The Hair & Now

Mindy Greenstein didn't just embrace her curls; she embraced life itself in a way that many of us strive to do. From discovering the Curly Girl Method to navigating life with cancer, Mindy shares her personal journey of transformation and acceptance. Her story reveals how learning to love her natural waves taught her invaluable lessons about resilience and courage—lessons inspired by her late mother, a Holocaust survivor. Through her candid reflections, Mindy uncovers the profound impact of embracing uncertainty and finding meaning amidst life's adversities.

This episode also features a heartwarming conversation with Chantel, a curly hairdresser from England, whose journey from chemically straightened hair to celebrating her natural curls is a testament to authenticity and self-acceptance. Motivated by her desire to set an example for her daughter, Chantel's story complements Mindy's insights, highlighting the importance of embracing our true selves. Together, their stories of transformation offer listeners a deeper understanding of the beauty in authenticity and the strength in vulnerability.

About the Guest:
Mindy Greenstein is a writer and clinical psychologist specializing in aging and cancer, and she is a cancer survivor herself. She is the author of two books: The House on Crash Corner; Lighter As We Go. Shop her books HERE.

If you’re inclined to donate to the breast cancer research foundation, please use this link: https://www.bcrf.org/

Lorraine Massey is a curl advocate whose lifelong dedication to understanding and caring for curly hair has helped drive a global phenomenon of curly acceptance. As the founder of the groundbreaking Curly Girl Method, she has empowered countless individuals to embrace their natural texture. Lorraine is also the author of three critically acclaimed books: Curly Girl: The Handbook, Silver Hair: A Handbook, and Curly Kids: The Handbook.

CurlyWorld website:
https://www.curlyworld.com/

CurlyWorld Instagram:
https://www.instagram.com/curlyworldllc/

Host: Lorraine Massey
Producer: Susan Kaplan
Engineer: Dan Strong
Original Music: Cyrille Aimee
Show: If Your Curls Could Talk

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:02

Hi, I'm Lorraine Massey, founder of the Curly Girl Method. Welcome to If your Curls Could Talk. Join us as we talk to our very special guests sharing their curly hair journeys, and take questions from you, our listeners. This is If your Curls Could Talk. Welcome, mindy Greenstein. She's an author of two books Lighter as we Go and House on Crash Corner. She is also a psycho-oncologist and has helped thousands of people dealing with cancer. I love this lady a lot because she is the reason why we're actually doing this podcast. She said, lorraine, I think it's time, I think we should do it sooner rather than later, and you're going to find out why as you listen today. Hi, mindy.

Speaker 2: 0:49

How are you?

Speaker 1: 0:51

So if your curls could talk, what would they say?

Speaker 2: 0:55

The first thing that my curls would say is thank you, lorraine, for helping us feel less alone in the world. My curls were originally very thirsty and I didn't know it. So I was getting my hair cut by a very lovely hairstylist, but he had to cut my hair really short, he said because I am a wash and wear kind of girl. And he said that I have too strong a wave and because of it, my hair will not do what I want it to do, and his only choice was to cut it really short. I found your book. The most important part for me was the introduction, when you talked about your own personal experience with your curls and I realized, oh, my hair does all of those things and I had all of those bad experiences.

Speaker 2: 1:39

In reading your book and thinking about coaxing my waves out, I thought, well, this is just fun, it doesn't matter what anybody else thinks, I enjoy it. Then I actually looked for you personally and I found you through your photo shoots, because I'd seen something on Facebook about you. Know, if you're growing out your silver, let us know. We got this photo shoot coming and I had completely missed the date. Oh, that's right. We met on Silverhead, the handbook. We got this photo shoot coming and I had completely missed the date. Oh, that's right, we met on Silverhead.

Speaker 2: 2:09

The Handbook, yes, and normal Mindy would have just said, oh well, too bad. But the current Mindy said you know what? I just want Lorraine to know what she did for me. And so I posted in that Facebook post and it was, I think, michelle, your co-author, who said oh, it's not too late, lorraine would love that Come and join us on our photo shoot. So then I embarked on a lovely friendship with you and a lovely hair relationship with you, and I'm in your book. So that's why my curls would say thank you.

Speaker 1: 2:39

Oh wow, there's so much more to the story there, isn't there, Mindy, after that?

Speaker 2: 2:51

Oh, my goodness. There is One thing I would like to say about the during part is that, to my utter, utter shock, anybody who grows out their gray knows that the growing out part is the nastiest part. You have to really get used to looking a little weird, people making obnoxious comments, and it just so happened I never got so many compliments on my hair as I got during the growing out phase, for whatever reason. I was lucky it was like an ombre thing and young women were dyeing their hair gray. I don't know why, but it looked stylish. To other people they thought I did it on purpose, and this has actually had really, really important implications for even deeper parts of my life. I also have cancer I mention it just because it's part of the story, I don't want it to suck the oxygen out of the conversation and I also have something called lymphedema, which is a product of my treatment for my cancer. And one thing you learn with hair, especially with waves, is there's just so much you can control in life and there's lots that you can't, and you learn to live and enjoy despite it. That's true in cancer too. This is a much bigger subject even than just hair and one of the really fun things about talking to you about it is that hair leads us everywhere. So many different subjects leads us everywhere, so many different subjects.

Speaker 2: 4:08

Now, in terms of my story, one of the most meaningful parts was when I was doing the photo shoots for your book. I was supposed to come in for the final one where, like my hair is all grown out and you really see the final product, which is sort of the point of the whole exercise, and I couldn't come because my mom died that morning. Now, it wasn't a shock. She was very, very ill for the previous couple of weeks and it was a very, very traumatic experience. And I should mention my mom had this fabulous shock of white hair. She was in her 80s and she was a Holocaust survivor. She never expected to make it to her 80s, so she had only recently told me that that she hadn't expected to make it to her teens, and so when she died at 81, there was also this feeling of triumph. You made it to 81, ma. But of course I couldn't come to the photo shoot. And I should also say my mom had a nickname for me. It was Yecky Putz, and that was because I'm very straight-laced and she was totally not. My skirts were not short enough for her, my shirts were not tight enough for her, and she just adored that I was doing these photo shoots for you.

Speaker 2: 5:14

And then I realized that her funeral was going to be the next morning and I actually didn't have anything to do the rest of the day but mourn her and I just I heard her voice in my head, you know, saying what's wrong with you? Go to the photo shoot, have fun. And it was like her voice. It was not a hallucination, but we're such different people and I thought I know that's what she would want me to do. So I called you guys and said is it okay if I actually come this afternoon? Called you guys and said is it okay if I actually come this afternoon? And you said sure, and it was just like I'm diving into a basket of love. You know, when I I got there, everyone was so lovely to me, but I also really felt my mom with me saying oh, my Mindala's at a photo shoot. You know, she was like that. She'd say my Mindala writes books and I'm in them.

Speaker 2: 6:03

And she would. And I didn't always say nice things, because I'm a real straight shooter and I always tell the truth, which was extremely irritating to my mom, who, in addition to being a Holocaust survivor, was also a compulsive gambler, and I wrote about that. She was a real and powerful presence and in fact, she really helps me more than my curls do, with the cancer stuff as well. And what's the name of that book? The book is called the House on Crash Corner and it's really sort of about how people cope with crisis in their lives. And it's about my growing up in a very chaotic home. As you can imagine, I'm also what's called a psycho-oncologist. I'm a clinical psychologist who specializes in cancer and aging and if you have cancer, you really learn to appreciate aging. And it also interviews with my parents about their Holocaust experiences. And I also like to say and it's funnier than it sounds, because it is and my mother was a laugh riot- and I've heard that during COVID you discovered science.

Speaker 1: 7:08

Oh yes, you went back to school somehow.

Speaker 2: 7:11

I'd love if kindergarten curriculums would include hair as the beginning of science. I mean, really little kids could learn science. Everybody's got hair and of course, being a cancer patient, I'm particularly aware of hair. And even now, as I speak, I just started a new treatment and I have no idea if anything it will do to my hair. So that's all science. And when I think about that stuff the science part I'm less scared about the human stuff, because it's really fascinating and it's also ways of learning.

Speaker 2: 7:44

What are the things we can control in life? So much hits us that we weren't expecting COVID, for instance. You have to deal, and if you want to live a life, you have to do that too. And so the curls and also kind of your approach and why we go off in all these directions when I get my haircut, is that everything's in the curls. Hair leads us to science. You know conditioner and how to make your hair the way you want it to. Or psychology, how to live with the hair you can't have. Like, I want your hair, I can't have it.

Speaker 2: 8:18

But, let's love what we have.

Speaker 1: 8:19

Right, exactly, let's love and understand and embrace the hair that we do have.

Speaker 2: 8:23

That we do have, and also without tying up so much of our identity in it that if, for instance, you're in cancer treatment and you lose it, there's so many other parts to me that I'm still left with, no matter what happens to my hair. But I will, by hook or by crook, do whatever I have to to keep it and also keep it in a way that makes me feel good about myself. But it is good to know that if I don't get to keep it, my life's not over.

Speaker 1: 8:52

Absolutely. You talked about the old Mindy, would say this. So when did the new Mindy emerge?

Speaker 2: 8:59

I think cancer brought out the new Mindy. Basically, I was diagnosed with breast cancer almost 17 years ago. I thought it was gone, came back, thought it was gone again, came back and as of six years ago, it was metastatic, which meant it was not going away this time. On the positive side, if there is such a side in cancer, it has, at least up to now, been slow growing, so I might still actually get a full lifespan out of it. As my doctor liked to say you know, my job is to keep you alive long enough so you get killed by something else, which, in case it doesn't sound very empathic, is kind of the perfect thing to say. You know, my job is to keep you alive long enough so you get killed by something else, which, in case it doesn't sound very empathic, is kind of the perfect thing to say to me.

Speaker 2: 9:37

I think that one thing that cancer completely shaped me also as a psycho-oncologist. Now I got to like put my money where my mouth was. I was helping other people deal with cancer without really understanding from inside what it was they were going through, and one of the ways that I got through that initial shock was making use of my cancer, making meaning of my cancer, and that in fact that was an area of my research and that is one of the ways people get through cancer is by finding kind of a meaningful narrative to put it in service of. And that's how I sort of came to publish my first book, because my cancer is in there as well. So one of the things that I learned from my first bouts of cancer that was a before and after thing, like I had the chance of being cured so I could put all my suffering into a little compartment in my life, saying I'm going through chemo now it sucks. I'm going through surgery now it sucks, but at some point it'll all be over and I get my life back.

Speaker 2: 10:39

So that was the first part of my education, but I think I didn't really get educated until it was metastatic and I was sort of in the soup. There's no before and after. This is your life and you don't know where things are going to go. One thing about living in kind of an ageist society is you forget to appreciate that you know the Lorraine-ish of older age might actually be happier than the Lorraine-ish of younger age, certainly the Mindy of older age has been partially because I've had to and also partially because when you're young you have crap to deal with.

Speaker 2: 11:23

You don't have a long history of learning how to deal with crap. By the time you hit 60, oh man, you've had a lot of crap to deal with and in fact this is something I also would talk to cancer patients about, which is that cancer may be the worst thing that's ever happened to you, but it's not the first horrible thing that's ever happened to you. How did you get through those other horrible things? Maybe that can help you a little, just to learn who you are, and that's one thing that crisis does. It helps us learn who we are, both for good and ill. But you know the good is really good. You take real pride and you know, like when I say that I love the way my hair looks and I feel good about it, 20-year-old me would have said what a vacuous person, 60-year-old me, says shut up. 20-year-old me I like my hair and it makes me feel good. What the hell's wrong with that?

Speaker 1: 12:16

Yeah, mindy, can I ask you a question? I can't help when I hear you say my cancer. I just want to say could we change it to the, as opposed to it being yours, or are you okay with saying mine?

Speaker 2: 12:29

That's such an interesting question. Well, I know that I have. My reflexive reaction is that I like my, I don't like the. But now I have to backtrack to try to figure out kind of why that is. And I guess it's because for me it is part of the fabric of who I am how I deal with it, and putting the in front of it gives it almost too much importance. At the same time that I just said, it's part of the fabric of who I am. And I have to say, you know, I have a little amount of respect for it. I mean, look at what I've done to this thing. You know, I've tried to cut it out, I've tried to burn it out, I've tried to poison it out, I've tried to starve it out.

Speaker 1: 13:07

It's still freaking there. It wants to survive, right Everything wants to survive.

Speaker 2: 13:12

My hair is an example. This is my life. You don't get to take everything away. I get to pick the parts that I will work on. I'm doing road game now. I don't know if it'll help me or not. My doctor doesn't know if it'll help me or not, but what the hell? I'm throwing everything I can at it and I feel like you know what? Okay, I feel like you know what? Okay, you're a big adversary. Well, yeah, so am I dude. Now, I don't always feel that way. I have to say. Sometimes it's got me on my knees, and I feel it's very important to say that, because sometimes people talk to me and they think, wow, I know someone who's got cancer and they don't have her attitude. I'm like, please, I have the bad attitude plenty of the time too, and that's another reason to appreciate the good days when they're good, because the bad days suck. They suck a lot, but that's part of the deal, you know, and that's part of the way life works.

Speaker 1: 14:02

Absolutely, and we always talk about the future, don't we? What we're going to do, and we've been talking about this for a long time, haven't we Doing something like this? I'm so happy to have spoken to you today and really had this conversation. We have it in this lovely safe space too. I just love that.

Speaker 2: 14:18

I agree, I'm glad we've been talking about it and I'm glad we're doing it.

Speaker 1: 14:22

Yes, and more to come Next. I love this section is called Call in All Curls. This is where curly girls from all over the world call in and ask me any question they want about curly hair.

Speaker 2: 14:39

If your curls could talk.

Speaker 1: 14:46

Chantel is that you? Yes, hello, lorraine, you're in England, right? Yeah, how are you? I'm good, good, good, so do you have questions for me?

Speaker 3: 14:57

I do. Yeah, I recently become like a curly hairdresser so. I'm quite early in my career. I mean I'm a huge fan, I've read all your books, so I was just wondering just any advice really you have of just a hairdresser starting out in the industry.

Speaker 1: 15:13

And how long has it been so far? How long have you been working with curls?

Speaker 3: 15:17

So I've done about three years training and then I've gone self-employed in the last six months. How's it going? It's really good. Oh, do you know what I just love? Curly hair. I mean mean, I've hated my hair my my whole life. I'm 34 now, so till about the age 27 of just hating my hair, and then obviously having my daughters, I decided to embrace wow, my hair for them.

Speaker 1: 15:43

Oh wow, so that was the impetus. Really you didn't want them to go through what you went through, kind of thing yeah.

Speaker 3: 15:50

So my daughter bless her. She's um, she's eight now. She was about three at the time and she came home from nursery and she was like mommy, I don't like my hair. It's not long and yellow and I think it's just that. You know, when you've passed on, you know curly hair to your daughter but then secretly you hate your own hair and I remember I was like chemically relaxing my hair and straightening it and just doing anything to hide the fact that I've got curly hair.

Speaker 1: 16:17

Wow. So what is your hair like now?

Speaker 3: 16:19

So it's all it's all natural. I've got really textured type 3, really curly, curly hair.

Speaker 1: 16:25

So what is type 3 to you? Because I don't use that language, because I just feel like our curls are so organic and botanical that when I hear type three it just doesn't resonate with me. How would you organically describe your curls? Are they spiral, fractal?

Speaker 3: 16:43

Honestly, do you know what I think? I have a mixture of every type of curl somewhere on my head. I probably have more, say, spiral corkscrew curls than any curls.

Speaker 1: 16:54

So you're multi-textural. That to me, is beyond type three. And what was your hair before? So it was just straightened down to. It was like a straight jacket really.

Speaker 3: 17:03

Pretty much, yeah, and I'm also mixed race as well and I think I would put so much emphasis on my hair and I was almost sort of living for my hair because I wouldn't so much emphasis on my hair and and I was almost sort of living for my hair because I wouldn't want to go, like swimming no, I hated going swimming think, oh no, I can't do this because my hair's gonna go curly. I don't want this. And yeah, it would just sort of dictate what I did in life.

Speaker 1: 17:23

It's exhausting, isn't it?

Speaker 2: 17:25

it was exhausting.

Speaker 1: 17:27

When you met your partner, your beautiful partners, were you curly.

Speaker 3: 17:31

No, I was sort of stray. I was also getting, because obviously the damage is then like a vicious circle. So I'm then relaxing my hair every six weeks. I was then breaking off, so I'm then getting extensions and then it's just the cycle.

Speaker 1: 17:48

Wow. So that one day it was when your daughter came home and said I don't like my hair, and you said that's it, we're done, I'm done, I can't do this anymore.

Speaker 3: 17:58

Yes, I remember, and I think at the time it wasn't straight away. So I remember looking we had like a mirror and I remember thinking to myself how can I tell my daughter her hair's beautiful which it is when secretly I hate my hair, I'm straightening the life out of it? And I just remember feeling so bad that that night I took out my extensions, really like literally. I thought, all right, all these beautiful curls are going to come popping out. But it didn't. It just was like two inches of curly hair and then straight ends how were the extensions attached?

Speaker 1: 18:32

were they sewn in or were they glued in?

Speaker 3: 18:35

no, they were sewn in. So I had cornrows, okay, and then they were sewn in so I literally just unraveled them naively. And then that's actually how I found your first book, the curly girl handbook, because I had no idea.

Speaker 1: 18:47

So did you go online? Did somebody recommend it or were you just searching?

Speaker 3: 18:55

I was just searching. I then found Facebook groups, I then found your book and then I was like looking online about it, yeah, and it was just this whole world. I was like I didn't know any of this, but then everything sort of like made sense.

Speaker 1: 19:05

So what type of work did you do before you became a hairdresser? Or did you always know secretly you wanted to become a hairdresser?

Speaker 3: 19:12

Originally I was into care work and then I had my children. You know I loved being a mum and then I was waiting to my youngest daughter. I've got an even younger daughter, so she's six now. So I waited for her to be older and once I sort of fell back in love with my curly hair. I didn't want women to go through what I went through, so that's what sort of wanted me to. Then you know what I want to help other women and children and anyone just love their love, their curls, beautiful. One question yes, clients that are just sort of starting out and their hair's not sort of looking you know how they thought it would after a certain amount of time. What's that one bit of like encouragement that you could give me to?

Speaker 1: 19:52

give to them. Well, a lot of the times when I really had this moment with one of my clients, you know, I told her a lot. I said, yeah, do this. And then, when she would come in, I'm not a good enough teacher if your hair still looks like this. So I had to go to the backwash and show me. I said, show me what you do. And that's when I realized it has to be broken down to a fine detail and that's why in the book we have girls in the shower and it needed to be broken down because she wasn't cleansing her scalp properly, she wasn't detangling properly. So it was that aha moment that I needed to go deeper. I needed her to show me what she wasn't doing or what she was doing. So you've also got to break down what products they're using, because you can be giving them the best advice, but they might be going home and using horrible, gummy, smelly, silicone-induced oily products and nothing's going to survive or look good with that.

Speaker 1: 20:46

So you have to ask them okay, what are you using? Tell them to go home, put it to water. So, whatever they're using, put it in some water. If it doesn't mix well and turn milky immediately, it's not water soluble. If it looks like a lava lamp, then it's not good for the hair. So sometimes you can be giving them the best advice. The curly girl method is not a product. It is a method of some sort, but it's very simple. But a lot of the times people give up when they're not using the right products. I'm sorry to say that, but it's true.

Speaker 3: 21:15

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 21:16

So I think it's just truly education. Chantel, sometimes you have to give analogies as well. I'll always give an analogy as to why, like, oh, my hair's so unruly. Well, what do unruly children need? Unruly children need a consistent approach. Give your hair the consistency it needs. Just give it consistency and stay with the process and trust it. Trust our hair knows what to do all by itself.

Speaker 1: 21:40

We're too young. You're too young to like you said your hair was dying, that you had to put somebody else's hair in your hair. Yeah, but nobody wants to look at the truth. When you actually give them the truth, they're not happy with it until they see the hair on the floor and then finally it's like okay if you can be as honest as you can. When I first started out, I had people walk out. I had people be mad at me just for the things that I said, not because I cut their hair. It was more like being truthful. But I've seen them come back nine years later, ready because no one's going to love your hair as much as I do, or no one's going to be, as honest as much as I am.

Speaker 1: 22:15

So just stay with it, because the hair has history before they come to you. You have to remember that You're meeting someone for the first time. They're probably 30, 40, 50 or 60 and you have to understand this is a process. It may take a few weeks, a few months for your hair to really be beautiful. Do not rush it. You don't need to use shampoo to get rid of all your products. Just let it dissipate. It will eventually come out. Don't embed it with detergents. So if your curls could talk, Chantal, what would your curls say today?

Speaker 3: 22:45

I'm happy and free and content. Maybe that's three words.

Speaker 1: 22:48

I think they'd probably say they're content oh no, but that's beautiful, that your curls can have three words, because you have three different over three different types of curls on your head so, and do you have any other questions, chantel?

Speaker 3: 23:00

no, I think you've answered everything. Oh, I just can't believe I'm speaking to you. I'm a, you know. I just think you're amazing and what you've done is a real credit to the world.

Speaker 1: 23:09

You know it's so lovely to talk to you and I know that I'm going to meet you one day.

Speaker 3: 23:13

I just know it thank you so much, lorraine. And yeah, you're, you're a really nice person, and I can't wait to meet you one day.

Speaker 1: 23:20

Me too. I'm giving you a big curly hug.

Speaker 3: 23:24

Yes, lovely, all right, thank you so much. Take care um you take care bye, bye.

Speaker 1: 23:31

Thank you to our guest mindy, and our calling chantelle, and thank you so much to our listeners for curling in. Be sure to follow and share. If your curls could talk wherever you get your podcast, it will mean the world to us and it really makes a difference. If anybody would like to submit a question, please send it to info at curlyworldcom or visitors on Instagram at curlyworldllc. Thank you so much and I'll see you next time. This podcast is produced by my favorite producer, susan Kaplan. Thanks to Dan Strong, our engineer, and to Michael Schubra and Chea Ponte, and a very special thank you to surrella may for writing and performing our original theme music if your girls could talk.