Interview with Helena Norberg-Hodge

Today I'm so excited to be interviewing Helena Norberg-Hodge. Helena is an author, a filmmaker and founding director of Local Futures. Local Futures is committed to the revitalisation of cultural and biological diversity and the strengthening of local communities and economics worldwide. 

Helena has published several books including international bestseller 'Ancient Futures' which is a look into tradition and change in Ladakh.  She is also the producer of the film 'Economics of Happiness'. 

On Helena's website she has this beautiful saying: 

"Localization is the way to repair our fractured world, our ecosystems and ourselves." 

I first met Helena when Mak and I were planning our motorbike trip in the Himalayas in 2011. A client of mine introduced me to Helena and I bought Helena's book 'Ancient Futures'. We didn't actually make it into Ladakh because going on the Spiti circuit took a lot longer than we thought. We do take our time when we're travelling. 

I read 'Ancient Futures' and it changed my life. It had a huge, lasting impact on my life. I have also had the good fortune to listen to Helena speak on several occasions and I have taken a lot of what Helena has said into my life and into my business. 

Before meeting Helena I'd already been buying local produce from the farmer’s market but after reading the book and watching Economics of Happiness, my spending locally really went up to the next level. It's my honour to welcome Helena Norberg-Hodge

In this interview 

we talk about; 

why it is important to shop locally,

what impact it has on communities worldwide,  

and what you can do to buy more locally.

Welcome, welcome, Helena. I'm so excited to have you here. 

Relevant links

For more information on Helena and where to buy her books https://www.helenanorberghodge.com/

 For information on the feminine futures event https://www.localfutures.org/events/feminine-futures-webinar-series-2025/

Movie on buying local produce https://www.localfutures.org/films/local-food-can-save-the-world/

https://www.veets.com.au/vegan-foundation-cooking-course  Come join the online group program of the vegan foundation cooking course where we not only ensure the meals, snacks and treats contain iron but also are fully nutritious and taste sensationally delicious.

For the full show notes go to 

www.veets.com.au/16

Hope you enjoy this episode 

Let me know your thoughts in the comments.

Follow Veet on https://www.facebook.com/VeetKarenVegancookingandnutrition/

Have a sensationally delicious day.

Love Veet 

Transcript

Introduction

I first met Helena when Mak and I were planning our motorbike trip in the Himalayas in 2011. A client of mine introduced me to Helena and I bought Helena's book 'Ancient Futures'. We didn't actually make it into Ladakh because going on the Spiti circuit took a lot longer than we thought. We do take our time when we're travelling. 

I read 'Ancient Futures' and it changed my life. It had a huge lasting impact on my life. I have also had the good fortune to listen to Helena speak on several occasions and I have taken a lot of what Helena has said into my life and into my business. 

Before meeting Helena I'd already been buying local produce from the farmer’s market but after reading the book and watching Economics of Happiness, my spending locally really went up to the next level. It's my honour to welcome Helena Norberg-Hodge. 

Welcome, welcome, Helena. I'm so excited to have you here. 

Veet  

I just loved visiting your website in preparation for this interview. It's made me realise what an impact your work has had on my life and my business. And in the intro, I talked about how I bought your book, 'Ancient Futures', in 2011. I would love you, if that's okay, to start talking about that book and your time in Ladakh. 

Helena

I was living in Paris, and I'd grown up in Sweden. I had lived in England in Germany and also in America. I travelled quite a lot. I had settled in Paris and I was 29 years old and I really had decided I didn't want to keep travelling so much. 

But then I was invited to go out to this unknown part of the world called Ladakh. And Ladakh is actually the westernmost part of Tibet that belonged politically to India. And this area had been completely sealed off. No one had been allowed to go there. And now suddenly it was thrown open. So this anthropological film team from Germany wanted me to come along because I had learned to speak a lot of languages. I was a linguist. And they knew that, because they'd been shut off, you know, it'd be very difficult to communicate with them. So they wanted me to come and try to pick up a bit of the language to help with the job. I agreed to do that, even though I wasn't so keen on travelling, when I learned how untouched they had been. But I didn't expect to come into contact with the most radiantly happy people I had ever encountered and with the healthiest people I'd ever encountered. 

I just became so enchanted by these people. They had such a sense of humour and I was so attracted that I learned a lot of the language very quickly. And when the film team left six weeks later, I decided to stay. At first, my excuse was I was going to do a PhD on the language. And I went through the whole area. I collected folk stories. And I helped to write down the spoken language because the spoken language wasn't written. They had books that went back more than a thousand years, including medical books, and they were in classical Tibetan. So it was a bit like having books in Latin, like they did in France and Italy. But the spoken languages were quite different. 

I had discovered, you know, I was out in that part of the world for two years. And I guess one of the most eye-opening things about it all was that I had lived with such radiantly happy people and I started understanding a little bit about that but then I go back to Sweden which was my native country and suddenly my eyes were opened to that it was unnatural for people to be depressed. Yes. And I realize just how many people were depressed in Sweden. Actually Sweden was held up as this example of progress and success and a relatively benign government, kind to women and mothering and quite environmentally conscious. But actually, the whole process of modernity had pushed people away from the land into cities, to two major cities, and a large number of people were living in high-rise cement boxes, essentially. After fossil fuels and modernity, agriculture was based on that. And their lifestyle meant they were often living alone. And that loneliness was one of the main reasons for depression and also being cut off from nature. So that was the big lesson from Ladakh. And then my, you know, a very long answer, I know. Maybe I'll just interject. 

Veet 

How did your time in Ladakh impact the work that you do now? 

Helena

Well, actually, already by that second year, I was everywhere trying to raise awareness about the fact that the dominant economy, a dominant global economy, which has been global from the outset, the modern economy started with global traders and it was always based on favouring global trade, destroying local economies. 

But I had become so aware of this in Ladakh because having imported food destroyed the local market and the local farmers, leading to people going to the city and competing for scarce jobs. I saw in a few short years how destructive this global economy was both in Ladakh and in Sweden and very rapidly around the world. I was trying to raise awareness about the impacts of a global economic system and how all of us would benefit by strengthening local economies, particularly around food, as the most important thing, but that also provides the fibre and the building materials and the management of water that is sustainable. So, it was really about meeting the basic needs of local economies. So that's what we've been doing now for almost 50 years. 

Veet

Since buying your book  I have tried as much as possible to buy as much local as I can and in all my courses I teach about buying local. I just wondered if you could explain how that really does impact other cultures in places like Ladakh or Peru or Bolivia or other places if we buy local in Australia? 

Helena

Really all over the world, buying local is the best you can do to reduce climate emissions, to reduce plastic, to reduce toxic chemicals. Essentially, you're doing the best thing for your own health, the health of the planet, literally the physical health, but you're also doing the best thing for economic health that can provide meaningful jobs for more people. 

In countries like Ladakh and in so-called poor countries, a very large proportion of people are still engaged in farming. And what's happening when you buy globally, you are destroying their ability to have diversified production for their own needs. So when everybody starts buying whatever it might be, soybeans from Brazil or quinoa from South America, then suddenly all people switch to produce what looks like a good thing because they're getting more money, but it becomes monoculture and very quickly it's destroyed their ability to feed themselves. And it sets a whole trajectory in motion that leads to the destruction of the local economy. And that also contributes to the destruction of their nutrition. They end up buying junk food, imported junk food, instead of eating healthy, fresh products from their own environment. 

Veet

Yes, when I first started catering, I was asked to provide quinoa every single day for a retreat. And so I just started doing a bit of research on quinoa, where I could get it from, and they were starting to grow it in Australia. 

And then I came up across a lot of things that were saying that the people in Peru and Bolivia were no longer able to afford quinoa because it was being exported and they were having to eat white rice and they were coming across all these health conditions that they'd never had before. 

That made me very committed to only buying local quinoa especially. So I had to say no to that retreat. I couldn't possibly do that because I couldn't get that supply at that time from Australia.

Helena

What you're doing is also very important because very often, when you say local, people think okay, I only can eat what comes from a mile away. No, we can start a process of shortening distances. So if if you're going to start by buying from within your country or even within your region. I mean, in Europe, you'd be a lot better off using potatoes from England, even if you're in, well, you wouldn't send them to Sweden because we had lots of potatoes, but you would be, without knowing it, if you buy in the supermarket, they would be likely to come from Argentina or even from China. 

So by becoming more aware of what's going on in the supermarket food economy, we realise that we're doing something beneficial, as I say, even if we buy it from our own country or our own region, I say. And then, a really important thing, which is what you're doing, is raising awareness, both among chefs and among consumers, because most people have no idea. This information isn't getting out without our active efforts to raise awareness. 

Veet

Yes, that's absolutely right. And we're very lucky in the area that we are because  we live in shires very close to each other. We have local farmers markets and a lot of places don't have farmers markets still. It is growing, but a lot of people do rely on having to go to the supermarket. So I imagine if you're having to rely on the supermarket, is there anything that you can do other than looking at the labels and requesting local from the people that are selling it? 

Helena

 Well, I don't know if you know, but I helped to start all four farmers markets here. And what I would urge people to do is to realise that, even though they might be shopping at the supermarket, they might still be able to devote a little bit of time to raise awareness about benefits. Particularly in farmers' markets, there are very good structures that can allow small producers to sell directly without huge overheads. So even if you can't actually afford to buy the food at the farmers' market, please do what you can to just lend your voice to spreading the word about the benefits of local food. Maybe you could even volunteer to help something happen. 

Maybe you could volunteer in a community garden, or be part of a community garden where at least some of what you eat could come to you fresh, healthy and local. What we're finding, because we've helped to create a sort of worldwide local food movement, even in Los Angeles, I think I was there as the first voice to talk about the benefits of farmers markets. That would be, you know, back in the 90s. 

Here in Australia, when I came in '99, it was shocking to see how many green people were still totally happily shopping at Woollies. - Yes. - And so, you know, it starts by raising awareness, 'cause it's not because people want this, they just don't realise. And it's very hard as an individual. 

If you're struggling to pay the rent, It can be hard on your own to just suddenly say, okay, well, I'm only going to eat local. It might be difficult for you. What wouldn't be so difficult is to help raise awareness and as I say, if you become aware and you start looking around in your neighbourhood, even in a big city, you might find a community garden. You might even find that at the farmer's market. If you do a bit of volunteering, you might be able to get a whole box of food for very little money. But the big, big thing is how can we alert more people, so more people get active to support the transition towards more localised economies. 

Veet

Yes, absolutely. And, you know, in our local town, in Murwillumbah, there is a food share box. So, you know, people who have excess food that they're growing in their garden, they go and put it in the boxes; there's about six boxes around the area. So that is as local as you can get. Or when I think back to when I was married, many, many years ago in Sydney, my father in law grew all his vegetables in the backyard and he always had excess. So now with the use of Facebook and other social media platforms, we can start sharing our food if we're growing it locally, which can make it more affordable for people. 

Helena

Yeah , and generally I don't really recommend trying to improve the supermarket. In other words, I'd rather that, if you are concerned about these issues, that you try to find community initiatives rather than thinking that the supermarket can do the right thing. Because what's happened with the supermarket economy is that organic was something that came from the ground up, people became aware how destructive the chemicals were, so they were pushing for food without all those chemicals. But what's happened is that, the supermarket has been able to lower the standards for organic and in the same way, it's virtually impossible for them to treat local growers properly and support a real local food economy. 

Structurally, they are locked into a system that means it's virtually impossible. So they can have a little bit of sort of superficial local and more and more superficial organic, but the real health is going to come once we raise enough awareness. 

Our governments will not be able to subsidise global corporations, giant supermarket chains, subsidise the infrastructure, including big ports, airports, superhighways, bigger and bigger ships, and they won't be able to subsidise global trade at the expense of local economies because people won't put up with it. But for the moment, there's just too little awareness and that's why raising awareness while doing the community thing, where if we change the I to a we, so we come together with a few people, it's amazing what we can do. 

Veet

Some local independent grocers will often have local produce, so they're worth supporting more than you know. A lot of small country towns still do have independent grocers, so they can see what's local there.

Helena

That's another really important thing to be aware of is that, well, first of all, I'd love people to look at a little video that we have called "Local Food Can Save the World," once you really study the global food economy, you will see that it truly is the biggest contributor to ill health of every kind, including this epidemic of obesity, diabetes, and heart disease, where young people are now dying younger than their parents. But that's just one tiny aspect of it. Once we realise how the global food economy is the reason for toxic chemicals that contribute to cancer, toxic chemicals that contribute to Alzheimer's and neurological illness, early dementia. 

Once we look at the bigger picture, it's like the reason for declining health, but that, of course, is completely linked to the declining health of the ecosystem. So we're talking about the birds and the bees and the living ecosystem that is the real economy and that is our sacred religious connection. We are interconnected with the living earth. So this global food economy is contributing to destroying both that ecological living world as well us our own health. And plastic, I mean people, I don't want to depress people, but just the plastic is a consequence of this global food economy more than anything else. And don't let anybody talk to you about single-use plastic and not talk about virtually every item in the supermarket. 

Veet 

Everything comes in plastic. 

Helena 

It perverted our minds. So now we're talking about single-use straws and plastic cups and nothing about the mountains of plastic in every single supermarket delivery. That's what we should be looking at. to change policy as well as community action. So I'm very keen. you know. if people are interested. we have films, we have videos. 

Veet

I actually signed up to your webinar for feminine futures, so I just wondered if you wanted to speak a little bit about feminine futures. 

Helena

Oh yeah, thank you. 

Well, so out of Ladakh, with this incredible, joyous culture and the healthiest people and by the way, you know, a culture where every mother had 10 caretakers for every child and maybe, you know, the most beautiful thing of all was the connection between the oldest and the youngest. And to see that, we are just meant to have that connection. We can't get back to that overnight, but at least we could have a vision of where we're going. We don't want to go towards AI and having bots as our friends instead of being connected to other people. 

So really, localisation is about reconnection. And so I realised that ancient futures are actually happening in the Western world, where people have gone into the city and felt the loneliness and developed a hunger for nature. There's a natural cultural turning towards learning from ancient, spiritually connected indigenous cultures. Now, as I looked at that more, I realized that fundamentally, it was local. It was local in the sense that people were connected face to face, not over a screen. They were connected to nature directly, to the animals, to the water, to the trees, to the living reality. So that reconnection was through localisation. 

Then I realised that it was fundamentally about revitalising the feminine in men and women. That part of this process of cutting us off from one another, cutting off the old from the young, cutting off and polarising male and female, polarising this politics of identity and separating us from the real living birds, the living soil. That was something that had happened by killing off the feminine, nurturing, connecting. And that is why feminine futures are more localised futures, more community-based futures and more joyous futures. This is why we also call it the economics of happiness. 

Veet

Beautiful. Thank you, Helena. So I'll just make sure that those, the notes to feminine futures are also there for people to sign up to, if they want to be part of that webinar. 

So we've just come to the part of the show now Helena, thank you so much, but we've come to the part of the show where we share a recipe and a fun cooking tip. So I just wondered if there's something you would like to share. 

Helena 

Well yeah, I actually have been advised so much not to have any sugar or not even roots, because they say they're inflammatory and I don't like the taste of Stevia but I've discovered that, particularly if I use the ground leaf, it's a green powder. It's just that I've discovered, if I mix Stevia with something sour, then you don't get the flavour of the Stevia. So I've ended up making what I think is quite delicious things where I will have, I will use some raw cacao and then perhaps some coconut oil and I'll make a chocolate raspberry mixture. So because of the raspberries, the Stevia doesn't give that aftertaste. 

I just cover it also with lemon, so I can make a really delicious thing with lime or lemon as a tart or even sometimes in salad dressings. A lot of people like to use a bit of honey and I'm usually trying to avoid that, if you just put a little bit of stevia again in the sour. 

Veet

Oh I'm gonna try that. I'll try it with carob as wel,l have you tried carob? Carob is awesome. 

Oh thank you so much for that tip Helena and thank you so much for being on this podcast. It's so lovely to hear it straight from you about buying local, as that's where I learned about localisation from in the first place. It was great that you came on and did this interview with me. Thank you so much. I so appreciate it. 

Helena

I really appreciate that you remember that and that, oh definitely. I hope it'll spread the word. Thank you for doing the work you're doing and spreading the word. 

Veet

Yeah, you're so welcome. Thank you. 

Wow, wasn't that a wonderful interview with Helena Norberg-Hodge? I could listen to her every day. She has so much information and she's done so much good work in the world. I will be following up with another podcast on shopping locally and what that means. 

Because of course, if you think about it, I use cumin in my cooking and that's not local but I try to get everything local that I can. With cumin, I make sure that it has been sourced ethically and that it's not been flown into Australia, that it has been shipped into Australia and that it is not impacting any of the local people where it's being grown.

It may seem a bit complicated, that's why I want to do another podcast to talk about how to shop local and what that means. It doesn't mean that you have to go without certain things, it's just about making sure that what you are getting is ethical and there are ways to ensure that that happens. So thank you for listening and until next time have a sensational day. 

Bye!