040 - Pit Pony Rachael Daniel - Classroom to Development Officer

What happens when a dedicated teacher realises that the career she once loved is no longer the right fit? In this episode, we sit down with Rachael Daniel, who made the bold decision to step away from teaching and carve out a new path.

Rachael takes us through the highs and lows of her transition - from the moment she knew she had to leave, to the doubts that nearly held her back, and the surprising opportunities that opened up once she took the leap. She shares how she navigated financial fears, rediscovered her confidence, and built a career that aligns with her values and passions.

Expect raw honesty, practical advice, and plenty of inspiration for anyone considering a major career shift. If you’re feeling stuck in a job that no longer serves you, Rachael’s story might just be the nudge you need.

🎧 Listen now and get ready to rethink what’s possible.

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Edited with finesse by our Podcast Super Producer, Mike Roberts of Making Digital Real

Transcript

I'd like to thank our sponsors today. Full of Beans. Full of Beans is a franchise dedicated to supporting children's physical, emotional and social well-being through engaging PE, sports and well-being programmes.

They work with primary schools and communities to help children. So, if you still love teaching but want to do it on your terms, while supporting children's physical, emotional and social well-being, and be your own boss, with a Full of Beans franchise you can. See our show notes for the links below, get in touch and have a chat with Nicky and the gang.

Thanks, Full of Beans. Hello and welcome to the Pit Pony podcast with myself, Sharon Cawley, and me, Sarah Dunwood, in which we talk to teachers from all walks of life who exited the classroom from what they thought was a job for life and thrived on the other side of teaching. Coming up in this episode... They asked me why I left.

Marking 90 books a day because we had to mark every piece of work, so that's 30 English books, 30 maths books and 30 topic books. And people would say, well, why did you just not do it? Well, because then I'd get anxiety from the trouble I'd get in, because we have regular book scrutinies. And actually, if you missed one night of doing it, that's then 60 pieces you need to mark the next day.

And we had to use the two stars and a wish method, so it's not just a quick tick and then they show it. Right, stop. What's two stars and a wish? Hello, listeners, and welcome to another episode of the Pit Pony.

This podcast is our second attempt to do this, because the first time we did this a couple of weeks ago, I will share with you. We'd got the lovely Rachael Daniel sat in our online studio, and just before we press play, Lady Dunwood said, I'm just going to nip to the loo just before we start recording. At which point, unbeknownst to us, Sarah, what did you actually do just before we started recording the first time? Yes, and the reason you passed out is because it's Sarah's internal mechanism for managing pain.

So Rachael and I sat there. We'd only met Rachael. I'd spoke to Rachael previously, and we watched Sarah pass out on screen.

So it's take two, Rachael, and thank you so much for bucking in with us again. Rachael was a born to teacher. There's no two ways about it.

She is your pit pony, should have been a lifer, because at the age of 11, started ordering a prospectus from Winchester University to be a teacher, which I hear the stories of those who line the teddy bears up, they're marking the books, but to know at 11 that you are doing that is pretty powerful. So you would think that I would be talking to Rachael, who'd maybe got a 15-year career, 10-year career, but Rachael stayed in the teaching profession from 2014 to 2015. She did a year and a little bit as a teacher.

No longer a teacher. Hello, Rachael. Welcome to the Pit Pony Podcast.

What is it you do today? I'm a development officer. A development officer, and as is always the case, we will get into that. But before we do, let's go back to that period of that young girl who all she ever wanted to do was be a teacher, and then explain why your time as an ECT was so short.

Rachael, what's your journey? So yeah, as you said, I first ordered my first prospectus at 11 years old. Teaching was something I always wanted to do. I did my year 10 work experience at the junior school I went to myself.

I taught baby ballet on a Saturday morning from I think about 11 years old as well until I was 16. I decided to do a four-year BA Ed in primary education because although people said to me, what if you don't end up teaching forever? I thought they were, you know, a bit deluded because I really did want to teach forever. I saw myself being a head teacher one day.

And then I, yeah, I started at university. I really enjoyed my first placement. My second placement, my mentor wasn't particularly supportive, but I still enjoyed the teaching.

And then my third year placement was great. Fourth year, I had the opportunity to go to Finland on enrichment placement, which is probably where the doubts really started coming. And then my final year placement, I absolutely loved and felt like I got my mojo back.

And at that point, I didn't think I'd wasted four years at all. I remember we had one of the girls on my course, her mum was a head teacher, and she came in to do an interview sort of skills workshop with us in our final year. And she said, whatever you do, don't go to an interview and say, I've always wanted to be a teacher because nobody has.

And I sat there thinking, but I really have. So yeah, and then I applied for my first job in the January of my final year of university. I saw an advert for a school in Southampton, went to look around, there happened to be a girl I went to school with myself there, thought that was lovely, that we'd be teaching at the same school.

I remember asking how many people they were interviewing. And that was probably my first red flag. But the school had a three teacher model.

And while they were starting the three teacher model, so I understood that that's why they were obviously interviewing to fill a few roles. So just explain this to me. What do you mean by a three teacher model? Could you be quite specific? Because I've not heard of that.

Sure. So the whole year group, so it's two-form entry, so 60 children and one big classroom. So there were two teaching areas and there were three teachers.

It was sort of down to us how we made that work. So initially, we didn't really have the children split. And we sort of just decide when we were planning each week, who would teach what and how we do it.

But on a side note, I actually ended up being the only consistent teacher in that class. And there were five others throughout the year. And when it got to the Christmas, we decided to do things a bit differently, where myself and another person who is also an NQT, now ECT, we would split the class in half, so have half each.

And the third teacher would be more of an intervention teacher, which would be the mornings. And in the afternoons, we'd take it in turns most of the time to teach all 60, whilst the other two teachers would read, because it was the only way we could get through listening to everyone read each week. So what I thought would be a really incredible place for my NQT year and how wonderful to learn from these experienced two other teachers in my classroom was not meant to be.

And yeah, as I said, I was the only one who was in there the whole year for a number of reasons, sort of medical, people leaving, someone broke their leg, so she needed to move, that kind of stuff. Wow. So not quite what you envisaged.

So was that school then surrounded by experienced teachers? Were you the only ECT there? Was there many new members of staff there? What was the setup from a personnel point of view in terms of the team that you'd stepped into? I was actually one of 10 NQTs. And then from memory, five of the other teachers were NQTs plus one, which then left maybe five other teachers in the school. So yeah, we were pretty inexperienced team there.

So as a result, let's just, before we dive into this any further, you've got, I don't know if that is unconventional way of doing things in primary schools, this three teacher model, it might be more common than I think. But Sarah, straight away, I think the questions that we'll probably have at this point is, so from a leadership point of view, you have a large team, but an inexperienced team, which is not necessarily a bad thing. It's not necessarily a bad thing.

So my question, Sarah, is what induction, what support and what mentoring was there? What would your thoughts go to straight away, Sarah, with this setup that Rachael's walked into? It was different back in 2014, because it was NQT year, rather than ECT two, as it is now with all of the stuff that goes on with it. But from my experience of NQT induction, when it's done well, it's labour intensive for the NQT mentor as well as the NQT. And I'm sitting and looking at those figures of 10 NQTs in a school that apparently has then got another five NQT plus one and maybe five or six experienced staff who was doing the NQT mentoring for a start off.

And how was that being done? And was it effective? Because that rings an alarm bell for me. Now, I don't know that setup. I don't know.

I don't know primary. The three teacher model, Rachael, has absolutely blown my mind. As a secondary teacher, I can't conceive of how that would work.

But I'm sure it does. But to me, it feels like there's probably potentially, I'll wait and see what Rachael says, a gap there in terms of the quality of induction and support, because that should happen throughout the first year. There's certainly where I, my local authorities where I worked, there was kind of internal observations.

There was an observation from the local authority. There was an expectation of weekly meetings. Well, if you've got 10 NQTs to do that right and to be fair to each individual, that's a lot of time.

That's a lot of time. That's almost a full time NQT mentor role to do that effectively. I don't know.

Rachael, how was it? So I think from memory, we had sort of a bit of time every so often with one of the deputy heads. And we were signed up to something in the local area where we would go to some NQT conferences, maybe once a term. Everyone had coaching from someone who was external.

And she was incredible. I think she really changed my teaching. She taught us the cutaway technique.

And I believe if I was still in teaching, I'd still be using that now. But something just to add to the mix, because it was an academy, we didn't get PPA time or NQT time ever. And that was sold to us at the interview that because you don't get that, you're allowed to book one week off throughout the year whenever you like.

And I don't know whether I'd mentioned on my application or something that I was a skier and they sold it to me that I could have my free, not free, so a cheap ski holiday during term time. And as a naive 22 year old, I thought how wonderful. And didn't realize actually losing two and a half, three hours, whatever it is a week that you'd get in PPA plus your NQT time.

Actually, that would have a bit of an effect on me. Wow, wow. I mean, just the basic maths a week off compared to the time you should have had for 38 weeks of the year.

Exactly. Doesn't quite back up. The maths isn't mathing.

Clearly, clearly. So before we come to what made you leave, how are you coping as a 22 year old with the day to day of this, with no PPA, no mentoring time? Were you managing it? Was it doable, what you were doing? I'd say it was. And I'm sure we'll go on to my second school shortly, which was completely different.

But I'd say my first school, I did have a work-life balance. Yes, I took stuff home to mark, but it was manageable. I think because of the three teacher model, one of us would plan for the English, one of us would plan for the maths for the week, resource it all.

And then whoever was teaching the topic lessons in the afternoon, they would plan and resource those. So it was just marking books every day. So yeah, I'd say I was somehow managing.

School also shut at five o'clock every day. So you obviously had no choice but to go home. And I think we were in about 7.15, 7.30. So yeah, the worst was still to come in terms of work-life balance.

But I'd say at my first school, I wasn't thriving, but I was more than surviving. Okay. But you do a year.

Why did you leave after a year? I decided I'd always wanted to move to London. I'd gone with my family one day. I think it was around April time.

That was a Sunday. I'd gone home, looked on the Guardian website, click see apply for jobs. Had a load of recruiters call me on the Monday.

And on the Friday, I went up to London for two interviews. And that was that. I was moving to London.

Okay. So it was a geographical drive that moved you from that school. Yeah.

It's not been ideal by any stretch of the imagination, but it was a geographical relocation. You go, I'm going to move to London. So tell us about the job interview for the school in London.

How did that go? So I had two. So the first one, that was the school I didn't end up taking. I was offered both.

So the first one was a standard interview. You know, the classic teacher lesson, have an interview with the head teacher. I liked it.

But then the second school, that was just an informal chat with the head teacher. She could offer me a TLR, which I thought, you know, moving to London, that would be pretty helpful. And yeah, she offered me the job there and then.

And I even said, do you not want to see me teach? To which she replied something like, no, just through my chat from you, I can tell, tell you'll be great. But that should have been a red flag. Yeah.

Yeah. Let's, let's, let's look at that. And let's talk about red flags on interviews, because what happens is a lot of the time, we've spoken to pit ponies previously and what goes on in the interview, there's a mismatch between what happens in reality.

They're either, and I think Sarah will support me here. People present themselves in interview as who they are. They're real authentic selves.

They get the job as a result of that. And then within no time at all, they've been asked to completely change who they are because that's not a great fit for the school. And then there are missed cells within interviews.

There are these, you could go skiing. It's okay. I don't need to see you teach.

We have, we've got an episode that may or may not have been out at this point. The guy wasn't allowed to look in the books. Red flags on interviews are a really, really interesting topic because no school interviews the same as the other.

They're completely different experiences. And an interview by its very definition is a two-way process. Am I right for them? Is this person right for us? But I think unfortunately what happens is you get into this competitive feel when you're on interview.

I want this job. This is a race. Sarah, what do you think about what we're hearing at the moment about the interview process within schools at the moment? I can only talk from experience of interviewing and of being interviewed.

I think when you are being interviewed, depending on where your headspace is at, the tendency to sit in a little pool of desperation because you need a job can make you blind to the red flags. And I do think that's really common. And I remember all the way back in 1995 in that kind of, that final half term of the summer term as just about to qualify, the desperation to get a job.

I would have taken anything at that point. So I think that can make you blind to red flags. I think as a new teacher, I was very naive.

You take more senior people at their word that what they say is true and don't necessarily have the experience to listen to the subtext of what is or isn't said. And again, that can make those red flags not even pop up. And actually you can end up getting a job and not realize that what you are seeing is red flags until months and months and months down the line.

And it's interesting, Sharon will laugh now because she'll know what I'll have done. I'm going to go back to your PPA thing because even just assuming that you had two hours a week PPA and an hour a week of MQT over 38 weeks, that's 114 hours that you would have been entitled to, which on a 32 and a half hour paid week, which is what a standard teacher contract is, is three and a half weeks worth of time. And, but you wouldn't, I would sit there now as 52 year old and go on your bike.

No, I want my three and a half a week. But as somebody new and not having gone through that process, you can see why that would be attractive. I think it's also very difficult because there's lots of myths about interviews, some of which are rooted in fact, from olden times in teaching, where if you withdraw from an interview, you'll be blacklisted.

If that sort of, there's always this, and we see it on the group. If I withdraw from this, if I don't go to this, if I do this, if I do that, will it reflect badly on me? So I think there's an imbalance when you go to an interview, that yes, it should be about finding a match and getting a sense of, is this right for me? But I don't think it ever is. I think the interviewee is always the one who's on the back foot.

Because I think the interviewee is the one who's expected to give more information. So do you have any questions for us at the end of the interview? Yeah. I'd like to know how many members of staff have left in the last 12 months.

I'd like to know what your attrition rate is for staff. I'd like to know what your turnover is. Would it be possible to speak to a member of staff at the school, freely and openly? You don't book a hotel these days unless you've gone on TripAdvisor, read reviews.

We gather information from not the hotel itself that we're booking into, but wider information. You know, yes, we've got Ofsted reports. But actually, one of the things that would help in the decision-making process is something as simple as how many members of staff have left with a compromise agreement, a settlement, an NDA involved.

Those are the kind of red flags that I've always said that that information should be out there. It's held by the unions. It's held by the school.

Straight away. I mean, going back to your first school, did you know that there would be in that building possibly 15 NQTs? No, I obviously knew they were recruiting to get that third teacher in each class. But yeah, it didn't cross my mind that everyone else would be an NQT.

I thought I'd be surrounded by a sea of experience and how wonderful that would be for my first year. Because if you don't ask that question, they're certainly not going to offer it. So there is more.

The fact-finding, we don't have a great deal of opportunity to ask the right questions. And at 22, why would you ask that question? Because you probably don't even know what a settlement agreement is. Can I speak to the person who held my position beforehand? Would that be possible to do that? You know, in your exit interview with that person would... Because could you imagine if that was the case? We would see... And if that was the case, maybe schools would treat people differently because they would know there was a knock-on effect in their recruitment process.

So I think interviews... And Sarah was absolutely right. There are urban myths. I've accepted this position verbally.

Am I now duty-bound to keep it? Because sometimes, I don't know if it's like this anymore, but you can be offered a job and you have to accept on the spot. In the world of work, that doesn't work like that. You don't have to accept it there and then.

You're offered a position, you're given time to consider it, you then accept it. And people end up in dilemmas because they say, there's the job I really, really want, but the interview for the first... May backups come first? I don't know. So interviews are a very, very interesting position to be in because that's where I think a lot of our bad decisions are made by A, what we don't ask, B, the red flags we ignore, and C, what's presented to us on the day that doesn't quite pan out.

So you go for this second interview, the head teacher doesn't be your teacher. Do you get a tour around the school? Do you get to have lunch with the staff? No, so this is going to sound like another red flag. The school is part of the federation, so the head was head of three schools.

So I actually went to a different school. It wasn't even one that I was going to be working. I did know it was a different school I'd be working at, but yeah, I guess she was just at that one that day.

So that's where I went. Why do you think they didn't want to see you teach? On reflection now, Rachael, why would you not want to see somebody teach when that is the bread and butter of what you're employing them to do? I really don't know. And the fact it was around April time as well, it's not like, you know, we're final week of July and they're just desperate for anyone.

They did see me teach on the sort of meet the teacher day. I was sent some planning, and I think it was a maths lesson I taught. And again, another red flag, and this is where I probably should have walked away.

I remember opening the document that the other year two teacher had sent her planning for, and she was an experienced teacher, yet the planning was about 10 pages long for the maths plan for the week. And having just, you know, finished my final placement where we were told we didn't have to plan on the university performers anymore, whereas almost a script, which I didn't agree with anyway, because I'm a big believer of if you're a good enough teacher, you shouldn't need a script to teach from. But this was just something else to the point where, you know, I could probably give it to my grandmother, and she would have been able to go in and teach it.

Wow. OK. Red flags.

They're waving large. There's a field of them blowing in the wind at this point. But you've moved to London.

This is great. This is, you've got, what was your TLR for, by the way? Well, it was for PE, but it was more for organizing the sort of extracurricular clubs. The PE lessons were taught by someone external, sort of like more PT kind of style.

So yeah, I was mainly sorting out all the extracurricular clubs. So it was a lot of admin at the start of the year, getting all of that organized. And to be fair, what you've just described is an admin role.

Yeah. You were given a TLR for an admin role because that job could have been done by a coordinator sat in an office who's available in the day to make phone calls, to check in with people. OK.

How long did you last at this new school in London? And see, I started in September and I left at the end of the Christmas term. So you lasted one term? Yeah. What went so catastrophically wrong in probably 16 weeks? What happened? I had absolutely no life.

So I was normally in school by seven at the latest, often one of the last teachers in. I try and leave by about six o'clock to come home. And I was just wasting away because I didn't have time to eat, which I always think sounds so ridiculous even now when I say it out loud.

And it takes a minute to eat a cereal bar. But I would honestly say I didn't have time to eat my breakfast until about, you know, 3.30 once the children had gone home sometimes. I just got to the point where I was existing.

I'd go days without showering because the workload was just so much. And there was no point living in London, what I think is the greatest city in the world, when you can't enjoy London life. I think it was just before half term, my mum came to visit me one day and she just looked at me and just said, you're not OK.

And I just absolutely broke down. From this, maybe a few weeks in, I'd phone her every Sunday night in tears saying, I just, I can't do this. I can't go in tomorrow.

But I'd always, I'd go in. But yeah, it was just, I always find it hard to believe that I was that person when I'm so happy now. So listening to this, let's assume somebody's fallen onto this podcast who's not a teacher, who doesn't understand, who cannot process that kind of information you've just given us.

What took so much of your time? Because teachers by definition can be people pleasers and perfectionists. So are they a victim of their own workload? I needed to get it right. It was my own fault.

I wanted everything perfect. I wanted this. What were you doing? What was being asked of you, Rachael, that took up at least a 12-hour working day and then and some in an evening? What were you being asked to do that took up so much time that you had your breakfast at half three in an afternoon? I think marking would be the top thing.

And that's why I still tell people now and they ask me why I left. Marking 90 books a day because we had to mark every piece of work. So that's 30 English books, 30 maths books, and 30 topic books.

And people would say, well, why did you just not do it? Well, because then I'd get anxiety from the trouble I'd getting because we had regular book scrutinies. And actually, if you missed one night of doing it, that's then 60 pieces you need to mark the next day. And we had to use the two stars and a wish method.

So it's not just a quick tick and initial. Right. Scott, what's two stars and a wish? And so two... Jesus.

So two things they had done well, and then a wish is what they could do to improve. But that would normally need to be something that your class would then respond to. So for example, maths, say you were doing column addition with two digit numbers and you would, maybe the wish would be giving them a maths question with column addition with three digit numbers to see if they could extend themselves.

So a bit of a sort of assessment for learning. It's like what went well and even better if, isn't it? It's that sort of... I think Sharon, I think you'd exited prior to this nonsense starting because we had similar in a secondary setting. I was gone by 2013.

So this is the timeline of where I've come out. The timeline of marking of, and I feel your pain completely with the books, the timeline of all books must be marked in a secondary setting within a two week window with everything in that book in that two week window marked. The book scrutiny is the requirement to do detailed marking on at least one piece of work in that fortnight.

And if you were the poor RE teacher or geography teacher who was one of you and you had all of the kids in year seven and all of the kids in year eight, then that was hundreds of books every two weeks to mark deeply. And it became a real, a very real thing in terms of workload. And I think it's still there in some schools, despite the fact that the big O have said that they don't need that.

But it became a stick in terms of monitoring and quality assurance. If your books weren't marked, that was a reflection of you as a teacher. It didn't matter whether the kids were absolutely flying.

If the books weren't marked, it became a reflection of you as a teacher. Brief interlude, dear listener. Couple of questions.

Are you a tutor or even a pit pony considering tutoring? And do you fancy getting in the room with myself and Sarah Dunwood learning about the wonderful world of tuition? Then why not join us at the National Tutors Conference hosted by Conexus Tuition on the 29th of July, 2025. It's at Chesford Grange, Kenilworth. Links to the tickets are in the show notes below and we will both see you on the other side.

So just looking at this now, Rachael had 450 pieces of work to mark a week and come up with something at the end to challenge them. So it's not just marking, because to me, there's a difference between marking and assessment. Okay, marking is what it should be by the definition of the word.

You are putting a mark to show you've checked that that work had been done. But now, not only are you marking it, you're having to put an assessment in it as well. And you're having to set a challenging question or a thought.

And then obviously you're probably having to make a note of how they've done on that piece of work. And then on top of that, half a term, there's probably then an additional assessment on top of that to track how they've done at the end. That's absolutely not.

And then planning the stuff you're having to deliver to do the marking. Yeah, and sometimes changing it. And then on top of that, coordinating the after-school curriculum as well.

What were you on? About 75 grand a year. I wish. Yeah, and is it any wonder they got you in? Didn't need you to teach.

They don't want you to. They're not bothered about the teaching. They just want to know if you can come in and sustain that workload, because guess what happened? By Christmas you'd gone and somebody else was being brought through the door.

Now, could you imagine if that other person asked the question, whose class am I taking over? Why did they leave? Can I speak to them? And I guess the answer would have been no, because they would have been presented with a skeleton and quite little anyway. And my size eight trousers were literally falling down because I'd lost so much weight. And when I'm out... When did you give your notice form? October half term.

October, you'd done half a term. What did they say to you? What did they say at that point? I think they had called me in and I remember breaking down to her and she just sort of said like, why didn't I let her know I was feeling like this? And I still stand by the fact that that was the way the school was. And there was nothing really that could have changed.

And I see it often on the Life After Teaching Facebook group when people say about workload and things and people say, you know, just go around your classroom and live mark. It's really not that easy. I had a lot of low ability children.

My TA was either with my high achievers to try and push them on or with my low achievers and whoever was with who the other one was with the other group. There was no time to walk around the classroom and live mark. And I will never forget marking my last ever book.

I cried my eyes out, but it was tears of happiness at the thought of never having to do it again. From the kid who sent off for a prospectus in year 11. From the kid who said, I'm doing a B.Ed. From the kid who sat there and went, I have actually only ever wanted to be a teacher.

And you did, one year and a term. And I'm assuming it wasn't the kids. It wasn't the subject.

It was the nonsense that sat around you that you just could not sustain. Were you frightened when you resigned? Were you in this emotional, what on earth am I going to do now? I've got a degree that's just teaching. Where was your head at at that point, Rachael? I was incredibly lucky and will forever be grateful that throughout university, I worked a UK-based summer camp.

And after a bad day of just, you know, overwhelmed by the workload before the October half term, I'd got in my car and I emailed Richard, the owner of the summer camp. And I just said, I don't suppose you have a full-time job. And just by chance, they were in a position to offer me one.

So yeah, otherwise, I don't know what I would have done because I was in London having to pay rent. I had a car on finance at the time. So yeah, I'd say the summer camp well and truly saved my life because I was just completely and utterly physically and mentally broken.

And did the headteacher just let you go? The headteacher didn't reflect on your feedback, change practice, nothing? No, nothing. And I remember a moment where it was after I'd had it in my notice, the head had just been on a course and she'd introduced a whole new assessment scheme where each child had a wad of paper with all the different things and they needed to achieve that we were meant to start regularly highlighting. And another teacher came in to check on me after the staff meeting.

I'm one of those people. I can't really hide my emotions very well. My face often says it all.

And she came in because she said she just knew I wasn't okay by my face. But see, I knew I wasn't going to have to do this for long because I had had it in my notice but the thought of still doing it for half a term. And I think that links to probably one of my only regrets in life is not being signed off for that last half a term.

I don't know how I got through it. And friends were saying, you know, like, you're leaving, Rachael, just don't mark the books, don't hand in your planning because we used to have to email in our planning for the weekend as well to get feedback. But this is typical.

We've heard of people who've handed in their notice, they're broken. I don't know if you've ever listened to Hannah Jones's episode where she talks about leaving her school under the most horrendous set of circumstances and considered going back to finish up. I just want to take you back at this point.

You've done four years to train you to be a teacher and prepare you for the world of work. Was nobody at your school inwardly, were you not going, this is wrong, I need to contact my union, I need to know how to say no. Were you aware of any rights sitting around you? Was there anything that supported you as an ECT to go, no, I'm not doing this, it's unreasonable.

I'd say at the time, no, obviously now I'm aware there were and I was part of a union, but I think I was just so broken and exhausted. I didn't have the energy to do anything about it. And people said to me, why don't I try a third school? And as much as I think most schools have their issues, I do believe there are good schools out there and I'm working on now in a non-teaching role, but I did not have the energy to fill out an application, go and look around another school, go for the interview process, I just, I couldn't do it.

And I also think as well, when you've started something and the pressures come on so quickly and it almost feels normalized around you because you're not being picked on, this is what all the teachers are doing. Two things happen, you haven't got time to take a step back and reflect and get a plan of action and find a solution because you're too busy with your 90 pieces of mark in a night, you're planning, you've not got time to eat a cereal bar, you haven't got time to strategize what are your rights and is this okay? And if everybody else is doing it, you then gaslight yourself into thinking there's something wrong with you because they all seem to be doing it. Yeah.

And in myself and Sarah's experience, it takes external factors like your mum coming down at half term, this isn't right, it's when people outside of the classroom are telling you, listen to those people because you're not going to necessarily find the solution within the place where the problem is. So, you leave at Christmas, you move into the world outside of teaching, did you have a grieving period? Did that young girl grieve that she was never going to be the head teacher she thought she was going to be? Yeah, I think so. And I felt this immense pressure to justify to the whole world why I made my decision.

I wrote a really long blog post which I still share on LinkedIn now every year on my anniversary of leaving to raise awareness. And I still find it quite hard to read and it's that gutting thing if I always thought I was going to do it. I, you know, without blowing my own trumpet, I was a good teacher.

And yeah, I just think it's sad that the profession didn't look after me enough to keep me in there. And it worries me who will be left by the time I have my own children. And, you know, you can't, I can't fix everything.

And I honestly don't think in my lifetime that enough changes will be made to ever make me want to even consider going back. Wow, wow. Okay, so let's, have you anything you'd like to ask Rachael at this point, Sarah, or are you happy to segue into the thrival element of her story? Yeah, because you mentioned then that you're still working within education, you're still working within a school.

Yeah. Where are you at now? What are you doing? Tell us all about it. So I am a development officer at Canford School in Dorset.

So it's an independent school, starts at year nine and goes up to upper sixth, year 13. I'm in my fifth year and I just absolutely love it. It's a world I had no idea existed.

I was state educated myself. Long story short, after working for the summer camp job for about four years, I decided if I didn't have a gap year then and travel the world, I'd probably never do it. But unfortunately COVID made it come to an abrupt stop.

So I got a job in Tesco just to keep me busy. And one day I was doing my picking for my, you know, everyone's home shopping. And I remember seeing a WhatsApp come through on my watch from my friend who had seen an advert for my now role saying, I've just seen this and I think this is right up your street.

So I had a look and unfortunately it was advertised as a part-time role. And I thought, you know, I'm not a mom or anything like that. Like I can't have a part-time job at my age.

And then a few days before the deadline, I thought, well, I've got nothing to lose. I could maybe do Tesco on that just to see how it goes. So I applied, got the job and I just feel like I'm in this whole new world.

It's not perfect private education, but it's so different. I'm in a team of two. I have the most wonderful boss and every day my job is different.

I've been to really incredible venues through events. I've met lots of wonderful alumni, heard their stories, members of the school community. I get to do things like go to Henley Royal Regatta every year.

I've watched Old Canfordians or one of ours in a national theatre production just as part of my job. Yeah, I just absolutely love it. And we fundraise anniversaries in our team as well.

And seeing the difference it makes to quite literally transforming lives is just incredibly rewarding. Oh, I can see, as is always the case, Sarah and I can see you light up. Isn't it interesting that in some respects the TLR you were given, which was to coordinate extracurricular activities within a school was just a bolt on at one point that you had to do with an insurmountable workload.

You've stepped into that world, haven't you? You've stepped into the world of organising. So your role, say, is development officer. And people might sometimes look at that and not know what a development officer is.

Did you need any experience to do that? What were they looking for? Tell us about the interview. How did that fare for you? So on the job description, professional fundraising experience, I'm pretty sure was an essential criteria. But I thought I'm just going to go for it.

I don't have any professional fundraising experience. But yeah, I still got the job. I was asked about my professional fundraising experience in the interview, and I just thought I'm going to be honest here and say I don't have any.

I was also asked why I left the teaching profession. I'm incredibly grateful that a family member of my boss had left for pretty much the same reasons as me. I decided to be honest.

And I sort of a minute into my explanation and she said, it's okay. I know where you're going with this. You don't need to say anymore.

See, I had two interviews for it. The first one was an online one because it was right in the middle of COVID. So I was sitting at home with a dress on, but still had my pyjama bottoms on.

And then I was invited in for an in-person one where I had to do a task, which was planning a sort of community event, an online event as it was COVID times. Had a tour of the school and I just fell in love with it. Hello, loyal listeners.

This is a little plea on behalf of myself and Sarah to donate a few pennies to the Pit Pony Podcast Production Fund. Sarah's taken to selling her cure records on eBay to fund the episodes. So see the buy us the coffee link in the notes below and save her collection of Robert Smith's warblings for us, will you? Thank you.

Perfect, because what you've actually explained there, two interviews, and that's how I remember things going. When I was in teaching, you could be invited for a tour of the school. You could meet staff.

You had a look round. You could meet the department with other candidates as well. So actually, when that was happening, the department and your colleagues got to meet new candidates and then you'd be invited back.

You could teach a lesson and then you'd make it through to the afternoon and that kind of thing. Like a staged process of selection. So to know yet again, you had two bites of the cherry.

And interestingly, we're brutally honest with them. It's something we say to our pit ponies all the time. Just because you don't actually have that experience, don't let it stop you.

Don't only apply for a job. You can do 100% off. And out of interest, people will very often, our pit ponies will go for the job below the one they actually get offered.

Because having been a teacher has got such kudos when it comes to applying. So how long have you been at the school now? I'm in my fifth year. Going nowhere.

No, I actually took on a tutor group in September through Choice as well. Just to be a bit more involved with the current people. So I've got eight tutors who I meet with once a week, which is really lovely.

Oh, that's fantastic. Fantastic. So that brings us nicely.

With everything that's gone on in your world since you left teaching, I'm going to be very interested to ask you the question, Rachael. What is the sliding doors moment you've chosen to share with our listeners today? And so in 2023, it was our school centenary year and we had a big garden party, sort of crumbs in the park style. Over 2000 people came, which was just incredible to know that my boss and I had organised that.

And I just remember standing behind most of the crowd, the main sort of school building, which is just, it's sort of like Hogwarts, is the backdrop. And just thinking, A, we've organised this, what an achievement. And B, seeing that people can have a positive relationship with schools.

To have so many old Canfordians come back to their school, people from all around the world. I think it was just really reassuring that schools can be happy places and I can't let my experience tarnish sort of my opinion of all schools. So yeah, sort of professionally and emotionally, it was a pretty special moment for me.

Oh, that's lovely. And what a lovely, lovely way to end. Thank you so much for sharing that.

And even though we've talked about the ECT or NQT experience that took place 10 years ago, I think a lot of what you said in this episode, Rachael, is very, very relevant and still important for younger teachers who are entering the profession. We don't generalise on the pit pony, but what we do see in our group is that there are still some issues facing our younger and newer members of the profession today. So I hope it didn't bring up any bad memories or any trauma, but thank you so much for sharing with us today.

Thank you so much for ending on such a beautiful note about how amazing schools can be when we get it right. So on behalf of myself and Sarah, thanks ever so much, Rachael. Thank you for having me and letting me share my experience.

Well, despite ending on a on a really high and reflective note from Rachael, I couldn't help feel sadness that she wasn't the head teacher of the school. There's some real... I don't know. How were your thoughts on that one, Sarah? I think it's an interesting one because when it felt quite gentle, you had to really listen to what she was saying because it was the story that we hear, but it was delivered because Rachael's so lovely in a really kind of gentle way.

So you really had to dig into this and in the interim when I went to make a cup of tea, I was actually thinking how furious I was. And I know it was 11 years ago, but I'm absolutely certain it's still going on. This stuff to do with marking and planning and the bit that really made me angry was this whole thing about emailing in planning so you could get feedback on the planning.

And with the greatest of respect, as a subject specialist, I'd be absolutely furious if somebody was giving me feedback on my planning about my subject specialism when they're not a subject specialist. That's where more and more as we go through these stories with people, I am increasingly angry and I know we don't generalise, but equally there needs to be a calling to account for this level of nonsense that some leaders are imposing on teachers. Let them teach.

You do not need to see their planning. You do not need to scrutinise their books week in, week out. Kids work does not need to be marked.

And actually I go right the way back to when I was a kid. All I wanted from a teacher, the bit that made my day was a big tick and a this is great or a very good or excellent, didn't need anything else. Because as a teacher, the marking, there is value in marking because it lets you see what the kids have done.

But they don't need that written feedback. They need you as a teacher then to go, oh, do you know what kids? When I was marking your books, loads of you made the same mistakes. So we're going to go over that today.

That's what marking's for. Two stars and a wish. Can I just stop you there? Because the marking and the planning, the two very, very different things.

He received a plan that she said straight away. It was so detailed. My grandma could have taught that script.

OK, so why are we employing qualified teachers if what you are giving them is basically to act as a conduit between another teacher or... So it's that detail of planning because actually what the grandma couldn't have done was to deliver that lesson and go, I know in my liver that they've not understood what I'm saying. I only listen to... I need to listen to the murmur and the hub in this room. They don't know what they're doing.

I know what productive hum sounds like. And in that productive hum, I've got eyes in my head. I know who's clueless because I know those kids and I know that kid in that back corner is masking and pretending that they can annotate this piece of poetry.

I've also listened to the Q&A I've done in that part of the lesson as well. And when I have looked for hands up, who's volunteering information, and then when I have looked across that room, I know who's not getting it. That doesn't appear on a plan.

No, it doesn't. And the danger... So it's what is a plan, isn't it? A plan for me, I used to be able to plan in a way that my planning fitted in the section for my lesson in my planner. My key points, what were the key things that I needed to get in that lesson? Any key kids that I might need to keep an eye on in terms of exactly what you've just talked about.

But I could get into that because I knew my subject. I had my resources. I had the wider stuff sat around it.

I knew exactly what I was going to deliver. And the worry for me is that when you have plans that are tantamount to a script, a script you follow a script you do not deviate from. That's the whole point of a script.

In a Shakespeare play, you follow the script. You do not go off... With stage directions. Yes, correct.

You don't improvise. So the scripts for me can actually almost be disabling because yes, you might have asked this question at two minutes and 32 seconds. And actually, if you are... And I'll go back to me being a new teacher, a young teacher, very naive, very... Oh, well, if one kid's answered the question, then they must all know.

And it was only for the impact of really good mentors and genuinely good feedback about lessons that worked really well. Did you see how that impacted on those children? Not punitive lesson observations. Scripts can be really disabling and stifle creativity and actually don't allow early stage teachers, regardless of their age, to really lean into learning their craft because it is a craft.

It is a craft. It is. But what's more, Sarah? I don't... Because I know when you said it can fit into that one bar on my teacher's planner because it was either ring bound.

It is, say, teacher's planner 1997. But because I was an English teacher, I would teach year seven four times a week, right? If somebody had handed me a prescriptive scheme of work with, say, 16 lessons in, what they would not have accounted for... So let's take my year seven. I might have had them period two on a Monday, period six on a Tuesday, period one on a Thursday, period four on a Friday.

I'd only have to look across my timetable and go, right, the majority of my learning is going to be centred around I've got them first thing, golden brown. That's when we're having the slog lesson, right? If I've got them after PE on a Wednesday, half of them are arriving late because they've lost the ties. They're through the roof anyway.

They're cold. I didn't just take this prescriptive scheme of work. I factored in my learning environment as well because that's what it allowed me to do.

So we might do a guided reading session on a Friday afternoon or if we were doing a piece, if we were doing a literature text, you guess when I was showing that film, it was going to fit around. You're handing someone a script with lesson one, two, three, four, five. You're taking out all of my knowledge that made it work with those kids.

And I don't want to harp back as though we're the dinosaurs of these halcyon days, but it didn't half make a difference when we were allowed to do stuff like that. Yeah, you could teach. And again, I know there's lots of teachers who are in environments who can teach.

And we sit in an echo chamber of teachers who aren't being allowed to teach. But the reality is, there's a lot of teachers who aren't being allowed to teach. And then I go to what Rachael said about that she doesn't believe in her lifetime that there's going to be sufficient change to allow the next generation of children and the generations afterwards to experience teaching in the way that it should.

And that's devastating. That's devastating. It is for the kids because let's have a look what happened to Rachael when she took that second job.

That head teacher, how they justify their behaviour is always, I want the best for the kids. The progress for these kids. So by saying those books are marked, those plans are double checked, we're getting the very best for our kids.

OK, I get that. I understand. That's your rationale.

Well, actually in a school, the school before when you've got so many ECTs, you've got NQTs plus one. And in her second school, what that draconian marking and planning policy actually achieved was one thing. You lost the consistent classroom teacher that those kids could have had for at least one year or two years.

You lost a member of staff and you're not telling me they're in the time because let's face it, she was ushered in through the back door, right? So what if they can't replace Rachael? They've got supply. It's a supply teacher going to be taking home 90 pieces of work a night. No, it's actually not going to get done.

So you might as well have alleviated Rachael from it and kept the bloody classroom teacher in there in the first place. And that comes to something that she said, doesn't it? That the head teacher had said to her, why didn't you say anything to me when she broke down with her? And Rachael's perspective was, well, you're not going to change anything that's causing it. You're not going to change the culture.

I mean, that blew my mind, partly because I'm a sloth, that she was saying I was the latest one to get there around 7am, which means that there were other people there from silly o'clock in the morning and that she's leaving at six. That's cultural. That is cultural within a school and it is not healthy to create a culture where people feel that that is normalized.

But also Rachael was absolutely spot on. What point in telling somebody that the fact that I've got to work 90 books, mark 90 books a night is the thing that's crippling me because is that head teacher going to say, well, then let's change the marking policy then. Let's make it once a fortnight.

No, they're not. No, they're not. And it's rage inducing because in the time she was there as part of her exit after six weeks, she sat in a staff meeting and they'd layered another amount of work on her.

Yeah, and I know exactly what that was. And I think it was called APP because it got applied in primaries and secondary. So basically every year group's program of study was broken down into micro objectives.

Every single little thing that they needed to learn and then you would have to highlight it to say that it'd been delivered. Then you'd have to put a color code to say whether the child was secure or not or whatever. And you'd have to do that for every single kid.

And I remember it being introduced in one of the schools that I was working in and just wondering on what day of the week do I do this? Because I've got 150 kids that I teach and I've got to do one of those for every single child in secondary, never mind for a primary teacher who's got 30 kids and it's there for maths, it's there for English, it's there for the science things, it's there for all of the different schemes of work. It was ridiculous. And it became, as with everything in education, can you tell them on a soapbox today? Everything becomes the next thing that needs to be done and it's the silver bullet and it's going to be the thing that makes children learn even better and faster.

Does it though? It just breaks teachers. It breaks teachers and it means that teachers can't teach in a way that they know works for the children that are in front of them. I cannot tell you over 25 years that I taught, let me pick a topic out in business studies, that I taught balance sheets with my kids in the same way.

I never taught it the same way year to year because I knew what was happening with my children in my class. It's infuriating and it's driven over the last decade probably thousands if not tens of thousands of teachers out of the profession who are highly skilled, excellent practitioners who just could not cope with the level of ridiculous bureaucracy that was being created by people sat in their offices not teaching. 100% Sarah.

It's that idea that if you're working in the NHS I'm only going to take any form of legislative change or policy change from a brain surgeon, not a politician. And it is sad because had she not have left when she did at the age of say 22, 23 when would she have developed a relationship? When would she have fostered friendship groups in London? If she wanted to, if that had been her path when would she have started a family? When would she have even got a dog? You know, where was the room in all of that for Rachael as a graduate? I look at as a person who's just graduated to go this is my life, this is my world and I have a job that leverages me all the opportunities. So if you think about it, she did a four-year degree based solely on education.

She did another year and yeah, it's great. She's still working in a school. She's happy she went into summer camps and Rachael got out after a year.

There are many who are not. There are many who are still trying other schools and big issue for another day but I loved that episode. I think it's important that we don't just focus on pit ponies who've done 25 years in or 10 years in or the ones who were losing early doors and it's important to remember as well that an early years careers teacher could be somebody who's gone in at the age of 37.

They don't have to be 22 year old graduates who know no different because what I would ask is if you're listening to this episode and you have friends or your partner is not in teaching but they have a career or they have a job, ask them what their induction process was of the job they started. Ask them when they were new what training they had to understand that job and I bet it wasn't turn up on the first day here's your class, here's your pigeonhole, crack on and I'm going to leave you with this and if that head teacher who rolled up what should have been a hundred and odd hours worth of planning, preparation time and mentoring meetings genuinely thought a week off was the right thing to do by that person then that's a conversation I'd like to have one day. Okay, thank you for your time Lady Dunwood and thank you to Rachael for holding space for us.

It's been another wonderful episode of the Pit Pony. Hope it's enriched many of our listeners lives. So right mate, I will see you on the other side.

Ciao. Thanks for staying with us during another great episode of the Pit Pony podcast. On behalf of myself, Sarah Dunwood, Mike Roberts at Making Digital Real, we wish you all the very best and we'll see you soon.

If you wish to contact me directly for a support session or a clarity call for your next steps, please find my link in the comments below. See you soon.