.png)
If Your Curls Could Talk
Join The Curly Girl Methods founder, Lorraine Massey, on her new podcast, "If Your Curls Could Talk,” a podcast where we celebrate the incredible stories behind every curl, wave, and coil with a diverse array of Lorraine’s notable clients. From hair journeys that reflect resilience and self-expression to the deep-rooted connection between our hair and identity, we explore the human experiences that make each strand unique. Let’s unravel the beauty, struggles, and triumphs that coil us together—one curl at a time. Available on all major podcast platforms.
If Your Curls Could Talk
Being Bold about Hair
In this deeply moving episode, we meet Mindy Greenstein, a woman who has lived with metastatic breast cancer for over 17 years. Mindy shares the profound emotional journey she experienced after a medication change caused her to lose all her hair, including her eyebrows and lashes. What might have seemed like a devastating loss became an unexpected gift—liberating her from a lifelong fear of vulnerability. She reflects on how this transformation reshaped her sense of self, strengthened her relationships, and allowed her to celebrate milestones like watching her son graduate from college.
Lorraine Massey joins Mindy in reflecting on resilience, community, and the power of authentic connections. Together, they explore the emotional impact of beauty, from Mindy’s experiences with wigs made of natural hair to a listener’s journey of embracing her natural curls and, over time, her silver hair in Miami’s humid climate. Through heartfelt conversations and practical hair care tips, this episode celebrates self-expression and the strength found in embracing life’s imperfections.
Whether you’re facing adversity, redefining your self-image, or simply seeking inspiration, this conversation is a testament to the healing power of support, community, and the beauty of embracing your authentic self.
Lorraine Massey is a curl advocate whose lifelong dedication to understanding and caring for curly hair has helped drive a global phenomenon of curly acceptance. As the founder of the groundbreaking Curly Girl Method, she has empowered countless individuals to embrace their natural texture. Lorraine is also the author of three critically acclaimed books: Curly Girl: The Handbook, Silver Hair: A Handbook, and Curly Kids: The Handbook.
CurlyWorld website:
https://www.curlyworld.com/
CurlyWorld Instagram:
https://www.instagram.com/curlyworldllc/
Host: Lorraine Massey
Producer: Susan Kaplan
Engineer: Dan Strong
Original Music: Cyrille Aimee
Show: If Your Curls Could Talk
Hi, I'm Lorraine Massey, founder of the Curly Girl Method. Welcome to If your Curls Could Talk. Join us as we talk to our very special guests sharing their curly hair journeys, and take questions from you, our listeners. This is If your Curls Could Talk. Today we are thrilled to bring back my good friend, mindy Greenstein. She is an author, speaker and a psychologist who specializes in cancer and maturing and has been living with metastatic breast cancer for many years. Join us as Mindy shares her uplifting and surprising journey after being told her medication needed to be switched. If you haven't heard Mindy's first interview yet, be sure to go back and take a listen. So welcome back, mindy. Welcome back to the podcast. How are you? How are you feeling? What has happened since we last saw you?
Speaker 2:Oh, my goodness, so much has happened. Well, I will start by saying I'm in a good place, that is what we want to hear.
Speaker 2:But I will also say that it's been quite up and down and quite challenging. As you recall, when last we met our heroine, she was just starting a new cancer treatment and she might or might not lose her hair and what's going to happen? So drumroll, please. I lost every hair on my body. This was not the way I wanted it to go and it's been extremely challenging. But I'm ending up in a good place. But I've got lots of adventures to tell you about.
Speaker 2:So when you think cancer, a you think baldness and B you think death. Well, I've had cancer now for 17 years and I'm pretty sure I'm still alive, based on all the evidence that I see. And it wasn't until this year that I went bald. This was actually my first time and one thing that I realized when I finally lost all of it, it was very liberating because for certainly the last seven years I've always been waiting for that shoe to drop, and I wasn't consciously waiting, it was just always there. And it was only once I was totally bald that I realized that that one particular stress had just completely lifted. I had many other stresses that replaced it. So I'm not saying thank you to cancer, but it was notable that this fear I had okay. So the worst thing happened and now I get to deal. Can I, can't I?
Speaker 2:Well, I can as it turns out, and I feel like it was a road that has really, really taught me a lot, but the most important thing is a certain kind of perspective In particular.
Speaker 1:Man, I put so much energy into just this hair thing Can you take us back to those early years right after your diagnosis?
Speaker 2:When I was diagnosed 17 years ago, my younger son was five and I did not know would I get to see this kid grow up? And if I didn't, would he remember me when he grew up? And, as you might expect, it was a rather upsetting thought. In two days I'm attending his college graduation.
Speaker 1:I cannot wait to see the pictures of that too. And he's a curly boy too, isn't he?
Speaker 2:Not this one. This one has straight hair. This one is very preppy looking. In fact, the older one refers to him as coming from the rich side of the family because he has this very preppy look.
Speaker 1:I think your son may have curls if he grows his hair.
Speaker 2:Oh well you know, I shouldn't speak. This is something you would know better than.
Speaker 1:I I think everybody has curly hair. Unless I find out otherwise, you would know better than I.
Speaker 2:I think everybody has curly hair, unless I find out otherwise. So he does have this one particular wave, which my husband refers to as a Gumby, because it goes like of course it's a podcast, so your listeners can't see this, but there's this huge, almost pompadour-y thing that happens just when he wakes up in the morning and he doesn't do anything to it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a wave to me. Any bend, even the slightest bend, it's like wow, there's a possibility. You must be right about that. Tell us a little bit more about what you're doing about your no hair.
Speaker 2:Okay. So that has been multiple adventures and, interestingly, it actually hasn't been the hardest one. The hardest has been my brows and lashes. And again, out in podcast land. You can't see this, but Lorraine will attest to the fact that. Can you tell I have no brows or lashes. You look beautiful. I have to say, lorraine has been such an amazing part of this adventure.
Speaker 2:As I mentioned last time, one of the things that gave me strength was that I knew she was going to help me, and indeed she did. In the beginning, every day I went a couple of weeks before my hair started falling, I would wear different hats and wear different scarves and try to find a look. My favorite look was what I called my mosh pit look, which lasted for all of two days, and then too much hair came out and I needed to find a new one. This is one of the ways in which losing it all was kind of liberating, but I finally decided you know what I need, lorraine to cut my hair really short. I'm not going to have long hair, I'll be lucky if I have anything. So we hair really short. I'm not going to have long hair, I'll be lucky if I have anything. So you made a house call and you came over At that haircutting event.
Speaker 2:It became really clear when you cut my hair that there's no way I'm going to be able to keep this hair at all, because there were already these huge like wastelands of scalp that were completely visible through whatever hair I had. But even though I knew where this was leading, I just didn't have it in me to take it all off yet I just wasn't ready. I didn't even look at wigs at all because I was putting all my energy into how to make the most of the hair that I've gotten All this time. The doctors didn't know, the nurses did not know the hair stopped falling out, might stay put at some point. So I had to have faith that I was going to keep it and I didn't, and I think I managed to go all of three days before I called you and said I think you need to shave it off for me today. And sort of the pièce de résistance was that once I was totally commando. My son my preppy comes from the rich side of the family. Son was just amazed at what he described as my unnaturally symmetric scalp and he kept looking at my head and rather than seeing even an ounce of like horror, which is what I would have expected. He was just sort of amazed. I still got to keep my brows and lashes for a while. They went the last.
Speaker 2:But then came the whole wig adventure and that was somewhat nightmarish, especially coming from the whole curly girl tradition. You know, I found normal size wigs are too big for me and I have really sensitive skin on my scalp and it was really sort of a nightmare finding a wig. Ultimately, I knew I was going to have to have something custom made. And also for me, unlike people in the early parts of the whole cancer thing, if I'm lucky, I'm going to be bald for a long time, because that means my meds will continue working for a long time. If I grow my hair back, it means that my meds stopped working. So, finding the right wig maker who understands the whole no, I don't want to be blow drying and using curling irons and this is and that's. No, I don't want to. But I managed to find a fabulous, fabulous guy and he's terrific. He's a real artist, artisan and he really understood the whole. Yeah, I don't really want to brush it, although you can't get away with not brushing a wig at all.
Speaker 1:What about shampoo? You don't shampoo it either, do you?
Speaker 2:He suggested a tiny bit of baby shampoo, but I'm thinking I could use a tiny bit of at least Non sulfate yeah, at least a sulfate free, but very, very, very little. I hardly have to wash it at all and I start using my fingers, but at some point I just say fuck it and. I have like a wide tooth comb, but then I just say, fuck it again.
Speaker 1:I'm using the brush, and you know whatever, you probably feel the need to brush and comb because you are using shampoo. Even baby shampoo is still a detergent. It dehydrates and it tangles the hair. You need to treat your wig just like you treat your own hair.
Speaker 2:I can't be completely kosher, but I use your gel, the leave-in lover, leave-in lover. Right, I use the leave-in lover. I actually still use your, not the shampoo, the chamfri for my scalp yeah, it's very hydrating. Yes it's great. So that's been a whole learning process too, because I kept feeling like there were points where oh, I better not tell Lorraine I'm using a brush.
Speaker 1:Since the hair is not attached to a root system, there's no blood flow Right, there's no sebum.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And the shampoo still bothers me a little bit because that kind of raised the cuticle and lifts the cuticles up. I would still want to use just a very mild cleanser, right, because you want to preserve and protect this beautiful wig. That was very expensive, wasn't it?
Speaker 2:Yes, it was very expensive and I also want it for a long time, exactly, but it's different than the usual process, because in the usual process, you're dealing with your scalp. In this case, I I'm really I'm dealing with the hair, and it's human hair, yeah, and it's a little bit on the coarse side, so it gets in knots very just just by moving around, just by moving around, just by sitting, if I'm leaning against something.
Speaker 1:It's real hair, you're wearing it. But that's a good sign too. You know you're not just sedentary, you're not just sitting still and you're not wearing it like a hat. You're right, you're not wearing it like a hat. You're living with it.
Speaker 2:The last thing that I needed to do to kind of liberate me was I outed myself on Facebook. I was so terrified of people seeing my bald head that I realized this was not a way to live, because my bald head is me and it's going to be with me for a while. So I took a bald selfie and I put it on Facebook. It's beautiful. I did see that, oh, you did. And I had a magnificent response, by which I mean not only was everyone nice that I expected, they were nice in the best way. That just made me feel so connected to humanity. And once I did that, I was no longer terrified. I was like people are going to see it.
Speaker 2:I came up with a look, my new look, which I'm not wearing right now, which I called the middle-aged biker fashionista look. So black t-shirts, jeans, red scarf and my bald head. So at some point I'll be ready to debut in public. But I have lots of different choices. For me, the key is I always need to feel like I have a choice. And I needed the wig because I needed that to be one of my choices. And I have a secret for any of your listeners who has a problem with wigs, and the secret sauce is something called scar tape. It's a very simple tape. It's got adhesive on one side and silicone on the other, very thin. You just put it upside down in the cap so that the silicone is the part that's touching your scalp and the itching is gone. I was having a really hard time. I was afraid that even this custom-made wig I wasn't going to be able to wear.
Speaker 2:That's good, that is good to know, that made the difference, and the other thing I think that's important to know and I think this is true for everyone, not just wig wearers is that one of the reasons it looks natural is that it's not perfect. It's a little frizzy.
Speaker 1:Functional frizz. It's functional, Functional right.
Speaker 2:Yes, functional frizz, which I like. Right, it gives me a little volume, it looks very natural, but I do not look like I just came out of a salon.
Speaker 1:It doesn't look like a glassy wig. They're the ones that I don't like. You know where they're so glassy? You know it's not real. They look more like doll hair Right.
Speaker 2:This looks so natural. One of for me is that I wanted to sort of match my hair, which was gray and it's very hard to find long gray hair. It requires a lot of hair to make a wig and there's not a lot of long gray hair available.
Speaker 1:We do a lot of big haircuts and the way I cut it off, I save the hair, I just place it beautifully and then I have people around the world that could also. That's a lot of wig hair that you could have, no, but it's a share. So it's like oh, my friend Mindy, she has very silver, light, curly hair. If anyone's cutting their hair off at any particular time, save it, send it to us, and it's only for cancer or alopecia nothing else, as hairdressers, we could be on this program now that would be so helpful to each other and helping each other.
Speaker 1:We have a donation program, but it's set for you individually.
Speaker 2:Right, so you have like a particular color and texture in mind.
Speaker 1:Yeah, unless you do want to do a play one. But then you can go to any wig store and get one, because sometimes synthetic wigs can be fine for a night.
Speaker 2:Oh yes, and one thing that I found so fascinating is I've done this deep dive. I practically have three PhDs in hair brow and lashes, which I want to talk about.
Speaker 1:I want to know exactly what you're doing.
Speaker 2:I do feel like I want to share this information because it's a very overwhelming emotionally overwhelming every single one of these. I really want this information to be useful to somebody other than just me. One thing that's fascinating about the whole synthetic hair thing is there are a lot of videos on how to make your synthetic hair look more natural, and basically every single thing they recommend is a different way of beating it up. What makes it look unnatural is that it looks so perfect, it looks so shiny. So you know they take these shears and they cut it up and they put stuff on it to dampen the shine, like the opposite of what you go to a hairstylist usually to do.
Speaker 2:And my favorite thing is what's called rooted. They refer to it as a more natural looking wig. The roots are showing, so basically you look like somebody who is dyeing their hair but hasn't gotten to the colorist in time, and so your roots are showing, and I just love this notion that well, what makes the wig look natural is doing an unnatural thing to your hair, because why would you buy a wig whose roots are showing? And in fact, it's like the biggest thing rooted wigs and they do look great because they know how to make the roots show in exactly the right way. So it looks interesting.
Speaker 1:You know, you've been your own advocate, Mindy, which is so amazing. I mean, whenever we see you, you're always so positive and you're always so inspirational. But do you have some lonely moments? I mean, you must, it's so funny.
Speaker 2:My family and friends would not recognize me in that description and I am not a positive person in the sense that often people think of positivity. Quite a downer that way, because I'm very reality based and when somebody says oh your hair will grow back and I'll be like, no, that means my medicine stopped working.
Speaker 2:That doesn't mean I'm not positive. It's just that we all have a different way of being positive and in fact it is an extremely lonely process. I've learned to try to not get too attached to good news. When I get a good scan, that's fabulous, but that's it. That was that moment and I keep moving. But especially when it's come to the hair thing was a real crossroads, because that's sort of where your insides meet your outsides and other people respond to you in a way that could make you feel worse. They don't mean to, but they could in fact be responding bad I'll put quotes around badly, because they love you and it's upsetting to them, but the upset on their face reminds you that you have cancer. And in fact I feel really good. And if the look on your face is going to remind me that I'm a sick person, I will feel like a sick person.
Speaker 2:And one thing that I've had and particularly now, because I'm so plugged into social media as a way of connecting to the world and so much of my social media is full of oh how crappy social media is, whereas for me it's actually been kind of a godsend in terms of keeping me connected. Now I do stay connected with my friends physically and see them, but especially during COVID that was really dicey sometimes. You know, one of the most helpful videos for me was a woman, kind of a model, who has all these makeup videos showing how she draws in individual eyebrow hairs. It's a lonely, difficult process and one of the things that it's done for me and one of the reasons that I'm in a good place, is that all these women who put up these videos some men, fewer men, mostly are women. A lot of them are women who don't go out of their house without makeup on. They don't go out of their house without their wig on, but they put themselves on the interweb full on bald heads so you can see their alopecia or their chemo stuff, so that they can teach you how to do what they've learned to do. And I'll never meet these women, most likely in real life, but I feel like a love for them.
Speaker 2:I start every day creating what I consider my own little artistic masterpiece, and I do paint, so my face is now my canvas and I start the day having accomplished something by creating, you know, brows and lashes that make me feel good. The reason I start the day off that way is because it was so upsetting to see my face in the mirror without brows or lashes. The beanball did not bother me nearly as much as the lack of the brows and lashes, and I do this one-minute thing. I get some manner of brow and lash on. Just that's good enough for me. I think all of these things are reasons that I'm in a good place right now, even though I'd much rather have none of this knowledge. I'd much rather be here saying ta-da, I still got to keep my hair.
Speaker 1:No, but this is really very helpful, and I think a lot of people would find it very informational and inspirational too. Oh good, I hope so. That would be very meaningful for me. Thank you, Mindy, again for your absolute sage advice. I know we could be here for hours, couldn't we? But to be continued, and I can't wait to see you soon. Same here. To see you soon, Same here. Next I love this section is called Calling All Curls. This is where curly girls from all over the world call in and ask me any question they want about curly hair. If your curls could talk.
Speaker 3:We have a caller from Miami. Hi, hi, oh, my God, I'm so excited, lorraine.
Speaker 1:I'm so looking forward to your question. What is your name?
Speaker 3:Lisa, you really changed my life. You did. I read your book. I transitioned from dying my hair to going gray and it was the best thing I've ever done. So thank you, you changed my life.
Speaker 1:I'm so happy to hear that. That's so great. And how long have you been naturally curly?
Speaker 3:My whole life, but I wasn't able to figure out how to care for my hair until I read both your books and I'm just a huge groupie fan. So thank you again, and you're a happy curly girl. Yeah, I tried to blow my hair like once or twice and it just wasn't me.
Speaker 1:Yes, good, it wasn't me at all, so tell us what is your question, lisa, so.
Speaker 3:I use all your products. I use chamfri, term 7-dermin, with or without hue. A leave-in lover terms of endowment, with or without you a leave-in lover, I like everything. I use your pick, so I do it all and my hair looks totally amazing when I wash it and I air dry the day.
Speaker 3:I do it that night, great. The next day is good after I'm sleeping on it, okay, and I live in Miami, so there is humidity. But the third day I have like it's a little bit straighter, a little bit more frizzier. So I'm not sure what I need to do, what I'm missing, what I'm not.
Speaker 1:If you can help me with that, yeah, so you're saying it's really your third day refresh, right?
Speaker 3:Yeah, the third day. I'm like, okay, should I wash it? What should I do?
Speaker 1:Yeah, maybe refreshing with literally the conditioner. So if you get terms and conditions, you put it in your palm of your hands and then you run it under the tap so it makes it into a milky consistency and then you just squeeze it into the hair. Yeah, but do as much as your hair needs. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Sometimes I might even get the chamfri put it on my hair dry, put it over the canopy and then get into the shower, okay. So when you get into the shower, try not to wet your hair. Just use the humidity, the moisture from the shower and the chamfri will settle into your hair and you'll get a new day, a new refresh. So, basically, the cuticles are just lifting up and that's what happens when you use water soluble products. Your cuticles are just doing what they want to do. They don't want to be sealed down with silicone.
Speaker 1:So because these products are sulfate free and silicone free, your cuticles are just acting like a plant, just going towards the natural water molecules in the atmosphere and all it needs is a beautiful conditioner. So conditioner see your milky conditioner like water for your body and you can't give it enough. And if you have to use more on certain days, use more. It's fine. But because it is water soluble, the atmosphere will evaporate it a little bit quicker than products that have alcohols in it and stuff like that. But your hair becomes healthier as a result of not using those Wow.
Speaker 3:Okay, that is very doable and it's really easy for me to do.
Speaker 1:I really do believe. If I was on a desert island, conditioner and water would be my thing. That's all I would want. That's all I would need. I take it with me. I get a little bottle. I put cooled boiling water, a little bit of conditioner in it. It's the end, all or be all. I'll be somewhere and I'll put a little bit on the frizz and it will just give it a drink of water. All frizzes is a car waiting to happen.
Speaker 3:Wow, I just love that. Do you have any follow-up questions? No, I mean, that's an amazing tip that you just gave me especially when I'm traveling.
Speaker 1:Yes, and you can put it in a little bottle, take it with you wherever you go. And my dear friend David used to say hydration in his pocket, yeah, that's great.
Speaker 3:That's great. Well, I just really want to thank you and I so appreciate talking to you. Oh well, thank you, lisa. Thank you Well, thank you, lisa.
Speaker 1:Thank you. Thank you to our listeners and our beautiful guests, mindy Greenstein and our call-in Lisa. Be sure to follow and share. If your Curls Could Talk wherever you get your podcasts, it will mean the world to us and it really makes a difference. If anybody would like to submit a question, please send it to info at curlyworldcom or visit us on Instagram at Curly World LLC. Thank you so much and I'll see you next time. This podcast is produced by my favorite producer, susan Kaplan. Thanks to Dan Strong, our engineer, and to Michael Schubra and Chea Ponte, and a very special thank you to Sorella May for writing and performing our original theme music.
Speaker 2:If your girls If your girls could talk.
