087 - Danielle Crossland - Classroom to Bookkeeper

In this episode, Sharon and Sarah are joined by Danielle Crossland, a former secondary maths teacher whose story offers a refreshingly different perspective on leaving the classroom.

Danielle taught for ten years after starting her career in 2012, working in both high schools and sixth-form colleges. Teaching was something she was good at, something she enjoyed at times - but it was never her vocation. And crucially, she knew that early on.

In this honest and wide-ranging conversation, Danielle talks about recognising her limits, refusing to tie her identity or self-worth to a job, and making deliberate choices that put life, family and wellbeing first. She shares what it was really like to step away from teaching, navigate supply work on her own terms, and eventually build a successful bookkeeping practice supporting educators and education-led businesses.

Today, Danielle runs eduAccounts, supporting more than 25 clients - from sole-trader tutors to seven-figure tutoring agencies with large teams - offering bookkeeping and admin support that allows business owners to focus on growth rather than spreadsheets.

This episode explores boundaries, confidence, grief, supply teaching, money mindset, imposter syndrome, and what it looks like to build a career that genuinely fits your life - not the other way around.

A thoughtful, empowering listen for anyone questioning whether teaching is really meant to be “for life.”

Find Danielle here:
Website: eduAccounts | Expert Bookkeeping & Admin Support for Educators
LinkedIn: Danielle Crossland
Instagram: @eduaccounts_

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Edited with finesse by our Podcast Super Producer, Mike Roberts of Making Digital Real

Transcript

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Hello and welcome to the Pick Pony podcast with myself Sharon Cawley and me Sarah Dunwood in which we talk to teachers from all walks of life who exited the classroom from what they thought was a job for life and thrived on the other side of teaching. Coming up in this episode, I can't do this till I'm 60. I was early 20s so I cannot do this for 40 years. 

So in my mind it was almost like well that pension, I'm never getting to that to that full pension pot. So what's the point in me sticking around for even 10 years seeing my call of practise. I thought I'm never going to have a full pension. 

I'm not going to get to have a full pension. So what's the point and I knew in those first few years there's no way I can do 40 years of this. Hello and welcome to another edition of the Pick Pony podcast which should actually be landing with you a couple of days before Christmas. 

So I hope you've got a mulled wine or a baileys or a coffee and you're settling into what I know is going to be a great episode with a friend of ours, Danielle Crossland and I want to tell you a little bit about Danielle before we get into her story and what she's doing now. Danielle started teaching in 2012 and she's a maths teacher and taught for 10 years, three years in a high school, seven years in a sixth form college but we'll get into that with Danielle but was an interesting one with us Sarah and and you'll like this. When we have our Pick Pony guests on they talk about born to teach. 

I'd lined up my teddy bears and I was doing this. Oh Danielle, I thought it was something I could be good at. I did it. 

I enjoyed being in front of the kids but you know what wasn't it wasn't my burning desire. It wasn't my vocation. A shaft of light didn't come down on her which is great and actually while she was a teacher her mum again bucking the trend was saying if you don't like it get out. 

So we've got an unusual Pick Pony in this respect but a great and fascinating story with I think a lot of our listeners will get get something from this as ideas. So Danielle welcome and can you tell us what it is you do today? Hi Sharon and Sarah. So what I do at the minute is I run my own business which is called Edge of Accounts and it is everything bookkeeping. 

I think that's probably pricked up a few ears isn't it because it's a great next chapter I think for teachers and we are going to pick your brains on behalf of our listeners here but before we do that let's spend some time with Danielle Crossland the maths teacher and to the untrained ear the northwest of England in the Scouse regions of the northwest but we know I was putting that putting that to one side. Danielle tell us a bit about your time as a teacher where do you want to start us with your story? So I did a psychology degree and and my mum was like oh so you're a psychologist now and I was like no it doesn't quite work like that and I just got a job in a in a school just because it gave me some money. I thought yeah this is alright. 

I was a HLTA in the maths department but yeah I could do this loads of jobs in maths and so it was a bit more of a strategic you know I knew that there'd be a large amount of maths teachers so I went and did a maths enhancement course in MMU which was great to be honest I really enjoyed it it was really good and then I went went into teaching and it was it was pretty much like well I'll always have a job and I taught in a in a school which was it was tough that so that school went from special measures to sorry from outstanding to special measures in my first year of teaching which was really really tough it was it was such a tough job and I stuck it out for another couple of years and I was like I need to get out I need to get out of this it's either get out and do you know give it another go somewhere else or just get out of teaching so I thought I'll try somewhere else and I'll just see how it goes and if it doesn't work out I'm done because it was tough in the school so I went when you say when you say tough what was tough about it um just the flip-flopping around because it went from outstanding to special measures I mean when I started which isn't even that long it was 2012 there was no internal email system there was no shared drive there was it was it was like a whole of the world so now and it wasn't that long ago I'm not like that oh no it wasn't that long ago but it just they they were in this position it was like we're outstanding we're great and then it went to special measures so I was like whoa and all these things had to be put in place it was just flip-flopping around and there'd be a new initiative one week and then you'd be doing it and then the next week it was gone and it was like oh we're doing something else and it was tough I remember being in a Ofsted I think it was the Ofsted that we went into special measures and the Ofsted inspector was in there and it went awful the kids were being horrendous like worse than it was it was like a disaster lesson and I was crying after it and speaking to the inspector and he was like are you being supportive he was actually pretty and I felt I felt a lot of responsibility on me but he was like it's your first year are you being supportive he was actually pretty good but I I felt like it was all my fault but yeah we went into special measures and that was tough and then I I just knew I needed to get out of there anyway and I think Claret that's quite a refreshing attitude but it's certainly a different attitude than what we get because it's almost Danielle's gone in but she's not locked in she's not considered that this is it and I've got to stay and it's the pension and it's because we didn't do that there was no way we were coming out we were we were lifers yeah yeah I mean it's it's unusual not wishing to bang on about something that we have we have mentioned a number of times but I do think it's it is generational because Danielle is is is a good bit younger than you and I and I think it's the right attitude if it's not right go yeah because I I knew from then that I was thinking I can't do this till I'm 60 I was early 20s so I cannot do this for 40 years so in my mind it was almost like well that pension I'm never getting to that to that full pension pot so what's the point in me stick around for even 10 years seeing my holocaust I thought I'm never gonna have a full pension I'm not gonna get to have a full pension so what's the point and I knew I knew in those first few years there's nowhere I can do 40 years of this or more because who knows what the pension age will be but I just knew now I think that's I think that's really healthy because what you've captured is something that I then try to implant in people's mindset when they have unravelled it is just a job and using just in the sense that we should use it not I'm just a teacher it really is just a job it is something in many respects that pays your bills and it's all the emotional attachment that we put to teaching the guilt the vocation the kids if more people I do think the the younger generation do have that attitude more this is a job and it is tied to your self-worth and it's tied to your life really I want a life and I think what you realised quite early doors was that this isn't going to give me the life I want really and no apology needed I think it's I think it's a real piece that needs unpicking with a lot of our pit ponies really you know you're not a missionary in the Congo you are literally a teacher in a school but you did you did three years at the um the tough place and I know what you mean about there's an initiative for this and an initiative for that and then every department's got the same initiative so you're on a literacy focus or a numeracy focus or a I get it and I'm sure many of our listeners can just go straight back to those days still staggered that there was no internal email system in 2012 I mean good god but that aside you decide to go for seven years seven years at a sixth form college what was that like so I actually started that job at 27 weeks pregnant so I was desperate to go to the school and um I found out I was pregnant a day or so after the job interview and I thought well why can't I have that job because yeah yeah well no man my husband's not not going for a job because he's pregnant so I um took the job at the college and then um and I thought well well you know I thought I had a miscarriage in the past and I thought well I know I'm not going to say until I miss job because who knows what will happen um and I and then I plucked up the courage to go and speak to the college and I was like oh I'm pregnant and I felt awful and I cried because that's just one thing I just do all the time and they were like no it's fine it's fine and they were absolutely fine about it so I started 27 weeks pregnant so it started in the august because in sixth form starts in august and I went off by october halftime and I did six months and then I went back in the june just after the exam so there was no more teaching but they were absolutely fine they saw the long-term gain and they said well it's no different to many of our other staff um getting pregnant and going on maternity leave so yeah it's fine which was quite a good omen really I thought this is pretty good place yeah um uh I mean when I started in the college we were doing three hour lessons so so I remember thinking oh I hope this goes yeah so um it was an attendance thing because getting post 16 resitters to attend you know three times a week was tough so they had this bright idea of one three hour lesson and I thought oh this goes by the time I'm back and luckily when I came back they'd scrapped that because it didn't work so I wonder why wonder why um but I really enjoyed it um again back to us the place where there was I think there was an email system but there was no shared drive so back to basics again kind of but we had so much freedom and the management was great and I I wouldn't say I lived and breathed teaching but I could do it I could do it easily it was something I enjoyed in the moment it was a job as you know paid the bills by doing something that's not too bad um the day passed quickly so I stayed um and then I and then we it was there was a change of management and I started going more and more school-like with the book scrutinies and the learning books and stuff like that I thought I'm not doing this I love it no I am the type of person where if I don't agree with something I'm like nope I'm off and during Covid I realised I loved working from home and by this point I had you know I was on my second maternity leave and I had two young kids and I just thought nope doesn't work for me I knew I could do the job well I wasn't overly like passionate about it but I could do it well and I did always put the effort in but I thought well you know I could put the effort into something else just as much and I enjoyed that just as much so yeah I decided to and I kind of had this plan of oh I'll just I'll just choose it I'll just choose it but it wasn't really what I wanted to do because it's it's a lot of evenings and weekends and I was never really interested in international tutoring I know obviously I didn't think I was a good math teacher because I'd only taught recent GCSE maths for so long and I thought yeah it'd be hard to go back I thought what's the worst that can happen I'm a maths teacher we're in demand I could do supply I can get another job I can retrain end up doing everything. You see what's interesting listening to you is and I don't know if you've navel-gazed about this yourself but where do you think that attitude came from that that it's just a job I'm good at it I can do this if I want to leave I can leave what what gave you that kind of I don't know safety net that kind of confidence to have that within a world of teaching when it is to a certain extent now I know we have an echo chamber quite a refreshing and different way of looking at your job where do you think that confidence and self-assurity came from I don't know could it be your mother who was saying bloody get out did she see something on Facebook what's Daniel so when we was in the school we did a fancy dress once and this was the time when I was so stressed I mean I lost loads of weight and it was before I got pregnant um and I was just so stressed and the things and we'd done fancy dress for it wasn't Halloween oh it must have been um what did he call what did the kids do is it yes something like that maybe and my department we all dressed up as OAPs so we all went to charity shops and got my old skirts and all stuff like this and I'd put my makeup on to make it look like I had bags under my eyes and wrinkles at this point I was 23 or 24 maybe and I put a photo on Facebook and my mum commented saying oh Danielle that job's gonna kill you shut up like what if I had to dress like that's not my face but yeah she she was always very um you know she wants you she's just like oh just leave you can do something else um and without sounds a big hazard I think I am quite a capable person I could you know easily go into something else and retrain and do something else I mean I'm the first person in my whole family to have gone to university none of them ever really went to college or uni or anything and most of my friends are teachers because we you know we all like to keep within the incestuous very incestuous yeah yeah yeah but both of my parents are um well were like you know just working class knowledge my dad's a plumber and he's always gone from job to job I suppose he's always landed on his feet and they always have you know they always said like lands on the feet and things so it was very much just what will be will be a lot of the teachers I talk to and they can be in their 40s and 50s when they are considering leaving one of the reasons they stay is for fear of disappointing their parents it's a really bizarre people-pleasing kind of mindset that they get into where they're like my parents were so proud with exactly the same um setup that you've just said first generation university there was no other teachers in the family they were blue-collar workers they were so proud I became a teacher how can I tell them I'm not teaching when they thought that was the prize that was the job for life that was your pension how could you be so stupid to think of leaving teaching your family have flip-flopped the complete opposite which is be capable you'll get something else and I think if I am to be reflective I think that's maybe something that as parents we need to consider when we are role modelling for our children that if you don't have to do something for life you can move you're not a tree um so I think that's been it's been a really good insight into that that different kind of attitude but the bit that I want to ask you about is you've got this great job you like it you're doing seven years I know it's getting a little bit more but looks and learning walks but what makes you suddenly go no I'm leaving why did you come to that decision so it was after so it would have been after Covid and things and after all the lockdowns and stuff and I it was about November and I was just exhausted I think November's the hardest month in teaching um and I just had to take a few days off because I just I just didn't feel right I just felt absolutely exhausted because although it was a it was much easier than teaching it was still tiring you know having kids and life and I was just absolutely exhausted and I took a few days and I felt like I'm not really sick but I just I just wasn't right and you know people take like mental health days and things and I've never really I've never considered myself having a mental health issue or anything ever but I just felt exhausted so I took a few days off and um I stumbled across the Piponi videos on Facebook and YouTube and I watched it and I thought yeah yeah I'm gonna leave I'm gonna go this is what I'm assentive to somebody away so then she actually hands her notice in as well Jesus Christ um so no I'm I'm not gonna do this um and it wasn't it wasn't the worst job you know we didn't do any work after half past four we did no work for weekend unless there was maybe mops that we had to turn around quite quickly and to a lot of people it's no it was a good job the the head teacher was amazing I remember being in a little meet with the head teacher and a few other teachers and someone says oh it's great whoever covered me last week so I could go to the kids um you know performance or something she's like so they should so they should we all should we support each other and she was amazing but the management above me was just starting to get more and more micromanaging and you know being managed by someone who can't do my job but still telling me how to do my job and I thought no I know how to do this and if you're not happy with the way I'm doing it I'm off so I just decided to leave but obviously teacher guilt um I stuck around until the summer because um because I just couldn't face leaving them with because it's so hard to get um cover in for the last part of the year and I just couldn't face leaving them so there was some teacher guilt and I stayed until yeah summer but um yeah I just thought no I'm done I've done me 10 years I'm going to try something else wow Sarah Sarah Sarah reflections please that's a really different kind of story isn't it that we normally get it's a really empowered position to to be so it's not even not being bothered it's it's being in control isn't it no that's not right I'm not doing that I'm not having that um as we say quite often pack it in I'm off how how glorious is that and I think I think it would be really interesting because there'll be a lot of people who listen or watch who go oh god I wish I could be like that or I wish I had been like that because I was listening to thinking yeah probably about 2014 I started thinking oh is this for me and I fell into all of the traps the pension the um the level of the level of income without actually cross referencing it to how much work I was actually doing and I think if if somebody had been on my shoulder 11 years ago and gone do you know what you're only in your early 40s you can still retrain you can still do this you can still do that I'd have gone I really do but but I didn't have that I didn't have that internal voice that would tell me that and and there wasn't the I was very mired in teaching is my life it's all my friends are there it was I was I was fully in so it's I feel a little bit jealous to be honest listen to you that that yeah but don't you also think because Sarah and I have branched out in the world now so even though we've got a lot of teacher friends we've got a lot of people we've got a lot of normal friends as well and I'd be really interested to play the first part of this podcast to people who we know who were not in teaching they might be civil engineers or you know they might be working in media or design or something and they'd be going right what is stunning about somebody who did something for a couple of years went nah it's not really floating me boat this I think I'm going to try somebody else why are you staggered why is this even a conversation point because outside of the teaching world that's how people are they are incredibly well boundaried they talk about am I titled to my leave and then they don't fit their leave around when they think there is the least amount of a pinch point in the works calendar they take leave they do things like well I'm going to make the most of this because there's a bank holiday on the Monday so if I get the Tuesday off I can stretch my weekend to this it's a totally different world and I think the more we are exposed to that level of liberation and boundaries and self-worth the more people stay in teaching because if you can make yourself boundaried within the classroom and go respectfully no I can't do that I've got too much on my plate it's not possible to do it it would be amazing to be able to push back at these management people with I know my rights is something we've banged on about for years but can I jump in it is doable because there are keep saying this there are places where that happens there are schools there are leaders where that support that funnily enough when I was at the college I was a bit of a trouble causer I should probably imagine so we got so in the college we got holidays we didn't just get the holidays off so we got a set amount of holidays and set amounts of working from home days and and some of the teachers would almost just you know if the manager says oh we need so many people in over half time they just go in I'd be like no you've not got enough holidays left and I had a spreadsheet that everybody used as you can imagine I had a spreadsheet that everybody could use and I was like you get all your holidays and I was like we did and I was the um the trouble causer who's who's making sure that everyone got what they were entitled to um and again I'm going to look at that language I was the trouble causer how's that causing trouble when you know what your rights are and it is again it is a teacher mindset I stood up for myself I asked questions I got what I was entitled to and nine times out of ten when those words come out of somebody's mouth I know they then put a target on their back it is and this is the piece of work that needs to be done in our education system it is a movement from feeling guilt and and of course trouble well do you agree Sarah yeah and we see it we see it loads in the group with specific things like part-time but I've been told I've got to come in on an inset day but it's not my normal working day the answer is a flat no it is a flat no well if they've said this they can say everything that they want to say but the law says no and your contract says no but I don't want I don't want to make trouble but it's your entire and it's that I know I know you call me Schrodinger all the time because I'm always sat between but it is that it you're either I'm going to say something it's probably going to get me cancelled on the internet now there's there's something wrong and you want to do something about it and you are given the tools here are your contractual and statutory rights here's the protection in like legislation you can't then go oh but no I don't want to do that because it might well if you don't want to do it then don't complain about it that's that that is my stance now you we can give you anybody can give you all of the advice in the world but if you're not prepared to take that advice and act on it then then you stop at that point being able to complain about the circumstance that you're in yeah because only you can take responsibility for changing the position that you're in and I think that cycles back to where where we are with with how Danielle was no this is not right for me anymore no I'm up this there's just a step before that and we talk about boundaries all the time okay they are so important people with a healthy mental health and with a good mindset are boundaried now people think that a boundary is when you just say no you put yourself first and you express your needs or you say no or you trouble make whatever it is a boundary is putting down your needs your wishes and your decisions people can do that I'll send the email and then I'll say I'm not doing it and then they worry for three weeks after it a healthy boundary is not about the action you take it is about the impact you allow it to have afterwards a healthy boundary is when you say I'm sorry that's not my problem to sort out okay I am aware that you have very short staffed on Monday I am not coming in it is not my problem to sort out it gets pushed back to you then you get on with it then you totally disregard the impact that that has had on the other person don't collapse into panic after you've set a boundary and if you can walk away that's when it's really healthy saw something on on the talk last night which was about a subtlety in language you know the difference between people saying no I can't do that as opposed to I don't do that so to give you an example the example they gave was somebody calling a meeting after five o'clock on a Wednesday if you say I can't it's actually still an invitation to the person on the other side to try and persuade you yeah I can't do that meeting on Wednesday and they will go well maybe if you do this that and the other if you say I don't I don't do meetings after five o'clock on a Wednesday because I've picked my child up full stop I don't is harder for somebody to wrangle with and try and persuade you and I just thought it was really interesting that is good context of boundaries but you are so right it's the it's that thing that we've said so many times the amount of times where somebody will be sat there thinking and thinking and thinking about something 24 hours a day five days a week all the rest of it when the person who's received the message who's had the pushback is now not giving it a second thought because they've moved on to something else we absorb too much so it's really um I wish we could bottle whatever whatever it was that that Danielle had that just went no it's okay I will find something else it's and I think what I tend to do when I am making my final boundary no or yes whatever is and I am comfortable with my decision I no longer wish to discuss this full stop and I am comfortable with my decision yeah but can you not do this I am comfortable with my decision I'm bringing this discussion to an end and then walk away in that comfort that there is there's no impact what's the worst you can do nothing the worst I can do is now worry about this and I think I think over the last couple of years we became very very much more educated about toxicity we've got a language surrounding toxicity we talk about gaslighting and love bombing and bread crumbing and all sorts of different things that helped us understand certain things that were happening to us my prediction as we enter the year of the horse for 2026 is that we are going to start to become way more educated in the language of boundaries we are going to become way more educated in how to internalise when we have put a boundary in and I think that's the next piece that's going to happen within our culture about putting ourselves first without then collapsing in the need to make it okay because we've done so so with that in mind you've put your notice in you've seen out this class and I think you think it's going to be tutoring don't you because that's how our paths cross a lot because we've networked together on so many occasions you decide do you that okay tutoring is going to be my first stab yeah um so yeah so I decided to do a tutoring and I wanted a new groups would be the way to make money but I always struggled to get groups going because you know you've got a slot that's empty and it's like I'm saving that slot for a group and and it's just that but I've got this this offer of a one-to-one lesson of you know I need to take that because I've got nothing in that slot anyway and and groups didn't work out um so I so I did I did a bit of tutoring but then I on the off chance just applied for a job at a charity um and got it um didn't know one job into it and it was bid writing um which as a maths teacher I was going from maths a lot of writing I don't know what I thought it was but it was to do with money so it was like with funding and I thought it was to do with more money it tends to do with um the more of the money side but it was actually a lot of writing but it was also a lot of data um and using the system called salesforce I thought I actually quite like this I like systems this is what I'm good at and it took me a good you know six months out of teaching to think what is that I want to do like what am I good at and what do I enjoy I like working from home I like systems I like numbers I like money um so so yeah it just it although it wasn't the job it was it was convenient it was again it was it fit it worked well for me um and I did the job and I did it well and you know they were lovely the management were lovely and it was so nice to not be micromanaged anymore um and really enjoyed that but it just wasn't quite for me and I thought well stick out until it's you know until it's convenient for me kind of thing and I did the job I did it well and everything um but I thought this is that this this isn't it so I was thinking of other things that I could do um and then I actually lost my mum in the march really really suddenly she was only 62 I thought I could be in teaching until after 62 like there's no way I'm going back to that and you know it just made me realise that yeah I definitely need no it's a need to be out of teaching and so yes so I lost my mum in the march but they were amazing about it and obviously out of teaching you don't get extended leave I didn't get tonnes of sick leave and bereavement leave and things like that but they let me have two weeks off even though I wasn't entitled to it and they let me have it off and then when I did go back they kind of just left me alone and and I was officially working but they weren't really expecting much from me um and and I always think I could not have been in teaching I couldn't have taught while I lost my mum um because I couldn't have stood back up in front of the class two weeks after and you see stories of people who've gone in a day after or and I just think I physically I couldn't have I was still writing every day for like six months I could not have gone back into class um but working from home it was manageable and and I I could I could do that but yeah I knew it wasn't what I wanted to do so I started looking into other options and I was thinking should I be a mortgage broker should I be a financial um advisor or like what can I do and I like numbers I like systems like what can I do and I came across bookkeeping and I thought well that's where I could still work with people because a lot of people struggle with numbers and struggle with maths and money and I'd found it frustrating in the college that we was teaching kids who well I didn't call them kids but they weren't kids they were you know post-16 and they were doing maybe like a plumbing course or an electrician course we were teaching them recent math we were teaching them absolutely nothing about money and finances and these people were going to go and be self-employees and you know we weren't teaching them anything about how to eventually run their own business and be um yeah manage the tax and everything like that I thought oh I think bookkeeping would be quite good because I can still work with people and I can still help them in a way and I can still almost teach them in a way but it's not teaching because I do think there is a little bit of teaching in it because when I'm working with people I'm you know coaching them along getting getting things together and things like that so I started doing that course and I was doing it from home for an evening around the kids and I flew through it because I was really into it and I just found it I just really enjoyed it um so I did the level two and level three um and then after I had done the level three I was able to get a practise licence so um but before that I'd left the charity so I left the charity at the end of August and I thought I'll do supply so the plan was to do supply until I finished the course and I could bookkeeping practise and while on supply as you can imagine me being me I became quite a hard negotiator so I knew they wanted me more than I wanted them so so I would play the agencies off against each other and I ended up negotiating quite a good race. It's an interesting piece around this because me and you have talked about this and supply rates so let's just go back to actually what your good day rate was and what you did so how much did you end up on a day rate for supply? Um 220 a day but I think I could have pushed that a bit more at certain times of the year I realised so when I started I think I started on 140 pounds a day but it was early September there wasn't a lot of demand and I thought I can't play these off against each other yet because there's not the demand there and then as as it was getting into the school year I could tell I could see that the agencies were phoning me more than I was phoning them and I thought they want me more than I want them and um I started going to a school who wanted me back I mean most schools I went to they wanted me back not like a big headed thing but it does happen um that the schools want you back and I thought well they want me I'm going to tell the agency that I want more money because they only want me so like they're like the power's in my hands almost um and I'd play the agencies off against each other I mean I did trip me up once and I did say to one agency that I've been off of more and I was I was speaking to the same agency but yeah anyway it works would they say like we want you to do a day's work and we'll pay you this so what was your response to them then when they'd say we'll pay you 180 what would you say let's say it will have been offered 200 for tomorrow if you can beat it I'll be there and and they'd say okay yeah and I just knew I just knew that they if I had pushed back they'd go okay yeah I thought there's a lot of there's a lot of um you're not having to you're not having to go and speak to any managers and I thought I I can get more so yeah so I played them off against each other in a way and it was funny because I had a call with a new agency and started the call my husband was actually from home working from home that day and I started the call and he was like oh so so the most we can pay is 150 a day I said you know like we might as well just finish I'm not working for 150 a day and at this point I was only on 180 I'd only like gradually got up to 180 it was probably about October time he says if you want me to do any days and there's no way I'm doing less than 180 and instantly he says okay yeah we can do 180 and I thought without you having to even go and ask anybody you can instantly say yeah 180 is fine so I thought there's wait I could probably go even further but what I always did was I always waited until I built a good reputation and a good relationship with either the agency or the school and then I pushed it a little bit further and I just kept pushing it a little bit further and I didn't really try and push it any further after 220 a day because I didn't need it anymore but but yeah I just knew that they needed me more than that well if you think if you think about it anybody listening to this now is thinking about going on supply now obviously what you've said is that didn't happen from the get-go when you were starting out with your reputation but but you're the mathematician if you did that for five days in a week what what's your take-home at the end with five times 220 how much are you taking home 1100 pounds a week on supply if you did that for a month it's four and a half grand now I know you've got all sorts of stuff going on you don't get paid in the summer and everything but people will very quickly dismiss supply I don't want to do supply I don't want to do supply and I have said supply cannot be talked about with one title of supply there are so many different ways to approach supply teaching in the first instance it's temporary it is a lifeboat option do not base it upon your experience when you were main when you were embedded into a school and you just hear these horror stories of supply teachers coming in I think if you do supply with the right mindset and again boundary I am going in I am delivering I've got my bag of tricks I will give it my all when I'm in there and then I can walk out and totally detach from that day's work 220 is not a bad rate particularly would that have included the work being set for you oh yeah yeah yeah so in secondary you never set the work I always say I think as teachers we are very lucky that there is a backup plan there's because my husband if he was made redundant tomorrow what's his backup plan what can he phone up and say right I'll be there tomorrow like there's not much that he could do he couldn't just leave a job and have this pretty well paid backup plan um you know nurses can do it because they've got you know bank work in the same way as supply but I don't think there's many industries where you've got a plan b which is actually pretty well well well paid and I mean it's not the best as it's you know it's it's not it can be tough there can be tough days but you can get through them and you're not gonna have sleepless nights over it because there's no emotional attachment there it's just yeah it was a bad day whenever if you're going if you're going in not taking things personally if you're going in with resilience if you're going in with a clear expectation we had a great guest James Terry James Terry loved doing supply you know there was there was another guy who um Mark he was working as an actor chaperone he loved his supply if you go in and you cherry pick what you do and you've got the right attitude over a thousand pound a week as a lifeboat people listening to this outside of teaching and go well what do you want me to do for a grand a week stand in front of a class and kids and dickheads in front of me go on I'll do that you know it's or go in and they're not going because you're in a good department who know how to set a supply teacher up for a successful day because when I was working in schools we never let our supply teachers get rinsed in the English department nor an hour watch the work was set we went in we checked everything was okay and it was a tough school in Warrington but I do I'm glad you've brought up that topic of supply now I know Sarah when you were a deputy and you were in a tough school your supply I don't know what their experiences were when it was on your uh shift I would say on on the basis of if any of them are listening highly varied and it and it really depended what groups they got and what member of staff was was absent and and we would tactically deploy sometimes as well in terms of not bringing a supply member of staff in and putting them in that one classroom all day we might move them around particularly if we because we did have some groups that yeah let's just let's just leave that one hanging yeah yeah I can't even think of a polite way of saying that um it was like being fed to the lions but we were the same if you know where my classroom was if there was a supply teacher in the classroom next to me or on the corridor that was that was near me I wasn't the only person who would go in and check in on them as a senior member of staff other members of staff would just kind of poke the head around make sure if there was all right because they are your colleagues and and they might only be your colleagues for a day or a week but they are still your colleagues and so that that was the attitude we had in our school I don't think that's the case in all schools oh no I think suppliers is supply teachers are and and just listen to the language that we use we refer to we refer to adults as supplying no they're not they're supply teachers and and it's become embedded and I think in some schools it is very cultural if you are not part of that team and you are there for a day or a couple of days you could end up sat in the staff room by yourself like milly no mates and walk in and walk out but for some people that's okay for some people it's not I did have some tough days um you know there were some some schools which was tough but there was nothing better than at the end of the day thinking well thank god I don't work there thank god that's not my job full time yeah um and I'd just be in the agency and say take me off the list for that one I'm never going back and that's it and nothing bad ever happened um the worst that's happened was yeah but nothing bad happened um and there was some schools locally that you know are notorious and I would say to the agency and it was almost um so I'd say to the agency I won't go to this school this school this school and sometimes I'd get a phone call saying oh we're desperate for someone to go to whichever school we'll offer you and they'd straight away say we'll offer you 250 a day and it's like danger money I say nope don't want to go there well I knew if he starts off with an amount I was like this is there's something something dodgy yeah but um and I think thank you for that that's that's been really insightful particularly for people who have completely dismissed it completely dismissed it and you might want to say I am going to do supply but I'm going to do it Tuesday Wednesday Thursday only I have long weekends or I do two days a week or I might do two straight weeks and then have two you can do day-to-day supply some people get maternity covers so they are actually on supply so to speak but they are there for a prolonged period of time I absolutely think it is something that needs to be considered definitely.

Hello loyal listeners it's that time in the episode when me and Sarah put out our little begging bowl and ask you to help fund our podcast because it's coming out of our pockets and our kids have been living on beans on toast for months while we've been messing about pretending we're live on Loose Women. There's going to be a link in the episode notes and it's called buy us a coffee this is your chance to help fund the podcast give a little something back thank you. A little bit of a question for you what is bookkeeping? So one way I describe bookkeeping is say for example you run a business and you've got your accountants a bookkeeper is almost like the nurse the end of year accountant they're like the doctor so it's keeping up with the day-to-day finances of the business in general whereas the accountant is the end of year the doctor oversees everything that's that's one of the easiest ways. 

I think this is where it's important now to just slightly segue into this a lot of our listeners have started their own businesses many of them have gone down the route of tutoring they might have dog walking businesses they might have opened shops there's a whole host of ex-teachers who have gone down the entrepreneurial route and some of them are absolutely stunned at just the skill set that they actually have and one of the things I've always advocated if you particularly want growth in your business and it was one of the things I did because as you know I went from that sole trader to a limited company and then started to grow the national network that we have here and if anybody asked me what advice I would give to somebody who wants to scale is outsource. Outsource the stuff that is not your skill set outsource the stuff that takes up way too much of your time and one of the things I used to work out was what was my hourly rate so let's assume I was doing group tutoring 25 quid for a kid I'd got six kids around the table 150 pound for my hour all right and marry that up with what a supply day rate is you know and that's what I was talking for groups with me as that tutor. If I was then spending two hours on a business to reconcile my parental invoices or my receipts or whatever two hours of my time is 300 quid it's 300 pound on my hourly rate to do something that isn't my skill set so very quickly I worked out the value of my time and the cost of outsourcing so I was doing exactly what business owners do with you I was outsourcing my tasks social media is another perfect example of that creating social media content doing the posting bookkeeping is a huge huge example of how to get more use of your time and more value so am I assuming that because you've stayed in the world of education and obviously the name of your business educounts you are working with a lot of tutors who've done exactly that they've outsourced an element of their business to you yeah yeah so it wasn't the plan really um I just set up as a bookkeeper I was going to networking events you know talking to many many business owners from all kinds of different walks like but just me being me the most people that I know are teachers and what I know is teach and it's you know it's something I've always worked at I could say um institutionalised but you know I like working with tutors and I have done tutoring in the past and it's an industry I know so as I was because at the point I was still tutoring a little bit so I was going to networking events with tutors and saying oh I'm also doing this bookkeeping I'm also setting up this bookkeeping business and my face I thought oh tutors don't earn much they wouldn't need a bookkeeper they wouldn't need somebody and then I actually got involved you know got into it and started getting involved with companies which are you know turning over six seven figures and they have started with tutoring and are now running tutoring agencies and they're making a very decent amount of money and you know it's a shame I don't want to teach the tutor anymore because you know it is a really profitable industry it's just something I'm just not passionate about doing myself anymore but I enjoy working within the industry still I enjoy working with teachers um so I work now so my bookkeeping practise has grown quite a lot in the past 12 13 months and I now support 25 clients which range from small sole traders who are just tutoring themselves but still making a decent amount of money to tutoring agencies who've got um up to about 50 to 70 staff and I work with them quite a lot and I do quite a variety of bookkeeping and admin for those companies um and I really enjoy it because I'm still working with teachers I'm still working in that industry but they're just not having to do the teaching and I think I think that's what's important as well because just to to bring you back to that so you train you train in bookkeeping and by the way I love the spelling of bookkeeping because there's so many double letters it really is a great great word to write down so you start this completely fresh business you are freshly trained you've you've tinkered around the edges with with a bit of tutoring but you are starting from scratch and I've said this over and over again particularly with um like when we're dealing with our franchisees you are going into a complete territory where nobody knows you so it is almost like taking a sledgehammer and trying to crack cement to get a foothold into the world you're in and you're right you start to network and we've talked about this so many times on our podcasts Sarah and I met at a networking meeting where businesses come together and it doesn't just have to be did you not know that no no yeah that that's that's mine and Sarah's how did we meet story isn't it Sarah Dunwood yeah broke broke it broken in a corner I was not prepared to talk to anybody which is the worst worst possible thing you can do at a network meeting yeah you've been over you've been over to Rutherford house haven't you you've seen our the the old business part before you came to Lynn where we've just moved to so what they used to do they used to put on um networking events where you well what happens is to anybody who doesn't quite know what we're talking about you only have to go on eventbrite or google or go on facebook and look for your local business networking events and they're normally in the morning and you meet and you have what's called open networking so you all you all try and balance one of those really small coffee cups you know that you can't quite get your finger in the hole and then you've got it on a saucer and it's red hot and there's not enough milk and you can't work out on that big silver thing whether you press or it's hot water so once you've got through that debacle then you realise you forgot your sugar and you're gonna have to drink it anyway so it tastes rank once you sat there with an undrinkable cup of coffee you do open networking and someone will come up to you and say hi who are you hi i'm sharon i'm a tutor oh really yeah i'm john i've got a social media marketing business oh what does that mean hi yeah i do um pack testing or i do i am a cyber security there's all sorts of people who go to these networking events and then a good networking event normally has a speaker who gives you some business advice it might be something to your website or it might be a co whatever and then off you go but you make connections and then if you're savvy you take those connections from face to face and create them online on linkedin so you end up in this world where you are building your own team of colleagues around you your own support network but more than anything what then happens is john who does cyber security is talking to timmy next time they're at a meeting and tim says do you know what i'm up to here all day on friday was bloody up to here trying to find these receipts i'm gone i was talking to a woman last week danielle she does this she does bookkeep and before you know it people put people together with people which is exactly what happened when sarah and i when she came over because despite being in one of her darkest times had the wherewithal to put herself into that kind of environment to see what's out there so i think a nice nugget from you has been supply and another one is the power of networking if you've got a nice footprint that backs you up and oh what is it you yeah here's my card i've got a website i've got a social i've got a facebook post and i'm on linkedin you have just started to advertise and brand yourself and i'm assuming danielle that's where you've picked up a lot of your clients through networking opportunities yeah yeah yeah and um just getting to know people within the industry as well um and going to events and turning up and um but i mean it was tough getting going and i felt a lot of imposter syndrome because because bookkeeping is a regulated industry and there's a lot of compliance that you need to to you know to work towards and things and i still get this feeling of am i doing everything right i'm doing everything that i should be doing because it is it is really important that is it is done correctly and compliantly and things but um there was a it was it was it's tough to get going but once often once these things get going they do then skyrocket um and i will be you know hopefully you're growing even further next year but this is an interesting observation if i may you talked about teaching yeah i'm going to take i did it i wanted to do it i did it yeah and then when i was doing the reset stuff with the um college yeah i was good i stood there supply knew my worth nothing the minute the fact you found the thing you loved you went i i sometimes get imposter syndrome and that was the first time you have totally flipped into a version that you've not shown before do you think that's because it's your passion it's your reputation you're not behind any institution or do you think it's the the seriousness of how you take your work and what it is you're doing why do you think there was a flash of imposter there then it's just because it's a whole new thing and maybe because i've gone into teaching young and you don't have that or i didn't have a fear of it at all can't give a shit yeah i know that and then when you're older and disability lies on me um you know obviously i've got back with plants and things but if it all goes wrong it all hangs on me um but i am you know i always think well if it does go wrong i'll be back to supply um but because anybody wants a maths teacher yeah it's been absolutely refreshing it's been a really really interesting and i knew it would be i knew it would be because when we were when we were walking along the canal at limb and i'm going come on and you're like yeah okay i'll do the podcast i knew you'd be brilliant and i knew you would be everything i asked you to be be informative be educational and be inspirational because you've got a great story with loads for people to pick out and as you know my dear we always ask for a sliding doors moment so have you given much thought to your sliding doors moment and if so we'd love you to share it with us i think it was lose of my mom just a thought you know there's more to life than killing you yourself to death to a certain point and pension and things and you may not get to live that life anyway um and and now you know i go to every every school play i go to everything everything for the kids i don't have to ask anyone's permission i'm totally in control of my day um and i can do whatever i want whenever i want um and it's just yeah i know i'm not gonna get that pension but hopefully i'm growing something that will um you know see me through to the future anyway um and yeah i'll be fine i'll i'll land on my feet whenever i do always because it's it's one of those isn't it that and and this is the thing i always ask people to consider and for those people who are listening to this and they're not in a great place in teaching and we know this is going to be coming out on the 23rd of december and i know it as it plays out throughout 2026 it won't necessarily be as poignant but if you are one of those pit ponies who are sat there and you are unhappy you are you have a feeling you're in a toxic school or you've been bullied or you've just been told you're on a support plan or there's things going on and you are genuinely genuinely going to write your christmas off because your heart is heavy then i always do some of my own accountancy because i now don't see my life in terms i see them in quarters like a true business woman would not to 25 25 to 50 50 to 75 and 75 onwards next year i'll be 54 so i'm in that third quarter of my life so i think 75 is my next marker in the sand so i might only have got to do some quick maths 26 christmases left till i'm 20 till i'm 75 no it's not even that is it sarah it's 21 21 christmases left 21 summers and when you start to look at your time like that and i'll never have another christmas with my kids at home hopefully i will never have another christmas where i'm in this good health okay because when i am 75 i bet i will give my right arm to be as healthy as i am today so if something is robbing me of my joy if something is making my mood depressed and is spiking my anxiety then time is the one valuable commodity that we have and it is not worth wasting it on what quite frankly is and i'm going to go back to the expression i used at the start of it just a job so danielle i'd like to really thank you for your time you've been a cracking guest we've we've endured the scouse accent for long enough we now need to go and cleanse ourselves by watching the real housewives of cheshire rude that was rude what can you see can you see how she's shaking her head going no you've been absolutely superb we've loved every minute of it and i bet there are people out with their notepads and pens listening to this episode i knew it would be one of these i knew it would be one so on behalf of myself and sarah and everybody who's listened cheers danielle and we'll see you soon thank you very much thanks for staying with us during another great episode of the pit pony podcast and on behalf of myself sarah dunwood mike roberts at making digital real we wish you all the very best and we'll see you soon if you wish to contact me directly for a support session or a clarity call for your next steps please find my link in the comments below see you soon