it? What's actually deep beneath the surface in the roots? And so, as I started asking that question, you know, we can go into detail more later here, but just like from there I started asking that question. I started realizing that as I worked it in the roots or with the deeper issues I actually started to feel freedom instead of just like, I have to fight my way through it. I started to feel the temptation from pornography disappear. Or you know, like I remember, I remember the first time it literally disappeared all the way. I was like, what the heck? Like, it's the first time in my life where I'm not feeling tempted. And it was three months of freedom and I thought maybe that was gonna be it. And then as temptation came back up basically what I learned is that that just means there's something else deep in the roots to to address or to heal. And so, I started working through things for myself and then that kind of led me to working, helping other people work through similar things helping them figure out what's in the roots for them. And so I've been coaching full time for about. Let's see, what year is it? Maybe like seven to eight years is, it's been my main endeavor and it's just, it's been so fun. I'm always learning. I'm always growing. And then I love just getting to see my clients go from a place of like feeling stuck and feeling like a victim and like, I can never change. The best hope I have is just to like pretend, you know, or willpower through it, and then shifting out of that into freedom. And it's so fun to see the, the attention shift away from like, I need to stop pornography. And we actually shift over to like, how can I create a life that I actually love? And it's so cool to see that shift. Anyway, it's just been very rewarding and yeah. Did, did I, did I answer your question? I kind of forgot what you asked me.

Kristen: 5:33

Yeah, no, sorry. Just about you and how you got here and what you do. So yeah, but that's awesome because I feel like this is a, I'm so excited to talk about this because I feel like it's something that people don't, it, it's so enmeshed in shame and it's so like, difficult to talk about or feel any kind of hope. I feel like there's a lot of people that just feel very trapped. Yeah. So I'm, I'm, it's exciting to hear about someone who's had success with just, oh, we're finding like the deeper things here and we're working through it and. I can, you know, you can help other people, but

Kyson: 6:08

yeah. Thank you.

Kristen: 6:09

Yeah. Yeah. So as far as what was the process like, kind of, what things did you find that helped, or how did you get to where you are with coaching?

Kyson: 6:23

I think in a lot of ways I'd go back to like, just the simplicity of a great question from friends. You know,'cause I went my whole life, like I'd hear the word shame, but I never like internalized it. And so for me you know, those powerful inspired questions where you get to actually wrestle with what's in your heart, I, I think are just life changing. So, you know, there, there are other coaches that have different approaches, but for me that's, that's been the key is like, I'm looking for the question basically. Like, I know there's something in the roots. I know there's something underneath what's going on for me. What's the question to get me there? And so, you know, whatever that process looks like for people, like being prayerful or going to scriptures or talking with friends you trust there's something like every change I've ever had has been a result of asking a powerful question. And so, you know, I found different modalities that have helped me with that. I've, I've loved like yoga and meditation gives you a chance to sit and be quiet. I stumbled on emotion code, which is like an energy. Healing modality. Love that. And then from there I went to Healers Blueprint, which I know you're familiar with.

Kristen (2): 7:34

Mm. Yeah.

Kyson: 7:34

And Healers Blueprint to me felt like a, it felt like a library of questions. It's a hundred thousand different questions you can ask and try to like unravel what's going on down in the roots. So, yeah, I stumbled on that. Let me think what else is helpful. May, I mean that's the core of it. I'm trying to, there's gotta be, you know, beautiful perspectives and I'd say like questions and then also choosing to practice self-awareness. Like, what am I thinking? Why am I thinking it? Where did it start? You know, so over the years, and, and I do this every day, like it's a practice now to identify the way I'm thinking and why I'm thinking it. But over the years, some of the more impactful like breakthroughs there that I've had would be like recognizing like, it's so interesting how many thoughts you think without even noticing. I remember like hanging out with a friend and after I leave this house, I get in the car and like outta nowhere I hear this thought that's like, men are monsters. I. Whoa. Okay. Like, and what's interesting is as that thought popped in, I was like, you know, now that I think of it, that's a thought. I have thought many times, like that's just a thing that's in, it's, it's kind of a message we get from society and from who, you know, men are monsters. Men struggle with porn more than women. If there's a, you know, a crime or whatever, it's probably a man. You know, there's all this stuff. And so as I had that thought pop up, it was an opportunity to wrestle with, do I believe that or can I let that go and believe something else? And so I, I would start making like a list, maybe journaling. That's another thing to toss into your, like practices. Just lists and lists of like false beliefs. I found this one about myself, about this one, about men, this one about sexuality you know, this one about pornography, like since I struggle, I'm a bad person. You know, all these ideas and ways of thinking and, and just starting to unravel those and check in is like, is this really true or is this just the way I've been thinking about myself?

Kristen (2): 9:36

Yeah.

Kristen: 9:38

And so I know you do, I know you do group, group coaching and individual coaching. Can you tell us a little bit about what those look like? Like what does a session look like or, you know?

Kyson: 9:48

Yeah, yeah. Lately I have. Been leaning more towards individual. Like I'm not opposed to group, but when I've done I've, I've done group stuff and it's fun for like general teaching, I think. But as far as the getting to the deep roots, I feel like that's where individual is Awesome. So yeah, for me, I typically start, like, I give people a free consultation. Anytime someone is interested in talking with me then we get a feel for like, how self-aware are you? How much work, what have you tried, that's not working, you know, so I, I try to get a feel for where people are at. And then from there, really, I, I honestly feel like my first goal is like, I want to get you like two to three questions that you've never ever asked about yourself. That feeling of like, whoa, I have never thought of this. And so, that, that's essentially the goal of my sessions. That's like the very simplistic way to say it. Yeah. It's mostly just a lot of questions and a lot of, like, I'll, I'll ask questions about how you show up in relationships. How do you feel about your, you know, how's your self love doing? Like, a lot of self-evaluation. The cool thing that I find is that pornography is not, an isolated problem. Like most guys who struggle with it will tend to think that way. I remember thinking to myself often I'd be like, oh, porn is the only thing I really struggle with. Other than that I'm like, almost perfect, which is like so funny that I would talk to myself that way. And then as I learned, I was like, oh gosh, I've got so much stuff, you know, I've got a lot of things I'm doing that are weird. But basically what what's cool is if you have the right questions and the right perspective, basically everything you're doing will teach you why you're turning to porn to see if I can make sense of that. Like, the way you show up in relationships will teach you about the way you're showing up, you know, why you're escaping to porn the way you eat food. Whether it's like super indulgent or like, oh, there's never enough or scarcity, right? There's like, I'm afraid there won't be enough food for everybody. So I sacrifice it and give everyone else food first. Like, all the things you're doing can teach you about what's going on inside. And then we can kind of take that and look at like, oh, is that also why you turn to porn? Because there's not enough love, right? Or there's not enough women in the world, no one could ever really love you or you're not enough. So basically we just like explore everything and try to look at how is your life and your relationships trying to show you. Like, what is going on? Like it's trying to show you why you're turning to porn, why you're turning to other things. Does that make sense?

Kristen: 12:23

Yeah. Yeah. I think that's really fascinating. Like, I'm already like, oh, now I'm like thinking about, I don't know, just like other things. Like, it's like I feel like this would probably apply across the board to not just porn, you know, it's like,

Audio Only - All Participants: 12:36

yeah.

Kristen: 12:37

Probably all kinds of things, but totally. Yeah. It's really, that's, that's cool. And what, who, what's the main demographic you're working with? It sounds like it's probably

Kyson: 12:47

mostly men. Mostly Christian, but I do for sure work with people with different beliefs. Yeah, I'm very, like, I'm a coach, right? I'm not a therapist, so I have a little more like, flexibility in some ways. And then as a coach, like I try really hard, I don't put my morals on people, my values. It's like, you need to think this way. It's more about figuring out where you're at and what you want to create, and I help you step there. So yeah, I do a lot. I'd say mostly married men. But I've, I've worked with teens, occasionally I've worked with single men. And then, I mean, it's worth throwing out there. Like, I, I work, basically, I just try to work with whoever I feel called to work with, right? So if you've, if someone's listening and they're like, oh, I'm not sure. That's why there's that free consultation. Like, just can come hang out with me. So yeah.

Kristen: 13:38

Do you exclusively work with men or is, do you, have you ever worked with women?

Kyson: 13:42

I, I don't work with, with a lot of women who struggle with pornography. That's occasional, but I definitely work with women on other subjects. Kind of applying the same principle, right? Like, oh, you're struggling with this. What's in the roots beneath it for you? I'll help you resolve it. So yeah, I totally work with women as well. Oh,

Kristen: 13:58

cool. In working with single men versus married men, do you see any differences, especially with the, just like with the demographics you're working with around how they view themselves or how they view sexuality? Yeah. What do you notice there?

Kyson: 14:17

Yeah. Oh, such a, a good question. I think for single men, I don't know, like, it, it definitely depends on the person and their background, but for single men that come from like a church background, typically there's this, there's a lot of fear around sexuality. There's a lot of like, unknown. Like I think a lot of single men deal with like. So many conflicting thoughts around sexuality. Like, oh, sex is bad, but it's gonna be good later if I'm, you know, when I'm married. And then I, I honestly think that most, I'll say us, like most of us guys as, as we were single, there's this belief slash maybe a hope that like sex will save you. Can I say it that way? Like, you know, okay, I've gotta hold out for like finding a wife and then sex is okay. And then the hope is that like, then I'll be happy, then I'll feel validated, then I'll feel finally like, I'm loved. And what most men find is that that doesn't happen. They still are struggling with all this internal stuff and porn sticks around, you know, if they started porn before their marriage, which almost everyone I've worked with has like, pretty much everybody. It will almost always continue through until you resolve the root issues. So, yeah, I to, I totally see that attitude around sexuality though. Like, almost like, I hope it will save me or just one, you know? And then that's why like pornography becomes this like, replacement of like, maybe if I learn about sex or maybe if I fantasize, you know, maybe I could like find some resolution for the pain I feel internally. And, and it just doesn't, and it, so, so then when I work with married men there can be different attitudes. I'd say it ranges quite a bit once they're married. But I'd say that does that, that's the general thing I see across the board is that like, oh, I, you know, that satisfaction or that validation or that feeling of love is not there like I'd want it to be. What else would I say about married men? Oh man, there's so many things. There is an interesting pattern I see where most of the men, like, I don't know, is it okay if I talk about like, one of the underlying things I see?

Kristen (2): 16:40

Definitely. Yeah.

Kyson: 16:40

So, and, and I think it's connected to your question where basically every guy I've worked with who struggles with porn also. Deals with a lot of people pleasing and then a lot of like, feeling controlled in their relationships. So that one's interesting. I, I'm definitely not trying to put it, I'm not saying that the wife is controlling, but I'll tell, I'll say that that is the story, meaning the story in their heart and mind is like, oh, my wife is always telling me what to do. And if I, maybe if I do what she needs and wants, then I'll finally feel like she loves me. And then, you know, there's this like deficit living in deficit constantly. I need to like do more and get ahead of it. And then, oh dang, my wife is still sad. And so then like, then I feel, you know, then I feel weak or I feel like I'm not good enough or I feel rejected. And then that's where porn kind of comes in as like a false bandaid for that wound. So I'd say that's a dynamic I see quite a, quite a bit, not with every single one, but there's almost always some element of like, I feel like my wife dictates what I do. I can't say no, I have to say yes, and then I feel controlled. And then I think porn often acts as an outlet to either go get the validation you didn't get. I'm not saying the women are supposed to make you feel validated, but that's like the way it feels is like, oh, she's not, you know, I don't feel fully validated by her, so then I gotta go over here. Or it could be like, oh, I feel so controlled. Let me go lash out and. Act in a place where I can be in control. And it is not necessarily conscious, but that's like a lot of times when people say, Hey, I'm struggling with porn. One of my first questions is like, who do you feel controlled by? And it's usually like, oh, everybody my whole life. But especially, it's, especially women, unfortunately. So, yeah. I know. Let me, I'll pause there. You can throw me follow up questions on that if you have them.

Kristen: 18:40

Yeah, I feel like there's so many, there's so many like different things that I want, like, that I wanna talk about and that you have to talk about, and I'm just like, oh my gosh, where do we even, but I definitely wanna talk about the patterns that you see, but I don't know if there are like a lot more that we can talk about with that. But also I guess with the, like, married versus single, I think a lot of my audience is like a Christian or just like religious group and mm-hmm. Do you feel like these men have a healthy view of sexuality? Do you feel like it's, because I feel like sometimes we're, we're taught to respect sex, and we're taught to, you know, we wanna be like, hold it as sacred and then it, it can get a little muddy where it's like, well we're, we're making all these extreme, like, I don't wanna, no, I can't think about it, or I can't, you know, and it, and it gets very. We get wrapped up in this story of if I do X, Y, Z things, then I'm, I'm bad. You know? Yeah. Do you see that a lot like with, especially, especially single men, I guess, where it's like it gets warped.

Audio Only - All Participants: 19:53

Yes. For sure.

Kristen: 19:54

Like all of, all of their views around sexuality

Kyson: 19:56

yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I think like it. Okay. An interesting illustration of your question is like, okay, most people think this way, right? Like, thinking about sex is bad or lustful, right? Like that I shouldn't think about sex. But then what if you're married and you're thinking about like, sex with your spouse, right? Like, oh, I'm thinking about a fun way we could be creative together. I'm thinking about connecting with my wife. Like, is that wrong? And you know, for me, I felt like there, I had to work through some stuff. Like, wait, I think that's actually awesome. I think that'd be awesome if I'm thinking about connecting with my wife in that way. You know? So that's an interesting one to overcome. And then I think a really difficult question that I still do not have the answer to is like, what is the appropriate exploration of sex before marriage? As, as far as like, how much is it okay for me to understand if I feel really curious about it, how much learning could I do before I'm crossing a line? You know, how much understanding, how much like,'cause I don't think the answer is to not explore it at all. I think that's, it sounds very suppressive, right? Suppress it all down. I mean, we are sexual, we are built. Sexuality is part of the way we're built. So yeah, I'd say that's still, that's something I'm still searching out. That perhaps that's one of the reasons I still work a lot with married men, where I'm like, I'm not, I'm not totally sure how to address the, like what do you do now if you're single? But I do think that. As people kind of approach their higher power with that question, I think some really powerful learning can, can show up.

Kristen (2): 21:38

Yeah,

Kyson: 21:38

because yeah, I mean for me, I feel like it was kind of like, let's say like before, before marriage and then after marriage thoughts. It was kind of news to me that like, oh, like sex can be fun, creative, you know, laughing, connecting it's like weird to think that I'd almost be like, oh, it's supposed to be serious. Like, what does that, or there's, you know, like there's all, there's a lot of other things to wrestle with, like, what does it mean to be romantic or what do, how do I want to be romantic or not? And so I do think that sometimes the fear around sexuality before marriage. It can really fuel pornography because it feels like the only way to learn about it. Whereas I think if we had really open conversations with people that we trust, I think we could really, I, I mean, I think we could really just change the, the cultural understanding. I don't know. I, I've got a few people like in my journey that have helped me change my perspective on sex. And, and just like the way I think about it, man, it's, I'm so grateful for them saying things that would typically be seen as way awkward. Like, I can't believe you said that. And then I'm so grateful for the things they've said, you know, just like, anyway, I dunno if that answers your question or do you have thoughts on, on that as well?

Kristen: 22:53

Yeah, just, I guess just like this question of like, what is healthy sexuality? Right? And that's hard. It's tricky when you're trying to abstain before, you know, you're trying to stay away from it before marriage or whatever, whatever your values are before you're in a serious relationship or whatever it is. But yeah, just kind of like, What is, what is that? But it's, it's tricky. It's tricky. I feel like what you were saying about going to your higher power with it is probably good advice, but I feel like a lot of, like you were saying, it's hard to know where the line is with getting educated and thinking about it and, you know, it kind of embracing it a little bit. It's a tricky

Kyson: 23:37

subject. I, I have a similar feeling actually, like, for those that are into like, energy work, right? Like, to me, the energy of this question feels super blocked. Mm-hmm. Like, I feel like I'm trying to step into a room and I hope it would be like open and like I could explore, but instead it feels like I'm walking into like curtains. You know? It just feels like, oh, it's really hard to even ask this question.

Audio Only - All Participants: 23:57

Mm-hmm.

Kyson: 23:58

Which I don't know if you're, if this feels like a good direction, but like my gut feeling is like, oh, I want to ask a question, a new, a new question about this. Yeah. Can we try to find one?

Kristen (2): 24:09

Yeah.

Kyson: 24:09

Like, I don't know, like for starters, let me set a thought here and see if this brings a question, because I do think it's important to delineate. Let's see, there's something about, let, let me see if this works. Like this is just going on faith, right? There's this thought that's popping up. Like I, I think there's an interesting the concept of lust, I think is really hard to pin down. You know, some people you would, if you were to ask like, oh, does, is there a place for lust in marriage? And I think some people are like, depending on your definition of lust, some people are like, oh yeah, for sure. That's like the place where it's welcome. I, but I've been kind of like splitting hairs here and like trying to divide like what is lust versus what is like what if lust is different than like sexual desire or sex drive or things like that, or sexual pleasure. Let's see. Oh, I can feel this connecting to something. So let me try this for fun. This is, this is my personal definition of lust. It is like taking power in inappropriate ways. Mm-hmm. So I'll give you my brief explanation on why I think of it that way.'cause you can lust after money, power, sex, popularity. It's interesting that we use the same word, right? So those things on their own, like money on its own is not bad. It's a power. But when taken inappropriately, it, it is bad. It does damage. Popularity can be an amazing power to have influence over people or with people when taken inappropriately, right? Then it becomes bad. Sexuality is the same. I think it's a neutral power or it's, it's intended to be a great positive power, but when we take it inappropriately that's when it becomes bad. There's also this idea of like, power over another. And I think that, I think that's included in at least this part of lust that I'm trying to identify is like overpowering or controlling other people. And so I, let's see, am I going in an okay direction? I have like one more thought to connect that I think will bring us somewhere. Yeah. So then I would ask why do, if I'm feeling lustful in any of those ways, like I want to have power over, or I want to take power inappropriately. Usually it starts with a fear that I am weak. Right, because otherwise, if I was totally confident in my actual power, I wouldn't be like desperate to get more or to get power over somebody else. So I think it starts with a false belief that I am weak or I'm not gonna be enough as I am. And then there's this idea that like, instead of going for the true route to power, let me go to God or to truth, or to, you know, growing and healing as a human, I'm gonna go for the false version of power, which is where I take it. And I think most people who struggle with porn will find those patterns of thinking in, in their minds and hearts like, I'm not good enough. I can't get the real true version of this power or this desire. And so I've gotta do a counterfeit, which is gonna either look like, you know, taking money or using money to be better than other people or taking sexuality that way. So What if there was a way to learn about if we can separate out lust, right?'cause I don't think lust is ever positive. What if there's a way to explore sexuality without it being lustful? Like without it being about taking power or overpowering other people or it's still a very complex question, but I think there's something about that setting that foundation of like, can I learn about sex? Because obviously you're gonna have a sex drive before you're married. That's part of like being 12 and older, you know, so it's there. Mm-hmm. What is, what is okay for me to learn about? Can I do it in a way that's not lusting after or fantasizing about something I'm not, and more about understanding what I am question mark. I know that's still not like an answer, like, oh, we found it, but it's like a stepping stone, you know?

Kristen: 28:24

No, I love that. Yeah. I think that's probably the best answer we can get in this context, I think.

Kyson: 28:32

Right? But that's because it's in it's individual. Yeah. Everyone's gotta explore that.

Kristen: 28:36

I was gonna say, that's probably something you have to just talk with your clients about and kind of figure out, you know, on your own. But I think it's valuable to discuss in this format. Just, just to get people thinking about it, I guess,'cause Yeah.'cause it is tricky. It's very tricky.

Kyson: 28:55

It is. Can if you're down, I have a thought that kind of connects, you talked about shame earlier. Yeah. Can I, can I bridge this to another thing?

Kristen: 29:04

yeah, I was gonna say, I would love to discuss shame.'cause I feel like that's the big thing that people, it used to just be very like, like you were saying earlier, like you just have to stop doing it and then people realize shame's a big factor in keeping it as a cycle, like a shame cycle. Yeah. Um, So I'd love to talk about that and just any other things any other players in what perpetuates it, but if that's where you're wanting to go, but

Kyson: 29:31

Yeah, totally. I, I think, I honestly think that shame will, shame does way more damage than pornography will ever do. That's a scary thing to say. You know, as an example, people stumble on pornography by accident. Most kids are getting exposed to like, age 12 is the average 12 or younger. So like, do we really need to add shame to. What's usually an accidental experience. And I, I think this, this plays into our conversation about like healthy sexuality before marriage, right? Is like, if we feel shameful about it, it's really hard to know what, like what am I allowed to think about if I feel natural, natural curiosity. You know, what's okay for me to, to explore or consider I wanna share an experience just to give people something to wrestle with around this. So the first time, and this is a very common, I've heard this from many of my clients, but the first time I like talked to a church leader about this, where I was like, Hey, I'm, I've been struggling with porn. And oh gosh, I better be careful here. This is not at all to like, I'm not trying to criticize a like church or anything. I'm more like criticizing a false belief that keeps getting repeated.'Cause yeah, I had a, a bishop ask me, he is like, okay, so are you also masturbating? I was like, yeah. And he's like, okay, well here, here's the breakdown he gave me. He's like, so adultery, we, you know, there's like a scripture out there that's like, adultery is next to murder. So big deal. I was like 15, I think.,15, 16. Adultery is next to murder. And if you're looking at porn and masturbating, you're essentially like pretending to commit adultery. So I. Yikes. Yeah. You know, and that, that's like all the explanation I got. Basically, that's all I remember from that first visit is like, whoa. I'm like, walking close to murder, I guess is like pretty, is pretty serious. And then the other thing that I, this gets tossed around all the time for young men in church settings is, I heard this in Christian. Yeah. All kinds of places where like they'll say, okay, there's a study, or there's this guy who is like interviewing all the psychopaths in the world, and the, the number one commonality between all of them is it starts with porn and like, okay, cool. That might be true. You know, there's all kinds of things you could say about that. But for a little kid, I, I'm being totally serious, that is the most common teaching I hear from all my clients is that they get told that how serious it is, that it's basically getting close to adultery and murder. And that also psychopaths are pretty, you know, porn is where it starts. And so you've got these little teenage kids that are like, wait, I'm, I'm that bad. Like, I'm literally that bad. So I, I think that's pretty, a pretty intense example of shame being the motivator. Whereas here's, here are some other statements that I believe are also true, that are way more empowering. Like, you know, from my, my religious or spiritual belief perspective, I believe that we. We're spirit spirits before this life and we came here and got bodies. And so a way to say that is like, this is our first time experiencing sexuality in a body like this. This is like a new thing. It's a new experience, a new sensation, a new whatever. And so I think God is very understanding of us not getting it right the first time. Or the first 100 times. You know, I think, I think of the beautiful story in the New Testament where the woman who was caught in adultery is brought to Jesus. And he wasn't like, oh, did you know adultery is next to murder? Like you almost murdered there. And maybe he did say that and it's just not written. I don't know. But what we have written is he says, you know, go thy way and sin no more. It seems a little more chill. Another interesting point is that the first, I could be mistaken on this, but I've, I've heard that I need to maybe like double research this, but one of the first people, possibly the first person that Jesus like revealed himself to as like I am the Messiah, is the woman at the well. And she had like five husbands. Isn't that So he asked her that question, right? Like, you know, where are your, I don't know how he says it. Like, you got all these husbands, you know, so that's adultery. And he also is just like teaching her with love. I think that's so beautiful. And so I, I think we need to practice more of that. I think what we have is a lot of parents who are more, who, who are super afraid about sex as well. And so they're trying to teach the children the way they are talking to themselves, which is, I better not mess up. That's a, I'd be a terrible person if I did so let me teach my my kids that way. And that's why it comes through so shamefully. Yeah,

Kristen: 34:27

yeah, yeah. Well it seems like, from what I've heard from people I've dated or you know, whatever it starts out so just innocent, you know, and then they end up shame cycling, you know, and it, and then it does become a problem and it's really heartbreaking'cause it's so unnecessary. It's like we're just, we're just, like you said, we're just figuring it out. And it seems like if we could yeah, change the messaging around that a little bit in, in our cultures and society in general to where, I mean, there's a balance obviously. It is something that's, that's special and, and you wanna, you wanna do it in a healthy way. But but yeah, it's, it's, if we could. Kind of figure out how to, how to teach that in a, in a way that's more accepting. And like this is just, this is just our, our physical like experience. And it's okay.

Kyson: 35:22

Yeah. Yeah. I agree. We need, I think sex is very special. And I, you know, I also understand that porn does bring about a lot of hurt and harm to family. Like, so I don't want to diminish that at all. But again, I, I still think with all the harm and, and hurt that porn has done, I still think the shame of other people has done the shame of this from yourself and from others has done way more damage.'cause it, that's another thing to understand for, you know, there, I know there's a lot of people that get fired up about this stuff, which I think is appropriate. It's a, it's big. Something that is, I. I think important to remember, I guess is like a lot of, for a lot of women who like will maybe discover their husband using pornography, like, that's obviously super difficult, very painful. Especially when it was hidden, right? Like they didn't, you know, this is not a problem they talked about before. I, I think, well, I, what I think is important is to give both partners like a full, full space to feel through all the stuff. For some partners, you know, it's like, for some women they're like, oh, I had no idea you're struggling with that. How can I support you? Like, this is hard, but, you know, you obviously are going through stuff. Let's figure it out together. Other women are like, get outta my house. You know, I'm like, I'll divorce you if you ever do that again. And both are understandable. I do think a, an important perspective is again, that most of these men started receiving really messed up messages about sex by the time they were like eight to 10 years old. They, honestly, that is the way. Most kids are thinking, or many, many kids are thinking, is that like, if I'm a guy, then getting a girl is the thing that makes me have worth, if I'm a guy, then a girl wanting to have sex with me is like the sign that I'm worth something, right? So there's all these messages that start, and then if you stumble on pornography, there's like the shame, there's the twisted. You know, seeing women show themselves that way, that's like, there's just so, there's so many interesting things. It's such a complex issue. And I think what it does is it locks the, when you see that stuff as a kid and when you start, especially with the shame, it locks your child self up. Like you get locked in this world where, where sex is the only thing that can save you and sex is also the thing that's destroying you. And so I think a lot of the men that get into that are very immature. Part of them is very immature, emotionally. And I'm saying, I'm talking about myself like, I was like 26, right? And I'm, I was like, shame. What is shame? Like isn't that, that's crazy. 26. And it's because I had locked up my 12-year-old self trying to like not look at porn, but still struggling with porn. And so anyway, in a lot of ways, like you've got a little kid who's been hiding themselves for many years before a marriage and. Hopefully that can bring some compassion for some of the men, especially for the men who are being accountable and like, want to change. I'm not suggesting, you know, occasionally I've had a couple of guy, like, I, I tend not to work with the men who are not taking accountability. Like, it just doesn't work. But I, I guess occasionally I'll, I'll work with a guy who's like, it's my wife's fault and she needs to gimme more sex. I'm like, okay dude, we're gonna like talk about this a few times and see if I can help you shift. And if not, like I just can't help you. Nothing's gonna change. But most of the men I work with are like really, really good men who have a ton of spiritual gifts and strength and amazing desires. They they just have gotten caught in some traps. So I, I just, I know I just did another like, avalanche of thoughts. Thanks for Yeah, thanks.

Kristen: 39:01

No, no, that's great. You're, you're here to talk, so I'm like Excellent. This is great. We wanna hear your thoughts. So, but yeah, around just when you're talking about how, how this plays out for kids and like, I feel like often there's like the shame and then I wanna talk about the word addiction a little bit. I wanna circle back to that to like shame and kind of some things related to that. But when you talk about it, you often use the word habit. And I'm curious what your thoughts are on the word addiction versus habit in regard to porn.

Kyson: 39:31

Yeah, you're right. I do use the word habit. I don't like the word addiction. I, to be honest, personally, I don't like the word addiction about anything. But especially with pornography, so like, yeah, I'm okay with like, alcohol addiction or drug addiction. I know that's like true. Even in the world of therapy, they're actually shifting away from the word addiction because it's not a true addiction in the way the brain reacts with it. For me, my stance is a little more of a philosophical. Thing though.'Cause the word, the word addiction has a ton of power. It's like, oh, it's a thing I can't control. Right? We love to like, oh, you've got an addiction. Right? So it's not really your fault. And again, I don't come from the other angle of like, it is your fault. You suck, you can control yourself. But here's like, here's an illustrative. Is that a word? An example that illustrates. Okay. I, I had a client who had struggled with porn like every day, even twice a day, most days for like 10 years. It's like, that's all he remembers, basically is like I look at porn every day. So I was talking to him, I think it was just our free consultation, and I was like asking questions and found some stuff that came up around like the way his family treats him and the way he feels like they think about him. And I was like, when's the first time you felt that? And he like, kind of had a flashback to like a younger, you know, age 12 or age 10. And he started crying and just recounting it, like a really difficult experience that happened. And we, we worked through it. We talked about some of those root issues. And then like, without even expecting, he told me two weeks later, he is like, dude, I had 10 days without using porn. I. So that's where I'm like, dude, you guys wanna say that's an addiction. But here's the thing. He had one breakthrough and he got 10 free days. He wasn't like even trying that hard. Like he, we, he didn't do a follow-up session. We, he kind of disappeared on me, but like 10 days of free, you know, porn free days from just understanding one of his root issues. And so I, I also shy, so I shy away from like, talking about addiction. And I also don't love the, the chemical brain conversation. Oh, it's just chemical pathways, dopamine, the same thing. It's like, if it's a chemical pathway, how can it change immediately once you shift your heart and shift your spirit? So I, I've seen that over and over and I, I just don't find it very helpful to talk about it as an addiction. Yeah,

Kristen: 41:55

yeah. Yeah. And I feel like there's a lot of, there's a lot of um, just a lot of stories, I don't know if story's the right word, but around the word addiction as far as like, once you're an addict, you're always an addict, you know? And it's kinda, and I think that can be like, I don't know, I think for some people maybe that's helpful for them when they're really trying to get, be consistent, to get out of like a, a drug habit or a drug addiction or something, maybe. But I, I kind of don't like it either, where I'm like, I don't think that's helpful. I don't, I don't think that, that, that's like giving your power to the, you know, it's like I can't do anything about this. I'm, I'm an addict. Yeah. It's like, wow, that's really disempowering.

Kyson: 42:36

Oh, I totally agree. I gotta be careful not to get too fired up about that one.'cause I, holy cow. Because like, on, on the list of top three things that I remember from being from like, here are the teachings about pornography and sex from my childhood. It's the adultery and murder, it's the psychopaths use porn. And seriously, the third one is hearing the 12 step guy come in to the men only, right? And say, oh, pornography this and that. And then once an addict, always an addict. Like that's the teaching that I took in. So like, think of the story you piece together, like close to murder psychopaths are kind of like me, I guess. And then like, I will always be an addict, so the rest of my life is gonna suck, which I think turns to this thing of like, I'm never gonna get true relief, and so I might as well indulge a little or I'm never gonna be happy. Like that's really what it turns into. Mm-hmm. It's like if I'm always gonna be an addict that's not happy, I might as well get a little porn here and there, or a little drug or a little. So yeah, I don't think that is helping anybody. The other one that I'll say that I. Really dislike is from the, oh, this is kind of intense, but it's from the 12 step program. Deep breath.'cause like I'm not supposed to criticize that, whatever. Even in, even in like the church's 12 step, the step one is to admit that you are powerless outside of yourself. And I know there's a whole, like I do believe God is powerful, but I think God has empowered us from the beginning. Like to admit that you're powerless to me is like one of the grossest, it's like one, well, it's one of the grossest things to, to encourage people to believe because I actually think that is the root of the issue. The one of the core, most core root issues is that my guys believe that they're powerless. And so they're turning to false types of power, which is lust, right? That's back to this definition of like, lust is taking false power or taking power in false ways. And they wouldn't do that if they saw who they truly were, which is like a powerful and empowered child of God, an empowered being. God has given anyway, God's given us like agency and spiritual gifts and the power of awareness and a million powers. There's no way we're powerless. So that idea just makes me sick.

Kristen: 44:54

Yeah, that's so interesting.'cause I've, I, I don't know, like tons about 12 Step. I know a little bit. I have some friends who do it, but I have heard that, like that's one of the, the first thing I. And I was thinking like, I was like, okay. Yeah. Like you have to kind of be humble and admit that like God's in charge. But I totally see what you're saying. Like it's like, but then yeah, it kind of can turn us into victims still. Like, yeah, if you don't see who you really are, I think that's a huge problem for people where they don't see their true identity, like their most divine, like higher self identity. And that's really how do you improve if you can't see that?

Kyson: 45:39

Yeah. Can you imagine, I think just even taking the exact words you just said, I think it would have a massive impact just changing the first step one to what you just said, that like, God is in charge and I'm practicing humility. And then also I love, I actually love your phrase of like, I don't, I don't yet see my true identity. And I admit that like, oh dude, can you feel the difference in that? Yeah. that yeah. Of like, I am struggling and I don't yet see my true identity. I'll turn to God for help. That is an entirely different principle than I am powerless and I cannot do anything in a, in and of myself. Like, oh my gosh, I got the chills from,

Kristen (2): 46:15

I did too. It's like, oh wow. It's shifted

Kyson: 46:16

way. It's so cool. Yeah.

Kristen (2): 46:18

Yeah.

Kyson: 46:19

So yeah, I've got, I've got a few issues with that. I think I'm an, I understand too, I think the church has tried to adapt the original 12 step, which says the same thing. So you can't just go, cha, maybe, maybe you can't just go changing step one. I don't really know. But yeah, I've definitely, I definitely take a little issue with that one.

Kristen: 46:36

Yeah. Yeah. And like, you know, 12 step is, I think it's people need it and it's great and I'm not, we're not bashing it, but I mean, it's the wording, I don't know. But yeah, the wording on step one. Yeah. It's like there are things, yeah, it's like this isn't a perfect system, I guess, but anyway. But yeah, I think that's. Ah,

Kyson: 46:54

yeah.

Kristen: 46:54

Good, good

Kyson: 46:55

stuff. And, and may maybe, maybe to like sum that thought up too. I think what we're saying is like, let's pay attention to the way we're talking and teaching because you have, you know, you've got adults who have more perspective trying to teach children. And children are already cl you know, a lot of these kids are getting taught about pornography after they've already used it, you know, after they've already fallen in. And so you, these kids have a cloudy mind, you know, like, I'm clouded and freaked out and filled with shame. And so they're gonna latch onto those faults teachings, you know, if they're said in ways that have shame with them, they latch onto that stuff of like, oh crap, that's proof that I'm terrible. So I think we just gotta be a lot more careful about the words we choose. We gotta, no, I'll stop at that. We gotta be careful with the way we teach stuff.

Kristen: 47:41

100%. Yeah. Kind of circling back to like the role shame plays and so do you feel like there are other things that keep people stuck more than just, I mean, there's obviously like our beliefs that we just talked about

Audio Only - All Participants: 47:55

mm-hmm. About

Kristen: 47:56

ourselves and then there's shame. Are there any other things that you notice with pe the people you work with where they're, they're stuck in, in a cycle or they're disempowered.

Kyson: 48:09

Yeah. Like, I'm thinking like, wow, why does that question feel so hard? It feels like, I just wanna tell you everything I've ever known. So it's like, okay, let me try to narrow, I'm not gonna answer it that way. Yeah. Okay. Like other kind of like other common patterns.

Kristen: 48:24

Yeah. Is that okay to say it that

Kyson: 48:26

way? Well, or things that help keep'em real stuck. Like

Kristen: 48:28

probably things that keep them really stuck, but I do wanna talk about patterns. Yeah.

Kyson: 48:34

Mm-hmm. Okay. Too many things to talk

Kristen: 48:36

about.

Kyson: 48:37

No, it's, it's great. I think in some ways that's a similar question, but I, I like your pointed, like Okay. Things that keep'em stuck. The other one. Yeah, go ahead.

Kristen: 48:46

Because I guess I'm thinking of people, I, I guess I, I'm considering people who are listening to this, who feel very stuck right now. And I wanna help them identify some things and kind of help them realize like, oh, this is normal, or this is something you can resolve. If that makes sense.

Kyson: 49:02

It does. Yeah. Let me like, take a deep breath and just try to feel which one of the things yeah. I'll share this thought that I, I think, okay. I think that one of the other core things that keeps people stuck is the attitude that man, there's a lot of ways to say this, basically like, believing you have to earn what you receive. And there's a whole bunch of like surrounding pattern habits right here where it's like, if you're not sure, if you feel like you have to earn things here would be like the signs that you do or the si signs that you believe you have to earn. Everything you receive would be that you like compare yourself to others a lot. There's a lot of like score keeping. There's usually a feeling of like, I'm either above or below other people. I mean, oh, like I'm better than that person, but I'm worse than that person. You know, I'll never be as good as them. Or someday. But I'm definitely better than like those people who believe this, you know, on the other side of the political spectrum or whatever. And another thing I see a lot with that is like, especially I'll talk about Christian pattern, if that's okay, is there's kind of this idea of like, a lot of people feel, they'll say like, oh, of course I believe in God, or I believe in Jesus. I believe he can help me. I believe he helps other people, but it's like I, I, I'm afraid he won't help me until I fix myself to a certain degree. And so there's almost this like sus the help is like suspended above them. Like I know it's right up there. I just, I'm not ready for it yet.'cause I haven't like done this and done that and stopped, you know, making this mistake. And so one of the, you know, if that's something, if someone's listening and you suspect you think you might, I. Treat yourself that way, that like, yeah, I, I can receive help like later after I fix myself. One of my favorite verses of scripture is in, I'm gonna look this up real quick. Second, Nephi 26, 25. I believe sometimes I get the number backwards. Let's see, 26, 25. Okay, here it is. A lot of people might recognize this scripture, but it says, behold talking about God, death, he cry unto any saying, depart from me. Like, does he say, go away. Behold I say unto you, nay, but he sayeth come unto me all ye ends of the earth. And this is the part I wanna actually focus on at the end. It says so come into me all ends of the earth, buy milk and honey, whatever that means symbolically. And he says, buy it without money and without price. And I think that's what I would invite people to think about is like, what would it mean to buy or to receive without money and without price, without having to pay for it? Because I think that's actually the situation we're in is that for those that believe in, in Jesus, right, like Jesus has paid for it, God has provided, you know, or your higher power has provided a whole earth experience here, it's already paid for, but if you're not receiving it. Then you can't receive it. You know, it's like kind, I'm like being a little bit whatever there, but like if you, if you aren't willing to receive the healing, then the healing cannot force itself on you. And so I, I, I would invite people to practice. Like, if you feel stuck in pornography, I'd say there's a hundred percent chance you're trying to earn everything. Oh. Like, I don't want that until I earn it. I don't want love until I earn it. I don't want connection or approval or validation until I earn it. I don't want God's miracles until I earn them. And, you know, that takes some time to unravel. I still feel, I still feel bits of that pop up sometimes. I'm like, God, I don't deserve that, whatever. But I'm actively practicing just literally like opening my arms and saying, cool, yes, I will receive the healing that's available to me. I'll receive the love from my wife that's available to me. And what's crazy is, as I've,'cause I used to be in a real mentality of like, oh, I've gotta do more and earn more so that my wife will love me. Turns out as I chilled out and like let go of some of those fears. What I found is a wife that loves me a lot already, even when I make mistakes and do things that are stupid or whatever. And so, yeah, no. Does that see, does that make sense? I think that's the way to get out. Yeah. Being stuck is to just start receiving good things.

Kristen: 53:24

Yeah. Allow yourself to receive Yeah. Everything you're saying. I'm like, this is wor it's worthiness. Right? Like, it's like feeling like you're worthy. And I think that's a big. One of those words, you know, we get hung up on. Yes. But yeah.

Kyson: 53:44

Yeah. I'm not sure why, but I, I've noticed the more I've healed, the less I think about that word worthiness. Yeah. The less I use the word

Kristen: 53:53

I think in terms of worthiness. Yeah.

Kyson: 53:55

Yeah. Like obviously I'm down for like, I'm trying to think of alternative words that feel good. I'm down for like righteousness. I'm down for seeking truth in God and Christ, and humility virtue I'm down for all of that. Yeah. But the word worthy has gotten, it's like a little package that we've stuffed a lot of stuff in there that isn't miss isn't necessarily true, I think.

Kristen: 54:19

Yeah. Yeah. I like that. You, I don't, I don't think I always associate receiving, even though it's very obvious when you say it out loud, but I don't always think of like, oh, just allow yourself to receive. I didn't, I don't always think about like, worthiness is blocking that, where my perception around not being worthy is blocking receiving.

Kyson: 54:38

Yeah.

Kristen: 54:38

It's very obvious when you say it, but I'm like, oh yeah, that is, that is the thing.

Kyson: 54:44

Yeah.

Kristen: 54:44

Absolutely. But

Kyson: 54:45

yeah, that's super interesting. It, another way to, or another thought that's right next to this is that. See, like, okay, for those that maybe aren't Christian is a cool way to think of it. And for those that are if you were to like, rewind and ask me, like, okay, what's a thing that gets people stuck or keeps'em stuck? Here's an easier, simpler way to say that whole thing is when people are outsourcing for everything. So what I mean is like outsourcing to other people for validation that they're good. Like, oh, I, I won't feel good until like my mom tells me I'm good, or my wife tells me I'm good, or society tells me I'm good. Outsourcing for like, what's your definition of success, right? How much money, how much time should I spend working every day? How much suffering do I need to do every day to feel like a good person, right? So there's all this outsourcing and going like, what do they think and what do they think and what do they think? Outsourcing for love, outsourcing for feeling appreciated, all that. What it, because what it usually leads to is, oh, well I need to go work hard then to receive it, right? I need to work hard so that they'll give me the validation. I think the truer way is like to internalize and to go with God and say, can you help me create appreciation within myself? Can you help me create love within myself? Yeah. Like instead of outsourcing, kind of bring it in and say, I'm okay. I'm okay to be where I'm at right now and just like start to receive and to create that validation within myself. It's okay to appreciate myself. It's crazy that, that, you know, a co a few years ago or something that would've felt kinda like a scary thought. Like, are you allowed to talk that way? But now I'm like, dude, of course I appreciate myself. I got a ton of awesome things and gifts and guess what? Every single person I've ever met that I've been able to like, get to know also is an amazing person and has incredible things to appreciate. And I think we're pretty stuck in going the opposite way. Like, we're pretty stuck in this thought of like, oh, we're not worthy, we're not good enough. We're a bunch of losers, we're sinners, we're terrible. Mm-hmm. It's like, well that's one way to spin it if you want. But yeah, I don't, I don't see Jesus going, Hey everyone, make sure you remind yourselves often that you are sinners. I see him saying the opposite. He says, no, you not the er, gods sc you know, one of the scariest scriptures in the whole, in, in any anywhere is him saying that with no explanation. You know?

Kristen: 57:12

Yeah. That's powerful though. Like,'cause we don't think that way. So it's important to, yeah. Consider that.

Audio Only - All Participants: 57:22

Yeah.

Kristen: 57:22

But yeah. What are some of the, let's talk about some patterns you notice whenever your, like typical patterns with these clients you're working with. I know we've talked about a few, I don't know if we covered all of them, but I wanna make sure we cover that.'cause that was something we had chatted about that I thought was really interesting.

Kyson: 57:41

Yeah, I think we've covered, I think the core ones are the ones that will get you unstuck. Right. Let me think what other patterns. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. There's definitely yeah. Okay. I guess there'd be patterns in, I'll, I'll just kind of review'em real quick.'cause I, I think they're similar, but like, showing up in relationships as like, I've gotta earn everything. Another way to say that would be like, feeling like you're in debt to everybody constantly. Oh, I owe, you know, I've gotta keep track of how much they've given me so I can make sure I give just as much or more. Fear of vulnerability. Having a really hard time just sharing. Honestly, there's a lot. So, you know, there's the idea that you're, you're lying and holding. I don't know why I did air quotes. There's the idea that you're lying and doing, you know, you're lying about pornography, right? I'm hiding this from everyone. Most, most people have convinced themselves that porn is the big thing. They're hiding. But I think that they're almost always hiding way more than porn. They're hiding their, their identity, their, you know, their thoughts, their feelings their opinions, right? Like when their, when their wife says, Hey, you know, can you do this? Or do you want to go help with this? Instead of saying, no, I don't, can we find a way to do this that works for both of us? They say, yeah, I'll do it. And then they fill up with resentment, right? So there's this like, hiding of what you really think. Struggling with boundaries, not knowing how to enforce a boundary. They'll either go to like super weak boundaries, like, I ha you know, people can just step all over'em and then they'll pendulum swing to like, angry outbursts and just like, ah, you know, trying to hurt people, punishing them for hurting them. But not knowing how to stand confident in a boundary. Trying to think what else people pleasing. I said, yeah, a lot of these, honestly, a lot of them are almost, I see them as branches off of the same route, right? It's like, I feel powerless, so I, people please, I feel powerless. So I look for fake ways to get my desires. There's a lot of like self punishment, I would say. I need to be, oh, like every single dude, for real. You could say, oh, you struggle with porn. And then you could be like, so do you feel like you're hard on yourself? Like, oh yeah. Harder than myself, than anybody else. Like that's just classic. And I know a lot of people who don't struggle with porn also do that. But like, what's interesting is, I think we talked about this before, but like when I work with people about 90% of the conversation is about this stuff. It's not about porn. It's about like, how do you feel about yourself relationships, you know, are you beating yourself up all the time? Like, we talk about that stuff and interestingly, the porn problem goes away. So, yeah.

Kristen: 1:00:26

Yeah. I think that's, hopefully that is something like, that's something we just don't think about, you know, in relation to, to porn. And so I'm hoping that'll kind of help people just see like, oh yeah, there, there are things here that I can work through that aren't, that aren't that scary. But I'm curious. I don't know. Oh, so go ahead. I was just gonna

Kyson: 1:00:51

tag onto that really lightly. Yeah. One of my clients, one of the coolest things I've ever heard, we were like a couple months into working together and he said, this is the most fun I've ever had. And I was like, what are you talking about? He's like, oh, just getting to like, learn about myself and ask new questions and realize that I'm not like a broken thing. I'm not a man that's broken and just can't stop using porn. I'm a dude with like some parts of me that hurt really bad and as we resolve it, he's like getting to feel more joy, learn about himself, you know, understand himself, understand his wife, understand others. So I honestly think it's a beautiful journey from day one. If you're looking at the roots, if you start from a place of shame, it's gonna hurt the whole way through. And you might get out, you might get healed, I dunno. But in my experience, it can be a joyful journey from like right now. Like if you, you know, if you messed up and relapsed or whatever word you, like, you looked at porn last night, you know, that's hard. It's not a fun feeling. But like, kind of like shake it off and start to ask yourself some hard questions. You can find joy right there. Find someone that you trust and talk to'em, or, you know, come talk to me and I'll ask you some deep questions, but with a ton of compassion and it can be joyful, like, for real right now. So

Kristen: 1:02:07

that's so empowering and yeah, I feel like people don't experience that with this. So I love, I just love what you're doing. But I'm curious. I don't you, I'm guessing you don't talk to the spouses or the partners of your clients. You're probably not getting their feedback,

Audio Only - All Participants: 1:02:25

but sometimes,

Kristen: 1:02:26

sometimes, yeah. I'm curious how, what, what the, what the women or the wives or whoever, you know, are saying about how their relationship dynamics are shifting as you're working with these guys and they're seeing progress and they're changing because I think that's from the, from the partner's perspective, that's so hard. You're kind of dealing with a lot of the, at least like women I've talked to in my own experience, dating people you know, you often feel like your boundaries are not respected or you kind of feel like an object or they're being selfish or they're not seeing you fully. And that's really hard. And I'm just curious if, if that also is shifting as I would assume it would, at least somewhat. But I'm curious if the, the partners seeing that,

Kyson: 1:03:19

you know? Yeah, I think, I mean, it depends on it for sure. Depends on each couple.

Audio Only - All Participants: 1:03:24

Yeah.

Kyson: 1:03:24

Oh man, I had so many thoughts while you're talking.'cause I, I, I do think, like I said, there needs to be room for both partners to feel through. You know, like I'll have some clients, like I said, who their wife is like, all right, let's work together. Let's like build some closeness. That's amazing when that can happen. And then there's also clients who are like, wow, I'm feeling so hurt right now. You know, I can't believe you would be looking at porn without telling me all these years. And that's also an o that's an okay response. That's a normal response to like the, you know, what's going on. And so I think creating space for both of them to kind of feel through that. The ultimate goal is to come together and start to create again together. I think, let's see. I was gonna go into like a perspective, but I want to answer your question of like, how do they actually see the shift? I would say that for the couples that are willing to go here, I see an increase of like vulnerability. I. Accountability. Like the, the three principles I really hit a lot are like being vulnerable, accountable, and then abundant. Like trusting that you can create what you want. So like a way to, a way I would illustrate that is a lot of couples before, even before porn came out and before they, they knew that's what they were dealing with. The dynamic typically has a lot of expectation on it. So a husband, you know, husband expects, expects this of the wife, and the wife is like, well now I expect this of you. Can you feel the like debt exchange, right? You're in debt to me so that you'll do the thing I need you to do and we're gonna toss that debt around. So again, this is the old pattern. Before the, the healing, there's a lot of need, need language. I need you to do this, I need you to support me, I need you to validate me. And it's very bitter and resentful. And that would be from both parties, right? I'm not saying just the why. Mm-hmm. Whereas when people choose to heal and shift into a better way, it turns more to like, I'm trying to think if I can, if this illustrates it quickly, this is, it's a pretty deep concept or like complex concept, but like the energy or the tone on the conversation shifts to like, Hey would it, would it be a win for you to do this? Or I would, I would love to connect in this way. Is that a win for you? Then wife is like, well, no, that's not quite a win for me today, but I would love to connect in this way. How do you feel about that? And then he, you know, then he is like, oh, sweet. Let's totally connect that way. Can you feel how there's, there's an honest, it's like all your cards are out on the table instead of like holding your cards and trying to get your spouse to do what you need them to do, what you think you need them to do. It's like true honesty where like both of us are being honest about how they, how we feel, what we desire, but having a trust that I, I'm like getting a little in the weeds here, but like. Basically trusting that I can create a life that I love and I don't need you to like fix the thing I'm scared of As a spouse, you don't need my spouse to like rescue me from my fear about what? And, and honestly, I think a really poignant place where this would show up would be like with sex, where the husband's like, well, I need sex. And that's, that's the old conversation is I need to have sex or, because I've got so much sex drive. And she's like, well, I'm not in the mood. Do you want me to just. Sacrifice myself, right? There's like the debt exchange where it would shift to like essentially this question of like, okay, I, I am feeling in the mood. Are you, you know, would, are you feeling in the mood? Would you be down to connect in that way? And then she's like, no, I'm not. But you know, is there a place where we can build a bridge of desire of like, I would love to do this. Would you love to do that? And see them connect instead of building connection out of like, I'm gonna hurt if you don't. I'm gonna feel, you know, I'm gonna feel uncomfortable if you don't give me what I need. I'm gonna be mad at you. Or, you know, I've been working so hard all day, I can't believe, you know, and then the wife's like, well, I've been working with the kids all day. I just wanna relax. Like, there's all these classic conversations that if you look at underneath, you'll find that it's really tossing around like a debt thing. Like, I've suffered this much debt and you need to suffer now. Or like, what am I gonna get what I want and what I deserve? And instead we shift out of that to like, I'll be vulnerable and say, I'm super in the mood today, you know, to my spouse. Like, I'm super in the mood. If you're not, that's okay. I'm confident that I can figure it out. You know, or like there, there's kind of this like empowered version of trying to create a relationship versus I feel weak. I need you to fix me. Does that, was that too complex of a way to answer that?

Kristen: 1:07:59

No, I think that made a lot of sense. And what I'm seeing is people are able to work more as an actual team and like friends where they're Oh.

Kyson: 1:08:08

Like equals That's what it

Kristen: 1:08:09

sounds like. Yeah, yeah,

Kyson: 1:08:11

yeah. Instead of,'cause a lot of a

Kristen: 1:08:13

martyr, martyr manipulation tactics. Yeah. Situation.

Kyson: 1:08:19

Yeah. Hero, victim, villain. That's one of the things I talk about so much. I just had this thought about, oh, like me and my wife, I'm thinking like several years back looking at the pattern, it would be like, and maybe a lot of people can relate to this, but I would see this like, okay, with our spiritual life, with like church, I'm the better one.'cause I'm like, oh, we gotta go be on time to church. You know, we gotta make sure we pray and read our scriptures. So I would put myself above, and then like with money, she would put herself like, oh no, she's more being more responsible with money. Right? And so we'd flip flop to like, well no, I'm, I'm above you in this and so you need to like, help me this way. And she'd be like, well, I'm above you over here. And so it's like you said, we turn into it, we practice becoming a team, working as actual friends that respect each other and honor, you know, it's like I, that that's another huge shift that people would see in their husband is like. The, the energy behind what he's saying, or hopefully the actual words would be like, oh, I'd never want you to say yes to something that doesn't feel like a win to you. But what's interesting is that a lot of those situations, it's, it's really hard for the spouse, for the wife to also be okay with their husband saying no to other things. Right. Hey, can you help me with this? If your husband isn't allowed to say no, then he is not really saying yes. And it's the same, it's the same thing with sex. Mm-hmm. If your wife isn't allowed to say no, then she's not really saying yes. You know? So you gotta give people the freedom to, like, I, I don't want you to say yes'cause I want you to say yes. I want to know where are you at? Does this sound fun to you? Does this, you know, and it, it's really cool'cause in, in these different scenarios, it brings opportunity for difficult conversation that turns to like real connection on, on something. Even as simple as like, doing the dishes. You know, I, I think I like, I'm flashing back to like, I used to have so much resentment'cause my wife would be like, Hey, can you do the dishes? And I'd be like, like, I'd say yes, but then I'd be like, oh, stupid dishes. My wife's always making me, you know, tell me what to do. It's like, dude, you've never said no. I'd never said no. I had just said yes and sat in the resentment. So what's cool as an example. Instead of just saying yes, I can say I don't really wanna do'em. You know, I'd be down to do'em like later tonight. Or like you start to look for creative solutions or like, Hey, do you wanna do'em with me? Or like, Hey, I, you know, she's with the kids, whatever. But you could almost be like, Hey, do you wanna like listen to an audio book together while I do the dishes? Or do you wanna come have a conversation and play 20 questions with me while I do it? And can you see how there's like, instead of this tossing around of debt, it's replaced with a trust that I can create a situation I love, which is like, oh, I would actually love doing the dishes if we were talking. Are you down to do that? And so you get creative instead of like punishing.

Kristen (2): 1:11:14

Yeah.

Kyson: 1:11:15

So, yeah, it's, it's so fun to see that. And, you know, it's not gonna be a flip of a switch. We're like, oh, boom. I mean, for most couples, there's gonna be some really hard conversations. And the hardest part is gonna be just opening your mouth and actually saying what's in your heart in an accountable way. But after that it's like, it's so beautiful. It's awesome.

Kristen (2): 1:11:39

Oh, that's awesome.

Kristen: 1:11:40

Yeah. And I think what you were saying about when the energy changes the way you're speaking to each other and it kind of sh I feel like that's key. Like, like the, I don't want you to say yes if you don't wanna say yes and like actually meaning it, that's mm-hmm. That's where I feel like that's the, the key thing.

Kyson: 1:12:02

It's so key. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, right there too, like you can, because I, I love the three principle idea here to say it again. It's to be vulnerable, accountable, and abundant. So there's this cool, like, I don't want you to say no, and if you, or you know, I don't want you to say yes unless that's what you really want. And then you can even be more vulnerable and say like, okay, part of me does want you to say yes, but I'm gonna let go of that. Right? That's like a, it's like a really accountable version of being vulnerable. Because some people hear vulnerable and they're like, oh, you want me to like be weak? I'm like, no, dude. I want you to be confidently vulnerable where you're like, abundant, you're accountable, and you're vulnerable is one of the most powerful combinations where I can tell my wife like, Hey, you know, I'll be honest, you know, if when you said no, like I am experiencing some emotions about that, you know, I'm feeling kind of, lonely, but it's not your fault. It's just my emotion. And I want to like, thank you for letting me voice it. Would you be down to talk about, you know, something? Do you, do you wanna talk? Do you wanna like, can I tell you more about what I'm feeling? Or would that be a win for you? There's this way of like. I, I think it's related to the outsourcing thing, right? Like, I'm not outsourcing anything to her. I don't need her to fix the way I feel. I'm like, I am down to stand in my own space and feel all of it. Like, holy cow, I'm feeling so much rage about whatever the kids are misbehaving, but that's my rage. It's me and I, you know, would you be down to talk about it? You know, whatever. Like, it's this really cool mix of, of being vulnerable, like humble, and then also super accountable. And honestly, I don't, I think you become unstoppable. And this applies to anything, not just pornography. This applies to like anything. If you can be vulnerable, accountable, and abundant, like nothing can stop you. Yeah. And if you can observe, like that's one of my biggest cues right now is like, oh, okay, I'm not being vulnerable. I'm hiding. That's a sign for me to practice. You know? Like I try to track one, am I being not vulnerable when I, when am I being not accountable? When am I blaming other people? When am I being scarce instead of abundant? And just trying to practice those three, it's like it'll change your whole life.

Kristen: 1:14:24

Yeah. You know, I'm like taking notes. Like, this is, this is good stuff.

Kyson: 1:14:30

Awesome.

Kristen: 1:14:31

I wanna talk about masculinity.

Kyson: 1:14:34

Nice. I almost bridged us over there. Just barely.

Kristen: 1:14:37

Yeah. Yeah. Well, as you were talking, I was like, oh yeah, healthy masculine, like. Let's talk'cause that's something you cover a lot in your coaching. Correct. So I feel like there's a lot of um, it's kind of a popular thing right now, a little bit in some circles and sometimes I think the, the masculine gets, there's kind of some parading it as just, just alpha male. A little bit, and I, I think, I don't know, tell me your thoughts, but I feel like it's so much more than that and it's not, that's not really what, it's kind of missing the mark.

Kyson: 1:15:17

Yeah, I do too. I, I mean, honestly, a lot of the thoughts we were just talking about, I love this like, opposite, right? There's this healthy opposite of like, a tender father, you know, that tenderness of a father that's like, I love my kids. And then also like the warrior on the other side that's like, and I, I will protect truth. Mm-hmm. So there's these opposites. Same with like being vulnerable. It's like, it's more of a it tender thing, but with the like, powerful accountability is like, and boom, I can create, you know, like these are my emotions and I'm willing to talk about them. I, I love the question just to like, break through one of the classic cliche things that people say about men. You know, or about emotions. Men will be like, oh, emotions are so weak. You know, masculinity is whatever. I think here's a cool question. Which one sounds more powerful? Someone who's afraid to say what they're actually feeling, or someone who's willing to say what they're feeling and face it. I think that might encompass masculinity right there. This is what I think and feel and I will face it and be accountable for it. Yeah. So yeah, I mean, that's one little anecdote. I guess gen, generally speaking more like philosophical. I think masculine is about, I. Structure, creating structure and space for the feminine. It's, you know, it's, it's very direct. I mean, since we're talking about sex and pornography and stuff, I think honestly a really cool metaphor for masculinity to think about. Like the genitals, like the penis is pointed and, and direct and it moves through, right? You know, sorry for those who are like, oh, that's a little too direct, but masculinity is direct and pointed and, and like creative. Let's go create this where the feminine is more receiving and open. The feminine can be about like all the possibilities of creation, where the masculine is about the pointed, like, let's choose this thing and create it together. Yeah, I dunno, thoughts on that from you? That's about where I would go. Yeah.

Kristen: 1:17:17

Yeah. I feel like I know a little bit more about the feminine and so, but I love how they, they do just really compliment each other. I feel like when you can get into a nice flow where you're really kind feeling into those traits, it, it kind, it kind of puts you naturally in like a good, a good dynamic if it's healthy, you know?

Kyson: 1:17:41

Yeah.

Kristen: 1:17:42

Some of the shifts you were talking about that men make around being able to speak up and being able to be confident and just the three things you mentioned.

Kristen (2): 1:17:50

Just vulnerable, accountable when were just,

Kristen: 1:17:52

yeah. I feel like that even though a lot of those feel like feminine traits in a way, some of them do, it's, it's kind of like there's, there's like a masculine way you're approaching it, you know, with like, I feel like vulnerability is a very more of a feminine trait. And then interesting accountability feels more masculine maybe. I don't know.

Kyson: 1:18:13

Well, what, what if you split each of those down the middle? So youve got a feminine and masculine side of being vulnerable.

Audio Only - All Participants: 1:18:18

Yeah. Where

Kyson: 1:18:19

even as an example, the masculine would be like, I will, I'm gonna actively create space for vulnerability right here. Like think of like, I'm gonna toss up the framework of a house so we have a space to be vulnerable and protected. And not just for you, but for me as well. Or you know, like, not just for me, but for you as well. Like, almost like, it brings up the protector side of like, wait a second, something's off right here. Can you feel how weird this conversation just got? Like, if there's tension, you are like, can you feel how we just, like, what's, what's that feeling? I felt the power dynamic shift. Let's create a space right now to be vulnerable. Would you be down to do that? And can you feel the masculine in that sense? Yeah. Whereas the feminine vulnerability is, I'm like, I don't know how to explain that side. I'm sure it's more like, what is it? Like, I don't know. Maybe I have thoughts on that.

Kristen: 1:19:09

I mean, I'm no expert. I just kind of dabble in this stuff. Right. But same. Yeah. But I feel like it's more just like open-ended, more kinda inviting.

Audio Only - All Participants: 1:19:19

Mm-hmm.

Kristen: 1:19:20

Sharing and inviting and kind of. Allowing the masculine to hold that space,

Kyson: 1:19:27

yeah, I like that. I think it, I think these ideas are a little bit nebulous on purpose. Know they are. It's like, I think it's, it's just a journey.

Kristen (2): 1:19:35

Mm-hmm.

Kyson: 1:19:36

Another thought that popped up is like, well, can I go to a semi new thought about masculinity or Yeah,

Kristen (2): 1:19:42

yeah.

Kyson: 1:19:43

Because yeah, while you were talking, I was thinking about like the little boy dynamic. A lot of men who struggle with porn are in little boy energy. Like, oh, my mom is telling me what to do. That's why they get into that with their wife. It's just like, oh, I have to do what she says, or she'll be disappointed in me. I mean, holy cow. That's in, it's like every relationship I've worked with, it's like there's at least some of that, if not like, a mountain of it. And the thing to realize is that I guess both if that dynamic is truly going on then both are in an kind of an unhealthy version of masculine and feminine, right? The, if the feminine is like mom being in mom mode, and the, the boy, you know, the masculine is a little boy mode. You've got this weird dynamic. Like it really breaks the, the connection and intimacy. So I think, you know, one of you, one of you or both of you, who's gonna have to shift basically. He might as well be if, if you're aware of it, then shift, you know, for as far as like, whose fault is it? There's gonna be a lot of that. Like, oh, she treats me this way and I'll be like, dude, no, you're, let's figure out your side first. Get all the way healed up. And then if your wife has still got some stuff, then we'll try and support her. But like, you gotta be accountable. And I would say the same to the, to the wife, which is a little scary.'Cause you know, a lot of times it feels like, oh, this whole issue is just'cause my husband is looking at porn, he's the problem and I've got nothing to change. And honestly, if you wanna do that, it's okay. He'll, he can change. But I think the more joyful thing is gonna be to help the, for both spouses to step into a new way of interacting. Again, I'm kind of out in the weeds here, but I think it's so powerful to help men step into like their true masculine, to let go of, or even even to just observe if you get really honest with yourself and look for like, when do I feel like a little boy? That, that feeling will come up and just start to notice like what situations bring that up and then let's start to face, like why, why are you going into little boy mode in that situation? And then I think it's just a practice of figuring out a more powerful way to go forward.

Kristen: 1:22:01

Yeah. Is that kind of mainly how you bring that in with your clients?

Kyson: 1:22:06

Like helping them notice that,

Kristen: 1:22:07

like when you're talking about healthy masculinity with'em. Yeah. Is it kind of like noticing the little boy, kind of seeing these more like kind of healthy masculine traits that we want to embody a little bit more?

Kyson: 1:22:23

Yeah. It's interesting. I haven't been asked that in a long time, and I'm just realizing like, oh, you know, I'm not, I don't say the word masculinity very much. Mm-hmm. Unfortunately, I think it's got a little bit of a trigger on it for guys. Like one of the, I feel like it gets brought up as like, Hey, I've got another thing you aren't doing right. You know, and so I, I try to be, I think I'm trying to be careful of that, like, so, we'll, I would use all the language we've talked about today, but I usually don't say like, Hey, are you being masculine enough? It's more like, Hey, let's create, like, I'll try to give them an example of how it could feel or I do a lot around accountability, vulnerable, abundant, and practice that dynamic. I am, I'm honestly right now considering I'm like, oh, I wonder if it would be better for me to talk about it more. But I do think there is a, there's a lot of trigger around it. So I'm, I'm kind of like thinking as I'm answering your question here.

Kristen: 1:23:16

Well, I feel like people do get kind of hung up on this is my role and that's your role. And it can get a little bit like.

Kyson: 1:23:23

Kind of hary.

Kristen: 1:23:24

Yeah. That way. So it's like, I feel like it's good to be aware or maybe, you know, just the way you're like bringing it up in a roundabout way. Mm-hmm. I don't know. Yeah. It's kind of like, how, how specific do you get? Right.

Kyson: 1:23:37

Because yeah, and I, I guess I would say I for sure when I have clients who have, are like really towards the end of their, not the end, but like they're really healing up, then it, it's not scary to talk about. It's like, oh, let's talk masculinity directly now. So I do that right now. A lot of my clients are in a starting place, so it is sort of like, it'd be like trying to talk about like hot air balloons, like something they don't quite have a grasp of in some ways. So yeah, I think we do like try to sprinkle in the, the principles and have'em start to wrestle with that stuff. Another thought that's right here with this is when I, you know, when I do teach masculine and feminine too, or like any of these principles, I do think I don't think there's a right way for a guy to be masculine, if that makes sense. Like. You know, if I'm talking, because I think that also is one of the, maybe this is why it feels triggering. One of the issues that a lot of men feel is there's this outsourcing again, of like, who I should be, I should be something outside of me. Whether it's, you know, like a guy that's cooler than me or taller than me or gets more girls than me. Or even I think there can even be a version of this that's like, oh, I need to be Jesus Christ, but I'm not him. Versus like, oh, what if I could be the highest version of me with Jesus Christ? You know, there's like a difference there. So, I do think like masculine and femin, I can still be like my highest masculine, but there may, there's still gonna be places where I bring in a fem a little bit of the feminine flow, right? Like, no one's gonna be a hundred percent one way or the other. And I think we're, so maybe that's the other way I have approached that is like, let's help you figure out the best version of you. One, one of the ways I've loved finding that, helping people find that balance is human design. Have you done human design? Are you familiar?

Kristen: 1:25:26

I have, yeah. I am familiar a little bit. I don't think we've talked about it on the podcast at all.

Kyson: 1:25:30

Oh, nice.

Kristen: 1:25:32

But, but yeah. It's, it's, I'm definitely familiar.

Kyson: 1:25:34

It's crazy. I mean, I'm not an expert. I am in training right now, getting certified, but I, I basically, anyone that's even possibly a tiny open to it, I'm like, let's do it right now. It's one of the most exciting ways of learning, learning about people that I've ever, ever seen. Tiny quick summary is, I say this as a joke at the start, like, oh, it's really stupid'cause it's based on your birthday. Super dumb. Just, you know, what the heck? And then right after that, it's also like the most accurate thing I've ever seen. I've taken, you know, you, you can spend 70 bucks to take like the Gallup strengths test and that'll get you really cool results. Well, all my Gallup strengths results are actually in my human design for free. You just look up, you know, look it up with your birthday. And I found the same results over there. So one of the cool things about it though is it's really to help you figure out like your, how your designed, right? So there will actually be some you know, masculine and feminine stuff that will show up in your chart. That's really fascinating. So yeah, I, I, I think that's been one of the coolest things is to help people again, like instead of outsourcing to turn inward and go, what am I meant to be? What am I here to create? How, what are my strengths? Yeah, I find so many cool, like all the guys I work with, it's so fun to see'em light up when they realize like, oh, I do have a strength underneath this struggle. You know, there's beautiful gifts and strengths everywhere, so.

Kristen: 1:26:57

No, that's cool. I love that. I feel like you bring a lot of different modalities and just like wisdom in and I think that's really cool. Like

Kyson: 1:27:07

I try to be super prepared. Yeah. Because some people don't wanna think about stuff in certain ways, you know? Scary to think about it from some, from a perspective they'd never considered. And so try to have a lot of tools.

Kristen (2): 1:27:19

Yeah, yeah. No, that's great.

Kristen: 1:27:22

I wanted to jump into like, is there, how can men, like, what can they do now to shift if they're in this place They don't wanna be with porn or, you know, some habits. What can they do?

Kyson: 1:27:36

Yeah, I have two thoughts. Kind of cookin'. Your question is like, what can men do to sort of like start,

Kristen: 1:27:44

start shifting their shifting, you know, the way they see themselves, whatever it is, you know, just kind of start shifting toward more what they are hoping for with their lives, I guess.

Kyson: 1:27:55

Yeah. I think it depends on where you're at. I'll give one that's like a super basic for those that are like,'cause okay, where I was back when my friend was like, oh, are, do you experience like shame? Or she also, I think another friend was like, you ever considered, you might have like a savior complex. And that was another one where I was like, what does that mean? Like, turns out that's like my whole life is trying to save everybody. I'd say if you're really, really early in your process, I'd say the very first step is you gotta just start practicing awareness. Like just start to to observe what you're thinking. You, you have to look at it, start, look at what you're thinking, look at what you're feeling. And just practice that.'cause for some of the guys, it's like, they've never ever done that. It's all bad. I'm not supposed to think that or feel that. And then boom, crap, I looked at porn again. Ah, this sucks. I hate myself. And then you just do it again. I shouldn't think that, I shouldn't feel that. And boom, back into porn. And so the tack, the tactic they're trying is just like the hold on tight white knuckle till they get to heaven or hell, I don't know, it's kinda a weird, it, it doesn't work, but that's what a lot of us try. So instead like slow down, give yourself some space to like think about what you think and to feel about what you feel just to observe. If you feel like you're already kind of in that state. I think, oh man, there's like, there's two thoughts. I think I'll start with the temptation. This is something I call the temptation equation. So, the temptation equation is kind of this way of understanding where every temptation comes from. And this is like temptation of any kind. So see how this feels to you. Anyone that's listening, I think that every temptation starts with a good desire. So that might sound counterintuitive, but first you start with a good desire plus a fear that you can't have that desire equals, or, you know, leads to temptation or like loopholes or false versions of that desire. So. Classic example, like, oh, I, I usually ask guys like, so have you ever felt tempted to rob a bank? I'm like, no, definitely not. Yeah, me neither. For me, it's because I, I desire money, right? To like, provide for my family, but I believe I can create that money. I haven't figured out how to create all the money I want, you know, I'm still working on that, but I believe that I can honestly go and create money in my life. I can get a job or create a business or whatever. Therefore I'm not tempted, you know, Satan's not putting in a temptation for me to rob banks because it has nothing to do with my desire, plus my fear. And so the same thing applies to pornography. Like there will be a good desire, like a truly good desire underneath your pornography struggle. And I would just invite men to start looking for what that is. What is the'cause typically, another like cultural thing we say about pornography is like, oh, if you're stressed or tired, or let's the other one stressed, tired, bored, or lonely. And, and they'll treat like, like, oh, those are the root causes. To me, those are not root causes at all. I think there's stuff way beneath that. And this is one of the ways to figure that out is to say, when, what's the good thing that I desire, that I'm afraid I can never have? And then how is porn plugging into that as a fake version of the desire? So, you know, it's good to have someone kind of coach you through. A place people can start. Just to give some ideas of things I found in myself and that my clients have found would be like a desire for like really close intimate connection where you can just be yourself. But most of my guys have a huge fear that if they're, if they are themselves, they're gonna get rejected. If they show what they really think and feel, their wife will reject them or won't love them, right? So, okay. I, I can't be myself. So the next best thing is, you know, whatever it is. Either, and, and I'll actually say it this way, the temptation isn't just pornography. The temptation is also to hide yourself. The temptation is to pretend to lie, you know, to act a certain way when other people are around, and then to change the way you act when they're not around. And you can see how that builds and builds to, like, pornography is a way you can get a pretend closeness where you can, you can fantasize about being loved for who you are, you know? And think of the sim, the symbol of taking your clothes off and being seen naked and still being wanted is totally a symbol for, I wish I could show my whole mind and my whole heart to someone and still be wanted. So that's just one example of like, I, I think the struggle with pornography will actually teach you some of the deepest things you've ever learned about yourself. You know, for the men out there and for women, if they struggle, but yeah. Any questions on that equation? Is that making sense? Did I say that in an okay way?

Kristen: 1:32:54

I think it makes sense. Yeah.'cause even like if you struggle with phone addiction, you know, like there's just so many, I always kind of think of like, whenever I'm wanting to like just numb or checkout or, or if I'm like wanting to emotionally eat or something, you know, it's kinda like, okay, what's really, what's really going on here? So I think

Audio Only - All Participants: 1:33:16

mm-hmm.

Kristen: 1:33:17

Asking yourself what the, what the good desire is, is another way to really get deep in there. Maybe deeper than, because sometimes I'm like, do I just need a hug? Do I just need to like? What, what's going on? But yeah, I love that. I think that makes a lot of sense I think that's very helpful.

Kyson: 1:33:34

Yeah. It's, it's been pretty eyeopening for me too, like, to use that with anything. If I'm angry at my kids or if I'm, you know, whatever thing I'm feeling, I'll just like loosely refer to that as the temptation. And then just like, what is the good desire? What I love about it is it, the starting point is the opposite of what we've been doing, which is, I'm bad and I shouldn't be wanting porn. Yeah. Instead the, the starting point is like, wait, I like, what if I'm actually really good? I'm like a divine being and I'm a child of God and I have a good desire that I've had for a long time. Maybe since the beginning I've had this good desire to be like in a connected relationship or, you know, I, I have a good, you know, I have a huge desire to whatever, have like a powerful life mission or change the world or whatever. But then as soon as you get that fear that you can't do it, then you'll start looking for like fake ways to do it. And so it's, it's cool if you can actually trace in, in that way. It actually allows you to like trace the temptation back to the good part of you or the good desire that you have. And as you walk it back and recommit to the desire. That's kinda like abundance, right? Mm-hmm. As you recommit to like, maybe I can create this desire with God then it changes, changes the equation and the temptation no longer comes in. So in a way, like if you, if you are willing to practice this pattern it's kind of, I jokingly say it's like in your face to Satan.'cause anytime he brings up temptation, I'm gonna be like, oh wait, I'm feeling tempted. Alright, let me figure out my fear and my desire, and then boom, I'm gonna go shift. So it's, that's another very masculine way to take that, right? Instead of like running and hiding from temptation and, oh, I shouldn't feel this way. I actually, like, I literally picture in my mind when temptation comes up, I like turn and face it. I'm like, wait, what is this? I want you to show me what's really here. And then I, you know, for me, I go to my higher power and say, can you teach me how to crack this open? I know there's something good at the bottom of this temptation. There's a good desire in here. And I, I have found it like on every temptation possible, there is always a good desire. I think that's how temptation works. Like it's literally the equation. And so it becomes such a cool way to overpower the darkness in your life. And just say, anytime the temptation comes in, I will turn, face it and like learn about myself and then recommit to the de, the good desire. And boom, it's a cool process.

Kristen: 1:36:07

I feel like it sucks all the shame out of it for one thing. Yeah. Then it's also kind of, to me, I feel like God will alchemize everything for our good. And it's really hard to see that sometimes, but I feel like that process helps you see like, oh, this is what this is teaching me and this is how I can flip it on its head and shift it, shift it around.

Kyson: 1:36:28

Yeah. So fun. I like that word too, that God alchemizes turns it all to good because yeah, we've done so much of like, oh, I'm bad if I think this way. Or, that's a bad emotion, eh, I don't know if that's true. It's all, it's all something, you know?

Audio Only - All Participants: 1:36:43

Yeah.

Kyson: 1:36:44

Everything is something, but then if you're willing to look at it from the right angle, God will teach you about everything you face.

Kristen: 1:36:51

Yeah. No, I love that. Yeah. Was there any other, anything else with the

Kyson: 1:36:57

oh yeah. The question of, remind me of the question one more time.

Kristen: 1:37:01

Just like, what can, what can you do right now to shift things?

Kyson: 1:37:05

Right. Okay. So yeah, I'd say step one is start looking at those temptations as an opportunity to learn about your desire. Another great one is. It's basically back to what I said before, but you, you've gotta start asking questions that you haven't asked before. So if you feel like you can, you know, be prayerful, like that's one of my favorite prayers to God is like, can you give me a question that I've never asked? Or can you help me ask the right question in this moment? If you struggle with that, getting, getting the right questions, like talk to someone you trust or come talk to me, whatever. But one of the coolest questions that I would invite you to look at and maybe just to journal on if you can like, slow down a little bit and figure out, you know, let's say like if you're still struggling with porn on a regular basis try to get honest with yourself and ask like, what are you actually looking for?'cause if you were finding it, you wouldn't keep, you wouldn't need to keep going back. Do you know what I mean? Mm-hmm. Like if I was like looking for a car and I got a car, I'd be done after I got the car. But the fact that you keep going back means you're looking for something that you're not finding. And so, it's, it is, it's honestly a pretty similar question, right? It's like, what do you desire and what are you afraid you can't actually get? But it's a, a little bit different perspective on that. That's like. It's kind of weird to say it this way, but like, it's almost like practicing self-awareness about what, what are you actually thinking when you're looking at porn? And I'm not suggesting like, Hey, go look at porn and notice what you think more like go to last time. And just like, what am I searching? Why am I searching it? How am I searching it? I've got a lot of guys who do this thing where like, oh, I scroll through social media and I'm kind of secretly hoping something pops up. It's like, dude, that's a symbol for something. The like, notice why you're doing it that way. Do you think it's better if it just pops up to you or are you, is there this metaphor in your life of like, the world is happening to me? Or is that a symbol for not wanting to work for love? And maybe a woman could just show up and be like, Hey, you're awesome. I want to, I want to love you. You know what I mean? Like I'm saying non sexually. Is that a symbol for just actually being okay as you are? I don't know. There's, there's stuff to learn from it. I would invite. People out there to like, look at, what are you thinking about when you're, when you watch, like are you fantasizing about like, wow, if I could be loved like that, or Wow, if I could just have someone adore me, or are you thinking about, wow, I wish I could be confident with my body. Like, those are the real things we're trying to figure out. So let's go build confidence with the body. Let's go, you know, figure out how to create those desires in a way that's tangible and real instead of living in fantasy land where you're gonna have to keep, coming back over and over forever unless something changes like that really is the pattern of porn. You can never, it will never, ever satisfy. You know, there's like however many millions of hours of porn that get created every year, and it will not satisfy a single person. And so, you know, and I, that's not at all with a shame tone there. That's like a, it's sort of like a wake up and like, why don't we look at what you're trying to satisfy? That's really the question. So,

Audio Only - All Participants: 1:40:22

yeah.

Kyson: 1:40:23

Yeah. I, I feel like the only other thing I was gonna say in like a crash course kind of thing was just like the dr the drama triangle. Can I talk about that for a sec?

Kristen (2): 1:40:32

Yeah.

Kyson: 1:40:34

Okay, so we talked about the three, like accountable, vulnerable, and abundant. Let's like package those up and toss'em over here for a second. The other way to start changing things is to look at your relationships probably your most important ones. And I want to, I wanna share a thing called the drama triangle. It's a way to understand the dynamics in your relationships. When we're in drama, there's basically three roles that we play. That's why it's a triangle. Three points. And so you've got the hero trying to save everybody, the victim, where you're like giving up accountability or you're blaming other people. And then the villain where you're like in bad guy mode, like trying to hurt people or punish them or punish yourself. And what's interesting is. If you, you know, if you take a minute and think through like your last several days, or last time you had a hard conversation with your spouse or whatever you may notice that you're in the drama triangle quite a bit. Either choosing to rescue someone else from their feelings like the hero trying to get rid of the accountability and say, oh, it's not my fault that I, you know, it's not my fault I'm this way, or that life is this way, I'm the victim. Or to be in villain mode, which is like usually more like bitterness, like, oh, I can't believe you did that to me. Now you know, now I'm gonna insult you or hurt you back, or make you feel bad. And, and what you'll notice is those three roles are very powerless ways to interact. It's like they're almost all attempts to grab power. Like even the, the hero, oh, I guess I'll say this, the hero. It's tempting to think that the hero is the good one. But if you think about, I picture like the classic Batman movie, like, let's think about the patterns of what a hero experiences. The hero wears a mask, so it kind of hides his identity. The hero is usually alone trying to do everything on their own. The hero, like even when they do a ton, they usually don't feel appreciated. People will often actually paint them as the bad guy, you know, like Batman, like, oh, stop trying to save us, you know, you're ruining things or whatever. And so when that happens, that's when the hero will slide to either the victim or the villain, right? Batman goes into like, well, forget you guys. I'm gonna just like do what I want. Or he might go to victim and be like, fine, I'm not gonna help anymore. You know, I'm just gonna be sad in my house, or whatever. And so that, that's the idea, is I'm kind of, I would invite you to just look for when you switch roles or when, when do you go into one of those three roles. And to realize that that's another, that's like a cycle of powerlessness, of just like I'm trying to grab power by shifting the dynamic. And we can go way deeper into that on a, in a one-on-one conversation sometime, but what's cool? Once you start to identify where you're doing the drama triangle the way to get out of drama is actually those three principles from before accountability, vulnerability, and abundance. And I'll, I'll help you plug them in real quick. Like, think about the hero for a sec. I know it's a lot to digest, but the hero wears a mask. And the antidote for the hero is actually to take off the mask and be vulnerable and to, to show your cards. It's that same thing. Let me tell you what I'm actually feeling. Lemme tell you what's actually going on in my mind. The, and can you hear how much pow more powerful that is? Like, let me just be honest. Let me tell you the truth. The victim needs to take accountability, right?'cause they're trying to put it, put the blame on everyone else. That one's pretty obvious. The victim needs to say, okay, I can be accountable for my emotions and my choices. It, you know, I chose to come to Earth, or I chose to get married, or I chose to be in this family. I chose to drive a car today, so I'm not a victim when I got in a car accident. I chose. I mean, it still sucks, but I chose to be here. And then the villain, this one is like one of my favorite breakthroughs when I realized that every villain, think of every movie, ever, every villain is actually stuck in scarcity, believing that they can't have the thing they desire. Can you hear the, how we're back to the, the temptation equation, right? Like, I can't have the thing I desire, so I need to get it in a fake way. I need to take it, I need to force it on people. I need to hurt other people to get what I want. So every villain is stuck in scarcity. And so the antidote is actually to be abundant or to choose to practice abundance, which for, if, if anyone out there doesn't love that word abundance, some people are like, what's that? It sounds too hippie. It's really just like confident that you can create. So every villain is, is insecure in their creative ability. And to step out of that is, is to practice being confident that you can create. And so like if I, I, I say this to some, to people sometimes. Like, if I were to die right now and I couldn't help any more clients, like I would totally say please just like get a group together and talk about the drama triangle and the three antidotes. Just like learn about how to step outta drama, how to notice when you're in drama and step out into accountable, vulnerable, abundant. And yeah, that's, that has changed every relationship I've ever been in. It's all, it's all different because I started to practice that.

Kristen: 1:45:58

Oh, that's awesome. It feels very complete. Like when you brought the last piece together and linked it back. I was like, oh yeah, this, this makes sense. And I'm kind of excited to go apply it to my own life. Like, nice. Yeah. That's cool. That's very cool.

Kyson: 1:46:14

I'm so grateful. Yeah. I, I'm really grateful to get to share that. That's one of my favorite things that I've ever learned. The drama triangle is something that's out there and talked about quite a bit. Mm-hmm. But one time I had a client after I taught him the drama triangle,'cause I usually will say all this stuff, like, oh, you just need to go. Like, this is the solution. Go practice your desires. Or like, I didn't know exactly what to say and then he was like, how do I get out? I'm in drama all day. How do I get out? And I was like, dude, that's such a beautiful question. And I, I literally just heard in my mind the three words, vulnerable, accountable, abundant. I feel like God just was like, here you go. And ever since then I've been learning about why that's true. Like, what do these mean? How do I apply them? How do I practice'em? So I'm grateful it connected for you.

Kristen: 1:46:59

Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's really cool. So if we have people in our life, like friends or family who are dealing with this that have like. Been vulnerable with us. I don't know if you have any thoughts on like, how we can support them or show up for people or,

Kyson: 1:47:15

yeah, I mean, first, right, is like, do you do need to take care of yourself? So if you're, if you're like the wife of a husband and if it's triggering the crap out of you, I'd say don't, don't pretend. Like it doesn't just say like, this is really hard for me to talk about. I want to talk more after I get some help for myself. Or, you know, like, give yourself space. It's okay for it to be hard for you. And then if you, for someone who is in more of a, like a neutral, like, Hey, I'm just here to support I think, you know, I'm, I'm always down for like, share one of these principles with them, you know, share like the temptation equations, very simple. Desire, fear, temptation. And I, I hate to just say the most obvious thing in the world, but I think just love, love'em and be willing to, to support. But then also like maybe helping them practice some of like practice accountability. You know, help helping coach them through, you know, like just notice, like be willing to listen with love and then also like be willing to point out with love. Like, Hey, I don't think this the way you're talking about that, I don't think that's true. If, if you're gonna get into the, into the trenches with them and really discuss it. And then I'd say that if you want to go for another really simple one, it's just like, try to help'em, let go of the shame. It's just not, you know, the shame is never gonna work. So invite'em to step into something different and just love the heck out of them.

Kristen: 1:48:49

All right. One more question I, I like to ask everybody that's on, if they have a book or a resource that they'd recommend to, just whoever's listening can be related to what we were talking about or not. But just something to share. I want this to be a good resource for people, this podcast.

Kyson: 1:49:03

Nice. Yeah. I have a, I have an online course mm-hmm. That has all this stuff in depth. It's, it's also a, like, it's a work in progress as in that makes it sound like it's not finished. More like, I'm always updating to make sure it's got like the most core principles. So I, I have that available and then I have like a free part of it that's like the bare bones that you can get anytime. So that's on my website Kysonkidd.com and you'll just go like there to courses and you can hop in and sign up. So that's awesome. And then I'm trying to think what other. I'd say most, mostly that I've, that course is just awesome. It'll give you like questions to ponder. It's all video course so that you can actually just watch a video instead of like, have to read. I hate reading. So that's why I did that. And then I'd say the other other resource would be just reach out for a free consultation. I have a lot of people, like My intention is just to like actually help people, you know? So I had a guy reach out like a year and a half after our first free call. We just did a free call and that was it. And he sent me a hundred bucks to say thanks.'cause he is like, dude, I've been off of porn for a year and a half. Like from our phone call. I was like, really? I had no idea, man. So, you know, I'm down to just, I just help people and if we end up being a great fit for coaching, awesome. We can talk about that. My goal is really just to have an impact and help people get free from, from the, the porn free from the stuff. So.

Kristen: 1:50:31

Wonderful. Awesome. And then do you wanna go over really quickly just how is the website the best way to get in touch with you? What are your socials? How do people find you?

Kyson: 1:50:42

Yeah what are your

Kristen: 1:50:43

offerings too? Like what are all your offerings?

Kyson: 1:50:46

Yeah, my website is great. It's got like con a contact thing and you can set up the free calls and stuff. You can also reach out to my socials. I'm just Kyson Kidd everywhere. So yeah, you can reach out. The, the main things I offer would be like coaching on any subject too, if you like the way I think and talk about stuff, like I coach around anxiety. I've done stuff around OCD healthy boundaries with family. Overcoming manipulation, that's a huge one lately is like, oh, my parents are manipulative. How do I, whatever my sister's manipulative. So that kind of stuff. So just general coaching. I also do a thing called soul songs where I create a song for you kind of like download a song to help you with whatever you're wanting to grow and, and heal. So I'll do a little bit of coaching mixed with the music there. And what's, I guess, something worth mentioning with my coaching, I'm kind of in an interesting place the last six or eight months where I've shifted away from the rigid structure of like, this is how much I charge and what I actually place first is like, are we a great fit? Like, do I feel like this is a, a win, right? Is this a win for me? Is it a win for you? Are we supposed to work together? And then from there we can decide on a price. I usually present that with the tone of like, what do you feel inspired to invest in yourself? And I'll do my, you know, if, if I feel like it's a great fit, then we'll create a situation where we can work together. So for anyone that feels called to check that out, I'd love to talk with you. I feel like at every, every coaching call, every conversation just feels like a miracle to me. It's so fun to, to get, to help people see themselves, to allow them to be vulnerable, to take accountability, to shift. It's just a, it's an awesome journey. So yeah, if anyone feels called to that, I'd love to work with you. And then with my Soul songs, I do have a little more of a pricing because it takes like 10 hours, but that, that's something that's been really fun to create for people too. So yeah, anyone can hit me up. I'd love to work with you.

Kristen: 1:52:47

Awesome. Yeah. Thank you so much. And we'll link everything below, but yeah. Thanks a million for talking to me. What? Did you have one? Yeah. You're

Kyson: 1:52:56

so welcome. I just remembered one other offering that is very free, super accessible, is just my music. I forgot to talk about that. Oh. So I just have a lot of like, healing meditative music, feel good music. It's kind of imagine like yoga, meditation, music that's like still really relatable. It's not too spacey, you know, like it's very, like, you can actually feel it very tangible. So that's all under Kyson Kidd. And then I have another project healers, the Healer's Playlist, so I can get you links for both of those. Yeah.

Kristen: 1:53:26

Awesome. Well, thanks so much. I, this is just, I'm hoping this will just create a lot of good for people and I'm just so grateful to have you on.

Kyson: 1:53:36

Yeah, thank you Kristen. It's been way fun.

1:53:39

Thank you so much for listening. If you are enjoying wholly empowered, share it with that friend or on your socials. You can also hit the follow button if you want to keep up with the latest episodes. Until next time, stay empowered.