Outdoor Guru Paul LaFrance Explains Why Great Design Starts With Your Story

Your home can be more than a place you sleep and store your stuff. It can be the place that helps you recover. We sit down with outdoor designer and TV personality Paul LaFrance to talk about the idea he keeps coming back to: “investing in rest” through thoughtful backyard design, outdoor living spaces, and rooms that make you exhale the second you step outside. 

The conversation starts with the personal side. Paul shares how his ADHD brain pushes him toward meaningful work, real enthusiasm, and deep curiosity about people’s stories. That becomes the foundation of what he calls design psychology: learning how you actually live, where you naturally sit, what you avoid, what you crave, and what your space needs to protect. From tiny “postage stamp” decks to full backyard transformations, he argues that great design is never one-size-fits-all because people are never one-size-fits-all. 

Then we get into the practical trend reshaping neighborhoods: accessory dwelling units (ADUs), garden suites, and backyard suites. Paul explains how homeowners can use an ADU to create rental income, support family, and build resilience during uncertain economic times. We also unpack fear disguised as practicality, why stress and burnout are now default settings for so many of us, and how nature-forward choices like lighting, fire, water, and privacy can turn a yard into a true outdoor oasis. 

If you want smarter backyard ideas, clearer ADU thinking, and a more human approach to design, hit play. Subscribe, share this with a friend who needs a breather, and leave a review with the one outdoor feature you would actually use most.

Transcript

Meet Paul LaFrance

SPEAKER_02 0:00

If you spend any time watching outdoor design shows, you already know his work. Paul de France has built a reputation for taking most of what most people see as a simple backyard and turning it into something that actually changes how you live. He's not just building decks, he's building spaces where people gather, unwind, reconnect, and in a lot of cases, completely rethink of what home feels like. So I want to introduce to you HDTV personality and outdoor guru Paul LaFrance. How are you doing?

SPEAKER_00 0:31

I am doing wonderful. That's uh that the the intros always make me sound like I'm some sort of superhero. You know, I just feel like I should be standing there wearing spandex with my hands on my hips.

SPEAKER_02 0:43

Oh, come on, Paul. You're unforgettable. Like you really had you you really were magnetizing on decked out. You just you just knew your stuff, you coordinated things well, and you made homeowners happy. And you created amazing designs.

SPEAKER_00 1:00

I and thank you. And I think for me, the the ADHD brain factor, which is a whole other thing. And I do

ADHD And The Need For Meaning

SPEAKER_00 1:10

a lot of I do a lot of talking about it and I and you know, speaking with people about who have this particular kind of brain, which is actually more along the lines of being a remnant from like the hunter-gatherer. Like, you know, there was a study done on the on the brain that that is now the antithesis of the standard ADHD, you know, uh moniker, which is the hunter and gatherer cultures, when that stopped, those that were hunters, the remnants of those, of those hunter brains, is what is classified as ADHD today. And so what that means is like typically we're like how you have a bunch of hunters living in a farmer's world, which makes it very, if you're not aware of this, you will definitely feel like a fish out of water a lot of the times. Because all of those kind of qualities, they really lend to like, you know, if you're highly distracted and, you know, have bad time management and all of these things that that tie in with ADHD. If you're a hunter, they are all the things that actually would apply. But the reason how it works, how that's worked out for me is is one of the things that that you can't do is you can't do something that you don't enjoy. Absolutely. Your your brain will simply not allow you to do something that you hate. And and and it's very and it's impossible to to fake enthusiasm, such as, or, or not really be authentic, such as, you know, having the background that I had on before. And I'm like, I can't deal with this anymore because it doesn't feel real, right? Yeah. So so I I do enjoy that part, but I mean, for the most part, that part of my brain also was like the greatest fear in life is being bored and and not doing something that doesn't have any meaning to it. And so to be able to do what I've done was about as for me, it was necessary just to be. It was necessary for being and you know, and the fact that I still do this. Yeah, because there's no way I'd be doing what I've been doing, be doing for 30 years if I didn't really enjoy it. Exactly. I would it would be impossible for me to do so if I didn't legitimately really dig people and find them fascinating. I think I'm the only normal one. I think everyone else is, you know, is deserving of study, you know.

SPEAKER_02 3:26

You know, it's funny because I have noticed a lot of people over 50 actually getting diagnosed with ADHD. And it's kind of cool that you've recognized it, taking your passion, what makes you happy, and wake up in the morning with a smile on your face. So early, you know, earlier in life and actually recognize it and acknowledge it. And you know, it's kind of meant, it's not kind of, it is mental health awareness month. And you know, just finding your groove and finding what your passion is in life, and again, what makes you wake up in the morning with a smile on your face is such an important thing, but you have to understand yourself in order to keep it going.

SPEAKER_00 4:03

You you nailed it, and that's like and I and I I talk about that topic a lot. And say, like just the there's a there's an old uh quote by Dr. Howard Thurman, who was you know a right-hand mandal like Martin Luther King, and and and he had this line that's a donut this quote that said, Don't don't ask yourself what the world needs from you. Instead, ask yourself what makes you come alive and go and do that, because what the world really needs are men and women that have come alive. And I I that's I was that was told to me at you know 18 years old by my English teacher, who's while the Gestapo was coming to kick me out of out of school, he said, Well, Paul, you we we knew you weren't gonna fit. You know, we knew you weren't gonna last very long in this, in this, in this system. And so this is what you got to do. And if you had told me at that point that from a vocational perspective, that I would have been doing renovations, right? Because I'm obviously I'm known as the deck guy, but I've been doing interiors and I'm now far more focused even on on the interiors and on on building like things like ADUs and uh things that will allow people to to have their property you know, make money for them, you know, particularly at a time when you know the economy is not exactly thriving. But if I didn't, if I wasn't enjoying it, I'd be a very my wife would have thrown me off a cliff a very long time ago, but she would have been like, you're way too miserable a person to be around. So, so but one of the key shifts on that line about finding out what you love and going and doing it is is just one very simple truth, and that is at the end of the day, you could be doing what you love, but unless you've discovered the thing that gets you up in the morning that has nothing to do with you, the thing that gets you up in the morning that is about improving somebody else's life. Well, yeah, but you'll just find yourself feeling as you know purposeless and uh as any as the average adult, right?

SPEAKER_02 6:10

You know, yeah. Well, and you know, we all go through hurdles in life, and you know, with with with myself, I look at the magazine as helping readers. I love talking to people, I love us, you know, socializing people, and I feel like this is a great opportunity to get not necessarily my own voice, but voices of people that I respect and and I and I feel positive with to share their insight and and knowledge as well. So I get what you're saying. And what is what is ADU?

SPEAKER_00 6:40

Oh, accessory dwelling units. So for instance, you know, in in the in the backyard space, you know, there's the

ADUs And Backyard Income

SPEAKER_00 6:52

the major focus right now that I've been doing is is kind of redefining the backyard bunky, for instance, right? Where it's the so like for instance in Toronto, we have a housing crisis. And in 2022, there was a law that was passed that allowed in Toronto for you to take your average residential home and not just have a secondary potential for a rental unit for an income property, but four, most people don't even know this. So you can have a basement, an addition, and a and a like a garden suite, right? And all four could be you could be income generating elements to your own residential home. And this is what this is one of the ways to be able to handle the fact that we know we've we're bringing in, you know, we it it's I am I am I'm all I'm all for for benefiting from the minds of other people from other countries, but when there's nowhere for anyone to live, exactly, it may create a bit of a problem. And as as many, you know, as as opposing parties to political parties. I don't care about any of that shit. But but this is a very real crisis. Like when when you can't find a place to live and then a rental, you know, rent my my daughter looking for you know, looking for a place to rent, and she she might as well buy a house for the amount of money that she's being charged for rent. Like is it, but she can't buy a house because she doesn't have the like you know, that whole thing. So the purpose it is, and so the ADUs, these these like basically accessory dwelling units or ancillary dwelling units. I'm trying to remember what the A specifically said, I really should know this. Uh but it's still the morning, so I give myself some flight. So it but outside of Toronto, still the majority of areas will allow three. And most people don't even realize this. That even on their own property, that you know, what would what could be like a what would have been just like, hey, I'm building a pool cabana at a time when you know discretionary spending is people aren't really doing that right now. They've been they haven't been doing that for years. They were spending like crazy during COVID. But because there was like, hey, we are all at home, but now all of a sudden the recovery from COVID is interest rates had to spike to control inflation. I understand why we had to do that. But then unfortunately, you have this, you know, you have this period of time where people are like, now I've raised my price so high. So, you know, I mean, so many companies out there were just how do I put this bluntly, colossally fucking stupid. Because they just took advantage of people and like and like raised their prices through the roof. And they're out of business now. And I have I don't feel like you're just stupid, like because you don't have long-term thinking. You don't, you don't, you don't, you don't take advantage of the more the people that take advantage of people in a in a desperate situation, what goes around comes around.

SPEAKER_02 9:53

You know what? It really is. Like you just don't you just don't do that.

SPEAKER_00 9:57

You just don't do that, right? Just don't. And so so now, you know, it was kind of very frustrating because you know the the interest rate hype did its thing, but then it but then all of a sudden, you know, we have new global concerns where you've got, you know, uh you you could decide to use this or not, but you have, you know, a a megalomaniac running the the world and threatening to take over our country. And and you know, it's like it's like there's a you know, there's my one of my favorite comedians like, there's a horse loose in the hospital.

SPEAKER_02 10:34

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's very good.

SPEAKER_00 10:38

And uh what's the horse gonna do in the hospital? You know, and while that's happening, you know, everyone does what what they normally do when there's a horse loose in the hospital, is you hold on to your money because you don't know what's gonna happen. And right now, I have like I I across the board, I've been talking to so many guys, and they're like, yeah, it's it's a it hasn't the the mortgage crisis of 2008 wasn't this bad. You know, it's like because nobody wants everyone's everyone's freaked out.

SPEAKER_02 11:13

Yeah, right. I I think the world is since COVID and with what you were just talking about, it's like yeah, the world is at a standstill, if you will. Like just kind of everyone's a shut up and wait.

SPEAKER_00 11:25

And yeah, and that's but that's why it's fun. So for me, I'm like, you know, I'm like, well, I'm my philosophy in life is a is has always been if something is is is scaring you, if there's any part of your life that's being ruled by fear, you gotta you can't you don't just let it sit there like a tumor, you know, and grow. But but but most people do.

SPEAKER_02 11:51

You gotta go, of course.

SPEAKER_00 11:52

You gotta, yeah. Like for me, I'm running out of it. Like, and that's and it me too. Well, I mean, look at you did. I mean,

Fear, Money, And Taking Risks

SPEAKER_00 12:00

just even doing the magazine, it's always like most people are held back by the fear of failure. Like, what if it doesn't work? And then how's it gonna affect me emotionally? And it's like, or or it's like if you're not doing one thing every day that makes your ass pucker, then you're not really living, right? That's like uh that's a great, you know, that's one of the things I want to instill in the girls, right? Yeah, and that I you know that we've been doing for years. And so so it's like, okay, well, let's look at this. You know, how do we how what is the pulse of people right now? What what what is a is a way to connect with what people want that I would still enjoy? And I'm like, well, since I've spent 30 years doing interiors and exteriors and bringing the indoors out and the outdoors in, and you know, and and in that realm, where what I would really rather be doing, to be again to full transparency, is is is is full-time counseling, you know. I my great, my great joy is is finding my own personal lie, which is ease people's pain. If you can, if you can take your own experience and you can sit with people and help them through what they're going through, help them see things, that's great. The problem is I have a very difficult time being like, and now we're gonna sit for an hour, and then you're gonna pay me on the way out, and I'm gonna be like, I'm glad we opened a lot up with you about you and your father. And now, good luck. I'll see you next week. Try not to drive into a hydro pole, like it's not very unusual. So I can't I can't see myself ever doing that vocationally. So I'm like, okay, so I still love doing this. So if I can take the design side of my Peter Pan brain plus the Scottish side of me, which is arguing with the Peter Pan and being like, but can we be creative and practical at the same time? Well, I've spent 30 years doing that. And so how how can you now take all that joy and be like for for an individual person to say, hey, that money that you're not spending discredit, like that you're not spending on the vacation or or or creating the oasis in the backyard? Maybe it's a different demographic, maybe it's the same person. I don't care. The point is, can I, is it just as fun for me to be able to say, hey, we're gonna take you know your home and we're gonna say, we're gonna create a three-way, you know, three forms of income for you now, you know, whether it's you know, whether it's two or three, and allow your investment that you've worked so hard to to have and maintain and blah blah blah, you know, gain equity in or pay off the mortgage, whatever it is. And now you can have that, you know, earning money for you. And particularly in demographics where people are going through exactly what we're going through. Like the kids have now like they're like leaving, you know. Yeah, you know, and and it's like it's like, oh, it's fairly quiet around here. There's it's a whole new avenue, but people still need to be educated. I had I spent so many years just educating people on the what the backyard could be. Yeah. You know, that's interesting. I and I still love that. I'd still love that. But it's almost like a new, it's like, it's like there's a new stage for you, Paul. Oh, come stand over here. And I'm like, very well, let's let's have let's discuss, you know, the the the accessory dwelling unit and and how you can basically have your mortgage being paid off by you know these places in your backyard. And then it and then when the time comes, you have now you know a family suite in the backyard, you have like a whole other place back there that you can either have continue to rent out or you can have it for yourself. It's it's but it's a it's a different thread, but it meets where people are at, right?

SPEAKER_02 15:36

Yeah, well, and my friend actually when you talk like it, my friend, I'm just thinking about my friend, she lives in Lucan, Ontario, and she has exactly what you're talking about. You know, she generates income from it. You know, when it's empty, family comes and stays, and they have an extra. When I go down and see her, I stay there. And it's like, you know, it's it's such it's such a I I'm trying to think of smaller backyards, but she has a ginormous one. But you can still do it, right?

SPEAKER_00 16:01

I'm sure you have to kind of really I have way more fun in the smaller backyards. Do you? Yeah, I can imagine. The smaller backyards, some of my favorite all-time designs are in the are in the postage stamp backyard space. That is because you're talking about being able to take something that is and and make it into a total transformation, right? And and one of those happened to be on a show, like you know, people you know forget the ones I did on the show are like are like a minute, a small very small percentage of the ones that I built, you know, in over 30 years. Yeah. And but that, you know, the the 35-foot deep by 13-foot wide pressure-treated deck over a parking garage with a 40-foot warehouse in behind in a row of townhouses with absolutely no privacy, you know, with a with a rickety pressure-treated fence as as your you know, your dividing line between you and the neighbors who all have the same, it looked like military barracks, you know, like to be able to take that project, and I talk about this one all the time, you know, and connect with you know, with Ron and Jess Breet, my my owners. And this is, you know, this is going back it was it was a a hot minute ago. And for them to be able to say, like, you know, you're you're asking us very personal questions, but I'm like, yes, this is what I do. And like, you know, where did you guys meet? You know, and it's and I love the story. It's like we met in a, you know, we met in South Miami Beach. And I'm like, well, why do you like South Miami Beach? So like, we go back there every year. And I'm like, why? And they're like, because we love the cabanas by day and the and the nightclubs at night. And I'm like, excellent. Let's turn this 13-foot by 35-foot, you know, ridiculously ugly, useless backyards, backyards, but not even a backyard. It's like a hovering pressure-treated, you know, raft, you know, a hideous warehouse with maybe a spot of sky with zero privacy. And let's turn this into a South Miami Beach nightclub, compete with, you know, complete with cabana and and taboo. We'll put we'll put in, we'll make we'll make the what was the old pressure-treated fence, we'll turn those into uh privacy screens that look like you can walk through them into another dimension, just for kicks. Let's add that. And they're like, and they're like, are you insane? And I'm like, probably. The jury's out, you know. And and and when I and when they came out and saw this, this small space was so utterly transformed that you you couldn't, you would never have known what it was before. There's no eye being drawn to the 40-foot warehouse. You know, you have these these customized screens that are coming in over the top that give you the privacy. The walls with the stone and the cabana as the as the as the feature at the back, you know, the lighting at night, the full extension of the not a completed gets like, but it's there's no no there's no difference between that space and the hundreds and hundreds of tiny spaces where people are like, ah, what could we possibly do back here? I'm like, oh, that's where you can have the most fun. Yeah, the smaller spaces.

SPEAKER_02 19:19

And that's what I've always liked about you. Like in watching this show, it's like, okay, he's not gonna be able to do anything. This is a disaster, it's swampland, it's it's whatever. And it's like you transform it from this like unbelievable wreck to something that like you you want summer to be extended. You want, you know, you want fall to become summer, spring to be, you just can't wait to be outside. And that's that's the cool part. You have that vision, and I think that is your like you say, it's your passion. It's you know, and and also the ADUs. I mean, it's I can sense the passion in your voice in all taking a bad situation where we're in right now and turning it into something promising. And it's great to have that vision. I just have to compliment you on that because thank you. Negativity is all around us. It is. And when you look at someone like yourself that goes, no, this is possible. And I think that's a great, it's a great, it's a great personality trait to have inspires others.

SPEAKER_00 20:21

I think I and I I thoroughly appreciate that. I it I I think there's another factor to with regards to to to the many, many, many, many people who fall into this category where they're not looking at you know creating a rental space in the backyard, but they're just like there's the freight, you know. And it's like, I would love to do this, but it doesn't make sense. And you know, there's a line, there was a great quote. It was a I think it was a Jim Carrey speech that he did at a school years ago, and I absolutely love this this speech he did. But one of the lines he said was because most people live their lives through fear, disguised as practicality. And I was like, oh, that's a bumper sticker if I ever heard one. That's that's fantastic. And and I kind of you know, uh really rumbled around in my head for a while, and and which kind of ended in this like

Invest In Rest For Health

SPEAKER_00 21:20

this invest in rest philosophy. And I'm like, it's kind of it was it was just something that recently kind of came to me, which is what I've been promoting for 30 years. But now it's even more relevant for those that are just like uh you know, but before COVID hit, we were already living in the fastest moving culture in the history of humanity. People were already well into the realm of developing stress related diseases that we didn't have before, you know, because we're just not created to go this fast. Created to have our minds bombarded the way that it's been. This is not normal. Like if you look throughout the millennia, this is not the way that human beings were engineered to function. And because of that, we have this, you know, where it's like the frog in the boiling water, you know, uh scientific test where you know if you put a frog into boiling water, it's like, I have adverse feelings about this whole situation and we'll jump out. But if you put a frog into lukewarm water and slowly turn the heat up, it just sits there and boils to death, you know, and that's like welcome to life, you know, where we're all just like this is just the norm. And so when you're hit every day and it's fear and fear and uncertainty and fear, and it's like, and the tension levels are rising. And this is scientific, too. People's cortisol levels are through the roof. And because of that, like our bodies are all inflamed, and then you're, you know, and then we're like, oh my god, I gotta go to the gym. And then I'm going to the gym, and like nothing's helping. And it's like the issue is stress.

SPEAKER_02 23:00

It is, it is tension is killing us. Because I gotta go to the gym, and then all of a sudden, as I gotta go to the doctor, I find that like that has I that has escalated tenfold since COVID. Then I hear that as well. And the stress level is high. The life is life is very difficult right now. But that being said, I mean, there's there's uh there's people like you that's out there, and there is a lot that instills positivity, trying to look at the bright side of things. And I think, you know, I our our our conversation was supposed to be deck trends, but this is far more interesting because it's more my wheelhouse.

unknown 23:40

Perfect.

SPEAKER_02 23:40

Yeah, and it's you know, I do feel that that that there's a shift coming, I think, but anything good takes time. Anything good takes time, you know, what you're growing, what you're building, what you're doing, what I'm doing. I feel that we we we grow at a pace that that that's necessary. I think COVID really made us stand back and relax, but then the the repercussions of it all made us a little stressed, and it's caused a lot of people to stay in their homes. But you know, I do think in time that you know, anything good, slow, slow progression. Hopefully, we can see all this this this madness that we spoke about disappear sooner than later so we can get back on a healthy track.

SPEAKER_00 24:25

Yeah, and I you know, it's I I think that I think I think we need crisis. I wouldn't change COVID because of what it did for people. Like so many people ended up being like, it's like they woke up from a dream. You know, I preached for years about like like waiting for the world to stop so that we could actually stop and look around and be like, you know, we got to get some perspective, which is why I've loved what I've been doing, particularly in the backyard space, because I'm like creating places of rest for people in a world that's gone crazy. That's been my line forever. Yeah, and and then COVID happened, and I was like, when I talked about the world stopping, I didn't mean like actually stopping. Not literally. I was like, did I do this? You know, did I speak this into existence with my uber positivity? But but it's the amount of stories that I've heard of how so many people have been like, I was it's like I woke up one day and went, like, I've I've been doing this job that I hate for 30 years, you know what I mean? Like, I don't even like doing this. And I've always wanted to do this, and now I'm at home being like, it's like they're looking around and like you know, they it's like these, you know, they they they've taken these like blinders off and they're they're suddenly looking around and be like, when did my life become something that is the complete opposite of what I dreamed of or what I wanted? Yeah. And oh yeah, I remember I realized this years ago, but I was like, well, I made the same insane decision that the majority of people do. But like, well, I've got a house now and car payments, and and so I have to, I obviously have to continue to do what I've discovered I hate doing for the rest of my life. Otherwise, you know, I'm gonna lose, you know, the things that I built. It's like, let's take a step back from that. And COVID allowed a lot of people to do this and be like, do you realize how stupid that is? So you're in order to like maintain like stuff that doesn't mean anything, has nothing to do with your happiness. It just has to do with like some general sense of security. You know, would you rather be living in the back of a camper and doing what you absolutely love to do than have your palational house and be miserable? Like it just makes no sense. But this that's our programming. That's our that's our cultural programming.

SPEAKER_02 26:45

And I think it comes to fear, like like I think you said you moved, you moved up Georgian Bay area. It was a risk, obviously. I'm sure it was a risk for you. You know, you got four girls, yeah, a wife, and a home, and you know, so you did you did what you what you wanted to do, and it's no different than myself. It's like I live within my means now, so I can enjoy the things I learned in COVID fireflies, sunsets, and northern lights. You know what? There's nothing that lifts my heart more when I see it. There we go. Yes, there you go. That's it. And it's just, you know, it comes down to the simple things that we could appreciate in such crappy times. And it's still yet today, 2026. It's like June's coming, fireflies season.

SPEAKER_00 27:34

Love it. It's it's fun because I've been watching the moon mission, and of course, I'm a total nerd and you know, astronaut geek. I have my I have my my uh my NASA astronaut jacket, you know, somewhere around there. And but it was just very fun to watch these four people like looking back at at the little blue marble, you know, floating through space, and and just be, you know, and there's something kind of magical and wonderful about that. And it's and you're you're kind of watching it and you're realizing how small like all of our problems really are, and how or how asinine and how stupid, you know, the the stuff is that we do. But the point is, for me, the reason why I still, you know, the reason why the backyard space will always hold a different place in my heart, if you will, is because of its ability to bring us outside, you know, w with the number as much as humanly possible. I try to talk every single client who wants to put the outdoor television outside out of it, you know, without sounding preachy. Uh but like the the ability to create even a 10 by 10 space, this hasn't changed. This has just gotten more important. Investing in rest is now like if you can leave the the kitchen of your home, so you've come home or you're working from home now, and you know, all of this stuff's happening. The news is just like, you know, we're all, you know, we're all we're all, you know. You can bleep that out, you know. But you know, we're we're it's just like it's all, it's all it's bad, it's all bad. Like what's you know, what's the horse doing today, you know, whatever going on. It makes like it makes like Canadian political scandals just look like comical. Like, really, is this what we have to worry about, you know? And and to be able to be able to leave that stressful place and walk through a doorway

Designing Backyards Like Therapy

SPEAKER_00 29:40

into your backyard and feel like you've entered into Narnia, whether it's something you've spent, you know, uh a great deal on or or or did on a budget. Like it doesn't matter. The point is, is that is that I really I still believe in that. The like in investing in rest is like taking in now, even more than ever. It's like, no, understand what if it's done properly, again, which is what I'll say is makes me different. Is I don't, I'm not I don't design the same thing twice because there's no people, there's no human beings that are the same, you know, and and if I'm not designing something to somebody's story or something that's like, what's really going to impact you? What's what's the rest? And I was just I was on with the client the other day where it was like, it's like, well, what are you doing now on this collapsing, you know, backyard, you know, deck that you inherited? And you know, and he's like, Well, I'm sitting here on the corner. I like watching people walk by in the park. I'm like, well, why are you sitting there on the corner? He's like, Well, because I don't want to I love my neighbors, but I don't want to have to talk to them. And if they see me, then I have to talk to them. And I don't want to be rude because we're friends, but sometimes I just want peacing, I just want to go outside and get away from everything and just sit and be and just breathe. But then the minute that someone walks into my peripheral, I'm not I it breaks me out of it, and I'm now having to engage and I need that time.

SPEAKER_02 31:14

And I'm just like, I was like, you poor man. Yeah, I know, and and I think that happens often in you know communities. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:23

And I'm like, I'm like, would you like me to show you how to how to recreate this, but create a space where it doesn't feel like you're putting up a wall to Frank, your wonderful neighbor, but that allows you to be able to come and sit outside without having to have that extra level of tension that you're just not in the space to be able to communicate right now. You're in your recovery state right now and not have to feel guilty for it. You know, that's the that's the that's the psychologist in me. You know, that's the you know, that's that's why I love doing this because I'm like, what makes what is it that you need to bring your soul into rest? And the fact that I happen to find myself, you know, building places of rest, particularly when it comes to the backyard. Like again, I do all this for the inside as well. It's just different. Yeah, the backyard is different. And and when I can create those backyard spaces that are all year round, where it's like I'm going out to what in the summertime is the cabana, you know, or or but in the wintertime, it's like I'm going out to my other my den, my my creativity room, my music room. You know, it's the heated space out back where that's where Christmas morning happens. It's like, and it doesn't have to be this big space, but that also works as an ADU. That also works as an accessory dwelling unit, you know, that you can rent out, like there's all kinds of things that can be done that could have multiple purposes, but allow you to have that ability to just be like, I am leaving my environment and I'm walking out there to catch my flipping breath. Yeah. And just calm myself.

SPEAKER_02 33:06

I think the premise of the interview is decking trends, but you know what? I think it's actually outdoor trends and is more psychological than what it is stuff. It always is with me. You know, it's more about your the the the psychology of you or the education of you to create a space that's designed for you to be able to breathe, rest, and relax. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:35

Investing investing in rest is the key. It's understanding that right now when everything is telling you to hold on to like it's like or you're investing in your own health. It's like if I'm gonna do, and it's not about like like, yeah, create a small space, create a big space. I don't care if you're just creating a a 10 by 10 space, but have it not just like put it out in the back space, something to go to that allows you to like when I walk into here, I'm leaving the tension and everything out there. This is like it's like an oxygen chamber.

SPEAKER_02 34:15

Well, it's it's funny because I my my parents passed a few years ago, and I was trying, and I the same year, six, eight months apart. Wow, and my ex-husband right in between. Yeah, it was like eight months of complete and utter chaos. So I understand rest and relaxation and you know, learning to live on a on a on a on an even balance. So I went out, looked at this trailer in Lambton Shores, and everyone was like, Trina, you're not a trailer person. Like, I'm going to look at this, and if it if it says yes, I'm getting it. So the trailer had you know, a lot of privacy. It wasn't like trailer. Yeah, yeah. Nice little deck, but it had like just the main thing for me was what is the outdoors? What can I do with it? And how can I find my peace? So I've got these two little ninjas now that I cook off of, never inside. And I'm in my like, everyone's like, Trina's in like an habit. And like you would never think of that me, like 10 years ago. Like, I'd be like, trailer, like and it's like, but it's all about that outdoor space. Come six o'clock, I set up my my cameras across where the where the bush is, get my firefly photography going. Life is good, and you know, and I and I just I just totally really appreciate this interview because it's not taking a stale stuff tone, you know, stuff is great, and you need the stuff to make it your make it yours, but use this stuff with purpose.

SPEAKER_00 35:44

That makes sense. 100%. And I I and I can I can I can talk till the cows come home about about you know how to incorporate lighting, how to incorporate incorporate fire features

Nature Elements That Calm Us

SPEAKER_00 35:55

or water features and all of these things, you know, stuff that you would that when you go to a spa, you know, when's the last time you went to a spa where there isn't some sort of water coming down, there isn't like a little fire feature, there isn't like birds tweeting, you know. There, these there are reasons why they have these particular elements, because there's something intrinsically that we're internally programmed to breathe in and out when we enter into nature. That's why we love the sound of a noon, you know, on the water. There's just something, ah, it's like it's it's that's why watching, you know, watching the you know, the wind blow the snow off the top of a distant mountain or just the wind waving through the ground, like all of these things. If we didn't, you know, I've said this this joke for years. I'm like, if we didn't, if it if this wasn't something that has this mysterious calming quality for us, then we wouldn't participate in insane human behavior like camping. You know, like what is camping? We're going to go out, you know, we're going to go out into the woods where the animals have been trained to kill us, and we're going to sleep, you know, in a nylon bag on your lock as a pillow, and I'm going to wake up with high chiropractic bills, all so that, you know, I can sit around the fire and look other human beings in the eye. You know, it's like what like what's what's that like? What's communicating, what's sitting and actually talking like? You know, and it's, you know, if if I say when aliens are looking down, they'd be like, what is this crazy? What are they what are they doing? Are they lost their minds? You know, it's like, what's drawing us out into nature? And not everyone's a camping person, but you know, it's it's very few people indeed that aren't, even if they're like, I love living in the city, but how many people do you know that love living in the city that aren't that don't that hate going to the park? You know, you know, unless there may be yeah, there's the odd agore, agoraphobic agoraphobic person and people that, you know, but that's not about nature. No, you know, it's not about like maybe I like the park in the city because there's less, you know, there's less chance of of a bear coming out and mauling me to death. Like, you know, whatever it is.

SPEAKER_01 38:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:02

But we are designed to breathe in the air and look at the clouds and slow things down and realize how small things are, which is again going back to the astronauts. You know, it's like this is the first time since 1972 that we've seen a picture of the earth as the whole marble. And it's like, look, look, look at this.

SPEAKER_02 38:22

You know, the photography that's coming out is just mine.

SPEAKER_00 38:25

Yeah, I think and you you mentioned the photography. Like the my photography is has for years been my, I do landscape photography, and that's my like that's my calming. I know, yeah. Like when I have a camera on and I'm just out shooting, like there's some, you know, if if my wife won't let me ride a motorcycle, uh, which apparently is very calming as well. People, but you know, I feel like I'm gonna be like, I'm gonna be like, oh, oh, you know, it's the highway, oh look a butterfly, and then you know, and then cliffs.

SPEAKER_02 38:55

Yeah, up comes a camera.

SPEAKER_00 38:57

Yeah, yeah. The camera is a little safer, I feel, you know, and she agrees. But that's where the brain turns off, and you're no longer thinking. And I I if I can if I can give anyone, if I can give a a couple, uh a single person, a couple, a grandparents, children, I don't care. If I can create that one moment, if I am responsible in any way of creating a single space that allows someone to be like, they don't even realize it. They're not thinking about what Paul did for them. They're just there.

SPEAKER_01 39:39

Right.

SPEAKER_00 39:40

Yeah. It's just, you know, it's not like, you know, they look over and like, who is responsible for this? I must find them immediately and and you know, and lift them up in a pedestal. It's like, but it's just that it's just that they're just there and they're like, oh, maybe I am going to do, maybe I am going to accept that other job. Maybe I am going to take the plunge and ask her to marry me. Maybe I am uh maybe I do what have what it takes to be a father. You know, maybe I will risk having the baby, even though I've lost the one before. Like, you know. Yeah. Yeah. It's like those that list goes on and on. Relaxing, getting past your fears, and it's you have to get out of that. That's like we're it's like it's like when you watch a sci-fi movie and you're in warp driving and something it's just flying by you.

SPEAKER_02 40:28

That's like that's if if I can be like Yeah, yeah, no, exactly. So now that this interview's taking a turn, I'm I'm scrappling for questions now because I had a whole bunch, but this I think this one's an half decent one anyway. What would you suggest? Top three things off the cuff that if someone's thinking of creating a backyard oasis, what should they think about? What

Three Design Questions That Matter

SPEAKER_02 40:52

should they do? What are the kind of like the psychological questions that they need to ask themselves? Dr. Franz.

SPEAKER_00 40:58

Yes, the doctor's in. And uh by the the top three are easy because they're the same one. Design, design, design. The amount, the number one regret that I have that's been told to me, people stopping me, whether I'm at a home show or they're seeing me at the supermarket or I'm in a home depot, you know, out for dinner with my wife, like whatever. The number one comment that people make is if only, if only I had called you before I built what I built, before I took my hard-earned money and invested it into the gargantuan, you know, rectangle from hell that has absolutely no drawing power whatsoever. It's just utilitarian. You know, before I, you know, before I built a outdoor oasis, quote, that was anything but that's so boring it makes their eyes bleed. You know, it's like that's that's the number one thing people say to me. And I'm like, and they'll be like, could you just tell me what you would have done differently? And I'm like, no. Because why? Why would we, why would we let's see what we can do with what you did, yeah, and see how I can how I can take what's there. And I I thoroughly enjoyed doing that. But you know, particularly now in the world with the world of AI, and you know, the ability for people to have the ability to be like, hey, Chad GPT, can you here's a picture of my backyard, could you superimpose a deck in here for me and adjust it and accordingly? And I'm like, you know what? I'm I'm not against the fact that you get the idea, like you can get an idea. The problem is, is that design is gotta be human because the psychological elements of like why you're gonna sit in one particular corner, because you know, that's where dad used to sit before he passed. You know, I want to be able to create a space over here on this side. And you know what? I'm actually of the 50% of people that don't use a dining table. We have we have one, but we never use it because we prefer to lounge around the fire and eat around the fire when we're sitting outside. And the dining table never gets used, but we're supposed to have a dining table because that's what they say. And then there's the other side of the ledge. People would be like, uh we just sit around the dining table until one in the morning and then we play cards. You know, it's like everyone is different. And then also, where is the sun coming in and how is this affecting you? And are you a sun versus shade person? And you know, what's are you a morning versus evening person? Like all of these elements can't be created by a computer.

SPEAKER_02 43:43

And at the grocery store either, when you're chatting with them, you know, you've got to actually know the person and say, Hey, this is you know, AI, you know, it people want uh immediate answers, but we gotta get to the core of who you are as a person.

SPEAKER_00 43:59

For me. The you know, it's it's to the point where understanding that that what I have I have four daughters by my but with my wife and my well have my wife and my four daughters. I don't know if I would I at some point I would have wandered just off of a cliff. You know, I would be looking out somewhere and and then it would and then it would have been like taxes or a cliff. One of the two things would have ended me either dead or in prison. It's it's it's well established. You know, I'm just uh I I I am well versed in what I in what I suck at. And I'm quite I'm quite I'm okay with that. It's the I know that I do this really well. You know, I know that that my uni my perspective of the the love of my love for people, I just I I find people's stories fascinating. I want to know the stories. If you're telling your stories to a computer versus a human, I think we all know there's something typically missing. You know, we don't quite have the same, you know, the the relation the the romantic relationships with the computer, we all kind of agree like, oh, that's sad. But you know, when you're having just an emotional connection with a computer, also sad. Because the reality is we don't necessarily we know people don't know our stories that we're surrounded with, but the real tragedy is the belief that we think they don't want to know.

SPEAKER_02 45:21

You know, I love stories. Right, 100%. I feel that I feel that to my core.

SPEAKER_00 45:28

Yeah. I want, I love people's stories. I'm fascinated by people's stories. My brain it instantaneously like turns them in. I can't be I I don't know how, I've been like this since I was little, you know, but but I love that, you know, and I and that that excites me every single time, 30 years into doing what I do. So what's you know, what are the three things you want to do? It's like, and whether you're using me or somebody else, but just don't depend on AI to create something that you're gonna have a regret about. Because there's one thing that I'll do with any of my clients. I'm gonna be like, you like hot tubs? Prove it. They're like, that's a little unorthodox. I'm gonna be like, I want you to, I want you to answer that question to yourself. Are you in that category of people that I want, I have to have the hot tub because I just drive home thinking about getting in the tub? Or you're in the other half people who are like, oh, yes, hot tub would be nice. And then you realize you use it maybe once a year when you have friends over, and the rest of the time you're paying for something that you're not using. It's like very similar with a pool. Are you what kind of out are you going to invest in an outdoor kitchen when you barbecue maybe once every couple of weeks? You know, or you uh are you that that that that person that is like, I don't care if it's a blizzard and mine is stupid outside. I'm going to be, you know, I'm I'm making my food on the grill. You know, those are the those are the things that I'll push for, you know, because a lot of times people don't even know themselves.

SPEAKER_02 46:56

They don't. I didn't know myself outdoors until like I got the trailer. Like a lot of people don't. They don't know themselves. A lot of people don't. They just settle with what's there, want to rebuild on it in a certain way, but they don't truly understand. I mean, not necessarily don't understand outdoors, it's what they want with what they need. You know, head the hot tub, head the pool, would never consider it again.

SPEAKER_00 47:18

I think I'm gonna rebrand myself as a design psychologist.

SPEAKER_02 47:21

You know, I I actually want this, I've really enjoyed this conversation because of that.

SPEAKER_00 47:27

I I I think that would be very fun. Because it is, that's what I'm doing. And it's but there's nothing, and there's nothing pretentious or fake about it. I'm like, that is what I'm doing. I'm like going, no, let's let's sit down. I don't care if it's your if it's your you have 20 foot by 20 foot space to deal with, or whether you have some palatial state. It's like I won't build something that's like quality, it's it's like quality over quantity. I'm not injured building something big for the sake of it being big. I like creating outdoor rooms with purpose. And the purpose has to be first and foremost, what in the craziest uh culture in the history of humanity, the fastest moving, the most stress-inducing outside of war. How can I create those places of rest? How can I make that that it's like walking into your backyard space into the arms of a therapist that is actually nature? And I've I'm I've created the seat and where to sit, you know, that I love.

SPEAKER_02 48:29

And home is where the heart is, and even your backyard should be part of the heart. And you've got a mate. You're an amazing guy. I've always I've always admired you so much. And thank you, Trina. Yeah, I've always had a huge admiration for you. You're you're totally like you said in the beginning, you're very different, and that's a good thing.

SPEAKER_00 48:51

Yeah, I tell my girls that all the time. I'm like, I'm like, I prefer you be weird because we have enough clones in the world already. Thank you very much.

SPEAKER_02 48:59

I agree with you 100%. And I'm not gonna take any more of your time because we've been on almost an hour now. But no, we're doing yeah, no, good.

SPEAKER_00 49:08

That's perfect at perfect time. I have uh I have another zoom after this, which which I which I can which I guarantee you won't be as fun.

SPEAKER_02 49:16

Oh, that's as this one. I'm happy to hear that because I've really enjoyed my time with you.

SPEAKER_00 49:21

Yeah, I'm doing so. I've been designing resorts, which is funny. Like I said, the last number of years I've been designing, you know, Canada's first glamping

Big Projects Paused And Goodbye

SPEAKER_00 49:30

resort, which is going to be like you know, north of Abrilia, and and it, and you know, it has a you know, a swim up bar in Canada that you would see down in the Caribbean, but it's okay because it turns into a skating rink, you know, in the wintertime. Very fun, put on hold because of the because of the economy, because of the same thing. You know, I designed a Nordic spa in Beaver Valley where it's like this is the world-class Nordic spa put on hold because of everything going on. You know, I designed a villa for my you know, the the Canadian clients down in Turks and Caicos, the other resort down there. Everything's been like put on hold. Yeah, wow, that's gonna be and it's like it's frustrating, but at the same time, it's like, well, those are fun. I really do enjoy those, and I was looking forward to um, you know, they'll eventually be done. Yeah. But the even transferring back into this, you know, like adapting and being like, okay, there's a reason why things happen and and and what's this? And you know, the design psychology side of things is is is still fun. But also, you know, the the ADUs and how to help people with that. That actually, I can see that being more worrying. I don't need accolades because I built, you know, for resort. I I would rather I'd rather have the I would never forget the last thing I'll say, and I gotta go, but I I'll never forget when I first was first hanging out with Scott McGilvery years ago, and we were out in Halifax, we were filming Handyman Challenge, and I will never forget Scotty being like, I'm not joining you for dinner tonight, guys, because I have I'm gonna be going having dinner. I'm like, oh, no, who is uh who you have dinner with? It's like he's like 10-15 years ago, I like helped this couple get their first income property, and I'm just gonna drop in and see how they're doing. And I was like, That's pretty cool. I was like, really? That's just gonna, yeah, just gonna just want to go, I just want to drop in and say hi. And I was like, I'm like, maybe I have maybe maybe I judged your pretty boy looks a little wrong. And I was and I was I I'll I never forgot that. And I was like, that's like something that I would do. And but it was just really, you know, it was cool. And then you looked at the success of people and and you know where they go, and I'll I'll I'll look back at that moment and be like, that's that tells you what when when the lights are down and no one's watching, you know, who are you? And I never I never forgot that. I thought that was very I was like, that was really cool, you know, for someone in in his and that's what he's doing now. So it's funny that I'm even even talking about like moving into more focus on on the ADUs. And I'm like, well, it's I love doing that, and it's interesting that Scotty, you know, that's what he's been doing for years, helping people, right? So it's that's you know what?

SPEAKER_02 52:29

I I you know, I that that's it's character. It is at the end of the day, it's character. Yep. It's who you are, what you're meant to be, and the character that you that you that you have as you meet people along the way.

SPEAKER_00 52:43

I couldn't agree more. Trina, my dear, you will so much let's don't be a stranger either. Absolutely as well. Let me know when you want to do if you want if you want to do this again. Because you might, you know, again, you might hang out and be like, like he's a lot, you know.

SPEAKER_02 52:56

Yeah. No, he's not. Okay, it was awesome talking to you. Thank you so much for your time. And we'll be in touch.

SPEAKER_00 53:04

My pleasure, and yeah, let's be in touch again. Have a great day.

SPEAKER_02 53:08

Take care. Bye.