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If Your Curls Could Talk
Join The Curly Girl Methods founder, Lorraine Massey, on her new podcast, "If Your Curls Could Talk,” a podcast where we celebrate the incredible stories behind every curl, wave, and coil with a diverse array of Lorraine’s notable clients. From hair journeys that reflect resilience and self-expression to the deep-rooted connection between our hair and identity, we explore the human experiences that make each strand unique. Let’s unravel the beauty, struggles, and triumphs that coil us together—one curl at a time. Available on all major podcast platforms.
If Your Curls Could Talk
Curls are like Jazz w/ Guest Cyrille Aimee
In this episode, we feature two-time Grammy-nominated jazz vocalist (and the singer and writer of our theme music!) Cyrille Aimee. Experience her musical journey, where the rhythm of curls meets the soulful sounds influenced by her childhood friendships with the Roma people. Cyrille shares her creative process in building the theme music for this podcast, inviting you to explore unexpected connections between jazz, curls, and the beauty of nature.
Our "Calling All Curls" segment brings a lively exchange with Maya, a college student from Somerville, Massachusetts, who is on a quest for healthier curls. She shares her struggle with frizz and her desire to embrace her curls without relying on heavy, oily products. Lorraine is on hand to provide a tailored hair care plan that offers Maya a nurturing path forward. A fun twist is that Lorraine checks in with Maya months down the line to see how her hair care journey has progressed.
Tune in for practical hair tips and insights from Cyrille’s musical background!
Lorraine Massey is a curl advocate whose lifelong dedication to understanding and caring for curly hair has helped drive a global phenomenon of curly acceptance. As the founder of the groundbreaking Curly Girl Method, she has empowered countless individuals to embrace their natural texture. Lorraine is also the author of three critically acclaimed books: Curly Girl: The Handbook, Silver Hair: A Handbook, and Curly Kids: The Handbook.
CurlyWorld website:
https://www.curlyworld.com/
CurlyWorld Instagram:
https://www.instagram.com/curlyworldllc/
Host: Lorraine Massey
Producer: Susan Kaplan
Engineer: Dan Strong
Original Music: Cyrille Aimee
Show: If Your Curls Could Talk
Hi, I'm Lorraine Massey, founder of the Curly Girl Method. Welcome to If your Curls Could Talk. Join us as we talk to our very special guests sharing their curly hair journeys, and take questions from you, our listeners. This is If your Curls Could Talk. I'm excited to introduce you to today's guest. She's a Grammy-nominated recording artist. Her music is incredible, her voice is amazing, and if anyone is familiar with Curly Girl the Handbook she's on the front cover. I'm inviting you to take this journey with us. In meeting Sorelle Ame, we will take a deep dive into how she discovered her love for music, jazz and curls. She also wrote and performed our original theme song, sorel, if your curls could talk, what would they say? You see, that is the truth, though, isn't it? That's the truth? The truth.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they have a mind of their own every day. Every day is a different day and every day is a good day and what you just did.
Speaker 1:What's it called in jazz? It's called scatting, scatting. So curls are like scatting in a way. You know, it's improvisation.
Speaker 3:And I think everything is improvisation.
Speaker 1:You know, our life, the music, the hair, yeah, and if we allow right because you're right, if we are in truth with it. We think we're in control, but we're very rarely in control, but we think we are. But curls are like jazz, aren't they Improvisational? I just want to ask from Dominican Republic.
Speaker 2:and so there was always music in the house like salsa, bachata, merengue, and my mom and my sister and I we loved to dance, so to me music was made for dancing. That was my relationship to it. And then, when I was around 14, I was living in this little village in France on the outskirts of Paris, and it's a village where there's a Django Reinhardt festival. Django was a gypsy guitar player and he's legendary. He died in 1953 and was buried in my village and so every year, because he was from there, and every year there's a Django festival in his honor and gypsies from all across Europe come in their caravans by hundreds and they set camp in the field. And this is I'm talking about a little village that 2,000 people, and when it's festival time it just doubles in size and it's guitar playing day and night around the campfire, going to Django's tomb and just honoring him with the music.
Speaker 2:And so when I was little, I would go to the festival every year just because it was free for kids and they had stands with Nutella crepes and stuff like that, and the music was not what was getting me. One day I was on my bike and this little gypsy girl comes and she's like I can make a towel, and I made her repeat three times because I couldn't understand her accent. And then I understood she wanted to borrow my bike and so I was like yeah, sure, and she called her two cousins and they all three of them hopped on my bike and I was like, oh, and they were like, come on.
Speaker 2:And so I hopped on the bike with them and we went down the hill and we became best friends. And so then I started hanging out in the gypsy campsite and fell in love completely with their way of life, their way of seeing the world. They're very in the moment. They live every day like it's their last, and so by getting to know them and getting to feel that, I started to understand their music, which was the same. It was a music of the present moment, a music for community, a music to share while people are cooking, a music that has no agenda other than just to feel good and celebrate. And that's when I fell in love with the music.
Speaker 1:How did you know that you had a?
Speaker 2:voice Because of the response of people. I don't think I have a voice, I just like to sing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and everyone was saying oh Sorrel, you sound amazing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I guess I never stopped and told myself oh, I want to be a singer. I just thought singing is fun, I want to do more of that, I should learn more songs. And then, after a while, people started giving me money for it.
Speaker 1:And I was like whoa, I guess I'll keep doing it. Funny, that's funny, but that's again. That's that organic. You know the accidental amazing singer. How did you go from meeting this?
Speaker 2:amazing community that you spent so much time with, to jazz. What was the journey? Well, they play jazz. Jazz is a term that it doesn't really mean much to me. Jazz is not a style of music, it's a way of playing any style of music, and it's really improvised music. And so they play the standards, they play Sweet Georgia Brown, they play Take the A-Train, but they improvise. They just rip these solos on the guitar. And so I started learning Django's solos by heart. I started learning Stefan Grappelli's solos by heart. Who's the violinist who played with Django? And then one day I came across Ella Fitzgerald, and so I started learning her solos by heart.
Speaker 2:And then I wanted to do my own, but I didn't know what to say.
Speaker 2:I didn't know if I was supposed to say doobie doo or shoobie, wah, you know.
Speaker 2:And one day there was the festival and I was supposed to say doobie doo or shooby, wah, you know. And one day there was the festival and I was looking for my mom because she had my keys or something, and there was music everywhere and there was a concert in a boat and I went down the boat to see if she was there, and it was the middle of the concert and the guitar player on stage was scatting. He was doing the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen. He was going like and it was awesome, and at this moment I realized you just got to come out with whatever feels natural. He didn't like practice doing this sound and it just had to come out. And so it sounded good because it's real, it's honest, and so that's when I scattered for the first time, and then I just learned a very valuable lesson that it's really all about having fun and challenging yourself and always getting out of your comfort zone and discovering new colors in the music, new sounds and connecting.
Speaker 1:Yeah it's amazing, that really is amazing, and your voice is just always ready to go. Like today. We had this amazing experience right in the studio, just having our own private little session. Yeah, so as you listen to this podcast, when you listen to the introduction, you know who is singing in the introduction, and it is surreal.
Speaker 2:It was built.
Speaker 1:It was built, wasn't? It Right in front of your eyes, right in front of our eyes and our ears, incredible. So we started with one thing, and then you said oh, why don't we add this? And then why don't we add that? Oh, that needs a shush.
Speaker 2:So the studio is really fun. The studio is a very different animal than the stage. I thrive in the stage because I do so much of it and I love the connection with the band and with the audience and I love getting up on stage and not knowing what's going to happen and being all ears and going with whatever happens. You know if it doesn't go as planned, which it's supposed to not go as planned, and it doesn't go as planned, it doesn't mean that's wrong. It means oh, listen even more. And in the studio it's kind of like you're under a microscope and I love that as well. It's a whole nother side of my musicianship that's challenged and I love it.
Speaker 1:And what you said about listening is the listening part, isn't it? It's like you said. You know, I probably see certain things in curls that nobody else does, and you hear things that nobody else does. Like that you can't train anyone. It probably is just there, isn't it? I mean you can train someone to a certain is. Just there, isn't it?
Speaker 2:I mean you can train someone to a certain degree, but I think if everyone can learn to listen, it's something that we kind of forget how to do. We all know how to listen and then we start forgetting because we're distracted so much by so many things, but also then the ego takes a bigger space and we can't listen because the ego is so loud. But yeah, being a good musician starts with listening, which is why I love living in New Orleans, because the cool thing about New Orleans and it reminded me when I first visited there, it reminded me of being around with the Gypsies, where the music is not only for musicians, it's for everybody, and you are a part of the music, whether you have an instrument in your hand or not. Because if you're present, if you're listening, if you're actively listening, you're a huge part of the music.
Speaker 1:Actively listening. Yeah, that's really really beautiful, beautiful way of describing that. But you're not only in New Orleans, you're also in Costa Rica, right?
Speaker 2:I'm everywhere. Lorraine, Costa Rica is my nature home. It's a place where I go to write songs.
Speaker 1:And you said that you lost your phone at one point.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I decided after I lost my phone. I decided to not get a new one for nine months and it was amazing. Yeah, like in two weeks. In two weeks I felt detox. I could see clearer. I had physical symptoms that were. It was really, really crazy. I could see clearer, everything was sharper and I could remember things much better.
Speaker 1:After only two weeks yeah, yes, we, we all should do that you're going to be teaching. You said two, maybe in Costa Rica.
Speaker 2:I have a vision of organizing music workshops over there. To me it's almost like it's the opposite of learning things, it's unlearning. It's more of that, it's more unlearning misconceptions that we have, that a lot of my students come and they're like, well, I don't really have a voice or I don't know how to belt or I don't know how to read music, so I feel like I couldn't sing jazz and I'm like unlearn all of that. I don't read music and look where I am. And it's really about listening, remembering things that we already know and getting rid of all these obstacles that we put ourselves, you know, in front of us.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I call them obstacle, illusions.
Speaker 2:Of course you do.
Speaker 1:Right, I mean, it's so true. It's like you were saying I'm learning. I feel that's what I have been doing with people. You know, we're trained as hairdressers to straighten everyone out, and so I have to unlearn everything. We've been trained to go downwards with everything, whereas actually curls are upwards. You know they spring up. We've been pulling them down in this like locked straight jacket position. So it's a similar. We're always looking for analogies.
Speaker 2:Exactly yeah. When I'm improvising on the stage, some students are like I have ideas in my head and I don't know how to make them come out. And to me it's the opposite. Don't't start at the head, open your mouth and just allow what wants to come out to come out and fall in love with that.
Speaker 1:You see it, that's totally what I could use that for curly, like, stop thinking about what you want for it, let it show you what it is.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you taught me with the, with the frizz. Yeah, when I came to you last year, it was and I was like, oh, frizz, and you showed me how frizz is a defense mechanism.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there's never going to be a cure for frizz ever. It's never going to go away. We can try and eradicate it, which most products say things like that but it's not healthy for the frizz. The best treatment you could do is go to Costa Rica in the rain and allow your hair to just open up to the atmosphere. That would be the best treatment you could give your hair in the world. Take a week off. Take a day off, say, if you're not doing anything. When was the last time our hair was naked? Probably the moment we were born, and then we got washed with detergent the minute we came into this world. So we've been putting stuff on us ever since, and it's so lovely to let your hair be free and actually feel it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I have a question, maureen. Yes, what do I do as a person who travels a lot, who lives out of her suitcase and when I'm not, I'm in the middle of the jungle. What do I do if I don't have my favorite hair product?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And I have to perform, or whatever. What can I find in the kitchen, yeah, or at the grocery store?
Speaker 1:Okay, so it's a really good question. The best thing is aloe vera gel from the aloe vera plant.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:The best thing because it's water soluble. It goes in and it comes out. The thing is, we need products that when they go in, they shouldn't stay in and they stay in for too long and then they make their hair gummy and dull and it plasticizes the hair and then it stops the hair from allowing it to go to the atmosphere where it wants to, naturally. And coconut water, not coconut oil. Coconut water, because the water is sugary In the sugars. We put sugars in a lot of products too. We can make a gel from it.
Speaker 2:Oh, I didn't know.
Speaker 1:You could make a spray out of coconut water that mixed also with the aloe vera gel. You can rinse your hair with water, because water is an amazing elixir. The only thing is it doesn't give us moisture, but it really cleanses when your hair is really soaking. Get the aloe vera gel and you just squeeze it in slowly and I think if you let it dry quietly, you'll probably get a lovely curl.
Speaker 2:I've tried aloe vera gel and it works really well.
Speaker 1:It's so pure If you can keep it in the fridge. You can buy your aloe vera gel from anywhere. Now, keep it in the fridge. You can mix it with a bit of coconut water, a few of your favorite essences, like an orange essence that you can actually cook with. We are organic. We're natural. That's what we did a long time ago, you know. Anyway, we must have like all the things that people used. It's like farm to table. They say farm to table. Farm to table was always around because everything we got was from the farm. So this idea of farm to table is a new thing. It really isn't, but farm to hair would be. It's really good. So you can use some of the things in your environment.
Speaker 1:We were born in water, right? So in a way, there's a reason why we love being by the ocean because we are water. We're amphibious in a way. We were born in water, we came from water. Our sweat is salty, our blood is salty, so we come out of the water and we dry up on land. Anything that comes out of the water, like the seaweed, is moving around and then as soon as it's on land, it just dries up. So we're always in this continuous flux of dehydration, hydration. So that's why we have to keep drinking water. We have to keep doing these things. We're never not going to be not doing anything to our hair. We'll always have to be applying some kind of moisture in order to move through.
Speaker 2:Thank you.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much for being with us. Thank you, Lorraine. Much love to you and the joy that you spread for everyone Joy, hope that we all feel. Thank you. Next, I love this section is called Calling All Curls. This is where curly girls from all over the world call in and ask me any question they want about curly hair. Who do we have on the phone right now? Hi, this is Maya. Welcome, Ask us anything.
Speaker 3:Okay, yeah, I mean, I'm so excited to be talking to you right now. I'm 22. I'm living in Somerville, Massachusetts, and I'm having a real trouble with my hair. I have curly, wavy hair and I can't seem to figure out how to keep it. Either my hair is really really dry and almost brittle and frizzy, or I can keep the curl, but then it becomes really heavy and oily and I'm wondering if you have any advice as to how to keep the curl. Hold my curl, but without it feeling like it's so much product that it becomes oily.
Speaker 3:Are you using oils in your hair Products that say there's oil, I use a product's a really lightweight oil to help with the frizz and I find that that helps hold the curl in my hair but makes your hair oily at the root yes, yeah also, I find my hair gets really oily, really quickly yeah.
Speaker 1:So oil and silicone, they're not water soluble. So it is an anti-umectant, so it's not allowing humidity in, but over time the cuticle becomes sealed. And then what's happening with your scalp? Because it's probably covering your scalp, your scalp is going on overdrive because it's not breathing. A lot of the oils are silicone. They call them oils, but a lot of the time they're silicone.
Speaker 1:Silicone is a very inexpensive, cheap byproduct. It is not really meant for hair. Silicones are fantastic for your car windows, your bathroom sealant, for your shower, but when it comes to our hair, it does give us that quick fix. So that day when you put it on, you really love it for a minute and then all of a sudden it turns on you. So it's not sustainable. So the scalp is an extension of our facial skin, but you would never put any of that stuff on our face, would we?
Speaker 1:So what I would do if I was you is I get your products, the ones that you're using, put them in a bit of water and if they mix they could be water soluble, but I doubt it. You'll probably find that if you put them in water they won't mix, so that means they're not water soluble. That's not good for us. We need things that go in and come out. We don't want things that go in that never comes out. It's not vegas, but we need sustainable products that keeps the ph balance of our hair as it is. If you're not doing anything when we can try and detox from everything, don't put anything in your hair for a while. Rinse it with sulfate free or silicone free conditioner. Just use water. Let it breathe. That is so good to know. Thank you so much. You're welcome. So may I ask you a question? Do you brush and comb your hair?
Speaker 3:I brush it once I detangle it, yeah, and then's it, and then I don't brush it again.
Speaker 1:Okay, so is that once a day you do that?
Speaker 3:Maybe. Yeah, I am unfortunately a chronic hair washer, and so it ends up being once a day.
Speaker 1:No, but that's your cup of coffee. A lot of people have this their habits. This is your habit. So, whatever you do, if you are brushing your hair which I don't recommend, I mean I feel like using your fingers to detangle gives you a connection to the hair that you will not get from a brush. So if you have a knot with a brush, you beat it out with your fingers. With conditioner in it, you will gently pry it out because you know every time you hear that rip, it's a breakage that accumulates one day, 365 days a year.
Speaker 1:You do that. Your hair is exhausted. It's exhausted from being beaten by a brush. So if you are brushing your hair on a dry surface, that will fuse and confuse your cuticles and your your hair, because there's no fluidity in that. If you are going to put anything through your hair which I don't recommend but if you're going to, your hair must be highly conditioned. So there's a fluidity when you're organizing your curls during the cleansing process, but do not brush or comb on dry hair because that will ravage your hair.
Speaker 3:I promise I will definitely do my best to be gentler with my hair. I really appreciate.
Speaker 1:Oh, you're welcome, thank you for your questions and take care. Thank you, you too, bye, thank you, bye. It's not enough to want to have healthy hair. You have to apply the advice that I'm giving you just long enough to see the difference, and then, from there, you'll be on autopilot and habits will have changed. So let's fast forward and check in with Maya. Hi, how are you? I'm good, how are you Good, so thank you for following up with us. So I'm really curious how are your curls today?
Speaker 3:My hair could not be more different than it was a couple of months ago. In so many ways it's honestly shocking, like if you go back two or three months to now, not only have I noticed a difference, but so many people in my life have noticed a difference too in the health of my hair.
Speaker 1:It's music to my curls when I hear that again, it's not what you've been doing, it's what you've not been doing. That's the difference, isn't it?
Speaker 3:Yes, my friends used to make fun of me. I would wash my hair once, sometimes twice a day, and now I wash my hair at most every other day. I try for every three days. Great, and I don't brush my hair anymore. Great, oh my God. I let it dry and that's it. I don't shampoo my hair anymore. Have you been using a sulfate-free cleanser? I've been using your sulfate-free cleanser actually.
Speaker 1:Oh good, and have you been leaving a little bit of conditioner in the ends, because it's the ends that really need baby in too, because they've been around a bit longer.
Speaker 3:I have Good, and if I think back, even three months ago, I was experiencing way more shedding than I probably should have Right now. That is so not a concern. My hair feels healthy and strong and is breaking less. Wow, that's amazing. I'm just so happy with that.
Speaker 1:Oh, maya, I'm so happy to hear this, and our hair it's. You know, we wear it every day of our life, so it's not enough to want to have healthy hair anymore. We have to get into a little routine. You just stay with it. Keep your hair hydrated, pH balance, free from all these chemicals and silicones and laminates and things that build up, and your hair will breathe. Your hair knows what to do. It really does. We're the ones that get in the way a lot of the time, totally. If you really do talk about your habits that have broken, what were the ones that you feel have been broken and they're gone, you don't need them anymore I think brushing my hair is the big one, yes, and washing it every day.
Speaker 3:For a long time, I washed my hair every day because I felt like my hair wasn't clean unless I shampooed and washed it every day, and that's not how I feel anymore. Good, and I also feel like I'm embracing the wave. My hair is not the curliest, but it's very wavy when taken care of properly, and I oh oil that properly and I oh oil. That's the big one. Sorry, I also put oil in my hair after every wash and I haven't put oil in my hair in three months.
Speaker 1:Great, and I see the difference. And it's moisture retention. That's amazing. That's so amazing. You'll see from now on, too, and you'll find that you won't have as many dead ends, you won't be needing as many haircuts, because your hair will just be growing. It won't be as distressed as it was when we talked last. They're two very big ones brushing, which fuse and confuse the cuticles, oils which laminate and build up on the hair. So you've just been using your fingers to detangle.
Speaker 3:I'm definitely trying to be very gentle and I think it's breaking less. I was always someone who used to have a lot of breakage at the top of my hair from just being really rough with a brush.
Speaker 1:Have you been giving yourself some scalp massages? So when you sit quietly, when you're on the plane, when you're traveling, sometimes just sit in and quietly give yourself a nice little scalp massage. It's so good for our hair follicles. There's so many blood vessels around them For them to just be touched and gently nourished by just your touch. It's so good for the hair. I think it's a very healthy. Part of healthy hair is to give yourself regular scalp massages.
Speaker 3:That's good to know. I didn't know that. I will incorporate that into my routine.
Speaker 1:And you've stopped touching it as much. Are you still putting your hair up and down, up and down, or are you allowing it to just be down?
Speaker 3:I put it up in really nice soft scrunchies rather than in the harder black elastics. Good, and when I do put it up, I put it up on the top of my hat in a very loose bun.
Speaker 1:Good, but it's good that you're aware now it's the beginning. There's going to be so many new things, things that we forget about. You know, even just putting our bag on our shoulders, our backpacks when we're hiking, our hair gets trapped. So these are just little things that you'll just be aware of. Again, our hair is very fragile. It's a fine fiber and whenever you hear a break or a tug or a pull, you might just get one hair, two hairs coming out. But over time once a week, twice a day, five times a day it builds up. But I feel like you're doing great and I really am just so happy and proud that you're loving your hair.
Speaker 3:again. You're falling back in love with your hair. I am, and it's so much thanks to you. So thank you so much for teaching me everything that I know.
Speaker 1:Oh well, have a great rest of your day. Thank you, maya. Thank you, bye, bye, take care. I'd like to thank our listeners and our beautiful guest, sorrel Amei. Thank you so much, maya, for calling in. Be sure to follow and share. If your Curls Could Talk, wherever you get your podcast, it will mean the world to us and it really makes a difference. If anybody would like to submit a question, please send it to info at curlyworldcom or visitors on Instagram at curlyworldllc. Thank you so much and I'll see you next time. This podcast is produced by my favorite producer, susan Kaplan. Thanks to Dan Strong, our engineer, and to Michael Schubra and Chea Ponte, and a very special thank you to Sorrella May for writing and performing our original theme music. If your girls could talk. If your girls could talk.
Speaker 2:If your girls could talk.
