068 - Pit Pony Revisited: The Summer Series - Sarah Cowen

In this powerful reissue from our archive, we revisit the story of Sarah Cowen, a teacher whose journey through education reveals the toll of relentless pressure, systemic failures and the struggle to protect her own wellbeing.

Sarah speaks openly about her early passion for teaching, the moments of joy with her students, and the devastating impact of burnout and anxiety. She describes the reality of trying to hold everything together while her mental health unraveled, and the difficult choice to step away from a profession she once loved.

Now carving out a life beyond the classroom, Sarah’s story is one of honesty, bravery and resilience. It is a reminder that leaving teaching is not the end of your story, but the beginning of a new one.

If you are feeling overwhelmed, disillusioned, or at a crossroads in education, this episode will speak directly to you.

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Edited with finesse by our Podcast Super Producer, Mike Roberts of Making Digital R...

Transcript

Thank you to our sponsors Little Voices. Are you a teacher with a passion for drama, music and performance or feeling stuck in the classroom? Little Voices gives you the chance to step into a role where you can truly inspire young minds through the arts. This is a company I know well and admire. 

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Hello and welcome to the Pit Pony podcast with myself, Sharon Cawley and me, Sarah Dunwood, in which we talk to teachers from all walks of life who exited the classroom from what they thought was a job for life and thrived on the other side of teaching. Coming up in this episode, I remember bribing a caretaker and saying, can I buy you a crate of beer if you'll open the school? Because the head had put, absolutely you're not coming in over Easter weekend. And I look back now and I'm horrified, you know, that I gave up my Easter weekend with my husband and my family to go and, you know, bribe the lovely caretaker, open the school and turn the alarms off. 

And he did me a great favour, but I wasn't doing myself a favour. Hello, welcome to an episode of the Pit Pony podcast. We've got a good one today, really like her, which always, always happens. 

Not that I don't always like our Pit Pony guests, so I need to roll back on that one. But a really great episode with an amazing woman, Sarah Cowan, who, not a traditional Pit Pony by her own definition, she accidentally fell into teaching. And these are her words. 

I'd ended up with a bit of a Mickey Mouse degree and my mum suggested drama through PGCE. I'm not going to ask her what a degree is for fear of offending those with the same one. But I haven't heard Mickey Mouse degree for a while since they shut the pollies down. 

She accidentally fell into teaching and then accidentally realised she was very good at it and loved it. And drama for her was that emotional safe space that she created for the kids. She worked at five schools in her 18 year career and what was brilliant about it is she describes herself as the Mary Poppins of teaching.

She'd go into departments, she'd sort them out, probably with her magic bag of tricks that she's got and would stay traditionally for the year 7 to 11 cycle and then move on. And when I first started talking to her, I said, well, what are the circumstances surrounding you leaving? Then she was like, well, I just got to, I was, I was a bit apathetic. I wasn't getting excited about things. 

And then as we dug in, she slowly revealed that that absolutely wasn't the case and that the things that she was going through and normalising doesn't really fit under the title of apathy. But we will get into that with Sarah in a, in a little while. But for the sake of the thrival, Sarah, welcome. 

And what are you doing today? Thank you, Sharon. So today I am Head of Domestic Abuse Services for the charity I work for. Brilliant. 

And I cannot wait to talk to you about such a worthwhile position that you now hold. But let's go back. Let's go back to the circumstances surrounding you leaving a job you fell in love with, a job by your own admission you're incredibly good at.

What had become your custom and practice within the teaching profession that now on reflection you realise was very, very dangerous for your mental and physical health? That is, that is a really tough question because I've really reflected since we had our initial chat. And as I said to you, you unlocked something in me that made all these memories flow. And I think that word you use normalising, you know, I normalised everything over my 18 year career. 

And it came to a point where I'd got to the best, in inverted commas, school of my life in the, I felt really supported by a great SRT, fabulous colleagues. The kids were tough, but once they, once they knew you were sticking around, they were loyal and very, you know, they were absolutely there for you and would show up and love the lessons. And I just had a moment of, I can't do this anymore. 

I just, the love had gone. There was apathy that it was another, right, here I go again, plaster on that smile, get into that classroom, do the, you know, no pun, but the jazz hands and the show and the let's put it on. And it just, it wasn't enough.

And ironically, I think it's because I felt safe. I felt finally in a school where I was safe. And, and again, that does link to kind of what I do now in my, in my day job and that I've got a lot of understanding retrospectively, looking back on that with the parallels of working in domestic abuse environment and looking back and going, oh yes, there was actually a lot of trauma there, but I never realised. 

So at the time I just had head down, I thought it was normal up to that point of me going, well, why suddenly now do I have the space to go? I don't think I want this anymore. And it's because as I used that word earlier, I was safe. I felt secure to do that for the first time in a long time. 

And up to that moment, it had just, just been survival mode. What I now know and recognise and understand to be a trauma response for, for years, for years. And, and I think that it's through reflection now and understanding and looking back when, when your amygdala is not in the driving seat of must survive, keep my head down, don't have a target on my back. 

I'm doing my best. I mean it for the kids. I mean, my gosh, I hear that from my clients all the time. 

You know, I didn't leave because of, I was the same, except, and I know we've seen that parallel on the, on the group many times in many posts with people saying what you've described is like a, an unhealthy and a toxic relationship. And for me, that was it. And I got to the point where I was in a healthy relationship with a really healthy school. 

It wasn't perfect, but then that's okay because perfection doesn't exist, but it was very secure. I felt good. I felt I could breathe.

I felt I could relax. And then when I was safe and secure that I think, well, in fact, I know that allowed the floodgates to open and me to just go, right, I'm going to get out of it. I'm going to just, I'm leaving. 

And the, the Pit Pony video was the absolute catalyst. I remember exactly where I was. And this is really common for people who make these life changing decisions where you go, I can tell you exactly where I was, exactly what I was doing, exactly how I was feeling because it was such an out of the ordinary moment where it was on a cold, rainy October afternoon after I'd been at school thinking, I can't be bothered to coin a phrase.

The kids used to say to me, miss, I'm CBA. I was CBA sat there thinking, I just can't, I can't do this. Watch that video. 

And I knew in that moment, I actually said out loud, which might make question my, my mental state at the time talking to myself, but I would argue, I get a sensible answer that way. I went, that's it, I'm leaving. At the end of this year, academic year, I knew come September, I was not going to be there anymore. 

And I just knew. And that was for the first time in nearly two decades that I had absolutely made that decision. My life is going to change and I'm standing on the edge about to take the jump and I'm jumping and I'm ready. 

And that, yeah, that's the kind of not, no big significant moment and yet it is, it's an oxymoron really. And can I just say, it was incredibly powerful to listen to that because I don't think we'll ever know the impact that that video has had, has had on teachers. Very moving to hear you say that. 

And thank you so much. What do you think it was within that video? What do you think was that it might not just be one thing, but you were a lifer by all accounts. You're in, you're in a school you're happy with, relatively happy with. 

Does it make sense at the moment why you would suddenly watch a random video and go, no, what do you think it was that's, that snapped within you? Because to be fair, the parallels are there. Most people who've been in toxic relationships have the moment, the light switch flicks. I had it myself within my marriage. 

I can tell you what it was. I'm not going to cause I've not thought it through and you go enough. What do you think it was within that video that did that for you? I don't think there was one thing. 

And I think you're absolutely spot on. I just think as I was watching it and I was hearing exactly what, what you were, what you were saying, what you, you know, you were both saying on that powerful video. I went, oh my gosh, they're in my head. 

Oh, that's my life. Um, wow. It's not just me. 

Um, oh, okay. Other people feel this. Uh, who, and you know, I look back now and, and knowledge is power and being in a free and safe space is so powerful because now I can say what on earth was normal about having a tree. 

What on earth was not is I would fantasize, um, obviously about lottery wins and you know, all the usual, but I would drive to work and I had a horrendous journey. It was one particular school where the irony, I love the kids. I've never worked with such amazing kids and that's not disrespecting any of my other kids I've ever worked with, but there was a, these are a special bunch and it was my worst school in terms of, I, I just felt there was there. 

I'd been the golden child in beginning when I parachuted in, changed the department and then there was a target on my back because it was a case of, Oh, you, you know, maybe my face doesn't fit. And I know, and I've heard that on the other podcast. We like to self blame, don't we? That it's me at fault. 

It's my fault. My face doesn't fit. And actually I think now looking back, the problem was that I, I would question, I am, I'm naturally curious. 

I'm professionally curious. I'm in my private life where I'm curious. I like questions. 

And I think that I came up against a bit of a barrier there because I would question and say, why are we doing this? How's this benefiting my kids? I know I still will always refer to them as my kids, even though none of them biologically are. But, um, you know, that, how is it benefiting my kids? Well, why am I doing this? What's the impact it's having? And you don't answer, you don't ask those questions. You just do you met or you're meant to. 

So if you start asking questions, if you start going, uh, hand up, in a meeting, you then become, I may be seen as subversive or a troublemaker or, you know, let's, let's hush her, let's quieten her. And I think we see it. It's very indicative of the teaching profession where, what do we do? Well, the thought of fighting we, and we, many of us fight. 

It's frightening. It's scary. It's David and Goliath. 

And ultimately there's that in inherent thought that I'm not going to win. And actually walking away is the best thing to do because it's self protection. And it was a, and just to go this tree moment, it was this school. 

And I would, I would drive in and I remember one particular stretch of road because I used to think, wouldn't it be lovely if I had an accident that put me in hospital for six months. I don't want to die. I don't want to die at all. 

I've, I've, I've been really fortunate. I've never got to that point where I've seriously thought let's drive off the edge of a cliff. You know, I really haven't. 

And I'm so thankful, but let's put me in hospital for six months where I can't, I can't go to work. I'm not being seen as shirking because I physically can't go to work. And that's my protection. 

And that just gives me space and time. And that was so normalized. And that is so worrying now. 

And I lived with that. I lived with that for years. And I know Sharon, at the beginning, you said, you know, it was like love and passion for teaching. 

I'll be believe I faked it. I genuinely had love for my kids. I'm still in touch with a lot of them now that are grown up. 

And, you know, as you know, I'm an ex drama teacher and I'll often turn on Netflix and all on the TV and go, Oh, it's one of mine, one of mine. And, and I have messages from them and they'll openly saying, it's wonderful. They still call me miss, even though I say, please call me Sarah. 

And for some reason they can't, but they'll openly say it's because of you. And I tell my casting directors, you know, I'm telling one of them, humble brag, but she's quite a main character on the Netflix series of The Witcher at the moment. And, you know, I went for lunch with her before filming started. 

And I remember saying to her, your life is going to change. You've got no idea. And she openly said to me, I tell everyone.

Oh, and I went, I was like, it's because of my drama teacher I'm here. And, and I just think there's a part of me that's like, I know I've changed lives as so many of us have. And that is so precious and it's wonderful. 

And there is no other feeling on this earth like it. Yeah. I wasn't willing to compromise me for that. 

And that's what I was just about to say. So you hear all of this, you've changed my life. But at what cost to you, at what cost to you, what price did you have to pay to be a teacher? Would you say? Oh, well, I mean, I, I have to, I have to preface what I'm about to say by saying, actually, now I truly am happy. 

I've had, and I'm gosh, I'm probably too open and honest. And you either bit like Marmite, you either love it or hate it. And that's fine. 

But I'm a true believer in integrity, being upfront and honest. And so since leaving teaching, I have managed to address my own issues. I've had, I've gone through trauma therapy, which has been so helpful.

I'm incredibly reflective. I've been really able to talk about my kind of thoughts and feelings, but I know looking back, my husband and I never had children and we're quite happy with that decision. We've got a dog and it's lovely, you know, because the dog doesn't ask to be dropped off at a party and picked up at 11 o'clock at night. 

And if she did start, then, you know, I'd probably be a very rich woman because that'd be such an anomaly. However, we're happy with that. But I do wonder, and it's that curiosity again, did I sacrifice that? I was always a, when's the right time? And there's never a right time in teaching. 

And for this family-friendly career that so many, and I'm using inverted commas around that, it wasn't for me. I would say, you know, I always refer to them as my kids as I've done already, but, you know, I'm doing it for my kids. I'm not, I'm doing it for other people's kids. 

And perhaps there was an element that I didn't have my own children. There is certainly no regret there. I'm very happy.

I really am. I've got a great life and I'm not ashamed to say that. I really feel that now. 

And that doesn't mean I've suddenly got, you know, pots of money that I'm jetting off and I'm, you know, sipping on champagne and knocking back caviar. It's not about that because life is rich, but not money rich. And you can't put that price on happiness. 

And I just felt I lost myself. I put myself at the bottom of the pile. I don't know who I was. 

I think I'm finding out who I am now since leaving. And I actually quite like who I am. I think I'm probably a better person because I'm more present. 

I do more things. I'm there in the moment. And I don't think I ever was. 

I remember sacrificing an Easter weekend because obviously, you know, exam times and if anyone who has practical exams, you know, and drama exams are always early and you, from about February to April, you can book them in. And I remember bribing the caretaker and saying, can I buy your crate of beer if you'll open the school? Because the head had put up, absolutely, you're not coming in over Easter weekend. And I look back now and I'm horrified, you know, that I gave up my Easter weekend with my husband and my family to go and, you know, bribe the lovely caretaker, open the school and turn the alarms off. 

And he did me a great favour, but I wasn't doing myself a favour. I went in and worked with the kids and they were great kids. You know, the kids are never the issue I found for me. 

Genuinely, the kids were never the issue. But now I look back and I think, wow, there were no boundaries there. What there were, were a lot of blurred lines where it was, the expectation is almost the unsaid expectation as well. 

There's so much that is unsaid and that's why I think I'm the other way and now I'm very transparent. My new team in my new role, especially, I'll be like, I don't have the answers. I don't have this, but, you know, this is what I know. 

This is, this is what we're doing. This is where we're going. These are my thoughts. 

And then the feedback I've already had to my team is they're like, we really appreciate that. It's okay if you don't have the answers because you'll tell us and it's all right. We just know where we stand. 

And I think that was, that was quite possibly a really big part of it. A completely time with what you're saying, because if we take that parallel to a toxic relationship, because I think the parallels are becoming so clear, the more time we spend in the group, the more time we're speaking to podcast guests. We use terminology now within the workplace that applies to what would have been traditionally your domestic relationship. 

And I think it's fair to say that the common, the common traits for me, the things I hear people talk about, I did it myself. For me, a truly toxic relationship erodes you over time. You don't lose yourself on day two, on the second date, when you're half a term in, and that's where it becomes completely normalized your environment. 

And it's really, really hard when you're in it, you go, this isn't normal because it's become normal. And I've reflected whilst you've been speaking. And for me, what happened with, with me, my light switch moment in my marriage was when a friend came around to my house, could see how unhappy I was, could see how bad things had got. 

And she had the argument with my ex-husband and I sat watching this argument take place, knowing that that was my life. It was almost like being played out in front of me. And I left a couple of days later, well started the plans to do that anyway.

That had been 15 years. If you do something for that length of time, behaviors, expectations and your own standards become normal. How far had your standards eroded with your own boundaries? What were some of the things that you were accepting as normalized as you got to the end of your career? Oh, so much, so much. 

I mean, it was just, I feel awful about it because I think my husband just knew he was always, he was never going to match up to my job. And I'm so ashamed of that now. He genuinely is the most important person.

You know, I, I cannot fault the amount of support he's given and what he's supported me with over the years. And this is the irony, you know, I now work in domestic abuse. I, and I've, I've been with my now husband where gosh, it's now it's 21 years this year. 

You know, we've been together and we've been through everything. And we, we've had the normal ups and downs of kind of normal healthy relationships, but it's, it's not a toxic or unhealthy relationship. And yet I would, and I wouldn't tolerate that from him and he knows it. 

But we've got that respect and those boundaries. And yet I wasn't doing that in my own job. I was allowing the job to treat me like a, how an abusive partner would treat their partner. 

And I see that because I've worked with people who've experienced that. And that really messes with my mind still that, but sometimes you can't see what's in front of you. And also it is the fear things that chime on the group for me all the time. 

And, and I, and I'm, I'm quite a commenter, as you can probably tell, I don't like to shut up and be quiet, but, but the things that chime are the, Oh, the losing the holidays. That was a big one for me. It really was. 

And the, the money, because I was, I'd been teaching for so long, I was a hard, I had, I did have a very small TLR because as I was kind of systematically reminded, you know, I wasn't as important as maybe a core hod and what I did wasn't as important. And I knew my place. I'm saying that very firmly with my tongue in my cheek and all of those things that kind of do erode away and you just accept it because, well, that's, why would you go against the grain? You know, why would you speak out? And you just have to accept those things. 

It just becomes so all consuming. And I think it really becomes difficult to pick out those singular moments for me. Certainly. 

I find it really difficult because everything, everything blurred in, but I would go in all my days off and I did go down to part-time mainly because in the last school I was in, they were really open and honest and there wasn't enough for kind of two full-time teachers. And that wasn't, it was never a case, it really was never a case of us, the one of you will have to drop down. And this is what I've truly respected about my last school. 

It was an open dialogue and I kind of went, oh, well, so if I dropped down to point A and they said, well, we don't usually have hods do that, but you know, we can discuss and negotiate. And we did. And I went down to point A and that was lovely until it wasn't and when it wasn't. 

So what wasn't lovely was me going in on my day off to catch up with exam work, because if I didn't do it, it wouldn't get done. And then the buck stops with me. So the, and I'm, you know, I was expensive as a UPS 3 teacher, a hod, a very experienced teacher.

So I went and just gave my work away for free, just, you know, on my day off. And I would go in on my day off for parents evening because I never questioned, and now I feel so silly, but I never questioned that wasn't the done thing and nobody corrected me. If I'd been a member of the group then, as I am now, and I'd be going, no, I'm not coming in unless you give me, you know, overtime or toil. 

But that, that even in my, in my school where I was supported and I, I've got really positive things to say, nobody volunteered that information. You know, by the way, if it's your day off, what are you doing coming in for parents evening? And I just think there's that expectation or, you know, she's so committed. She's so this, I didn't feel like I had a choice for nearly two decades of my life. 

I felt like my choices were taken away. And I suppose part of it was my own pressure on myself because I'm doing it for the kids. I'm doing it for the kids because I can't let them down. 

I can't let them down. I want, and I, and I did work with some great kids and some of them came alive in my lessons because, you know, creative subject where you're not sat behind a desk. And when you've got all those other issues going on, that was a safe haven. 

But that's not, again, now I know that's not enough of a reason. The irony is not lost on me at the moment that I am sat looking at you, Sarah's, because you could not have echoed in my opinion, and I'm not speaking on Lady Dunwood's behalf, more of a framing of her relationship with herself within that profession. Sarah Dunwood, on how many levels, and I know what she's going to say, all the levels, on how many levels can you relate to what Sarah has just said there about that self-perpetuating gaslighting into lowering your own boundaries and giving everything of yourself into a job when nobody's actually asked. 

All of it, all of it, even down to that kind of, it's self-martyrdom as well. I can't articulate it in terms of nobody was asking me to do things. I mean, things come up on my Facebook timeline of me sat in my car marking books whilst waiting for my son who's doing a band practice. 

And that's not normal. Writing a self-evaluation form for Ofsted whilst sat in your car in witness on a Sunday afternoon is not normal, but I thought it was, because the world would stop if I didn't do that. So there's so much of a degree of self-martyrdom in that as well, but that doesn't come from ego. 

It comes from the quiet boiling of the water over time that it becomes an expectation from other people. And I can't quite figure out where it starts, whether it starts from them or whether it started from me. I don't think it's either or, it's just, it's daft things like the time people leave the building. 

Okay. You almost have this, it seeps into you. You might hear an innocuous comment in the staff room one day, well, she's out as soon as the bell goes. 

Or alternatively, yeah, the caretaker's having to kick her out. It's the culture of the school that you are in. And you're absolutely right, Sarah, because you said, nobody told me that wasn't right. 

No great leader came to me and said, there is a reason why we didn't open that school over Easter, because I want you with your family. You are putting yourself in my bad books doing that. I appreciate what you're doing, but I want you to come first. 

And it's those messages, I think, that are not acting as the counter. When let's face it, the majority of people who go into teaching are empaths. They want to change the world. 

They put their people pleasers. They put their own needs second by default in any walk of life. But unless you've got that good leader acting as a parent in that capacity to look after you, to nurture you and to say, no, this is a healthy boundary I'm putting in for you. 

Then we are naturally going to slide down that route where we're taking books home, where we put in unnecessarily harsh deadlines on ourselves. Do you agree with me, Sarah Dunwood? Yeah. And I'm thinking it, I say this so many times and I'm conscious of it, but it's what would we do with kids? I remember some really high achieving kids who work themselves into the desk in school and out of school. 

And I remember a couple in particular where I actually had to have conversations with them and their parents and say to their parents, she needs to stop working after her homework is done. She needs to have some time for herself. She's working till midnight. 

She's doing this. She's working all weekend. Where's the people who do that for us? Hello listeners. 

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Just mention the podcast when you get in touch. All of the details are in the show notes. Completely agree. 

And was, Sarah Cowan, was there anybody in your world who was acting as your critical friend, apart from your husband who I'm assuming you completely ignored when he tried to help you put healthy boundaries in, but were there any colleagues that you worked with who you can remember over time who acted as that critical body for you? Not at this particular school I was talking about, and as you were talking I was thinking no, because this particular leader at the school where it was the bribery with the caretaker at Easter, this particular leader, and we'd had a real tragedy where my head of department had unfortunately, her cancer had returned and she passed away, and it was absolutely awful. It was a horrendous time in not only my career, but in my personal life. I was then approached by the head to basically say, would you, you know, would you consider going for the head of department role? And I said, I'm really new in my career. 

I had these worries, and again, I will air, I would like to be open and transparent, and he said, well, you know, I'd like you to consider it. We think you'd be a really good fit, and all the, all the, you know, the fluff that goes along. I interviewed, and by that point I thought, you know, do you know what? I want to. 

I want to. I really, I feel really strongly about this. I want to do it. 

When I didn't get the job, and I asked for feedback, I was told that the the male teacher that they'd given it to had better admin skills than me, and that I should focus on my marriage and having children as I was getting married that August. And had I not been in the midst of grieving for my recently passed head of department, and I was young, and that isn't an excuse, but gosh, I'm a perimenopausal 45-year-old now. Nobody's going to stop me. 

Nobody's going to tell me anything that I'm not going to challenge, but it was a different time, and I wish I'd challenged that. I didn't, but, you know, that's okay, because that was then, but that was the feedback I got. So, that's indicative of the type of leader I was under. 

So, when you've not got protective factors above you, you create your own, and my protective factor was I was the shield between the kids, and my job, and everything. So, I knew that if the kids didn't do well, firstly, my priority was them. I want them to do well because I know how hard, I know how bloody hard they worked, and they did, and I cared deeply about them, and they were putting in as much as I was, genuinely. 

So, I was going to go to the ends of the earth. That's not boundaried, however. You know, I was doing it for them. 

I was also doing it because I knew that ultimately my neck was on the line, because even through the either direct or indirect, well, these results aren't that good, and you need to justify your existence. So, I think I've spent nearly, you know, two decades justifying my existence, and that's just kind of one example that, again, at the time, when you're in it, I didn't, it was awful, but I don't think I had any other staff member that kind of was like, what, what the actual hell, and just to kind of tag onto that, there is a woman I respect greatly, who also on the group, a really good friend of mine. She's now moved away. 

She's moved back to her home country, Scotland, through various reasons, so we no longer work together. She would, at meetings, get up when the time finished, and she would go, and I have never admired a woman more. I, honestly, I learned a lot from her. 

She is my hero, because she would be the one who said, I've got to go and pick my child up, and that's important, and I'm going to do it, and she was, she is phenomenal, but she was bloody good at her job, and she worked hard, and she, you know, I've got so much respect for this woman, and I think, and she was my last school, and, and I'll be honest, I think both of us are a loss to the profession, undoubtedly, but what I've, you know, what the profession has lost, my gosh, I've gained in my sanity, and happiness, and well-being, and just how I now love life. I'm not existing. I'm not wading through anything. 

I'm not waiting for the next holiday, and I'm not waiting for the next holiday, so I can recover, and even, and this, this person I've just, you know, kind of said all my, my gratitude towards, and what a wonderful woman she is. I'm going to name her. I'm not, I'm not going to give her a full name, but her name's Caroline. 

Now, Caroline said to me, you know, that actually, oh gosh, she just taught me so much, that she made me realize, you know, I can have boundaries. I am able to, you know, just, it's work. It's a job, and I had a very open conversation with her, and I said, I used to dread, not dread weekends. 

I loved weekends. I lived through it. Friday at three o'clock, the feeling of that was amazing, as opposed to Monday morning, half seven, awful, you know, night and day, and I said to Caroline once, gosh, I resent doing anything at the weekends, and she went, always looks at me, and I thought she's going to go, I don't know what you mean, and we had this conversation where we went, yeah, totally get it.

The weekend was rest and recharge, so I would resent, if anyone's, I used to get nervous if anyone said, oh, do you want to go out for brunch? Do you want to go out on Saturday night? No, because you're stealing my time to recover and recuperate, and you're stealing my rest, so I can't be out late, and I can't do this, and this high anxiety played all the time, so I lived for weekends. I lived for the holidays, and now I don't have that. I look back and think, that's not living. 

That is just lurching from one unfortunate event to the other, really. Do you know that's, I've never heard anybody articulate that before, ever, but you are so on the money. Do you know what I used to dread getting? Invites to bloody kids' birthday parties. 

I used to dread an invite, and I can give you the complete perfect nightmare for me, in a wacky warehouse or a soft play area, slap bang in the middle of an afternoon, so it cut out any kind of thing I could be doing, and I would sit there, resenting my time, taking my kid to something he was living for, watching him play with his friends, being able to sit and talk to people in the same position as me, which is school mums, which I never got the opportunity to do at the school gate, and I absolutely hated them coming through the door. I hated wedding invites from my friends. Bloody hell. 

It's an old date, you're on a Saturday this, and then we're gonna have to get a hotel room, oh then we're gonna have to do this, so you're absolutely spot on. What my life should have been leveraging me through my financial remuneration from a job, I resented doing, because all I wanted to do at the weekend was either get back up to speed with the housework, or do, and I know it's, I know it's an oxymoron that we sort of do nothing. I just want to do nothing, and the one thing I used to love doing more than anything, was lying on the settee in the lounge and watching an Inspector Morse, right? That to me, because it was slow, it was easy, and normally fell asleep halfway through, and that was the thing that juiced me the most, that if I worked everything round, I could watch Inspector Morse on a Sunday afternoon, not go to weddings, not go watching my kid, I mean, heaven forbid I had a hobby, or anything I actually wanted to do. 

I've never heard anybody talk like that before, but you're absolutely on the money, Sarah, with what you've just said. What do you think Lady Dunwood? Completely recognize it, that kind of sinking feeling of, and I think I countered it by going, well if I've got to go and do that, if I've got to go and sit in a, and it has triggered a memory of a particular wacky warehouse, if I've got to sit in a wacky warehouse, or I have got to be the lift and go and wait for them while they're off at the cinema or whatever, then I'll take my laptop and I'll do some work, so it's not wasted time, and I think I balanced it, I did checks and measures in my head, that if I'm not using this time to rest, then I need to be doing something productive with it, and the only thing productive is schoolwork. I completely see.

We're all singing from the same hymn sheet, and what I think has been interesting about this particular episode is your parallels and your levels of self-reflection that your new position has brought you to, and I know you've probably had therapy and healing and a whole host of things to have brought you to the position you're in now, but you did leave and you're now working for a charity. Tell us a little bit about your world now, Sarah, and how the two still overlap in many respects with what you're doing. What are you up to these days? What is your role as Head of Domestic Abuse? Well, it's a very new role, so a bit of kind of backtracking just to give you the potted history.

When I left teaching in August, sorry that's a Freudian slip, that's because that's what I'd set myself in my head. I actually ended up leaving in the April of 2022. I'd managed a secure job for a different local charity, for a domestic abuse charity, and I went and worked there for 11 months. 

Now, unfortunately, that didn't pan out because it turns out that there are narcissists and bullies in other areas, not just teaching, and that was really difficult, and that yielded in response from my husband who said, you need to leave because I can't see you go through this again, because what he was watching was parallels from teaching now encroaching in this new job, which again started brilliantly, started in a wonderful manner, ended very, very badly. Now from that, I was really fortunate in that I went back to my last school. So in the February of 2023, I went back to my old school as a cover supervisor, and you know, and again not with hubris or arrogance, but let's face it on paper, why aren't they going to employ a fully qualified teacher? I'd been a really successful teacher there, so much so that the head, when I left, he actually said to me, if you turned around and wanted to withdraw your resignation at any point, I will accept it. 

He didn't want me to go, he didn't try to force me, he didn't guilt trip me into staying, but he made it known that he valued me, and that was lovely, and that's what I mean, that was best school, that's why it worked. So I did go back, and I was very grateful, and then I took on a maternity cover for inclusion manager, so again, the helping, helping, and then a job came up for a new domestic abuse service. I saw it, and I was one eye on it, and thinking, oh no, I'm where I'm meant to be, back in school, back in school, but even when I went back, and as grateful as I was, and I would always be grateful to be, have been allowed to go back, because it's what I needed. 

I paid my mortgage, it kept a roof over my head, and it was working back with wonderful colleagues and kids. I just was there again, thinking, oh, I don't think I want this, this isn't me, am I trying to force a square peg into a round hole, now that I've realised. So when I saw a job come up for a domestic abuse coordinator role for a newly commissioned service, it piqued my interest, and I was looking at the job spec, and ironically, I looked at the team leader role, and I'm going down it, and I'm going, actually for my 11 months out in my other role, yeah, tick, tick, tick, I've done that, there was just one line in it that said, you need to have had domestic abuse experience for four years, and I went, oh no, so I discredited myself, and oh no, I haven't got that one thing, every other thing on the shopping list I've got, not that one thing, no, I won't apply.

So I applied for the coordinator role, and then got a call from recruitment, or an email saying, we're inviting you to interview for the team leader position, and then I thought, oh gosh, I called them, I said, I'm ever so sorry, like what's that, is it my mistake, again, that, you know, oh, must be me, must be me, and she said, oh no, it was just, we really loved your application, we'd like to give you an open interview, we think you'd be a really good fit for the team leader. Cue the meltdown of, oh, I'm not good enough, my self-doubt, my, no, not me, there's somebody better than me, oh, not me, possibly, and they were really lovely, and said, just come along, and I said, oh, it's a bit of a long way, and I did all this self-argument of, you know, standing on the cliff edge and talking myself out of taking that leap of faith, and I went, I went for it, interviewed as an open interview, and then had a call saying, we really loved you, we'd like to offer you both positions, this position, this one, or we'd like you for the team leader, but we understand you don't want it, so immediately there was a recognition and a respect of my desires, they'd heard me when I said, I don't think I want the team leader, but they were like, we think you'd be really good, but you know, we're not going to force you, and I went and had a conversation with my husband, and he just kind of, he was, he's really grounding, and I'd never tell him, because I don't want him to get an ego, but you know, he was really brilliant, because he just said, look, you've been, you've worked for managers who are awful, you've been on that receiving end, he said, if you were the team leader, though, you can mould, and you can set the team with the standards, and the expectation, and the, and the kind of, you know, the vision that you've got, and I, and I know that I am not a horrible person, I know that I'm not a bully, I know that I listen to people, I respect them, and it was that, that I went, yeah, what, what am I doubting, actually, and it was just my self-confidence and self-belief, so that started in December 23, and the service went live and opened on the 2nd January 24, so new service, accounting commissioned, worked really hard, used my knowledge of schools to make partnership links, which were very gratefully received, went in and kind of, we teach family support workers and school staff, I made links with IFSTs, so intensive family support teams, just really networked, worked hard, really great service, and then in December of last year, so my boss went, oh, by the way, I'm leaving, and we all went, oh, no, because nobody likes change, and then she said, yeah, so, you know, have you thought about applying for my role, and after I stopped laughing, I went, no, the, my big senior boss scheduled a meeting, and said, oh, have you got time for a quick catch-up, and immediately I was like, oh, am I going to get a telling off, because I did send an email that was a little bit forceful to somebody in the council who hadn't been doing their job properly, and I, and I immediately thought, I'm getting a telling off, and the first thing she said to me was, why haven't you applied for the job, I just want to know, and, and had a really open chat, and I said, well, I, you know, gave my reasons, I don't think this should, well, okay, that's fine, you were recommended by several people, which was just, again, that whole who, who me, like, double take, because that's, that's very opposite to the narrative, often I felt I was reminded that I was not good enough, overtly, or, you know, it was, it was either implicit, or it was overt, you know, oh, I must do better, must try harder in the teaching world, I'm not, oh, not quite there, but this was totally different, this was a, well, yeah, clearly you're good enough to do it, so I am denied, and then I, ironically, I shared the job in the group, because I truly believed there was somebody else out there who was better than me, well, of course there would be, so somebody else is going to be better, and when I interviewed, and they interviewed externals as well, and, and I think when I got the job, and the feedback I've got from the teams is that we're so glad it's you, because you've been through it, like, you understand the systems, you know the job, you're not going to ask us to do something that is not realistic, and that was their worry of somebody coming in and not knowing, and so I started that officially on the 13th of January this year, and it has been a baptism of fire, but, you know, it's just, I think all of my inverted comma soft skills, which are, I would say, the best skills that we've got as teachers, have just served me so well, I've already made links, I'm now in charge of three teams who cover three different geographic, geographical areas, so I need to, I need to make those relationships with commissioning services, I need to make the relationships with other resources in the areas, and, and actually that's, I think, what my strength is, you know, drama teacher, ex-drama teacher, I never, although ironically, I was always behind the scenes, my background is in directing, so I don't, I'm not one for limelight, I don't want to be on the stage doing it, I just want to be there pushing other people, going, go on, you can do it, and I think that's, that's where I am now, the teaching part of helping, it's still there, I've done a lot of direct client work, and I think the listening skills as well of teachers, a lot of the clients I've worked with up to this point have needed a sounding board, they've needed a safe space, they've needed somebody to hold space for them, and I will openly say to them, I'm not a counsellor, I'm not a trained counsellor, and actually what I've realised is that's not what they need, they need somebody who is kind of a professional friend, who can hear what they're saying, who doesn't judge them, who can say a bit of reframing, often my clients will quote back to me and say, well you know that thing you said to me, and I go, oh god, oh yeah, no, I did say it, but wow, that's, I didn't realise what an impact it had on you. Techniques I used with kids, I had one client who really struggled to organise her thoughts, so you know, we talked about white boards, and we talked about the top five, you know, what are your top five priorities, take things, do a brain dump, number them one to ten, what number can you cope with, right, it's one to ten, everything else, push it back if you need to, and she says to me, I went and bought my white board Sarah, I did this, and actually it's changed the way she's been able to structure her thinking, and I just think, well I know actually, had I not been a teacher, had I not worked with a wide range of individuals who needed adaptations, who just couldn't digest because well this is the way you need to learn it, I don't think I'd be as good as I am at my job, and I, and again, I say that without ego, I say that with security, I know I'm good at what I do, and that is, and that is a feeling that I don't think I ever truly had, or I had it but I didn't, don't think I believed it, whilst in education, whereas now I'm like no, do you know what, I can do this, so that, that it could be perimenopause, it could be anything, I, it could be a combination, but it's a really nice place to be. 

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Thank you. I'm a gog, Sarah, I've got to remind myself that I've got to ask questions. I know, I'm sat here listening, like I'm listening to an episode. 

I am. And I've just written, how empowered are you? I'm like, I honestly thought, oh I'll just pause this while I go and put the kettle on and listen to it when I come back. Jesus. 

So on that empowered note, everything you've just said there were just fantastic. So you know what I'm going to ask you, don't you? You know, I'm going to ask you about your sliding doors moment. And when, when I have a pre-recorded chat with the guests, they agonize for hours. 

So what's your sliding doors moment, Sarah? Well, again, I have agonized for hours and, and I kind of was thinking of, oh, the really deep things. And actually I'd like to share one from this weekend, because again, I've reflect really reflected since we've chatted. And, and I think I've missed a lot of them. 

I think I've had so many that I, but I didn't necessarily take a moment, but this weekend was a real sliding doors moment. And one I'm, I'm really pleased that happened. I just messaged my sister on Friday night, see how she is. 

Cause she's recently had a baby and she's all sorts of trouble where he's been diagnosed with an allergy to cow's milk. And you know, it's, it's quite, quite a no sleep zone. And she's also got a six-year-old. 

So my niece and I just said, well, do you want me to have my niece for the weekend? Me and my husband, you know, and she said, no, I don't want to impose. And I said, oh, just send her over. So my niece, my husband went to pick my niece up quite late or about nine o'clock on Friday night as a last minute, really last minute. 

I'd planned to binge watch the traitors this weekend and stay in my pajamas and possibly have a cheeky glass or something. Well, how that changed because my niece turned up Saturday. She's only six. 

And so, you know, she's got to be entertained. I took her out and we went and had them a breakfast and I bought her breakfast and I took her to a charity shop and she was allowed to choose something. And we did her spellings. 

Obviously once a teacher, always a teacher, we did all those lovely things. And then in the evening, we watched some pro you know, programs that she wanted to watch, some kiddie films. She stayed over again and she, and then it was dropped home on the Sunday afternoon. 

And, and I know, and I've had a wonderful weekend. And as she was going, she said, see you next time. Bye. 

I love you, Auntie Sarah. And it just melted my heart. I love her dearly and she's my world. 

And I know for a fact, for a fact, if I was still teaching, I would have missed all of that because I would have had the panic of must rest my weekend. I must protect it. Even if I'm sat doing nothing, I need to have a trauma recovery moment. 

And my gosh, I would have missed out. I've had the best weekend ever. And, and I'm so grateful. 

And here's to many more because I'm now saying yes. Um, when, when I was a teacher, I was saying no, and that's not the case. Wow. 

It's ironic that you've just painted what would have been the worst weekend of plans and now the absolute golden. Oh, that's brilliant. Do you know what? I've loved every single minute of the time we've spent with you. 

You've been an absolute belter. There's no two ways about it. You've been captivating, fascinating and inspiring, which is all we ever ask for. 

You've been honest. You've been reflective. And I do apologise for part dying halfway through it with coughs and colds and that kind of thing. 

Please forgive me. But Sarah Cowan on behalf of myself and Sarah Dunwood, thank you so much for your time. Brilliant episode and thank you friend. 

Thank you. Thank you. Hello friend. 

Welcome back. Um, I'm going to try and get through this epilogue without coughing and spluttering and apologies for my coughs during that podcast. I loved that and I'll tell you why I enjoyed it because it wasn't critical incidents. 

It wasn't just this happened in the last six months. Sarah reflected over her career, her 18 year long career and how she had lost herself in terms of boundaries, in terms of expectations, in terms of who she was. And I think many of our listeners will relate to that to be perfectly honest. 

What did you think of it? Completely, completely recognised what she was describing in, in terms of who I was and who I became. And I think I've talked about this previously, like maybe on a podcast, maybe just in one of our phone calls, I don't know, where you don't realise you've lost your sense of self until you've come out of the other side of something. And Sarah alluded to something about it when she came out, when she had space to breathe, that's when she realised how nuts it had got. 

And I think that's, that's really true when you're in crisis, when you've, and you don't necessarily realise you're in crisis when you're through the other side of something. It's like grief, isn't it? That when you come through the other side of something, it's only when you feel like you're past it and you breathe out and, and, and let it go, that then actually the enormity of it can hit you and it, and it actually can be quite upsetting. And for me, I, I've always said my identity was so tied up in the, in the teacher and senior leader that I was. 

I was that person who, we had lettings at our school that, that kept the school open until 10 o'clock, Monday through Thursday of an evening. And there were some nights when, when James was much older, where I didn't leave that building until nine o'clock in the evening because, so completely recognised myself in what she was talking about. And it's really caused me to reflect actually in the, in the 10 minute space that we've, we've had of who drove that? Was that me or was that, was that them? Yeah, I think it's both. 

I don't think it's an either or. It is really, really strange to reflect upon a period of your life where you have lost who you should be, who you were. And sometimes I compare who I was when, when I went in at the age of 21 and who I was when I came out at 41.

And obviously life happens to you and you change. Well, that 21 year old would not have put up with half of what was happening to her personally and professionally. So it's normal. 

It is normal to, to, to lose yourself. Your priorities change, your pressures change, particularly if you've got a parent, you're a parent, you're a homeowner, you've got bills to pay, you've got a whole different, you're a different person. When I was starting teaching at 21, I was living with my mum and dad. 

My biggest priority was what I was going to wear. It's the level of self-justification that you, that you realise that you've given to yourself over years and years and years and years of, well, I have to do this now and this needs to be done now and I need to do it this way and, and, and all of that sort of stuff. And it's really easy with hindsight to look at it and go, I wouldn't do that now. 

But even you and I have had a conversation very recently about the fact that it's only in the last 12 months that I've stopped putting ridiculous self-imposed death lines on myself for things that I don't, because that's still there. We champion self-gaslighting, this constant dialogue in our heads, justifying this, beating ourselves up about that, our inner self-talk when you are in that kind of culture and environment, it's scary, scary. Yeah, completely, completely. 

And it's, I think what, what struck me with Sarah is the fact that she talked about the work that she's done, that she's had the therapy and, and, and proper counselling and is now very aware. So, and I think one of the challenges of becoming self-aware is that when you do become self-aware, you start then reflecting back over things that, that you have done, that you've lived, that you've experienced and you start questioning them through a different lens and you can almost spiral into beating yourself up over something that you didn't know that was happening back then because you weren't self-aware. And so you have to do some serious work on going, well, that's how it was. 

Those were the circumstances. I cannot change that. I can change how I react and respond in the future if something like that happens again, because otherwise you could be in a perpetual, oh yeah, self-flagellation. 

And for me, I, I just slightly changed the wording that you used. It's not how it was, it's who I was. That was who I was back then. 

And I, I'm in touch with myself at different ages in my life. When I said to you, what would the 21 year old version of me do? What did the 41 year old do? What did the 52? Do you know who's my best version of myself? My 80 year old version of myself. I turned to her. 

I turned to my 80 year old version of myself all the time. Interesting. I do something similar, but it's not the, the future self version of me.

It's my dear departed grandma. And I, and I, I think I posted something on Facebook. There's, there's a glorious photo of my, of my nana and granddad coming off a plane in Malta, I think, but it looks dad glam. 

It looks rat pack kind of. They were, they were all dolled up because you used to do that in the sixties, I believe. But one of the things that I really valued once I went into adulthood was, was nipping over to my nana and granddads and they, they said it as it was. 

You talk to them and they would, they would somewhat inappropriately at times because of the, the generation, but they said it as they was, as it was. And I do sometimes have an, an imagined conversation with, with grandma or granddad, or I'll go to Crosby beach and sit at the Ironman and, and have the conversation with, with in my head, with one of them, because that, that's very closely attached to them. And, and I think you're right, that wisdom of somebody else, whether it's real or imagined is actually a good. 

To me, the 80 year old version of myself has got limited time left. She's got a significantly limited time left. A working life is done. 

Kids are all right. The pressures in this perceived version I have of myself. And I really question what I'm going through now. 

Would she really give this any head space? Would she put up with it? Would she turn around and say, what on earth are you losing sleep over that for you idiot? Because I think they say 85% of the things we worry about never comes to fruition anyway. And I spend a lot of time in her head space. This is drivel. 

This is low level nonsense. Somebody said this about you or somebody is asking you to do this and you're not happy or apologetically. No. 

Or unapologetically. Yes. And it, and it goes back, doesn't it? We've people to hold over us who are not even in our space and, or are in our space. 

And we're, we don't know the conversations. We don't know, but, but it's, it's that old thing, isn't it? Your opinion of me isn't of my concern. It shouldn't be, but it's, it's very easy to say that, but it's difficult to live it. 

But when you're in that version of yourself that Sarah talked about, and, and we always have this expression in our house. As soon as somebody says other people, well, what will other people think? Who are these other people? When you're in that school and you have to stay late, or you have to get your books marked, or what will other people think of me fully? Who exactly are these other people? And if you sit with it, that's where you self-gaslight yourself because the other people is you. You're the other person. 

What you are really saying is, what will I think of myself if I leave early? What will I think of myself if I don't get these books marked? We create this sense of self-judgment with these imaginary people who are standing in judgment of us. And it's ourselves. And if I'm okay with leaving school at 10 past three, that's the, that's the real question I need to ask myself. 

How will this be perceived? By who? By me. I'm all right with it. But when you're in the mixer and you are frightened, or it's, it's the boiled frog scenarios happened, you can't, you haven't got the clarity to do that because nine times out of 10, what it was like with me when I was that version, I was that time poor, that exhaustion she talked about at the weekend. 

My to-do list never even got done. I used to have a to-do list to sort my to-do list out. I didn't have time to self-reflect. 

And I think that's why our pit ponies are able to be so articulate and so on the money about where they're at now, because they've had time. All I needed to do when I was in that state was make it till 10 past three, make it till bedtime for the kids, do this. I was running at a million miles an hour. 

And do you know what? If I was not where I'm sat now on this podcast, do you know what I'd be saying to you if me and you were in school, you'd need to listen to that pit pony podcast, Sharon. Do you know what my response would have been? I haven't got time. I haven't got time to listen to those two rattling on and all of those people who've made it on the other side. 

This podcast will trigger me. I think time's a really interesting concept as well, because we see this asked on the group. When does the guilt stop? When does this stop? When do the nightmares stop? When do the dreams stop? And I think it's really important, particularly for anybody who's listening to this who isn't out and who is considering coming out, that it does take time on the other side. 

You might be busy. You might get yourself another job. You might do multiple income streams like I did and tout your skills around for a variety of different things, but fundamentally there needs to be time to think, to reflect, to move through it, to let go of the stuff that's happened previously, because otherwise you'll end up repeating it again and again. 

And so I think it's important for anybody who's listening who is looking at coming out, that the coming out of the school, you're not immediately, I can't click my fingers, but you're not immediately going to magically be fixed in that moment, in that day. It's going to take months. It's like anything that's massive. 

Does your grief stop the day after the funeral? Do you heal the minute you signed your divorce papers? Do you heal the minute you've done your last day in a school? It's life. And I think the older we get, we are in one of the best generations of our time with social media. It's our biggest curse and our greatest blessing. 

We can learn so much about our mental health, our self-awareness, just from Instagram, scrolling through Reels and TikTok. If you get who you're following right, there are pockets of brilliance coming into your phone on a nightly basis. There are books that I have read that have changed my life that weren't written when I was 21. 

We didn't have the emotional literacy and understanding of how our brains work. We're in a golden era in many respects about what's out there. And if you're listening to our podcast and there is a language that's used all the way through, we're talking about toxicity, gaslighting, boiling the frog.

We're talking about trauma problems, all of these things. If this language is alien to you and you think trauma is what happens if you stand on a landmine and that's PTSD and you only get it in the army. No, one of the things you can be doing if you are in the classroom now is stepping into this world of self-awareness of how our mind works. 

And there is a wealth of stuff out there. You've just mentioned Mel Robbins. We talk about the chimp paradox all the time.

There are so many different things you can be doing whilst you're in there. Because had I have had that stuff available to me, I think it might have been a very, very different story. And if you have it available to you in the classroom, that could be empowerment from within, not how empowered Sarah Cowan felt out of it. 

Because had she have had that stuff while she was in there, because I'll tell you now, that woman loved teaching. She loved those kids. She's getting as much joy in her position now as head of domestic abuse. 

But I wonder, had she have had the level of self-discovery within, where her path would have taken her. And I do think it's possible. I do think it's possible. 

And I think it's possible for people to be in toxic relationships. But what they tend to do is when they have that self-discovery, they leave. So I think it was a good episode. 

I think it was a very interesting one. It was a walkthrough on somebody who'd really had some self-discovery, reflection and realisation, like a lot of our pit ponies do. She was a great guest. 

She was really, her energy was fantastic to be around. I hope you enjoyed it much as I did, Sarah. I did. 

I forgot we were recording at points. I genuinely forgot we were recording. I was just listening. 

Completely engrossed. And then we'd be like, oh, I'm hoping Sharon's going to ask a question here. Yeah, I'd look at us both and you were still on mute and she'd been talking for 15 minutes. 

She was like that. I think she needed a glass of water. She'd dried up. 

No, it was a belting episode. Really enjoyed it. And Sarah, just thanks to our listeners for staying loyal, tuning in, spreading the word. 

And we'll see you again on the next episode of the Pit Pony Podcast. See you on the other side, pal. Tra. 

Thanks for staying with us during another great episode of the Pit Pony Podcast. And on behalf of myself, Sarah Dunwood, Mike Roberts at Making Digital Real, we wish you all the very best and we'll see you soon. If you wish to contact me directly for a support session or a clarity call for your next steps, please find my link in the comments below. 

See you soon.