053 - Pit Pony David Myers - Classroom to Student Support Officer at Durham University - Part 2

In Part 2 of our conversation with David Myers, we pick up at the point he finally walks away from teaching - and follow what happens next.

From exploring tutoring, supply work and student support roles, to landing a new job at Durham University (in the castle, no less), David reflects on rebuilding his confidence, recovering from burnout, and rediscovering joy in his work. He shares what true leadership and professionalism really look like, and how one compassionate team changed everything.

We also get that Sliding Doors moment – a beautiful story involving a formal dinner, Dumbledore vibes, and an Instagram post that stopped him in his tracks.

This is an episode about healing, reclaiming your spark, and what it looks like when someone finally feels seen, safe and valued at work.

💛 It’s also about hope - and what’s possible on the other side of teaching.

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Transcript

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Hello and welcome to the Pick Pony podcast with myself Sharon Corley and me, Sarah Dunwood, in which we talk to teachers from all walks of life who exited the classroom from what they thought was a job for life and thrived on the other side of teaching. Coming up in this episode. And the final question, how do you deal? It's a stressful job, how do you manage your welfare? And I knew at that point there was a warm relationship and I don't dare say it. 

Which one member of the panel says I've already written it down mate, you've got to say it now. Yeah, yeah. Which is saying I'm in a safe space.

Welcome back. Well, this is it, he's out. He is out. 

He's left for seven years, the journey that we have had with him. Never quite got to do the PhD, never quite got to do the educational research. He's watched the Pick Pony, he's done his figures, he's left with some pride. 

He's gone out, he's thrown a couple of kidney punches on the way out, which I am more than happy to have heard about. So what's next for you, David? You're out, you've left, what are you doing? I'm just going to gently clarify, I haven't got to the PhD yet. It's on the cards, there's not a PhD that I'm yet aware of. 

And if there's any listeners that happen to have an amount that would be funding, I'm more than happy to get in touch. But I'm out and I'm feeling relieved. There's a few teachers on the day that came to celebrate with me privately, but it was really sweet of them, it was really lovely.

And many of them have kept in touch, many of them have become good friends since. And we were sitting in the pub saying, okay, what's the plan? I said, for now, sleep, focus on myself. And I gave myself about two weeks just to recover. 

And at the end of that two weeks, I thought, well, supply teaching and the tutoring, that's the safety net. It will work, it'll be quite quiet in September, but I'm getting paired up until the end of August. So I'm going to save my time. 

And I was looking at working in data, I was looking at remote jobs. I was looking at jobs in the universities around student support. I was looking up any training apprenticeships for say, counselling and mental health. 

And the world was my oyster, it was scary. I was reminded of those days where someone said, you can do anything you want, and going, that's quite a lot. Could somebody come and narrow that down for me, please? This is quite intimidating. 

But it was okay. It was as daunting as it was exciting. And September came around, and I'd signed on with, I can't remember which agency.

But they said, come along, let's see what you've got. And they started me off actually, for the first week, they said, I think the first two weeks, we're deliberately going to change the schools that you're in. If we've got somewhere for you, we're going to put you across five different schools for two days. 

If you really can't stand it, back out. That's absolutely fine. If you feel comfortable, let us know. 

So that was a really interesting two weeks, a really eye-opening two weeks, if you don't mind me saying. Going to some of the old school high schools that had their own character, their own style, that retained those old ideas, bringing in some of the new elements that the academies have found to work. Great. 

And then I went into some of the academy trusts. And I would say my eyes were opened, but they were open to exactly the same thing. These carbon copied lesson templates. 

I went from maths to history to French. Don't ask me why the maths teacher was covering a French lesson, but I was. And every lesson template in these academies was the same. 

The behaviour management in, say, Sunderland was exactly the same behaviour management system in Middlesbrough, in the fancier end of Newcastle. And I was stunned. I was I was genuinely excited when I went into a school and they said, look, the behaviour is a bit rough.

And the head teacher said, look, this is the journey. This is where the school's at. This is where we've been. 

I'm warning you now that the behaviour is not going to be easiest if you can keep them in your chair, in the chair. Fine. That was the best day I'd had in teaching in years. 

I was getting to know them, having a laugh. And after about five, 10 minutes of just telling them who I was, why I was there, being excited to see them saying, look, I'm really sorry, folks. I do kind of have to try and teach you some maths if I want to get paid. 

Can we do some of that? Oh, yes, no bother. A few dissenting voices. I don't get it. 

We'll talk to me. What? And that was exciting again. I enjoyed it so much being in a school where, OK, fine, I wasn't expected to deliver the perfect lesson, but I could get to know them and I could give them some things that our time together was valuable, that they were valuable, and I was willing to give it a go with them.

And then the next day, I'm back into an academy and, right, starter, main, task. OK, in comes somebody now to shout and scream at them because they've dared to ask me how I'm doing or tell me, God forbid, that I'm quite cool. I've never thought I was cool, but apparently, apparently someone thinks I am. 

But isn't that interesting, David and Sarah, that what we do is, you've done something quite magical for me there over two weeks. You have gone into different schools and you have had such a different experience. The children get a different diet, different behaviour management policies. 

But we talk about teaching as if it's the same for everyone. We talk about British secondary schools as if they are the same, not teachers who understand. But to those who are not in the world of teaching, they think teaching is the same for every teacher.

And it's why the dialogue that sits around teaching, when you, not even, mostly I'm thinking people who aren't in teaching, but sometimes for people who are in teaching who have only ever known one or two types of environment, you are blinkered and you're shuttered off. And so it makes a dialogue about the variation and the reality so stark. I see it now in my job because I'm sat working with our franchisees in terms of liaising with different local authorities about alternative provision. 

And you would think with something like that, that there would be a standard, but there is not. And it makes the conversation about education very difficult because people who sat outside of it think their experience of their time in school, and it is a cliche, gives them every right to talk about what schools are and aren't, and it doesn't. And actually, if you think about it, before 1988, we didn't even have a national curriculum. 

So it's within my life. And schools were very different. Schools were actually a product of the personality of the head and the teachers and the ethos.

And there was a very, there was a big difference between the little Catholic primary school, the CofE camp at the school, the non-denominal, and they were allowed to become their own little worlds where professionalism was at the helm. The trust was back in that head teacher to do it their way. I know we probably swung too far the other way, particularly where safeguarding was concerned and that kind of thing. 

But if we had the non-negotiables like keeping children safe in education, but fundamentally, we allowed the people. You should have been a head teacher. No, you should have been a mark, because that vision, without being straight-jacketed and strangle-held, would have been, the UTC, if it had been allowed to really flourish prior to COVID, could be, instead of being ridiculed, we should be being looked at across the world for the absolute state-of-the-art, cut-glass, elite educators in the globe.

We're a laughingstock. But when you look at the talent that sits within that field, it's not for the bloody one to try in, because I think we'll probably be on episode 45, 46. There's not a single pit pony I've not spoken to at some point during an episode that we're recording where I've gone, this is a crying shame that this person is out of education.

And the reason they are out of education, quite categorically, is what you're talking about now, because they've taken people power out of it, professionalism, personal ideas and vision. Some of the best head teachers I've worked for were visionary, and they would have folded under a multi-academy trust. They'd have been considered the dinosaurs and the luddites.

So I think having that insight into those two weeks and the different experience you had, which is why in many ways, there is a fear of leaving teaching to go into another job, because it really is a jungle out there. And let's face it, another common thing that we hear, and you alluded to it yourself, what happens on the day of the interview, very often, is a stark contrast to the reality of what you've been allowed to do. Yeah.

So you're in this, better the devil I know, do I take the chance? What do I do? We're getting it wrong on so many levels. Anyway, here ended the lesson, but you do your two weeks, you're in and out. Where do we go from there? So for that little while, that was where maths coach started. 

And it was fine. It was okay. As I say, I'm getting this steep learning curve about the way that different schools are operating.

Really thinking back to Mark and Hyde-Sunstall and what you said, how the school is a part of the community and how it works with that and thinking, wow, that model got it right. It responds to the needs of its community. It adapts its teaching and that community to it. 

And I saw some schools doing that incredibly well, others not so well. And it was such a curious time to observe. I had a lot of fun getting home and then setting my afternoon, my evening to go and be the maths coach and thinking ahead about that, going, right, okay, well, thankfully both my parents are accountants, so I can talk to them about financial modelling and is there a future with this? And that was quite exciting.

Travelling around different parts of the North East. And then I must have left one tab open on jobs that I was looking at. Maybe a couple, I might be romanticising it.

But there was a job that came up at Durham University, assistant student support officer, around £25,000 per annum was the lower bracket, I think. And I'm looking through it. And I was reminded of my own experiences in Durham. 

And it was that student support model. I remember the person who was my student support, who was an absolutely fabulous lady. She was called the mother of the college.

And I hope she never listens to this because I don't know if she knew that. But she was absolutely phenomenal for support, really patient, really gently smoking, but commanding. If she suggested something, you did it. 

And you knew that she cared. You really knew that she cared. And I thought, I can't hold a candle to the way that she did student support.

Am I even worthy? A very close friend of mine had done the same job in another college. And I was really hesitant to speak to both of them and say, look, do you think I'd be any good at this? My close friend texted me back almost immediately and said, do it. Come for a pint.

If I need to convince you to do it, I'm telling you to do it. The lady who'd be my sort of mentor on student support said, I'm happy to say that you should do it. And if you want a reference, let me know. 

She was now principal of the selfsame college. So my heart was fluttering and going, oh my God, is this something that I could do? The student support, the element that I've always connected with, really? So I put the application in. The next thing I knew, I was being invited to an interview. 

And it felt like I was coming in from the cold, just having the opportunity to go for an interview, to sit there and talk about this thing I've always wanted to do. I don't know if I'm going to be any good at it. The contract is for a year for maternity cover.

So what the heck, if I get it, why not? Yeah, it's less money and that's scary. And I'm happy to talk about how I reconciled that later on, but I thought, give it a go. And I still to this day, remember wandering up the Bailey in Durham, popping into the cathedral and having a little prayer with St. Cuthbert saying, please help. 

I'm going to need it. You know, I hadn't done anything other than the teacher's interviews for ages. So I had no idea what was coming.

I thought, be professional, be professional, be professional. And I remember one of the questions being, how do you maintain positive professional relationships with staff? And I just said, oh, we go to the pub. Damn it, that wasn't professional. 

And so they said, okay, extension from that, if you have a difficulty with a colleague at work, how would you manage that? And it fell out of my mouth before I had a chance to catch it. I said, oh, pub. Well, no, no, you know what I mean? In the nice chatty sense. 

Thank God they were laughing. Thank God I thought I knew I'd still got them on side. And the final question, how do you deal? It's a stressful job.

How do you manage your welfare? And I knew at that point there was a warm relationship and I said, I don't dare say it. To which one member of the panel says, I've already written it down, mate, you've got to say it now. Yeah. 

Yeah. Which is saying I'm in a safe space. Completely.

Completely. I would suggest anybody listening to this, if you sat listening to it, Google the castle at Durham University, because it is such an amazing environment. You're in love with that building more than anything, aren't you? As much as what you're doing and you just love your day to day. 

The building, the building's a delight. The building is an absolutely beautiful thing. A lot of people call it the college. 

It's not. At the end of the day, it is bricks and stone, arranged in a beautiful fashion with a very rich history. What I love deeply, the students and the team that I'm with there, coming in from the cold, working with porters, cleaners, catering, alumni managers, operations team, the leadership. 

I could not have asked for better bosses that, like Mark, take the time, understand me, let me make mistakes. Hello, loyal listeners. I'm going to go full on Charles Dickens in this buy us a coffee slot.

And as Oliver Twist, we're going to ask for a little bit more. Any pennies you can donate to keep our podcast funded would be greatly appreciated. See the buy us a coffee link in the episode notes. 

Thank you. Are we due to hear about a Wendy? Wendy is right. Wendy is the principal of the college. 

Yes. And while I was spending quite a bit of time learning what professionalism meant and getting a gist for the role, Wendy and Ellen as well, VP, when I was sitting there struggling, as they were talking about professionalism, not because I'd done anything unprofessional, but they were just talking about it and different approaches. And I said, you know, I've never understood what professionalism means. 

And they cleared it up for me within 30 seconds. They cleared up how to take a professional approach in 30 seconds, something I hadn't understood. Can you remember what they said to you? So they pointed out, they didn't say what it meant from a dictionary definition perspective, but they took the time to explore it with me. 

And they said, you're very, you like to have a warm and playful relationship with people. I said, well, yeah, of course I do. And they said, you know, it came out in the interview, that's the environment that you want to create. 

That's important to you. I said, well, yeah, of course it is. And they said, right, not everyone's going to read it that way.

So for the first 10, 15 minutes, when you get to know somebody, assume that you need to be neutral. I thought, well, okay, yeah, I can do that. Yeah. 

Make sure I'm not being misread. Yeah. Go with neutral. 

And then kind of, as it becomes more and more obvious to me that I can bring that warm and caring element in, or that playful, funny, slightly cheeky elements, or do I actually, you know, does a student need, not a tough love, but just a direct, look, you need this, this, and this. They need that approach. Start neutral and figure it out. 

I went, oh, okay, yeah, I can do that. And I went, that's professionalism. And it's tutoring. 

It's meeting people at the point where they are and getting it right in the communication with them. And not having it all planned beforehand, that that meeting is going to go the way you want it to go. It's being able to, like with tutoring, turn on a sixpence. 

Okay. It's not tough love that's needed here. I need to come from behind my desk. 

I need to sit at the side. We need a cup of tea. That's the choice I'm making with this. 

Okay. I've gone in with a cup of tea and the tissues, right? You're not having this because this, yeah, we now need the tough love because you're right. It's about that lithe approach to knowing. 

And that's leadership as well. It's about knowing what that person needs from you. And it's instinct. 

It's trusting and instinct with how to deal with things. And if you are in a safe space, you can do that rather than tying yourself in knots because you can't remember whether you've said in a meeting or with me, drivel. Right. 

So you've got this one year temporary contract. Are we still sort of Damocles over our head or is that one year past now, David? By chance, it happens that there's the possibility for that role to become permanent. Okay, good. 

And of course it's being opened out. Did David want to apply? Yeah. David wanted to apply. 

Yeah. Threw the name straight in and got the role. Beautiful. 

Could not have been more thankful. Certainly after at one point thinking, whoops, because at this point, you know, by about a year in, I've made a couple of mistakes. I seem to remember one email that I really wasn't particularly proud of in having sent it off. 

You know, one of those where you see something, it really flares you up. You go, right, okay, I'm sorting this out. I'm telling them what I think. 

Send. Breathe. Oops. 

Panic. Okie dokie. I better go and talk to Wendy. 

And off I shot. I knew, I thought, that's it. I'm going to get in trouble. 

I've said something stupid. I was really annoyed. I should have done A, B, C, D, X, Y, Z. So kind of up in a bit of a panic. 

I just says, look, I need to tell you this. There's potentially a complaint coming my way. It's absolutely fair enough. 

I've not sworn or anything like that. And she's going, okay, calm down. Would you like a cola? I'd love a cola. 

Please tell me it's a mixer. I need one right now. She's smiling. 

She's going, okay, tell me what happened. And I am sitting there, you know, like a Muppet in the confessional or kids sitting at parents' evening going, oh, no, I've done wrong. I've done wrong. 

I'm really sorry. Yeah, I should have. And she sits there and smiles and goes, I get it. 

I hear you. What? A? And she spoke it through and she said, let's, okay, let's discuss this. Let's discuss where your head was out. 

Let's discuss what was going on. And I kind of chased it. And I'm saying, well, it was this, this, this, this, this.

And I kind of knew that it was one of her key phrases. So I just kind of jumped in and said, look, before you ask what the learning experience is here, go for angry walk before send angry email. And she went, and that's the end of that.

And that David is professionalism modeled for you. I'm come to you. I'm in a state.

She said, do you want a drink? Do you want to, do you want a Coke? Tell me about it. She didn't then go, right. This is the third time you're in here with the same. 

Do you see what I mean? Yeah. What Wendy just did then was exactly what she'd explained to you in a completely separate. This is how you are professional with people. 

You give them space. You allow them to come to their own wisdom. You treat them at a point of need of what they needed. 

And at that point you were sat in fear, shame, the whole lot. And she professionally dealt with the situation. And it's compassionate leadership as well, isn't it? You, you, you, nothing about leadership should be to my mind about anything other than relating to somebody on a, on a human to human level. 

And it's ridiculous that that even needs to be said, but that's what that's to me, what leadership should be. It's about adapting. It's about listening. 

It's about responding. And fundamentally, it's not about flicking somebody. It's about helping them to, to grow, isn't it? Um, because actually one of the words that David used when, when he first started communicating with me, he talked about tyrannical styles of leadership. 

You actually use that expression and you've given all the castle. I feel an No, no, no, no, obviously. And that's why I said tyrannical styles of leadership.

It's not mentioned in any schools or any experiences, but you're in a good space. So we come to that part, which is the bit I love. And I've been waiting for with you in particular.

I want to talk about your sliding doors moment, David. I want to talk about what your life, we know what your life likes. Now we can, we can feel the difference. 

We can hear the difference in you. Have you given much thought to the sliding doors moment of your life? I'm so sorry. I know you wanted me to pick a moment and God bless me. 

I've tried, but since over the last two and a half years, there is that constant sense of joy going into work. It is not that I'm not, I don't feel an element of stress. It's, it's not that, you know, you have good days and bad days and there's days where you feel really sad at what's gone on or upset. 

What I have not felt at all in that college is that I can't share it with the community. I mentioned the porters, the cleaners, the style of leadership that exists there has created the leadership there among many talents is how can I help? I can, I can kind of summarize my experiences. How can I help? And that has bled into the entire community. 

If I see a colleague, you know, a bit stressed or stuff going on, can I, can I help with any of that? Find any training to do some bits and vice versa. But the first question is, can we help? And that, that teamwork is something that I'm thankful for on a daily basis. I can be myself. 

I can be imperfect. And if I need to step back and go, I'm not about to deal with this well, I can speak to my line manager and she'll either say, look, I'm going to take over and model this for you. Or I'm going to tell you what you're doing. 

If that's what you're asking, or we're going to take some time, we'll have a coffee, we'll reflect and we'll think. So again, it's not the castle. It's that community that I'm with that I am so bloody thankful for. 

And the doors slide on that every single day. As I genuinely feel lucky, I got back into my religion. I found myself back in the church towards the end of teaching. 

I thought, you know, again, that's it. I'm a complete failure. How the hell can I stand before my God and my creator? And several friends going, get the hell back into church. 

Yeah. When saying get the hell back into church, I'd go back. So it's what, it's what we always do. 

Go home, go back to church, go home. Yeah. And I was brought home and okay, fine. 

I'll make mistakes. Same as I do at work. I'll make mistakes before my God and my creator. 

And that's okay again. That's fine. There's the justice and the mercy. 

Sure. I've got to put it right, but it's okay. The point is to make it right and move on. 

And I think the last bit, the main element would be my, I call it my better half. We've been together around about a year and a half at this point. And I don't, I think if I hadn't left the teaching community as I knew it at the time, I certainly don't think that if I'd have been in this job, in this career that I am now, that I'd have been ready for it. 

Yeah. Our paths crossed when they did. I wouldn't have been in the, in the space that I'm in. 

You wouldn't be the version of, you wouldn't be the version of yourself that you are now. No, certainly not the version that I think she deserves and the two versions of us that helped to build each other up. I'm a showman. 

You might've guessed, I spent a lot of time in the theatre growing up. The moment that does stand out for me was when Wendy was unfortunately ill, we all sort of needed to step up and my line manager said, look, David, in the role that you're in now, you know that you could lead a formal dinner. Wait, what? Come again? You fancy it? And again, you'd think eat a three course meal with a gown on, stand up and give a speech to the students. 

Oh, holy crap. Yeah. Okay. 

I've got two, three minutes to give the kids a message and say something that might hopefully just inspire them for the rest of the week. And then we can all have a three course dinner and David might drink that glass of wine really quite quickly. Oh yeah.

God. And I did. And I had my dear mum and my girlfriend in as guests because I thought, well, you know, if I'm going to share anything, if I'm going to share any experience, why not? It was a huge kind of moment for me, one that I'll treasure for a very long time. 

And it was none of that that really made me pop. It was a wonderful thing. And it was, it was so wonderful seeing the students happy. 

They enjoyed it. The moments where the doors closed was actually getting home and seeing a cute little Instagram post from her saying, my man likes to think he's Professor Dumbledore for an evening, but I couldn't be more proud of him. Oh, wow. 

And that was, that was where I couldn't hold back the tears. That was where I knew that life is bloody good. Oh, David, David, David, David, thank you. 

And we've talked about being more Mark. I think some of us need to be a bit more David as well, because you've really, really held space for us in the most fascinating, really thought provoking way when it's come to talking about education, talking about leadership, and you've done that. You've held that together and it, it's a brilliant episode. 

So on behalf of myself and Sarah and our listeners, I want to thank you for the time you've given us on this episode. Thank you, David. Thank you. 

Thank you so much. Hello, friend. Normally at this point, I go straight in with, well, what did you think? What did you think? I want to say something first. 

All the way through that, David Myers reminded me of you. Now bear with, bear with. His loss to the teaching profession has been Durham University and the Castle's Gain. 

And I have moments like that every day with you. Every single day, you've no idea. There are certain points in our working relationship where I go, I am so grateful, so grateful that you are a casualty of the profession because your skillset, your vision, what you do for Connexus Tuition is off the charts. 

And that would not be happening had you have stayed in the teaching profession. I have no doubt what you would be doing would be glorious, but it is really, really our network and my personal gain. And I felt that very much about David Myers that we've really, more than our pit ponies all the time, I can name them, I can see them have been a real loss to the profession. 

But this guy, Sarah, what did you think? I think I'll start with, I haven't got young kids of my own anymore, but I've got young nephews. Would I want them to be taught by him? You bet your bottom dollar I do. Because just the passion for the subject, just everything about it, about him. 

And I did a lot of the time, and this is my great regret that we don't do these as we don't release the videos currently. And if we were to, we might have to make a decision about releasing this bit, seeing as I'm sat in a strappy top and you think I'm half naked. Oh my God, seriously, listeners, you are so grateful you cannot see us right now. 

Because just to date stamp it, you know, those two freakishly hot days that we've had at the end of April, beginning of May, that's when we're recording it, which will officially become our summer, by the way, I am convinced. Because we normally have record temperatures. We're roasting and boiling because we've had to shut the windows. 

And Sarah's in a strappy top. It's not for the faint hearted. It's not Sarah. 

Anyway, anyway, hide issue. Don't don't at me. No, it just, I was so engaged with him and people could not see.

Where my brain was just like, oh my God, that's what I wrote it down. That's what teaching should be like. That's that's so when he was talking about times that were that were great and he was in schools where where there was a vision, where there was flexibility, where there was creativity. 

That's the stuff that that I remember from not just the early days of my teaching, but quite a protracted period of it. There was that. But when he started talking about the the standard standardization, the PowerPoint, there was there was a school that I was at that.

Oh, God, there was a template design and you had to use that. And it had something down the side that was an acronym that I can't remember anymore. But it was I won't say the word I want to use.

It's pointless and it's dry. And and how on earth are you inspiring kids to learn when that's the diet that they're getting? But to then go to and the the teaching protocol that happened with kids was then the same protocol that was happening with staff in professional conversations. I've got two minutes to give you this feedback. 

You've got one minute's feedback to me. I don't have the language that I can use on a clean podcast. It's ridiculous. 

But that's when decisions that are made behind closed doors then have to be brought into the real world and the disconnect between what is the reality of what's going on. So, yeah, from that point of view, I was fascinated when he was holding space to have that level of intellectual, philosophical conversation about education. But where I found it fascinating was watching the decline in who he was as a person. 

I charted the difference. And this is what happens who I went in as a teacher at the age of 22. And I use this expression so many times.

I lost myself. He turned around and went, well, if it's 90 percent marking, here's my resignation. That part of him got lost along the way. 

Now, I do think his COVID and where he was at didn't help. But you could see that character being drained because of institutionalization, where he was sat there totally at the behest of these targets. And it took a union guy to come in and remind him of how he would have dealt with it and gone, no, that's not a target. 

You can't say if he doesn't get in trouble again, he's passed. He lost that fire in his belly. And that's what happens.

Do you know what I wrote down at the point where he told that bit about the union guy? Do you remember Happy Valley? When she goes into the school because her grandson's been accused of it. Was it drawing on the car? He's drawn a penis on Mr. Hackworth's car. That's the one. 

And she went in and in the way that she did, she just shamed them. Yeah. Shamed them. 

And what I love about that, she went in. She didn't play by those rules. That's what a good union rep should do. 

No. Just because you say you can, you can't. And I always remember that episode because, turn out your pockets, where's the mark? He turns a lighter out and she looks at him and she goes, really? Really? And then what is beautiful about it is that she's walking him out the building. 

He goes, how did you know it wasn't me? And she went, because I've seen your drawer of cock and balls. I know how your drawer it is. You know, but it's that level of, this is nonsense what's going on. 

And I don't have to put up with it. Because sometimes the most powerful people within a school are the parents. No, you're not, you're not doing that. 

I don't have to do that. You're wrong. But teachers, and that's what happened with David. 

He shrunk. And then when you factor in, and that was a really interesting moment because I saw a bit of a kind of, um, your, your understanding shift at a point because of that erosion of who he was, he then goes to a GP and the GP, and I knew where David was, I didn't know, cause I'd not talked to him, but I knew where he was going. And the minute he said, and he put me on sertraline, even though he doesn't feel that anymore, I felt the shame of him having to say it because I felt that. 

And when you talk to people and we see it in the group as well, you talk to people who've been put on antidepressants and they see it as something really negative. And, and we've got, and I've said this before, and I've no doubt, I'll say it again. We have this complete disconnect with how we treat ourselves in terms of our compassion for our recovery with our mental health compared to if it's a physical thing. 

I've had multiple surgeries in the last 15 years. I think I've had eight surgeries. Do I do as I'm told afterwards? Do I rest? Yes. 

Do I do anything that's going to set me back? No. Do I take the painkillers? Yes. But taking, taking the, the antidepressants felt different. 

I think, I think there's just a little bit of a middle ground to explain as to why. When you've had your surgeries, it's something that's happened beyond your control. It's happened. 

It's a medical issue. You've not done anything. There's been no lifestyle changes. 

Going to the doctors and being told you're morbidly obese and now you're diabetic, there is an element of shame because you go, well, this has probably been my fault. I have overeaten. I've made poor choices. 

For David and yourself to go to the doctor, now I'm, please, I'm not definitely speaking on your behalf, but a part of you must go, how have I allowed this to happen? No, you don't. Okay. You don't because, or certainly I didn't.

You don't. It is a medical thing. It is. 

It's exactly the same. Your mind is, your brain is an organ. It functions on chemistry. 

Every surgery I've had has been to do with something going wrong with one of my organs. It's medical. I never, ever, never, ever have I gone, how did I allow my mental health to get this bad? I have never done that.

David, you ask yourself, would I have been sat in the doctors being prescribed sertraline had I not have been in teaching? No, no, no. And because, because I think for me, can only speak for me personally. Nobody can speak for anybody else when it, when it comes to their experience of physical pain or, or, or, or mental pain.

Um, I knew that it was a product of what had happened around me environmentally, but also it happened over a very long time that even had the critical thing not happened at the end, I'd have ended up there somewhere along because, because that environment, that job, my own stupid standards, I was a martyr. Everything was, was nothing was more important than work. We've had this conversation. 

Oh, self-imposed, self-imposed deadlines. You were still doing it only up until recently, but why have you put it done by Friday? Yeah. I, and I'm, but I'm better at that now, but I've never taken any blame for that. 

I cannot take responsibility for the way my brain chemistry reacted and responded in response to my environment. And, and it's, I think it's that lack of control. I think if I, um, yeah, the diabetes great. 

And I did this, I was warned. I was, I was pre-diabetic two years ago and it was basically because I was eating rubbish and I did self-flagellate about that because that was my fault. Yeah. 

I can't take responsibility for my brain doing the same thing as, um, my inside lady parts did to me 10 years ago. I ain't letting you get away with inside lady parts when you sat at the strapless top. No, I kind of, I'll just dial it back in. 

All right. Oh, wow. Right. 

So moving on from your inside lady parts, like, isn't it amazing that we are women of a certain generation who can't use certain words. So moving on from your inside lady parts. I just, I just loved everything about, about that guy. 

I really, he was very memorable character, really, really memorable. And when we talked about power of educational institutions being about the people and their vision, and it doesn't have to be a one size fits all. He's not of his time. 

Had he have been in the sixties and the seventies and the eighties, he would have thrived. He would have been such an out, he'd have been ahead of the game. He would have been. 

And what I loved about him was in his humility, he was so inspired by Mark, his first head teacher and Wendy. And he doesn't recognize that he has the same qualities as them. Yeah. 

His reaction when we said you should be a teacher, we were both absolute about that. And he was like, what me? No, no. So, so I really did. 

I really did enjoy it. And I think it was, it was a typical, but unique story because yet again, we fumbled a ball. We have fumbled a ball there with that guy. 

But I go back to what you said at the start, there's a full circle element to that because he reflected on the support he received from his student support officer when he was a student and he's ended up back doing that for other people. And if that isn't a beautiful, virtuous circle, then I don't know what it is. It is. 

It is. Well, I think this is where I'm feeling the pain. And this is where I think I'm saddened by it. 

I am one of those people who feels exactly about maths and maths GCSE that he tried to unlock. And I have been an absolute casualty of maths GCSE. I still tell myself limiting self-belief. 

I'm not good at maths. You know what I can do with quick maths. I'm a darts player and I can work money out on the back of an envelope without effect. 

A hundred percent. My quick maths is like bang, but yet still tell myself that I cannot do GCSE maths. There is a real mental block about that.

And that's where I feel we've missed a trick because there are so many children who still have my experience where maths is concerned. And we separate them into two parts. Are you good at maths or are you good at English? We should, we do, but we should be able to say it should be accessible to all. 

He talked about being creative with the maths, giving the time to figure out the problems. Not only do I think he's been a loss to teaching, I think he's been a loss to his subject. Yeah. 

Because if you had him in a teacher training college, training the next generation of maths teachers, sat on some bloody government steering committee about shaping the future of education. That's where I know there's been a beautiful personal circle for him. But that's where I think we've lost some real talent in the world of education where David Myers is concerned. 

And then when you take that a step further, that we're only speaking to, I mean, I know we speak to thousands of people and have done over the last five years, but we've only told 45 stories at this point. It's not even the tip of the tip of the iceberg. It's not. 

How many quality people are now not going to be there to teach my nephews, my... Or to shape the way in which we do this, not on an individual finger in the damn kind. To contribute to the whole system. To reshape what David, because he hit on another good point.

We came back after lockdown and went backwards. We started to run organisations through fear, where the priority came from the rhetoric of the government. Get them in, get back to normal.

Well, here's normal they didn't get back to. Get them back in, get them in the classroom, get them sat down. Let's normalise life again. 

We got it so wrong. We went so far towards rigidity that it's stifling. But I think you also made a really important point.

There are schools where that hasn't happened, where the creativity is there, where staff, and I'm going to do it in this order, where staff are encouraged to flourish, and that encourages the children. It cascades down. You can't have, to me, you cannot have a culture in a school where creativity and all the rest of it is encouraged for the children, but not for the adults. 

It's utter nonsense. I'll tell you what is happening and mark my words, my friend, and it's happening in like, you know, when you get a small humming noise in the background and you don't quite know what it is, it gets louder every now and then, and it keeps coming across your path. Mark my words, Schrodinger, right? The home education community. 

Mark my words, because what he was talking about, the parental power are going. We see that. We recognise that. 

We don't want that for our children. Fast forward five years' time. We know those numbers. 

Is it 185,000 children? It's gone up by at least 20% in 12 months, but yeah, it's about 180,000. It's gone up 20%. We are starting to get a groundswell of people who think creatively, who don't go with rules, who don't want schools. 

They want education for their children, but they don't want schools. In five years' time, we might be in a position where there are as many children being educated in a school building as there are being educated in a completely flexible way. The government may have not taken advantage of what COVID could have brought, but I think parent power and society is going, well, we will. 

Yeah, and that's an interesting discussion, isn't it? Because having had some fairly extensive discussions with people recently about home ed, one of the limiting factors in decision-making is parents, not all, but some parents still wanting their kids to be able to do qualifications in order to get into university because that's still something that they want to do. I think it would be really interesting if the higher education system got wise to this and went, actually, there are 180,000 kids currently being home educated, and even if 10% of those kids want to come into the university system, that's 18,000 young people at the moment. How will we set up to facilitate their entry into the higher education system without the piece of paper that says they've met a certain standard in a certain subject? I think if that can come from the university system, where they can say to home-educating parents, actually, there are routes in, and I know there are routes in. 

Yeah, there are. Because we're learning that through Connexus, aren't we? It doesn't stop your entry into higher education if you've not got that piece of paper. But I think, can you imagine if that layer, and if employers started going, right, actually, we're going to look at this differently.

We are going to drive this. What are your GCSEs? Oh, you didn't do GCSEs, right, what alternative do you have then? What's your alternative? The minute we can talk about an alternative to GCSE and A-level, and it's still open a door, because that is the one stranglehold that we've still got left. You have to go through that door in order to go through the next stage. 

So I want to put that as a marker on the sand for 2025, because if we're listening to this in 2030, I wonder what the landscape of our education is going to look like based upon exactly what was discussed on this podcast today, which was, this is how we're getting it wrong. Right, okay, well, this is now what it looks like. They didn't listen. 

They didn't listen. Well, that all went a bit highbrow. Yeah. 

We went from lady parts to, and that, my friend, is just how we roll, isn't it? Give us a conversation and we can take it in any direction. And I think, that's what this episode has done for me. This was a guy who thought outside of the box, and he's made us do exactly that, which is why he should still have been shaping our education. 

And on that note, pal, on the hottest night of the year so far, I mean, you are wearing long sleeves for crying out loud. Yeah, I know, because here's the difference. You've decided to sit in a room where the sun's been on it all day, yeah? I'm downstairs and we're shaded from 11 o'clock. 

This is probably a cool room for me. Yeah. And you know me, I don't half feel the cold. 

A bit nesh like that. Right, we're rambling. We're rambling. 

I've enjoyed that, my friend. Really, really enjoyed it. So, until next time, I shall see thee on the other side. 

Okey-dokey then. Ciao. Thanks for staying with us during another great episode of the Pit Pony Podcast. 

And on behalf of myself, Sarah Dunwood, Mike Roberts at Making Digital Real, we wish you all the very best and we'll see you soon. If you wish to contact me directly for a support session or a clarity call for your next steps, please find my link in the comments below. See you soon.