055 - Pit Pony Jeanette Thompson-Wessen - Classroom to ADHD Nutritionist - Part 2

In Part 2 of our conversation with Jeannette Thompson-Wessen, the story turns even darker.

 After being shouted at while pregnant, ignored during risk assessments, and breaking down in front of students, Jeannette was left utterly broken. She describes a period of severe depression, suicidal thoughts, and the moment a school chose to send a parental complaint - on the very day she’d shared her mental health crisis.

But this episode is also about survival and the long road to recovery. Jeannette opens up about rebuilding her life, her family’s support, and the power of leaving a toxic environment. She’s now a health and safety ISO consultant and ADHD nutritionist, helping others live healthier lives - because she refused to stay somewhere that made her unwell.

Trigger Warning: Mental health, suicidal thoughts, pregnancy discrimination.

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Edited with finesse by our Podcast Super Producer, Mike Roberts of Making Digital Real

Transcript

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Thank you for staying with us and welcome, Settle In, for part two of this amazing story. Your inner tuition went, I can't do this anymore, I'm broken. In my experience, you go to the doctors and they go, how long do you need? Yeah, the doctor will meet you with compassion.

So you get six months, what do those six months look like for you? It was horrible. It was COVID as well, wasn't it? So even though we were allowed at school, it wasn't really an open place. I was in my house. 

Thankfully, I had my two children at the time because otherwise I would have just stayed in bed. I wouldn't have been able to get out of bed. So they gave me a really good reason to get out of bed every single day because my husband was going, he'd return back to work. 

So I know that they had to at least be in bed and feel some love from me. But I was depressed, really, really depressed. I was in a really horrible place.

And when you're in that state, you do need something to keep you focused because otherwise you do go into the realms of, I'm not getting out of bed, I'm not showering, I'm not cleaning my teeth, I'm not eating, I'm not this, and you spiral. I'm really glad that I had my children for that. My husband was just incredible and so supportive throughout, just literally my rock throughout the time. 

Doesn't it act as the stark contrast? The stark contrast with how you're being treated in the home compared to how you're being treated at school. It amplifies both sets of behaviour really, doesn't it? But school were very keen because they had heard, they think, I think they knew they put the pieces together and was like, oh, what's happened here is not good legally wise. So- Yeah, and in hindsight, a wonderful thing when they're filled with all the evidence.

It gives us such wisdom, doesn't it? Yeah. So they were trying to be like, oh, well, it is more your personal life. And I was like, no, this is definitely my teaching life that's created the situation. 

But unfortunately, it must have been no more than two weeks, no more than two weeks into my, maybe three weeks into my being off sick because of this, I got a letter from the school, opened it up, and I hadn't been awarded my pay rise because I didn't meet one out of three of my targets. The reason why I didn't meet one out of three of my targets was because one of the targets was completely not needed because of COVID. The only reason why we had that target was because of COVID. 

I think it was something like create a scheme of work for something during COVID. So I didn't do that. The evidence that I put in place instead was I was driving around the area delivering, hand delivering, I was using my Tesco, my own money to get ingredients. 

So I was organizing all those ingredients. I'd also spent, oh my God, so long on the timetable, which I didn't have to, it wasn't my responsibility. I spent so long on the health and safety policy that they wanted to put in place ready for COVID. 

So I put all these things that I put, that I'd done instead, that scheme of work would have never have been used because we weren't in COVID anymore. So we didn't need it. We didn't need it in school anymore, but I failed it. 

And they had to tell me three weeks into me being destroyed by that school. And I couldn't cope anymore. I couldn't cope with my feelings. 

I couldn't cope with what was happening. But that's where it's cruel because they're an organization and they could have chosen to deal with that differently. They're going to make their rules. 

So they chose to be vindictive, vexatious and cruel based solely on the fact they could. So everything is stacking up. They want, it almost feels like they want you gone because you dared ask for some help and support at some point, or you got pregnant or whatever reason. 

But how is this trying for everybody to be on the same side, the same team, the same goals? I go back to, we have a zero tolerance abuse policy for members of the public to people who are working there, not staff on staff. Sarah Dunwood, she's apoplectic. She's going to have to lie down in a darkened room after this recording, I can tell you. 

I don't have words. And it's interesting because you, you went to, you know, you get berated for asking for help with helping with a, with a, with another member of staff. But I bet you bottom dollar, if you'd not asked for help and there was a problem, you'd have been berated for that. 

And I go back to being Schrodinger's teacher. You're both things at the same time. I've not felt this angry about a guest story for a very long time. 

No, no, no angers. Anger is sometimes very, very good. It can be quite pathetic, so it's fine. 

But if I'd known you then, if you, if I was to have known you then, there would have been people's doors being knocked down. Oh yeah, I'll definitely. Screeching brakes outside the three-bed terrace. 

Right, can I have a quick word? Is your husband in, love? Yeah. I don't give a shit if he's in the back. Get him down here, I want a word. 

Mike Roberts will bleep that out, no doubt. Right. So, they're docking your pay. 

They've handed you a complaint when you're in your darkest hour. You're off on work-related stress. Come on, this has got to be the end now. 

No. Crying out loud. But no, unfortunately not. 

Okay, so I have, that was six months off. And obviously, like at that stage, I wasn't ready to go back to school. I'd had some therapy, did some CBT, you know, go out for mental health walks, like to the time I kind of started driving past the school to try and get ready to get back into school. 

And I was at, we were at the stage where we couldn't, I couldn't afford to take any more time off because we wouldn't have been able to pay our mortgage. So it was a case of, I have to go back. My husband was very much like, we can make it work. 

And I was like, no, I have to, I have to do this because I need to try and save my career because I need to get back into it and I want to try and change my school. And I need to be able to just basically not have a trauma response at this stage when I go into any school. So, get back into school. 

Try, I'm told by the assistant head teacher, oh, I think we should just try going straight in, just go straight in. I was so naive at the time. I would have not have done that now, but I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, let's go in full time. 

Let's go in, let's do this every single lesson. So I started doing that. Started a little bit from home, then went straight in and then might've fallen pregnant again. 

I haven't, I've only got three. I say only, I've only got three, fell pregnant again. And I did, I remember thinking to myself, oh my God, oh, this is just going to be a nightmare because we're still in COVID. 

And I remember telling like people early being like, I'm really, you know, I'm really actually quite scared about this because we're still in COVID. This was all the time when with COVID they were having like, we were just getting like the injections, like vaccinations. And there was questions about whether pregnant people can have like the vaccinations or whether it's safe, whether it's not safe. 

Um, loads of, like it was when there was the news of pregnant people being in wards on ventilators because of COVID. And, but then at the same time they're like, so get vaccinated, but also we don't know if that's okay for the baby and loads of, and I'm very pro-vax, but this still got to me because I was scared about COVID, I was scared about catching it, I was scared of being on a ventilator and that kind of thing. But I was in the classroom and I remember saying, can I, with the other two, I didn't get a risk assessment. 

And this one, I was like, I need a risk assessment. So I, I basically had to beg for risk assessment. I said, please, I just, can we do a risk assessment? Eventually it got done after begging, but it was only because the person who was doing the risk assessment was an incredible man who was really, really understanding. 

It wasn't because of risk management. He gave some really good suggestions. So he was like, okay, these windows in my classroom, the classroom that I had was kind of long and I only had four windows and a door and like a door at the end. 

And then the kitchen was way at the end. And it was like, none of your windows actually stay open. I was like, yeah, I've got three of them are locked. 

And one of them I had to open and put like a pencil in there to kind of keep it open. And it was like, that's not enough. We need to get it as ventilated as possible. 

So your windows need to be fixed. It's just a straight, and he was like, it's really simple. It's just a straight switch of like X, Y and Z with the, with the window handle. 

We need you to be wearing a mask. I was like, that's fine. We need the kids to be wearing a mask in your classroom and potentially a screen. 

And I was like, okay, brilliant. How can we get this done? Management didn't touch it. Wasn't interested. 

I remember trying so hard to get my fears heard about COVID and me being pregnant. And the, one of the assistant heads who'd seen me on my loan at Lois, she was the one that saw me run. Like she was one who paused, who was like, you can't leave as you are right now.

This one, she'd been, she's now deputy head at this stage. And I remember her just being like, you don't need windows open. It's fine. 

Like, no, we're not going to do any windows for you. We'll just open a door. And I was like, but I don't feel safe like that. 

They told, they removed that policy of the children having to wear face masks. And when the risk assessment said that the children still had to wear face masks. And I was trying, cause I'm also very aware that these are, these are kids. 

I'm not going to force them to wear face masks in my classroom, but I was hoping that maybe management would support me, which was, I know, a reflection of very, very big hope here. But management just purely came in and said, well, it's not policy. So they don't have to wear face masks in your class. 

So I ended up being like, I can't, I can't, I was dipping back again into this dark place where I was feeling so unsupported, where I was, I felt in a really dangerous situation where the children weren't wearing masks. The management weren't backing me up about that. I didn't have even fair ventilation. 

I was wearing this mask on my face all day. And it was one of those really big masks that you have, that you had, not even just like a normal one. So it was, I was glad to have that. 

It was also horrible for teaching. My voice was destroyed by the end of the day again, because I would have to raise my voice so much to be heard. And I remember going to see my midwife and she was like, I've seen you dip and dip and dip and dip. 

She was like, I need to write a letter to your school or something because they should be looking after your health and safety. They should be looking after your wellbeing. And when I said to her that I don't have ventil, you know, all these bits and pieces, she was shocked and horrified. 

She said, I don't understand why they can't do that. Even the caretakers, the two lovely caretakers that came in and they started looking at that and they started saying, well, maybe if we pop down to B&Q now, I'll just go and buy some stuff. And I was like, no, don't do, please don't spend your own money because they were willing to spend their own money themselves to get those windows fixed. 

So I could have some more ventilation in my classroom so I could feel safer in my classroom. I was getting to a stage that I was going to get a drill and do that. And then I just thought to myself, I can't do this. 

It really hit like that trauma. I have a real trauma response when it comes to this kind of thing. Now, the trauma really hits and in a big way. 

And I felt those same thoughts coming back and I had to go off sick again. And fundamentally, and I know this is fact because I've got the ACAS stuff up on the screen. There is a legal requirement for an employer to complete a risk assessment as soon as pregnancy is notified. 

And actually, if they are not able to or not prepared to make the reasonable adjustments, then actually they should have offered you alternative work at the same level of pay. And if not, they actually could mutually suspend you on full pay until such time as the need for those adjustments, that's in law. So they broke the law.

They've broken the law on so many occasions. But when you're where your head was, and when you're afraid or genuinely afraid of something that we didn't know, we didn't understand and all the rest of it, then how on earth are you supposed to fight that? And you know what it was for me? It's the caretakers. You can hear them. 

You can hear them walking down a corridor going, that's not on that. Could have that fixed in 20 minutes. That's not on. 

Going home to the wives. It's out of order what's happening to that lass in that classroom. It's common sense. 

It's morality. And it reminds me of Hammer's episode. Was it Hammer, Sarah, who was working in the classroom with no windows? Very, very unsafe environment. 

It is disgusting. It's absolutely disgusting and disgraceful. It's really got to me, this episode, for some reason. 

It really has. So it didn't go well. It doesn't go well. 

We're coming to the end of that now. Please call me. It ended well because that assistant head teacher, you shoved down those two flights of stairs to see if he could get down quicker than you got up.

Unfortunately, he's the kind of person who has evaded quite a lot, shall I say. I'm sure you know the kind of person. You mean how he's remained un-murdered? That's right. 

They walk amongst us. There's far too many of them. How have you remained un-head-butted for this length of time? Yeah.

They're life's miracles. They really are, right? It really is. I had to take that. 

I could not stay in that environment any longer. I knew I was dipping. I knew that that dipping would not be good for me, my unborn child. 

I felt like my unborn child and myself were so unsafe in that COVID environment. I didn't want to get back into a place where I was feeling suicidal again because when I was off for that first time for that six months, it was heartbreaking. A real big wake-up call for me, that Christmas that I was off, I remember seeing an ex-colleague of mine. 

He was so, so, so, so lovely. Such a lovely person. Went to work in a different school. 

Worked up from a technician. Worked at the same time as studied to become a teacher. Became a DT teacher. 

Was a brilliant person. That Christmas, he killed himself. He committed suicide. 

I remember that feeling of discovering that he'd gone. He had Christmas Day with his children, had Boston Day with his children. I think it was not long after that, that he decided that was, and they didn't, no one knew anything about it. 

And it was, it was horrible to see from that side what happened, but also really awfully, I could so sympathise with how he must have been feeling in that moment. And I didn't want to get back to that place anymore. I didn't want to be there. 

And I didn't want that to happen, especially when I could either have my unborn baby or have a newborn and be there. So I had to, for my own safety, take that more time off. So I did.

Had the baby. Desperately tried to return to work again. Had the biggest trauma response.

Even went in for a meeting, went away just crying. And I just said, I need to hand in my notice. I can't do this to myself anymore. 

I can't do this to my children. Can't do this to my husband. And hand in my notice. 

And that was December 2022. I left. I'm going to, I'm going to draw this section of your story to a close in a minute because we can, we can move on to the Thrival book. 

It's interesting, isn't it? Because you said something to me about this was the school that you did your teaching practice. And this is how the building can remain the same, but the experiences are completely different. I bet you loved being a student teacher there. 

I loved it. So much fun. Fun, safety. 

It felt like home. I think about my first school, my first three years, my teacher. It was womb-like. 

It felt totally womb-like. I loved it every minute of it. And then for that place that you felt so safe in, to have turned into such an unsafe environment with traumatic responses, that in and of itself psychologically is abuse in many ways.

So first and foremost, I want to thank you for sharing that part of the story because that's not been easy to listen to. And it's, and I know when we talked, it brought, it brought stuff up. But you leave. 

Okay, come on. Let's just ourselves down, kids. Hello, loyal listeners. 

We're not going to go full on Bob Geldof during Live Aid, but if you could give us some of your money, even pennies, to help us fund the amazing Pit Pony podcast, the link is in the episode notes below. It's called Buy Us A Coffee. And we really do appreciate your contributions. 

Thank you. You leave. Come on. 

Let's get some energy. I mean you. And I was really, really lucky, I have to say, because I left. 

And I think it was before I left, you had done your very first Pit Pony video. And I'd been watching that, knowing that I'd handed my resignation in, trying to plan my next things, knowing that, okay, multiple streams of revenue. I need to have a couple of things coming in, trying to build that up. 

And knowing this was going to be difficult. I have three young children. I have a house, the mortgage, the bills. 

It was really, really, really overwhelming. But it, I didn't, it was a choice that I didn't have anymore. If I carried on trying to teach in general, even at that stage, the thought of going into a new school wasn't an option. 

Absolutely not an option. I'd never, I'd said, I'd never want to teach again. I still never want to teach again, but for many more different reasons now. 

But then it was to save me. It was to save me. So I'm really lucky that my dad has a health and safety and ISO business, so basically like a business consultant.

And I started shadowing him and I shadowed him. I completed my qualifications there. Whilst I was doing that, I was building up a nutrition business at the same time.

So I was trying to do both whilst sorting out childcare. It was a big, it was a big commitment. It was tiring, but I would do that 10 times again. 

I would have the little sleep. I would have the stress of the, of not, of thinking, am I going to have enough money to pay the bills that I would have all of that again and again, again, over stepping foot back into a school again. And it was the first few months I would say was the most difficult thing. 

And I kind of started settling in and it wasn't probably until that second year, so it was last year that I realised I wasn't counting down to like my kids' holidays anymore. And it, it was a real weird one because I was like, oh God, it's Easter. How can it be Easter already? Usually it would be like a crawling and trying to just get to the end of that, knowing that even though you'd get there, it'd be Easter holidays and you'd have revision and coursework things and help, but at least you'd be able to do it in your own terms kind of ish. 

And you'd have some time off around the coursework marking, but you know what I mean? But you'd be crawling. Whereas I didn't have that anymore. I would get to holidays as a teacher and just be like, okay, well I'm going to get ill now.

And I would always get ill. And then maybe I'd have a few days actually being able to enjoy it. Whereas now I've had holidays for the kids where I'm actually present with them and I actually enjoy being around them. 

And there was times where I didn't feel joy being around them, even though they are delightful and amazing, just human beings that I love so, so, so much. But my mental space was that I just don't want to be around anybody. But now I'm just like, oh my God, give me more time with my children and give me more time with my husband. 

And it has been wonderful. It's been a build. And I can say now that I'm earning more than what I used to as a head of department working probably three days a week now. 

And I'm really happy about having that actual real work life balance. What I want to do is I almost want to just take a couple of steps back into the middle bit because this is important. Because what we do is, if we're not careful, we paint the story and let's face it, yours is a story. 

And then we go, and I came out and I did this. And now I feel that what I want to do is just for this particular episode, because you have been so raw and brave in talking about, I was destroyed. I'd witnessed a colleague. 

I'd heard about what a colleague had done. Your mental health was really, really bleak, but you can come out and you watch the pit pony. So let's go back there. 

The original video that we did four years ago, probably this month, now coming up to somewhat of an anniversary. And that is a simplistic blueprint for how to leave the classroom financially. It's really simple. 

Work out your bottom line and the solutions from multiple income streams or whatever. But to do that, I know that you had not had any choice, but that is so frightening. So I want to ask you, were you more frightened before you left than you actually were when you were in the mixer and you were having to do something about it? Or were you equally as frightened when you left the classroom? I'm way more frightened when I was teaching. 

Way more. A hundred times more. It was, yes, scary some months, financially wise. 

It was scary. It was very close to the mark. And there were conversations of maybe needing to have some time off of the mortgage and going up mortgage company. 

But that fear was nothing in comparison to what I was feeling as a teacher from day to day. So what you've said is, yes, there are still fearful moments. And yes, it's a case of, am I more frightened of the known or am I more frightened of the unknown? Yeah. 

So the fear doesn't not necessarily go away. So we're not creating this sugar-coated saccharine kind of, the sedan chair that floats you out. Fear is still there, but it's a different type of fear. 

Yeah. It feels doable. It feels like, yeah, I can do this.

It feels like I'm moving again. Whereas all throughout that, it felt like I was forced off as well as being nowhere. And it was really lonely. 

It was a really horrible place to be. Whereas now, I feel like we can take it on. And yeah, it's scary because I am self-employed.

Any one of my nutrition clients or any one of my ISO or health and safety clients, if they decide, actually, we want to take things in house when it's the business side of things, or actually, no, I'm totally fine. Thank you so much for your help, Jeanette. I'm sorted nutrition Then that's down income for me because I'm a one woman band. 

So yeah, it is scary having to rely on myself for sick pay. I have to pay for my own health insurance, that kind of thing. But it's still as a trade-off. 

It's still as a trade-off. Do you know what? My irony bucket is pinging like mentally and I'll tell you why. Because there is something to say. 

They wouldn't do a risk assessment. They wouldn't follow the health and safety guidelines for your classroom by simply pegging a window open. And what is it you're doing now? Health and safety consultant with eyes. 

The irony is not lost on me. I know, but it got into the world that was denied of you. And I think it's important. 

And I think there's times when we've looked back at this and we've been aghast and we can't believe it. But what we've got to remember, Jeanette, is there are still so many other people experiencing that. Sarah bookended it at the beginning. 

We thought this kind of behaviour about sea changes where pregnancies were concerned was a thing of the past. We assumed in today's day and age, which is quite a litigious culture, how could they not do a risk assessment? Do they not leave that, realise they're leaving themselves vulnerable? But if you've got a school that is incredibly toxic with no accountability, it's almost like a dictatorship, a tyranny. They can do what they want. 

They can. And it takes. Yeah, absolutely. 

And particularly if they've got somebody weak sat at the top, 100%. That one's now in charge of a trust. Oh, this doesn't surprise me. 

Doesn't surprise me one bit. I often wonder how they sleep at night, to be perfectly honest. But. 

So you've got. Your consultancy work, your nutritional work. So I suppose what this is saying to me. 

Is where does this bring us, my dear? To your sliding doors. Yeah, it does, doesn't it? So come on, tell us about your life, like what it's like now and what are those magical moments and feelings that you've had since you've left the classroom? I think I know that if I wouldn't have left teaching, it wouldn't have given us the space that we needed, which we needed. My three year old, so that very last child I had, my three year old, when he was two, so last summer, he started having seizures out of nowhere.

It was horrible. He's been diagnosed with epilepsy. And I know that if I wasn't a teacher, no, if I was a teacher, in fact, if I was a teacher, I wouldn't have been able to take barely any time. 

You know, you've got a really good picture of what that school was like. I like to hope that I wouldn't stay there anyway, but if I was still in that school, because I would have stayed in that school for a really long time if none of that happened, really. I would have maybe taken a couple of days off when I would have wanted to be next to that boy every single minute of the day to watch him, to make sure he's okay, to keep him safe. 

And because I left teaching, I could do that. And yes, my husband took some time off and he did go back to work, but because I'm self-employed and because we've got kind of got to that stage of having a bit of wiggle room and had a little bit of help from my parents as well, because obviously parents do that anyway, I was, I was able to stay with him every single minute of the day. And that includes during night time, me and my husband were, we were shift sleeping because we wanted to make sure we were watching him. 

I wouldn't have been able to do any of that as a teacher and I could keep him safe. And that is worth anything, being able to keep him in that safety. So that's my main sliding doors moment.

Oh, that's, that's beautiful that, that you were able to prioritise somebody's safety because a school that kept you so desperately unsafe made it impossible for you to return. And I think that's, I think that's a really beautiful way to end it, Jeanette, because you've come across as really formidable and we've talked and there's strength, but you only have to begin to imagine what certain periods of your life have been like. And I do know it is difficult in many ways for guests to share because it puts them back in a space. 

And we're already talking a couple of years, you know, so, so there's some, there's some metal that you've got there. And, and really what I want to do is thank you. Thank you on behalf of myself and Sarah for everything you've done, because I know it's, it's hit you this, hasn't it, this one? Yeah, big time, big time, rage and, and justice, but also recognising the feeling. 

I recognise that very deeply. Yeah. So anyway, Mrs. Thank you ever so much. 

What we're going to do now is probably, I'm going to go and have a beta blocker. Sarah will have a mogadon or just a coffee, whatever. We're going to calm down. 

We're going to come, we're going to come back and talk about you behind your back, like we always do at the end. So thank you. Thank you. 

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for validating me because I think it's one thing for people who aren't teachers to hear like something that I've been through, but to have other people who have been in the teaching profession validate, because I, I started off thinking, oh, I'm the problem. 

I must, I have to be the problem. There must be me. I must be a horrible teacher. 

I'm now through that. I now know that, you know what? I was a damn good teacher. I really, I'm not, I'm not saying it to be big headed. 

I honestly was a really good teacher and the teaching profession has lost an excellent teacher in me. I was not too bad with my managing. If you'd given me a few more years, I would have been just as brilliant with my managing.

But a hundred percent, it is never going to happen. It's always their loss and it's always shame on them at the end of the day. Thank you so much for being wonderful and being validating.

I appreciate you both. Thank you. You're most welcome. 

Thank you. Right. I'm going to start this off and bear with me. 

Are you still angry? Well, I'm reflective. This is an interesting observation I found with our pit pony guest, particularly when there has been such real injustice, poor behaviour, toxicity, unfairness. Now, just bear with. 

It is very rare when we get to the tribal story that they want revenge. It's very rare that they've come out of it and they're still holding that anger and they move through it because what I've noticed is, it's not a reframing because I don't even think that that happens consciously, but our guests and our pit ponies and people in general that have been treated in that way, they take the wins in a different way. One of the biggest wins is I don't have to go back to that building anymore. 

I don't have to have you in my life. Look how my life is now, but you are no longer a part of it. It's almost like their own justice comes. 

Am I talking drivel here? Where am I going, Sarah? Play Guess What's In My Head. I know what you're saying, or I think I know what you're saying, that most of the people we've interviewed and even me and you, you're further away from it than I am. You're twice as far away from it as I am in terms of leaving, but I think everybody I've encountered so far has become quite reflective and has come to a point of acceptance that actually it happened. 

It was horrible, but there's an upside to it and let them be. I'm not giving them any more headspace. I don't think Jeanette is going to be there in terms of the anger for a long time. 

I think when catastrophic things are happening, sometimes their message is to let you know you're on the wrong track and she was getting message after message after message, but it's really hard when you think you are on the right path because she was the student teacher at that school. She loved it. Her opening line was the children were wonderful. 

She talked about, you know, the kid who came to her and said if it hadn't have been for you, she was coming from the right place, but it was the behaviour that sat around it that was... I think you and I have said it before, haven't we, privately to each other and after Pit Pony Conversations, do you have to get to the point where there is a marching army of red flags before you see the red flags? And it goes to something that our mate Drew said at conference last year, I think it was, that yeah, you pick yourself up after you, but if you keep running at the same wall and keep dropping on the same floor and then get up and do the same thing again, then there comes a point where it's on you, not the wall. And that's not to say it was on Jeanette because Jeanette's motives were about wanting to do the right thing, wanting to stay in that school, wanting to look after those kids. It was all, but it took for me, and it's probably a mark of resilience, the fact that she did keep trying to go back. 

And that's actually what Drew defines as not resilience. He says that is not the definition of resilience, keep going back and going back and going back. There's a lot of unpicking that needs to be done around this idea of I am strong, I need to keep going in, I need to keep going. 

Even when she'd had that phone call where a father had been blue-lit to the hospital and it was her husband who said email in, she did. I mean, there are so many horrible, horrible stories that sit around teaching and that was a particularly, it wasn't a nice one to listen to what was happening. And our visceral responses were quite strong throughout that podcast because there were some real quick fixes. 

For example, Lord Dunwood could have gone in and sorted out her cookery classroom within an afternoon. And they just bash, bosh, out, bang, you sorted love. It made him a cup of tea. 

Yeah, and you've got a breeze flowing through now, you'll be right. But there are pockets of poignancy and real moments that moved me in that. And they are, she talked about having the most amazing technician who was going and signaling to leadership, she's not right, she's not okay. 

She had two caretakers who were fighting for her and you've talked about that. A very significant person in your life, Roy, very, very important man in your life. What was his advice when you first started school? Don't worry about the big wigs. 

Make sure you look after the caretakers, the canteen staff and the cleaning staff. Treat them right, they'll treat you right. And they did. 

And I've told you this story before that when I got pregnant and this, I think that's probably where a bit of my rage came from. When I got pregnant, the caretakers very quickly, for a variety of circumstances that I won't share, became aware of it. And the day that they became aware of it, I went into school the next day and I kid you not, it was like, I had the biggest, comfiest padded chair. 

It was like, you know Blofeld in James Bond sits on that big chair and swings around with his cat. Well, it was like that. Mr Bond, we've been expecting you.

It's like that. I walked in the next morning and there's this big chair there and the kids are like, my god, miss, where's that come from? And it's right because those, they are the people who see. And your support staff have always, they'll tell you off the record, won't they, normally with a rollie hanging out the mouth. 

Watch him, he'll stab you in the back, he's a wrongening. She's alright, she'll look after you. And they've got a measure of people because if you've built a team and you've built a community, everybody's voice matters and you can be compassionate no matter what. 

And that's what was lacking. I couldn't get to the back of Jeanette's story, why they wanted to make it so difficult for a great teacher, pigeonholed her for greatness and then just turned, oh I can, go on, it's just come to me like a flash of wisdom. Go on, she threatened the person directly above her. 

Yeah, I mean there's nothing more to say than that. Some people get to positions in hierarchies where they just should not be. They just should not be because they've not got the personality traits, they've not got, because leadership skills aside, because you can learn leadership, if you've not got the right fundamental personality traits, you will always be an S-H-I-T leader. 

You just will. You have to have the right personality traits and I think for me, while it's in my head, I wonder, just going to go on a little mental health track for a minute. I obviously had a very visceral reaction to where Jeanette shared she was because I have had, you've sat in the darkness, four times, four different periods in my life.

I know. And it is the most terrifying, lonely place to be because there are moments of rationality where you go, no, I can't do that because of all of the impact it will have, but then the feeling of, but I don't want to feel this way anymore and this is the only way out, is all-consuming. Because it's pain.

Because it is pain, yeah, and it's like a big dock-off, heavy-weighted sleeping bag that's been pulled up over your head and tied up tight. It's suffocating. It's awful. 

Or it was for me. Different people feel it different ways, I'm sure. But I wonder whether my response is not just about that because I had a very visceral response when Ruth Perry died because I lost a colleague to suicide as well. 

And I wonder whether now we react, and this is not a criticism at all, but had what was happening to her, to Jeanette, been happening now, whether there's been some bloody lessons learned. It's only two years. It's only been two years. 

I know, but it happened, what happened to Jeanette happened before Ruth. That's what I'm saying is I wonder whether that element of it might have been different. I suspect not because those people who I don't know, and I'm not in a position to sit and judge, but I'm going to, those people behaved in a morally reprehensible way. 

Because I go back to what I said on the podcast in full. If somebody divulges in whatever way, cryptic, overt, implied, if somebody tells you that they are on the bones of their backside with their mental health, the world has to stop in order to take stock for that person. It has to. 

Because to do anything else, to continue with the letter of complaint from a parent, to send the letter to say you're not getting your pay rise, to do those things when somebody has said to you, I want to do the very worst thing that I could possibly do to myself. You have no bloody moral compass at all if you think that to carry on like that is acceptable. It's wrong. 

And the irony is not lost that it takes place in a world that's seated in safeguarding. I know. I know. 

It is all about safeguarding and safeguarding at its very core is you sit in worst case scenario. When something is presented to you, we have been dragged through the safeguarding world to go, we don't do what we would normally do and go, well, let's take a punt. It should be all right. 

You sit in worst case scenario. And the very, very worst case scenario is that your behavior, it can be innocuous or it can be overt, could be that tipping point. So somebody has disclosed, somebody has divulged this so morally, we'll stop everything. 

We try and put them in a safer place as they can possibly be at that moment in time. And then we do the very next thing that we're told to do. We refer those concerns. 

And you only have to look at posts in the group. And this is where our group members are absolutely amazing. Obviously, every post that gets onto the timeline is seen by one of the team. 

But group members will still report posts, not because anything's been done wrong, but for concern for safety, because they will either read a subtext or they'll read something over that somebody has put. And group members follow that exact procedure. They report it, they get on, they comment, you need to ring Samaritans, you need to ring education support. 

If you are in immediate danger, you need to ring 999. You can do this, you can do that, you can do the other. And we've got members, I know the members of the teaching profession, but complete strangers in a platform on the internet showing more concern and care and genuine compassion and understanding of how to support another complete stranger in a mental health crisis than people in positions of leadership in organisations that should bloody know better. 

It's basic. When I've been tagged in a post for somebody who has expressed those things, and that's sometimes why we put them in. Yes. 

We do that for that reason. You are not alone because that flurry of support, that's why we gatekeep the way we do. Can you imagine the chaos if we didn't have post pending? It would be crackers. 

It really would. And that's unsafe in and of itself. But when they eventually do reach out to me and I get them on a call, nine times out of 10, I ask if another person in that house can come into the room.

Basic. Have you told your husband? Yes, I have. Could you do me a favour? Could he just say hello to me? It's common sense at the end of the day. 

Are you safe? Right now, in this moment, are you safe? And what's more, it's my duty to ensure you're safe. But flip it, because I'm now adding to you. Anyway, anyway, let me let me give you a very real and I'll talk openly about this.

One of my periods of time was before I exited the classroom, but it was whilst I was still in school. And I I asked a question of a of a colleague who was she was in the she was qualified therapist. And she was involved at school, lovely lady. 

And I was on gate duty one afternoon with her. And I was I was on some antidepressants at the time, not ironically, for my mental health, it was to manage pain. And I asked her a question. 

And I said, do antidepressants give you a side effect of of that ideation? And she literally, she just very gently got me by the arm, walked me back into the building into my office, picked up the phone said, ring your husband now. I need you to tell him what you're thinking. So I did didn't want to, but I did. 

And then when I put the phone down, she went, and now I need you to ring your doctors and make an appointment. Boom. And that's where my rage has come from.

Jeanette's got to the root of it. Because it was watching not only this situation being fumbled, the really ignorant, arrogant behavior, or gross stupidity. Yeah, there's always that in that that's always somewhere in the mix. 

But not only was it the fumbling and the lack of behavior that you were walked from that gate. But they continued to put the pressure on. Hmm. 

Wow. I know. And this is taking place in teaching.

Well, and the starting point was I watched children's mental health deteriorate. Because I thought to myself, I bet when she was driving around dropping off those meals that she prepared. Do you know what I would have said as a head teacher? That's amazing. 

What I want you to do is I want you to drop those off. You're brilliant. But can you have a pastoral nod to what's going on? Yeah. 

Is a child physically deteriorating? Have you seen an adult present in that house? Was there any evidence of alcohol? She was almost doing welfare checks for the kids in her school. And then that was leveraged against her of why she couldn't get a pay rise. I know. 

Absolutely nonsense. Look, the teaching world is the very, very worst of us at times. But it can also be the very, very best of us. 

And the determining factor is people. It's people. Because here's the irony, if AI was running the shop, it'd know what to do because it'd go by the book.

Yeah. It'd pull down the policy. It'd know what to do. 

The next steps. I thought she was a great guest. I thought she was a great guest because even two years out, you could feel the strength with which she was telling her story. 

You could feel the healing element within her because we were. A lot of it with Gallows humour, I accept it. A lot of it was she was laughing at response to our rage and that kind of thing. 

But it didn't break her. It didn't break her irreparably. And I think that's why it's a memorable podcast for me. 

It really is because she's testimony too. And she said it herself at the end, which I love the confidence with which she said it. I was a bloody good teacher and they lost me. 

And we often mirror that back to our guest. What a shame you left the profession. You could have. 

She knew it. She's on the right road, that girl. A hundred percent. 

And do you know what? It was a good job I was muted because I hadn't tied up the irony of what she is doing now in relation to. They were running like parallel in my head and they didn't converge until you said it. And I thought, oh my God, that's ridiculous. 

And I've just mansplained to her about what her entitlements would have been under health and safety legislation. It felt like a complete div. But what she did was she took it with grace. 

Yes, she did. She did. Yeah. 

Thanks, Sarah. I'll make note of that. Oh, pal, I hope this episode has. 

I don't know, it's a tough one when we've talked around the issues that we've talked around and we will need to put we'll need to put I mean, obviously it'll be too late at the end, but we will have to put a trigger warning because because there is a conversation about. And we always put in the show notes what you can do, where you can be signposted to because you know what? We have a responsibility with what we're doing. It's not just two women on a vanity project, having a chin wag with people who want to get on a screen with us. 

There's a rationale and a reason behind this. These are resources. And I've said this time and time again, I want these to be historic captures of real life stories of what's going on in education in the 21st century. 

I want them to be history resources that kids in a hundred years time listen to and go, could that even be correct? That, you know, this was happening. Which may probably still be happening. Or they'll be asking their AI bot in the room who can't answer them because they're having a lesson observation. 

They can't get round to it because of the market. The AI bot is being observed by a head teacher bot. Yeah, that's what's going to happen, isn't it? It's just all going to be, it'll be the same nonsense just with robots.

But the caretaker bot's going to come in and sort it all out anyway with a virtual fag rolled up in the mouth. Mate, a gun. That's a really, really powerful, powerful episode. 

And I hope that our listeners have taken from it exactly what they need to take from it, which is strength. You're not on your own. It happens too. 

And I will say this, if I'm sat opposite my best friend in the world, my colleague, my Schrodinger, and if my Schrodinger can say that's happened to me four times, it really does happen to the best of us, the strongest of us and the most compassionate of us. So don't ever feel ashamed if that's what you're feeling because you're not my best friend for nothing. I know. 

I know. Right, pal, I will see you on the other side and hopefully not. Right, on that note.

That's revenge, isn't it? I know it is. I know exactly what you're doing. I know exactly what you're doing.

We do so well to avoid our little private jokes that we've got going on. Right, I'll see you on the other side, pal. Always a pleasure, never a chore.

Tra. Thanks for staying with us during another great episode of the Pit Pony podcast. And on behalf of myself, Sarah Dunwood, Mike Roberts at Making Digital Real, we wish you all the very best and we'll see you soon.

If you wish to contact me directly for a support session or a clarity call for your next steps, please find my link in the comments below. See you soon.