Gabby Petito’s Legacy and Training First Responders on the Invisible Signs of Domestic Abuse

Karin Marquez from RapidSOS teams up with Ricardo Martinez from Within the Trenches podcast to speak with Jim Schmidt, Secretary of the Gabby Petito Foundation and retired fire captain with 25 years in public safety. Jim shares how losing his stepdaughter Gabby to domestic violence revealed critical gaps in first responder training that he had never recognized during his career in fire, EMS, and 911 dispatch.

Jim explains how first responders across police, fire, EMS, and dispatch operate in dangerous silos when responding to domestic violence calls, missing opportunities to provide life saving interventions. He discusses the foundation's training programs designed to teach trauma informed care and help responders recognize subtle signs of abuse, including the deadly threat of strangulation cases. The conversation covers how technology can provide discreet resources to victims and why breaking down barriers between agencies is essential for coordinated response.

Key topics covered:

[00:00] Intro

[02:46] Jim's 25 year first responder journey

[06:54] Gabby's story and the foundation's mission

[12:06] How first responder experience shaped crisis response

[17:21] Breaking down training silos in domestic violence

[24:24] Detecting abuse signs in the field

[31:00] Building the Gabby Petito Foundation programs

[36:29] Missed opportunities and learning from mistakes

[38:51] Strangulation dangers for first responders

[41:40] Technology solutions for domestic violence response

[47:24] Creating proactive safety cultures

[50:23] Warning signs and red flags for families

[53:53] The foundation's ultimate goal

[56:23] Resources and getting help

This episode provides critical insights for anyone in public safety who wants to better serve domestic violence victims and prevent future tragedies.

Transcript

Karin [0:00:15]: Alright.

Karin [0:00:15]: Welcome back to The Safety Gap podcast everyone.

Karin [0:00:18]: Today, I am super excited because we're doing a little bit of a crossover episode.

Karin [0:00:23]: And I get to introduce the c host today covering for our friend Cassidy who was not able to be here with us, Ricardo Martinez.

Karin [0:00:31]: He is the brilliant voice behind within the trenches podcast.

Karin [0:00:36]: And so today, we're coming together with a very special guest.

Karin [0:00:39]: So with that, Ricardo, we'll let you kick it off.

Ricardo [0:00:43]: Yeah.

Ricardo [0:00:43]: Thank you very much.

Ricardo [0:00:44]: This was just a couple days ago, but heard that this was going to be happening, and the podcast that is this episode that you guys were gonna be doing.

Ricardo [0:00:52]: You and Cassidy, Cassidy is out.

Ricardo [0:00:54]: You guys had asked, I was do a crossover.

Ricardo [0:00:56]: Can we do this and I said, yeah.

Ricardo [0:00:58]: Put me in coach.

Ricardo [0:00:59]: You know, let's do this.

Ricardo [0:01:00]: So I will say though, I've been just a little nervous because I feel like I'm asking my parents for the keys for the car for the first time.

Ricardo [0:01:07]: In a way.

Ricardo [0:01:09]: But I'm...

Karin [0:01:11]: You need to drive.

Ricardo [0:01:12]: You know, that's right.

Ricardo [0:01:12]: But I'm excited to be here with you, and, of course, you know, this is the partnership that we have between a Rap West as well as within the Trenches podcast.

Ricardo [0:01:21]: So this is an an excellent way to do this crossover and also just excited for this episode in general.

Ricardo [0:01:27]: Especially because of the fact that we are now in October, and since nineteen eighty one this month has been national domestic of violence awareness month.

Ricardo [0:01:36]: So again, just an honor to have our guests here today, not just to talk about what he and family and the Gabby Petito foundation are doing together, but also to talk about the story and his daughter Gabby, but also to find out more about Jim.

Ricardo [0:01:54]: So With that said, our guest today here is Jim Schmidt.

Ricardo [0:01:59]: He is the father of Gabby Petito as well as the secretary of the Gabby Petito foundation.

Ricardo [0:02:04]: So let's welcome Jim.

Jim [0:02:06]: Hey, everybody.

Jim [0:02:06]: Thanks for having me.

Ricardo [0:02:08]: Thank you for being here.

Jim [0:02:09]: Yeah.

Jim [0:02:09]: I'm excited.

Karin [0:02:10]: So excited to have you Jim.

Ricardo [0:02:12]: So we've been talking a little bit actually before we got started here with this episode, and just kinda going back and forth.

Ricardo [0:02:19]: And like I mentioned, you know, this month.

Ricardo [0:02:20]: What this month means and everything.

Ricardo [0:02:22]: But before we get into all of this.

Ricardo [0:02:25]: And again, thank you for joining us here on The Safety Gap.

Ricardo [0:02:28]: But before we get into everything that we're gonna be talking about today.

Ricardo [0:02:31]: Kinda wanna learn a little bit more about yourself, Jim, your journey, as a first responder because you've got about twenty plus years in public safety.

Ricardo [0:02:40]: Correct?

Ricardo [0:02:40]: Not just as a firefighter, but also an instructor and emergency medical technician.

Jim [0:02:46]: Yeah.

Jim [0:02:46]: Yeah.

Jim [0:02:46]: I started out in the volunteer world.

Jim [0:02:47]: That's actually where I met my wife.

Jim [0:02:49]: While I was going through fire in Em emt school.

Jim [0:02:51]: I I actually started in nine one one dispatch.

Jim [0:02:53]: So I was working in nine one one dispatch while I was a volunteer.

Jim [0:02:56]: And once I got my certifications, I quickly changed over, and I got into career firefight an Ems But even as I was getting into that field on my days off, I still work part time per diem in smaller dispatch centers, mostly fire Ems working.

Jim [0:03:11]: I always felt that that time that I had in nine one dispatch really helped me become a better first responder.

Jim [0:03:17]: Because when you're hearing things on the phone on the other end and understanding what it's going on of that room, I just think it gives you a better picture of what you're going through in the field and allowed me to be a better responder out there.

Jim [0:03:29]: So you know, my roots are started in nine one dispatch, and it's kinda grown from there, but I've never forgotten it.

Jim [0:03:36]: I I always go back to that time there.

Jim [0:03:37]: I'm always appreciative throughout my career.

Jim [0:03:40]: I've always highlighted the great work and the important work that our our dispatch do each and every day.

Jim [0:03:44]: Extremely difficult job.

Jim [0:03:46]: They don't get credit for the amount of work that they do often.

Jim [0:03:48]: And they deal with some unimaginable stuff and never know what the outcome is.

Jim [0:03:53]: But from that point, getting into the career aspect of it.

Jim [0:03:55]: I ended up finishing up as a career fire captain up in New York before, just as everything was happening with our daughter.

Jim [0:04:01]: A volunteer of fire chief.

Jim [0:04:03]: I was an fire instructor.

Jim [0:04:05]: I went around, you know, the Northeast working for third party companies doing a lot of technical rescue training, rope rescue, confined space, firefighter survival, different aspects of that part of training.

Jim [0:04:16]: And I just...

Jim [0:04:17]: I enjoy every piece of being a first responder in helping people.

Jim [0:04:20]: And then once things happen and we lost our daughter, I realized it was probably time to hang up being on the Street, and I had a job offer down here at Florida, and I kinda switched to a more administrative role where I was working in public relations, public education, risk reduction, things like that.

Jim [0:04:37]: And I officially hung up that, my my coat after twenty five years past July, and and now I'm I'm on a different mission in life.

Ricardo [0:04:45]: Twenty five years.

Ricardo [0:04:46]: That is a lot of thank you for your service and everything, you know, that you've done, and I I love how you mentioned dispatch and how everything starts there you know, you go back to that time as well and Karen, maybe you can attest this as well.

Ricardo [0:05:00]: I almost feel like, you know, a lot of times people say that musicians.

Ricardo [0:05:05]: If you know how to play the piano.

Ricardo [0:05:07]: You can kind of do anything.

Ricardo [0:05:09]: And I feel like Jim as well as you were mentioning with dispatch starting there.

Ricardo [0:05:15]: You kinda get that roundabout and you can go from there.

Ricardo [0:05:17]: What do you think, Karen?

Karin [0:05:19]: No, I think there's a lot of opportunities for folks that do starting dispatch.

Karin [0:05:22]: We we want them to stay there too and for those that wanna branch out a little bit.

Karin [0:05:27]: There's so many opportunities, and it just gives you awareness, it gives you critical thinking and problem solving skills in these really skills that can go across any part of your life from career to personal as well.

Karin [0:05:40]: It's having that awareness that instinct the curiosity, and the people skills also that set you up for success and so many things, and, you know, you're an innate helper.

Karin [0:05:49]: And when you have that, like, flowing through your blood and you go wherever in business, relationships are key in those people skills.

Karin [0:05:58]: So I love that...

Karin [0:05:59]: You spent a career, helping people.

Karin [0:06:02]: And now you're taking this to the next level, and helping in so many more ways continuing that service.

Karin [0:06:09]: So, again, thank you for your help.

Karin [0:06:11]: And it's really hard that it's a tragedy that drove to this next level.

Karin [0:06:16]: However, you're helping so many people that may not have ever had awareness before.

Karin [0:06:20]: So I know we're gonna get into that story that as well.

Ricardo [0:06:23]: Yeah.

Ricardo [0:06:23]: That's a good segue going into now we're...

Ricardo [0:06:27]: You know, we're gonna to be talking about in how your life, your mission family.

Ricardo [0:06:31]: Just everyone has been changed by.

Ricardo [0:06:34]: What it happened with the loss of Gabby.

Ricardo [0:06:36]: So in your own time, however you wanna put in and please take your time as well, if you can share kind of the story, but also how you and your family decided to channel this whole situation into creating the Gabby Petito foundation and what you're doing now going to that next level just as Karen said.

Jim [0:06:54]: Yeah.

Jim [0:06:54]: Absolutely.

Jim [0:06:55]: And I just had an article that was published the other day to kick off the domestic violence awareness month in the journal of Ems magazine or I kinda laid a lot of that out.

Jim [0:07:03]: And doing this job for so long, you do see the unimaginable.

Jim [0:07:07]: Sometimes you do experience tragedy and and you power through those things and and and sometimes see the the worst in the world but you're doing it for the greater good.

Jim [0:07:16]: And you often think that even though you see these things that you personally and your family are imp to these tragedies.

Jim [0:07:23]: And I would say that was probably my biggest mistake going into it and not realizing, hey, this thing can happen to anybody.

Jim [0:07:29]: And I couldn't really tell you much about domestic violence other than what you would see on Tv or what people's pre notions are.

Jim [0:07:36]: So when your kids grow up, you do everything you can to raise them, keep them safe and guide them the right way.

Jim [0:07:42]: And for Gabby, I came into her life when she was two years old.

Jim [0:07:45]: So I was really there for a huge part of her life.

Jim [0:07:48]: And then seeing her becoming an adult was an amazing thing.

Jim [0:07:51]: It's something I'm really proud of, and when she was starting to travel and and do her thing.

Jim [0:07:55]: It was a scraping thing to watch.

Jim [0:07:57]: And there was little issues like I think in any relationship along the line, but on the surface when you look at them individually, those little red flags were very benign to us.

Jim [0:08:05]: They seem like, yeah, you know, maybe they just slight relationship issues.

Jim [0:08:08]: And then suddenly, you're thrust into this spotlight because your...

Jim [0:08:12]: Your daughter's missing the Fiance returned home with the van.

Jim [0:08:15]: We were, like, we gotta find our daughter.

Jim [0:08:18]: My wife started a Facebook page to say, like, you know, help flying Gabby.

Jim [0:08:21]: And we had no idea that Was really gonna explode and take off the way it did.

Jim [0:08:25]: There's a lot of speculation on why it did slow new cycles, missing white woman syndrome where people that look a certain way To I get more attention, which these are all absolutely real things that happen.

Jim [0:08:37]: And for us at that moment, our concern was just finding our daughter.

Jim [0:08:40]: And I know for myself, you know, that twenty plus years of doing what I did.

Jim [0:08:44]: In that moment, I didn't know how to go into a dad mode.

Jim [0:08:47]: I didn't understand that.

Jim [0:08:48]: You know, my first responder brain kicked in, it was like somebody trip to tones in the station, and we gotta run and we gotta do it to it.

Jim [0:08:56]: And so, that's when I I kinda turned around, you know, this look like it was really covering in the entire country.

Jim [0:09:02]: We were living in New York at the time.

Jim [0:09:03]: Gabby father and bonus mom Were down in Florida.

Jim [0:09:06]: That's where they had just moved within the last year.

Jim [0:09:08]: Gabby on this cross country road trip, and we knew that she was probably in the Wyoming area, and Said, you, I'm gonna go find her.

Jim [0:09:15]: I'm gonna bring her home.

Jim [0:09:16]: And I said, you know, I've I've got search rescue experience.

Jim [0:09:19]: I can speak law enforcement by working with them.

Jim [0:09:22]: I don't know what we're gonna find, but I'm gonna find her, and I'm not gonna bring her home.

Jim [0:09:25]: And that's what I did.

Jim [0:09:27]: You know, I went out there, and media really kinda took over.

Jim [0:09:30]: It...

Jim [0:09:30]: Just exploded with so much stuff.

Jim [0:09:32]: We found we're finding things out, like, real time, like, everybody else.

Jim [0:09:35]: It wasn't like, we we had any insight to some of the things that with information that was coming out.

Jim [0:09:41]: And then, on September nineteenth, Four years ago, that's when they had founder her the T town County search rescue team with T town County Sheriff's office had located her, and That was a devastating day.

Jim [0:09:52]: You don't ever expect to bury your children.

Jim [0:09:54]: That's not how life is supposed to work even though I've seen that type of tragedy in other people's lives, but you never think it's gonna happen to you and it...

Jim [0:10:02]: On that day, I positively identified our body.

Jim [0:10:05]: Terrible.

Jim [0:10:06]: You shouldn't have to see that.

Jim [0:10:07]: There was many reasons why I get a lot of questions why.

Jim [0:10:10]: And there was another person missing out there that closely fit her description.

Jim [0:10:14]: And so I had to be certain before.

Jim [0:10:16]: I made the phone call home, and I did.

Jim [0:10:19]: So I remember every waking no moment of that day.

Jim [0:10:22]: You know, there's a lot.

Jim [0:10:23]: I don't remember with Ptsd and neuro biology of trauma, how it really affects us.

Jim [0:10:28]: A lot.

Jim [0:10:28]: I don't remember, but I can tell you every moment of that day.

Jim [0:10:30]: And I just remember after that being left with so many unanswered questions.

Jim [0:10:34]: And I just really kinda grew after that.

Jim [0:10:37]: And then as time went on, we realized that Gabby story really captivated the world for that matter and and touched so many lives and we started receiving so many messages from people that here you have this person who lived their life on social media, like, so many people.

Jim [0:10:51]: You had audio, you had video.

Jim [0:10:53]: You had pictures, what seems to be picture perfect was far from it.

Jim [0:10:56]: And then the end result was her murder.

Jim [0:10:59]: And I think some people started recognizing these similarities and their own relationships and were saying that because of her, they were able to get out safely, they were experiencing abuse.

Jim [0:11:09]: And so what do we do with that as a family.

Jim [0:11:11]: We're a family of helpers.

Jim [0:11:13]: I met my wife as an And Ent.

Jim [0:11:14]: So we said, we're gonna start a foundation.

Jim [0:11:17]: And we didn't know how that looked like in the beginning?

Jim [0:11:19]: You know, we were kind of finding our way.

Jim [0:11:21]: And it kinda keeps growing as it goes along, but we couldn't sit back and not not help people, not, You know, the world gave gave Gabby a platform.

Jim [0:11:28]: Her story touches so many areas of the domestic in violence.

Jim [0:11:31]: And as we went on, I looked back in my career and I realized, I never really had any training in this It was in my Emt textbook I responded to these calls, and I unintentionally had failed victims in the past by not knowing how to respond not knowing how to provide resources how to use trauma in perform care towards them, and how to help them start that safety planning process to give them hope that there's a chance that they can get out.

Jim [0:11:56]: And so that's kinda how the foundation...

Jim [0:11:58]: You know, grew from that point, you know, between education and prevention and and supporting others, other, like minded agencies.

Ricardo [0:12:06]: Thank you.

Ricardo [0:12:06]: Very much for sharing that right off the bat and as always condolences just for all of it and for Gabby.

Ricardo [0:12:12]: And just this whole situation.

Ricardo [0:12:15]: I remember myself watching this as this was going on, and I can't even imagine for you and your wife Nicole, but in my head just, you know, sometimes I I ask folks that I talked to, how do you feel that the profession nine one one has changed you?

Ricardo [0:12:30]: And there's always things that we're kind of thinking.

Ricardo [0:12:34]: Right?

Ricardo [0:12:34]: Or in the back of our minds and such.

Ricardo [0:12:36]: So with that said, for the both of you coming from public safety and those decades of experience and all, how did that either help or hinder or just simply shape your family's response or approach that is of navigating this crisis and interacting with all these agencies that were involved and news outlets and social media, How how did that work out?

Jim [0:12:59]: And that's a great point, and I talk about this a lot that when I packed my bags of my gear to head out there, unbeknownst to me, I packed twenty plus years of My I carrier trauma that I didn't know I carried that I didn't know was weighing on me.

Jim [0:13:12]: And I thought that all of those experiences had prepared me for anything in the world.

Jim [0:13:16]: And I can tell you that when I was out there, and I was interacting with law enforcement when we had the meetings and I was talking with them.

Jim [0:13:21]: I was laser focused.

Jim [0:13:23]: I was in the zone as a first responder.

Jim [0:13:25]: But none of that stuff that none of the training, none of the experiences I ever had ever prepared me for that moment on September nineteenth, and it really it really started to call a lot of things in the question.

Jim [0:13:37]: Like, I I felt like I had this proverbial shield of armor that protected me from that stuff, and I would just be able to move on.

Jim [0:13:44]: And I realized quickly that I couldn't.

Jim [0:13:46]: That nothing had I prepared me for that moment.

Jim [0:13:48]: And in a way, it was almost self me to think that it could, you know, When I changed certain things going back, you always look back and fix, say things or hindsight twenty twenty.

Jim [0:13:57]: But as far as going out there here and providing the information and doing what I could, like, I wouldn't change that.

Jim [0:14:02]: Like, and I wouldn't want anybody else in our families who experience what I absorbed that day.

Jim [0:14:06]: But my my training and my experience helped me in a moment until that moment came, if that makes sense.

Ricardo [0:14:13]: Yeah.

Ricardo [0:14:13]: Definitely.

Ricardo [0:14:14]: And, Karen, I'll go to you here really quick just the back end of that.

Ricardo [0:14:19]: Sometimes when we're just as an example, you know, we'd be calling nine one one, and our minds right away go into first responder mode, not just parent mode, and you start giving all of those answers to all the questions that you know.

Ricardo [0:14:32]: Are gonna be asked.

Ricardo [0:14:34]: And we have to step back for a moment and try to think, wait.

Ricardo [0:14:37]: Hold on.

Ricardo [0:14:37]: Wait...

Ricardo [0:14:38]: They need to do what they're doing, and I need to play the part of the parent.

Ricardo [0:14:41]: Like, have you have you ever had that moment or just kind of thought about that in general?

Ricardo [0:14:46]: Like, sometimes we do that because that's how we come from the profession and we need to...

Ricardo [0:14:50]: Like, Jim was saying, It had to to step back and kind of take off that armor a little bit.

Karin [0:14:55]: Yeah.

Karin [0:14:55]: I agree with Jim, and that's the hardest thing to do because, you know what you're doing.

Karin [0:15:00]: You were rational responder, you know exactly how to interact and talk as you said.

Karin [0:15:05]: And I think we've also trained ourselves to disconnect from those people that we're helping, Like we're still human.

Karin [0:15:11]: Right, Jim, But we are not gonna build a relationship with them because we need to move on to the next thing, and I don't need come too close to me.

Karin [0:15:17]: It's impossible to try to separate that when this is your baby.

Karin [0:15:22]: Mh.

Karin [0:15:23]: And might get a little bit emotional about that.

Karin [0:15:25]: But I have I had an experience calling them one and having to take a different role.

Karin [0:15:29]: Yes.

Karin [0:15:30]: It was a very different situation.

Karin [0:15:31]: My daughter was choking on a cashew and starting her lips were starting to turn purple.

Karin [0:15:35]: And in that moment, there was panic all around.

Karin [0:15:38]: My step there was, like, make somebody else called nine one because that's gonna calm them down and let me try to save her.

Karin [0:15:46]: But I just...

Karin [0:15:48]: The unimaginable is playing both roles and not being able to disconnect and walk away and separate yourself from macros and and cannot imagine him.

Jim [0:15:58]: Yeah.

Jim [0:15:58]: It's And And I...

Jim [0:16:00]: When I went out there too, I I made sure to tell him, like, I'm here as a parent.

Jim [0:16:03]: Like, I'm not here to interfere, but just know.

Jim [0:16:06]: You know, being in this job for as long as you are, when you develop friendships and relationships and connections with people all across the country.

Jim [0:16:13]: So my phone was lighting up with...

Jim [0:16:16]: Hey, we're...

Jim [0:16:17]: My incident management team is just clearing from a fire in Idaho or wherever it was at the time.

Jim [0:16:22]: Say the word, these guys are gonna pack their bags they're gonna come help you and be boots on the ground, and it was like, guys, let's appreciate that.

Jim [0:16:28]: Keep you in check, I'm gonna let them do what they gotta do because I knew potentially, that can cause more issue.

Jim [0:16:35]: So I did have that mindset to have that separation in the moment, But...

Ricardo [0:16:39]: Yeah.

Ricardo [0:16:39]: You mentioned earlier that as you were getting through all of this.

Ricardo [0:16:43]: You kind of reflected on some of the training that you may not have had or earlier on, or some things that you may have missed on calls that you might have gone out to you.

Ricardo [0:16:55]: So with that said, is we're kind of thinking about training and response and in everything for that matter.

Ricardo [0:17:02]: Just from that perspective, what do you think is the most significant safety gap and police fire Ems and Karen I'll go to you for the dispatch piece here in a moment, but how people are currently trained to identify and respond to some of those often subtle signs of domestic violence abuse.

Jim [0:17:21]: So first and foremost, I think we're still very siloed in this profession in a lot of places around the world.

Jim [0:17:28]: And when it comes to domestic violence, it really takes a coordinated negative response.

Jim [0:17:32]: And we gotta break down those silos, break down those barriers, and everybody needs to be sitting at the table together.

Jim [0:17:38]: Because if we're not all working together.

Jim [0:17:40]: We're not all receiving the same training and understanding the dynamics of the situation is gonna be inherently a gap there.

Jim [0:17:47]: And it only takes one bad experience along the way for somebody who is very hesitant to start to even call nine one one to believe that there's hope for them to get out safely.

Jim [0:17:56]: And I always say that starts at nine one dispatch, and they need to be at the table And they need to understand, like, what are they hearing?

Jim [0:18:02]: Like, listening beyond the call.

Jim [0:18:04]: Keeping that historical data on the address because just because person may be arrested for a perpetrator for abuse.

Jim [0:18:10]: Doesn't mean they're gonna be convicted of it.

Jim [0:18:12]: But we're always gonna have that call log.

Jim [0:18:14]: Right?

Jim [0:18:14]: We've been there so many times.

Jim [0:18:16]: Right?

Jim [0:18:16]: And identifying that, that's not only trying to get as much information as possible in a trauma informed way and starting that trauma informed process right from the beginning and providing them hope and there's tons of great examples out there.

Jim [0:18:27]: There was just one out of Nashville tennessee from their dispatch center.

Jim [0:18:29]: Ironically, the dispatcher name was Abby, She did a phenomenal job for text nine one one.

Jim [0:18:34]: There was just another one out of Att County, believe in Idaho with sheriff dispatcher out there through, I

Ricardo [0:18:40]: think it

Jim [0:18:40]: was a non emergency call.

Jim [0:18:41]: They started that trauma informed process because they were listening and hearing beyond the call that there was something more going on.

Jim [0:18:46]: And then that goes right into law enforcement and fire Ems to know and identify, seeing clues what's going on.

Jim [0:18:53]: And I think the biggest thing that we're missing is really the trauma informed way why that person who's experiencing that abuse is behaving the way they are.

Jim [0:19:02]: Why they may come off as not being truthful or not being credible or I can't remember things or rec can't all the time and why they're in that space and all working together, along the way.

Jim [0:19:14]: And I always told people the one thing, like, you can provide the top notch life saving care, whatever it is.

Jim [0:19:20]: Save somebody's life.

Jim [0:19:21]: But if you treated them like garbage while you doing it, then never gonna remember, you know, that positive, they're gonna always remember but they were they were terrible to me.

Jim [0:19:29]: They were mean to me.

Jim [0:19:30]: And that interaction is really important.

Jim [0:19:32]: And everybody needs to have that...

Jim [0:19:34]: Let's take a step back.

Jim [0:19:35]: I know these calls are are sometimes frustrating.

Jim [0:19:38]: We get a lot of them.

Jim [0:19:39]: Let's take a breath and look at the big picture here, and I got I gotta put my trauma in informed hat on, and I think that's huge, and we all need to be sitting at the table.

Jim [0:19:47]: That way, it's just continuous all the way through.

Ricardo [0:19:50]: Yeah.

Ricardo [0:19:50]: I agree fully that there's a lot of different things to go through just starting from the phone.

Ricardo [0:19:56]: And Karen, I wanna go to you on this part for the dispatch side of it because I know a lot of times, there are classes.

Ricardo [0:20:01]: Right?

Ricardo [0:20:02]: There are classes that people give and everything.

Ricardo [0:20:04]: But I think for you and I starting when we started.

Ricardo [0:20:08]: Many moons ago.

Ricardo [0:20:10]: It was mostly going on our gut feeling on our instinct, listening and hearing something and thinking.

Ricardo [0:20:16]: Something's not right here.

Ricardo [0:20:17]: Mh.

Ricardo [0:20:18]: You need to send someone out again or you need to do this for that.

Ricardo [0:20:21]: You know, it was it was a lot of us listening and having those feelings.

Ricardo [0:20:25]: What are your thoughts?

Karin [0:20:27]: Duh.

Karin [0:20:27]: Absolutely, back in the day in the Olden days as you say, there wasn't a lot of information available.

Karin [0:20:33]: You were taught to be curious, and you were taught to use those gut instincts that drive you.

Karin [0:20:39]: And then there's times that you have those gut instincts, you can't really provide data behind it, are the people that you relaying this information to going to believe you and take that for factual value.

Karin [0:20:49]: Right?

Karin [0:20:50]: And I I love what you say about breaking down the silos because now there is a lot of training available.

Karin [0:20:55]: I think in every academy, there's likely a domestic violence course, and there are other courses that are being offered to those that wear a badge, whether it's law enforcement fire potentially, that may go a little bit deeper, but dispatch isn't getting those either.

Karin [0:21:12]: So it kind of feels like, you know, you get some information but not all and bringing everybody to the same playing field right in the same level of education awareness and understanding, can give all of the perspectives of you know, here's what you're training and teaching, but here's what we experience on the phone.

Karin [0:21:28]: So how can I better ask questions, dive deeper, listen more intently And how can I relay that information more accurately to those out in the field?

Karin [0:21:38]: And I I think there's still so much opportunity to bring all of that together.

Karin [0:21:43]: Now, your dispatcher are probably the best crime analyst because they do follow those patterns and they understand This person's called fifty times, and, yes, it needs to be logged in cat as well.

Karin [0:21:53]: This is a problem.

Karin [0:21:54]: It may not always get flagged at a really high level to responders.

Karin [0:21:58]: And then we kinda have this feeling ricardo of, I gave all this information out.

Karin [0:22:03]: And now I no longer have control what that outcome is gonna be and that is a very stressful place to live.

Ricardo [0:22:09]: Yeah.

Ricardo [0:22:09]: For sure.

Ricardo [0:22:09]: I think one of the things too that sometimes we can rely on is just past experience.

Ricardo [0:22:15]: I I always talk about with folks that there are just experiences that we've gone through, they can maybe help us with specific calls.

Ricardo [0:22:23]: And just for example, really quick before we move on here to the next portion is I had a trainee and it was a potential domestic violence call that was going on, but the phone, you could just hear what was going on in the background.

Ricardo [0:22:37]: And right when the person hung up.

Ricardo [0:22:39]: And I'm listening on the other end, as my trainee is taking this call.

Ricardo [0:22:43]: I heard a pulse, and my trainee went to hang up, and I said, no.

Ricardo [0:22:48]: No.

Ricardo [0:22:48]: Don't don't hang up yet.

Ricardo [0:22:50]: And she's just looking at me.

Ricardo [0:22:51]: And Said don't hang up.

Ricardo [0:22:52]: I said this person is gonna pick up the phone and they're gonna try to call again.

Ricardo [0:22:55]: And a few seconds later, they did.

Ricardo [0:22:57]: And I told my trainee go.

Ricardo [0:23:00]: Now, say something, and then we got people out there, it ended up being okay, but there was a domestic violence situation that was going on there.

Ricardo [0:23:08]: And after all of it was said and done.

Ricardo [0:23:11]: My trainee looks at me and says, how did you know?

Ricardo [0:23:13]: How did you know that that was going to happen.

Ricardo [0:23:16]: And I said, well, first off, I'm old.

Ricardo [0:23:18]: Okay?

Ricardo [0:23:19]: So I remember, I remember what it means to hear a pulse that if you at one time for those who are watching and listening who might not know when there was a pulse before touch tone dial tone, if which something makes me sound that much older.

Ricardo [0:23:32]: If you had one line open and or the line open and someone hung up, but you had the other line open still, the call is still open.

Ricardo [0:23:40]: So that's how I that's how I knew that because as a kid, we used to kind of play on the phone and we would keep that line open.

Ricardo [0:23:47]: So that's how I knew.

Ricardo [0:23:48]: So there's also experience, you know, things that we go through along with the further training they can help us out in situations like this.

Ricardo [0:23:57]: So with that said, Jim, with your experience and being out there in the field as well on certain calls, how tough is it?

Ricardo [0:24:04]: In those quick moments when you're out there when something is going on, to be able to detect or assess what is going on to hear some of those key things to know whether there is some sort of, you know, dangerous form of abuse going on or just something further than what you see.

Jim [0:24:24]: Yeah.

Jim [0:24:24]: And I I think, you know, looking back on, it's all being in the right mindset, and how we're framing it and framing our training.

Jim [0:24:30]: And especially if from an Ems standpoint, you know, the very first thing if we're going through a protocol.

Jim [0:24:34]: It's like, gene safety is the machines safe.

Jim [0:24:37]: Do we have our gloves on.

Jim [0:24:39]: Yes, we do.

Jim [0:24:40]: And now we can proceed, but, like, really thinking about that.

Jim [0:24:42]: And really kinda being perceptive of what's going on around you because just because you respond to this call, and it doesn't come across as the violence in progress or or however we're in a soul call however is gonna be coded, it may come in differently, You know, when it doesn't really get fit into any of the groups, you know, we'll dump it into that sick call protocol or something like that, which can be the gamut of anything.

Jim [0:25:00]: But when you pull up and you're there, and you're just kinda looking around, and you're keying in on certain things, when you're looking at, you know, in this instance I would say my patient, is there story lining up to what they're telling me?

Jim [0:25:11]: Are there patterns of injuries that they're reporting consistent with what you see, the mechanism of injury is the patient at that point hesitant to speak?

Jim [0:25:20]: Or are they looking at somebody else in the room before they answer?

Jim [0:25:23]: Is somebody answering for them?

Jim [0:25:25]: Are you being denied entry right off the bat, Oh, it was a mistake.

Jim [0:25:28]: We didn't call you...

Jim [0:25:29]: And you kinda know the address, picking up on those dynamics, even, like children in the room, like, are you seeing children and what did their faces look like?

Jim [0:25:36]: And again, I think it goes back to a lot of what you're saying with that experience and sometimes that gut instinct where, like, something's not right here.

Jim [0:25:44]: And, you know, where I came from in New York, we were very lucky where the police responded on every Ems room.

Jim [0:25:49]: They were all certified E Emts coming out of the academy, and a lot of times they would get on scene first.

Jim [0:25:54]: So we would usually always have law enforcement unless they were delayed.

Jim [0:25:58]: And not everybody has that.

Jim [0:25:59]: But if you're recognizing those signs and they're not right.

Jim [0:26:01]: And law enforcement not there, That might be the time to say, hey, something's not right here.

Jim [0:26:06]: Something is off.

Jim [0:26:07]: And what I always tell folks too is nowadays everybody's walking around with the radio.

Jim [0:26:11]: Right?

Jim [0:26:12]: Like, we...

Jim [0:26:12]: Everybody's a shooter a radio.

Jim [0:26:13]: I know dispatcher love that when everybody has a radio.

Jim [0:26:15]: Now Right?

Jim [0:26:16]: So But it's the Pa on on the ambulance, And I'm gonna be like, hey, you know, we have a potential domestic violence incident here and is blasting over everybody's radio is blasting over the Pa on the ambulance, and now the potential perpetrators here and what I'm saying.

Jim [0:26:29]: That might be the time to say, you know what?

Jim [0:26:30]: Let me pick up the phone and call in into dispatch.

Jim [0:26:33]: Be like hey, I need you to keep this off the air, but something's not right here.

Jim [0:26:36]: We're safe.

Jim [0:26:36]: We're good, but we need law enforcement from here as soon as we can.

Jim [0:26:40]: And, like, picking up on those scene queues and you know, I'll always fill my my Ems folks out there, Like, if you can, like, where's your safe place?

Jim [0:26:48]: Like, hey, you know, we wanna check out a little bit further, but in order for us to do that, we're gonna bring it to the back of the ambulance.

Jim [0:26:53]: Of your environment where you can control.

Jim [0:26:55]: And at any point, if it starts to get, like, something's not right here.

Jim [0:26:59]: It's, like your safety, like, time to go and just really keying in on those things I I think is is huge, like, picking up on that.

Ricardo [0:27:06]: It makes me think...

Ricardo [0:27:07]: Not exactly the same, But it kinda makes me think of the dispatch here.

Ricardo [0:27:10]: Where we are listening to every single thing that's going on.

Ricardo [0:27:14]: One ear is listening to inside the room and the dispatch center that is, and then the other ear on the call, you're listening, not just to the caller.

Ricardo [0:27:22]: But the entire environment, any little bits of sound, anything like that that is going on for us to as we're saying what that gut feeling to be able to go further and say, look, this is what I'm hearing as well.

Ricardo [0:27:34]: We need to, either you need to step it up or just, you know, type it in the narrative and go from there.

Ricardo [0:27:40]: So there's a lot of different ways, and I I love how you put what it's like being out there because for Karen and I was like, we don't know.

Ricardo [0:27:47]: We only know what people tell us.

Ricardo [0:27:50]: So moving from there, because I I kinda wanna talk about as well for the foundation, the type of training you are doing, but before we get to that that part.

Ricardo [0:27:59]: I wanna ask Karen here really quick because Karen and I were both at the...

Ricardo [0:28:04]: Be the difference conference where Jim you and Nicole were and you spoke.

Ricardo [0:28:07]: And I just wanna ask Karen here really quick for that time where they were speaking, and just how was that for you?

Ricardo [0:28:15]: Because I know for me sitting there listening, and I was sitting up front which I had to turn my hat a few times because seeing the both of you speak, I'm the type of person that if I see people get emotional, I get emotional as well so I kinda turned a little bit, but it was just so powerful to be there and just to hear everything.

Ricardo [0:28:32]: So, Karen, I just kinda wanted to hear what your thoughts were on that as well.

Karin [0:28:36]: It was very emotional.

Jim [0:28:38]: From a

Karin [0:28:38]: former, now one perspective as well in those calls that you've taken that they never leave you.

Karin [0:28:43]: And so many times you wonder and very few you know that you were there to help somebody on that day.

Karin [0:28:49]: And then I'm a mom, I have a daughter.

Karin [0:28:52]: And this is where I will start emotional because you start to think as a parent.

Karin [0:28:57]: These are themes that no parent should ever have to experience.

Karin [0:29:01]: And sitting in the audience, I watched some of the videos, and I I was listening to you both, but when, Nicole stepped out of the room for a particular part of the video, I actually left the room as well, and I went and just spent a little bit of time with her.

Karin [0:29:16]: Because I can also imagine, I don't know that I would wanna be alone during such an emotional time having to...

Karin [0:29:22]: You can kinda hear things from the other side of the wall.

Karin [0:29:25]: And I just got to have a little bit of one on one time with her, and I think maybe that was just me escaping because I probably couldn't have sat through that whole thing.

Karin [0:29:34]: I watched on social media.

Karin [0:29:37]: I watched on the news channels.

Karin [0:29:38]: I followed the story.

Karin [0:29:40]: Every single day every moment every action, never ever thinking I would meet you all.

Karin [0:29:47]: And I thank you for being here and sharing your story, the work that you're doing is so important because it's gonna help young girls like my daughter, like my family members, like my friends, my niece.

Karin [0:29:59]: And so just thank you.

Karin [0:30:02]: That...

Karin [0:30:02]: It was very impactful.

Jim [0:30:04]: Thank you.

Jim [0:30:04]: And thank you for that.

Jim [0:30:05]: And thank you for going out there with her.

Jim [0:30:06]: And I know it meant a lot to her.

Jim [0:30:08]: There's some days we can power through that stuff, and then there's some days it's like, you know, even myself, like, to this day, play some of those same videos, and I'm like, I'm gonna step out of the room for a moment, but I know when to come back in.

Jim [0:30:18]: And I think especially mom the mom being with her that day that meant a lot to her.

Jim [0:30:22]: Thank you.

Ricardo [0:30:23]: And and that's why I wanted to bring this up as well because that's the type of impact.

Ricardo [0:30:28]: That's the power of Gabby story.

Ricardo [0:30:32]: The entire story, everything that you're doing, you being here talking with us and sharing this.

Ricardo [0:30:37]: So with that said, for the Gabby Petito foundation.

Ricardo [0:30:40]: You're focused on bridging this gap that we've been talking about.

Ricardo [0:30:43]: So what some of the that you can tell us, You know, some of the training programs that are being developed or just your approach or different approach to the standard of training as it is now?

Jim [0:30:54]: Yeah.

Jim [0:30:54]: I mean, and we have a board and we have volunteers now.

Jim [0:30:57]: It's still, you know, the four parents or the core of the foundation.

Jim [0:31:00]: And each one of us really has our own area of expertise, Joe Ga father.

Jim [0:31:05]: He spends a lot of time with legislative stuff.

Jim [0:31:07]: I'm, my, god, bless you because you know, I, I want any part of that and he's really amazing at it, and he has the ability to get people on the phone.

Jim [0:31:14]: When we were looking at this domestic violence world and starting to educate ourselves a lot more on it, I look at it personally for myself where I had a career for twenty plus years where I never like to come across something where I didn't know what to do or who to call.

Jim [0:31:28]: And yet, I responded to these calls, and I just remember going back to, like one of my first partners on the ambulance who was, like, ko for volumes.

Jim [0:31:36]: The only thing you gotta know is the winner goes with the cops.

Jim [0:31:39]: The loser goes in the back of the ambulance.

Jim [0:31:40]: It's not for us to figure out, stay safe.

Jim [0:31:42]: Don't get hurt.

Jim [0:31:43]: Okay?

Jim [0:31:43]: You know?

Jim [0:31:44]: And that's that's what I kinda went by.

Jim [0:31:45]: And so I really kick myself in the boat.

Jim [0:31:47]: For saying well, you responded to these calls, but you never gave it a second thought like, maybe you could be doing more.

Jim [0:31:52]: Even if you're not getting to the hospital.

Jim [0:31:54]: And so looking at it, like, we're a very reactive society in general.

Jim [0:31:59]: Like, your house is on fire, call nine one one, you're having a medical emergency you call nine one one, you're in an abusive relationship, call a shelter.

Jim [0:32:06]: And all of those reactive services are very, very much needed.

Jim [0:32:09]: We need to have those reactive services, but let's start being a little bit proactive and how do we start reducing the need for those services, And I think this can really apply your across the whole first responder world as well as trickling into a lot of other places in life, and it's prevention and education.

Jim [0:32:24]: So if we can start doing more prevention and education, maybe we can reduce the the demand on those services by by educating ourselves.

Jim [0:32:31]: For tara and Nikki, the moms, they do a lot of stuff with teen dating violence.

Jim [0:32:36]: They'll do a lot of talks and colleges.

Jim [0:32:38]: They're starting to get into more and more high schools, and they're really awesome in that forum and doing that work.

Jim [0:32:44]: Me doing this.

Jim [0:32:45]: I wasn't sure how I would fit into the Dv world.

Jim [0:32:48]: And then I'm like, let me search for some training out there, and it's very, like, everything else in our world very fragmented depending on where you go.

Jim [0:32:54]: Some have more, some have less, some have nothing.

Jim [0:32:57]: So I'm like, alright, Let me see what I can do.

Jim [0:33:00]: And as I went on, I started building out a couple of programs.

Jim [0:33:02]: The very first one I built out, is something I called powerful partnerships, and it's four domestic violence agencies on learning about the fire Ems in nine one one world.

Jim [0:33:12]: Knowing what our world looks like, who we are, what our certifications are, what standard operating procedures we operate under, how we learn, how to approach us, how to be mindful of our time and how to interact to get us to the table because they they they want to.

Jim [0:33:28]: They wanna do the training with us, but they they struggled making that interaction.

Jim [0:33:32]: And then the next one is getting out into the into the nine one one world.

Jim [0:33:35]: And I developed a program called unseen advocates, you know, the vital role of first responders and domestic violence response.

Jim [0:33:42]: And it really starts depending on my crowd.

Jim [0:33:44]: It...

Jim [0:33:45]: I mean, it could go for nine one dispatch fire, Ems, even law enforcement in there, hospital staff, trying to get all of those pieces in the room.

Jim [0:33:52]: I try to always get the local domestic violence agency in the room as well, and really kinda going from beginning to end like, what this should look like, what to expect when they call nine one one, how we can start that process there.

Jim [0:34:03]: A whole Dv one zero one, you know, non physical versus physical forms of abuse.

Jim [0:34:07]: And then I I take that all the way on through all the way on the scene, seen safety documentation, how to provide resources quietly and safely, if they don't wanna be transported, and even get into the topics like, don fatal regulation, which is very serious, and that's obviously how our daughter was taken.

Jim [0:34:28]: So I I really did started to dig pretty deep into that topic and realizing just how dangerous people who strangle are.

Jim [0:34:35]: I mean, when you talk about who kills law enforcement in the line of duty, like fifty percent of the perpetrators who kill cops in the line of duty, have a documented history of str regulation.

Jim [0:34:45]: And, you know, it's was really considered the perfect crying because less than fifty percent of the people have any external mark.

Jim [0:34:52]: And yet there can be this whole matter of underlying health and medical conditions that can be fatal if that person's not treated.

Jim [0:34:59]: And so educating our distractions to try to recognize those signs, not only to get the right resources there to respond, but also knowing that they are dangerous to first responders that those people who strangle on scene.

Jim [0:35:13]: Getting those flagged in the notes, so law enforcement I was like, hey, like, this is potentially, like, even more worse than normal.

Jim [0:35:20]: And then our respond recognizing it on scene.

Jim [0:35:23]: Even if they're walking talking, their ambulatory, it doesn't mean that there's not something more serious underneath.

Jim [0:35:31]: And kind of bridging that bridging those gaps, bringing all those folks together and then what does that transition look like once we get into the.

Jim [0:35:37]: And so, when I first started doing it, you know, I felt like, I was doing like, an hour training a two hour training.

Jim [0:35:43]: Now I'm up to, like, four or eight hours on this and I'm like, I only been four or eight hours is enough.

Jim [0:35:48]: You know, I could probably do a whole week on it.

Jim [0:35:49]: And so, just trying to get out there in front of, like, a whole multi disciplined audience and spreading that information.

Karin [0:35:56]: So.

Ricardo [0:35:57]: Were there as you were building all of this out, did you have or experience any of those Aha moments?

Ricardo [0:36:03]: Because, again, Gus going back to the beginning of this when were talking about as you were just kinda going through this and and seeing or realizing, like, oh, man.

Ricardo [0:36:12]: Maybe I missed some of these things.

Ricardo [0:36:13]: And I could've have said some of these things, you know, way back when, you know, I was going out there in the field to these different calls and also building out some of these, especially dispatch wise and such, but More so for those out in the field.

Ricardo [0:36:25]: Were there any of those U aha moments that you just kinda didn't expect?

Jim [0:36:29]: I've woken up quite a few times in the middle of the night going.

Jim [0:36:31]: Oh my God.

Jim [0:36:32]: I gotta unintentionally fail that person.

Jim [0:36:34]: I missed that.

Jim [0:36:34]: That...

Jim [0:36:35]: Oh my god.

Jim [0:36:35]: Like, I'm looking back on it now.

Jim [0:36:37]: And I...

Jim [0:36:38]: There's always this one call that I I remember, and I'm not gonna go too much into it, but she would call frequently and unbeknownst to us at the time because we didn't really dig deep into it.

Jim [0:36:46]: You know, we just wrote it off as a mental health crisis, substance abuse issue.

Jim [0:36:50]: Yeah.

Jim [0:36:51]: Yeah.

Jim [0:36:51]: You know, we knew when she was gonna call, and that was it, okay.

Jim [0:36:55]: We're gonna transport her again today.

Jim [0:36:56]: Until the last time, and that was when her ex took her life.

Jim [0:37:01]: And so I didn't give that much thought until just about a year and a half or so ago.

Jim [0:37:06]: And after have going through the deposition.

Jim [0:37:08]: I woke up at the middle of night sweating bullets, and I'm like oh my god.

Jim [0:37:10]: We failed her so bad.

Jim [0:37:11]: Like, we had opportunities.

Jim [0:37:12]: We we didn't even recognize it.

Jim [0:37:14]: And so I never go out there and say, here I am on my soap box.

Jim [0:37:17]: I was perfect.

Jim [0:37:18]: No.

Jim [0:37:18]: I unintentionally made mistakes.

Jim [0:37:20]: And not only do I live with the devastation of losing my my daughter to a tragedy, but I also know that I probably have negatively affected the lives of other people, and I don't want you to be in any one of those positions where I am right now at any point in your career.

Jim [0:37:35]: And this is why I'm out here today talking to you.

Jim [0:37:38]: And and that's how I approach it.

Jim [0:37:39]: I never talk Adam.

Jim [0:37:41]: I'm on their level.

Jim [0:37:41]: I'm very open about myself and my mistakes.

Jim [0:37:46]: And I'm listen, I can't change them, but we can learn from them, and we can do better.

Ricardo [0:37:50]: I just...

Ricardo [0:37:50]: I commend you.

Ricardo [0:37:51]: And, again, thank you for being on.

Ricardo [0:37:52]: Just sharing all of this.

Ricardo [0:37:53]: And Karen going to you here really quick, just listening to some of the stuff that that Jim mentioned here, it just in these last five minutes or so, are there any Aha moments for you because, like, this whole str agent piece, I didn't know that part.

Karin [0:38:07]: No.

Karin [0:38:07]: I think, you know, some of the training we've we've taken, it's been taught or ingrained in us that, well, if they do bad things to animals then they're likely to...

Karin [0:38:15]: But you don't really think about that str agent piece.

Karin [0:38:17]: And And maybe those aren't the questions that we used to ask about either.

Karin [0:38:21]: You know, It was always focused on the...

Karin [0:38:23]: Are they hitting, slapping, punching open pit...

Karin [0:38:26]: Or open hand closed fist sort of thing, and there's is a lot of nuance in that.

Karin [0:38:30]: And those words really matter.

Karin [0:38:31]: And people aren't always life to tell you everything that's happening.

Karin [0:38:35]: You gotta find a way to draw that out.

Karin [0:38:37]: And, again, it's just critical work that you all are doing?

Karin [0:38:40]: And I'm curious too, is there a legislation that you all are trying to work towards to just support this initiative of of getting training and awareness out.

Jim [0:38:51]: So, yeah.

Jim [0:38:51]: We're going very carefully because one of those curse words in our field is that word, like, mandate.

Jim [0:38:56]: It usually equals no funding and, you know, a lot of folks get their back up against the ball.

Jim [0:39:02]: And so right now, it's really awareness and getting that information out there in their hands.

Jim [0:39:06]: And my goal is as we start doing more and more of this training that we start building out, like, a legitimate test bank.

Jim [0:39:14]: Of questions around domestic violence, str regulation and starting to get that into, like, refresher programs and then start building it into the initial training programs and going from there.

Jim [0:39:25]: So I know I'm working with a lot of different people.

Jim [0:39:28]: We're looking at it from a lot of different angles.

Jim [0:39:29]: And and we're trying to use that approach right now.

Jim [0:39:32]: But as I go on, like, I keep thinking of more and more things.

Jim [0:39:35]: And when I'm talking to dispatcher and I'm like, when it comes to str regulation, sometimes, they'll call it choking.

Jim [0:39:40]: You just choke me a little bit even though we know it's it's not choking.

Jim [0:39:43]: Like, oh, we know we gotta dig a little bit deeper, and then it's like, oh, wait, they gotta go by a script.

Jim [0:39:47]: They are an credit agency.

Jim [0:39:49]: If they start devi from that, then that's risking other things.

Jim [0:39:52]: So now do we get into our accreditation what's it odd priority dispatch and all these other agencies that are out there and start looking at that protocol and say, hey, what's bringing some experts on this?

Jim [0:40:04]: Maybe if they answer yes to this just like you have these little sub subcategories we can have.

Jim [0:40:09]: These couple little questions that are really imperative that we ask.

Jim [0:40:12]: And it's for the safety of the person who's calling and also for the people responding and looking at that aspect And I think the other important thing, especially on the dispatch end when you're...

Jim [0:40:22]: You just mentioned some of those questions they told you to ask.

Jim [0:40:24]: Like there's a reason why you asked that because a lot of those are evidence based questions because depending on how they answer can determine what level of fatality, that victim is potentially in in that moment, and if you're asking those questions and law enforcement is trained in that evidence based lethal mentality, it should be sending alarms off in their head when they're responding.

Jim [0:40:45]: So there's all reasons on why we do it, it's like, let's tie it together and let everybody know why versus...

Jim [0:40:50]: The, I gotta go through the script.

Karin [0:40:53]: Yeah.

Karin [0:40:53]: For sure.

Ricardo [0:40:54]: So as we're going kind of into the wrap up of this episode, which has been, again, phenomenal to have you on, and just have a few more questions for you, I just wanna jump into just kind of the technology piece.

Ricardo [0:41:07]: And what I mean by that is as you know, Jim and Karen.

Ricardo [0:41:11]: From the time that we started, there wasn't really a lot.

Ricardo [0:41:14]: Right?

Ricardo [0:41:14]: Going on.

Ricardo [0:41:15]: But the way things have gone and have just multiplied all the way till now?

Ricardo [0:41:21]: Jim, how do you feel or what do you think is needed when it comes to technology, or how do you think technology can impact?

Ricardo [0:41:28]: Either it'd be the response or how people react, I guess more so to domestic violence?

Ricardo [0:41:35]: Like, how they can get the information faster?

Ricardo [0:41:37]: Like, how do you think that has come and where do you see

Jim [0:41:40]: it in the future?

Jim [0:41:41]: So you bring up a really good point and as you talk about technology just made me think of something, and I'm I'm gonna show my age a little bit.

Jim [0:41:47]: And I remember picking a part time shift in one of the fire departments that I was doing some dispatch work for.

Jim [0:41:53]: And I happened to work...

Jim [0:41:55]: Walk in the door for the three to eleven shift and the guy I relieved, and I'm like, alright.

Jim [0:42:00]: How was your?

Jim [0:42:00]: Was, like, the famous word.

Jim [0:42:01]: Quiet.

Jim [0:42:02]: Nothing going on.

Jim [0:42:03]: He walked out in the door and fifteen minutes later, all the power just dropped out of the console.

Jim [0:42:09]: It was the day the Northeast blackout out.

Karin [0:42:12]: Oh, wow.

Jim [0:42:13]: And then the ac acs off in the building, like, nothing's working, but, they had to bring the the rescue truck around and plug the generator into the firehouse, to power up the console, the computers won't work and everything was on paper.

Jim [0:42:24]: And I'm like, man, if that was to happened today, like, would we be able to get through that.

Jim [0:42:28]: So technology has really grown.

Jim [0:42:30]: Sometimes in a Dv world there are some people resistant to technology based solutions, and that's because of the ability of the abuse to access it but it takes really good people in the back end to keep them out of it.

Jim [0:42:42]: And what I'm starting to see is I'm going across the country is growing up in the New York Tri state area.

Jim [0:42:48]: We were rich with resources.

Jim [0:42:49]: You know, I probably have more cops in my county than some of these places have in their entire state.

Jim [0:42:53]: And so technology based solutions like things like what Rapid Sos is doing...

Jim [0:42:58]: They're really important.

Jim [0:42:59]: And I think we're actually partnering with a company right now.

Jim [0:43:02]: You know, we're trying to get it funded, but we do have technology based solutions to do and provide resources to these victims in a very clan way to keep them safe when they might not necessarily be able to drive to a Dvr organization or go to a police station.

Jim [0:43:19]: And I think starting to move towards that more technology based.

Jim [0:43:24]: I think even getting that same technology in the hands of our first responders if if they're on scene, and they wanna provide those resources instead of handing them a piece of paper, which the best way.

Jim [0:43:34]: Like, boom, I got something for you right here, and it's Clan.

Jim [0:43:37]: I think that's really the way of the future for for getting...

Jim [0:43:41]: Especially in our our generation now.

Jim [0:43:43]: Like, I know for my son, like, tell him to pick up the phone to make a phone call I'd rather text.

Jim [0:43:47]: Is there an app for that type of thing?

Jim [0:43:49]: And I think we need to be adapting to the way our culture is going because if we don't, we're missing a whole segment of our population that we can be helping or maybe apprehensive to reach out for help because for whatever reason.

Jim [0:44:03]: So I I really look at technology as there's a lot of good things out there.

Jim [0:44:07]: For us, the things we're looking at is trying to get it funded.

Ricardo [0:44:11]: I love that.

Ricardo [0:44:12]: And and going to you really quick, Karen, before we go into these last few questions here.

Ricardo [0:44:16]: I mean, your thoughts as well On just the technology side.

Ricardo [0:44:19]: And the things that we're able to do now where we couldn't do it before.

Ricardo [0:44:24]: And I think for for a lot of us and me as well, without some of this stuff, I...

Ricardo [0:44:29]: I remember going home and there was that thought of I hope that person was okay.

Ricardo [0:44:34]: I hope they made it okay, or I hope they found them.

Ricardo [0:44:37]: You know, anything like that.

Ricardo [0:44:38]: What are your thoughts?

Karin [0:44:40]: Yeah.

Karin [0:44:40]: We've come a long way and and still have a long way to go.

Karin [0:44:43]: I think the location is the foundation of every emergency call.

Karin [0:44:46]: If I can't find you.

Karin [0:44:48]: I can't help you.

Karin [0:44:48]: So we are doing so much better at being able to provide that accurate precise location through technology and tools and and super proud of the work that we get to do to support that.

Karin [0:44:59]: And then you kinda layer on other information.

Karin [0:45:01]: So we see a lot of our partners that have different types of devices for personal safety, whether it's a panic button or through an app in a rides share or other services where they can a little bit more discreet request for help, but there also is checks and balance is a way to verify validate that that is an emergency as well.

Karin [0:45:20]: And I think that that's one layer of protection because you need maybe various layers.

Karin [0:45:26]: If somebody can't speak on their own behalf, is their technology that can help speak for them or first location.

Karin [0:45:32]: And maybe they're putting things like, in a safety profile and emergency profile dot org or in their device where you put your medical information, maybe you've put in there, that, hey, I do...

Karin [0:45:42]: I have an address, and here's information.

Karin [0:45:45]: I have protection order, and here's who I have the protection order again so that that technology can feed the information for you to the field responders and through nine one one.

Karin [0:45:54]: Because it's all about connecting that information and ensuring it goes out Jim, as you mentioned to all of the folks that are responding?

Karin [0:46:00]: And then how are we tracking that information afterwards?

Karin [0:46:03]: And in leveraging that data, I think, Jim, your point of, how do we provide education on based on what is happening within our community and our organization?

Karin [0:46:12]: Because sometimes there may be a little bit of nuance in and uniqueness?

Karin [0:46:16]: I always have said too, like, not every domestic violence, call or request for service?

Karin [0:46:21]: Is the same they are, like fingerprints.

Karin [0:46:23]: They're very unique, but you can see the patterns the threads and start to identify the level of incident.

Karin [0:46:30]: So I think technology has certainly come a long way.

Karin [0:46:32]: It's available to help, and maybe with Ai we're able to listen a little bit more on that call to say, okay.

Karin [0:46:39]: They're asking about pizza, but the context around why they're asking may indicate that this is not an accidental call for pizza that there is something else going on.

Ricardo [0:46:48]: Yeah.

Ricardo [0:46:48]: So with that said, as we kinda look at also creating this culture safety.

Ricardo [0:46:54]: Jim, what are some ways that instead of having this approach that seems like has maybe always been there of just reacting How can we build this culture for those out in the field?

Ricardo [0:47:06]: In your perspective of creating more of a proactive culture.

Ricardo [0:47:10]: But on top of that, kind of a two part here, what is some advice that you give to those out in the field with just all of this together to was to look out for for different words, different cheese, anything like that.

Ricardo [0:47:21]: What what are your thoughts?

Ricardo [0:47:22]: What's your advice to that?

Jim [0:47:24]: I think we said before, like, once we get...

Jim [0:47:25]: And this is the biggest thing and I think in our world is you don't know what you don't know.

Jim [0:47:29]: But once you start to get a little bit of information.

Jim [0:47:32]: Like, well, I wanna know more and I wanna be able to do better.

Jim [0:47:34]: And I'm gonna say, like, continue to stick with that.

Jim [0:47:37]: And I should say, like, for myself, I'm not...

Jim [0:47:39]: I'm not an expert.

Jim [0:47:40]: I'm a self proclaimed nerd, my heads in the books.

Jim [0:47:42]: I'm always reading things.

Jim [0:47:44]: And so continuing to educate ourselves and continuing to to grow with it as as things change, even stalking, if you were to talk about stalking right now, people you think it's just some creepy person following you.

Jim [0:47:57]: But stalking has gone far beyond that.

Jim [0:47:59]: So, like, understanding all of those dynamics like, how they use devices phones, track your cars and all this other stuff.

Jim [0:48:04]: And I think it's always just, like, continuing to educate yourself, continuing to look out for for things that are red flags because, I don't have hair in my head anymore.

Jim [0:48:12]: But, like I still have some on the back of my neck.

Jim [0:48:14]: And if you're getting like that hair kinda like, sticking up, Like, your intuition is probably pretty correct, and you need to kinda dig a little deeper into that.

Jim [0:48:21]: So I think that's the biggest thing.

Jim [0:48:22]: And when I do this training too, I also take a piece of my training and I wrap it around a mental health.

Jim [0:48:29]: And normalizing certain conversations.

Jim [0:48:32]: We often think about and we've treated domestic violence as a private issue.

Jim [0:48:37]: You know, it happens behind closed doors.

Jim [0:48:38]: It's a private issue.

Jim [0:48:39]: When it's not, it has, like, lifelong lasting effects from children to adults to our hospital systems, legal systems.

Jim [0:48:48]: I mean, you're talking billions and billions of dollars if you wanna put, like, a value on it.

Jim [0:48:52]: But it's not a private issue, and we shouldn't be afraid to talk about it.

Jim [0:48:56]: The same thing with mental health, you know, mental health is a huge issue throughout the world, but really in this country, and we start...

Jim [0:49:02]: We have to normalize those conversations And when we're talking about these things like, also talking about ourselves and taking self reflection for ourselves.

Jim [0:49:10]: And if if we're responding a certain way, if we're coming across as, compassion fatigued, maybe we need to choose some time to do some self assessment to on ourselves and say, hey, Let me take a step back because believe it or not, like what we're exposed to in this job, the same way mental and physical abuse, reprogram the brain of a victim.

Jim [0:49:29]: Our brain is getting reprogram too as well the circuitry in there.

Jim [0:49:33]: And we can fix it, but we just have to recognize it and work on it.

Jim [0:49:36]: And and I think I think kinda tying all that together and realizing, like, empathy is the key and all of

Ricardo [0:49:42]: this.

Ricardo [0:49:42]: I love that.

Ricardo [0:49:43]: Yes.

Ricardo [0:49:43]: Empathy is definitely the key and I think sometimes we...

Ricardo [0:49:48]: We forget about that.

Ricardo [0:49:49]: And I just...

Ricardo [0:49:50]: I love that you said all of that.

Ricardo [0:49:51]: And on the flip side of it for, let's say the public, You know, what is some advice or just some thoughts for the public and general, parents, friends, family members.

Ricardo [0:50:02]: Things that they can or should be aware of, you would mention teens, you know, that Nicole and Gabby mona mom, also, you know, they're teaching these things as well to be aware of.

Ricardo [0:50:12]: So what are some of the things if...

Ricardo [0:50:14]: Know, as long as you feel comfortable, but of course, on advice for the public?

Ricardo [0:50:17]: Things to be aware of or even the safest way to intervene and just offer some sort of support.

Jim [0:50:23]: Yeah.

Jim [0:50:23]: First and foremost, if if you think it doesn't affect you or it's not happening around you it is.

Jim [0:50:29]: It doesn't matter what walk of life you come from, what your soc economical status is what your religious beliefs are.

Jim [0:50:35]: That this affects everyone and anyone.

Jim [0:50:37]: And I was set to have a meeting with an organization of a Massachusetts a few weeks ago, and it and it was a little delayed, and it was because they had...

Jim [0:50:44]: They couldn't even call it a team dating of violence incident in their schools because it occurred in the middle school with, like, eleven year olds that was a very serious issue that required this very big intervention.

Jim [0:50:56]: So we're starting to see, you know, kids, especially in the world of technology.

Jim [0:51:01]: Right?

Jim [0:51:01]: Everybody's got their phones and at the world that our fingertips

Ricardo [0:51:04]: kids are being

Jim [0:51:05]: too exposed to a lot more these days.

Jim [0:51:06]: The world is at their fingertips, and we have to start normalizing and having these tough conversations that we don't wanna have because if we're not having them with them, and they might be getting their information from elsewhere, and it might not be the healthiest.

Jim [0:51:19]: And it really starts with, like, learning boundaries, talking about boundaries, you know, like, got an early age.

Jim [0:51:24]: And even in our friendships, not even in an intimate relationship.

Jim [0:51:28]: If you have a friend that makes you feel bad about yourself, consistently, Like, they got a good friend.

Jim [0:51:32]: That's not a good relationship, and we need to cut off those those negative interactions in our life.

Jim [0:51:37]: But really having those talks about what healthy relationships look like.

Jim [0:51:41]: Even though this person might be an amazing person, but are they really doubting on, you know, or dot on you and love bombing you in the beginning?

Jim [0:51:47]: You know, sometimes it seems like, oh my gosh.

Jim [0:51:50]: This this this is amazing.

Jim [0:51:51]: Secondly to a red flag?

Jim [0:51:53]: Are they trying to isolate you from your friends and family, which they shouldn't do?

Jim [0:51:57]: Do they want you to be their center retention?

Jim [0:51:59]: They want you around all the time?

Jim [0:52:00]: That's another red flag?

Jim [0:52:02]: Are they tracking everywhere you go?

Jim [0:52:05]: Are they asking you for passwords to your social media accounts or share your location on Snapchat, Instagram and all these other things now?

Jim [0:52:13]: Like, these are all red flags?

Jim [0:52:14]: And that is the beginning of a controlling relationship, and that's the root of all domestic abuse, domestic violence.

Jim [0:52:21]: It's the one person trying to gain and maintain power and control over another, and they do it through these course of tactics and there might not be physical violence in every relationship, but it all starts with these course of control tactics and using different manipulation to to control them, and then it gets into gas them and making them feel bad about themselves and making their whole sense of reality seem like it's not real.

Jim [0:52:47]: And so just having those conversations about that.

Jim [0:52:50]: And if you do recognize that someone you know, we your child, a friend is in that relationship, just know that you...

Jim [0:52:56]: As much as you wanna just rip them out of it, like, you can't.

Jim [0:52:59]: Sometimes when we do that, you push a father away, and and then we get upset because, you know, to the outside world, the most reasonable thing is for you to just leave, well, it's not that simple.

Jim [0:53:07]: And so learning how to have those tough conversations, letting your children know that you're a safe person to come to that if they're gonna come to you with a problem, you're not gonna be judgmental.

Jim [0:53:17]: You're gonna listen.

Jim [0:53:19]: You're gonna be open, you're gonna be receptive, and you're gonna be supportive and you're gonna help validate and then try to work through it.

Jim [0:53:25]: And I think that's really key and I think it starts starts in our youth, and that and that continues as we as we get older.

Ricardo [0:53:32]: Excellent information there.

Ricardo [0:53:32]: Just every single thing that you said and Again, it has been amazing to have you on here the impact of Gabby her legacy, the foundation, everything that's going on.

Ricardo [0:53:44]: When you think about five to ten years from now.

Ricardo [0:53:46]: What is the ultimate hope for the legacy of not just the Gabby, but the foundation that bears for name.

Jim [0:53:53]: Honestly, we're working every single day to be put out of business.

Jim [0:53:56]: Our goal is to end one homicide by domestic violence But like, so many others have before us and continue to do alongside of us and domestic violence and intimate partner violence.

Jim [0:54:08]: And that...

Jim [0:54:09]: That's our goal is to keep reducing those numbers if we can, because right now, they're going in the wrong direction.

Jim [0:54:14]: Really put us out of business, and I'll tell you if I would be jumping for joy if that happens.

Jim [0:54:19]: And then, you know, I'll find the next next group of people that need help and I'm and we'll work on that issue.

Jim [0:54:24]: But in the meantime, we're just gonna keep pushing forward with what we're doing.

Jim [0:54:27]: We're gonna continue to educate ourselves.

Jim [0:54:29]: We're gonna continue to use Gabby voice to help others until we can't help anymore, and that's really where we're gonna be.

Ricardo [0:54:37]: Perfect.

Ricardo [0:54:37]: Thank you.

Ricardo [0:54:38]: Again, in Karen, any final thoughts here is we're going into this wrap up.

Karin [0:54:42]: I just...

Karin [0:54:42]: Again, our condolences for your loss, she is a light that is shining through you all now.

Karin [0:54:49]: And what is, I think even so much more impressive and powerful is how you all have come together.

Karin [0:54:56]: In a multifaceted approach that is touching all of these various groups to make full impact.

Karin [0:55:03]: And, you know, it's going from top to the law enforcement community, Ems and fire and you know, D communities as well as our kids who are so impression and may not wanna listen to mom and dad.

Karin [0:55:16]: Yeah.

Karin [0:55:16]: Right?

Karin [0:55:17]: But they're gonna listen to somebody who comes in who has had a personal impact and show them the signs.

Karin [0:55:23]: And that is gonna go with them for the rest of their lives.

Karin [0:55:26]: So thank you for the work that you're doing because it is saving people's lives.

Karin [0:55:30]: You may not ever know about it.

Karin [0:55:32]: But you know that it is.

Karin [0:55:33]: So thank you for spending your time with us here at Safety podcast podcasts.

Jim [0:55:37]: Thank you.

Jim [0:55:37]: Thank you so much.

Jim [0:55:38]: I really appreciate this.

Jim [0:55:39]: Anytime I can get in front of an audience and and talk about this stuff.

Jim [0:55:43]: I think you can see my passion for our family's passion for we're grateful the opportunity.

Jim [0:55:48]: And I'll leave you with this.

Jim [0:55:50]: You know, this is saying I used to have with my firefighters.

Jim [0:55:52]: I probably stole it from somebody.

Jim [0:55:54]: I just can't remember who, but it's build a team so strong.

Jim [0:55:57]: No one can tell who the leader is.

Jim [0:55:58]: And that's what we're trying to do.

Jim [0:56:00]: We're trying to build this collective team.

Jim [0:56:01]: That we might not all be experts and everything, but we surround ourselves with really great people, and it's all for the greater good of helping people.

Ricardo [0:56:11]: Amazing.

Ricardo [0:56:11]: Thank you.

Ricardo [0:56:11]: Again, very much.

Ricardo [0:56:13]: And for those who watching and listening, how can people find out more about the foundation, the training that you guys are doing whether it be a website or social media?

Ricardo [0:56:22]: Where can people find you?

Jim [0:56:23]: Yeah.

Jim [0:56:23]: So, I mean, you can go to Gabby Petito foundation dot org, so that's g a b b y.

Jim [0:56:29]: P e t I t o foundation dot org.

Jim [0:56:32]: Check out our website.

Jim [0:56:33]: We have a lot of great resources on there for them to to check out.

Jim [0:56:36]: We're also on social media on Facebook, Instagram, Tiktok, I believe, linkedin a little bit.

Jim [0:56:42]: So we're always out there trying to post and put educational stuff out there.

Jim [0:56:45]: And I'd also like to say too that somebody listening right now might be experiencing, some type of abuse.

Jim [0:56:51]: And if you're in a Dv situation, Just know that you're not alone, there's people out there that are supporting you and willing to help you.

Jim [0:56:59]: The domestic violence hotline is one eight hundred seven nine nine safe, or you can text the word start to eight eight seven eight eight and do a a text chat as well and reach out for help and they can link you to resources in your local area.

Jim [0:57:14]: So just know that is always an option for you.

Jim [0:57:17]: So I always like to throw that in there too.

Jim [0:57:18]: Perfect.

Ricardo [0:57:20]: Thank you once again, and Jim, we will be right back here with you in just one moment, and Karen.

Ricardo [0:57:25]: Thank you For the opportunity.

Ricardo [0:57:27]: It was just an honor to be here with you.

Ricardo [0:57:30]: Be a part of the safety to gap podcast and as well to be here with Jim as well.

Ricardo [0:57:35]: Thank you.

Ricardo [0:57:35]: Very, very much.

Ricardo [0:57:36]: This was just a very impactful and powerful episode.

Karin [0:57:41]: Yes.

Karin [0:57:41]: Absolutely.

Karin [0:57:41]: Thank you so much for stepping in as c host today, and leaving that again, as you mentioned, impactful conversation.

Karin [0:57:49]: Maybe we'll see you again, Ricardo?

Ricardo [0:57:51]: Yes.

Ricardo [0:57:51]: And just really quick as we're wrapping this up here, as Jim said, if you or someone that you know or experience domestic violence, please call as you said one eight hundred seven nine nine safe.

Ricardo [0:58:02]: That is one eight zero zero seven nine nine s a f e, or you can go to the hotline dot org r g for more resources, it can be found at Gabby Petito foundation dot o r g under find help.

Ricardo [0:58:16]: And also, you're able to also donate it directly to support the mission of the Gabby Petito foundation on their website and for The Safety Gap podcast, it can be heard on all of your...

Ricardo [0:58:28]: Anywhere that you listen to your favorite podcast, you can find The Safety Gap podcast there and also for more information, you can go to, rapid s sos dot com.

Ricardo [0:58:36]: Have a good one, everyone.