036 - Pit Pony Hollie Jones - Classroom to Neurodivergent Educator - Part 1

In this powerful two-part episode, we sit down with Hollie Jones, a former teacher turned neurodiversity practitioner, whose journey out of the classroom is one of resilience, advocacy, and hard-won justice.

Hollie always believed teaching was her lifelong career - until she faced systemic barriers, discrimination, and a lack of understanding about neurodivergent needs in the workplace. What started as a request for simple, reasonable adjustments quickly spiralled into a legal battle for her rights.

In this first part of her story, Hollie opens up about:

• The reality of masking in education and the impact of undiagnosed ADHD.
• The subtle and overt ways workplace discrimination manifests.
• The breaking point that forced her to step away from the profession she loved.

Hollie's journey is one about standing up, speaking out, and setting a precedent for others facing similar challenges.

Follow us on Facebook

Voice Message Us

Buy Us a Coffee ☕️

Loving the Pit Pony Podcast?  We’d be so grateful for your support! We’ve set up a Buy Me a Coffee page where you can make a small donation to help keep the podcast running.

Contribute to the 'Silenced by Support' Campaign

If you've been affected by any of the issues raised in our podcast there are organisations who can help:

• Education Support
• The Samaritans
• Mind
• Andy's Man Club

Join Us:

• Subscribe to the Pit Pony Podcast 
• Sign up to our mailing list here: http://eepurl.com/i1L5ck

Thanks for listening 🙏

Edited with finesse by our Podcast Super Producer, Mike Roberts of Making Digital Real

Transcript

Hello and welcome to the Pip Pony podcast with myself Sharon Cawley and me Sarah Dunwood in which we talk to teachers from all walks of life who exited the classroom from what they thought was a job for life and thrived on the other side of teaching. Coming up in this episode, Hello and welcome to an episode of the Pip Pony podcast with Hollie Jones, who Sarah and I know really really well. We've known her for years, she's been a true friend, involved with Connexus, so we go back pre-Covid. 

So well thought of by myself and Sarah and so very grateful for her joining us today. Now, Hollie, teaching was not the first plan with Hollie because at careers day it was a big no at university for teaching but she's one of those Pip Ponies who worked her way in through the back door, working initially in a children's nursery and then liked it so applied for a B.Ed in the August with her first lecture being in the September but we will come on to that nature of Hollie's brain. Qualified in 2008 as a primary school teacher and did a tour of duty of nine schools, including four in Hong Kong over a three-year period, then Australia for a year, then on relocating to England she goes back into mainstream primary in a school and something happened that made Hollie decide that she was not returning to the classroom as a teacher ever again. 

So welcome Hollie Jones and can you tell us what is it you do now? So now I work for the local council's educational psychology service as a neurodiversity practitioner, so going round schools and helping them adapt the environments for children mainly with autism ADHD but we're going to branch out into other other sort of types of neurodivergence as well and trying to start my own business advocating for neurodivergent educators, staff, you know support staff and all that just to make sure that they're looked after as well. Perfect thank you Hollie. So as we do with all of our guests we want to take you back to that period of time where you were exiting, the circumstances under where you were exiting, what was happening in that school at that time. 

Okay well over to you Hollie. It's so hard to bring it back to mind because my life is so different now and it's not even been that long so officially my last sort of contract as a teacher ended in January 2024, I think what year it is now, but my last day in the classroom was in October 23 because I ended up signed off so the last day, it's difficult to say the last day really because I had a last day teaching on the Friday and then I'd gone in on the Monday but left before the children even came in so it's difficult to know which one is my last day. What was the build-up surrounding that decision to go Hollie, what had happened since you started at that school? I'd worked at that school before I moved abroad and then that was the first school I went to, well yeah I suppose when I moved back from abroad it was the first school I went to, I then moved around a couple of other different schools on temporary contracts and then ended up back at this one, a sort of change of leadership and everything and I'd already been, I'd already been waiting for an ADHD assessment for probably about 18 months when I started the job, I was always very open about it and then in the June of my first year there, so you're talking like six months in, I got a phone call to say we've actually got a cancellation for an ADHD assessment next week do you want it and so obviously I was like yes please because so it was getting on for two years then that I've been waiting so had to take some time off, do the appointment and then got back in the next day and said yeah I'm diagnosed so they're going to start me on medication and that's when everything changed.

The attitude of some people around me, I mean you're always going to get that anyway with neurodivergence of people saying oh everyone's a little bit autistic, everyone's a little bit ADHD which isn't true but it was the medication I think that made me realise how overwhelming my environment was because the medication for ADHD, well the medication I take not for everybody but adults particularly, it's an amphetamine because ADHD is a really, it's not a great name for it there's no problem paying attention for someone who has ADHD, you could pay attention, you can hyper focus on something for hours and hours and hours and hours and hours without going for a wee, having a drink, having anything to eat and it's more about dopamine deficiency so it's more about lower levels of dopamine in your brain so your brain is constantly trying to find stimulation, constantly trying to find something to help you focus so I take an amphetamine in the morning you know at the pharmacy, they have to go and get it out of the controlled drugs cupboard and that to stimulate my brain so that I can then focus on one thing at a time from the beginning to completion so it kind of seems that as a teacher you're spinning plates all the time and you're always getting a little bit of that done, a little bit of that done, a little bit of behaviour, a lens itself to ADHD but to actually get anything completed and to feel like you're actually focusing on something, the medication really helps so once I was on the medication in the classroom it was like end of June that I was taking it, it was kind of like I had like quite a small class at that point so we were kind of having a laugh, it was year five so there's no pressure or you know like handover transition or anything so had a really really nice time but it was when I went back in the September with a new class they'd already upped my medication and it was a completely different sensory experience to what I was used to so it was almost like I had to teach or I had to learn how to teach with my new brain and it was way more difficult than I thought it was going to be so if you're thinking you're used to spinning plates and you know dashing around you know what it's like and then suddenly your brain is saying right start this, get it finished and then we'll move on and it's just not something I was used to so it was really really helpful in terms of being a mum, getting things done, you know sorting out the house and that sort of thing and I felt like I was a lot more efficient at work but I could do one thing at a time and when I was doing that one thing I needed to finish it which is just not me at all so what was stopping me from doing that was the environment around me, I found it really really overwhelming and I think before that I was living on the teetering of anxiety all the time so I was overwhelmed but it was almost helping me to keep going whereas then as soon as you took that kind of like scatterbrain-ness away it was like actually this environment's really overstimulated for me and I need to do something about this and it's when I asked for that that it just showed that it wasn't understood and it was like I was asking for the world and it just became a place where I wasn't mentally safe to be, it wasn't a psychologically safe place to be for me anymore and I couldn't go in. Wow and I mean can I just say that's probably given so much clarity in many respects to moving through how you've operated before to once you are taking medication because I think in some respects there must have been like a tritation period of settling in and getting used to this but help qualify for me what were some of the reasonable adjustments you were asking for in the first instance? So the main things for was in general the the lighting the strip lights in the classroom and the screens so even now rather than having like a blue light I prefer a yellow light otherwise I'll get headaches or it almost makes me feel a little bit dizzy so I was like I need some kind of I'd not expect you to change the lights but I need some kind of cover and I'd found all these different ways that you could do it for like hardly any money and I need covers for the screens and I need to I need to be able to change the interactive whiteboard screen to it to a different colour that was the sort of ongoing bit and then there was a Friday morning pinch point where there was a lot of things that needed doing at the same time and often for a neurodivergent brain you know everybody's different but for me if that job needs doing on a Friday morning my brain cannot conceive that maybe I should do that on a Thursday before I leave so whenever I would leave you know I've got to get the children I've got to get this I've got to nip to there I've got a cup of tea and all that so on Thursday I'm in Thursday mode I get in on Friday I'm doing the Friday jobs then so you've got to choose there were all these different admin tasks and what I wanted was a place to go that was quiet and the lighting was right while the TA the children were working independently anyway while the TA kind of oversaw the guided reading that they were doing and I could just go just for half an hour and get all this stuff done bing bang bosh whereas when I was the classroom it was so overwhelming that it was taking me ages and I knew I could do it I just need to do that somewhere else that's all I asked for and I think it's important to really drill into this because before we talk about reasonable adjustments that kind of thing let me just ask what it was because I know the answer to this my friend and I really want you to walk through what it was you had to go out of this classroom and do what was this admin task so on a Friday morning as with you know schools everywhere there's like a celebration assembly so that would normally be at about 10 or whatever so the expectation was that the children would be doing a guided read that was bible based because it it was a catholic school and it was for them to do independently so they've got their reading they've got the questions on the board and they know exactly what they need to do if they finish and that would give me room to then do those tasks without you know without much supervision or teaching or anything which is you know that's absolutely fine obviously having new year fives in that you almost have to train them a little bit to do that and figure things out for themselves and that's all fine and they were they weren't the easiest class but they were a beautiful lovely fizzy class and we all got on really well but on a morning I was expected to um I'd have written it down so take the register and do the lunches of what they were having um that's fine that was every morning um I'd have to gather up all of the reading journals in and write a comment on it check if they'd read five times check if a parent had signed it if they had they got a green card so to write them down for a green card um I'd have to give them a raffle ticket that went in the little raffle ticket box to be drawn out later for the reading raffle and stick one in their book we had a cafe card so every time they read five times they would um be able to go into the raffle uh they'd be able to go to the cafe and have a hot chocolate and read and that and then I had to have a look at all the green cards of everyone who had green cards over the week add them all up if they'd got to a certain point like um you know gold bronze or whatever I had to go and get a certificate for them fill that out I had to choose two children for the good new certificates and then I would have to um write down on on our sort of communication system with parents write a list of those children who had read five times that week who were in the raffle and then say you know thank you for your support with reading and that send that and all the while the children are in the classroom they're working as independently as they're able to but you know it's difficult it's just like he's looking at me and all that sort of doing that I had a TA but she was having to do a dyslexia screening with a child so she was off doing that and I just and then I've got the sort of executive head coming and saying have you got your certificates yet have you got your certificates and I was always you will get when they are done I will send a child down with them you know you don't need them until you're literally about to read it out so you don't need to come and keep doing this so there was all that for 31 children because one of them would go over to the hub so it's 31 children and while trying to maintain behavior management and all that kind of stuff so I was finding it really overwhelming so you're talking went back at the beginning of September this was end of September so I'd probably done this was probably about four Fridays I'd done and I thought okay something needs to change about this I'm not going to keep doing this every Friday morning and so there was one day where there was that and then you know the children came in after break and we did maths and everything but I knew that I was having my PPA that afternoon we were allowed to go home for PPA and I knew I was going to have to get home and just completely decompress de-escalate because it was just so overwhelming so normally I'd kind of go at lunch and say like I'm going I'm going to have my PPA at home but something had happened a couple of the children were kind of butting heads and I knew that it was going to be a very fizzy lunchtime so I thought I'm going to hang around and it was as I predicted so I spent my lunchtime kind of coaching one of them through like you know his kind of like anger management sort of stuff and having a word with the other child all the while on the edge of tears myself just thinking I don't know how much longer I can do this and so when all that was sorted I grabbed my stuff and I said I'm going and I think maybe the head had said oh can I just grab your foot and I said I just really need to leave and so I left signed out made sure the admin staff knew got home and thought right I need to let them know what's going on um when I'd gone back in the September I'd already contacted Access to Work because my sister is a treasure trove of information about this stuff so she said you know contact Access to Work because any any adjustments that you need on top of what your employer can provide they can pay for and she was diagnosed autistic and so she'd got um a few um a few bits above I said bits above she'd done pretty well out of Access to Work so I'd already contacted them because I thought well it takes about 12 weeks and to even look at your form so I may as well get it in now and it doesn't have to go through the employer or occupational health you just do it yourself so in this email I'd got home and I'd said look I'm finding Friday morning's really really overwhelming I've already contacted Access to Work about changes that can be made for my ADHD but in the meantime I need something to change I need something and I said so what I'm going to do is I'm going to take the weekend to think about it I'm going to um do next week and just figure out what exactly it is that's making me feel like this and I had an email back from the executive head saying thank you so much for your email um yeah of course we want to support you so um yeah I'll I'll when I'm in next week we'll we'll have a chat about it I was quite happy with that so I spent that weekend kind of thinking right think about mental health spend time with the family in nature go for walks you know have some nice food um went in on the Monday thinking right you know you know your feelings are valid you're you're not making this up you know that you're entitled to help so let's get in and let's just remember who the hell we are so went in on the Monday morning probably about half past seven hadn't even uh poured a coffee and the head came in and said can I just grab you for two minutes and I was like yep sure no worries and he asked me about the email and he hadn't replied to the email but he said uh the executive head's gonna want to talk to you about this when he's in tomorrow and I was like yeah yeah I know that's fine and it was it started off as almost like uh oh yeah yeah I sent the email yeah that's okay and and it slowly turned into this kind of um well why have you contacted access to work and like what what is it that you need changing well why do you get that change and nobody and nobody else does and I was just thinking what is I've literally just walked in like you know that last time gosh you know that last time I was in here I was overwhelmed because I emailed you so why now when I'm coming in on a Monday morning are you doing this to me and it was almost like the attitude about being diagnosed was always when I'd first gone in and said I was diagnosed and I said so I'll probably need some adjustments and they said well well the the head said well you know that's going to go on your record we're going to have to get occupational health involved and I was like yeah like that's okay I don't mind I've got nothing to be ashamed of like um and it was also it's going to go on your record like what like that's nothing I'm not scared of that like that's who I as could could you imagine could you imagine Hollie yeah so so you've got a disability and you're telling me now we need to make um adjustments so you're going to need a ramp into your room because you're a wheelchair user I'm gonna you know that's gonna have to go on your record don't you yeah just like why would it was the connotations of that were so negative and I remember just going I've got nothing to be ashamed of I don't mind but you also explained it beautifully to him which was actually this doesn't make me special this brings me up to the level playing field of everybody else and this is this is the thing about so when I started to on that Monday morning when I started saying off the top of my head it's the lights it's the screens and it's the Friday morning the the first thing that he came back with was right well I need you to give me some more detail because it's not as easy as that I've got to make sure there's parity across all the staff and I was like reasonable adjustments isn't about parity for everyone it's about giving me parity with everybody else by making accommodations so that I am equal with everybody else because I can't access everything the same way as they can so it was all and then and then he would say well what's access to work and I was thinking well you're my manager and I sent that email on Friday so you could have just googled it over the weekend or even Monday morning you could have just googled it and known what it was so then I had to explain to him what access to work was um and then he asked me if it was a behavior issue and I said well it's not a behavior issue but they're obviously you know they're not an easy class and after I'd sort of listed all this stuff off so he would say right so it's the lights and I was saying it's not just the lights and then he would say right so it's the screens I would say no it's not just and it was like um there's nothing I can hang my hat on and tell you it's this one thing so I said it's a combination of things I kept having to say to him no it's not just that it's a combination of things. Brief interlude dear listener a couple of questions are you a tutor or even a pit pony considering tutoring and do you fancy getting in the room with myself and Sarah Dunwood learning about the wonderful world of tuition then why not join us at the National Tutors Conference hosted by Conexus Tuition on the 29th of July 2025 it's at Chesford Grange Kenilworth links to the tickets are in the show notes below and we will both see you on the other side. 

And where was this conversation taking place? In his office in the office okay so he brought you into the head he brought you into the office but it really doesn't seem as though this is a framing conversation that is coming from a supportive point of view you've given some quick wins there Hollie you have given some basic quick wins lighting screens and accommodation on a Friday morning that is a really quick win in the first instance it's not like you've come in with anything unreasonable because they were by definition reasonable adjustments yeah so he then throws into the mixer behavior of your class yeah which had always been a bit of a thing because I mean it sounds horrible to say but there's if there's if there's a difficult class you know when they're moving through the school they're coming to you and it's all there's always one cohort in the school and it's going to happen forever and ever it's always going to be the way and it was it was my turn with them but I'd made a lot of effort with the class I'm always really open about my ADHD I was open with parents you know there was a boy in that class of ADHD I went out on the playground spent some time with his mum and I always I've always found that my way of behavior management is never popular with SLT so I don't shout it takes a lot like if I'm gonna shout it's more of a very raised voice and because I'll control my voice as soon as it rises I don't need to shout because you know um and you know I was that teacher it's just like well well I heard her I heard her voice go high and and she she never gets angry but it was almost like I wanted the classroom to be a safe space where we felt like a team so I'd be able to say okay so you know you've gone and done this at break time I'm going to come outside I want I want you to talk to me about I want you to talk to me about where that came from where that behavior came from why are you feeling like that and then let's get the other child in like what's going on and almost like that restorative kind of practice of and and and solutions focused and not because behavior is communication there's a need behind whatever's happening so I was always trying to do it like that and I'd said to um the head I'd said give me a term with them no I'd no I said give me half a term doing it my way and then if that's not worked if you think I'm not doing a very good job I'll do it your way um there was a sort of behavior policy in place where you'd get sort of like you were on green if you if there was sort of if you did some good you got a green card um and then there'd be red cards or yellow cards and if you got a yellow card for break time that day or the day after if it was after break time you would have to put on a high vis vest at break time and walk the perimeter of the playground because the head thought well they're still outside they're still getting movement but they can't join in with anything and then the teacher who was on duty their job would be to have the red book and to be checking in with the children saying why you're here what you're going to change about next time and try and have those conversations and if you got a red card you would do that for break and lunch so you'd do that for two different breaks and I hated that setup so I never gave out red cards it was just I just couldn't bear the thought of the child doing that so I would try and get behind the behavior and what happened and say you know and I would even say to my class I don't give out red cards but what I do expect is a conversation for you to be honest with me and so it was always a little bit of a a bit of a rub with SLT that they didn't think I was sort using the right sanctions but it's it's proven that behavior policies typical behavior policies don't work with neurodivergent children because their behavior is a different kind of communication they're communicating a need a sensory need that's not been met and and often they're too young to know what that need is and so it's going to come out in an unexpected way so for example gorgeous little boy um honestly I've made friends with his mom since I've left like he's he's just he's just gorge and so he would have I would let him have little adjustments like you know he could doodle while I was doing the teaching or while we were reading the class text as long as he was listening so I'd be reading and I'd say you know boy's name what did I just read and he'd be able to parrot it back to me so he was listening and I could check that he was listening but then you get the uh head teacher or the executive head teacher come in why you why are you drawing you should be listening and I'd be like he is listening this is how he listens and it was it was just this atmosphere all the time that I was doing something wrong when really my class and me were just trying to understand each other and understand how each other ticks and it takes a while it takes a while for for that to happen for them to trust you and you to trust them and to establish those boundaries so I was constantly being told you've got to get them under the thumb you've got to give out a few red cards you've got to shout a little bit and I was always saying I'm not doing that I've told you give me half a term of doing it my way and I was getting feedback from parents just like oh they're really happy you know they're happy to come into school like um they skip into school now and they didn't before so I was getting really lovely feedback and to me the children are happy the parents are happy then I'm doing it right however that looks to management I'm doing it right and I started teaching in 2008 where it was like here's your class here are the objectives however you get them there that's down to your professional judgment whereas now it's here's your class here's the objectives and here's how you've got to do it and I just can't work like that because there's teaching and people it's one big grey area there's no formula for doing it everything is a grey area and what works one day might not work the next day so all I wanted was a bit of professional trust to do what I do best and let's face it Hollie it's the signaling's not coming through for me Sarah I don't know if you if you agree I think where the problem came at this stage in Hollie's journey is her diagnosis is new to her but she's scrambling and researching and finding out everything she can trialing and testing and working out to see what makes makes her tick and make it right but the school not only did did they come at it from a point of view I don't understand what this is I think it was one step beyond that I think I do understand what this is and I've made my judgment about what you're bringing to me and therefore we're going to approach this nonsense in in the way you're presenting it what are your thoughts Sarah about Hollie's journey so far? I'm going to use the word inconvenient I'm going to that's the word and you you know I love the bones of you Hollie but Hollie you presented a number of inconveniences that they weren't prepared to flex or or even acknowledge in the right way your diagnosis is an inconvenience putting a cover over the lights is an inconvenience putting something on a screen isn't it your style and approach is an inconvenience it's wrong and and I go back to and I've said it so many times in this podcast if a child had those reasonable adjustments on their EHCP they would be done without question oh that child needs a an Erland screen over there over their monitor no problem class teacher needs to change the background color on the whiteboard to accommodate the one child to make it accessible no problem and and I just cannot understand why adults who are managers in your circumstances in order to avoid me generalizing could not see that that was exactly the same situation and to have to fight for it and sit there and explain and and on that morning so there was all this kind of background with the behavior management which I know you know I've been teaching for 16 years I know what I'm doing you know it's not my first go around and he'd said when I said you know about these there's all these admin tasks and he said well why don't you just do it how everyone else does it and I was like that's really ableist I can't do it how everyone else does it because my brain doesn't work like everybody else's and I said you know because I have a disability and I'm entitled to have adjustments made and he was like oh what do you mean a disability you mean ADHD and I said yes legally I have a disability and I'm entitled to adjustments because I'm protected it's a characteristic under the Equality Act so he then said he was like right okay so you know we've got this we've got this and he listed off what I'd said and I was like yep yep yep and then he said if if there's one thing that we can do to support you right now it would be with you know the behavior management stuff and I went okay that's fine if that's if that's what you want to take first more than happy to accept support because I thought go on then you you come into my class then and you show me how you would do it um so I was like yeah that's fine and then he took a pause and he was like right okay do you think you're being too nice and I just I just went don't don't do that don't put it on me and I and I was just because I I hate that understanding children and embracing their what their needs and making adjustments for them and not shouting at them not making them walk the perimeter of the playground but wanting to have restorative conversation with them that that's considered too nice and so I just went don't do that don't as I do not put it on me um I felt in that moment I felt gaslit I felt like someone was saying all of this is you basically saying that you can't cope with that class and you're being too nice I mean my my kind of like pin-up teacher has always been miss honey that to me that is always the teacher that I aim to be that teacher that sees you and you know I've got got cards from my previous class that said like I feel comfortable I feel safe in your class I feel like I've been able to come out of my shell in my own time and you know you're talking year fives like these gorgeous children just saying um you know one of them said thank you for understanding that sometimes I just need some time on my own like imagine you think of your own children going into a class where a teacher just understands that if you need to take yourself off we had a little calm down corner which was never very popular little calm down corner take yourself off in there that's okay it's all right I know that you'll catch up when you get back out have gone five minutes but then I'd have the head teacher or the executive head come in and say what you're doing in there you were fine at you were fine at lunchtime out there do you work and it was like they may have been looking fine at lunchtime that was 10 minutes ago maybe now they're not fine and it was just this constant walk-in and judgment straight away no trust no trust at all um and so when when he said that I felt my anxiety like the panic attack rising the lightheadedness I looked at my hands and my hands were shaking and I was like it's happening again it's happening now and I was showing him my hands um and he started going oh I can't say anything to you without you getting all um but you're getting all worked up I'm trying to help here and I was just going I was like look I did a really good job with the uh with the boy who was in my class last year who was almost um on a permanent exclusion and he what and he didn't go in the end because he was in my class and I took time with him I said I did a good job with him and I'm doing a good job with in this class as well and I was like and and I was stood up by that point and my voice was raised and I was basically saying how dare you put this on me um and it was only me and him I think there's probably some key stage one teachers who were sort of the other side of the building um and and and then yeah with this whole oh I can't say anything can I can't say anything without you getting all worked up like I'm trying to help you and I was just saying well this isn't helping this isn't helping at all and I am leaving this I'm leaving this meeting before I say something I regret so I walked out went back into the staff room to get my coffee which I hadn't even taken a sip of yet the um site manager caretaker was in there and he was just like you were right and I was like yeah fine because this is the thing people weren't used to seeing me like that or hearing me like that I was the person that would go in there in the morning and write like a positive affirmation on the staff notice board and stuff because I want and asking people how they are because I want people to feel good at work I want them to feel understood so went back to my classroom and got straight on the phone to my husband rich we we'd only just been married then um and he was like I was I was just it turned from panic attack feeling to just floods of tears and I could hardly get my words out and he was like right come home he was like pack up your stuff come home you're not staying at work like that um so I got the stuff tried to find the head again he wasn't in his office um tried to phone him but his phone was on the desk um tried to phone the executive head with two different numbers that I've got he wasn't picking up because he was at the other school in the trust um and I just thought I've got to get out of here walked into the car park and the uh reception teacher was there and she was just like oh my god are you all right um and I said I I could just about get out I just need to go home she must have thought that there'd been some kind of like family tragedy or something like that from the way that I was acting and she was like get in your car go home drive safely I will make sure everyone knows that you're gone and she gave me a massive hug um and I drove home and I got straight on the phone to my sister and she was like I want you to get home I want you to phone the doctor I want you to self-cert for a week and then I want you to get signed off because you are not psychologically safe in that space so she's a manager in the NHS um and she was just like no that's not what we do so she was like this is what you can do so I've got home phone the doctor um sent them an email saying I'm self-serving for this week but I have made an appointment at the doctor um and I will speak to you when I'm ready executive head then emails back and says I'll phone you tomorrow and I said no you won't phone me tomorrow when I'm ready I'll let you know and he or it was always a a term well my duty of care of blah blah blah and I was thinking oh now now we've got a duty of care have we um I think he was probably quite disappointed that the head of school had spoken to me before he had chance to um because he the executive head is very by the book so he was like next time I see you we'll chat about it we'll get everything sorted for you and I think he kind of someone's got in there first and not dealt with it correctly what I'm hearing Hollie is something's happened in in your journey you've had a diagnosis or an awareness because asking for reasonable adjustments you don't need a diagnosis I'm writing and thinking so you've gone in and you've decided to take yourself out of the shadow so to speak and bring to your management your head teacher's attention what you need in order to make you operate as as a teacher they're not unreasonable but at every point your boundaries have been tested the an element you use the word yourself gaslighting now we know you we were at that wedding one of the best weddings ever can still can still remember parts of it and then I know you imagine if you're not you and your boundaries are not held the way in which you would know you won't be phoning me tomorrow you you've reaffirmed and you've held your boundaries because you you are in a better place you have got self-worth it must be awful for people who would just fold at the first hurdle where that's concerned and I'm sure there's many of them and you know we'll come on to talk about the work you do afterwards Sarah any thoughts at this point about bringing to the attention of your employer or your workplace your needs I I haven't got direct experience of it but I have got direct experience of the point in time where where things started to go awry for me and I like Hollie had some boundaries and and push back well no you're saying this this and this about me but you had a responsibility here and you didn't do this this and this and it was the minute I started pushing back that it that it escalated quickly to to put it like that and and over a course literally over a course of a few days so although different circumstances there are parallels I think I think there's something for me about and I am going to generalize that schools think that employment legislation and certain certain certain laws and things like that if it's too inconvenient for them to do it in a environment then then they're not going to do it flexible working and reasonable adjustments this that and the other and I think it's compounded by the fact that so many of us do not know what our legal and contractual rights are hello loyal listeners I'm going to go full on Charles Dickens in this buy us a coffee slot and as Oliver Twist we're going to ask for a little bit more any pennies you can donate to keep our podcast funded would be greatly appreciated see the buy us a coffee link in the episode notes thank you and our responsibilities but what our rights are I wish it was a lecture at uni and and I think it's I'm seeing it time and time again across schools with my new job and obviously the support group and stuff that neurodivergent people adults children everyone to even know what you need is is the first step you like even nobody asks you nobody sort of says how can I support you what works for you what doesn't work for you I mean until I started my new job no one had ever asked me that before and when my manager asked me I didn't know how to answer I just thought I don't really know you know if you're neurodivergent your self-diagnosis of that is valid you don't have to think oh well I won't get help unless I've got a diagnosis you know we'd all be waiting for years and years and years but it's the like you say it's just knowing what you're entitled to so if it hadn't been for my sister who I mean I don't know what kind of training she got for her management role in the NHS but she she was saying to me you know if they want a well-being call you decide when you're ready for that and it doesn't have to be your manager it can be anyone from work it can be a friend from work who checks into you because that's for your well-being and and she said email back and say you are allowed to phone me on Friday of next week which would have given me you know say 10 days and that's when I will talk to you I will expect a call from you on Friday next week at 12 o'clock one o'clock or whatever and she said and they will not be allowed to contact you until then unless you need to send them like your fit note or whatever and if it if it hadn't have been for her knowing that I would have been on the phone to management the next day probably in another state of panic because that that's kind of then what started to happen anything to do with school would raise this response in me and and I was like a different person and it got to a point where because I actually got back before my husband had dropped my daughter at school and I was just in such a mess she then went to school made me a present because she was in reception and the teachers were saying oh what have you made and she said I've made a present with mummy because uh the naughty man at school made her cry and she brought it home for me and obviously her teachers knew I was a teacher so um and I just thought she's only five and she's already she already knows actually what's just happened with mummy and mummy should never ever have to feel like that um and I said to her I said to her don't you worry mummy no one's ever going to treat mummy like this again um and I just thought like it was just it was just bizarre like for me and like you know me I'm positive and I optimistic and I like to think the best of people I like to sort of work towards something feel like I'm progressing I like to put time into people so for me to be like that I I now cannot put myself back in that state of mind because it's so foreign to me so to actually get to that point where I was almost broken and I just thought I've forgotten who I am and almost broken so soon in change my lights change my board and let me do your bloody nonsense of your bullshit on a Friday morning in a different room how how hard was that to do unless what sat behind it was where's Hollie's certificates where's Hollie's certificates I've just walked past her classroom again and bloody chaos it's chaos there's kids in teepees and wigwams and she's fairy like what and and sitting behind that was actually they didn't want you so it wasn't just an inconvenience an unnecessary inconvenience as Sarah's saying it could have actually been an opportunity to bring somebody in who thinks walking the green mile at lunchtime with kids right is the best thing ever okay because I'll tell you something I would not send my kid to a school that that said that was the behavior management policy because we've been we've been teaching since the 90s and I don't think schools have adopted that kind of and so you clearly look at how that school's set up how and the irony is it's the second time you've been in so they knew what they were getting it's not like they wanted a Miss Trunchbull and Miss Hollie turned up so I don't think it's just about the ignorance of and I mean I'm not speaking on behalf of what happened so please this is just me surmising but it was almost like here we go again with her yeah and you know I've noticed that's a theme from listening to the podcast episodes I think it was was it Leanne who was the creative she does the voiceover and stuff now she said that whenever you stick your head up and you say that's not right or those bloody water bottles oh and whenever you sort of go in and go actually do you know what that doesn't have to work like that it could work like this so when you get a new teacher and you get like fresh fresh blood fresh pair of eyes and you can kind of like zoom into what making things more efficient or whatever and I was always that teacher who would say no you've observed me twice this term you're not observing me again or I don't work a Friday so I will not be checking my email so I didn't know that this was happening on Monday or whatever so I was always very and that's a neurodivergent thing as well um you know justice sensitivity you know what's right you know what's wrong and you're willing to say that's not right um when it was in that in that meeting with the head I was made sure I said that's ableism you're not allowed to say that to me there's been times where I've been in an interview um abroad um and in the interview they said well um who's going to look after your kids while you work and I just went you're not allowed to ask me that and I was just thinking well obviously I'm not getting this job but I want you to know and the thing is why I people who know their rights in the workplace if um if management are afraid of them it's because they don't want to do things properly now I don't know do you know what I mean like surely the training that you get should include access to work how to support your staff well-being but it doesn't see they just seem to just promote whoever's been there the longest people who benefit from you not having boundaries are never going to support you by putting a boundary in place and and that's what this is about this is this is about understanding this this world of how people work differently and going back to Leanne, Leanne Herron and her episode you reflected on that with me over a couple of voice notes Hollie and you said what was it what was it you came to in that moment of realization about embracing different ways of working and that kind of thing well that's the whole point of neurodiversity the the lady she's called Judy Singer the lady that coined the term neurodiversity was based on biodiversity and how all the different species that work together you know we watch like David Attenborough and stuff we talk about how because that does that that then can live like that and it all kind of works and we embrace that we realize there has to be different ways of working to be to sort of sustain evolution but we don't think about that with our brains so in a workplace if you end up with if you think about the interview process if you're not going to make adjustments for people which actually you have to do make adjustments for people if they need an adjustment or if they have a disability you then end up with people employing people or interviewing people that are all working in a certain way if you then end up filling your SLT with those people filling your staff with those people you're never getting any other thought patterns any other ways of working in there and you have to you have to embrace all these different ways that people work even when you know like the completer finisher the ideas person that's where that's coming from that's how you make a success of things and if you embrace that yeah this is the way Hollie works that's what she does that's the way that teacher works that's what she does and he's over there doing that and just then imagine then getting into a meeting thinking right how are we going to move forward with this policy or this thing that we're stuck on you've got all these different brains all these different ideas coming through great and then you can embrace that but it's almost like this cookie cutter situation where if you don't do it like they do it then you're out yeah but I then the peak irony is you're stood in front of a class with all these different ways of thinking all these different ways of doing but you're expected to accommodate all of that we're really clued up on that and how we can work with this child and make an adjustment for that child and and now we've got all these different things going on for the kids but not the staff Sarah what are your thoughts on it because I'd just be interested to see what you're thinking is of what Hollie's talking about at the moment a team doesn't work unless you've got different different people in it and you and I are the classic example of that you and I are the classic example of that I am a complete finisher and you are ideas and and and the vision and the cut into you're the listener you hear the really critical bit in something and then you go I think we need to do this this and this and I go fine I'll make it happen you cannot have it if we had a team when me and you were exactly the same nothing would ever get done and and fundamentally I think I think Hollie's bang on the mark here and and it does go right the way back to the interview process you you you you apply for a job you can say what adjustments you might need but then there's a fear about doing that in case by saying it that then means that you don't get an interview and there's some really good practice going on in the world of business with interview questions being provided before the interview so that you can prepare and it's not a blind side because people are genuinely terrified about answering a question on the spot and it's not because they don't know the answer it's because of the the kind of fight or flight or freeze thing isn't it so there is great practice out there but it's not consistent practice and I think there's a degree of lip service by you know tell us what your reasonable adjustments are blah blah blah because they have to not because it's the right thing to do and I think that's that's the difference have to or doing it because it's the right thing to do I think what else is important and I keep going back to you were having a conversation in ignorance in in our head office team when when we were realising that Sarah for example with her neurodivergence and some of our other team members guess what I did I went down a rabbit hole to understand I listened to Sarah who was going down her own rabbit hole educate me educate me on what this means and I remember being sat in the office or it might have been outside or something and she took a piece of paper and as if I was four years old she started drawing how the brain worked to give me the example we started with the basics of what is neurotypical what is neurodivergent within that there can be different and she walked me through because I had a thirst and a quest to learn because in order to step into somebody's and it gave me loads of information about myself stuff that still comes through all the time but we started on this journey together to really understand and pad our way through you were an instrumental to us Hollie you know you were and also what you then got to realise is yes this happens within the workplace yes the employer or the line manager seeks to understand what's happening but at the same time forget Sarah's position as COO forget everything that she does in the business there was a 50 something woman or 40 late 40 early 40s Sarah 50 a year old friend who was almost going through this emotional realisation and that was a real journey for Sarah this is why this happened a grief and anger a real acceptance of that that realisation of this is what's happened so when you've got the cornerstone of your business going through this whole awakening process the last thing she'd want me to say is so right what is it you need earphones is that what you're saying you can't have our top wall in front of you because it's going to distract you well why because what was going through and processing would have finished her to be met with that yeah because it's about trying to understand yourself yes then have to try and explain that to someone whose tone is judgmental and once you start looking into all this stuff the the way they diagnose is using the DSM-5 they're trying to kind of change it so it's more of a UK based one because the DSM-5 is American but it's all deficit based because it's written by it's made by neurotypical people based on how much of an inconvenience you are to them and it's also all the research is based on white boys so that's why if you're female your autism might present in a different way or if you're a female who's being going down the pathway for ADHD you often don't get diagnosed as hyperactive because for females the hyperactivity is in their head it's in the way they talk it's in the way they process so already you know if you think you start looking into am I autistic do I have ADHD you're already faced with everything you can't do and then if you get a diagnosis and you're thrown into the world and then you ask for help and then you're judged for that you will always think everything is your fault and that's a neurodivergent thing as well and one of the biggest misconceptions of autistic people is that they can't have empathy they have too much empathy they're masking to make you feel comfortable you know they're that even the other day I was talking to a teacher and she said that one of the children had been refused a diagnosis because the consultant pediatrician said he can't be autistic because he's making eye contact so it doesn't work like that if you've met one person with autism you've met one person with autism you've met one person with ADHD you've met one person with ADHD so I could walk into that office and say this is overwhelming this is overwhelming this is overwhelming and then someone else with ADHD could come in and just say oh that's all fine for me it doesn't negate what the other person feels and that's that's when it becomes psychologically unsafe you're not supported in that workplace and you are disabled and it's almost like it's it's seen as like popular now when actually the rate of neurodivergence has always been here and the diagnosis rate has always been here and now we're just catching up so yeah it does seem like it's popular but actually we're just catching up to what the rate actually is so that's why we've got access to so much more material now that we can really reflect on ourselves and it's not it's not a popular thing nobody wants that I don't want to have to take amphetamine in the morning just to be a person do you know what I mean like it's the the whole neurodivergent life is just full of shame shame I didn't do this what and I'm constantly speaking negatively to myself and my husband will be like that's my wife you're talking about and then I'm like pulls me up for it I'm like oh gosh sorry yeah I shouldn't and you know in front of I mean he's an angel isn't he he's an angel