The Power of Referrals in Creative Businesses

In this episode, co-hosts Douglas Duvall of Motif Media and Eric Wing of Darby Digital dive into the importance of referrals, word-of-mouth marketing, and strategic partnerships for creative professionals.

Referral Process and Initial Interactions (0:00)
Experiences with BNI and Referral Groups (0:55)
The Role of Referrals in Business (2:27)
Building Trust and Maintaining Relationships (7:01)
Strategies for Effective Referral Marketing (9:14)
The Impact of Referral Marketing on Reputation (32:40)
Challenges and Opportunities in Referral Marketing (37:48)
Final Thoughts and Closing Remarks (38:31)

📌 Topics Covered: referrals, word-of-mouth marketing, networking, BNI, partnership marketing, consulting, reputation management, patience, indifference, content recommendations

📢 Key Takeaways: referrals are vital, building trust takes time, managing referral relationships, leveraging partnerships, value of consulting, importance of reputation

🚀 Don’t forget to like, subscribe, and hit the notification bell for more insights into the world of creative professionals and those who work with them!

🔗 Connect with Us:

Douglas Duvall

motifmedia.com for high-end video production.

Eric Wing

withdarby.com for digital marketing and web development services.

Transcript

0:00

Let's say you referred someone to me today, and I reach out, and I'm like, oh, nice to meet you, you know, Doug, thanks for the introduction. Person being referred to me. You know, that set up time to talk or whatever. And let's say I never hear back from that person. I'm not going to bother the person that was referred to me. I don't even know who they are. I'm going to bother you. Doug, by the way, did you hear from you know, I haven't heard from them. And what are you going to do? You can be like, Hey, you're going to reach out to Eric. You haven't reached out to Eric yet. If you play your cards right and you're strategic in a positive way, you can kind of like, get the person, kind of like, stuck in the mud on whether or not they want to reach out to you. You can get them to reach out to you. I Welcome to Creative context where we're talking about creative professionals and the people that work with them. Today we're going to talk about something it's pretty vital to creatives, referrals, word of mouth, marketing and everything in between. Funny enough, that's how you and I met Eric. We met in a referral group known as BNI, for those of you out there in the networking world. It was actually, I think it was both of our is the second group I joined. I think is the second group you joined, right? Third, technically, I joined, I joined a BNI that had just started, and it promptly failed. So I count that one too, but yeah, I've been in and out of BNI for many years now. Yeah, my first go of it was kind of like you. It was a new group, and everybody was sort of eager to get rolling. And it was right at I was very early on in my first business, and I think I was in it for about a year, and then left, and I think the group just got absorbed by another group shortly thereafter, not because I left, just naturally, the group wasn't sort of ready. Yeah, versus the group you and I met in, which is full of people who've been in the group for like, 15 plus years, and I the only reason I really left was so we could do this. I only had so much time to dedicate. I'm trying to practice what I preach. I do a lot of podcast production. But what has your experience been with referrals? Not necessarily from BNI or referral groups, but kind of your relationship with referrals? Yeah, referrals continue. I think they always will be a part of how we get new business. We see them as like, there's there, there are the initial introductions. And then there's the referrals, like warm, warm referrals and kind of like handoffs, which tend to be more successful. And then there are the referrals we get from, like, current, current accounts. They're referring people that they know, or just re referring themselves to us, if that, if that even counts as a referral, but essentially like more sales within within the organization, but maybe a different department, sure, but the area that we are in the most would most likely be the warm handoff referrals and, yeah, I would say, I say it's a. I don't, I don't have an exact number, but i It's a. It's a significant amount of our new business. And the referrals are interesting because it's, you know, you could have a, you could have a lead or a prospect come in just cold from your website, or you could have an equally, you know, warm or cold introduction happen in your email from someone that you know who's referring someone that you do not know. The difference being is the person that's referring you has put their neck out on the line for you, and that dynamic is is night and day over that warm lead or whatever coming in from your website or from social or advertising and other marketing avenues. So there's this, there's this underlying expectation to to uphold the trust of the person who referred you, you're essentially an extension of them now, and I find that an interesting dynamic, an interesting like human dynamic. How does that play out for you? In terms of like, you know how you feel when someone gives you an opportunity in your relationship to them, yeah? For sure, you don't want to let them down, first and foremost, yeah, yeah. So I think you and I are both in that, you know, Mainers. You don't want to let people down, people pleasers. So generally speaking, when I get a referral from someone who's. You know, like you said, put their neck on the line, like you want to deliver. You don't want there to be any sort of, well, I mean, you know, so and so, vouch for you. I can't believe, you know, this didn't work out or something. Yeah, never want that to be the case. Yeah, creative referrals is such an interesting thing, because early on. It's it's kind of vital the word of mouth referrals you know, you might take on that first client for virtually no money or no money, in hopes that they give you that you know, that handoff to the next person or what have you. So it is kind of an interesting we've talked about it before as well. But in the creative space, it is a weird it is a weird thing because not everybody sees the value of creatives, yep. But when you do get that genuine hand, that genuine referral of like, Hey, I've spent a lot of money with this person, they do great stuff for me. I think they're a great fit for you. And you know, whether it's in person or through an email or something, those are, like you said, that's 90% of my business. Probably, yeah, maybe, maybe more, yeah, it's a real thing. Yeah, it's, it's so very few of those cold referrals from website or what have you become more than just a transactional client like, you know, shoot here, shoot there, kind of thing. Those, those referrals become the best partnerships, like the legit and basically, that's why Nick and I started this company together. Is he was sending, when I was in business for myself, he was like a referral machine for me. Or, you know, my, my first company by myself. It was vital, you know, put food on the table for sure. Yeah, yeah, the you know, you mentioned BNI. I It's so funny. You should mention BNI, actually, because I have a renewal notice in my inbox right now. I'm up for my one year renewal, and I've been accepted. I can stay in the club is voted that I am a viable member. And so interesting from that though, is there, you know, we, we are doing business with a fair number of people in the in that room, but I love to see how long it takes for trust to be established. And now we, we've danced on trust here and there in our conversations and creative context here, but the it's really noticeable when you when you are part of a group like a like BNI, you go weekly. We do three virtual one in person. How long it can take to build trust when you're when you're even when it's when it's happening in such a organized and structured way, right? So these people I see every week, we have little networking opportunities. I hear about their business, they hear about my business, and yesterday, I took a phone call with someone in the group who's interested in working with us, and it essentially took a year, a year of hearing commercials, a year of hearing other people talk about us, for them to feel comfortable, to reach out. And it's really fascinating to me, because we oftentimes think of even a handshake through an email like, hey, I want you to I want to introduce you to my friend who needs your services, or it's a lead from a website or from a trade show or something. We we how quickly we move people through the sales process, and they don't. They don't know where to begin trusting us. They probably don't trust us when entering into an agreement, it's more of like faith. They're just like I hope this is going to work out, if, if I can see on the other side of referrals happening after a full year of knowing who I am, right? So it's an interesting dynamic and but I will say that to your point about how viable it is, the those referrals that do sign up with us, whether it's for web dev marketing services, they they, they tend to be more engaged in the process, because, guess what, they also have an obligation back to the person that referred them to us, right? So this person that is doing the referring is really now the pivot between, between the two people, and there's a almost like this unspoken expectation that I referred you to this person. Did you reach out to them, or did you hear back from. Them, oh, when you think you're going to reach out, oh, I referred you in. So that person, in a way, is helping you to move them along your sales process in a way. And that expectation on our side is to make sure that we receive their referral in a way that's that's upholding the values of our business and what they think of us. So the whole dynamic of a referral if done correctly or if done in any way, there's a lot of learned skills, I think, in how to handle because no one really teaches you how to network and how to receive referrals right out. Yeah, it's definitely a trial and error that is interesting to think about the pressure on the other side of the referral. I guess you don't really, really think of that too often. Yeah, yeah. Because what I'll do is I'll sometimes, so let's say, let's say you referred someone to me today, right? And I and I reach out, and I'm like, oh, nice to meet you. You know, Doug, thanks for the introduction. You know person being referred to me. You know, that's enough time to talk or whatever. And I say I never hear back from that person. I'm not gonna bother the person that was referred to me. I don't even know who they are. I'm gonna bother you. Doug, by the way, did you hear from you know, I haven't heard from them. And what are you gonna do? You gonna be like, Hey, you're gonna reach out to Eric. You haven't reached out to Eric yet. If you, if you play your cards, right, and you're strategic in a in a positive way, you can kind of like, get the person, kind of like, stuck in the mud on whether or not they want to reach out to you. You can get them to reach out to you, right? Yeah. So, well, of course, if, if the circumstance you know is appropriate for it, of course, but Right, yeah, I actually do have a referral for you. Funny enough, very nice. Yeah, it is that is really interesting to think of that side of it. I guess I'd really never thought of that side of it, or there's kind of a pressure on them as well. But I've kind of done that inherently, not even really thinking that, like, Oh, hey, I reached out to so and so I haven't heard back from him. Have you spoken to him recently? Like, I guess I didn't even even realize Yeah. And sometimes the person who gives the referral will ask, like, oh, I gave them your number. Have they reached out? And you're like, I haven't, you know, I haven't heard from they're like, you know, right? Then, yep, reach out to this first. Yeah. So that person is super valuable if you know you had mentioned that Nick was, but what I like to call it golden goose, yeah, oh, keeps laying these golden eggs. Like so many, it's just beautiful to have a golden goose, but they become an indispensable part of your sales team, essentially, is you become reliant on, you know, wow. They usually send me three introductions in a month, and I usually close two of those. Like, I can now count on this. This is really something. So I think for creative pros that are listening to this, think about, think about your your networking in such a way, who can you align with that is a comparable business that's non competing with you, where they're constantly talking to the people that you want to do business with and the person that you network with wants to feel great. There's a real energy when you can give somebody a referral. There is a tangible energy that comes with that. And if they can, if you can find that situation, or enough of them, in fact, that can become your sales department, you just have people generating leads for you on a regular basis, and it can be a really beautiful thing. We've danced with that we've over the last 17 years, we've had a couple of situations of having, like, one, one and a half of these golden geese, right? And it it really, it seems too good to be true, to be honest with you, because every time you turn around, you have a new opportunity in your inbox from them, and you can get, it can get a little sticky if you, if you start incentivizing that for them, and the different ways to incentivize it can get, I was telling you off camera about a situation I got myself in, but, yeah, but referral bonuses and and whatnot, but, but if you strip all of that aside, And if it really just in the pure nature of referral marketing, the person that you're aligning yourself with, ideally would be on the receiving end of referrals coming from you, because your clients, the people you work with, are complimentary to who they want to work with. If you can find that that relationship it's a really beautiful thing, yeah, and only to tie it back to relationships, like we always do, but like, yeah, it only strengthens. Like, the person who's giving you a lot of referrals, right? When it comes time to do their project, you're giving 110 right? We. Oh, yeah, this person's vital to us. They're very important to us. We're, we're going to roll out the right carpet for them. Yep, there's priorities that come with that. And yeah, absolutely, yeah. When they have those urgent requests or whatever, it's like, okay, yep, yeah. Problem, yeah, no. Problem, exactly. Very indispensable. You know, when you lose a golden goose. You feel it because you're not just losing a client. You're losing a potential of like 10 clients over the course of a year or whatever. And so, yeah, I love that. I love that, that idea, in fact, we, you know, there, we're not too far off from from when you're talking about referral marketing. There's also sort of like this partnership marketing, marketing as well, where you you can interface with maybe a larger business. And, you know, a good, good example, not to go too far off on a tangent, but something that I've been looking into doing is, you know, there's a, there's a company called RCN, who, I think they're called astound now, they basically telecommunications like cable and internet and whatnot, but they're based in Arlington. They have a large office in Arlington, and they appeal to businesses for their broadband services and whatnot. And an ideal partnership, just give those listening an idea would be if we partnered as their digital marketing advertising partner to all of their business clients. So when they're signing up a business account for Internet in whatever else, like telecommunications, they can also package in with that, advertising services, marketing services, branding services, and all we need to do is be on the receiving end and keep that relationship healthy. And RCN would continue to send their their leads with us, leads to us rather. So that's an idea that's kind of extending this referral marketing out to more of a partnership marketing, which you get to that level that can really change a business, that can change your business overnight, if you, if you score one of those licensing deals, you know, it's, it's really powerful. So something else for people to look into, if they're, they're interested in alternative ways of growing their business that don't include like your standard, well, the standard services that my company offers actually, right? Yeah. RCN, I had I used their services at the old apartment I used to live in. Gotcha, yeah. Very affordable internet. RCN, for the area anyway, going back to what you said earlier about things taking us a solid year, for a solid year to kind of trust, or whatever, that, whatever form it is, for people to reach out, you know, there's a referral, kind of a cold referral, and it almost a year to the day. We find we just, we just sent out a first cut of a video we did for them, and it took a year of sort of like, back and forth conversations, like, oh, this thing didn't work out. The next one, you know, that sort of thing. But it was just trying to stay in front of them. Hey, what's going on? You know? Yep, and it sounds like we're probably going to do some more stuff for him, but it was kind of like a cold referral. It wasn't like a it wasn't like a handoff or anything, and it just just keeping at it. And it took a year. It took a year. It just did not happen quickly. And that's something when you're young, if it doesn't happen in a week or two weeks or something, you kind of feel defeated a little bit. And that's probably the biggest takeaway, is it just takes time, it doesn't to get to that RCN situation you're talking about. It does not happen, you know, two months in, yeah, yeah, takes time. In fact, takes more time than I have right now. It's really ironic like that, that deal, or ideal like it, we're looking at doing some similar deals with some local banks as well and for their business clients. And it's a, it's something you have to be committed to. It, you know, it's a multi year talk about, talk about, like, networking. I mean, you have to really get in the in the sort of the ecosystem of whatever, whatever entity you're trying to interface with. And it can take a lot of time and but the payoff can be huge. Similar, like, to your point, like you, you were patient for a year, and now, now here, here's the payday, right? Like you're now have the opportunity to do some work with them and, and I have a lot of stories like that where, where patience has paid. Need off. There's, there's someone that there's someone that said to me recently, in fact, it's someone that you know from BNI. I won't say his name and see if you can guess who it is, just based on what I'm about to say. But talks about the success formula, or the sales formula, he calls it, and it being the end. The end of his formula is indifference on whether or not you close that sale, because if you cling too much to the referral, converting the the the you know this person you have a proposal with you, can risk coming across as being desperate, and people can smell that a mile away. And so his coaching talks about send, send the send the proposal over with a with an air of indifference on whether it doesn't matter to you. If you get the if they sign with you or not, if they sign with you, great. If they don't, you're on to the next one with more indifference. And it's powerful. It's not it's easier said than done, but I think it's powerful advice. I have a strong feeling I know who you're talking about. He's full of golden advice. The person I'm thinking of, yeah, actually, I sent out a, I got a cold referral, you know, this morning from the website. And, you know, I've always, you know, the boilerplate thing you send out of always kind of modifying and tweaking. And it used to be like maybe a small paragraph, and then it's like two lines, and now it's just like a line, you know, I've just kind of gotten it down to like, if they're if they depending on the answer to this question. Usually I can tell, like, how far is this going to go? Yeah, I it's two. It's actually two questions, but it's, it's two very short questions, what are you trying to do, and how can we help effectively? And that's not verbatim, but it's essentially, those are the two questions, yeah. And then after that, my next question, if they respond, you know, most of the time they don't, you know, 70% of the time I'd say that don't even respond to that. It's budget. Yeah, right, because you gotta, you have to get that out. And you're early, early on. I used to include that in the initial but now it's like, I move it out, but that, that weeds out most people, or people are kicking tires. They're just looking to get a number, to get somebody else they're working with, get their number down, because this person, you know, I mean, yeah, I feel like those, those kind of three questions, really boil down to the point and get things rolling in a positive direction. Yeah, I love it. I might borrow that the like, what are you looking to accomplish? What was the other one you looking to accomplish? What was the other what? Yeah, what are you looking to accomplish? And how can we help? Oh, yeah. And how can we help, yeah? Like, how do you see us solving the problem? Yeah. And most times, people don't even know what their problem is, right? They don't just, they know they should be doing video or podcasting, but they don't even have a goal for it, right, right? So that gets them thinking right off the bat, like, what are we trying to do? Yeah, I think for especially for you from on my side, yeah, we can. We can get pretty far along before we need the answers to those questions. But on your side, like you literally are creating an asset. If you don't know what to create, or I see that as an opportunity in you may already be approaching it this way. But if someone, if one's if someone says no to that first question, what are you looking to create? Or another way of answering that question would be like, what problem are you solving? Or whatever? Right? If they say no to that, I might even put in a new service level where they're just they're gonna buy you as a consultant. They're not gonna buy you as a videographer at first, you know, yeah, because they're essentially telling you they need and if you if, again, I'm assuming that you're not doing this, but maybe you already are. But if, if you were to ignore the answer to that question and still find your way and selling to them, you're now going to be consulting for free. This is going to be something that's packaged in, right? And so, like, your hourly rate actually goes down. That's effectively what I've been doing and giving it away, yeah, essentially, I have been thinking about that more and more, because it's like, when I think about the first few kind of meetings I have with someone who's i. Like, motivated and wants to, you know, start working with us. I'm, I'm helping them kind of figure that out at a high level, down to the weeds. So it's like, like you said, it's just kind of baked in at this point, yep. And I think it really does need to be separated case by case, I think there will be times when, you know, like, right now, I've been giving free business coaching to someone who's getting a consulting business off the ground, and it was originally a referral from someone in BNI, and has essentially just turned into free consulting because I feel good like I like it. I like the guy. It feels awesome to help you know, but if, in my mind, I was still trying to chase the sale, I'd be resentful every time I've been watching the clock, like, God, this guy's got another hour of my time. I didn't even charge him, right? Like, I don't have no idea. Like, today he asked about like, website builders, so it's clear he doesn't intend to hire us to do a website, which is fine, because I have approached this in under the mindset of, like, No, I'm not in this to make any money. I'm in this because it just, for whatever reason, it feels awesome to just help this guy for free. You're getting value from it. Yeah, I get, like, a I get intangible value for giving back, right and so, but in your case, or if back in I guess more specifically in my case, if I had, if I had made a deal with myself that I was going to help this guy, because I'm hopeful that in a month I'm going to sell to him, then that changes the whole dynamic, right? And I think that free that I think a lot of times consulting is, is an undervalued skill set that we bring to the table for our clients, right? They see the end product. But getting getting to the point where we can start working on the end product, is a lot of brain power for us to bring somebody along, right? And so I do the same thing, like I'm constantly giving consulting for free when and on website, usually on web dev projects or app projects or something, and that's what actually, that's why I had an eye on that question. Was because I also fall victim to it, like, Okay, we'll just rope this in. We're going to be doing it anyway, like, we have to have these conversations anyway. But it's, it's really, it's really, it's degrading the it's degrading the project in ways that can be dangerous if, if gone on unchecked for too long. Yeah, got my, got my, got my wheels turning here. Yeah, it's definitely something that like. And to circle back here a little bit like it's okay to not have the answers to those questions, but you have to realize they do have to be answered, right? Yeah, there needs to be some sort of goal, or we're just, we're just throwing stuff at the wall. So that's a good I like that. Yeah, I gotta think on that. How to best, yeah, integrate that into the process. And there's a client that I've been working with, you know, we had one sort of long initial meeting where I sort of brain dumped, like the Pro. It was for a podcast. I sort of brain dumped everything that needs to be done to get from nothing to starting recording, right? And, you know, they were super appreciative that, I think they are going to work with us, but I'm like, that's, you know, it was an, I was probably an hour meeting, maybe a little over, but it's like, that that should be something that's like, it's not that what I'm doing is a secret, but, like, you can easily find it on YouTube, and it might take you four hours or five or six to get all the information I provided in that one hour. Yeah, or, you know, maybe you don't even do it at all. You start and flake off on it or something. But, yeah, that's a good it's a good thought, also from from the wise person that you also know in the BNI group, he's on record kind of talking about renaming or repositioning services that people are aware of now because they have preconceived notions or ideas about what consulting does right and right. Or like, yeah, Deloitte. Or like, in pop culture, a lot of times, is like, Oh, what do you do for a living? I'm a consultant. Like everyone's consultants. Like, what do you consultant of what? You know, it's like, it's become a punchline, in a way. And so, you know, for his advice to me was to re, re, reposition, SEO. So. Services, because everyone's heard of SEO. They've been burnt on it. They've had bad experiences, they've this, they've that, they've heard of all the scams and whatever. And here I come in a very earnest and genuine way, talking about SEO, but it's falling on deaf ears because people have been burnt. So if you reposition it and you call it, generating more traffic to your website instead of calling it SEO, then you might wake those people up. So same thing with the word consulting, right? Yeah, I will sometimes default to advisement, advising. It's the same thing, essentially. Or you could, you know, renaming that as like the initial, the initial planning process, without giving it an actual title, just like, describe what it is. And like, Okay, for the initial planning process, it's going to be 800 bucks, and then that will, that will lead us into, you know, phase one of production, right? It'll make sure that we're, we're whatever, right? So there's some ideas that come to mind, but yeah, that word consulting can turn some people off. Now the wheels are turning. Yeah. For a long time I call myself a marketing consultant and a loaded term, yeah, because then you have the word marketing in there, people don't either understand or don't trust that word marketing also, and so it's like, yeah, so now, now I've got this weird relationship with titles and stuff, but, yeah, it's like, Guru, the word everybody in from 2004 to like, 2014 right? As kind of like the rise of Twitter, like people would have, you know, marketing guru, software guru, like, like, What the What does that even mean? Like, yeah, it just became a catch all for someone that knows more than the average person about something, yeah, it's cringy, honestly, now it is, yeah. Now it's like, no one. No one is Yeah, throwing that in their bio or whatever. But I hear clients, clients clients will refer to us sometimes, like, sometimes I'm the tech guy, or I'm the marketing guru. And it's usually like an older, yes, older generation, plus the phrases are just catching up. Because I when I hear Guru, I think, like Eastern philosophy, like yogis or something, that's what I think when I hear guru, yeah, it's like a spiritual term that was hijacked, like, like, Shaman, yeah, I'm sure there's some people that threw that in there by Oh yeah, there's marketing Shaman. I think there's like, marketing shaman.com. Is probably, yeah, I think that's a thing. Yeah, it's too funny. But yeah, we miss you in the group, but I'm glad, I'm glad I have you on these podcasts instead. Yeah, no, it's a good group. It was, it was not an easy decision to and, I mean, I was only there 10 months. It's not like, yeah, you know, there's a cup of coffee, but, you know, there's a lot of good people in there, but I'm going to be visiting shortly. I'm going to film your one of your talks coming up in a couple of weeks. But, yeah, it'd be fun. Yeah, it's not like I moved to Alaska. I'm still around. Yeah, you see a lot of those people still at the at the Napo. Is it pro New England, from New England? Yeah, yeah. Actually, there must be an event coming up for that soon. But yeah, I'm, I'm still kind of involved with that as well. So the groups over there, so as we kind of tail this, kind of bring this conversation to an end. Any? Any closing thoughts. Final thoughts, I think that referral marketing for for the creative professional, is really important and can be really impactful. But there's like ways of doing it. There's consistency, there's follow up, follow through, right there, there's it's work. Just because the the person's being kind of like delivered to you, the lead is being delivered to you. In some ways, you have to work a little bit harder, because they, they don't know like or trust you. They know like and trust the person that is referring them to you, so you have a little bit of initial uphill battle to establish trust and credibility fast and kind of like early and often. And to also think about, in the same respect, referral marketing being an extension of dating, to expect that person to show up in your inbox like cold, from a referral of theirs, from someone they know, and to expect that you'll be writing a proposal for them in the following week is probably like a little bit out of touch with with how it will really go there. There's a. Yeah, I've done that. I've there have been people that are super motivated, and our service is really easy to understand that they need, and they're just willing to go quick. But for the most part, it's like another opportunity for you to nurture them along. And like you said earlier, about the patients, so maintaining patience and in the last note on that is referral marketing can make or break your general reputation. Reputation is really huge, and it's on full display when you have people referring to you. If you screw up a couple of those, they're going to stop referring to you, because you're making them look bad. And and then finally, if you do join a BNI, or there's another great group called provisors, that as soon as you join, you are now really responsible for that, your reputation for everybody that's in that group. And so if you're doing work with the guy sitting next to you, he's talking to the person that's sitting next to him. And if you do a great job, it goes around quick. If you do a bad job, it goes around quick. And showing up at those BNI more meetings with a little bit of like awkwardness in the air, it is really hard to show up at those meetings. So my point being referral marketing doesn't mean that you're just getting, like, a free sale, and it really means that it's the opportunity to start the sales process, and there's quite a bit of professional work that has to be done to make it to make it all work. Yeah. So that's true, and it's hurry up and wait, you know, yep, super responsive, but be ready to wait it out. Yeah, indifference. Indifference is, is something I've been working on, especially from like a photographer, videographer side of it, like they are they can be key. They can be crucial. They can certainly make you but I also don't you're not beholden to anything, you know. If you I say this because there's a lot of that, like, Hey, do this one for me for free, and I'll refer you to all my friends, you know. And there's a lot of four letter words that I could say to people that have done that to me, and then nothing ever came of it, right? So, like, don't, it's not the end all be, all right? And it's a cool client, and it's someone, it's the type of work you want to do. You have to be, you have to weigh the balance, right? Like, hey, even if I don't get paid, even if I don't get a referral, it's a great thing. I want to do it good. You've got the value. You're locked in if it's something you don't even want to do and but they know a lot of people, or whatever, you have to weigh the value. But don't be don't shackle yourself to someone that's going to you know, lead you along, and definitely to just get free work out of you beautiful is something you have to really be aware of and conscious of, especially now there's less of it. Like, I don't think it's as bad because of, you know, the internet and the ability to kind of put somebody on blast that's screwing people over. But, you know, sometimes that viral rant you try to get people to share doesn't. It doesn't take off, you know, and 100 people see it, and that person keeps on doing whatever it is they're doing, right? Doesn't they don't all go viral. So just be conscious of that too, especially young creatives. If you got, if you've gotten several years in, you've figured it out. But yeah, yeah, any cool content you've checked out last week or so? Yeah, I keep meeting to check up with you on Tom Campbell and see if you're still almost, almost through the first book of just just picked it back up a couple days ago. I've been reading this one. In fact, I was just referring it to the guy I'm consulting I told you about earlier, yep, building a story brand by Donald Miller, it. Have you heard of it? Yeah, I've read it twice, yeah. Or did I mention it to you? No, I've heard of it. Yeah. It's, I think it's brilliant. It's kind of positioning yourself as a as the guide, instead of the hero. And too often, creative professionals position ourselves as the hero. Look at my portfolio. About me, my business, etc, and positioning that to be the solution to the problems the right and I think that's super smart. It's super simple, but also really easy to forget sometimes. Yeah, no, I kind of have a kind of a love hate relationship with that book. I agree. I agree it is brilliant, but I think some people misconstrued what it's about. We could talk about that another time. I do like it, though I do, I do come back to it every now and again. I'm always it's always movies with me. I watched gladiator two on the airplane last week. Cool. I had a quick trip to Arizona last week, and it was not the best film would not, would not recommend, and I re watched a classic Steve Martin and Eddie Murphy movie, bow finger. I don't know if you've ever seen that, no finger, no finger. Yeah, no, I haven't. I would definitely recommend giving that a look. Heather Graham's in it, young Jamie, Kennedy, Oh, wow. They must have all been quite young then. Yeah, 90s movie, maybe, yeah, I think it's late 90s under underappreciated. I think it definitely bombed at the box office, but it was, it was a good one. It's on Amazon Prime right now. All right. Well, creative context.net, creative context, underscore on Instagram and just creative context on YouTube, and all the places you download podcasts were there, and We'll see you next week. See you next week. Foreign. Sure.