Balancing Your Creative Team with Employees and Freelancers

In this episode, co-hosts Douglas Duvall of Motif Media and Eric Wing of Darby Digital dive into the intricacies of working with subcontractors in creative industries. They explore the nuances of managing external talent, discussing communication strategies, payment considerations, and the balance between maintaining professional standards and allowing creative autonomy.

• Working with Subcontractors: Introduction and Initial Thoughts (0:00)
• Challenges and Considerations in Managing Subcontractors (2:50)
• Douglas' Subcontractor Management Approach (5:19)
• Reasons for Hiring Subcontractors vs. Full-Time Employees (9:54)
• Balancing Control and Autonomy with Subcontractors (15:13)
• Revenue Generation and Referral Strategies (21:34)
• Final Thoughts and Best Practices (29:51)

📌 Topics Covered:
Subcontractor management, creative industry workflows, contractor vs. full-time employee considerations, referral strategies, communication protocols, revenue generation, project flexibility, professional relationships

📢 Key Takeaways:
Transparent communication, maintain quality standards, flexible work arrangements, clear role definition, timely payments, relationship-first approach, autonomy matters, strategic referrals, trust-building, project-specific hiring

🚀 Don’t forget to like, subscribe, and hit the notification bell for more insights into the world of creative professionals and those who work with them!

🔗 Connect with Us:

Douglas Duvall

motifmedia.com for high-end video production.

Eric Wing

withdarby.com for digital marketing and web development services.

Transcript

0:00

Eric, welcome to creative context. Today, we are talking about working with subcontractors. So many times, professionals out there will hire a creative team like Eric or myself, and sometimes something happens outside of the wheel of our expertise or our scope capabilities, and we rely on subcontractors, much like a builder who handles general construction would hire an electrician to do electrical work or a plumber to do plumbing work because that's what they specialize in, or bring in an extra crew, or something very similar in the creative field. So what is your kind of expertise or thoughts on working with subcontractors? Yeah, we treat them like, like they're they're like they're an employee, but I, you know, I treat them like a w2 employee. We hold them to the same standards, you know, same communication expectations, whatnot. And for the most part, our with the work that we do, the contractors come in by way of niche development requirements that we have. So we have, we have an in house development team, but they specialize in, you know, our common web development software protocols, or, you know, coding languages, but we have a handful of contractors that we that that that oversee maybe just one account, right? So, you know, contractor A is assigned to account A, and then B, C, D, E and, and it's, it's an extension of our team, and we include them in our, you know, Team communications and whatnot, but, but they are technically a contractor 1099, and, and just over the years, you, You, you take your bumps, you take your lumps with with the you know, in fact, when I first started the business, all I had were contractors, and it's a learning process, especially if there's a language barrier. You know, we, we have developers that are brilliant in in coding, but maybe English isn't their first language, right? So then you're dealing with like, how much access to the client do we allow the contractor to have? Will it will create question questions or confusions or whatnot? So, so, yeah, I think, I think it's important to not give them different standards. Otherwise your business can become fragmented, going in different directions, but at the same time, you may need to have a project manager or someone that interfaces with the client. And let's face it, a lot of developers, and if there's developers listening today, no offense, but you probably get what I'm saying. Like a lot of times, developers don't have a lot of people skills to begin with. You know, very dialed in to programming, and so that's the consideration we had to learn about along the way too. But, but, yeah, it's, it's quite common for us, not on the marketing services side. We do all that in house. Occasionally there'll be a need for maybe animation or illustration work of some kind that that our everyday graphic designer just doesn't have the the training in. But it's the same idea on that side. We will, we will, oftentimes they will have an email address off of our domain. They appear like an employee if they're going to be customer facing, yeah, and that's all that is an important maybe we'll get into it later in today's discussion. But the the appearance of a cohesive team is really important for the client. If they see multiple people on the email, some have gmail.com, some have their own domain. Some have your domain, it really starts to fragment your positioning to the client and the in the in the host of potential for it anyway, at least something that I've been sort of sensitive to. And so that's a consideration that I recommend, that the folks look into as well. But, yeah, but again, I'm curious on your on your end, what that might what contractors might look like. Yeah, so. So we have Paul is director of photography. So he's a motif full time employee. His primary function is just shooting. And sometimes I asked him to edit things, usually smaller, you know, less than two minute kind of edits. And then currently we have two subcontractors. One is kind of exclusively doing podcasts, so I'm very transparent about this. In the podcast process, I help set up the podcast, and I'm involved for probably the first month of production, and then I sort of hand it to Peter, and Peter just like just runs with it, and he's he's vital to the operation, like you say, We he's treated as though he's one of the team. He's very much a self sustaining he checks in with me when he has questions. And he he sort of knows the type of things I'm going to catch on to, and he kind of is very proactive about it. Like, one of the things we kind of deal with is tracking down headshots. He'll send me, like, a list, like, hey, need headshots for so, so, so on this podcast, this podcast, this podcast, and then I can, kind of, he is client facing with one particular podcast. We do only because he's, like, a super fan of that podcast. It's about, it's about building science. And he's like, a big building science guy, so like, I've kind of brought him in just because I think it makes better for him. And in the show, the other the other podcasts, I'm, I'm kind of the focal point, not that I have to, once a podcast gets rolling, there's not a heck of a lot of communication, unless the client changes a sponsor or something to that effect. There's really not a lot of communication that when there's communication, something's gone wrong, usually. So that's pretty that's pretty vital. He's Peter's a part of the team. And I, like I said, I communicate that up front, like, Hey, I'm going to be involved a lot in the beginning, and then it sort of transitions to Peter's plate. It's just kind of how it is. And you know, he's going to make sure you're, in most cases, probably several weeks ahead, as opposed to, you know, being behind or things not releasing on time. So he's, he's a vital piece of it. And then Powell, who's a editor in Poland, he kind of does project by project when we need editing expertise. He's like a high level editor. We're going to him to kind of make something out of nothing, like he's kind of an artistic he's got an artistic element to his editing, and we're very fortunate to get to work with him. So it's very unique circumstances. We send him a project. The bulk of the editing still kind of goes through me, and we're trying to onboard another editor who is kind of kind of be doing a hybrid of Peter and Powell, and the hopes is to hire him full time. I've been transparent with him about this as well. Yeah. So we're gonna start on contract and then hopefully move him to full time and sort of alleviate all the editing, like the big portion of video editing off my plate, to do more motif business things. But yeah, so we were pretty it's kind of 5052, in two in house, two out of house, yeah. But they're, they're all very much a part of the team, yeah? So it sounds like, it sounds like one, one of them interfaces directly with client then, and the others are kind of funneled through you or or someone else, yeah, through me. And Paul, yeah, Powell doesn't interface with the clients at all. And Peter, yeah, he's he's interfacing with one client just because, like I said, he's a super fan, so I just thought, hey, I'll bring you into the fold. And I don't think he necessarily wants to interface with the client. Maybe he does, but there's not a lot to be done there. It's, it's enough for me to handle, right, right? You know, people might be wondering. Why we, why we go contractors and not go, just hire, hire somebody. Yeah, you know, I think, I think if you, if you're a business owner, business leader of some kind, listening, you might be curious about that. In fact, you might have your own insights as to why we might do that. And if you're just getting started, or you, you have a creative agency of some kind, and you're considering hiring versus contractors. You know, there are, there are, there are a number of reasons why you might go one way or the other. You know, we have w2 I call them w2 employees, which, in my mind, just means that they're actual in terms of, like, the state of Massachusetts, they're considered employees, and they, you know, we give them a w2 at the end of the year, on my end, those tend to be our leadership positions. The sort of the the workload, the a 40 hour a weekend. Can the workload? Can sustain 40 hours a week, right? It's consistent. It's, you know, we have, might have a team member that you know, for example, you've met, Ben. Ben is he's, he's handling accounts directly. He speaks to a lot of our accounts that I don't, I don't I don't interface with it all anymore, similar to what you mentioned about like you, you might be involved for the first month, couple of months, and then you kind of fade to the back. We have that same situation. And Ben, Ben's been doing for five years now, and you know, and then when we look at these are my, these are my hiring decisions. So, you know, when it comes to the contractor side of things, it generally tends to be a one off or a niche specialty service that we just don't offer in house. The work doesn't sustain a 40 hour a week person, or even a part like 25 hours a week person. These are projects. We are we're in the midst of, we have one of our contractors, he is out of Pakistan, working with, directly with a client as we speak, to integrate an API for their for their shipping. They're moving from one vendor to ship station, and it's a complicated integration process. Well, that might take 25 hours total for us to complete this API integration, but then I don't have work for him after that, right? So it wouldn't make sense to in my mind, that is the definition of contract work. And you know, we have other we have another developer also over in the east, and he's working on some software that we're developing. He's also working on one very particular web application that we're building. And again, like it's more work than the other contractor. But still, it's it's not, it's not enough to sustain full employment. And besides, these contractors, we need to think and from their perspective as well, like, maybe they don't want to work with just one company. They prefer to have multiple companies that were they're receiving work from the work becomes dynamic and interesting, and it's it things are changing for them, and they're not there's, there's when you, when you get into our world, this creative professionals world, you're not dealing with the same mindset of person that is accustomed to working a nine to five job. It tends to be a different type of person that that that demands more of a freedom. And through the freedom comes their creativity, right? So if they were to say, No, you're working 40 hours just on this one project, they would have, most likely, they would just eventually implode out of that being in that container. So these are some of the decisions that go into my you know, how I how I draw that distinction between a employee and a contractor, and it works well for us. I think we have to be careful in some states where they're a little bit more, take a hard line on what a contractor is, you know, because let's face it, if you have stateside contractors, and you're paying them as a contractor, not paying them as employee, you're avoiding, yeah, you're avoiding tax. You're avoiding all those payroll taxes. And I, you know, I know, I know. I know there's some large companies out there that do that, and, you know, power to them, but, but yeah, just, just be aware. You know, my point with that is, like there are some regulations when it comes to Massachusetts. Massachusetts is pretty strict about that. Yeah, yeah. When I I referenced the corporate job I had, I. Um, they reached back out after I went on my own to do some, like, contract work. And it's they were very clear in their emails, via, like, from a legal perspective, like, Hey, we're not hiring you to do the job you did while you were fully employed. Yeah, we're hiring you to do this one thing. So, like, even if someone went on vacation, and they're like, Hey, you want to come in for two weeks while so and so's gone, and just, you know, you know, you know where the light switch is, like, you know where everything is that's like, no bueno. Like, I cannot be coming in to do, yeah? Well, at least, at least this was the precaution they took. Yeah, I don't know if you have to be that stringent, but that's how it was kind of explained to me, yeah, like you're coming in to do these very specific things, and that's it. You're not, you're not being asked to do what you did when you were an employee here. Yeah, and I think that's that's probably a good take on it. The biggest thing is, I, like you alluded to it, like Peter is his own, does his own thing, like he's his own, he's his own company, like he does his own thing, yeah, yeah. I don't think he has any interest in me. I think I know he doesn't have any interest in being a full time employee for me, unless I drop some ungodly amount of money in his lap, which is not going to happen. But yeah, he has, like he's got a good thing going. I don't even think technically, the work we do would qualify for a full time position either. Maybe it's 40 hours a month, right? Not 40 hours a week. And definitely the same goes for, you know, the other contractors we work with, right? Yeah, I think understanding that and embracing it, because if you and I well, but that being said, I do, I do. I do. Admit, I can see to the point to the fact that what I mentioned earlier about we, we hold them to the same standards in terms of, like, company messaging, how we how we handle situations company wide, applies to them as well. That's, that's the to the extent that I go in trying to put them in some sort of container, and that's just to maintain consistency in like, quality of work and communication and meeting that deadlines and called, you know, quality of work and things like that. So but beyond that, yeah, if you try to, they'll straight up ignore me. If I try to get to micromanage, to controlling in their schedule, they'll just get back to me when they can, right? And that is a pro and a con. I will say to contractors, because, in my experience, because with an employee, if I if I ask something, or if I ping them on, I am get back to me quick, right? With a contractor, I may not hear back for a day or two when they can get to it, right? And so that's that leash. Yeah, it's a long leash for the contractor, and I think it's case by case on how you want to handle that, but you're not going to control the part, like what you said, the whole part of the reason why people do contract work is because they want the freedom and they want the autonomy to to kind of control their schedule, and so the minute they feel that you're starting to step on those those toes and to try to mold them in a different way, you could see, you may not it's case by case, but you could see a decrease in communication or enthusiasm. You might even see it spread into the quality of work or meeting deadlines or milestones or whatever, and then then the writing is sort of on the wall. You have to change, or you're going to have to find a new contractor eventually. So yeah, I guess my message there is just like you have to be willing to be in flow with your contractors, for sure? Yeah, I'm very fortunate that you know, the guys I work with are all very responsive. You know, Peter, if you're listening, shout out. He's like, you know, we are actually kind of on a similar morning schedule. We're both up early in the morning, so, like, we'll call each other at seven, like, if there's a question about something, and you know he's, he's probably as close as you can get to someone who is invested in my company, as much as, like, an employee, right? So I definitely am lucky in that, in that sense. Yeah, that's for all the all the people that work with us. But, yeah, that is definitely, there's definitely been contractors we work with, like you said, like they Hey, they're out on a shoot with someone else, and they're not going to get back to you. You message them on Wednesday, they might not get back to you till Friday or the night. Monday, right, right? That's just the nature of it. And one time where something, where I there, I think there's a line between subbing something out and then referring it out, right? When, when things get into web development, branding, like logo design, more marketing stuff, like, you do it, like, that's when I'm gonna refer, right? That's when I'm gonna throw out the referral. Like, oh, you know, we don't do that in house. We don't manage it, you know, here's Eric, or, you know, whoever. Like, yeah, it's, that's not, that's where I kind of draw the line. Like, if someone was looking for a full blown animation, yeah, we could find somebody. I can do a little animation, but when it gets to a certain extent, I would definitely sub that out. Yeah, it's definitely a different animal. But yeah, that's kind of where I draw the line, where it's like when it gets outside of the visual medium, outside of maybe graphic design, but like when it's outside a video photo, that's when I start thinking like, all right, this is more of a referral than us managing a project we don't necessarily fully understand, right? Right? Do you ever stay involved? I know you just mentioned, you'll just outright refer it. But if we were doing the media like or like heavily invested in the video, and, you know, they want a website that's gonna have a lot of video, yeah, sure, we definitely, because that's, that's potential revenue, you know, prior to, prior to our discussion on camera today, I mentioned how I might have a opportunity for you with with someone that we both know, mutual contact. That's a good example. Like, you know, I could just outright refer you for that gig, yeah, or I could present it to the client as I could stay in the middle and up charge your work, right, right, and the client ultimately doesn't know the difference. But it's a it's a way to generate a little bit of extra revenue for the management to sort of the oversight the shoot list, like that type of stuff, to staying involved for that is that something that you ever do from a like to generate extra revenue, I think I would be interested in it for like, the right client, like, if they wanted something like that. But I just think at some point it's maybe not worth the up charge like when you're taking on the responsibility of being the the point person as something that's outside of your wheelhouse, right? You know, I mean, like it, there's a, there's a system weighing that has to be done totally but yeah, I definitely would be, I'd be open to staying in the mix, but it just have to be clear roles of who's doing what, yeah, that's, yeah, yeah. Because I think we touched over the over the course. I think, I think this is our 14th episode, 13th, 14th or 15th. 14th, 15th episode. You know, we've, we've, kind of, we kind of ebb and flow with revenue ideas for for those other pros that are listening, and that's that sometimes a hidden, hidden one. I there's, there's a couple, in fact, kind of funny that we're we landed on this topic because I see there being multiple ways to handle that. The first being, yeah, this is the outright. I have a guy who does video. His name's Doug. I'm gonna give you his info. I recommend you work with him, and I'm done, right? Just come out of the equation. The other side of it is, I've located, you know, we're gonna offer you this photography service. Here's the package. Your fee is put in there, and then we up charge that by whatever percentage, and then we generate a little bit of revenue for staying involved. Another version of that is incentivized referrals, meaning, if I came to you prior and say, Hey, Doug, you know, if you ever have anyone that needs a website in the network, in your network, you know, if you, if you toss that over to me, I'll give you 5% of the 5% of the revenue of that project, right? That's a we have some of those arrangements. And then finally, the one that I want to steer everybody away from. Do not go near a situation like this at all, and I can tell you from experience, and that is, I don't, there's probably an official term for it, but what happens is, let's say, let's say Doug, you refer me to someone who buys marketing services. And let's say. The we, we reached a deal with this, with this client that you referred to us, that they're gonna, they're gonna pay us $1,000 a month, 12 grand over the course of 12 months, and you stay involved at five, seven, 10% every month in perpetuity. Oh, I learned the hard way. You do not want to get into that situation. We're now on year four five, of just paying this third party every single month. She just does nothing and just collects. And it is brilliant on the end of the person that's receiving because if you you 10 or 10, 1215, of these talk about passive income, like you literally do nothing, but you have to remember to invoice. That's the only thing you need to do. So a maybe that's an idea that you want to impose on someone else, or, you know, be to stay away from it. It's not worth it. It's not worth it. We're paying, we're paying this person, I don't know, something like 20, almost 24 $2,500 a year, right? Yeah. So that's so yeah, when it comes to referrals and contractors and working arrangements and trying to find revenue in little, little pockets of revenue here and there, there are ways of doing that when it comes to, like, subbing out your your work to others. But just keep in mind, like, what in the moment, I was like, Yeah, well, yeah, no problem. We'll sign that. Like, we'll do this arrangement. We want all this new work that you're gonna open up for us. It's so easy to get excited and lost in that little honeymoon phase of new work, and you lose sight of, like, now I'm dealing with this, this monthly invoice that just will just never go away unless we fire that client. That's pretty Yeah, that's pretty sticky, yeah. So hopefully, hopefully someone listening, you know, find some value. And in my mistake, yeah, I've never been big on the like, if I, if I give you this client, Eric, give me, you know, 500 bucks or whatever, 5% kickback or whatever. Yeah, I'm not a big believer in that. Even if I hand you a million dollar website, like I, the relationship between you and I is more important, because you're gonna remember I gave you a million dollar website, yeah. And if I, if you gave me that 5% you're like, Well, you know, it's kind of like, you'll always remember there's this like, wall of money between, like, if I want to interact with him, it's 5% right where I probably, if I, in this hypothetical scenario, I have not given you a million dollar website, but like, I think you'd give me 10x that 5% in return to work, like, you know, I mean, like, I don't, I'm not, personally, I'm not big in the that, yeah, you know, yeah, paying for referral thing. But I could, like, you said, it could certainly be a big revenue maker. I think, I think situational, yeah, sure, you know, I think it works for some. We're also looking at it through the lens of the work that we do. And maybe there's other lenses that that, you know, I'm blind to, but, but, yeah, for my experience, I think there is a real energy involved with just giving somebody work, just giving them work, it's you will get that back. It may not be from the person you gave the work to, but you'll get that back, and usually double or more what you've given out right givers gained, I think, is what BNI calls it. But there's also sort of these metaphysical laws that talk talk to this principle as well. So So sure, yeah, taking, taking a $500 kickback for a referred project. It's great you get a little kid, you get a little bit of cash flow, but I would rather receive a$5,000 referral from someone else down the road because I, I gave a referral to you, unattached, just here, you know, from the from a good intention, sure, and yeah, nothing wrong with getting a percent or, yeah, fee or whatever, Right? That's not what I'm saying. Just personally, I don't want to be in charge of it or think about it, so this, this just for everybody's information. This is not an ad for BNI. Maybe we should, we should. We've been talking about this a lot. We should invoice them for the last two episodes, right? But, and. This kind of comes to a close here. Final thoughts, big takeaways, yeah, I think, I think this conversation combined with the very previous conversation that where we dealt with having honest conversations with clients about their budget, and also having the courage to follow up and ask for the money when invoices go unpaid. I think that's a good segue into this one, because the are when you're when you're hiring subcontractors to be an extension of your business. You also need to keep in mind that you are now on the hook for paying them in a timely way, right? And if not, you risk, you, you just risk this aloofness that could come about where, if they don't feel or they can trust the fact that they're gonna, you're gonna pay them on time, or at all, you know you you you could see, you could see, I guess, a lowered level of of engagement, quality of work, and the client will ultimately feel that. So I think, I think just how we handle our contractors as being essentially an extension of our our day to day team is is an important thing for others to consider. And you know, regardless of the label we have on them, they still represent you and they represent your brand, right? So, and they're doing work that that's really important for the success of your business, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think it's it's good to also be transparent, like, if we took on a shoot and Paul was sick or something, he can't make it, and I reach out to somebody that I'm familiar with. They're like, Hey, can you help me with this shoot? I would communicate such to the client beforehand. Like, hey, my director of photography sick. I can, we can work with so and so who I've worked with on a number of projects. He's his own entity. Or we can reschedule. Like, what do you want to do? Yeah, given on what it is. You know, if it's something that's like, hey, this thing is happening on this day, and it's not going to happen again, and I think I know the answer to it, but like, and sometimes I'll, you know, I'll step in as well and pull up, put on the put on the camera. But I think that just being transparent with it as well. I don't think you have to, like, disclose, like, everything, like you said, as long as the quality is to your standard and all that, it doesn't make a difference. Yeah. I think it's only when it's like something like, I just said, like, where it's going to be. Chances are client facing, like a shoot. There's more to me than you, yeah, but like, just communicating that, like, hey, not the normal team, you know, whatever has come up, or if I this just came up, a shoot kept getting delayed because of weather, and I was going to be there originally to sort of direct, and it kept getting delayed and delayed and delayed until I was going on a trip, and I'm like, Hey, I'm not going to be there, Paul. Can be there? Is that all good? No, yeah, that's fine. So, like, I was just transparent about it, right, right? And usually it's, everything's good, and you find a solution. It's when you don't communicate, right? Like, I just don't show up, like, well, where's Doug? So it boils it all boils down to communication. We usually circle back to in every episode, yeah, communication, yep. And just the quick tack on to that point, which would be when, when we're selling our services. Someone is we're really hung up maybe on who's going to deliver that right for the client. They hired the company to deliver a service, and so we could be like, Oh, no, I was intention. I was intending for this person to be on the shoot, or this person to take the, you know, the Impact call with the client or whatever, but they just want the information and or they want the the work to be done, and they're trusting the company, yeah? And I think that's an important distinction, too, for sure. For sure, yeah, like, I said, that's more applies to like, video and like, yeah, what you're doing, as long as it's getting done right to a high level. Nobody gives a Yeah, you know what? Well, this question to the viewer is common, but you and I, we actually just recorded around for ideas back to back. There hasn't been a lot of time for you, it's been a week, but for us, it's. Been, you know, 40 minutes, yeah, let's breach it out of recent Is there anything? A book recommendation, movie content, something that's been impactful to you? Yeah, I've been, I've been studying and integrating a lot of the wisdom from some ancient Indian sort of what they call science of life. The big word, the big title for is called Ayurveda, and it means science of life in Sanskrit and fascinating stuff. I think, if anybody is listening to this that has any sort of like ailment that they're tired of taking a lot of medication for, and they're looking for alternative ways to treat themselves or their loved ones, I would say, check out Ayurveda. Ayurveda. It's more pervasive in Western culture than you may realize. Some of the old like my mom used to have me put my head over a bowl with steam when I was congested. Well, that's an example of an Ayurveda way of handling sinus infections or whatever, right? So it's fascinating, but it stretches from yoga principles all the way through meditation and diet and mindset, and it's just like a constant comprehensive science of life as they call it. And so I would encourage anyone that's interested in that type of thing to check it out. Wow. Okay, I'm intrigued. Yeah, I don't know if I have anything, it'll hold a candle to that. I had to reach deep today because we had a lot of these podcasts in a row here. I know the content well. Let me see here. Let me think of a impactful film. For me, I usually resort back to films. Here's a good one. This film I had no idea about until I went to college. College is very interesting, and I'm not this very quick side note, like, I've been thinking about college and what, like, what it means now to people, and kind of along the lines where you're talking about here, like, Is college worth the education you get, right, or The value all that? And I've realized I didn't learn a lot of I learned technical stuff in college about film, video production. A lot of what I've learned was after college, before college. I really, for me, college is more about growing, like emotionally professionally, more of like a holistic education, right? That's the way I kind of look at it now, and I don't know if that's that's probably not the case for everybody. Like, if you're going to be an engineer, you need to go to school to learn about being an engineer, where the creative feels a little different. Anyway, film school also opened me up to a whole world of films and individuals I never would have met if I sort of stayed in my little silo in Maine. Yep, one of those films is City of God, which takes place in Brazil, and it's in Portuguese. Really good film. I once upon a time, it was on Netflix. I think you'd have to rent it on demand, on prime or something. Now, yeah, but really good film, city of God's. City of God, God. City of God, very impactful on me as a videographer and how like develop my style and that sort of thing. Cool, yeah, save God, I'll check that out. Yeah. So I'm Doug Duvall. I co own motif media. We do high end video production and podcast production here in Boston, in the greater Boston area. Yeah, I'm Eric wing. I own Derby digital based in Cambridge, and we're technology company specialized in web design, web development, marketing services and AI consulting and speaking, and we serve as clients all around the all around the country, yeah, well, we'll see you guys. Oh, creative context.net. Creative context underscore on Instagram and creative context podcast on YouTube. I. Realize a couple episodes ago I just said creative context is context podcast. I think we are the only thing that shows up because the other channel hasn't posted anything. So, yeah, I think we will still show up, but we will see you next week, all right, until next time you and Sure.