034 - Pit Pony Sarah Cowen - Classroom to Head of Domestic Abuse Services

This week’s episode is a powerful one. We sit down with Sarah Cowen, a former drama teacher who never planned to teach—until she fell in love with the profession. But after 18 years, she faced the realisation that her boundaries, well-being, and identity had been eroded over time.

Sarah’s story is one of deep reflection, empowerment, and transition. 

Now working as Head of Domestic Abuse Services, she shares:

✨ How she went from ‘accidental teacher’ to Mary Poppins of education, parachuting into struggling departments and making them thrive.

✨ The toxic relationship parallels between teaching and her work in domestic abuse advocacy.

✨ The exact moment she decided to leave—triggered by the now-famous Pit Pony video.

⏳ Why she once fantasised about being hospitalised for six months just to escape work.

This conversation is raw, honest, and so relatable for anyone who has ever normalised the unacceptable in teaching.

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Edited with finesse by our Podcast Super Producer, Mike Roberts of Making Digital Real

Transcript

0:02

We want to thank the sponsors of this episode who are Pure Coaching Academy. They offer a powerful live online accredited training course, including eight hours of real coaching for the duration of your course. They are committed to coaching excellence, so concentrate on not only making you a great coach, but building you a great business as well. Hello and welcome to the Pit Pony podcast with myself Sharon Cawley and me Sarah Dunwood, in which we talk to teachers from all walks of life who exited the classroom from what they thought was a job for life and thrived on the other side of teaching. Coming up in this episode, I remember bribing the caretaker and saying can I can I buy you a crate of beer if you'll open the school because the head had put an absolute you're not coming in over Easter weekend and I look back now and I'm horrified you know that I gave up my Easter weekend with my husband and my family to go and you know bribe the lovely caretaker who opened the school and turned the alarms off and he did me a great favour, but I wasn't doing myself a favour. Hello, welcome to an episode of the Pit Pony podcast. We've got a good one today, really like her, which always always happens, not that I don't always like our Pit Pony guests, so I need to roll back on that one, but a really great episode with an amazing woman Sarah Cowen, who not a traditional Pit Pony by her own definition, she accidentally fell into teaching and these are her words. I'd ended up with a bit of a Mickey Mouse degree and my mum suggested drama through PGCE. I'm not going to ask her what a degree is for fear of offending those with the same one, but I haven't heard Mickey Mouse degree for a while since they shut the pollies down. She accidentally fell into teaching and then accidentally realised she was very good at it and loved it and drama for her was that emotional safe space that she created for the kids. She worked at five schools in her 18 year career and what was brilliant about it is she describes herself as the Mary Poppins of teaching. She'd go into departments, she'd sort them out probably with her magic bag of tricks that she's got and would stay traditionally for the year 7 to 11 cycle and then move on and when I first started talking to her I said well what were the circumstances surrounding you leaving? Then she was like well I just got to, I was a bit apathetic, I wasn't getting excited about things and then as we dug in she slowly revealed that that absolutely wasn't the case and that the things that she was going through and normalising doesn't really fit under the title of apathy. But we will get into that with Sarah in a little while but for the sake of the thrival, Sarah welcome and what are you doing today? Thank you Sharon, so today I am Head of Domestic Abuse Services for the charity I work for. Brilliant and I cannot wait to talk to you about such a worthwhile position that you now hold. But let's go back, let's go back to the circumstances surrounding you leaving a job, you fell in love with a job by your own admission, you're incredibly good at. What had become your custom and practice within the teaching profession that now on reflection you realise was very, very dangerous for your mental and physical health? That is a really tough question because I've really reflected since we had our initial chat and as I said to you, you unlocked something in me that made all these memories flow and I think that word you use, normalising, you know I normalised everything over my 18-year career and it came to a point where I'd got to the best, in inverted commas, school of my life in that I felt really supported by a great SRT, fabulous colleagues, the kids were tough but once they knew you were sticking around they were loyal and you know they were absolutely there for you and would show up and love the lessons and I just had a moment of, I can't do this anymore, I just, the love had gone, there was apathy that it was another, right here I go again, plaster on that smile, get into that classroom, do the you know, no pun but the jazz hands and the show and the let's put it on and it just, it wasn't enough and ironically I think it's because I felt safe, I felt finally in a school where I was safe and again that does link to kind of what I do now in my in my day job and that I've got a lot of understanding retrospectively looking back on that with the parallels of working in a domestic abuse environment and looking back and going oh yes there was actually a lot of trauma there but I never realised so at the time I just had head down, I thought it was normal up to that point of me going well why suddenly now do I have the space to go, I don't think I want this anymore and it's because as I used that word earlier I was safe, I felt secure to do that and for the first time in a long time and up to that moment it had just, just been survival mode, what I now know and recognise and understand to be a trauma response for, for years, for years and, and I think that it's through reflection now and understanding and looking back when, when your amygdala's not in the driving seat of must survive, keep my head down, don't have a target on my back, I'm doing my best, I mean it for the kids, I mean my gosh I hear that from my clients all the time, you know what I didn't leave because of, I, I was the same except and I know we've seen that parallel on the, on the group many times in many posts with people saying what you've described is like a, an unhealthy and a toxic relationship and for me that was it and I got to the point where I was in a healthy relationship with a really healthy school, it wasn't perfect but then that's okay because perfection doesn't exist but it was very secure, I felt good, I felt I could breathe, I felt I could relax and then when I was safe and secure that I think well in fact I know that allowed the floodgates to open and me to just go right I'm going to get out of it, I'm going to just, I'm leaving and the, the Pit Pony video was the absolute catalyst, I remember exactly where I was and this is really common for people who make these life-changing decisions where you go I can tell you exactly where I was, exactly what I was doing, exactly how I was feeling because it was such an out-of-the-ordinary moment where it was on a cold rainy October afternoon after I've been at school thinking I can't be bothered to coin a phrase the kids used to say to me, miss I'm CBA, I was CBA sat there thinking I just can't, I can't do this, watch that video and I knew in that moment I actually said out loud which might make question my, my mental state at the time talking to myself but I would argue I get a sensible answer that way, I went that's it I'm leaving, at the end of this year academic year I knew come September I was not going to be there anymore and I just knew and that was for the first time in nearly two decades that I had absolutely made that decision my life is going to change and I'm standing on the edge about to take the jump and I'm jumping and I'm ready and that yeah that's the kind of not no big significant moment and yet it is, it's an oxymoron really. And can I just say it was incredibly powerful to listen to that because I don't think we'll ever know the impact that that video has had, has had on teachers, very moving to hear you say that and thank you so much. What do you think it was within that video, what do you think was that it might not just be one thing but you were a lifer by all accounts, you're in, you're in a school you're happy with, relatively happy with, does it make sense at the moment why you would suddenly watch a random video and go no, what do you think it was that's that snapped within you because to be fair the parallels are there, most people who've been in toxic relationships have the moment the light switch flicks, I had it myself within my marriage I can tell you what it was I'm not going to because I've not thought it through and you go enough, what do you think it was within that video that did that for you? I don't think there was one thing and I think you're absolutely spot on, I just think as I was watching it and I was hearing exactly what what you were what you were saying what you you know you were both saying on that powerful video I went oh my gosh they're in my head oh that that's my life um wow it's not just me um oh okay other people feel this uh who and you know it's I look back now and and knowledge is power and being in a free and safe space is so powerful because now I can say what on earth was normal about having a tree what on earth was not is I would fantasize um obviously about lottery wins and you know all the usual but I would drive to work and I had a horrendous journey it was one particular school where the irony I love the kids I've never worked with such amazing kids and that's not disrespecting any of my other kids I've ever worked with but there was a these are a special bunch and it was my worst school in terms of I I just felt there was there I'd been the golden child in the beginning when I parachuted in changed the department and then there was a target on my back because it was a case of oh you you know maybe my face doesn't fit and I know and I've heard that on the other podcast we we like to self-blame don't we that it's me at fault it's my fault my face doesn't fit and actually I think now looking back the problem was that I I would question I am I'm naturally curious I'm professionally curious I'm in my private life where I'm curious I like questions and I think that I came up against a bit of a barrier there because I would question and say why are we doing this how's this benefiting my kids I know I still will always refer to them as my kids even though none of them biologically are but um you know that how is it benefiting my kids well why am I doing this what's the impact it's having and you don't answer you don't ask those questions you just do you met or you're meant to so if you start asking questions if you start going a hand up actually in a meeting you then become I may be seen as subversive or a troublemaker or you know let's let's hush her let's quieten her and I think we see it's very indicative of the teaching profession where what do we do well the thought of fighting we and we many of us fight it's frightening it's scary it's David and Goliath and ultimately there's that in inherent thought that I'm not going to win and actually walking away is the best thing to do because it's self-protection and it was a and just to go this tree moment it was this school and I would I would drive in and I remember one particular stretch of road because I used to think wouldn't it be lovely if I had an accident that put me in hospital for six months I don't want to die I don't want to die at all I've I've been really fortunate I've never got to that point where I've seriously thought let's drive off the edge of a cliff you know I've I really haven't and I'm so thankful but let's put me in hospital for six months where I can't go I can't go to work I'm not being seen as shirking because I physically can't go to work and that's my protection and that just gives me space and time and that was so normalised and that is so worrying now and I lived with that I lived with that for years and I know Sharon at the beginning you said you know it was like love and passion for teaching I'll be honest with you I do believe I faked it I genuinely had love for my kids I'm still in touch with a lot of them now that are grown up and you know as you know I'm an ex-drama teacher and I'll often turn on Netflix and or on the TV and go oh it's one of mine one of mine and I'll have messages from them and they'll openly say it's wonderful they still call me miss even though I say please call me Sarah and for some reason they can't but they'll openly say it's because of you and I tell my casting directors you know I'm telling one of them I'm a humble brag but she's quite a main character on on the Netflix series of The Witcher at the moment and you know I went for lunch with her before filming started and I remember saying to her your life is going to change you've got no idea and she openly said to me I tell everyone oh and I went I was like it's because of my drama teacher I'm here and and I just think there's a part of me that's like I know I've changed lives as so many of us have and that is so precious and it's wonderful and there is no other feeling on this earth like it yet I wasn't willing to compromise me for that and and that's what I was just about to say so you hear all of this you've changed my life I'll always remember but at what cost to you at what cost to you what price did you have to pay to be a teacher would you say oh well I mean I I have to I have to preface what I'm about to say by saying actually now I truly am happy I've had and I'm gosh I'm probably too open and honest and you either a bit like Marmite you the love fight I'll hate it and that's fine but I'm a true believer in integrity up being up front and honest and so since leaving teaching I have managed to address my own issues I've had I've gone through trauma therapy which has been so helpful I'm incredibly reflective I've been really able to talk about my kind of thoughts and feelings but I know looking back my husband and I never had children and we're quite happy with that decision we've got a dog and it's lovely you know because the dog doesn't ask to be dropped off at a party and picks up at 11 o'clock at night and and if she did start then you know I'd probably be a very rich woman because that would be such an anomaly um however we're happy with that but I do wonder is that curiosity again did I sacrifice that I was always a when's the right time and there's never a right time in teaching and in for this family friendly career that so many and I'm using inverted commas around that and it wasn't for me I would say you know Mike I always refer them as my kids as I've done already but you know I'm doing it for my kids I'm not I'm doing it for other people's kids and perhaps there was an element that I didn't have my own children there is certainly no regret there I'm very happy I really am I've got a I've got a great life and I'm not ashamed to say that I really feel that now and and that doesn't mean I've suddenly got you know pots of money that I'm jetting off and I'm you know sipping on um champagne and and and knocking back caviar it's not it's not about that because life is rich but not money rich um and and you can't put that price on happiness and I just felt I lost myself I I put myself at the bottom of the pile I I don't know who I was I think I'm finding out who I am now since leaving and I actually quite like who I am I think I'm a probably a better person because I'm more present I I do more things I I'm there in the moment and I don't think I ever was I I remember sacrificing an Easter weekend because obviously you know exam times and if anyone who who has practical exams you know and drama exams are always early and you from about February to April you can book them in and I remember bribing the caretaker um and saying can I can I buy you a crate of beer if you'll open the school because the head had put a absolute you're not coming in over Easter weekend and I look back now and I'm horrified you know that I gave up my Easter weekend with my husband and my family to go and you know bribe the lovely caretaker opened the school and turned the alarms off and he did me a great favor but I wasn't doing myself a favor um I went in and worked with the kids and they were great kids that you know the kids are never the issue I found for me genuinely the kids were never the issue but now I look back and I think wow there were no boundaries there what they were were a lot of blurred lines where it was the expectation is almost the unsaid expectation as well there's so much that is unsaid and that's why I think I'm the other way and now very transparent my new team in my new role especially I'll be like I don't have the answers I don't have this but you know this is what I know this is this is what we're doing this is where we're going these are my thoughts and then the feedback I've already had to my team is they're like we really appreciate that it's okay if you don't have the answers because you'll tell us and it's all right we just know where we stand um and I think that was that was quite possibly a really big part of it a completely time with what you're saying because if we take that parallel to a toxic relationship because I think the parallels are becoming so clear the more time we spend in the group the more time we speak into podcast guests we use terminology now within the workplace that applies to what would have been traditionally your domestic relationship and I think it's fair to say that the common the common traits for me the things I hear people talk about but did it myself for me a truly toxic relationship erodes you over time you don't lose yourself on day two on the second date when you're half a term in and that's where it becomes completely normalized your environment and it's really really hard when you're in it you go this isn't normal because it's become normal and I've reflected whilst you've been speaking and for me what happened with with me my light switch moment in my marriage was when a friend came around to my house could see how unhappy I was could see how bad things had got and she had the argument with my ex-husband and I sat watching this argument take place knowing that that was my life it was almost like being played out in front of me and I left a couple of days later I started the plans to do that anyway that had been 15 years if you do something for that length of time behaviors expectations and your own standards become normal how far had your standards eroded with your own boundaries what were some of the things that you were accepting as normalized as you got to the end of your career oh so much so much I mean it was just I feel awful about it I think my husband just knew he was always he was never going to match up to my job and I'm so ashamed of that now he genuinely is the most important person you know I cannot fault the amount of support he's given and what he's supported me with over the years and this is the irony you know I now work in domestic abuse I and I've been with my now husband where gosh it's now it's 21 years this year you know we've been together we've been through everything and we we've had the normal ups and downs of kind of normal healthy relationships but it's it's not a toxic or unhealthy relationship and yet I would and I wouldn't tolerate that from him and he knows it um but we've got that respect and those boundaries and yet I wasn't doing that in my own job I was allowing the job to treat me like a and how an abusive partner would treat their partner and I see that because I work with people who have experienced that and that really messes with my mind still that but sometimes you can't see what's in front of you and also it is the fear I things that chime on the group for me all the time and and I and I'm quite a commenter as you can probably tell I don't like to shut up and be quiet but but the things that chime are the oh the holidays that was a big one for me it really was and and the the money because I was I'd been teaching so long I was a hard I had I did have a very small TLR because as I was kind of systematically reminded you know I wasn't as important as maybe a core hod and what I did wasn't as important and I knew my place I'm saying that very firmly with my tongue in my cheek and all of those things that kind of do erode away and you just accept it because well that's why would you go against the grain you know why would you speak out and you just have to accept those things it just becomes so all-consuming and I think it really becomes difficult to pick out those singular moments for me certainly I find it really difficult because everything everything blurred in but I would go in all my days off and I did go down to part-time mainly because in the last school I was in they were really open and honest and that there wasn't enough for kind of two full-time teachers and that wasn't it was never a case it really was never a case of us the one of you will have to drop down and this is what I've truly respected about my last school it was an open dialogue and I kind of went oh well so if I drop down to point a and they said well we don't usually have hods do that but you know we can discuss and negotiate we did and I went down to point eight and that was lovely until it wasn't and when it wasn't so what wasn't lovely was me going in on my day off to catch up with exam work because if I didn't do it it wouldn't get done and then the buck stops with me so the and I'm you know I was expensive as a UPS3 teacher a hod a very experienced teacher so I went and just gave my work away for free just you know on my day off and I would go in on my day off for parents evening because I never questioned and now I feel so silly but I never questioned that wasn't the dumb thing and nobody corrected me if I'd been a member of the group then as I am now and I'd be going I'm not coming in unless you give me you know overtime or or toil um but that that even in my in my school where I was supported and I I've got really positive things to say nobody volunteered that information you know by the way if it's your day off what are you doing coming in for a parents evening and I just think there's that expectation or you know she's so committed she's so this I didn't feel like I had a choice for nearly two decades of my life I felt like my choices were taken away and I suppose part of it was my own pressure on myself because I'm doing it for the kids I'm doing it for the kids because I can't let them down I can't let them down I want and I and I did work with some great kids and some of them came alive in my lessons because you know creative subject where you're not sat behind a desk and when you've got all those other issues going on that was a safe haven but that's not again now I know that's not enough of a reason the irony is not lost on me at the moment that I am sat looking at you Sarah's because you could not have echoed in my opinion and I'm not speaking on Lady Dunwood's behalf more of a framing of her relationship with herself within that profession Sarah Dunwood on how many levels and I know what she's going to say all the levels on how many levels can you relate to what Sarah has just said there about that self perpetuating gaslighting into lowering your own boundaries and giving everything of yourself into a job when nobody's actually asked all of it all of it even down to that kind of it's self-martyrdom as well it what and I can't I can't articulate it in terms of nobody was asking me to to do things I mean I things come up on my Facebook timeline of me sat in my car marking books whilst waiting for my son who's doing a band practice and that's not normal writing a self-evaluation form for Ofsted while sat in your car in witness on a Sunday afternoon is not normal but I thought it was because the world would stop if I didn't do that the so there's so much of a degree of self-martyrdom in in in that as well but that doesn't come from ego it comes from the the quiet boiling of the water over time that it that it becomes an expectation from other people and and and I can't quite figure out where it starts whether it starts from them or whether it started from me I don't think it's either or it's just it's daft things like the time people leave the building okay you almost have this it seeps into you you might hear an innocuous comment in the staff room one day well she's out as soon as the bell goes or alternatively yeah the caretaker's having to kick her out it's the culture of the school that you are in and you're absolutely right Sarah because you said nobody told me that wasn't right no great leader came to me and said there is a reason why we didn't open that school over Easter because I want you with your family you are putting yourself in my bad books doing that I appreciate what you're doing but I want you to come first and it's those messages I think that are not acting as the counter when let's face it the majority of people who go into teaching are empaths they want to change the world they put their people pleasers they put their own needs second by default in any walk of life but unless you've got that good leader acting as a parent in that capacity to look after you to nurture you and to say no this is a healthy boundary I'm putting in for you then we are naturally going to slide down that route where we're taking books home where we put in unnecessarily harsh deadlines on ourselves do you agree with me Sarah Dunwood yeah and I'm thinking it I say this so many times and I'm conscious of it but it's what would we do with kids I remember some really high achieving kids who who worked themselves into the into the desk in school and and out of school and I remember a couple in particular where I actually had to have conversations with them and their parents and say to their parents she needs to stop working after her homework is done she needs to she needs to have some time for herself she's working till midnight she's doing this she's working all weekend where's the people who do that for us brief interlude to dear listener a couple of questions are you a tutor or even a pit pony considering tutoring and do you fancy getting in the room with myself and Sarah Dunwood learning about the wonderful world of tuition then why not join us at the National Tutors Conference hosted by Connexus Tuition on the 29th of July 2025 it's at Chesford Grange Kenilworth the links to the tickets are in the show notes below and we will both see you on the other side completely agree and was Sarah Cowen was there anybody in your world who was acting as your critical friend apart from your husband do I'm assuming you completely ignored when he tried to help you put healthy boundaries in but were there any colleagues that you worked with who you can remember over time who acted as that critical body for not at this particular school I was talking about and as you were talking I was thinking no because this particular leader at the school where it was the bribery with the caretaker Easter this particular leader and we'd had a real tragedy where my head of department had unfortunately her cancer had returned and she passed away and it was absolutely awful it was a horrendous time in not only my career but in my personal life I was then approached by the head to basically say would you you know would you consider going for the head of department role and I said I'm really new in my career I had these worries and again I will I will air I would like to be open and transparent and she said well I you know I I'd like you to consider it we think you'd be a really good fit and all the all the you know the fluff that goes along I interviewed and by that point I thought you know do you know what I want to I want to I really I feel really strongly about this so I want to do When I didn't get the job and I asked for feedback I was told that the the male teacher that they'd given it to had better admin skills than me and that I should focus on my marriage and having children as I was getting married that August and had I not been in the midst of grieving for my recently passed head of department and I was young and that isn't an excuse but gosh I'm a perimenopausal 45 year old now enough no you nobody's going to stop me nobody's going to tell me anything that I'm not going to challenge but it was a different time and and I I wish I'd challenged that I didn't but you know that's that's okay because that was then but that was the feedback I got so that that's indicative of the type of leader I was under so when you've not got protective factors above you you create your own and my protective factor was I was the shield between the kids and my job and everything so I knew that if the kids didn't do well firstly my priority was them I want them to do well because I know how hard I know how bloody hard they worked and they did and I cared deeply about them and they were putting in as much as I was genuinely so I was going to go to the end of the earth that's not boundaried however you know I was doing it for them I was also doing it because I knew that ultimately my neck was on the line because even through the either direct or indirect well these results aren't that good and you need to justify your existence so I think I've spent nearly you know two decades justifying my existence and that's just kind of one example that again at the time when you're in it I didn't it was awful but I don't think I had any other staff member that kind of was like what what the actual hell and just to kind of tag on to that there is um a woman I respect really greatly um who also on the group a really good friend of mine um she's now moved away she's moved back to her home country Scotland through her very threes and so we we no longer work together she would at meetings get up when the time finished and she would go and I have never admired a woman more I honestly I learned a lot from her she is my hero because she would be the one who said I've got to go and pick my child up and that's important and I'm going to do it and she was she is phenomenal but she was bloody good at her job and she worked hard and she you know I've got so much respect for this woman and I think and she was my last school and and I'll be honest I think both of us are a loss to the profession undoubtedly but what I've you know what the profession has lost my gosh I've gained in my own sanity and and happiness and well-being and just how I now love life I'm not existing I'm not wading through anything I'm not waiting for the next holiday and I'm not waiting for the next holiday so I can recover and even and this this person I've just you know kind of said all my my gratitude towards and what a wonderful woman she is I'm going to name her I'm not I'm not going to give her a full name but her name's Caroline now Caroline said um to me you know that actually oh gosh she just taught me so much that she made me realize you know I can have boundaries I am able to you know just it's work it's a job and I had a very open conversation with her and I said I used to dread not dread weekends I love weekends I lived for it Friday at three o'clock the feeling of that was amazing as opposed to Monday morning half seven um awful you know night and day and I said to Caroline once gosh I resent doing anything at the weekends and she went I always looks at me and I thought she's gonna go I don't know what you mean and we had this conversation where we went yeah totally get it the weekend was rest and recharge so I would resent if anyone's I used to get nervous if anyone said oh do you want to go out for brunch do you want to go out on Saturday night no because you're stealing my time to recover and recuperate and you're stealing my rest so I can't be out late and I can't do this and this high anxiety played all the time so I lived to weekends I lived for the holidays um and now I don't have that I look back and think that's not living that is just lurching from one one unfortunate event to the other really do you know that's I've never heard anybody articulate that before ever but you are so on the money you know what I used to dread getting invites to bloody kids birthday parties I used to dread an invite and I can give you the complete perfect nightmare for me in a wacky warehouse or a soft play area slap bang in the middle of an afternoon so it cut out any kind of thing I could be doing and I would sit there resenting my time taking my kid to something he was living for watching him play with his friends being able to sit and talk to people in the same position as me which is school mums which I never got the opportunity to do at the school gate and I absolutely hated them coming through the door I hated wedding invites from my friends bloody hell it's an old out you're on a Saturday this and then we're gonna have to get a hotel room oh then we're gonna have to do this so you're absolutely spot on what my life should have been leveraging me through my financial remuneration from a job I resented doing because all I wanted to do at the weekend was either get back up to speed with the housework or do and I know it's I know it's an oxymoron that we do nothing I just want to do nothing and the one thing I used to love doing more than anything was lying on the settee in in the lounge and watching an Inspector Morse right that to me because it was slow it was easy and normally fell asleep halfway through and that was the thing that juiced me the most that if I worked everything round I could watch Inspector Morse on a Sunday afternoon not go to weddings not go watching my kid I mean heaven heaven forbid I had a hobby or anything I actually wanted to do I've never heard anybody talk like that before but you're absolutely on the money Sarah with what you've just said what do you think Lady Dunwood completely recognize it that kind of sinking feeling and and I think I countered it by going well if I've got to go and do that if I've got to go and and it has triggered a memory of a particular wacky warehouse if I've got to sit in a wacky warehouse or or I have got to be the lift and go and wait for them while they while they're off at the cinema or whatever then I'll take my laptop and I'll do some work so it's not wasted time and I think I think I balanced it I did checks and measures in my head that if I'm not using this time to rest then I need to be doing something productive with it and the only thing productive is oh it's schoolwork I completely I completely see we're all singing from the same hymn sheet and what I think has been interesting about this particular episode is your parallels and your levels of self-reflection that your new position has brought you to and I know you've probably had therapy and healing and a whole host of things to have brought you to the position you're in now but you did leave and you're now working for a charity tell us a little bit about your world now Sarah and how the the two still overlap in many respects with what you're doing but what are you up to these days what is your role as head of domestic abuse well it's a very new role so a bit of kind of backtracking just to give you the potted history when I left teaching of August sorry that's a Freudian slip that's because that had what I'd set myself in my head I actually ended up leaving in the April of 2022 I'd managed to secure a job for a different local charity for a domestic abuse charity and I went and worked there for 11 months now unfortunately that didn't pan out because it turns out that you know there are narcissists and bullies in other areas not just teaching and that was really difficult and and that yielded in response from my husband who said you need to leave because I can't see you go through this again because what he was watching was parallels from teaching now encroaching in this new job which again started brilliantly started in a wonderful manner ended very very badly now from that I was really fortunate in that I went back to my last school so in the February of 2023 I went back to my old school as a cover supervisor and you know and again not with hubris or arrogance but let's face it on paper why aren't they going to employ a fully you know qualified teacher I'd been a really successful teacher there so much so that the head when I left he actually said to me if you turned around and wanted to withdraw your resignation at any point I will accept it he didn't want me to go he didn't try to force me he didn't guilt trip me into staying but he made it known that he valued me and that was lovely and that's what I mean that was best you know best school that's why it was it worked so I did go back and I was very grateful and then I took on a maternity cover for inclusion manager so again the helping helping and then a job came up for a domestic abuse service I saw it and I was one eye on it and thinking oh no I'm where I'm meant to be back in school back in school but even when I went back and as grateful as I was and I would always be grateful to be have been allowed to go back because it's what I needed I paid my mortgage it kept a roof over my head and it was working back with wonderful colleagues and kids it just did it I just was there again thinking oh I don't think I want this this isn't me am I am I trying to force the square peg into a round hole now that I've realized though when I saw a job come up for a domestic abuse coordinator role for a newly commissioned service it piqued my interest and I was looking at the job spec and ironically I looked at the team leader role and I'm going down it and I'm going oh actually for my 11 months out in my other role yeah tick tick tick I've done that there was just one line in it that said you need to have had domestic abuse experience for four years and I went oh no so I discredited myself and oh no I haven't got that one thing every other thing on the shop on the shopping list I've got not that one thing now I won't apply so I applied for the coordinator role and then got a call from recruitment or an email saying we're inviting you to interview for the uh team leader position and then I thought oh gosh and I called them I said I'm ever sorry like what's is it my mistake again that you know oh must be me must be me and she said oh no it was just we really loved your application we would like to give you an open interview we think you'd be a really good fit for the team leader cue the meltdown of oh I'm not good enough I've my self-doubt my no not me there's somebody better than me oh not me possibly and they were really lovely and said just come along and I said oh it's a bit of a long way and I did all this self-argument of you know standing on the cliff edge and talking myself out of taking that leap of faith and I went I went for it interviewed as an open interview and then had a call saying we really loved you we'd like to offer you both positions this position this one or we'd like you for the team leader but we understand you don't want it so immediately there was a recognition and a respect of my desires they'd heard me when I said I I don't think I want the team leader but they were like we think you'd be really good but you know we're not going to force you and I went and had a conversation my husband and he just kind of he was he's really grounding and I'd never tell him because I don't want him to get an ego but you know he was really brilliant because he just said look you've been you've worked for managers who were awful you've been on that receiving end he said if you were the team leader though you can mold and you can set the team with the standards and the expectation and the and the kind of you know the vision that you've got and I and I know that I am not a horrible person I know that I'm not a bully I know that I listen to people I respect them and it was that that I went yeah what what am I doubting actually and it was just my self-confidence and self-belief so that started in December 23 and the service went live and opened on the 2nd of January 24. So new service, accounting commissioned, worked really hard, used my knowledge of schools to make partnership links which were very gratefully received, went in and kind of we teach family support workers and school staff, I made links with IFST so intensive family support teams, just really networked, worked hard, really great service and then in December of last year so my boss went oh by the way I'm leaving and we all went oh no because nobody likes change and then she said yeah so you know have you thought about applying for my role and after I stopped laughing I went no. The my big senior boss scheduled a meeting and said oh have you got time for a quick catch-up and immediately I was like oh am I going to get a telling off because I did send an email that was a little bit forceful to somebody in the council who hadn't been doing their job properly and I and I immediately thought I'm getting a telling off and the first thing she said to me was why haven't you applied for the job I just want to know and I and had a really open chat and I said well I you know gave my reasons I don't think this should well okay that's fine um you were recommended by several people which was just again that whole who me like what double take because that's that's very opposite to the um narrative uh often I felt I was reminded that I was not good enough overtly or um you know it was it was either implicit or it was over you know oh I must do better must try harder in the teaching world I'm not all not quite there but this was totally different this was a well yeah clearly you're good enough to do it so I am denied and then I um ironically I shared the job in the group because I truly believe there was somebody else out there who's better than me well of course there would be so somebody else is going to be better and when I interviewed and they interviewed externals as well um and and I think when I got the job and the feedback I've got from the teams is that we're so glad it's you because you've been through it like you understand the systems you know the job you're not going to ask us to do something that is not realistic and that was their worry of somebody coming in and not knowing and so I started that officially on the 13th of January this year and it has been a baptism of fire but you know it's just I think all of my inverted comma soft skills which are I would say the best skills um that we've got as teachers um have just served me so well I've already made links I'm now in charge of three teams who cover three different geographic geographical areas so I need to I need to make those relationships with commissioning services I need to make the relationships with other resources in the areas and and actually that's I think what my strength is um you know drama teacher ex-drama teacher I never although ironically I was always behind the scenes my background is in directing so I don't I'm not one for limelight I don't want to be on the stage doing it I just want to be there pushing other people and going go and you can do it and I think that's that's where I am now um the teaching part of helping um it's still there I've done a lot of direct client work um and I think the listening skills as well of teachers a lot of the clients I've worked with up to this point have needed a sounding board they've needed a safe space they've needed somebody to hold space for them and I will openly say to them I'm not a counsellor I'm not a trained counsellor and actually what I've realized is that's not what they need they need somebody who is kind of a professional friend who can hear what they're saying who doesn't judge them who can say a bit of reframing um often my clients will quote back to me and say well you know that thing you said to me um and I go oh god oh yeah no I did say it but wow that's I didn't realize what an impact it had on you um techniques I used with kids I had one client who really struggled to organize her thoughts so you know we talked about whiteboards and we talked about the top five you know what your top five priority take things do a brain dump number them one to ten what number can you cope with right it's one to ten everything else push it back if you need to and she says to me I went and bought my whiteboard Sarah I did this and and actually it's changed the way she's been able to structure her thinking and I just think well I know actually had I not been a teacher had I not worked with a wide range of individuals who needed adaptations who just couldn't digest because well this is the way you need to learn it I don't think I'd be as good as I am at my job and I and again I say that without ego I say that with security I know I'm good at what I do and that is and that is a feeling that I don't think I ever truly had or I had it but I didn't don't think I believed it whilst in education whereas now I'm like no do you know what I I can do this so that that possibly is from leaving it could be perimenopause it could be anything I it could be a combination but it's a really nice place to be Hello loyal listeners I'm going to go full on Charles Dickens in this buy us a coffee slot and as Oliver twist we're going to ask for a little bit more any pennies you can donate to keep our podcast funded would be greatly appreciated see the buy us a coffee link in the episode notes thank you I'm a gog Sarah I've got to remind myself that I've got to ask questions I know I'm I'm sat here listening like I'm listening to an episode I am and I've just written how empowered are you I'm like I honestly thought oh I'll just pause this while I go and put the kettle on and listen to it when I come back Jesus so on that empowered note everything you've just said there were just fantastic so you know what I'm going to ask you don't you you know I'm going to ask you about your sliding doors moment and when when I have a pre-recorded chat with the guests they agonize for hours so what's your sliding doors moment Sarah well again I have agonized for hours and and I kind of was thinking of oh the really deep things and actually I'd like to share one from this weekend because again I've really reflected since we've chatted and and I think I've missed a lot of them I think I've had so many that I but I didn't necessarily take a moment but this weekend um was a real sliding doors moment and one I'm I'm really pleased that happened um I just messaged my sister on Friday night to see how she is because she's recently had a baby and she's all sorts of trouble where he's been diagnosed with an allergy to cow's milk and you know it's quite quite a no sleep zone and um she's also got a six-year-old so my niece and I just said well do you want me to have my niece for the weekend me and my husband you know she said no I don't want to impose and I said oh just send her over so my niece my husband went to pick my niece up quite late or about nine o'clock on Friday night as a last minute really last minute I'd planned to binge watch the traitors this weekend and stay in my pyjamas and possibly have a cheeky glass of something well how that changed because my niece turned up Saturday um she's only six and so you know she's got to be entertained I took her out and we went and had them a breakfast and I bought her breakfast and I took her to a charity shop and she was allowed to choose something and we did her spellings obviously once a teacher always a teacher we did all those lovely things and then in the evening we watched some pro you know programs that she wanted to watch some kiddie films she stayed over again um and she and then it was dropped home on the Sunday afternoon and and I know and I've had the wonderful a wonderful weekend and as she was going she said see you next time bye I love you Auntie Sarah and it just melted my heart um I love her dearly and she is my world and I know for a fact for a fact if I was still teaching I would have missed all of that because I would have had the panic of must rest my weekend I must protect it even if I'm sat doing nothing I need to have a trauma recovery moment and my gosh I would have missed out I've had the best weekend ever and and I'm so grateful and here's to many more because I'm now saying yes um when when I was a teacher I was saying no and that's not the case wow it's ironic that you've just painted what would have been the worst weekend of plans and now the absolute golden oh that's brilliant do you know what I've loved every single minute of the time we've spent with you you've been an absolute belter there's no two ways about it you've been captivating fascinating and inspiring which is all we ever ask for you've been honest you've been reflective and I do apologise for part dying halfway through it with coughs and colds and that kind of thing please forgive me but Sarah Cowen on behalf of myself and Sarah Dunwood thank you so much for your time brilliant episode and thank you friend thank you thank you hello friend welcome back um I'm going to try and get through this epilogue without coughing and spluttering and apologies for my coughs during that podcast I loved that and I'll tell you why I enjoyed it because it wasn't critical incidents it wasn't just this happened in the last six months Sarah reflected over her career her 18 year long career and how she had loft herself in terms of boundaries in terms of expectations in terms of who she was and I think many of our listeners will relate to that to be perfectly honest what did you think of it completely completely recognized what she was describing in in terms of who I was and who I became and I think I've talked about this previously like maybe on a podcast maybe just in one of our phone calls I don't know where it you don't realize you've lost your sense of self until you've come out of the other side of something and Sarah alluded to something about it when she came out when she had space to breathe that's when she realized how nuts it had got and I think that's that's really true when you're in crisis when you've and you don't necessarily realize you're in crisis when you're through the other side of something it's like grief isn't it that when you come through the other side of something it's only when you feel like you're past it and you breathe out and and and let it go that then actually the enormity of it can hit you and it and it actually can be quite upsetting and for me I I've always said my identity was so tied up in the in the teacher and senior leader that I was I was that person who we had lettings at our school that that kept the school open until 10 o'clock Monday through Thursday of an evening and there were some nights when when James was much older where I didn't leave that building until nine o'clock in the evening because so completely recognized myself in what she was talking about and this really caused me to reflect actually in the in the 10-minute space that we've we've had of who drove that was that me or was that was that them yeah I think it's both but I don't think it's an either or it is really really strange to reflect upon a period of your life where you have lost who you should be who you were and sometimes I compare who I was when when I went in at the age of 21 and who I was when I came out at 41 and obviously life happens to you and you change well that 21 year old would not have put up with half of what was happening to her personally and professionally so it's normal it is normal to to lose yourself your priorities change your pressures change particularly if you've got a parent you're a parent you're a homeowner you've got bills to pay you've got a whole different you're a different person when I was starting teaching at 21 I was living with my mum and dad my biggest priority was what I was going to wear it's the level of self-justification that you that you realize that you've given to yourself over years and years and years and years of well I have to do this now and this needs to be done now and I need to do it this way and and and all of that sort of stuff and it's really easy with hindsight to look at it and go I wouldn't do that now but even you and I have had a conversation very recently about the fact that it's only in the last 12 months that I've stopped putting ridiculous self-imposed death lines on myself for things that I don't because that's still there we champion self-gaslighting this constant dialogue in our heads justifying this beating ourselves up about that our inner self-talk when you are in that kind of culture and environment it's scary scary yeah completely completely and it's I think what what struck me with Sarah is the fact that she talked about the work that she's done that she's had the therapy and and and and proper counseling and is now very aware so and and I think one of the challenges of becoming self-aware is that when you do become self-aware you start then reflecting back over things that that you have done that you've lived that you've experienced and you start questioning them through a different lens and you can almost spiral into beating yourself up over something that you didn't know that was happening back then because you weren't self-aware and so you have to do some serious work on going well that's how it was those were the circumstances I cannot change that I can change how I react and respond in the future if something like that happens again because otherwise you could be in a perpetual oh yeah self-flagellation and for me I I just slightly changed the wording that you used it's not how it was it's who I was that was who I was back then and I I'm in touch with myself at different ages in my life when I said to you what would the 21 year old version of me do what did the 41 year old do what did the 52 do you know my best version of myself my 80 year old version of myself I turn to her I turn to my 80 year old version of myself all the time interesting I do something similar but it's not the the future self version of me it's my dear departed grandma and I and I I think I posted something on Facebook there's there's a glorious photo of my of my Nana and Grandad coming off a plane in Malta I think but it looks dad glam it looks rat pack kind of they were all dolled up because you used to do that in the 60s I believe but one of the things that I really valued once I went into adulthood was was nipping over to my Nana and Grandads and they they said it as it was you you'd talk to them and they would they would somewhat inappropriately at times because of the the generation but they said it as they was as it was and I do sometimes have an an imagined conversation with with grandma or granddad or I'll go to Crosby beach and sit at the Iron Men and and have the conversation with with in my head with one of them because that's that's very closely attached to them and and I think you're right that wisdom of somebody else whether it's real or imagined is actually a good to me the 80 year old version of myself has got limited time left she's got a significantly limited time left a working life is done kids are all right the pressures in this perceived version I have of myself and I really question what I'm going through now would she really give this any head space would she put up with it would she turn around and say what on earth are you losing sleep over that for you idiot because I have I think they say 85% of the things we worry about never comes to fruition anyway and I spend a lot of time in her head space this is drivel this is low level nonsense somebody said this about you somebody's asking you to do this and you're not happy or apologetically no or unapologetically yes and it and it goes back doesn't it we've mentioned this previously Mel Robbins talks about let them and and and the the power that we allow people to hold over us who are not even in our space and or are in our space and we're we don't know the conversations we don't know but but it's it's that old thing isn't it your opinion of me isn't of my concern it shouldn't be but it's it's very easy to say that but it's difficult to live it but when you're in that version of yourself that Sarah talked about and and we always have this expression in our house as soon as somebody says other people well what will other people think who are these other people when you're in that school and you have to stay late or you have to get your books marked or what will other people think of me fully who exactly are these other people and if you sit with it that's where you self gaslight yourself because the other people is you you're the other person what you are really saying is what will I think of myself if I leave early what will I think of myself if I don't get these books marked we create this sense of self-judgment with these imaginary people who are standing in judgment of us and it's ourselves and if I'm okay with leaving school at 10 past three that's the that's the real question I need to ask myself how will this be perceived by who by me I'm all right with it but when you're in the mixer and you are frightened or it's the boiled frog scenarios happened you can't you haven't got the clarity to do that because nine times out of ten what it was like with me when I was that version I was that time poor that exhaustion she talked about at the weekend my to-do list never even got done I used to have a to-do list to sort my to-do list out I didn't have time to self-reflect and I think that's why our pit ponies are able to be so articulate and so on the money about where they're at now because they've had time all I needed to do when I was in that state was make it till 10 past three make it till bedtime for the do this I was running at a million miles an hour and you know what if I was not where I'm sat now on this podcast do you know what I'd be saying to you if me and you were in school you'd be going you need to listen to that pit pony podcast Sharon do you know what my response would have been I haven't got time I haven't got time to listen to those two rattling on and all of those people who've made it on the other side that put this podcast will trigger me I think I think time's a really interesting concept as well because we see this asked on the group you're like when when does it when does the guilt stop when does this stop when do the nightmares stop when do the dreams stop and I think it's really important particularly for anybody who's listening to this who isn't out and who is considering coming out that that it does take time on the other side you might you might be busy you might get yourself another job you might do multiple income streams like I did and and and tout your skills around for a variety different things but fundamentally there needs to be time to think to reflect to move through it to let go of the stuff that's happened previously because otherwise you'll end up repeating it again and again and so I think it's important for anybody who's listening who who is looking at coming out that that the coming out of the school you you're not immediately I can't click my fingers but it but you're not immediately going to magically be fixed in in that moment in that day it's going to take months it's like anything that's massive do you does your grief stop the day after the funeral do you heal the minute you signed your divorce papers do you heal the minute you've done your last day in a school it's life and I think the older we get we are in one of the best generations of our time with social media it's our biggest curse and our greatest blessing we can learn so much about our mental health our self-awareness just from Instagram scrolling through Reels and TikTok if you get your who your followings right there are pockets of brilliance coming into your phone on a nightly basis there are books that I have read that have changed my life that weren't written when I was 21 we didn't have the emotional literacy and understanding of how our brains work we're in a golden era in many respects about what's out there and if you're listening to our podcast and there is a language that's used all the way through we're talking about toxicity gaslighting boiling the frog we're talking about trauma problems all of these things if this language is alien to you and you think trauma is what happens if you stand on a landmine and that's PTSD and you only get it in the army no one of the things you can be doing if you are in the classroom now is stepping into this world of self-awareness of how our mind works and there is a wealth of stuff out there you've just mentioned Mel Robbins we talk about the chimp paradox all the time there are so many different things you can be doing whilst you're in there because had I have had that stuff available to me I think it might have been a very very different story and if you have it available to you in the classroom that could be empowerment from within not how empowered Sarah Cowen felt out of it because had she have had that stuff while she was in there because I'll tell you now that woman loved teaching she loved those kids she's getting as much joy in her position now as a domestic abuse but I wonder had she have had the level of self-discovery within where her path would have taken her and I do think it's possible I do think it's possible and I think it's possible for people to be in toxic relationships but what they tend to do is when they have that self-discovery they leave so I think it was a good episode I think it was a very interesting one it was a walk through on somebody who'd really had some self-discovery reflection and realization like a lot of our pit ponies do she was a great guest she was really her energy was fantastic to be around I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did Sarah I did I I forgot we were recording get points I genuinely forgot we were recording I was just listening completely engrossed and then we'd be like oh I'm hoping Sharon's going to ask a question here yeah I'd look at us both who was still on mute and she'd been talking for 15 minutes she was like that I think she needed a glass of water she dried up uh no it was a belting episode really enjoyed it and Sarah just thanks to our listeners for staying loyal tuning in spreading the word and we'll see you on the next episode of the Bit Pony podcast see you on the other side pal thank you so much for staying with us throughout another great episode and on behalf of myself Sarah Dunwood and all at the production team we appreciate your continued support if you wish to contact me directly for a support session or a clarity call for your next steps please find my link in the comments below see you soon