Chatting with Monica Gauci on Ahimsa

Monica Gauci is a good friend and yoga educator. She follows a vegan diet and in this podcast I ask her about ahimsa and the path of a yogi. 

Listen to find out what ahimsa means and how it affects the way you eat when practicing yoga.

Monica also shares her journey to adopting a vegan diet and shares a fabulous recipe and a cooking tip that influenced me when planning my dream kitchen.

Links mentioned in the podcast 

www.veets.com.au/1

 For more information on Monica Gauci 

https://8limbs.com/about/monica-gauci/

For full  show notes go to 

www.veets.com.au/34

Hope you enjoy this podcast 

Let me know your thoughts in the comments.

Follow Veet on https://www.facebook.com/VeetKarenVegancookingandnutrition/

Hope you have a delicious week

With gratitude Veet 

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Transcript

Today I'm very excited and nervous. 

It's funny how I get nervous when I'm interviewing friends and you will notice that I'm nervous because my voice does go a bit higher. But I am excited and nervous to be interviewing the beautiful Monica Gauci. Monica Gauci is a friend of mine but she's also an incredible yoga educator and she just has so much integrity.

I am so excited to be interviewing her today and I hope you enjoy this interview. This is podcast number 34, so you know where to find the relevant show notes by now — they are at www.veets.com.au/34. Let's welcome Monica.

Veet: Hi Monica, it's so wonderful to have you here.

Monica: It's great to do this with you, Veet. We've been talking about this for a little while, so we're finally doing it. Yay! 

Veet: It's awesome, and like I said in the intro to everyone — they heard that I am a little nervous. Funny that I'm nervous in interviewing such a great friend, but—

Monica: I know, that's funny. I was a little bit nervous as well, but yeah I guess it's a good thing because it just means that you've got extra energy around it and you can channel it into doing a good job. And for me, I think when I do a podcast I always like to really talk from that deepest part of myself.

Veet: Oh that's beautiful! Yeah, that's great, yay. So we'll just start from the beginning, and I just wanted to ask: How long have you been practising yoga?

Monica: I guess I seriously started practising yoga in 1979, and not so seriously in 1978. So it didn't take me long to get into it seriously. And yeah, meditation the year after in 1980, so because I see that as an aspect of yoga — if you look at it in its entirety.

Veet: Yeah, yeah, so that's a long time. And just recently, I realised, and I said in the intro that you're a yoga educator, not a yoga teacher. And I just wondered if you could speak on the difference between a yoga teacher and a yoga educator.

Monica: Yeah, I guess I still do teach yoga within an educational context, usually because, you know, my husband Gregor Maehle and I do a lot of trainings and we also do workshops. Usually we do those individually, and in the trainings we combine our skills.

We're really educating people to either become yoga teachers or yoga teachers to be more educated in all aspects of yoga. So that’s all of the eight limbs. And I guess my speciality, because I'm trained as a chiropractor, is also in that area of therapy. Because I think that, that's an area that yoga teachers often don't get an education in — and an understanding of all the different things that can go wrong in people's bodies and how they can help them a little more comprehensively than just with a standard yoga class.

Veet: Yeah, beautiful. Yeah, I know we're here to talk about food, but we're also here to talk about food and yoga. Could I just ask what the eight limbs are?

Monica: Because yoga is an eight-limbed path, and so it's actually only the third limb that is the asana, or the postures, that most people are familiar with. So yeah, there are two other limbs before that. 

The first one is to help you live in harmony with everybody around you, and the second one is more personal observances so that you're in a better place personally to then be able to practice the other limbs

So you have posture, you have breathing techniques, you have concentration — because your creative mind is so important — and then you have meditation, and then samadhi, that being able to really see everything as an expression of that divine creative force that emanates.

Veet: Okay, great, thanks for explaining that. And you know, whenever we get together, there's usually food involved. And so we're very fortunate that we're both plant-based, and I just wondered if you'd like to talk about your journey with being vegan or eating plant-based food.

Monica: So I actually became a vegetarian when I was 18 — interestingly, around that same time that I became interested in yoga. But what inspired me was that I saw a car sticker that said, “If you love animals, why eat them?” And I took that really to heart. I can be very literal, which is why sometimes I don't get jokes.

So I went home and I said to my mum, “I'm not eating animals any more.” And she was great because, you know, that was in 1978 and it was in a small country town, so it was a little bit… some people would have thought it was weird to become a vegetarian. But my mum just stopped serving me the meat with the vegetables that she always served, being of southern European descent.

And then when I was 19 I left home, and so then I could get my own kitchen and all my own spices. And you know, vegetarian cookbooks were very limited back then, but I managed to get a couple and started my own cooking.

Veet: Do you remember? I remember the food always looked quite grey in the vegetarian cookbooks back then.

Monica: Yeah, then Gregor and I decided to drop any animal-based products probably about nine years ago. And I have to say that my diet just went up a whole level of healthiness because, as a vegetarian, I relied heavily on dairy and eggs, but especially dairy. I think it is a very unhealthy food for humans — really based on cow's breast milk. 

I mean, as an adult, you wouldn't even consume human breast milk, let alone cow's breast milk. So I really noticed in my whole bodily systems that I was just a lot clearer and lighter and had more vitality and less sort of grogginess in the mornings.

Veet: Oh, that's interesting.

Monica: So yeah, that I've really, really loved. But I think my biggest sense when I dropped animal products was a sense of relief, and I think it's because I felt that there was some lack of integrity within me — because we all know how much animals suffer.

And I lived on a farm for about five years and we milked cows and goats and we had free-range chickens, so I know what it takes in order to enable that. And our cows were very happy, the ones that we kept. 

Evidently a cow has to get pregnant and she's going to have bull calves sometimes and you can't keep all of your bull calves, because you have a limited amount of land and limited resources to raise all of those. And so they would have to go to market.

Veet: Yes, oh yes, that’s so hard.

Monica: Little baby male calves. And so knowing that and they were happy cows, and ours were happy chickens, but knowing that level of captivity, that really makes those animals almost become slaves to our needs and our consumption, there was a level of me that didn't feel that that was in my integrity. So when I dropped consuming those products, I just felt much more in line with my own inner integrity.

Veet: Yeah, I totally get that. 

Monica: There's such a sense of relief isn't there? 

Veet: Yeah, I had that as well. I think I talked about that in episode number one of the podcast.

And what was the hardest thing about becoming vegan? Like, vegetarian is one thing, but vegan is quite another.

Monica: I think I thought it was going to be really hard to give up Parmesan.

I'm such a foodie and I love food so much — you know I don’t like to compromise on flavour. And so I thought, “Oh my god, no Parmesan, no ricotta.” And I actually have vegan versions of that — you have recipes for both of those — and I thoroughly enjoy them. 

I think your taste buds do alter slightly because sometimes when I've been travelling — and that is actually the hardest thing. Right now, that's the hardest thing: when you're travelling, and we travel a lot. So sometimes I'll end up with milk in my tea and I'll be like bleh — I can really taste the milk in a very different way. So whilst your taste buds do have to adjust a little bit to being totally plant-based, they also then prefer that when you accidentally end up consuming dairy-based products.

Veet: Yeah, absolutely. You hear of stories—well, even Mak—he didn’t like tahini or tempeh at all when he was vegetarian, but when he became vegan, now his taste buds have changed so much that he doesn’t mind them at all.

Monica: And I also feel that my cooking went to a whole new level because plant-based cooking is so creative.

Veet: Absolutely.

Monica: And because I can't rely on dairy and I try to consume a fairly high protein diet, I just cook much more wisely. And my cooking is much more creative. I have much more fun with it.

Veet: Yeah, that's great. I feel the same way because, you know, it was so easy just to put cheese on things. So when you don't have that option, there's just so much else that opens up.

Monica: Yeah, and it seems like a lot of effort at first, but I don't know, I don't feel like it takes me extra time now that I'm organised around what I need to do and what I want to have, you know, sort of ready in the kitchen, I think we eat really, really well. I think Gregor’s really lucky.

Veet: He is. He is.

Monica: As is Mak.

Veet:  You know, the reason for getting you on here to interview you is to talk about what the perfect yogi diet is, so I just thought we'd lead into that. And I was listening recently to Victoria Moran, who is the author of Age Like a Yogi, and she remembers when she first discovered yoga, it was through her local library. She found a book on yoga and she was reading through it, and she decided to practice yoga, but she also kept coming across ahimsa—the word ahimsa—and she decided, if she was going to do yoga, then she did have to practice ahimsa. And you do see ahimsa mentioned, , but I don't think that my listeners may know what that is, or some people might not know what that is. And I just wondered if you wanted to talk on that.

Monica: Sure. As I said, yoga is an eight-limbed path, and the very first limb are the yamas—the restraints—and the first one of those is ahimsa. And ahimsa means harmlessness. And, you know, the Bhagavad Gita is often a text that is used by yogis to study how to live life. And in that—so this is this whole conversation between Lord Krishna and Arjuna—and Krishna actually says to Arjuna, “He or she is a true yogi who experiences the pain of all beings.”

And I think that if you want to have the perfect yogi diet, then you have to practice ahimsa, which is harmlessness. And that, of course, means not incurring extra harm. And some people will say, “Well, you know, you're killing a carrot when you pull it from the ground.” And that is true. However, we all know that any being that has eyes—as you know, usually referred to as a sentient being—it’s much easier for us to feel the pain of that being.

Because, you know, it's like their soul is looking out of their eyes. And I know for me—sometimes people get really confused about what I do and don't eat—and I'll simply say, “I don't eat anything with eyes.” And they'll often do a little bit of a take back because that makes it really simple. And I think we can all relate to the pain of any other being that has eyes.

And so I think that that is the ultimate diet of a yogi: to practice a diet that incurs the least pain—with the aim that, you know—because if you do experience the suffering of all beings, and even if you don't yet, if you haven't reached that state of yogi-ness, then you can at least act as if you did.

And so obviously, by not having animals imprisoned, enslaved, having their children taken away from them, having them slaughtered and killed, means that we do do less harm. And for me, that's the most important thing. Like, you know, I—I would no sooner slow roast my—a puppy dog or a kitten—than I would a lamb, because that also is a baby sheep.

Some people may think that's a gourmet dish, but the amount of suffering that is necessary for you to consume that—and some people aren't willing to exercise that restraint of ahimsa.

Veet: If people did want to, like, especially if they're doing yoga or they're yogis and they did want to start eating less meat, what—what sort of advice do you have and or suggestions do you have, for people to start eating less meat and eating more plant-based food?

Monica: I guess it's a very personal path. And I don't know—for some people it may be from that angle, like for me, just recognising that all animals are the same, whether it be your dog or a lamb or a calf or, you know, any other animal that we feel more comfortable eating. Or perhaps it's more from a health perspective—and we know that the more plants we consume, the healthier our diet is. Or perhaps your inspiration is to be a greater yogi and to tune in more to the suffering that is inevitable when we consume more animal products.

But I think for most people it will be a gradual process. I mean, for me it wasn't—it was just instant—but I'm a little bit like that. It's like if I recognise something to be true, then I'll just flip over to that because the one thing that I've always been naturally, has always been a natural attribute of mine—is to be true to my heart.

 So yeah, I think it will be different for different people.

Veet: Okay, great that is such a good approach. Thank you. And now, um, We go—normally do the recipe first, but I thought we’ll do the fun cooking tip first.

Monica: You know, I'll say that I was really, like, stewing over this with Veet — going, “I don't have any good cooking tips.”

Veet: That's not true! 

Monica: You listed to me all these things and I was like, yeah, no, they're lame, I already do all of those.

And she was like, well that's the point!

Yes. But one of the things that Veet shared with me, that she actually picked up from me, was that — so next to my stovetop I have a drawer with all of my spices. Because I love being able to use, you know, all different types of spices and herbs, and so I have them all labelled and I have them close to the stove so I can just open the drawer, and there they all are and I can easily find which spice it is that I'm wanting to add to that meal.

Veet: yes, yes. And I used to…  of course, label all my spices, otherwise it all goes horribly wrong. But when I used to visit Monica and I would just dream about having a kitchen similar, and I'd go through the drawers, and when I found that spice drawer right near the stove, that was it — when I design my own kitchen I'm going to do that. And lo and behold, I have done that. My spice drawers are right next to the stove.

So I know that that's not possible for everyone to have it right next to the stove, but close by is great. And in a drawer — if you can free up a drawer to put your spices, put the cutlery somewhere else, and put your spices in the drawer — it's magic opening a spice drawer. So thank you, Monica, I love that tip.

Yeah. And then, yeah, the recipe. So I just thought for the recipe maybe you'd like to share what you enjoy cooking at the moment?

Monica: To tell you the truth, because I'm also gluten free, one of the things that I don't often get to eat is a pizza that I love. At our local markets we're fortunate enough that two women from the town that you live in, Murwillumbah, have a gluten-free bakery stand, and they have these great pizza bases. So being able to shortcut that step means that I can make pizzas at the moment at least once a week.

So it's a millet-based pizza base, and when you bake it, it comes really crunchy — it's delicious. What I do is I make a pesto instead of a tomato sauce base, which is one of your recipes, and so I put the pesto over the base and then I slice super thinly… I mean, you can pretty well slice anything, but I tend to do pumpkin super thin so that you can just bake the whole thing together for 20 minutes at 200C.

Then I'll put red peppers, mushrooms — you can use any sorts of mushrooms or even just do only mushrooms — and then I'll sprinkle a little bit of vegan parmesan over it and a little dribble of olive oil.

I also like to just halve cherry tomatoes — a little bit of moisture — and I tend to dry my own Italian herbs, but you could use fresh ones. And a little bit of salt. Then I bake it for 20 minutes.

When it comes out, I make this macadamia nut ricotta. Or if you prefer it saltier, you could make it as a feta, which means just add a bit more salt. So it’s really just soaking the macadamia nuts for an hour to three, then blending them with a couple of tablespoons of water, oil, and lemon juice, along with just half a teaspoon of nutritional yeast for that cheesy flavour, and salt to taste. When the pizza comes out of the oven, I just put dabs of that delicious ricotta over it, and it gives it this moist topping with a crunchy base.

Veet: Oh that sounds delicious! And so when you put the mushrooms on are they cooked?

Monica: No, I just slice everything very finely, and that way it all bakes really quickly. And that tip I got actually from our friends Sono and Mandana. Nice pizza at their place.

Veet: Oh! Great, lovely. Ah thank you so much Monica for this wonderful interview.

Monica: thank you, thank you, thank you for interviewing me.

Veet: Oh you're so welcome. Bye bye.

Well, wasn't that lovely to listen to Monica and what she had to say? And we did speak about our beautiful friends, Mandana and Sono in there too. And yeah, I just love interviewing people that are friends as well as quite well known out there in the world. And I just love that. I love to hear that yoga teachers are vegan or vegetarian because when I was first doing yoga, not that I do yoga that much anymore, but when I first did yoga when I was 18 and onwards, all the teachers that I had were vegetarian. And they were quite inspirational. And the ones who were vegan, I just really felt a lot of respect for them. 

I just loved doing this interview with Monica and I hope you get some good insights and things to think about from this podcast. 

Have a wonderfully delicious day. 

Bye, bye, bye. 

Thank you.