080 - Resignation - The Fear, the Finances, and the Freedom

In this special episode, Sharon and Sarah hold space for one of the biggest topics in education - the mystery, the pressure and the fear around teacher resignation dates.

Why do teachers only get three windows a year to resign? What happens if you miss the May 31st deadline? And why does this system leave so many feeling trapped, anxious and powerless?

From the realities of the Burgundy Book to the emotional and financial toll of leaving a “job for life,” this conversation is honest, supportive and packed with insight. Sharon and Sarah share their own experiences, the tough love advice they give inside the Pit Pony community, and the practical steps teachers can take to reclaim control of their lives and careers.

They explore:

• What resignation windows actually mean
• The fear of missing the deadline - and what to do if you do
• How to plan financially and emotionally before you leave
• Why guilt, shame and loyalty often hold teachers back
• When it’s too soon (or too late) to resign

A grounded, empowering conversation for anyone standing at the edge of a big decision.

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Edited with finesse by our Podcast Super Producer, Mike Roberts of Making Digital Real

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Thank you to our sponsors Little Voices. Are you a teacher with a passion for drama, music and performance or feeling stuck in the classroom? Little Voices gives you the chance to step into a role where you can truly inspire young minds through the arts. This is a company I know well and admire. 

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Plus, with the support of a nationwide franchise network behind you, you can run your own successful business, doing what you love, while teaching in a way that truly fits your life. Hello and welcome to the Pick Pony podcast with myself Sharon Cawley and me Sarah Dunwood. In which we talk to teachers from all walks of life who exited the classroom from what they thought was a job for life and thrived on the other side of teaching.

Hello lovely listeners and welcome to another episode of the Pick Pony podcast. And on this special episode, Sharon and Sarah are going to be holding some space to talk about one of the biggest in the world of education because very often, Sarah, you and I can start to chew the flat and you will say things like, yes but this also applies to lots of other industries and this is commonplace in this sector. We are going to talk about something that that doesn't apply to. 

It has remained one of the biggest mysteries to date as to why teachers have certain opportunities to resign three times a year the teacher's resignation dates. That's what we're going to talk about today. We are going to talk about this concept of why it is a big spike in our Facebook group when it comes to resignation dates. 

Now before we start, Sarah, just frame for the non-educator out there and explain what we mean about these resignation dates, these resignation windows because in any other walk of life someone would go, I'm resigning, I'm going to put my notice in, I'll serve my notice. It's not the case in teaching and then we'll dig into different types of people and why they're resigning but talk us through this window of opportunity for resignation please. Okay so most schools doesn't apply necessarily to independent schools and it doesn't apply to some multi-academy trusts but most schools operate on the resignation periods that are defined in the Burgundy book which is you can resign by no later than the 31st of October to leave on the 31st of December in any given year. 

You can resign on the 28th of February or the 29th in a leap year to leave on the 30th of April but most schools will honour that as whatever the end of the Easter holidays is depending on and then the final one is May the 31st to leave on the 31st of August. So I want to go to something with that because that's written in Burgundy book and contracts as two months in the autumn, two months resignation period in the autumn term, two months resignation period in the spring term and three months in the summer term and some people get themselves mixed up with that and think if they resign at the end of September they're giving two months notice and that is not correct. It's two months from the resignation date i.e. the 31st of October to the 31st of December so it's not a floating two-month period or three-month period and I think the critical bit for me with that is that I think many schools if you miss that resignation date they are harsh about it and will say no you can't go now until the next until the next resignation period and there are some schools that will allow you to negotiate out within a couple of days but there's no expectation that a school leader would have to do that. 

It's completely discretionary but I think the big one for me is when people, I will talk about this in more depth, when people dither at the May half term on the 31st of May and decide oh I don't know if I want to blah blah blah and they don't then actually they are then stuck for June, July, August, September, October, November, December it's a seven-month period then is the next time that they can that they can exit the school legitimately without that discretion having to be applied and being released or whatever which is extraordinary. It's truly extraordinary. I'm with the 31st of May and I decide to resign on the 7th of June. 

I'm there till when? 31st of October. 31st of December because I've gone into the 31st of October window haven't I? Yeah if I've not resigned by the 31st of May anytime after that I am there till the 31st of December unless discretion is applied. So if I find the job of my dreams on the 10th of June I can only tell my next employer that I can start in January the following year. 

Okay so we can see straight away can't we why people feel very pressured at three points in the year because there's no fluid flow, ebb and flow when it comes to resignation and actually a six-week notice period isn't even on the books anyway with teaching because it's a minimum of two months. So is it any wonder why people feel trapped and pressured to make these decisions particularly and this is what sits around them. The anxiety and the panic that comes and spikes in our Facebook group when it comes to these periods I've missed the 31st window is because they are so unhappy and they've no other job to go to. 

That's one of the main pieces isn't I want to get out I know I'm trapped for X amount of months if I don't go now but I've nothing else secured. So that that's a big one and also people who are resigning because they know they're leaving the profession that's a huge one as well and resigning and I'm never going back to teaching that there is so much pressure on teachers when it comes to resignation dates and fear. Oh yeah and fear and and that fear sits for me you've just you've just got to the nub of it no other job to go to is is one of the critical things because then you you go into what's my baseline can I afford to keep the house some people have got no flexibility they're a single parent they haven't got family nearby a whole variety of things or they're in the process of finding a job outside of teaching and that in and of itself is probably another episode because that is not an easy process and I think in some respects I'm not minimising the challenge of finding a teaching job but it is a known quantity in terms of what the process is.

You apply if you get shortlisted you go for interview you generally know what the interview is going to look like and you also know that you're going to know on the day whether or not you've got that job um and most most teaching applications you can you've at least got a solid starting point that that you can tweak and adjust from they're in the flow and I think people underestimate either underestimate how challenging it is finding a job in a in a different sector and and also the scale and scope of what they are going to need to apply for and therefore have got a real balancing act which is almost impossible in terms of how much time it is going to take you whilst you are still in teaching in order to be able to do those applications or um you don't and you come out and you take a punt and you hope that you find something and I do think that's an episode in and of itself that whole process and just to just to touch on that people think it's A or B I'm either resigning I've got another teaching job to go to or I'm resigning and I've been able to do some real lining up so I have got another right if we go back to the basic principles of the original pit pony video all those many many years ago do not start to consider resigning next steps jobs unless you have done the basic basic rule of thumb where you know your finances now you might be considering resigning because you are absolutely on your knees you your mental health is on the floor I will guarantee you that if you know your figures you will be automatically more empowered than you are without knowing them because part of the reason we feel trapped is because of that salary and I have had some conversations Sarah with people who are in real emotional crisis over this resigning what am I going to do what can I afford to do and I still after all this time do the basic principles with them don't get on a phone call with me until you can tell me exactly what you need to keep a roof over your head then what are you actually earning that's another piece I do with people what are you earning well I'm there for four days a week right and what are you bringing home I'm bringing home 1800 pound a month okay right let's break that down over four four weeks so it might be what 450 it's 110 pound a day right 110 pound a day so it's 450 pound a week so if you stick with that 450 and but I don't work on a Friday you see I don't work on a Friday and then I start to push back again do me a favour estimate just generally estimate how many hours you've worked as that four day a week because I'm not going with four day a week anymore and then they'll go oh well I get up in the morning and I'm in school for eight o'clock I leave at five and then I maybe do another three hours when I get in at night okay so you're in eight nine ten eleven twelve one two three four five you don't have a dinner so there's nine hours and then you do another three okay so you're working 11 hours a day and believe me a listener if you are not in education that isn't even that much when it comes to an overworking teacher they can they can wipe your eye with 11 hours a day I'll tell you that for nothing and I might do a couple of might do a couple of hours on a Sunday so let's have a look at this on average would you say and that's for somebody who's doing four days a week 450 pound a month would you say 60 hours you've worked 55 55 hours okay can you do me a favour can you divide 450 for me please no not 450 are you doing a month or a year a month or a week okay 450 please and can you divide your 450 pound by your 55 hours yeah you're on eight pound an hour love oh my god I'm working for eight pound yeah you're working for eight pound an hour okay but let's go back to it you're a teacher and you're on 450 pound a week yes you don't know whether or not to resign you don't know whether let's go to 450 pound again shall we and let's say you're now working 30 hours a week you're looking for a job of 15 pound an hour in the interim to get you out and meet that resignation date with the greatest of respect there are jobs you can walk into tomorrow that don't need a 12 week it's the civil service or 13 weeks because it's prison service you can go and get a job working in retail that will take you on tomorrow potentially for 12 pound an hour or you can go and work at Marks and Spencer's or you can find some other interim even if it's supply okay find an interim bridge to get you out and then you can start to apply for what you want to do it doesn't have to be an all or nothing because it always comes down to what do I need to bring in and then of course I have the conversation and they're not the bread winner they've got a husband and all the bills are bloody met anyway so I throw my pen up in the air and go for crying out loud anyhow that's the fear of being trapped I cannot leave one job until I've got another and I'm trapped by these resignation dates and I'm becoming incredibly ill if on the 30th by the 31st of May you are in that dilemma and you've done your figures and you you can see a light at the end of the tunnel because you've already started to go on indeed and put the word out for your local Marks and Spencer's or your Amazon or there's a woman the other day she lined herself up with a great job delivering prescriptions pharmacy driving around 14 pound an hour set yourself up and get your life bolt it's it's basic pit pony stuff right back again to the original video because I think it's isn't isn't this though to do with the fact that um excuse me as teachers we go into a job thinking it's it's the job it's the job for life um whether we've come in straight out of university whether we're a career changer and we've we've decided that that's the next phase we we are I think as a profession we see the the job as the anchor point and therefore you can't you can't lift that anchor point unless you've got another anchor to put down there's a real psychology behind it isn't it but I think I see a lot of advice in the group where people people say exactly this that the first job out doesn't need to be your next forever job it can be a stop gap and actually if you don't like it then you find something else and you don't have to stay at that because because there's a huge amount of untraining to do in your own mind about well I go and get another job well it's not for me I've given I've given it a couple of months but but oh do I resign yes because I'll tell you from now the younger generations are they're out they're out they just go I I'm I'm done I've done my notice I'm I'm off this is not for me how is in many ways what we're doing is we're conflating two things we're calling it a job I'm going to resign from my job I'm going to resign from a role actually they think they're resigning from their profession they're resigning forever and I I know like friends of mine who've got kids and they they hop in between marketing agencies okay so they don't like the job with this marketing agency so they go and get another job in another marketing marketing agency actually that's what you're doing you're leaving a school you're leaving one school you're not leaving the job you're not leaving the profession necessarily you are resigning from that school okay and there are going to be so many other opportunities available to you now okay we have this huge panic because we've gaslit ourselves particularly the gen x teachers that if you've got a break in service that you can't explain why that means you're never going to be employed ever again because rightly so employees say well what did you do between these two dates if you're going back into the profession well I left my job and I explored something else I've not committed an act of treason against you know the Roman Empire of teaching where I'm never going to be employed again and as long as I can show where I was working and what I was doing and yes your last reference if you're going back into teaching will always be the last school you worked in so we'll talk about references another time I'm not going down that mine mine shaft at the minute um but this idea of being absolutely frightened to death of putting your resignation in particularly around that 31st of May because you've nothing else lined up then line something up pretty quickly because you can I think there's something else that I think there's something else there about timing as well because again comes up on the group loads at the October one for going in December and the February one for going going at Easter is people going well well will will this school that I'm applying to think badly of me well will my school think badly of me for going mid-year at the school that you're applying to no because they need somebody the school that you are leaving there are three fixed resignation points for specifically this reason they expect that people are going to go at those resignation points and it's all designed to allow the next person to be in place for the next point in time um and I think I I do I do want to reflect on the things that are keeping people from putting their resignation in because it's not always about finding the next job it's not always about the money it's not always about money it's about the fact that they think if they particularly got an exam class and they're going to leave they have ruined those children's lives that's it how can how can I leave my exam class so I'm going to stay in a job where I'm miserable I'm going to put my my own needs second right with the greatest of respect I'm an English teacher I've got a year 11 exam class you know there's loads of me there's loads of me there's loads of people who know the syllabus you can go in and can teach it and you're part of a department so actually that does that does hang people in doesn't it and and I've had a conversation with with somebody I know in in recent months who was who was exactly wrangled that with a variety of life circumstances going on around them that would have would have had any normal person on their backside and they were just about clinging on with with their fingernails and and it was that it was all about well I'm letting the kids down I've got exam groups I've got this I've got that we're signed off with stress very very legitimately and genuinely and we're still doing work and sending into the school and it and and it did come down to a few of us sitting with them and saying uh no pack it in um and also if you go there will be somebody in your spot before you could even conceive of them being in your spot they will get someone we are not irreplaceable and we like to think that we are good you're not that good that we couldn't bring somebody else in and it's really hard to have that tough talk with yourself because we are used to putting everybody everybody's needs before ours the kids our own family and that's a piece of work that needs to come out of it that and it is the true definition of self-care how do you think so low of yourself it's like schrodinger's self-esteem you think so low of yourself that you're not putting yourself first but you think so highly of yourself that you're completely irreplaceable it's it's it's all about that the language and that's been sat around what we've been taught and what we've been told even to the point where people like how do i resign do i send a letter in what do i put in an email what now i always give this advice never burn your bridges on the way because you don't know on the way up you might need them again on the way down you are basically putting in a factual please accept my resignation as of this date from this establishment thank you and i had i think that's that's that's really critical about the dates that you put on your letter because people have fallen foul of this you might be leaving on the 19th of december when term ends but your official resignation date is the 31st of december if you if you cut short your own resignation period there have been instances where schools have gone okay well thank you you've gone on the 19th and that's what your letter will remain in days yeah correct absolutely so and i think i would i would signpost to um union websites because all of all of the unions whether they're they're um the the main ones or um the more specialist ones for senior leadership whatever they've all got guidance and templates for how to write a resignation letter and it is short and sweet um it's not it's not the place to air your grievances or anything else just keep it factual keep it keep it you will have an exit interview in some cases where you could raise what you wanted to raise um it's entirely the circumstances under which you're resigning email them put it in writing and that's it they've not acknowledged my resignation so have they read it yeah they will have read it they've just been rude quite frankly um which should compare anything but that's that's also something isn't it have they accepted it they don't have to accept it you are not a slave you have submitted your resignation the only time they can refuse to accept it is if you in in teaching for us if you've missed that um but even then they're not refusing they're just saying well it's for the next it's for the next window so they can't do it but i think something interesting came up on the group this week where somebody had resigned and then decided they wanted to retract it all right days couple of days after the resignation window and the employer has said no you've resigned and there is and and i think there was there was a degree of upset about well well why why won't they why won't they let me withdraw that resignation with again they're under in the same way as they are obligated to accept your resignation they're actually under no obligation for you for you to retract it because the whole the whole system goes awry there doesn't it i mean what ours does it is and then what sits around it is they've told people they've told my class they've they've they've written to parents yeah we've got to find a way of taking ourselves out of this and remind ourselves and empower ourselves that this is a contract of employment it's not a them it's not a me i'm an employee number that's if you're in a pretty toxic school if you're in a good school and if you're in a lovely little family unit your head teacher will want to know why talk to me about it is there anything i can do to keep you what they might offer you part-time because you are flagging up that you want to go and all sorts can sit around that um i do i do want to interject though in terms of um you know when when somebody resigns that that is a resignation of the contract between that person and the employer um in i think it's peculiar to teach him but there there is something for me about it being to a degree to a point within the control of the teacher of when and how they speak to their classes about sorry does that work i i no i don't i don't think there is an expect i don't think there's anything statutory but i think as a courtesy oh yes this shouldn't just be an announcement and and i've had it in schools where i've worked in where i've i've specifically i've told the staff after telling the head and said specifically please can you not mention this to the children yet because i want to speak to my groups i'm going to do it over the next week and then a group has turned up at my classroom and one particular member of staff has gone oh do you know do you know mrs donwood's leaving and the kids are all coming and upset and that i think is appalling i just think that's really bad form but but it's also to be expected people are people they like something to to tittle tattle about can we go to something about resigning when stressed oh yeah because i've seen it again we see that in the group when people are at their their their lowest points or a low point and they're really struggling and they're signed off with work-related stress and the number of posts i see where where people will say i'm off with work-related stress um i can't take it anymore i'm going to resign um two things for me with that you never make a life-changing decision when you are when you are in that mental state of health you just don't unless you've been screwed on a support plan and then you do and then you do yes but when when something is within your control and and it's the because because unlike most professions we as teachers we do actually have very generous occupational sick leave and and i know it isn't always the case but actually a period of absence in relation to work-related stress with the right um with the right strategies and all the rest of it might actually be enough that you are well enough to go back to that to that job or that something changes and things are put in place whereas if you resign you've thrown away that that occupational entitlement um and put yourself in a time sensitive position in terms of having to find the next thing whilst you're still not well and still trying to recover so i think one of the things i i would always and i have always counselled people about is don't don't resign in haste yeah don't resign in haste make sure it's a really considered decision particularly if it's to do with your own mental health it might feel like it's the thing that you need or want to do to make it go away but it might actually be a decision that in three months time you go why did i do that because i had put some air between the tyres and actually it is an expression start to heal you can be doing things being off on work-related stress we've talked about this till we blew in the face sarah you are off with work-related stress that is the time you work incredibly hard on yourself that's the time when you are going to the gym that's the time when you are on mini breaks that is the time when you do all of those pilate classes and counselling and occupational health to get yourself back in a position where you can then make that decision and i think this goes to the it goes to the typical type of teachers and their personalities and where they come from and the types of people who are attracted into our organisation now it's interesting we spoke on a generations okay and generation x and then i think it would be fair to say that the youngest generation who could be teaching currently are not millennials generation where they're are they gen z's gen z's are 1997 to 2012 and then 2013 is generation alpha so 2013 so some some of the gen z's my son's a gen z so he could definitely could be teaching so we've got these generations within now we've already made a blanket statement that gen z's walk okay they hop between jobs and they do they do i wonder if the generation z teachers do the or they get sucked into this this guilt this mindset about resigning i don't know do they walk what do you i i'm seeing and and and i can never tell from the post because um as much as we know who we don't necessarily know any details about them but i am seeing um an increasing number of of ects who who the wrangle is i i i am really struggling with with the whole ect thing and actually seriously considering sucking it in and walking away um and but then but then i'm going to reflect back on on my own training back in 1994 95 that because i did a two-year i did a two-year b. ed and was qts on the outcome of that and was also in that weird little window of time where there was no probationary year so you literally qualified and went straight in and so i had to do three teaching practises over two years and by the end of my second one i was ready to quit i was ready to quit they were the most appalling teaching practises and it was only for the fact that a couple of my friends were kind of three four years ahead of me and their advice to me was stick it out get the qualification and then if it's still not right when you qualified go and do something else yeah but you've always got it um and and i and actually then my third teaching practise was amazing and then the next uh 23 years and and six months of my career were the best thing i ever did um so i so i'm not sure i know the ect is much more challenging um i know there's there's there's a lot more pressures on i somebody very close to me isn't has come through that so i know it but i also know that there are schools that get that right for their ects as well um i don't know i don't know whether there's pattern i don't know whether the younger ones are more and i don't mean that in a derogatory way because i am getting on a bit but whether whether that younger generation of teachers are less inclined to stick with something that isn't right for them and are a bit more self-assured and prepared to make those decisions i don't know got healthier boundaries maybe i don't know no answer to that question we don't know but it is a big emotional and psychological pressure and fear this this idea of resigning some people just do it yeah but at the other end at the other end take away the the younger entrance or the newer entrance to the profession those people who've been in it longer then get stuck with another thing which is the the mythical value of the pension which yes it's a good pension but wait but if i go then i'm not going to get a full pension and and it's like well actually if you carry on and i've talked about this on another podcast i've seen too many colleagues pass away either just before they were about to take their pension or within six months of them taking the pension so the pension isn't it shouldn't be the insurmountable object if you are desperately unhappy in your job because your job takes up at least in real terms it should take up a third of your day 24 hours a day monday to friday for teachers that's not the reality it takes up at least 50 percent of their life of their of what you know so the pension shouldn't be it is my is my take on that which is very easy to say when you've got 23 years worth of pension right country yeah but i didn't give it a second thought even though i had a plan that i was going to work for another 10 years and i would have had another 10 years in my pension when i went it was not even a it was i need to get out now or i am done yeah but if you think about it if we if we go back to this this generational thing that we're doing so we're generation x 1965 to 1980 all right and then i i was raised by baby boomers which are 1946 to 1964 okay i was drilled into me i had it drilled into me that the pension is everything okay these are people who pension was everything get a mortgage get a mortgage get a pension have a job for life the rhetoric and the work ethic in my upbringing was such that the job was everything i've talked about this before about having a mum who worked every single saturday morning in the bookies in newton on newton high street so we could go away for two weeks in tokyo every year right so we lost our mum at the weekend dad used to look after us or we'd go to auntie mary's and that kind of thing so my mum was working every single saturday for i think was a week in beverly park in painting where's the logic in that hmm so for 49 saturdays we don't see her for seven days but that was the you go on holiday you're getting mortgage you get a car you avoid hp you don't get yourself in debt you don't get things on credit you save for things and then you buy them we are off that generation and then if we're not careful we're passing it down to our children which is why leaving everything we've been told is the most sensible and the most safe and secure thing you're doing sits you in this reality i am putting the people i love the most at risk which is my family by resigning from this job and i am going against the advice of my parents who i equally love so there is this huge emotional guilt and fear and shame that sits with you suddenly going i can't do this anymore which must mean i can't cope therefore i'm weak i can't keep up with the workload therefore i am lazy i am not good enough and i have failed at the one thing i loved doing the most in the world so even though we've talked about but just put a factual resignation and go and have a look at for a job in marks and spencers in the interim you are talking to two people who who are empaths through and through we really we spend so many hours with the vulnerable people in our profession believe me i can spot you in a crowded room a mile off get it and i understand it but just hearing it on a podcast and being framed in that way that you feel you are letting the people you love the most down your dependence and you are going against the advice of your parents who you admire we understand however put your friggin resignation in before you become so unwell those kids are looking after you anyway and your parents are now worried about you here end of the lesson pal on a side note can i take that can i take you back to the start of the podcast where you referred to us in the third person and i just i'll cast sharon and sarah will be talking about what on earth was that about well you know where that's come from don't you when we're in the car yesterday and ellie referred to herself in the third person oh my goodness yes what did you say i am on your i said yeah what are you doing ellie is deciding what she wants for her to record i referred i'm going to refer to us now in the third person from now on we deserve it sharon and sarah what would you i actually only refer to myself and no you didn't you said both of us we've earned it we do what we do does it does it confer some sort of status status you go up the grammatical ladder if you can refer to yourself now in the third person you've hit you've hit the big time i think i might i might try and confuse lord dunwood with that this evening i love tea please 100 percent imagine i go back downstairs do it and he'll do exactly right love yes and sarah would like a cup of tea please he'll go and lock himself in the garage i think i do that i think i when i when i'm um because obviously i've got a master's degree in passive aggressiveness with my kids you know i'm advanced skills level is everything all right no your mum's very annoyed yeah i think i do third person with the kids so i should so i should we're very important people sarah very important people because fundamentally we sit at the this weekend 177 000 hours and hours and hours of support and moderating and keeping that group safe and keeping our gang safe so yes i think we're going to toot our own trumpet because our self-esteem is sorted yeah third person it is from now on i can't sustain it i just who do we think we are 100 percent um but now i think that was i think that was a good one that good one i think that's what we're going to do we will pick we'll pick hot topics that keep coming up and coming up and coming up in the group um suspensions one resignation pain regression is pay progression something that comes up quite a lot yeah but it yeah i'll have a think about it be interesting to get some feedback from listeners this is something they want us to talk about um but yeah i i do think i i'm scouring the group and i do think um that the the podcast is is a is a beautiful platform to educate as well as as give other people's kind of experiences so maybe a little bit more of me and you um i was going to say something really inappropriate then chatting um on a sunday afternoon yeah no don't say i don't say i don't say yeah don't say it don't say it i don't want mike to have to bleep um but yeah there are things that come we're going to i know we've got a big meeting uh coming up i think we've got a hundred members on it on a call with us to get the silence by support campaign up and running so there will be that kind of stuff that's going on we've got ideas for events that we want to run and we want to put on uh next year probably one of the biggest educational events in the world we might do i don't know back of the envelope planning um yeah i might not be the world but you know be record breaking i can assure you i can assure you we'll get we'll get roy castle and the guinness book of records over in norris mcguirter and pout their heads in the room that's that's that's a gen x reference if ever i had one record breakers that was friday was it friday afternoon um and anyway yeah before before crackerjack which i never liked never liked crackerjack didn't like it for some reason um it wasn't my big thing right okay offskate our ellie's messaging obviously she's passed her driving test now hasn't she so i am not needed but she's um i've put her on to the uh the netflix have you seen the ashley madison netflix no no it's brilliant you know what ashley madison is don't you no so ashley madison was a website that you signed up to cheat on your spouse with do you remember you signed up to an ashley madison it was like a dating site and you cheated on your spouse and they hacked the database of all the members i mean we might have to go and watch that honestly sir it's brilliant and ellie's been messaging me all the way through this podcast because she's getting to certain points oh wow so yeah so so let's not forget that let's not forget that we've just done a podcast and bring it to a proper end instead of us rambling right okay thank you listeners sharon and sarah have enjoyed your company this afternoon and sharon and sarah will be back with you with a fabulous episode of the pit pony podcast in the forthcoming weeks with love from sharon and sarah right mate i'll see you on the other side ah thanks for staying with us during another great episode of the pit pony podcast and on behalf of myself sarah dunwood mike roberts at making digital real we wish you all the very best and we'll see you soon if you wish to contact me directly for a support session or a clarity call for your next steps please find my link in the comments below see you soon