Healing Loudly: Turning Your Mess into Your Message with Jill McMahon

In this raw episode of Let’s Get Naked, host Anne Karber and therapist Jill McMahon dive into the quiet self-betrayals that happen when we ignore the body’s internal “no.” From numbing and survival mode to the “good girl/good boy” conditioning that confuses compliance with consent, this conversation unpacks how we lose ourselves—and how to come back. Anne and Jill also confront the real-world stakes of sexual trauma, the necessity of uncomfortable conversations with kids, and the outsized impact of social media on the mental health of young people.

What You’ll Learn:

• How to recognize the body’s signals and stop overriding your intuition
• Why numbing seems to work—until it doesn’t—and how to feel safely
• The difference between consent and compliance and why it matters
• Practical ways to lead hard, age-appropriate conversations with kids
• How social media and screen time shape young brains and self-worth
• Why running toward discomfort accelerates healing and self-trust
• How inner child work helps reframe guilt and reclaim your voice

If you’re ready to heal at full volume—and model that courage for the people you love—this episode will meet you where you are and invite you to take the next brave step.

#LetsGetNaked #SelfBetrayal #TraumaHealing #ListenToYourBody #Parenting

Jill is licensed professional counselor, focusing her work on trauma and grief. She has spent 20 years of her career specializing in suicide loss and bereavement. Jill has supported friends and family members in the first hours, and into the years that follow, after the loss of a loved one to suicide.

Jill can be found educating and training throughout her community, nation-wide, as well as being honored to speak internationally. She has been featured on several podcasts, news segments, 

co-authored a series of books, as well as being consulted for several other publications.

Most recently Jill is a best-selling author, releasing her book Bulletproof: Healing After Gun Violence and Trauma, a Guide for Survivors, Caregivers and Clinicians, in fall of 2024. Her wish is that this book will become a vital tool of hope for Survivors. Additionally, its Jills desire that it will be used as a road map for counseling students everywhere, facilitating the best client care for gun violence survivors.

https://jillmcmahoncounseling.com

https://www.instagram.com/grievewithjill/

https://www.linkedin.com/in/jill-mcmahon-4365286/

This podcast dives deep into real, raw topics—think vulnerability, triggers, and childhood trauma. But just so we're super clear: I’m not a licensed therapist, mental health professional, or anything close. I’m just a human sharing stories, lessons, and life hacks based on personal experience and a whole lot of curiosity.

So, while you might find some golden nuggets here, this is not therapy and should never replace professional mental health care. If you or someone you love is going through it, please—seriously—reach out to a licensed therapist or healthcare provider. You deserve the real deal.

Need Help Now?
Here are a few amazing resources:

·         988 Suicide & Crisis Lifeline (U.S.): Call or text 988
·         NAMI HelpLine: 1-800-950-NAMI (6264) or nami.org/help
·         Therapy Directory: psychologytoday.com
·         Crisis Text Line: Text HOME to 741741 

The opinions expressed on this show are ours and ours alone—no official organizations are responsible for what we say (or how much we overshare).

This show is proudly produced at PS Studios — learn more https://www.psstudios.co

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:00

Hey everyone, I'm Anne. Welcome to the Let's Get Naked podcast, where we dive deep into vulnerability. In this space, we'll explore what triggers us, uncover the patterns holding us back, and take charge of our own growth. If you're ready to dig in, be vulnerable, and face the tough stuff, then buckle up. It's time to get naked. Today, we're talking about the quiet kind of savage that's killing you inch by inch. It's not what someone else does to you, it's what you let happen after your body already said no. That moment when your stomach drops, your chest tightens, your intuition is damn near screaming, and you override it. You smile, you stay, you go along. Why? Because you don't want to be awkward, you don't want to hurt someone's feelings, you don't want to make a scene. So instead, you abandon yourself. We've been trained to be so damn agreeable that we will betray our own body just to keep the peace. You will keep the peace out there while creating a full-blown war in here. And then you wonder why you feel disconnected, resentful, numb. It's because every time you ignore that internal no, you teach yourself that your voice doesn't matter, that your body doesn't get a vote, that other people's comfort comes before your safety. And you know what? We're not dying that, excuse me, we're not doing that anymore. Your body is not confused, your intuition is not dramatic. That hesitation, that tension, that pull, that's data, that's truth. And if you keep overriding it, don't be surprised when you don't recognize yourself anymore. Because the fastest way to lose yourself is to keep choosing everyone else over your own damn knowing. Let's get into it. Today I'm stripping it all off again with my friend Jill McMahon.

SPEAKER_02 2:26

Hi.

SPEAKER_03 2:26

Hi, how are you doing?

SPEAKER_02 2:28

Wow, what a topic today, girl.

SPEAKER_03 2:29

Yeah, yeah. Thank you for being uh willing to come have this conversation with me. So, for those uh watching and listening, I invited Jill to have breakfast with me a couple weeks ago. And I said, Jill, I want to discuss this topic um with someone, and it's really heavy. And she agreed almost immediately and said, let's not talk about it, let's just talk about it on the couch. And I said, you know what? I respect the hell out of that. And so we haven't had much conversation about this, uh, other than just to share with her that this is where I was going today. And um, you know, and we're gonna get into it.

SPEAKER_02 3:06

I'm not surprised that you take the hot the hard topics. Yeah, and I love that about you. That's what it's important about your platforms right now.

SPEAKER_03 3:12

I think so too. I think so too. Um, so the self-betrayal thing has been coming up for me in um in lots of stuff that I have done with therapy over the years, and I never had terminology for it. And as I have continued to explore more and more about kind of how I'm feeling, what those things felt like. You know, for me, I spent a lot of years numbing and pushing stuff down. Um, as I've gone down my journey, these things come up. Like I didn't have a memory for a long time. I would uh Cameron was always always joking about like my five-year dump, he would call it, because I only could remember back about five years. And as I started pulling on that uh proverbial yarn that was hanging off the sweater and unraveling who Anne is and what all went into there, all of these things come up all the time. Certain things make me feel a certain type of way and stuff comes up. Other things make me feel a memory about something or a smell, and a memory will come back. And not only do I get to remember it here, but I get to feel it here because I never felt it here when it was happening. I just pushed it down. I'm strong, I can get through this. When you're in constant survival mode, you don't have time to process or to feel the feels of anything, especially when you think they're messy and you're not willing to do that. So that self-betrayal for me is so layered and something that I haven't even really unpacked anywhere. So thank you for being here.

SPEAKER_02 4:38

Oh, yay! I know I feel very trusted right now. Yeah, I feel I feel a little chosen. Yeah. I feel trusted and I'm honored. So thank you for that. Yeah. Can I comment on something that you just said? Please do. You said when, so it's not uncommon for adults to have traumatic moments or years in their lives that are completely blacked out. Um, as a therapist, I've had many a client come into my office, I want to say 45 to 65 years old, and they will say, for some reason I can't remember ages five to eleven. It's completely dark, it's black, it doesn't make sense to me. It's your brain's way of protecting you. But to come back to what you just said, you said, you know, so now as I'm pulling that proverbial yarn and it's all kind of unraveling, because you are healthy enough and safe enough to do that. You said, I get to feel it here, and I get to feel it here in my body. And that stood out to me, Ann, because most people would have said, I have to feel it here. I don't have a choice, I can't push it away. It just happens to me. That is not what you just said, girl. That's not what I feel. Right. I get to feel it and I get to feel it. And that's um tells me a lot about where you are as a healed woman, that you realize that feeling it is really an important way of regaining control. You're not trying to push it down anymore, girl. And I don't even know what you're about to tell me. I have no idea what she's about to tell me. That in and of itself, though, is such a feat. And so I just wanted to acknowledge it. You're not pushing it down. Don't push it down.

SPEAKER_03 6:20

Please don't push it down. I I thank you for saying that. And I believe that to my core that I have an incredible story and I'm honored to unpack it every time it comes up. I have figured out uh how to operate within these four walls of everything that I have and feeling into the things that happened to younger versions of me and the stuff that I did just to get through it. And um I use my mess as my message. It's what has me here, you know. Uh, and I've got a lot, there's a lot of stuff in there, not in there anymore, I would say. Like I've spent uh almost a decade working on myself. So it has gotten me to this place where I am honored when things come up. But I did have that. I had where my childhood home from when I was born to when I was nine, I don't remember.

SPEAKER_01 7:11

Wow.

SPEAKER_03 7:12

Uh, I had where most of uh in you know, when I moved to when I was nine to when I moved out of my parents' house when I was 16, I didn't remember there either. And as I have started to not push things down and allow things to come up, it almost feels like um the screen just keeps kind of opening more and more and things just come up and it's never at convenient times. Oh, of course not. And that's okay because I've I have made a commitment to myself that I know how much better I feel as I process these things. And so if something triggers something, if something makes me feel a certain type of way, if I feel like I need to cry, uh, I just allow that to happen because my body wants that shit out, and I know that. And the more that I let it out, it just feels like uh a gift to me.

SPEAKER_02 8:01

That is self-love, my dear. Yeah, that's ultimately what all of that is about. You've worked the last decade to love yourself enough to allow this.

SPEAKER_03 8:10

I believe that. Yeah, I believe that. And I think it's really powerful work because it's like I spent so much time trying to focus on other people. And then I realized when I do it in here, it all just falls into place in such a beautiful way. So now that I know that, it's like I literally feel like I figured out the cheat codes in life, which is what has me on this platform doing the things that I'm doing, because I just think we need more people that are willing to heal at full volume.

SPEAKER_01 8:37

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 8:37

Uh, so that other people can look and say, God, that's messy. And also I see the relief. I see, you know, all of the good that comes from it, because the less gunk that I'm carrying around, the less invisible weight that I'm carrying around, um, the better that I get to be for myself and my tribe.

SPEAKER_02 8:54

Um, well, and you're setting a model for your peers, right? So, God, that's messy, but I still love her. She's still cool. I still want to hang out with her. Oh, holy shit, I'm messy too. So if I deal with my mess, people might still love me. They're not gonna think that I'm a different version of Jill. They're not gonna think that I'm ugly. They're right, like people can still love me and value me, even though I'm messy. You're setting that example. So I I love it.

SPEAKER_03 9:20

It's it's powerful, it's powerful work. You know, for me, it's like I have I have two daughters and a son that um that motivate me to sit on this couch and do this because I have healed in front of them at full volume, which is why I have such great relationships with them and continue to work through stuff with them because that was really messy too. The old version of Ann was the unhealed version, you know, and I don't think that you get to where I am healed now, but I will definitely say I'm a lot closer now than I, you know, um, with all of the work that I've done. But that's what motivates me to do this, right? Or, or my nieces and my nephew, and and you know, everything that goes into that. Like that's really important stuff to me to be able to show them and to model that behavior for them because I don't want them to ever feel like they need to push their stuff down. You know, we're meant to talk about things, we're meant to feel things. It wasn't modeled for us, you know, which which is just part of the story, but um also not an excuse of why we don't agreed, you know, and so I think a lot of people uh bleed on people that didn't cut them and then use the excuse of, well, that's just what happened to me. And it's like I get it, but we're adults, agreed, and we have nothing but resources, uh, and I won't come from this place of excuses in my life.

SPEAKER_02 10:35

Yeah, we are far more evolved.

SPEAKER_03 10:37

We are, and so to be able to, I think it just takes an aha moment for someone to really go, I'm sick and tired of being sick and tired, and I'm willing to do the work. Because when you do the work, when you agree with yourself to do that work and you make that commitment to yourself, um, you have to go all in. You have to go all in because it's not a you know, one foot in, one foot out. Or if you try to do it that way, it's not really you're not getting everything. People try it that way. I guess, I guess, I guess maybe I'm out of touch with with things for that because I'm an I'm a cannonballer, right?

SPEAKER_02 11:06

I wouldn't you're an all-in-one. I'm an all-in for clarifying you're an all-in girl, right? I'd rather somebody have one foot in and one foot out than both feet out. Yeah. But at the same time, it just prolongs the journey if you don't cannonball all in.

SPEAKER_03 11:21

Yeah, yeah. You know, there's that whole, you know, the buffalo analogy about, you know, do you know this? Okay, so there's this uh this this analogy or whatever about the buffalo, and it's talking about, you know, a storm is coming and the cows in the herd will run away from the storm. And what ends up happening is in that they're in the storm longer, um, and the buffalo runs towards the storm. And and by doing that, he gets to the the clear skies faster and the green grass and the cool air and like all of these things. And so in my life, I've just I'm the buffalo, right? And I encourage other people to do that too, because it's like you can go ahead and pussyfoot around stuff all you want, but there's no quality of life in just continuing to stuff things down and numb on top of it. We've figured things out, we understand uh the physics and the science and all of the different things that go into it. It's like then do something about it instead of just being bullheaded and saying, I'm fine, it's fine, everything's fine. I spent decades of my life doing that. And now I'm, you know, eight, nine, ten years into this journey. And the more I do, the better my life gets. And it's that you can't argue with that.

SPEAKER_02 12:27

It's easier to keep going down that road when you are seeing the benefits, right? When you are feeling the benefits. And by the way, that was such a country girl analogy.

SPEAKER_03 12:36

I know. I'm from South Dakota, y'all. I don't know the buffalo in the storm.

SPEAKER_02 12:41

I'm like, oh, country girl analogy.

SPEAKER_03 12:43

I loved it. I said something the other day about shitting in tall cotton, and my bestie goes, I know, my best bestie goes, the fuck does that mean? I'm like, do people not know what I'm talking about? She's like, no. And so, yeah, apparently there's a lot of things that I say that are like outrageous. So I do it anyways. Yeah. Yeah. So the self-betrayal thing for me, it it keeps bringing things up because I feel like I I personally was raised in uh in organized religion, Catholicism for the first um probably 10, 12 years, and then my folks switched to a brand of Christianity that I uh don't agree with. Also, that's their choice. Living at home, it was if you live under our house, you live under our rules. And shit got weird. And so I just that was not for me. I rebelled against that. It literally felt um against every molecule of my being like the wrong thing. You know, I was the one that was like, nobody else can see that the emperor's not wearing any clothes, you know. So for me, I don't I don't subscribe to organized religion. I think everyone can do whatever they want. I stay very much in my lane about that, but I am very opinionated because I realize the damage that is done in that. Uh, raising children to be the good girl and the good boy is very dangerous. And what ends up happening, or what has ended up happening in my story, is um a lot of sexual trauma. A lot of sexual trauma and a lot of trauma where I kept my mouth shut. Uh to be the good girl, to be the good girl, to keep the peace, to make certain that everybody was comfortable. And inside, when your body is going, make this stop, make this stop, make this stop, and you override that, to me, that feels like death. You do you literally disassociate with your body, and I understand the concept of all of that. Good way to put it, and um that's hard damage to come back from, right? And so it's like parents that think that they're raising their children in this right way understand that this is what that looks like of raising the good girl and the good boy to not speak up, is then we don't speak up, not only when it happens in the instances where it did, but also after the fact. Because that's not something that my parents even knew about. I ended up having to have a conversation with them before I released the first episode of this podcast, which was um a year and a half ago in the first episode with I came out swinging and talking about sexual abuse as a child and all of the things, yes. And I went and talked to my son, and I went and talked to my daughters, and I went and talked to my folks, and I just said, there's oh my god, my voice is gonna shake when I say it, because having that conversation with your dad is rough. Right. You know, of dad, there's a lot of stuff, and you don't have to listen. I don't want anybody to do anything they don't necessarily want to, but I say things in in this that are hard to hear because all of the things that happened, you can imagine every fucked up thing that's happened, and the only thing that hasn't happened to me is um like a violent rape. Uh, literally everything else. I I can I can go down the list, yep, yep, yep, yep. Stuff that I perpetuated myself because as a teenager, then I put myself into dangerous situations and had a very unhealthy relationship with alcohol because that numbing felt so good to me. It felt like coming home, right? Because I didn't have to think about all of those things that started happening when I was seven years old. Well, because home didn't feel safe to you, right?

SPEAKER_02 16:02

It didn't. And I'm not getting into family symptoms. I don't know any more of the story, but for many different reasons. Yes, it numbed. Yeah. Yes, um, it put tragedy and trauma in the back, it put euphoria in the front. And if home wasn't safe, you needed to create your own home, girl.

SPEAKER_03 16:21

Yeah, yeah, right. And so that's exactly what I did with with alcohol and with um you know do you think you started numbing? Uh 13. I had a really uh robust relationship with alcohol and and and drugs when I was younger. Um and just don't you don't need to feel any of it. You just push it on and down, right? Which is why then you go back and you try to remember that. And it's like, why can't I remember my childhood home? Like I can't remember any of it. I went back there uh several years ago, maybe 10 years ago, and I went in and I went down to the basement where my bedroom was. And it was just like, get the fuck out of here. Like my body, I couldn't. I literally just get the fuck out of here. That's screaming. I had to leave. I couldn't even stay in there. As a grown-ass woman in her 40s, I'm like, get out now.

SPEAKER_02 17:16

I am never ever surprised about how loud and vocal the body is.

SPEAKER_03 17:24

Oh, it's in even when I was talking to you, my body is just literally ding ding-ding. I have energy intention. Yes, I well, it's just I have my body is lit up with energy right now as I was talking to you. Yeah, exactly. It's just releasing stuff because it's I'm not pushing it down. No, I'm not going to pretend like stuff didn't happen. I also don't want you to be numb to it.

SPEAKER_02 17:41

So there's there's there's a finite detail that I think is important to kind of delineate and explain. You know, um, having explosive feelings in your body or tingling or sensations, and not crying or screaming or yelling across the couch at me right now does not mean you're pushing it down. It means I feel it, I acknowledge it. I'm not going to ignore it. I know it's there. Hi, I know you're there, I feel you, and now I understand where you're coming from. I know why you're here, and I'm gonna take care of you. 100%. Right? So that's different.

SPEAKER_00 18:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:18

And, you know, I think I loved your intro so much, girl, because I think that it brings to the forefront the value of listening to our bodies. That's what stood out of your intro to me was when your body is screaming no, but your brain is overriding it, we need to stop doing that. Yeah, listen to your body. But our culture does not support that. Right, right. And this isn't our parents' generation, this is the many generations before that are pull yourself up by your bootstraps. May I find the man that came up with that term? Yeah. Right? I get it, I get tenacity, I get push, I get drive. You know, you and I both do on this couch. That is one of probably the characteristics that unite us. However, that mentality that we have told young boys in particular from the beginning of time is only killing their character, their true sense of self. It's don't listen to the body. The body's weak. Don't listen to the body. I need you to push through it. I need you to do it on anyway. You know, I know that your friends told you that, you know, this is what you should do, but your brain is telling you, probably not a good idea, but you want to socially fit in, you can do it, you can do it. Just deep breath, go slash the tires. Go slash the tires. It's fine. How bad do you want it? Do you want it? Those weren't the intentions of that phrase when that phrase was first born. But there are a hundred different ideations of that, Anne, and you know there are.

SPEAKER_01 19:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:55

Of don't listen to your brain. Sorry, of don't listen to your body. I want your brain to push through.

SPEAKER_03 20:02

And then the brain is all of the conditioning and the stuff, the programming where it's just like you're taught to do that. As men also, it's girls and boys too, but you know, don't be a pussy, rub some dirt on it, like whatever. And I look at this, this is why I had such a hard time when my son was playing football, and there's all these dads on the field and they're screaming and they're crazy and whatever. I'm like, you're a future therapy, Bill. Like, what are you doing? Like, what are you doing? But you can just see it. You know, once you kind of can start leveling up in life, you can just see patterns and things that happen. And to me, it's so comical because it's just like so.

SPEAKER_02 20:36

I think I think everybody knows that we're in Arizona, yes, right. So you just totally struck a nerve with me. Yeah. The two-a-days in pee-wee football from ages like eight to eighteen would bring alive the inner lioness inside of me. I mean, I was besides myself. It is July and August at 110 and 15 degrees in Arizona, and we're having kids practice twice a day to the point where they puke on the sidelines, and all the coaches are going like, Rite of passage, get back in there, get some Gatorade, get back in. Right. And so again, there are hundreds, if not thousands, of messages that we are sending, particularly to young boys, but to young girls as well. And when you were talking, I was thinking, okay, so what about young girls, right? To me, the messaging that I see in middle school and high school girls is messaging from society, messaging from culture, get his attention. Get his attention. You are not the your full worthy self until you get his attention. And so do what you gotta do to get his attention. Wear the shorts.

SPEAKER_03 21:51

Do we even call them shorts anymore? Because call me old fashioned, but wear the loincloth. Call me old fashioned, but I think a girl's uh short should be longer than her vagina. That's just where I come from, but apparently that's not a thing anymore. That's not the style anymore. Shorts should be shorter than your vagina.

SPEAKER_02 22:08

Um, I see a lot of ash cheeks when I'm at Safeway. I see a lot of ashes. A lot of ash cheeks as soon as I'm going to be able to do that.

SPEAKER_03 22:13

And I don't want to be, listen, I don't want to be the old lady who's like, oh my God. So please, girls, do whatever you want to. But do that because that makes you happy, not because you're getting the attention.

SPEAKER_02 22:21

Okay, so that's where I'm let's go back to that. Yeah. Right? And so it's just different messages of what we value. We value a strong boy that has control over his mind. I want you to do better. I want you to be better. I want you to be the captain of the team. I don't want you just to be a good teammate. I want you to set an example for everybody else. And for young girls, messaging is everywhere. Ann it's everywhere. It's generally not coming from mom because we're saying cover up, value yourself. But we're one out of a hundred messages. The other 99 are Instagram, their girlfriends, every single television and magazine commercial, you turn the page. It's tiny waist, boobs coming out, big lips, and there's always a hot guy that's turning his head to look at her as she walks by. It's not the mediocre guy. It's not the guy with the dad bod.

SPEAKER_00 23:23

Right.

SPEAKER_02 23:24

Right? And vice versa. We're sending those same images from very early on to young boys who don't then value the bookworm. Or the girl who's just, let's be honest, fucking nice. Like the girl who's just rad. The kind girl who has like well-rounded. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So we're sending these what we value messages out to our kids from day one. And that's what I think is ruling the mind and quieting the body.

SPEAKER_03 24:00

Well, I think that's where that self-betrayal comes in. I mean, it's just a breeding ground for that. Because, you know, whether it's whatever the conditioning is or whatever the messages that we're sending out to people or whatever, you're taking that and your body's going, that's not right, that's not right, that's not right. And your mind goes, Yes, it is, yes, it is, yes, it is, because you're getting your dopamine hits by looking at somebody that's, you know, exactly what you said, the skinny waist and big boobs and like all of this effort that goes into and the filters and the filters and the fifth, who how do you even how many likes of how many likes did I get from a bikini shot last week?

SPEAKER_02 24:29

I got 350, not me, right, ladies and gentlemen. Just the work clear there. Just the work clear. Jill and I are not posting bikini pics. Yeah. Um, but if you're 13, 14, 15 years old, younger than that, and younger than me, I got 325 likes last week. That shows me that is what people value. May I just say something that's very unpopular right now?

SPEAKER_03 24:51

I believe that allowing what if I said no? Okay, well, I'm gonna say it anyways. Uh I'd like to say, here's the name, my name on the show. I don't even know, it's not here. Uh, I believe that getting children hooked into social media at that young of an age is child abuse. And I'm happy to just say that at full volume. You go girl. Exactly. And also we have data. We have the data points, right? So much. You can go back and look and see when did shit when did we start shitting the bed? Let's just look at that from the standpoint of the comparison, the all of the things, the anxiety, the suicide rate, the whatever. They can literally go back and tag that to when people, more than 50% started having smartphones and everybody started plugging into social media. Exactly. And and and everybody started plugging into social media. Everyone says, Oh, we're doing that to stay connected. People have never been less connected in their entire lives. My I highly encourage people to stay the hell off of social media all the way, and also do not give that to your children. If you want to raise boys and girls that are confident, that are capable, that are all the things, they should never have social media until they're adult enough to make that decision for themselves. Now, is that unpopular? Sure, because they're going to come to you and they're going to say, Well, little Sally has social media and all of my friends have social media and they're going to try to bully their parents. And what I will tell you is, I don't get bullied in my own house, right? Yeah. I encourage other people, I encourage other people to do that. You're going to let your friends make the decision for what kind of children you raise because you're not strong enough to say, you know what, I get that, but I've done some research and I see that that's really terrible. So how about we get you a flip phone so that you can still communicate with people, right? You can still reach out. So in case of emergency, like all of the things, but you don't need all of those apps and those notifications that are going ping, ping, ping, ping, ping.

SPEAKER_02 26:36

So the number of young girls that actually will tell you today that they want a flip phone because they realize that they are deteriorating at the core. So I mean, I know we're getting off track a little bit, but I will say, I mean, I think it all coordinates, correlates somewhat um all of the data's there. The tide is actually turning. So is it? Go and cover it. Yes. And I and I'm actually, I'm actually um I'm on it because I watch this stuff because I firmly believe in everything that you just said. There's an amazing man, a professor from NYU, who came out with a book about 18 months ago, 18 months ago. It's called The Anxious Generation. For some reason, you never know the whose voice is gonna be the one where people stop to listen. This has gained everybody's attention. So now we have a lot of schools, actually in the United States, but in Europe and Australia for sure, that have stopped allowing cell phones in schools. It's because of this book. It's because of one book, and which that's that's what I'm saying. Like the power of one instrument can actually make quite a difference. And now we're doing more and more studies. Now people are starting to put a lot of money into research and study, and they're all showing the findings that you've just stated. It all changed in 2006 when smartphones, you know, came to life. But what I think is interesting in relationship to our topic today is that we are gonna have this whole generation. The tide is turning now. And so I think that the next generation of young mothers, I'm watching it in my personal life, they're not handing phones to their babies anymore in their car seats. They're not handing them phones at restaurants just to, you know, keep their attention so that they can have mommy time. Um, that's all shifting. There's always gonna be tablets, there's always gonna be laptops, all of those things. But we are gonna have this 20-year generation that is going to be, I'm gonna say forever depressed in some ways, differently. Their brains are just hardwired differently, right? It's hard to get your head around. So hard to get your head around. And so, you know, of that generation, the young girl that I was just talking about that wants the likes, so she's dressing differently, or the boys that, you know, are just following every sports team that they can find and because they want to talk to their bros about it later, or the stupid I just that was I said stupid, that was a judgment, or um slapstick, you know, like jackass type of comedy. That's not helping brain development. Right. And so we're talking about body betrayal, which has been going on for generations and generations. Then you add social media and the power that it has over the brain as well. So there was, I would encourage everybody to see it. I just watched, I just sent, excuse me, I just made my husband sit down and watch it yesterday. There's this great two or three minute video about Instagram. And so, Instagram, I know you do a great job of trying to stay away from media. I love you for it. Yeah, Instagram was just sued, and probably about six months ago, um, there were change in restrictions of how they handle their platform. It needs to be safer, there needs to be different restrictions, and so what they did in the last week or two is compare the new restrictions and a young follower. So a gentleman set up an account as a 13-year-old girl on Instagram, and the only thing that she followed as a 13-year-old girl were videos of kittens. That's incredible. It's the only thing she liked, it's the only images she followed within one week. 33% of her reels were mental health related. So her algorithm changed solely off of the fact that her profile said that she was a 13-year-old girl. This is with our new parameters. Within two weeks, 77%, 77 after only liking kitten videos solely was self-harm, anorexia, um, bikini photos within two weeks of setting up a profile on Instagram. Those kids are spending 10 to 14 hours a day staring at that screen that is molding their brain.

SPEAKER_03 31:12

It's hard to get your head around.

SPEAKER_02 31:13

I actually have And then we want them to listen to their bodies.

SPEAKER_03 31:15

Exactly. Right, exactly. Right. They don't even, they don't even know. They're so disconnected from their bodies. I was talking to a young person, and I we I was telling them about my husband and I have this um every week when they send out your screen time report. Yeah. And he and I look, and he's like, Oh, I had two and a half hours average, right? And I'm like, oh shit, I had three hours, whatever, which is great. Two and a half hours? Go camera. I know, seriously, right? And so and so we're he does that where we just now I'm trying to beat him, and so we have this whole thing. And so I was asking this young girl that was friends with my one of my daughters, uh, and and I said, How you know, what's your screen time? She goes, I don't know, let me look. 12 hours. I'm like, sister, that's 12 hours. That's it, that's she's not in the she's not an exception. It is half the day, right? And so it's like you wonder why you feel like shit, right? Because it's we have the we have the data, the data's in. We know that that doesn't breed anything good in any of our young people, no matter whether they're boys or girls. Then you start talking about the statistics and the and the things that you're talking about with 13-year-old girls and kittens and all of this stuff. These are billion-dollar algorithms. Your poor little brain doesn't stand a chance. Your poor child stands even less of a chance. And you give that kid that from a young age at two years old because you don't want them to cry, let them cry. Let them cry. We can all handle it, just so you know. We can all handle it. When you're in public, you don't have to shut them down and put a screen in front of them. I will maintain and I will say it again at full volume. I believe that's child abuse. We have the data. The data is in. These young girls are depressed, are suicidal, and boys too, not young girls. I always go to young girls. I'm so sorry. And if you have one of those kids in your house where you can see that at full volume, right? Used to have that in my house, understand exactly what that looks like, right? That's gut wrenching. That's gut wrenching, right? We're not raising capable young women and men. So pause right there. Yeah. Because you went to the gut.

SPEAKER_02 33:11

I know, I got it. And I love that because we're talking about how the body responds. So as a parent, if your body is talking to you, if your gut is talking to you, right, about this tool that we're paying for that we've placed in their hands, listen. Yeah. Are you listening? That's no different than the body betrayal that we started this hour with. Absolutely. It's a different scenario, but we're still talking about the body's messages. Same. So you just said earlier, like, I don't get bullied in my own house. And it just really struck me, we're not meant to be our children's friends. We're not. That's unpopular. That is unpopular. Yeah. My parents weren't my friends. Right. My parents didn't try to be my friends. They tried to be loving, they tried to provide, you know, an education for me. They tried to provide guidance for me. And they did the best they could. Honestly, I was fortunate. I was very fortunate. But I never looked at my mom as my best friend.

SPEAKER_01 34:12

No.

SPEAKER_02 34:12

And so you and I can probably whisper in each other's ears for relationships or households that we know right now, where the parent is the best friend of the child. And I'm gonna, this is my unpopular opinion, scream from the rooftops. That's not healthy. It's not healthy. You're not creating a strong, independent person, as you were just saying, that is supposed to fly and leave and be able to make decisions on their own. So stop trying to be their friend by providing this tool that everybody else is having and teach them, model for them of listening to your gut. Right? A different level of body betrayal, but body betrayal nonetheless.

SPEAKER_00 34:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:53

Take me back to what you were saying earlier about um young girls and men that put themselves in vicarious situations but don't listen to their bodies screaming to get out.

SPEAKER_03 35:06

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SPEAKER_02 35:50

Yeah. In the introduction, like I was really I we you and I, as you said when we first started, we have not chatted about this. This was an idea at breakfast. We intentionally decided that we didn't want to take it any further at that point. But I was intrigued by, you know, young people, because I think it's a problem, but I think we've done it forever.

SPEAKER_03 36:11

We've done it forever, and it's it's it's patterns that we've modeled and then passed on and things that we haven't healed. And so I've literally watched uh in my family the generations that just continue to pass this down, uh, which is savage and terrible, all different things, different numbs of choice, different whatever, but all of the same. Uh, because then when you do that, when you put yourself in those situations, then you blame yourself. So not only are you betraying yourself, but then you're holding yourself to an account to a standard of accountability. But when you put yourself in a I'm gonna say dangerous situation. 100%. Yeah. So I put so feeling guilt about that. But let me give you an example and please. I know, I'm like clarify for me, Peter. Here's a trigger warning for everyone listening. Maybe this is where you get real, you get real comfortable with the uncomfortable. I was a 15-year-old girl working at uh a place where there's old men that own the place, a little pizza pizza shop. Uh they were so inappropriate with what came out of their mouth and where they put their hands. Uh I it and it just bred. It just bred all over the place in that situation. Um I would go hang out with them outside of work, other uh people that they had. And like memories that come up are uh having you know uh sex and other acts with um men that were 15, 20 years older than me, but that I was drunk, completely drunk, and didn't stop it consent with my mouth, but my body is screaming to make it stop. Now, I hold myself accountable to that because I put myself in that situation and I put the alcohol to my mouth. But then when that's happening, not that I initiated it, I'm the good girl and I'm not going to make that uncomfortable, right? Uh I have situations where uh I'm not gonna say that one because there's somebody else involved in that one. And I thought that's what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_02 38:28

So I'm I'm actually glad that you paused right there because I think what you just shared is enough.

SPEAKER_03 38:32

Perfect. And also the other one has somebody else involved in it that's not mine to share. And I and and look at that. That's lovely. How mature is that? Oh fuck god, where did that come? How mature is that? Look at me, though.

SPEAKER_02 38:42

Not your story to share, so you're not gonna share it. Um I got a lot of things. Please let it rip. You were 15. These men, I make an assumption, men, you said we're 15 or 20 years older than you were. You were 15. So I hear you as a mature woman say to me, but I take responsibility and accountability for being there, putting alcohol to my lips and not saying no. And what's screaming in my body is you're 15. The brain is not fully developed in a young girl until she's 25 years old. I love the responsibility and accountability, but I hear a little bit of um guilt. You were 15. It wasn't a 17-year-old boy that we're talking about. That's a different scenario.

SPEAKER_03 39:49

And that and that, and that happened over and over again, that scenario. With peer a peer. Different people with the peer. Well, yeah, but but are you and older? Like I when I was 13, I got, you know, or whatever age, I got in trouble for um whatever. And I was doing community or whatever. Whatever, fill in the blankets. I was, yeah, one of the times I was a hell on wheels, um, you know, and had to go do community service and at some military base, you know, cleaning toilets or whatever the hell I'm doing. And of course, some some older guy thinks I'm great. Now I'm hanging out with some 28-year-old as a 13 or 14-year-old girl and having shit happen with that. And again, don't make a mess, don't make it, don't make anybody else uncomfortable. So no one taught me in that situation that you use your voice and you say if you're in a position that you're uncomfortable with. So I just think I'm being this cute girl and then not wanting to like you know make a make a fuss when things go south.

SPEAKER_02 40:43

Well, certainly not when you're 13 or 15 again, because what are we taught when we're younger? Be a good girl, be a good girl, and be nice, adults are people of authority. Of course. You never disrespect an adult. So when you are really what I'm gonna say, happened to be in, I'm not saying that you're put in those atmospheres, but when you happen to be in atmospheres with bad adults, disrespectful, harmful, unhealthy adults that would look at a 13-year-old or a 15-year-old, regardless of how you were dressed or how beautiful you were or how friendly you were. I've been friendly my whole life. Yeah. And I will tell you, I have, it wasn't until I was probably 40 years old that I realized how naive I was being that men confuse friendliness for flirting. Yes. They do. That's true. I will talk to anybody. That's true. I don't care if you're 102 or if you're two years old, if you're male, female, transgender, whatever. I'm just gonna have a chat with you because I just like people, right? So you shouldn't be discredited or marked down for being friendly and respectful. And then the pattern starts because that's what we learn, and we're just trying to be the good girl, and maybe that's how we get the attention for being a good girl. And maybe we're not getting attention somewhere else in our life. It's a big gaping hole, right? Did any of that sound familiar? When did you come to terms with all of that?

SPEAKER_03 42:39

No, I I come to terms with it all the time because like I said, a lot of that is blacked out. And then as stuff comes up, I come to terms with it every day. And the way that I the way that I process that, because I there's that whole uh therapy style, I think it's IFS or something, where it's you know going back and holding space for that different age of yourself. And I spent decades of my life doing the whole, I'm fine, it's fine, everything's fine. And so what I had to do to kind of shift that is um when I would think back to when a memory would come up of something that happened when I was 13 or 15 or whatever age, I would picture whatever one of my nieces was that age and think about that happening, and would that be okay, right? And I'm I'm so tough, and it's like I can handle it, it's fine, all of the things, but put one of my nieces that I would kill for in that position and that happening, and you wouldn't be able to stop me. And so why would it be any different that that happened to me? Right? And so that helped me process that for this version of Anne, that you know, the inside and the 15 year old. The 13-year-old who you can say, you are 13, you are 15, right? And that's really important to hold space for her and say, you know what, that's real fucked up. That was real fucked up that that happened to you. And we don't have to go back and figure out, should you have been in that position? Should you have said yes? Should you have spoken up? You don't even have to do any of that. That's not important. To me, it's not important in my process. It's holding space for that version of Anne and saying, I'm sorry that you had to go through that. I'm sorry that that was part of it. But also I come from this place of I believe that the messier my story is, the bigger my impact is and my ripple is when I fucking cannonball, right? Because I'm able to have these conversations on this on this couch or in whatever platform, in my books, in whatever my speaking, whatever it is, it doesn't matter. Um because that is stuff that's messed up and that that happened, and also right you can hold space for her and say, okay, what are we learning from that? How do we take that and and use that as ammunition for your message? I think you're learning to invite her into the conversation, right?

SPEAKER_02 45:03

So from a therapeutic point of view, it was so beautiful to listen to you say in those moments when I have those images bubbling back up. So the blackness that you've assigned to a certain, you know, age frame is now gray. And in the gray, it's almost like you can see through the sheer fabric. And so you see images and you know it's you know it's there. Um it made me sad, I will be honest with you, but I thought it was brilliant that you have to assign somebody else's body or face to that image in order to get a real reaction or response from you. I do believe that that's your brain's way, uh, that that has been your brain's way of protecting you for years and years and years since those events occurred, right? It's kind of that out of body. We talked about the detachment. Yeah. And I have to close it down. This happens to so many people, Anne. Like, I have to close it down in order to protect myself because people don't realize your brain's number one function is to protect you. It is not, it is not to remember where your car keys are, to make sure that you show to work up on time, to go to the grocery store because you need food. Fuck that. Your brain's primary function is to keep you alive and to protect you. It is to remind you to breathe. Why do we all forget that that's really what it's here for? It's to remind you every once in a while that you need to drink some water. And if something really scary has happened in your life, your brain involuntarily, girl, is going to take that image, that movie reel in your head, and it's gonna snatch it away from you as quickly as it can, and it's gonna put it in a filing cabinet and it's gonna lock it up until you're ready.

unknown 46:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 46:49

So you're ready because the image is the veil's being lifted and the images are now coming. But it was easier for your brain to assign a different person to those images than to you, because maybe that's maybe that's too painful. Or maybe because you've detached from the 13-year-old Anne for so long.

SPEAKER_03 47:11

Yeah. You you know, I think, I think, I don't think I detach so so in that I'm still that person, okay, it just makes me more like age appropriate. It gets me down to where I don't have to feel like I'm tough, I can handle that. Got it. Do you see what I'm saying? So it's not putting that person there, it's more like age equivalency of, okay, I look at one of my daughters at that age if I'm looking at a picture, or I'm looking at, so it's not putting them in that.

SPEAKER_02 47:38

So if it's a movie real from a third person perspective, yeah, right? Yeah, right. You're not adding any onus onto yourself of I should have no or right here, what I should have done is sat up and I should have pushed and I should have said no, thank you, or I have to go now. No, right. Instead, you are an adult looking and going, This is fucked up. Yeah. But for me, it's wrong.

SPEAKER_03 47:59

It's like when you live your whole life, the you know, the order of what it is, what your insides are, it's hard to like get to whatever that age is. So when I say that started happening when I was seven, that happened when I was nine, that happened when I was 10, I just am carrying this brain all the way through. And so it's like, okay, well, you know, you try to act like it's not act like, I don't, that's not the right word, but you can handle it. Right. But it's like, no, no, no, but look at a seven-year-old equivalent of that girl or twelve, you know. So if you're looking back at pictures of your daughters and thinking about, okay, I know that's what happened, that's what's coming up for me. I know what happened when I was 12. Here's my daughters when they're 12, here's my nieces when they're 12, or here's people that are important to me when we're 12. And and then taking that and going, those girls should be worried about like what color they're painting their nails, not how to keep 30-year-old men off of them. Right, right. And that's the shit where it's like, I want to scream from the rooftops to other people that we have to have these conversations. So, what would you tell them though?

SPEAKER_02 49:00

I mean, not knowing where you are in the exact space that you are now with this revelation, yeah, right? The new Anne who's now the veil is lifting and you're able to sit with it.

SPEAKER_03 49:16

What would you scream if you could lean into the discomfort as a parent to have those conversations because I talk to people and they say, sure, sure, we know. And I'm like, okay, tell me the conversations that you guys have talked about. With your kids, conversations with your kids. Exactly. When you talk to other parents about like, tell me what that conversation looks like in your house, because I think there's age-appropriate ways to have those conversations with any age kids. And people are, I'm talking to people that have 13-year-old girls and they're like, Oh, yeah, I'm sure they know, you know, whatever. I'm like, what have you guys talked about? And it's like, well, we haven't said anything specifically. You're gonna leave that to chance? I watched, I I'm sure they know. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 49:53

I'm sure they told them, but I'm sure they know.

SPEAKER_03 49:55

Exactly. It's like to me, that that blows my mind. I watched a video the other day, and it was I've never had a depiction of of why I do what I do in a better way. And I'm gonna describe it to you. So there's this gal out there, and I think her Instagram handle is heal with Brit, B-R-I-T-T. I follow her. Do you? Yeah, excellent. Did you see the one where she's in colleges speaking? And it says, so she's she's it it's panning out at the at the auditorium, and it says, if you know some, I'm gonna get full-body chills, if you know someone who has been sexually abused, stand. Literally everyone stands, right? There's a couple people that are still sitting. She goes, okay. If you, if those people, her second question was, if those people reported that, right, stay standing, and if they didn't, that you know of, sit down. 80% of the people, 90% of the people sat down, right? Then she asked the third question and it said, if that person, the perpetrator, saw justice or there was something that happened, stay standing, everybody else sit down. There was literally only a couple of people that are sitting there, right? That is why my first episode on this podcast was about sexual abuse. That is why I will scream from the rooftops how important this is. That is why I will defend my daughters, my nieces, my son, my nephews, my all of the things, and we will have these fucking conversations. And if you don't want to have them, turn them in, turn them on to a fucking podcast that I do and let them, and then let them come. Ask. I'm not saying it's comfortable. There's nothing comfortable about saying, hey, these are your privates. You don't let other people touch them. It doesn't matter. We have this conversation. You say no, you use your voice at full volume, compliance is not consent, like all of these different things that we need to say that because you don't unring that bell, right? We're not gonna say, oh, I'm sure they know. Are you crazy? That whole auditorium is either sexually abused or knows someone that's sexually abused, and we're not gonna talk about it. That's where we are because we're uncomfortable. Fuck you.

SPEAKER_02 51:55

Fuck you and your comfort. We're uncomfortable, but it's not uncomfortable. Are you crazy? Yeah disconnecting from the world.

SPEAKER_03 52:05

Do you know what that feels like to have somebody that's in their 40s commit suicide because they had so much sexual trauma that they never were able to heal from it? You know how fucked up that is? Or haven't been able to maintain a healthy relationship their entire life. Right. Right. But we don't want to have an uncomfortable conversation before the bell gets rung. Right. We don't want to do that, or we're not sure what the conversation looks like. Has anybody out there heard of this thing called the worldwide fucking web? If you don't know how to have a conversation with your kids, go in there and say, How do I have a conversation about sexual assault with my children that's age appropriate? Give me some pointers, give me some tips. We don't do it after the fact. These dads are like, oh, I'll protect my daughters. Will you? Because I guarantee you probably 90% of them have been fucking diddled by somebody else, if not fucking raped or sexually assaulted in a bigger way than just that. Are you crazy right now? I heard a story from somebody important in my life where it was like, and this is back in the day generations ago. The uncle fucking molested the young girl. They didn't have a conversation in the family about it. They just moved him to somewhere else, which felt very indicative of fucking Catholicism. Literally, are you crazy? Now I start getting angry. All right, I'm gonna bring her right back down.

SPEAKER_02 53:16

I love it. Bring her bring her back to case she needed to release.

SPEAKER_03 53:19

I know, but it's just she needed to release. And people stuff to hear it. They do, because it's like, don't who care? Who cares if you're uncomfortable? I do uncomfortable shit all day, every day. I lean into discomfort in a way that makes me uncomfortable, just even thinking about it.

SPEAKER_02 53:32

But am I going to save my discomfort so that my child will be uncomfortable? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 53:39

So that my comfort.

SPEAKER_02 53:41

Which one is more important? I don't, I don't care if they're gonna go, mom, I don't want to have this conversation. Ooh, this is gross. Oh my God, we've already heard it. You're gonna hear it again. And one of two things are gonna happen. They're gonna roll their eyes, they're gonna say, You are so lame, and they're gonna walk away and go, Oh, plants, seeds planted. Huh. All right, some of that made sense, huh? They're gonna recall it when they need it. Yeah, or they're gonna go, thank God I'm not invisible. She gets it. Like, does she already know that I'm experiencing some of this? One of two things are gonna happen. It's gonna be awkward for 10 minutes.

SPEAKER_03 54:20

100%. 100% is gonna be on minutes.

SPEAKER_02 54:22

And you're gonna have to lead with vulnerability, right? You know what? Going to the gastroenterologist is awkward. Getting a colonoscopy is awkward. Walking into a brand new room of people you don't know, it's awkward. We all move past it for the better.

SPEAKER_03 54:37

Yeah, it's just gonna be awkward. That's it. Whoever told everybody that we're supposed to remain comfortable all the time? I think comfort's a four-letter word, if you ask me. Oh, right. It's one thing to say, it's it's one thing to say, like, oh, I'm comfortable in this couch or like whatever that looks like. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about if you're comfortable in your job, if you're comfortable in your relationships, if you're comfortable in different things in life, you're missing it. You're fucking missing it.

SPEAKER_02 55:00

You're so missing it.

SPEAKER_03 55:01

We're supposed to be up there swinging for the fence. We're supposed to be doing things that make us uncomfortable. We're supposed to be doing things that challenge us. We're supposed to be chasing our highest excitement, right? That's where life is. Everyone else is just waiting to die, right? Everyone else is just waiting to die. You want to just live in the hamster wheel of mediocrity and just keep numbing? You pick your numb of choice, stuff it down, numb, stuff it down, numb. It's not a good look. It's not a good look. Choose this one.

SPEAKER_02 55:24

Yeah. Choose this one to be uncomfortable about 100%. Because it's important enough. Yeah. For males and females. Because this isn't just a female topic. No. Right? I mean, I do, I'm at the age now where I'm talking to so many moms, and I'm a boy mom. So I'm very conflicted on both sides, right? Half the time we're telling our boys, like, if you go in for a hug, you need to ask her first. Because if you don't, she could go home and make a comment and you know, somebody's gonna show up at our door. I have moms that are telling their husbands, their husbands that so sorry, that are telling their sons, like, before you put your hand on her knee, you need to say, is it okay if I put my hand on your knee now? And I love that, but we we now are creating a huge disconnect, right? So the conversations aren't just for young girls, it's also for men. Watch how you treat women, be appropriate, right? Um know that there are some, and you and I, this is another topic, girl, because we do not have time right now, but we do know that there are a few bad eggs out there, females that will cry wolf or or use sexual um inappropriateness for their own title or their own posting. And that is just a mind fuck to the whole system. It totally is. It totally is that just calls the whole system into question. Um and those that have been victimized now are not being listened to, which has happened for generations and generations. And young men are afraid to even hold hands with a girl anymore.

SPEAKER_03 57:01

Well, they can't even understand, you know. I've talked to Cameron about this, and it's like when I tell him we were raised to not use our voice. So when men come and hug or you know, say inappropriate stuff, we were meant to, or we were raised to and programmed and conditioned to laugh, make certain that it's not uncomfortable for them, instead of saying, dude, gross, I'm fucking 15. Don't talk to me like that. Right. That's all it takes, though. If you educate, you know, our young people, that's all it takes, is like, bro, age appropriate, like get a no. It doesn't have to be a whole big thing. We don't have to burn anybody down, but we can absolutely use our colony bosses. Absolutely, we don't put him in his place. We need to stand on business and and and put him absolutely, but if we weren't raised to do that, right, then they don't even understand. So so they don't they they don't think they're doing anything wrong. And from the outside, they're not, because if you didn't say no, right? But we were raised to not say no. We were raised to be good girls and to be compliant.

SPEAKER_02 57:57

I will say though, some men were also raised 100% to believe that women love the attention, yeah, that they love a whistle, yeah, that they that you're doing her a favor, that you're setting her up for a good day. And some women like a whistle, some women have to use fuck you, which is why you have to use your voice, and we're supposed to say fuck you.

SPEAKER_03 58:15

Do you know what I mean? That's the whole thing. So it's like there's that, there's this balance of figuring out how to use your voice and speak your truth, and that's what we have to be teaching our young ones. No matter, no matter if it's boys or girls, because boys are sexually assaulted. Just that that's I mean, when I say use boys and girls in all of this, just so all the listeners know, I mean everybody, right? It's it happens on all sides from all things. Yeah. So it's like, but let's let's get uncomfortable, let's have the conversations. This is a big fucking problem. It's not gonna go away by continuing to push it under the rug.

SPEAKER_02 58:48

So I have one piece of advice for anybody who's listening specifically about this topic or just in general. I had an amazing mentor um out of Atlanta and who sat me down during dinner one time and I brought this big topic to him. I'm sure it was about a career change. I didn't know what to do. I was really at odds. I was really very confused. And I said, Stuart, I don't know how to proceed. And he just looked at me and he's like, Yes, you do. I was like, No, I really don't. Like, I could hurt a lot of people here. Um, maybe I'm not worth this group this growth. Maybe I can just sit with it. And he's like, the little girl inside of your gut knows what to do, Jill. And I had no concept of what he was talking about, Ann. And I said, Excuse me. And he said, I believe that everybody has a six-year-old in their gut.

SPEAKER_01 59:34

I believe that.

SPEAKER_02 59:34

And that six-year-old doesn't know how to lie, it doesn't understand deceit, it only knows the truth. And she is talking to you and she is telling you exactly what you need to do. Just listen to the little girl.

SPEAKER_03 59:48

I've never done it differently since then. I agree with you, and you're the hairs on the back of my neck are standing up because mine is the eight-year-old girl. And what I what I equate that to is the the the point where before the loss of your innocence, tap back into that little girl because that little girl doesn't lie, and that little girl knows exactly. And so I try to stay connected with her. I try to live my whole entire life from that perspective. From that awe and wonder and and honesty and curiosity, because I believe that that's exactly where it's at. Yes, girl. Thank you, Jill, for coming today and speaking with me. It's been fun. Yeah, thank you for the raw and open conversation. I love that Jill goes, it's been fun. She's a therapist. Yeah, she's like, Oh, you want to display yourself open for human consumption? Yes, this is fun. We're gonna have lunch afterwards. It's gonna be great. Um, that's our time for today. So if something hits stirred or lit a fire under you and you've got uh thoughts, questions, or a story you're ready to share, slide into our DMs or email us at ladies at let's get naked podcast.com. If you believe in these conversations, help us keep them rolling. Follow, share, rate, review, do all the things. We will catch you next time. That's a wrap.