037 - Pit Pony Hollie Jones - Classroom to Neurodivergent Educator - Part 2

In this second part to Hollie Jones’ story, we dive deeper into her legal battle for workplace justice, the emotional toll of discrimination, and the life-changing shift that followed.

After an appalling "well-being" call that questioned her ADHD diagnosis, Hollie knew she was facing more than ignorance - she was up against systemic failure. 

With unwavering determination, she documented every step, stood her ground, and ultimately forced those in power to reckon with their treatment of neurodivergent staff.

In this episode, Hollie shares:

• How she fought back through grievance procedures and legal action.
• The psychological impact of being gaslit and sidelined by leadership.
• The power of a paper trail—and why every neurodivergent employee should keep one.
• How she found a fulfilling new career advocating for neurodiversity in schools.

Hollie's is a story of demanding change, knowing your worth, and proving that neurodivergent professionals belong in every workplace.

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Edited with finesse by our Podcast Super Producer, Mike Roberts of Making Digital Real

Transcript

Hello and welcome to the Pit Pony Podcast with myself Sharon Cawley and me Sarah Dunwood in which we talk to teachers from all walks of life who exited the classroom from what they thought was a job for life and thrived on the other side of teaching. Coming up in this episode It's not a popular thing. Nobody wants it. 

I don't want to have to take amphetamine in the morning just to be a person. Do you know what I mean? Like it's the whole neurodivergent life is just full of shame. Shame, I didn't do this and I'm constantly speaking negatively to myself and my husband will be like that's my wife you're talking about and then I'm like pulls me up for it and I'm like oh gosh sorry yeah I shouldn't and you know I mean he's an angel isn't he? He's an angel. 

He is an absolute absolute angel. So what I'm going to do now Holt, I'm going to say to you great discussion sitting around this process but what happened next within the school? You're off, you're waiting for the phone call with the executive head teacher on the Friday, walk us through that. So obviously had to sort of go for the doctors and everything, request online for a fit note and that was all that was all granted and everything and then it got to the Friday of the phone call and it was a well-being call and so I answered the phone and it was the executive head and he said I've got the admin got the admin the business manager here taking notes and I was like right okay.

The first thing he said was I'm not going to ask you how you are. I was like okay that's you know weird way to start well-being call but okay. He went it was he's not great with his words anyway so it took him a long time to basically ask if I was planning on killing myself and I you know he went round the houses and I just basically said if you're if you're asking me if I'm going to kill myself within the next couple of weeks the answer is no. 

Can I just stop you can I just stop you there Hollie before we go into this car crash of a phone call? Surely to God, surely to God that executive head would have said because I would have done it I'm on a sticky wicket here with this woman I don't know what I don't know but she knows what she knows. Can somebody else do this call? Can somebody else get on this phone call and either model me for me or do it for me because at no point would he have got a text book that starts with a welfare call going I'm not going to ask you how you are unless he picked up the wrong book on how not to do a welfare call. Yeah I don't know what his I don't know what his aim was in that and he's too much of a controller to give that to someone else and I don't I don't think he even knew really that it was just a check-in to see how I was.

Well I didn't know because as it then went on he used that call to ask me whether oh he said HR wants to know whether you're whether you've got proof of your diagnosis whether it was done through the NHS and whether you are officially classed as disabled and I was like so I said well if HR want to ask me why don't they ask me and he said well I don't know I had a meeting with them and they they asked me to ask you and I was thinking that's not true and I said well first of all I don't need a diagnosis to ask for adjustments second of all I actually don't need to give you any paperwork and third of all yes I am protected because I am classed as disabled because I have ADHD and that's protected. So I ended up saying I don't really understand why you're asking me this now because this is a this is a well-being you're supposed to be asking how I am you're not you're basically accusing me of making up my disability during a call where you're supposed to be asking me how I am. Yeah I said it because by that point I'd had you know 10 days out of the school building myself back up and just thinking I can't believe what just happened to me and then this call came and I was ready for it and I and I thought it like so my sister said to me she said if it's if a member of my team's gone off um been signed off they tell me when their well-being call is and if they don't want me to do it I'll get someone who they're comfortable with but she said the only questions I ever asked them are how are you you know tell me honestly is there anything I can do to help you get back to work and then if there's not it's just right well you stay off until you're ready and then they know that there's permission to heal before they come back and one thing he did say was we're going to put a referral into occupational health and I said brilliant thank you um that would be great when the referral actually came through and I saw the paperwork they lied on the referral as well they'd they'd talked they'd said on the referral that I had told them I had ADHD but I've never shown them any proof that I had walked out of school um without telling anybody and that they just wanted to support me to get back and I just thought that's a lie well that's obviously a lie and I'd said that to him I said oh I've actually I've just I've just had the referral through but that that's not true is it what you've written on the referral I didn't walk out without telling anybody I'm not off because um I can't remember what they'd put but I basically just said you've lied on that phone because that's not what happened and then he said well that's what the head teacher told me happened and I was thinking oh and is that all that is that all that counts then because this is actually what happened and I told him what really happened and it just made me think and this is on your well-being call this is all on my well-being call so by the time you put that phone down you're zen oh my gosh I was you know what I mean I was I was shaking again kind of in through the roof and I I just I just thought to myself do you not do you not realize you're dealing with I mean at the time you're dealing with a 38 year old professional intelligent woman who do you think you're talking to right now that's what it was like they think they're talking to some loon ball a woo woo now she's got the latest face she's got a tattoo she's got a nose ring what's what's the latest trend she's adhd well isn't every other bloody middle-aged woman these days that is what you that is what they thought they were dealing with so in answer to your question Hollie absolutely not did they know who they were dealing with they were going to find out who they were dealing with because they didn't know they'd got your sister in the wings they didn't know they'd got rich backing you up and they certainly didn't know that you've got the ability to read and research and then this is the beautiful thing you can have your sister you can have rich you can have your research you've got to have the guts to either print an email or open your mouth and go don't yeah oh and the paper trail was beautiful I got everything I went I was like right before they block me out of anything screenshotting everything transferring everything printing stuff off I'm having all of this because I'd spoken to my local union rep and I must say the NEU were amazing brilliant they they were fantastic and I don't know what it was I think they they all I just felt really heard by all of them and I don't know whether it's because I because I know not not everybody has that experience but I don't know whether it's because I phoned them and I said I know I'm protected under this I know that this is discrimination I know that this is illegal and I want to know what to do about it and they escalated it through to regional rep and then the NEU solicitors which unfortunately we had to go that far in the end well take it take us through you've just had your phone call you're feeling calm as anything now totally supported yeah your anxiety is not through the roof you sit down and what happens after that phone call hole it took me a while to process do you know it was almost funny it almost made me think because I don't I don't know about about you Sarah but I always feel like I must be making it up always doubt myself just like no just make it do you Sarah yeah well yeah yeah yeah must be imagining it how how how have I got through to this age and and it's not been obvious and and I must be an imposter and yeah no constant daily am I am I really and particularly one of the things I hear Sarah say quite a lot is Sarah what was your main role for all those years in a school when it came to kids and spotting things and go on what was your job I was a Senko how could I see it how could I see it in everybody else I could spot I could spot SEN in a child before anybody else had how could I not spot my own neurodivergence probably because I was neurodivergent I mean that's the answer to the question but yeah it's it's still even even just in a conversation on Friday that was exactly the same thing how did I not see it and I think it I think in some respects we dug into that Hollie you came to your awakening and realization within the classroom actually I think on reflection what it was with you Sarah was you were holding everything together so tightly you're masking your organization the time constraints you had on you as a deputy you actually didn't have time to and I think what we've talked about in the past on our 27 hours a day on the phone is when the space opened up and everything fell away that had hidden and masked it was the space outside of the classroom yeah yeah yeah probably what it was just actually time to self-reflect and to sit with yourself your life isn't always about everybody else hmm yeah yeah I was certainly um seeing things and going oh that's a bit strange why do I do that and and and it was that simple and and and ultimately it came to a head with me didn't it that in um myself and Sharon and another team member in a meeting and and I'm an absolute so-and-so for putting self-imposed deadlines on myself that are completely impossible and then I kick myself over things and and I had a complete and utter genuine meltdown over something that I'd self-imposed and I'd never experienced that before and that was kind of the moment I was like whoa what was that and I was exhausted afterwards oh bless you couldn't speak to anybody like bless Sharon tried ringing me and I'm like nope I just I didn't understand I can I could I've seen this is what I've got to live with right two occasions right first occasion we are in in the Connexus world we're in a multi-head teacher meeting talking about this project we're doing Sarah crosses the leg over right bangs her knee and because of a tolerance level to pain because of another condition that she lives with she passes out right last Sunday Hollie oh we'd got a pit pony in person this was right so we end up with all these yeah but can we can we just clarify on this that I pass out I come round in this in this head teacher's office with all of these staff around me and all the rest of it and then after I don't know after about 10 minutes and a glass of water I get back up sit at the desk get my notes out and carry on the meeting works out a load of tickets but what was what was hilarious what was hilarious it was in this is it a school in Preston it was in north of England wasn't it really Blackburn Blackburn and round the table there's these these head teachers all women all all about 25 to 30 years in do you know what I mean you're like oh hey up oh she's gone a bit funny oh next thing they all stand around her they call in a TA who comes in with a wet paper towel it was brilliant what I saw I saw Sarah do it again last Sunday on Zoom when we were recording an episode but I saw her entire body shut down I also saw the same thing when she was on Zoom in that meeting for some reason we were talking and I was utterly blindsided because I you know when you almost think the Zoom is frozen and then there was just this this almost like an out-of-body experience and she'd I've got to go I've got to go I'm left in floods of tears and it was like I don't understand now at that point at that point Hollie that could have been an inconvenience that could have been an well what is it what have you what have you been watching on TikTok that you now think you've got okay but it wasn't from the from the start of it there's genuine compassion and understanding and empathy to go some it's not right what is it and and I had to if you are neurotypical you've then got to fight against what was happening to you how can we fix it how can we make this go all right right you've got it right is there a cure what do we do I don't so at the moment I don't think I think this episode will date in 20 years and people will be laughing that we have this type of conversation sitting about these workplace environments this will date so badly hopefully but you're now in a position where you're at a school you're being treated the way you are and you're having to do something really quite canny which is I'm pulling down my paper trail so something within you Holl must have said right I'm going to be in for a fight here and I was up for it as well because I thought it was after that phone call and the occupational health referral I thought they're not covering their back they're they're trying to rewind the clock a little bit and redo it and I thought I'm not letting that happen um it's it's not and it's not as if they didn't know me the head teacher was was a friend of mine you know I've known him for a while he was a friend of mine and and you know his wife and his family and everything like lovely family it was just in that moment I just I was just completely misunderstood so then what am I what am I there's no way that I can go in there then so what I'm thinking is uh we've had this conversation like you know executive head teachers made a complete balls up of the uh well-being call the um he's telling me HR wants to ask me all these questions so the the thing I do once I'm off that call is I email HR and obviously I'm emailing I'm not phoning anyone I'm emailing I I wrote down yeah wrote down all the notes from the uh the conversation of um the well-being call um got straight on to HR and said look this has just been my well-being call um and apparently you want to know about this this and this um you know you want to you want to see my proof of diagnosis you want to know that it was done through the NHS and you want to know if I'm protected um under the Equalities Act so I got straight on to HR and I was like right if if this is what you want to know why don't you just ask me why are you going through the executive head teacher because I knew it was a lie and because this executive head teacher had done that sort of thing before so in my first maybe couple of weeks at the school he came in and he said uh oh the cleaners phoned me last night saying that your room wasn't um very tidy and I was just thinking well I I will always make friends I will always make friends with the cleaners and I know their names and I know their kids and everything so I would be and I know no cleaners but the guts to phone a head teacher and I know that the cleaners think you're a bit of a knob what so there's no way there's no way they're gonna but so what had happened was he thought that my room was a mess um which it probably was because I'm a messy person messy brain messy person and I knew that he was trying to tell me that but putting the cleaners in in the firing line instead so obviously I said to the class oh I'm so sorry it was such a mess and she was just like we don't mind you're a teacher you've got enough to do that's our job we'll sort that and I said can I do that so I knew that he was doing the same thing again so I got straight on to HR and said look this is what's just happened if you want to know all this why don't you just ask me HR emailed back and said um the purpose of a well-being call is to check your well-being um I had I had a meeting with the executive head and gave him some suggestions of things that he might want to talk to you about but you know I didn't I haven't asked him to ask you anything he must have then got off and and um emailed the executive head because the next email I got off him is uh um he the executive head will no longer contact you anymore and uh it'll it'll go through your union it's like a classic classic case of of triangulation isn't it was Sharon and I were talking about this this week of bringing somebody else in to to either deflect or amplify your position and and it happens so often and unless again unless you unless you're savvy and go yeah no that didn't happen or there's or there's no way that they would have done that it's it's easy then to get sucked into it but it's cosmic playground tactics I don't like you and Jane Smith doesn't like you either and she was telling me that sure or it's weak leadership that goes the cleaners have told me that I need to tell you off actually Hollie I was walking across your room last night if we leave the room in that state every night it takes the cleaners 20 minutes longer than it does every other room can we have a talk there are ways in which you can because if you'd have been approached like that and gone oh my god I'm inconvenient to the cleaners your rejection sensitivity alone would have made absolute you know headway on that so HR write to you and go okay you'll now be contacted from now on by the unions how are you feeling at this point do you know the writings on the wall at this stage yeah so I think at that point I was like well I've pretty much been refused workplace adjust like these easy reasonable adjustments that I've asked for um I've had you know I've put my foot down about this call about when I'm ready for it when the call does come they're accusing me of making up that I've got ADHD and then I've just caught the executive head out in a lie so even now HR are telling him not to contact me um my union have agreed that it is um discrimination it's workplace discrimination disability discrimination so I'm there thinking well if they're not going to make adjustments I'm not going to be able to go back in that that's as simple as it is if you don't make reasonable adjustments for someone they cannot work in that workplace so after that the occupational health um call came through and it was the first time that I felt listened to and seen and I told I told the nurse that as well I said I really appreciate what you're saying she she basically agreed with me and she said is that all you've asked for and I said yeah that's that's all I I asked for really because of this and she was just like well I don't I don't know what the problem is then and I was like well I don't either and I want it on record that the reason they've referred me is a lie that didn't happen um and she said well I'm not going to tell them anything that you haven't already told them so the occupational health report was you know Hollie's got ADHD she needs these adjustments I would recommend this this this and this which is everything I'd ask for anyway um and she said and actually it might be worth you having um some like you know like ADHD coaching or mental health check-ins or whatever you can you can access that as well so I was just like I'll put it all down put it all down there and so that was sent back to a copy sent to me and the school um so that goes all goes on the timeline as well and it it was almost like because they because that they'd agreed with me they then almost tried to get me in another way so then they were saying well when you did your medical questionnaire when you first started you didn't tell us you had ADHD so obviously I'm there thinking I wasn't diagnosed so I can't put it down so I you know I didn't realize that I could actually put you know I'm on the waiting list for an ADHD assessment and I think because I was I knew them all anyway so I was always talking about it you didn't put it down on your medical questionnaire but the minute you knew you had you brought it to your employer's attention yeah and like I'm like another thing was um oh you didn't say that you had anxiety um but when you were signed off work it was because of anxiety and I said well that's what the doctor put on the fit note but I told them everything that happened and what what they put on the fit note was what they put on the fit note like that's not down to me and then they would say well you didn't say you had anxiety on your medical form and actually it's I take the anti-anxieties because of PMDD so I don't consider myself as having anxiety but I take anti-anxieties because of my PMDD premenstrual dysphoria and so it was all it always then became like the semantics of what I told them I had and how I can't support you because it wasn't on your medical form you didn't declare it and it's like that's not how it works you know I've it it was like this because I was friends with the head I'd sit in his office in the morning and chat with him and um and we'd we'd laugh about like oh I'll just wait for my meds to kick in and all this kind of stuff and it was just an open thing it's making there's a difference isn't there between deliberately not declaring something and something that doesn't wouldn't fit on a form at that point because it's not been identified diagnosed or whatever and and that for me is absolutely critical to take something where somebody hasn't declared it ie there's been a degree of subterfuge let's put it like that that's a very different scenario than somebody who didn't know that they had ADHD and actually doesn't have anxiety until the point where the employer has created a circumstance that has made that person person anxious that's two very different things very different and very distinct naughty it's like you're supposed to be able to preempt that you're going to be anxious about something they've done when it was like being accused or just making everything up and and you don't need a diagnosis anyway so why would it matter I've got all the documentation that I need I've got the titration reports I've got the um initial referral I've got my diagnostic report I've got it all I don't have to show any of them anything do you know what I mean I don't have they don't and actually the report the ADHD report is really really personal and you know thinking about it and it goes back into your history into your childhood and that sort of stuff and I share what I want to share and actually if I had have shared with them um you know more of my sort of personal journey to where I was then maybe they wouldn't have said stuff like oh I'm just checking you're not going to kill yourself and stuff because as a child of a suicided parent that could have been a huge trigger for me you know you and and it there's just a complete insensitivity as to what you're dealing with and that that person who signed off is signed off because they're just not well and my sister had to keep saying to me Hollie you're not well you're not in work because you're not well go for a walk go to the gym go for a coffee with your friend you're trying to get better you do not have to stay in the house isolated like a hermit get out and do things you enjoy it's like trying to bring people up to speed with where we are this reminds me of my dad in the 80s trying to re-educate him about homosexuality it really was and then sometimes he'd try and he'd get it wrong and then sometimes he'd default to this this absolute ignorance about what was going on here because it was a lack of intelligence it was a lack of understanding it was upbringing there was a disbelief um and I think bearing in mind we're not talking about something that happened to you five or six years ago this happened within the last two years right okay so where are we when it comes to unions now get involved you're set to form what's the next stage so the regional union rep was like look it's it's a it seems like it's a bit late but we really do have to go through the grievance procedure um the lawyer the solicitor from the NEU got involved and they were like yeah it's it's not nothing's going to come out of it but it's a box we have to tick because they're going to say did you lodge a grievance so let's get that lodged now so I think that would be my advice to people would be lodge a grievance sooner because then everything else can just happen quicker um so I had to um they helped me to write it and everything so I had to sort of like send a letter saying you know this is an official grievance or whatever um and it was to the chair of governors the chair of governors was kind of in the pocket of the executive head so we I knew that any reply I was getting from her was actually written by him and signed by her I mean obviously I have no proof for that but just from knowing the workings of the school and the wording of the letters as well so it went through a a grievance procedure um and that was just bizarre I've never that it's like it's like the police policing themselves I have no idea why that is a valid um process at all because obviously we went through this thing I went in for a meeting with them regional union rep met me there I told them I'm not having that meeting at school I want that meeting and and I you know I said I work and not I work I said we have access to local council stuff so we can go somewhere neutral um they booked it at the uh like the local cathedral that had meeting rooms and stuff that they had a link with but I was I was fine with that so went there and they were they asked me a lot of stuff and at one point it I got I don't cry very often like in front of people but it got quite personal where they were saying you know what does teaching mean to you what um what do you love about teaching and that sort of thing um and it it got me really I don't know and actually that's when the union rep stepped in and said I think I don't know why you're going down that road of questioning like let's just stick to what built up to this point here because in in that moment I just thought I really miss the children I really miss them I love my job I love the children I love the parents like and I just thought it's in that moment I just thought this is such a shame this is just such a shame here because you know if you've got a child with ADHD and they're going into school and they're being taught by a teacher with ADHD they're going to be understood to a degree like I know everyone presents differently but how how much more safe would you feel sending your child into that class um you know with their little quirks and their little bits that make them unique and someone else just knowing oh yeah I know how that feels um and I just thought like I loved my job because they got me and I got them and we were a team and and just what a shame this is now now that class have got a supply teacher and then it's a next it's another person next week and that's just going to be really really bad for them and it got me really really upset and I just thought those poor children don't deserve any of this um we stuck to the facts and then obviously um I got a letter saying oh you know the outcome of the grievance procedure is that nobody's done anything wrong here I mean of course like well so it is the the outcome of the grievance procedure is we found ourselves guilty and we've cocked the whole thing up I just I don't understand why that's even it's not a procedure it's just it's just it's humiliating as well so but that was a box ticked and after that the lawyer said so what what we want to do is we want to contact ACAS and get like a case number and everything get it all get it all logged and she said and then what we can do is we can um she said I don't want you to hand your notice in until the very very last day that you're allowed to do it because she said while you're still employed you're protected more so if you're thinking the last day for me to hand my notice in was October well I think it was going to be October to leave at the end of December because I think I was temporary contract so I think it was a little bit different but um yeah but the lawyer was saying don't do it yet because we need you employed by then and then as this was kind of going along um the lawyer said to me um this is actually um could be considered um unfair dismissal constructive dismissal and it's a constructive dismissal and it's also um it's also discrimination in the workplace as well so she said um what we want to do is um if you're going to resign you need to be careful with the wording on your letter so she said write your letter and then I can advise you on it so they advised me on my letter and it was all it was it was one of those um I can't remember how you word it now but if it wasn't for this I wouldn't be resigning if it hadn't have been for your lack of this then I wouldn't need to resign but unfortunately because of this I'm having to so it was a little bit like that um and so I handed that in and then ACAS got on the phone to the school because they said well maybe we can reach an agreement we can reach some kind of um it wasn't necessarily a settlement then but I had to say what I wanted from it I had to say what I wanted from this process and I said the first thing I want is for training for them I want to know that this isn't going to happen to anybody else I want them to understand um you know adult neurodivergence and how that feels and how important it is to make adjustments I want to know that they're having training about their legal standing on these things and what their employees deserve and um and I want money I want you to give me money so I was like I'm I'm if now I'm going to change jobs this has pretty much put me off teaching this is my second attempt at going back into teaching and it's not worked so I'm not I'm not going to teach anymore I can't do it so therefore uh you owe me my drop in my wage you owe me my drop in my pension um and you owe me uh damages as well because of my mental health so I went in like that um ACAS then said well we'll phone them and we'll see if we can get some sort of settlement kind of um mediation on the go and ACAS aren't supposed to talk to anybody that's actually involved in it so it was supposed to be the chair of governors that would deal with that um but the executive head got on the phone to ACAS but obviously he was part of the case and he said um to ACAS no we're not settling we've not done anything wrong we're not settling thank you very much so when I was then talking through it during the grievance procedure the chair of governors and some of the governors there had no idea that ACAS had tried to settle that ACAS had tried to uh sort of start like mediation because the executive head told them no I'm not doing that and then put the phone down and didn't tell anybody else made a unilateral decision from an ego based yeah yeah so actually the the governors would have been happy to kind of settle sweep it under the carpet go but because of his ego and his pride he actually and illegally took that decision when he knew he was part of the case and he shouldn't have been involved in that decision at all he should have referred to the chair of governors um so that was quite funny in the grievance procedure where they didn't actually know that ACAS had already tried to settle and tried to mediate um so after that because he said he didn't want to settle I was like that's fine then we'll go to employment tribunal you know that's fine in that time I'd had uh I'd seen a job come up with the council for neurodiversity practitioner and I thought that is a bit of me and that it felt like the right moment so I was like well I'll put him for it you never know I'll put him for it um and I ended up having the interview just after I'd handed my notice in and then that was a problem for the school as well because they were trying to say well she'd already got this job she already knew she was leaving but that's not true I'd applied for the job my interview was after I'd handed my notice in and then I was offered the job after that so I was saying no no like that's not true um you know there's a paper trail of my application everything just look at that and so they tried to say that that I wasn't protected because I'd already put in for another job um which isn't true and then um I got the job and I thought yeah do you know what let's go let's do employment tribunal then um and it almost felt like I wasn't just doing it for me I was doing it for everyone else who's felt like this um started my new job in the January but obviously had to go in and get my stuff from school so I didn't want to see the children because it just would have been too hard um while I was off nobody contacted me I had one like best friend who worked there and she kind of said like I want to check in with you but I also know that I'm not just a friend I'm a colleague so want to check in with you but don't I don't want to talk about work like or whatever but just how are you a couple of the TAs had messaged me saying you know we miss you how are you and we love you and all that kind of stuff which was lovely but it was almost like they'd been told not to contact me because that wasn't the relationship that we'd had if someone was off there was always like a you know oh my god are you okay the whatsapp group thing went silent and it just made me think there must be another one now that I'm not part of that's a lot of that is part of them constructive dismissal kind of thing leaving you out of things so I had to arrange to go in and get my stuff so I had to talk to the executive head and um or like through admin and I said I'll come in on the PD day there's a PD day before the Christmas holidays I'll come in then and I'll and I'll get my stuff um and they said well executive head says do you want them to take it all down for you because I'd ended up when I got there not really thinking about it as a reasonable adjustment but I put up fairy lights and little lamps on the tables and stuff anyway so I was like well I'm gonna go and get all of that and I said no don't touch my stuff I'll go in and get it um and it was they said oh well you know we've got some training in the morning but um maybe um after that come in at about two o'clock um and I thought two o'clock that's weird and I thought well you know what if everyone's around I'll prepare myself and I'll I'll go in and I'll and I'll just say hello and give everyone a hug or whatever but when I got there nobody was there apart from the executive head and the admin staff um so I used my ID card to beat myself in went into the classroom and everything had been stripped and dumped into a big box and loads of the stuff that was mine was still there I'd bought like the pencil pots and water bottles for all the children and stuff because some of them couldn't afford them so I was like well I'm taking it all this is all mine so I gathered my stuff and then by the time I went to leave the building my card wouldn't work it wouldn't let me out so in the time I'd beat myself in gone into there seeing that they'd shoved all my stuff into a box like and and some of it was broken as well they'd obviously just thrown it in um and gone to leave the building they'd switched off all of my permissions so I shouted through to the admin team I am still employed here until the 31st of December um he'd obviously asked them to block it so I gave her my ID card and I said I'm still employed here until the 31st and gave that to her and then she let me out and I took my stuff and it really did feel like a huge weight but what had actually happened was when I spoke to my friend was that at the end of the training of PD day he'd told them all to go home he'd said go and have some ppa time at home go and spend time with your families which was very unusual and it was because he wanted to control who I was talking to so when I spoke to my friend she was like we didn't know you were coming in they just sent us all home they told us to go home and it was so that when I got there there was no one there for to see so I didn't get to say goodbye to anyone um obviously they had a Christmas do I knew nothing about it wasn't invited so it was all very kind of like let's just pretend this hasn't happened and even since then a lot of the staff haven't contacted me and I think I'm seen as you know oh you know this is what happened with Hollie and and obviously they've only got one side of the story which is fine I feel like you find out who your real friends are when stuff like that happens I got I got enough mate um and so I think that felt like a way off and I could kind of move on a little bit um start and as I was starting my new job it was it was a completely different atmosphere but what was happening with the case was that because the school I was working in were moving into a mat it changed it changed who was responsible for the case so that yeah that's intriguing that's intriguing okay they're moving into a multi-academy trust and they've said well now we're in this multi-academy trust um we'll use their lawyers we're part we've sort of like they've they've been enveloped by this huge and it's a huge mat as well it's huge at schools everywhere they've been enveloped into that kind of fold and they're saying um well we've run this past our solicitors and they're saying that we've not done anything wrong and that actually because we're now part of them like almost like none of that really happened now and it's not our responsibility you can't come after us because we're now part of this this mat even though it happened before they joined um so they were saying well you'll have to take it up with the local council then and I was saying but it wasn't the local council that discriminated against me it was you but the it kind of stood there their stance stood there and they were a super rich mat with their own lawyers and stuff who basically said we're washing our hands of this and we're protecting them now um so they had been the first respondent on the case they then became the second respondent and the local council became the first respondent the local council who I was still working for and so I was having to say is this going to affect my job um it all became a little bit complicated but I thought I have to keep going with it because it still happened it still happened to me um and I'd started this new role with the council in the ed psych service and the first things that I was asked were uh make a one-page profile of yourself tell me what works for you tell me what doesn't work for you um you know we do flexi time here if you need anything just ask if you do the school run that's fine you can catch up with your work later and it was just everything I'd wanted so by the time access to work actually phoned me I said I don't need any adjustments because they're all being made for me um I met and they said well if you do if you end up you get into this role you do need adjustments just give us a call and then we can we can go from there and so I was in this lovely position then of doing this lovely new job with a manager who really understood it's neuro diversity based as well it's still working with children it's still working in schools with staff parents and I feel really celebrated for who I am and the way I work like never before but still there's this case going on and anytime anything happened with the case anytime the solicitor would call me the anxiety would rise up again um and so it was obvious that it was still with me and even then talking to my manager my new manager saying I don't know how I'm going to feel when I go into schools I don't know if it's going to be triggering it wasn't in the end but she was like right well if you want me to come with you if you need any help honestly I could I have I've wanted for nothing in my new job and it just shows me it's so there's a different world out there and and this is so common with our pit pony guests it's like night and day and actually it makes it so much sadder in some respects and it does amplify how poorly you you were treated in the school so this is going on you're settling on what's then happening with the case it seemed like it was all kind of in hand then it was it every now and then I'd get a um an email or a phone call from the solicitor saying oh we just need this bit of paperwork or we need that or can you clarify this or I've written this document can you just read through it and check I've got everything right really really supportive really really good and we were building towards a tribunal now one of the things that the solicitor had to do was she had to get a judge to sort of declare that yes I am classed as disabled and I should have been protected and so I had to get uh medical evidence I had to send them um all of my sort of medical records and contact the doctors and stuff and get all that for them and the judge sort of said yes we can go ahead with this I'm happy with the evidence as it is um the paper trail and everything was so important um so I was really glad that I'd spent time doing that as well that's and while it was all fresh as well so after any meeting after any phone call I was straight onto my google drive and updating everything and it kind of ticked over to the point where I think it was going to be May this year there was going to be an employment tribunal as the school went into the mats which I think was February last year and the council took over the council I think kind of looked at all the evidence and thought you know what um rather than have to bring everybody in and um and all that we should look at uh mediation again we should look at settling again because what had happened was which was quite funny I have to look at the case that the school had made and if you name anybody in your statement your kind of uh your statement of of what it is your your problem is with them or your case you name anybody they have to be prepared to come as a witness um and the people there was one person in particular who was named in their uh rebuttal reply that kind of thing who wasn't even there one of the teachers who was quite quite close let's say to the head teacher and she she'd said that I'd had a KFC with them all before I'd left on the Friday and I was thinking I didn't have a KFC like that's what I didn't I literally I was overwhelmed I'd helped with the thing at playtime and I'd gone straight home and I was just thinking and then I thought ah because they're close he's put her into their reply so that she can come as a witness and I thought right this this is it then this is it this is what we're doing is it we're making stuff up now and so I was talking I was talking to the solicitor and I was just saying well how can I prove that that didn't happen and she was like in these cases it's their word against yours and that's all we can do it's out of our hands so as as time kind of ticked on and I think they kind of saw that I wasn't backing down that I was willing to go all the way and go to the employment tribunal and everything the solicitor said do you want me to go back to ACAS and just offer them again a settlement and I was like yeah I'd rather do that um and I said except if they want me to sign an NDA because I'd rather no money than sign an NDA so she went back to them and they ended up coming up with a figure it wasn't a lot and the only thing on the documentation was that I can't tell anyone how much it was they didn't admit fault because bearing in mind this is the council now so they it wasn't them that were at fault but they paid out a small amount and then that was that and then it was over and that was just before Christmas so you're talking it was over a year well and how are you I'm good yeah I'm good now yeah you're loving your job oh I love my job I've just been made permanent as well so we're part of a pilot project and and and this is the thing as well so now my job isn't just um supporting neurodivergent students it's talking to their families it's talking to the send co's it's talking to the teachers and how overwhelmed they're feeling and then it's and then I go around and I do staff CPD and training about supporting neurodivergent students and I always say consider your own neurodivergence this is what you're entitled to you know this this is what you know your your employer has a responsibility and and I must admit there's been one school that have asked me not to come back okay because I did a mental health survey with their staff they said they felt blindsided by it and I was just thinking if you're blindsided by your staff being honest about their mental health that's why we do these surveys so it's very very interesting but now I get to now tell them you will never take the autism the ADHD out of that child they don't need to change and anytime I work with a child I always say I'm not here to change you you're amazing exactly as you are I'm here to change the understanding and the environment around you you know there's there's even even adults there was a woman on our um work stream as as part of our our jobs and she was told the other day that she was suffering with autism and she said it's not autism that makes me suffer it's you lot it's the neuro it's a neuro like society is designed for neurotypical people it's not it's like it's like saying I suffer from ADHD it doesn't make me suffer it's the fact that everybody expects me to work in a certain way that makes it feel like I'm suffering I uh when me and Jamie were shopping for his car and he'd done something and he trundled off and I just smiled and I said to um said to the car salesman that'll be his autism and he went oh love I didn't know um I'm sorry I'm sorry love I didn't know Christ allowed to create a just giving page for him you've you've stepped into the world of raising awareness you you work closely with us it connects us at our conference for the national tutors conference second year on the roll we want you delivering a workshop and you've also formed a facebook group for educators tell us a little bit about your facebook group and what goes on there so I think from from my experience and then from going round schools it's it's really obvious that actually like Sarah say you don't have time necessarily to self-reflect because you're so busy spinning plates and everything that sometimes when I go into a school and I start talking about it they start reflecting on the children in their class and like oh so and so does that actually now it's made me think about so and so and by the end of the training they're reflecting on themselves um and so it time and time again I've spoken to educators you know tutors support staff hilters teachers SLT head teachers governors that in education they've started to consider their own neurodivergence and they haven't got a clue that they're entitled to all these things that there's a government fund to pay for things if they need them that there's um you know that they're not going to be the only one and that there's a possibility that they're being discriminated against and to know what ableism is to even know what they might want adjusting to even know what they how they feel what their needs are so I thought I'm going to start a group obviously been a member of the life after teaching since since 2020 I think since early 2020 and I just thought a lot of the stuff that people were saying on there can often be because there's possible neurodivergence that they've not tapped into um so I thought well I'll start a group and then it's become this thing where someone can say oh I know I I'm struggling I'm pretty sure I'm autistic um do I need a diagnosis to ask for this or um you know my my fellow ADHDers what adjustments have you found that really help you um I mainly just share memes okay yeah but we'll we'll we'll drop a link to your group um we'll drop a link to the group down in the show notes what's it called Hollie it's called the neurodivergent educator support group perfect perfect right me and Sarah did not think for one minute this was going to be a quick one I thought that when when did we meet up with you and Rich was it December January was that between quicksmiths wanna and we and we had a fabulous fabulous time and and you are so special to us both as friends and ex-colleagues all the whole shebang you just you're just glorious so tell us Hollie as we come to the end of the Ben Hur episode or the Spartacus episode of this epic that we've got um I know it's going to be a three-parter I can tell you that already um talk to us about your sliding doors moment since you've left the cast what are your thoughts on that one yeah well I mean there's all sorts of stuff that goes on like not just like dropping the children off at school and being able to do this that whatever but I think the main one for me was end of November just gone I'm working from home I was about to go on a school visit to a school in the middle of nowhere and I got a phone call from the school of my two eldest and they said to me Ezra my middle one he's really complaining that he's he's in pain and he's saying it's the same thing that happened to him in the summer when he was in Scotland which was when he had a partial torsion of his of his testicles where they'd kind of twisted but then by the time he got to the hospital they twisted back and so he was okay but he'd recognized this pain in himself and they phoned me and they said he's not told me what it is he just wants you to know it's the same thing happened in Scotland but it's worse so I was like right okay I'll be there now I managed to speak to Rich who was at work he's a tattooist he just finished tattooing and I was like are you on your way back can you pick up Ezra and get him to A&E and he was like yeah no problem he was there got him to A&E in seven minutes all I had to do was say to the admin of our team at EPS can you please phone this school and tell them I'm not coming this is what's happened she was like awesome go for it like let me know how it goes don't worry about anything off I went to the hospital he was already there and with it turns out he'd needed emergency surgery so within two hours he was in emergency surgery if I'd have been teaching that phone call would have had to have gone to the office the office would I would have had to go and find the head and say I need some time and so time is of the essence with that he had a full testicular torsion and anything more than four hours and at least one of them would have to be removed so Ezra could actually be infertile if I'd have still been teaching and it just made me think I'm allowed to drop everything at work and do what I need to do so my managers know I'm mum first that's what I do and each like yeah I just wouldn't have been able to do that there was there was a time where when I was teaching and they thought that Caleb my eldest had broken his arm and I went out and said he's fallen over during PE practice and they think he's broken his arm I need to uh the teachers have already taken him to A&E I need to go and get him and I remember the executive head just looking at his watch going I suppose you'll have to go then won't you and I was like yeah yeah I will um so just to be there with him I've never seen someone in so much pain it was like watching someone in labour it was awful so yeah they they came knocked him out straight into surgery absolutely fine and I was there for the whole thing and I didn't worry at all what was happening the next day day after yeah and he's had six weeks of recovery and I've been able to like my manager's just gone just cancel everything block everything out do what you need to do like nothing nothing is more important than you being there for him um I don't think I've ever heard that from a from a teacher but it is it is how the world of word work works because it's what we do it's if you listen to the previous episodes it's what happens in the real world it I don't know if it's the NHS the police teaching whatever but it does happen and yours is a journey and a half and I think if you think about it you're about to go on and still serve and and do all the things you're still in touch you're still having that impact on kids you're still helping people realise their awareness of this wonderful wonderful biodiverse neurodiverse world that we live in and it's always an absolute pleasure to spend time with you and I'm I'm sure Sarah's going to want to extend a thanks because you and Rich hold such a place in our hearts you really do. 

I love you guys I love you guys so much. Sharon's basking in it going give me more give me more so it's so Sarah sat here cringing because she doesn't know how to take love that's fundamentally what's happening here but we do love you and I love you very much. So thanks Hollie we'll drop all of your links and if people want to see you in July 2025 you'll be with us at Chestford Grange in Kenilworth so cannot wait for that. 

Ah beautiful can't wait I'm already looking forward to it just the food oh always the food and the atmosphere sorry I know I'm going on but the atmosphere was just it was just on point it was just great. Oh brilliant brilliant it is and that's the National Tutors Conference 2025 come and meet your friends so Hollie thank you and from everybody at Pit Pony and particularly on behalf of our listeners thank you very much. Hello is it any wonder she's in our life? She's she's another one who's like a triple shot of coffee I love it. 

She is isn't she and and she's been amazing she's been amazing in every single aspect of every touch point with her and when I was listening to her talk and I was thinking this is such an important episode for the ND community to listen to and ND parents know this is an episode everybody needs to listen to. Yeah and I think it's interesting because in between recording and recording this bit I've had a quick doom scroll on Facebook like you do and I've come across a post in our group where somebody was talking about their environment not being psychologically safe and that that really resonated with me with Hollie about everything that was going on meaning that that cycle and I think we don't talk about that often enough about feeling secure in our heads and and there's a lot of conversation in the group about the physical risks in school now kids being you know higher challenge higher needs the all of that sort of stuff but I don't think we talk often enough about being psychologically safe in the workplace and when you are psychologically safe in the workplace you can see it in from the way other people describe it and it's easy from the outside looking in to go whoa I wouldn't put up with that now but I would have done 10 years ago I thought that was really interesting. There's a massive parallel for me the more we've gone into these episodes in terms of how far we've come about being psychologically safe in your own home we've moved through that level of moving from thinking that abuse comes in a physical form well she wasn't battered she was a battered wife so that's why she eventually left we've moved through understanding and developing ourselves as individuals to to recognise there is as important a risk to our mental health as there is our physical health if we are in that environment and I think we're moving into a new era a new era in the workplace and that's what we're trying to do here with these podcasts even though we're early doors Sarah I think we're left so I think this is the 25th 26th recording we've sat and listened to there's no commonality between our guests they're from different parts of the country they've worked in different school environments but they're talking about the same things that are damaging people and it's like what I said to Hollie at the time I suspect this episode will I hope this episode will date yeah I do but I don't think it'll date as quickly as we think it might because it's generational new brooms isn't it who come in and go it's about waiting for that personnel change and and I think there's a there's a couple of things for me that she well there's something that she said all I wanted was a bit of professional trust and that's a common common theme and that goes back to where I've previously discussed this whole thing about forcing people to teach in a particular way with a particular slide templates and all that it does my head in but I wrote at one point because it came up in our group again in a comment somewhere this is a world where well-being policies have sections about capability and support plans because there was a comment in the group a few weeks back where somebody said they'd been given their well-being policy when they were struggling and when they read it there was a whole section it was amy mcdonald we talked about it on the podcast as well yeah but there was somebody else commented in the group similarly that that how do you talk about informal support and capability in a policy that's supposed to be supported it's nonsense utter nonsense totally it's totally counterproductive it's disabling the very thing that you are trying to do she had I think I don't know enough about but I think if they'd have swapped out the executive head and somebody who was dealing with her from the get-go suddenly went this guy's getting this really really wrong right stop let's build a team around Hollie let's let's make that first well-being call right because we understand a good hr department would have nipped that in the bud because they would have been able to say we can see what's coming over the hill I think the interesting thing thing for me knowing Hollie as we know her is that Hollie is not somebody who will accept an injustice she just won't if she's entitled to something she knows what she's entitled to she knows her rights and and she will challenge and she'll do it appropriately but she'll challenge and I and I don't know whether this happens to men because because I'm not one and but but there's something for me as well about when women challenge about it being seen as aggressive attacking all and and there's I think I've mentioned this before and I wish I could find it but I've seen a meme where it kind of goes if it's a list of things men's behaviors in the workplace and then what that would be translated to if it was a woman doing it so you know speaks their mind speaks the truth that's speaking with clarity and and being assertive but for a woman it's being aggressive and and I I think that's probably a little bit of what is what caused Hollie's situation to escalate to where it did is that she there would have been a perception about Hollie's actions and I don't want to use the word behavior Hollie took a particular set of actions to get what she was entitled to that will have been interpreted by the the and it was two men the two men who were dealing with her as behavior not actions and I think that goes to the heart of a lot of what we talk to people about it is what I have struggled with all of my life acting in a way that does not sit with my gender dear friend of mine sent me something only recently only within the last 10 minutes I am not intimidating you're intimidated there's a difference I'm not mean I'm not aggressive I'm honest and assertive and that makes you uncomfortable and it's not me that makes you uncomfortable my presence challenges your comfort I will not be less for you to feel better about yourself and that's where Hollie came from I will not diminish myself and what I am entitled to am I right or yeah what I'm entitled to in order to make you stop feeling uncomfortable because you don't understand what I'm telling you and when you've not understood it when I'm using words and concepts like neurodiversity ADHD medication because that is completely out of your comfort zone your automatic reaction is to dismiss diminish and almost do that quizzical frown what what exactly is this do you have this proof that you need well that's not acceptable behavior because you seek to understand and and there are certain things where we always talk about this there are people in the work environment whether it's teaching or non-teaching and it's an old northern expression who swing the lad they are trying to find a way out that they're not pulling the weight but when you've got somebody like Hollie and this is the bit that always gets to me she was asked to rejoin that school we've listened to podcast episodes where they have displayed themselves in a certain way in interview and then when they walk through the door why are you doing you picked me and I always go to this route when people are talking about capability at some point a head teacher put a job advert out outlining what they wanted they received and I might be going old school they received on paper 25 applications okay 25 applications they shortlisted they invited people for interview that could have even been a pre-walk around the school they then asked them to do a task whether it's a lesson or an intro exercise or put a presentation out there they shortlist again so they're really really getting to the hub of who they want in their organization with scoring cards and discussions and everything and then they go to a final interview and they pick that but that's a lengthy process that's a costly process for a school and then how is that person within that same environment at any period of their employment told they're incapable of doing that job at what point is the responsibility of the person to get the best fit in the first place you've got someone coming to an interview with balloons and clowns and puppets and you know for a fact that's going to wind you up when you're through the door don't give them the job clear clear on what you're looking for if you're running a school as that's part of the behavior management policy is to put children in high-vis vests and walk them around a prison break yard which still I'm gonna have to sit with that for a bit it's appalling if I found out that my child when he was that age was being did a chain gang oh my lord so at what point having known her knowing who she is as a person do you think she's going to be a really great fit for our school absolutely not but it doesn't mean to say that there's not somebody else who is but you've got to know your ethos you've got to know what you want to achieve and therefore if you appoint Hollie and she comes to you and she says this is what's happening to me and I think this is the difference head teachers are not frightened of tribunals and investigations because it's not their company it's not their dollar they have got a wealth of protection around them and if they cock up it's it's not as significant if the book stops with you and I don't think head teachers and senior executive head teachers genuinely believe the book stops with them because if if they'd read wouldn't have dealt with a cast no because he'd have been too bad to put wrong that's true I also think it there's interesting parallels and differences if somebody gets a a late diagnosis let's use that phrase of of a of a condition so ADHD which is protected under the Equalities Act how is that any different from somebody getting a diagnosis in their late 40s or early early 40s or whatever of of an illness of rheumatoid arthritis yeah of fibromyalgia of heaven forbid but cancer because those conditions are protected under Equalities Act as well they cause a long-term and sustained difference to a person's life and they're protected an employer take out head teachers no let's not head teachers wouldn't have treated Polly that way if it was a physical medical condition they wouldn't have done it's a bit more than a physical medical condition if it's something they understand because Auntie Joy said this or I worked with a teacher who used to have this I get it it's in my eye line of understanding so I can relate I can be sympathetic because I understand when you are going in this day and age with a neurodivergent issue or you are talking about neurodiversity if you don't understand and you are drowning anyway and you're not a confident and open person who goes Hollie I don't understand enough about this talk me through what it means she would straight away the first red flag was he didn't understand access to work and he said do you know that'll go on your record that's speaking from ignorance well there is a massive ignorance surrounding this in teaching not so much the civil service not so much the corporate world because we're ahead of the game we get it we get it we're learning it it's changing all the time people make mistakes but they're open to understanding if you're shut down based on somebody's ignorance and then gaslit into making you feel that what you've got isn't genuine isn't real the non-hollies of this world will fold and continue masking and become really really unwell I went out for lunch a couple of weeks ago with somebody who works in our business park and she works for a big government organisation and I started talking to her because I'd known her years from school and I said to her very very clumsily mate have you not looked down the route of ADHD and she went yeah right don't say anything at work I can't I'd get in so much trouble and I stopped the conversation with her because I felt I told you about it at the time didn't I because it's this it's shrouded in ignorance so episodes like what we've just recorded and then you have a responsibility to seek to understand what is happening here and actually it was happening under under the roof in my own home that that I'd raised a child for 22 years who was so autistic it was almost unbelievable and since we've since we've understood we've learned our relationship is unrecognisable and glorious and absolutely glorious because once you realise you have got members of the ND world working with you you are so gifted because she talked as well about assessing whether you are with what problems it brings to you what can you not do and flip it what can you do and I think that was a major breakthrough I don't like using the expression it's your superpower because I think that's a bit weak it diminishes it it underplays the impact that it can have on you as an individual I'm speaking personally because where I'm at my traits allow me to do certain things very very very well very well and let's just stick with very well extraordinary well and and and those those things those those ways that I work I consider to to be a a gift in the same way as when I was at school as a student my my ability to use those same skills in that setting put me right up at kind of fairly high in the year group and all the rest of it and had gifted and talented been a thing at that point of time then then that's that's probably where I'd have sat with some discomfort so yeah when people go oh it's your superpower or whatever it's actually a little bit it is because it's okay for me to think that that is my superpower but for somebody who has not got what's going on in my head and and the way I I think and feel for somebody to make that judgment on my behalf no sod off go away that's not your judgment to make absolutely not absolutely not it's appropriating somebody else's thoughts and feelings and that's not okay not your language to use either yeah it was it was interesting but I think she was so on the mark about about diagnosis and I've I've seen it personally I've seen it with children that I've worked with I've seen it with family members the whole idea of it looking at a deficit model of what what you can't do is is flawed to and I mean it it works but it's flawed and when when I came to the point of kind of my own realization I did that self-talk of but but that this can't be it because because I do make eye contact with people not consistently but I do make eye contact with people I have got a good sense of humor I can crack a joke I can I can figure out the dynamics in the room I might not respond to them but I can figure them out and so many of the the the diagnostic criteria you you don't necessarily apply and you go well well then I mustn't be she talked about the excites everybody makes eye contact so we can't be it is really complex it's complex it is really complex I thought what was interesting and what what listeners wouldn't have been able to see was Hollie's visual of the level of neurodiversity hasn't changed it's the amount of people that are being diagnosed and identified that is catching up with the level of actual neurodiversity that exists and and that's something we see it on the on the more toxic elements of of social media where people go well when I was at school in the 70s neurodiversity didn't exist ADHD didn't exist this didn't exist yeah it did but there was no name for it nobody had figured it out nobody had come up with a diagnostic tool for it we are catching up with the fact that there is difference and difference is a good thing when the difference is supported to allow those people who are different to function in a world that apparently wants everybody to be the same and she pulled in the animal kingdom didn't she and nature we are all different but that's what makes us stronger and greater going back to the noughties or probably the 2000s and 10s we had kids queuing up at the attendance office for Ritalin because that's all we understood we'll meditate these kids because all right have you got johnny last thing on a monday right well his meds are going to be so he's going to be off the wall and let's let's go let's let's go back even further something completely different i'm a left-hander who's who's 52 next week and i do everything bar right with my right hand because it was the it because i've had to learn there wasn't left-handed scissors there wasn't this there wasn't that so i everything right-handed my grandparents were my granddad and i and i know this is fact it wasn't one of granddad's tall tales used to if he picked up a pen with his left hand his left hand was smacked so he became because there's a there's a left-handed trait in my family aunties uncles my brother both of my grandparents at least one of them was left-handed but it was it was literally beaten out of them because it was seen as something wrong it is something that sits outside of what is considered typical so if you think about that walk into a restaurant and imagine it wasn't just writing imagine all your life you've got to swap over your knife and fork because and it's it really is that simple because your needs have not been accommodated and a stage further than that there is an assumption that you have your knife and fork in that way so you've constantly had to readjust your environment in order to eat and productively use a knife and fork well imagine if you went in and said would it be possible i'm not asking for you to make sure that my place table is always send but as an idea as a restaurant would it be okay to just put the knife and fork in a pot in the middle so we can both take out our knife we can take out our knife and fork as we want to now i'm using this as a really really quick example but if you've lived in a world where you've always sat down and gone rodeo cross them over you start to amplify and multiply all of that in a day in order to just simply use your left hand it's draining and it's tiring and it's and it is signaling to you that the world around you is not set up for you and that's simply what she was saying with writing and the response was well if we put your knife and fork in a pot Hollie we have to do it for no no no no no i'm not asking you to set everybody's place table the wrong way around so everybody has to cross things right i'm simply saying if you just did that for me it would make my working life the same chance as everybody else's i want parity not to be considered a leg up or special and that's what got me about Hollie's story she didn't come in with this huge list of i need this i need that i need the other i can't i need to have one lesson on one lesson off i can only own 10 children in a room her adjustments were reasonable and when you listen to Hollie talk at great length she always talks about the word reasonable they're not reasonable within that environment so the restaurant would say unfortunately we'd have to buy a load of pots to put everybody's knife and fork and there'd be a cost implication for that it's not reasonable to grant that fair enough you've had a conversation and a decision has been made that means what you've asked for is unreasonable she asked for a change in a board that would have been done if it was a kid she asked for a change in the lighting that they could have accommodated it was a kid and that nonsense of admin that she was doing on a friday morning i go back to with the greatest of respect was that even her role it's interesting because i had a conversation with uh with lord dunwood after we'd recorded and and he was asking how it went and i told him i i obviously i've talked about Hollie before now with with him and i i told him that bit you know she'd she'd asked for some adjustments at work and and he asked what they were and i told him and he went yeah it seems reasonable did they refuse and i was like yeah pretty much so i don't know it is just nonsense but yeah when you take it down to something as simple as left hand right hand it's a great analogy it really is a great analogy because things can be done so simply you can have the scissors now that are left-handed scissors you can buy cups and it's not hard to do but if you're still going at it from the point of view you're just choosing to be left-handed sort yourselves out as tie your hand behind your back until because that was what she was met with she was met with somebody who didn't believe what she was saying was real it was probably chosen it was probably attention seeking and she's a bit wacko well you brought her into that school and actually the kids would have benefited from that it's if you had you you had an emerging specialist within your school who now ironically is going around and working with other schools teaching people about the the nd community within kids teaching schools about their nd community within their teaching staff you had an expert on the books you could have been flagship yeah it could have been ahead of the curve correct massively you could have been a flagship but as is always the case if we don't fit these square pegs into our square holes we let them go and the world is a far far less rich place if that decision is made because if you've got a melting pot of so much talent and not different neuro pathways but talent because if you find somebody's talent like we do with our pit pony guests whether it's come because it's something they are naturally gifted in or it's it's because of the way their mind thinks you want a talent pool and you find that person's talent and then what you want them to do is spread it across your way of working has massively leveled me up and my way of working has leveled you up because that's what it works when you celebrate differences and i think basically we've got a belting episode there sarah that people can use as a resource to understand and as a springboard to go and seek to understand a bit further because there's one thing i'll tell you this isn't going away because it's not something that's been invented at the same time as instagram always great to spend time with the wonderful Hollie jones um always feel slightly richer and more educated having spoken to her um so belting episode as usual thank you to our listeners thank you to lady dunwood thank you to Hollie and everyone involved in the production team so until next week we will see you on the other side tra thank you so much for staying with us throughout another great episode and on behalf of myself sarah dunwood and all at the production team we appreciate your continued support if you wish to contact me directly for a support session or a clarity call for your next steps please find my link in the comments below see you soon