Creative Context
Creative Context blends professional advice with a friendly, down-to-earth approach, making it a valuable resource for anyone navigating the complex relationship between clients and creative professionals. Through stories and practical tips, the podcast helps both sides understand each other’s perspectives and work toward more successful outcomes.
Creative Context
Understanding Scope Creep: How to Manage Changes in Creative Projects
In this episode, co-hosts Douglas Duvall of Motif Media and Eric Wing of Darby Digital dive into the challenges of managing scope creep in creative projects. Whether you're a video producer, web developer, or business owner collaborating with creatives, this conversation is packed with practical advice on setting boundaries, maintaining profitability, and fostering strong client relationships.
📌 Topics Covered: Identifying the early signs of scope creep Real-life examples of navigating unexpected changes Resetting expectations when new stakeholders join Setting clear budgets, deliverables, and hourly rates for extra work Maintaining trust through communication and transparency
📢 Key Takeaways: Effective communication, setting clear boundaries, and revisiting expectations regularly are essential to keeping projects on track and relationships strong.
🚀 Don’t forget to like, subscribe, and hit the notification bell for more insights into the world of creative professionals and those who work with them!
🔗 Connect with Us:
Douglas Duvall
motifmedia.com for high-end video production.
Eric Wing
withdarby.com for digital marketing and web development services.
Welcome to Creative Context. I am Doug Duvall. I have my co-host with me, eric Wing, and we're having conversations around creative professionals and those who work with them. I have a video production company here in Boston, massachusetts, yeah, and over in.
Speaker 2:Cambridge digital marketing and just a general production company here in Boston, massachusetts. Yeah, and over in Cambridge digital marketing and just a general technology company helping businesses up the businesses grow.
Speaker 1:Today we're talking about something that has affected creative vendors and clients that use creative professionals equally, and that is scope creep. Yeah, scope creep and it's, you know, lingering effects. Tell me what the first signs you see of scope creep and how it can really affect sort of the long-term relationship and the overall project Kind of it's kind of a slow burn, but yeah, it can build resentment quick if not handled correctly, and it can really go both ways.
Speaker 2:The first signs of it generally will be how we've managed to sidestep it, but in the early days it was a lot of not handling the pre-work ahead of the actual project beginning, meaning we weren't fleshing things out enough. So what happened is, when clients started seeing progress, it gave them new ideas for things and um, you know, and so when that starts to pop up, we we generally say things like yeah, we can, we can absorb that into the scope, like we can absorb that into the budget, you know, and uh, that's always my initial go-to, because it's if you handle that correctly and responsibly you can actually build rapport with the client. Right, they're like oh, wow, okay.
Speaker 2:Yep, okay, that's great, you can include that in. But what we do now is, if we're able to absorb it, it's with a caveat of like, okay, and then you know, next time we may need to do a change request, right, but in the past it was a lot of absorption. And it gets to a point where you're not making any money, or maybe the budget is already, maybe the margins are already thin. And you know now, maybe you're feeling like you're deprioritizing the project suddenly. You don't even consciously aware that you're feeling like you're deprioritizing the project suddenly. You don't even consciously aware that you're doing it. It's the motivation, not that money is the primary motivator for doing the work we do. But uh, I know, you know when you have payroll to make and you have employees working on a project, that the scope is going sideways it can become an issue.
Speaker 2:Right so, but answer your question. Yeah, generally it's the hey, we had an idea or someone that wasn't part of the project in the beginning is now part of the project, and they have all sorts of new input, um, and so it's just navigating that, uh, creatively, uh navigating that.
Speaker 1:I think even for established creatives, it can be a tough conversation where you've already maybe agreed on a price and it was maybe a battle to get to that price.
Speaker 1:And then it's like, all right, well, now you're adding and and sometimes client doesn't understand they're adding something significant because it might seem insignificant to them, right?
Speaker 1:Yeah, like I won't use an example because it's probably a million, but let's just say I'll add a button, let's add a button here on this website or whatever, and that that might actually be a small change. But let's, let's say it's not in this example, but it sounds small to the client, but in reality it's actually. You know, maybe it's a lot of work, it's a several days of work, um, and that's a tough conversation to come back and be like all right, well, you know, do we just eat this one to better the relationship, like you're saying, or like, well, you know, this is X amount of days and we're out of budget and there's a fine line there. Um, I guess it depends on the client, the work, all of that, uh, but, like you said, there's certainly a point where you start subconsciously, you know, deprioritizing or just like putting it, putting it over here, putting a pin on and just neglecting it, maybe outright yeah.
Speaker 2:I have a real-life example, not to sidetrack us, but just to illustrate the point just this morning we're doing some work with a salon local salon and it's an interesting case study in a way, because we're getting pressure to launch the website. But the last two days straight we've been receiving change requests, and these are change requests that require time. In fact, one of them will require two business days and they want to launch the website this week.
Speaker 2:So, it's been an interesting dance to help them understand that, in fact, the request that they're trying to make is really insignificant. It's an aesthetic thing based on a subjective opinion right and, uh, you know it gets dicey.
Speaker 2:Uh, this particular project is is similar to what the example I gave earlier, where we the the project scope was approved by one, uh co-owner of the business and he then left the business, and so the remaining owner and his wife have taken over and they have other ideas, and so the scope has really been shredded at this point, and now we're just trying to get it over the finish line, so yeah, that's like the extreme, but it's something that we're going through right now.
Speaker 2:Let's just say we're doing a lot of absorbing, right, because you know from their standpoint like is something that we're going through right now.
Speaker 2:Let's just say we're doing a lot of absorbing Right, because you know from their standpoint like yeah, these are things that if they were included in the beginning of the project by the co-owner, they would have had input on. So they're just coming in saying we want it to be as good as it can be, but in the meantime we've been working with multiple people and people and we're like you know, we did what you wanted us to do, right?
Speaker 1:so anyway, yeah, little aside, but um yeah, real life example yeah, we've, and this is very quick as well. We, a few months ago, we actually had a similar, a similar thing. It wasn't a slow burn either. Um, it was. It was originally a very cut and dry, and this is an example of not having a kickoff meeting as well. They needed something very quick. We accommodated, we did the shoot. We were under the impression it was very straightforward.
Speaker 1:Edits there's three very small edits, I'm talking 15-second videos and then, when it gets over to the editing editing side of things, um, now, all of a sudden, there's all this, uh, animation and graphic work which, again, uh, doesn't seem like much to someone not, you know, not involved in the creative field. But anyone that knows graphic and creative, uh, animation work, uh, is very involved, uh, in most cases. Um, and you know, in this particular instance, I kind of stood our ground a little bit and we found a middle ground and we made it work. But there was a very wild in my mind, a wild expectation for what the budget and timeline was, and I feel like there might have been a little nefarious is the wrong word, but they're withholding information intentionally to get me to agree to something, uh, because they had such a tight timeline and once, once I'm invested, obviously I I want to turn over good work, right, I I don't want to let anyone down right, and you know we've agreed to it, we're, we're here, we're going to get it done.
Speaker 1:So once we were kind of involved, I feel like I could be wrong. That's me, that's subjective, um, that's speculative, but I feel like there might have been a little information withheld to just get us to agree to it. So, so I think what's important kind of to segue this into, uh, actionable, to take action on this sort of thing is it comes down to communication, right and clear, clear discussion around the scope of work and then probably a clear discussion on change orders and additional fees for additional work, so on and so forth. Do you feel like, let's take this project you just talked about, how are you going to handle this going forward? Like, what sort of process are you going to put in place so you don't fall into this where you're just trying to get it over the finish line?
Speaker 2:I think a good takeaway for us is, um you know, if there's new points of contact or new stakeholders that come to a project, um, regardless of those circumstances, is to have a reset right, get the scope out look at the decisions that have been made so far um discuss the timeline and and allow the new stakeholder, or stakeholders, an opportunity to weigh in on those right, because then, when you're in the context of that conversation, it's a lot easier to be like this is where we were before you, you joined the project and this is where you want us to go um and um, and this is what the the new budget will be to support that right when you're outside of it.
Speaker 2:You know, and and they're lobbying things over do this, do that, do this. It's difficult to say okay. You know at what point do you say, okay, we'll stop, now we're going to charge you extra for this, it's, it's, you're too far down the road at that point and that's a responsibility that we have to make sure you don't get too far down the road. Right in this situation, they've also hired us for marketing services, so that complicates the matter a little bit. Uh, in that, you know, we want to get this over the finish line so we can start doing the marketing, which for us and anyone listening who does marketing services, that's really where the revenue is, because it's recurring. You can count on it, right, and so we also are tiptoeing a little bit. We don't want to completely go sideways with the client, with the relationship, so we can proceed with the marketing and generating new appointments for them. So, essentially, what.
Speaker 2:I'm doing is borrowing from that first month of marketing services to pay for some of this development work, and then we'll be chasing our tail a little bit towards the end of that first month because, we still need the budget to do the marketing work, but for net. So it's like borrowing here, pulling from there. So a lot of learning in this particular situation. What about you?
Speaker 1:I think in that particular instance, by all rights we could have walked away from the project, because I could have pointed to the original email and said you know, this is not clear, clear as day, written right here. This is not what we agreed to do, right. But you know, at the end of the day, I don't I don't want to lean back on that and just I, in hindsight, maybe that's what I should have done, because everybody walked away from that frustrated, except including the client. You know they got what they wanted, but I still think they were frustrated and yeah, nobody wins when this kind of spins out of control. Um, it might feel like you, might feel like the client pulled one over on you and maybe I felt that way at the time, but at the end of the day they're, it's not what they wanted.
Speaker 1:Um, I think you know part of it was timeline, part of it was unrealistic expectations, but they're going to end up redoing this project, whether they do it themselves, hire someone else or whatever.
Speaker 1:And I think I kind of said that in the wrap-up meeting, like, um, unprompted postpartum was like, hey, I realize you're probably not going to work with us again, uh, if you work with another videographer or what have you. You need to tell them exactly about this, the animation stuff, and they're trying to get things to line up like very precisely from a rendering which, if you know anything about renderings, renderings are very precise and real life is not right, and trying to the to meld the two can be easier said than done. Um, but when you know that going in, uh, you're, you're likely to get a better result, um, so you know, in hindsight it's probably just I shouldn't have even entertained taking on this last minute project. You know, I probably went against my gut, just thinking, oh, there's decent money in it, it seems straightforward enough, let's just do them a solid, get this done. And those are usually the projects that bite you. Right, it's just like yeah, yeah, straightforward, good money you know, I guess, what do you?
Speaker 2:how do you handle? You know, when, when you, when you've made the decision you're going to do a change request, um, what are some of the components that you put into that? Meaning, you know, are you considering foot in the door opportunity? Meaning, you know you're going to give them maybe a discount on the change request because you see the potential to do more work in the future, but you want to cover some of your, your costs. Uh, you know, do you? You know, do you just charge full price because that's just what it costs? Or I guess, what's some of your criteria?
Speaker 1:that goes into that I think the one, the, the best model we've had, um, and I think you know it's easier said than done to implement it with every client, right? Um, just because video videos can be so different, um, but I think it is something we're working towards. Standardizing is there's the set budget originally discussed, original deliverables, original money, right. Anything above that Um is hourly Um, and there'll be an email from us saying this goes outside this little change or this request has gone outside of original lines. It's going to take X amount of hours. This is the projected costs.
Speaker 1:Should we move forward or should we revisit the deliverables? Right? Do you want to take away a deliverable and swap it out or something like that video? That's a little, I think, a little easier to do as opposed to web um and that sort of thing where we could easily kind of swap out deliverables without necessarily changing too much. And sometimes that I think that's usually what happens is like okay, we'll do this type, this, this video instead of this video, or which doesn't make any difference to us, um, as long as it. You know what we shot, you know lines up with it, but and then sometimes it's yeah, great, you know, and it's just. It's just having that conversation like oh yeah, we expected this, you know, we expected it to cost more, you know? Um, there's of course always going to be clients that are are shocked that more work is going to cost more, right?
Speaker 2:but uh, I feel like those are less and less now yeah because you have to consider too, too, like we're discussing this from a creative context.
Speaker 2:You know, homeowners are dealing with contractors and general contractors all the time, right, and I think you know a plumber will have a pretty good idea what the cost will be.
Speaker 2:But then when he gets there or she gets there, it's like, well, it's actually going to be this. You know, when you gets started with the project and you're like, well, I just found all this other stuff, uh. So you know, the work that people do with us is not dissimilar, it's just, it just happens to be a little bit more magical, right, the work that we do, because it's it's done through a computer or through a lens or through software, right, and so I that's that potentially you're feeling the effect of that like more people understanding that more work means more time and more, more, more payroll time. So on our side, I like the idea of standardizing it. It's very much case to case and it's bigger. It's big picture Meaning, if we I tend to lean on the relationship side, maybe, maybe a little bit more than than we should, um, because we we do sometimes become less profitable on our projects by, by leaning on just establishing or maintaining a relationship, and I think it's it's.
Speaker 2:It's interesting. Our businesses really are a reflection of who we are as people, right? So it's like am I just a little bit of a pushover sometimes? Yeah, I think so. Right, is there something that can be done about that? Yeah, so you know, in terms of, like, the criteria, it comes down to how disruptive is the change request and are we still being held accountable to the same deadline? Those are two of the big things.
Speaker 2:If the deadline stays intact and we're adding this thing onto it, then it's generally going to be at our, like, our full rate and a little different on our side. I don't say you know, it's going to be built hourly. If you go above X, y, z, it's, I'm calculating it hourly, but I give another another fixed cost and I feel like that's a little bit of a. That's something that maybe I can explore is is saying, okay, well, yeah, anything above what we've decided on is going to be x amount per hour, uh, etc. Um, I feel like, again, it's an extension of my personality where I'm saying, well, yeah, I'm gonna have to charge you another $1,000, but there won't be any surprise costs there, because it's a flat rate $1,000, right.
Speaker 2:However, sometimes that $1,000 is not enough and it would have been better to go by the hour, right. And I guess what's coming to mind with me right now is what's best for the customer, like, what's best for the client, right. If we were to turn the table and we were working with with ourself, how would we want that interaction to go? And I think I think for the most part, we've covered the basis right. It'd be nice if we could have someone calling right now Say well, no, you didn't talk about this. Nice if we could have someone calling right now say, well, no, you didn't talk about this. But if we look through the lens of a customer, do you see anything that you just said changing a little bit or at all yeah if roles reversed.
Speaker 1:I want to hear the best case scenario price and you know, within reason, worst case scenario you know, like, like, this is the price I think it's going to be. It could be this, but if it's somewhere in between those numbers at least I know right I have an expectation of what it's going to be. Yeah, I'd rather know that in an email like hey, if we're going to move this, it's gonna be between X and Y. Do you want to move forward? Right, like that feels a lot better to me then.
Speaker 1:Oh, we went forward with it and it's gonna cost X yeah right, which I guess, depending on the industry, you know it could happen. So I think it boils down to like putting putting making the make the client make the decision right. Do they want to spend the money to to expand the scope, or do they not? They're put them in the driver's seat. I've heard nick schiffer's, co-owner of motif media with me. I've heard him say that a lot and I guess it's taken a long time to internalize, uh, for me to kind of turn around and do that. But when I've stopped stressing and like putting the stress on myself to make this decision and just put it back on the client, I think they generally are happier right and there's less stress. And you know fidgeting in my mind like this way, this way, though so I, you know, I it again easier said than done. You all this kind of goes with that being said before, but the instances when I have turned it back on the client, I think I've probably worked out the best.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, I really like that Because, thinking of it this way, think back to when you had a job and your boss said your boss involved you in the decision versus telling you to do a thing. If you're told to do a thing or you're told this is how it's going to be. Depending on your personality type, you might feel a little defensive about that, feel a little bit you versus me about that. But if you're included in the decision and let's not forget, it's the client that's actually asking for the change. So that's why I really love that approach, because if you include them in what that change means and allow them to make that decision, they feel included. They don't feel like you're in it as a team. It's not them against you. So, yeah, I like that. A lot.
Speaker 1:His analogy is putting them in the driver's seat, yeah, and you know the sports analogy put the ball in their court, right, and then you know, I think that that does make and make a lot of sense, and I guess I'm firsthand experience that's usually it seems to have worked out the best. Yeah, uh, in the two instances I'm thinking of because I think creatives and I think in a lot of ways it's similar to builders is when those requests come in, we, we feel the burden of trying to figure it out and make it work within the budget or the constraints. We try to make it work within what's been provided to us, instead of saying, look, you just moved the goalposts right, so here are the stakes now, right, right? Um, that doesn't look fine.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, we yeah exactly. We feel a a a new sense of responsibility because of the new information. But it wasn't. It wasn't information coming from us. Right, it's? Yeah, it's, it's new. But our attachment to that information doesn't have to be so extreme. I suppose it just comes back down to asking people for money, and I think it's not always a comfortable thing to ask, you know, asking for more money.
Speaker 1:No, it definitely isn't, and I think we're kind of creatives, are definitely hardwired to not all, but a lot of us probably the vast majority of us sort of put the money in the backseat and it's more about the work and you know, doing a good job and building up that portfolio for the next one and so on, and we've probably cost ourselves quite a bit of money and stress and heartache in the process.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And from the client's point of view, on that, I'd care to wager a good percentage of them probably would have paid that extra money if they'd known what they're asking required so much more work, uh, and maybe in some cases happily done it and they're just we're making the decision for them. Oh, no more money. Uh, they're going to be upset when and maybe probably in reality, it's like okay, yeah, I didn't expect it to be free, or yeah.
Speaker 2:I have heard that before yeah, yeah, we expected it to cost something. Yeah, and it's like after a day or so of deliberating on whether or not to charge more for it, they're like, yeah, we expect it, this is not what it is. So it's that saying spending with your wallet.
Speaker 1:Right, exactly, yeah.
Speaker 2:I think it's easy to get caught up in that Like, well, could I afford this or something like that? Yeah.
Speaker 1:I think overall it seems to all tie back to communication, right Setting boundaries and setting a procedure, putting a procedure in place like those, those three kinds of things. I guess it's all under the umbrella of communication. Usually these things can be avoided, Cause what's the worst that can happen?
Speaker 2:I'm sorry to cut you off, though usually these things can be avoided Absolutely, because what's the worst that can happen?
Speaker 1:I'm sorry to cut you off, though, no, just from the get-go. If the communication is clear from the beginning, it's going to help the end result as opposed to stress and misery.
Speaker 2:Yeah, stress and misery let's avoid that as much as possible. Misery, yeah, stress and misery let's avoid that as much as possible. You know, yeah, the presenting back to the client, you know, hey, this is what it will be. There really shouldn't be much stress in that if we've done the work leading up to that point to what you were just referring to. And what comes to mind too is, yeah, it's one thing like in our previous episode talking about kickoff meetings and the importance of communication in those kickoff meetings but also resetting the table maybe midway through the project too, and just reminding everybody.
Speaker 2:You know, we have some tools that we use to. Whenever we have a status meeting, we say, okay, we're at line 30 of 54, you know, this is what's coming up next, that type of thing, but within that, maybe there's an opportunity. Well, first of all, to remember to do that and then, secondly, to just be vocal. Oh, notice that this other person got joined on to the meeting. Do they have inputs that you think might change the trajectory of this?
Speaker 2:We're on line 30 of X. Do you think we're going to have more lines added to this? And if so, we can talk about our process for that and not avoiding the potential monster in the room Just by constantly talking about it. The client will then know, okay, well, internally, when they're discussing, oh, we want to make this change, they're going to say, well, remember, eric or Doug mentioned that there's change, they have a process for that and it's probably going to cost us more money. So is it really that important that we add it to the project now? Yeah, it just normalizes it If we, if we bring it up early and often.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's a good point. And I do like that idea of a middle, some sort of midpoint check-in, you know, for particularly long. We don't have too many like super long-term projects, but we have some of them. Um, that is a nice, that's a nice. I think that is something worth considering, just to a check-in where we're at and where we've got to go, um, but definitely see that making a ton of sense on the website.
Speaker 2:Yeah, more so. You're right, that example is more on the web dev side, especially if it's in the app of some kind that could be measured in the years. But yeah, on the marketing services side, even on the consulting side, just reminding how did we get here? Where are we? How'd we get here? We have to imagine too, that, sure, when we have the attention of a client on a meeting, as soon as the, as soon as zoom is turned off, they're onto the next thing. But we're, we're, we're still there with the project, but they're off to the next project they have, or they're off to this other thing, right, and we're not front of mind anymore. So I think that constant reminding is key for us, but also for them.
Speaker 1:There we go. That's kind of our take on scope creep and something we talked about last week kickoff meetings. These two topics are pretty close together, you know, one kind of feeds the other. It all seems a tie to communication.
Speaker 2:Exactly.
Speaker 1:But yeah, that's it. I'm Doug Duvall. You can find me at motifmediacom and motifmediaco on Instagram, and we do high-end video production and podcast production here in Boston.
Speaker 2:Yep, and I'm Eric Wang. You can find me at our website the best place is withdarbycom, and while you're there, you'll see that we are in four buckets. We have marketing services, web development, consulting and managed services, so creative contextnet.
Speaker 1:Yes, you're going to be able to find this podcast, yeah and um, you know some other things that might be adjoining it as well yes, many things in in the pipeline all right. Right, Thanks everyone.
Speaker 2:Okay, next time you.
