#13: Surviving Breast Cancer: Emma Thornton on Thermography, Thermocheck, and Early Detection Breakthroughs

Rethinking Breast Health: Thermography and Beyond with Emma Thornton

Judith welcomes Emma Thornton, a health entrepreneur and breast cancer survivor, to discuss breast cancer. Emma shares her stage 3 triple-negative diagnosis and why she explored thermography, a radiation-free imaging technique that can detect early signs of breast cancer years before lumps form. She explains limits of mammography, especially for dense breast tissue, and the benefits of thermography as a non-invasive, pain-free alternative. We also cover diet, lifestyle and environmental factors, and practical, actionable steps for earlier detection and prevention

Timestamps

00:00 Introduction to Breast Cancer Awareness
 00:58 Emma Thornton's Personal Journey
 02:27 The Importance of Early Detection
 05:47 Challenges with Current Screening Methods
 07:55 Thermography: A New Hope
 09:10 Thermography vs. Mammography
 09:50 The Thermography Process
 16:54 Proactive Breast Health Measures
 20:47 The Role of Diet and Nutrition
 23:19 Alternative Therapies and Personal Agency
 30:42 Rising Breast Cancer Rates and Contributing Factors
 32:19 The Impact of Lifestyle and Environmental Factors
 33:34 The Role of Trauma and Emotional Health
 34:37 Critical Stages in Life and Breast Cancer Risk
 40:03 Gut Microbiome and Breast Cancer
 42:27 Nutrient Depletion and Cancer
 43:05 Mammograms and Cancer Risk
 46:05 Alternatives to Mammograms
 46:57 Personal Experiences with Breast Cancer
 47:32 Proactive Breast Health Measures
 48:55 Thermo Check and Early Detection
 55:25 Hormone Therapy and Breast Cancer
 58:04 Advocating for Better Breast Health
 01:01:45 Making Preventative Care Accessible
 01:04:53 Personal Reflections and Advice
 01:06:46 Rapid-Fire Questions and Insights

Social Media Links
Website: https://www.livebrave.com/
LinkedIn:https://l1nk.dev/2ZCyr
Instagram:https://l1nk.dev/1GkQn

📚 Resources Mentioned in This Episode

Thermocheck & Thermography

ThermoCheck Breast Health Scan – A non-invasive, radiation-free, and pain-free alternative for early detection of breast cancer risk. Available at the Natural Doctor Clinic in London with Dr. Nyjon Eccles

Supplements & Supportive Therapies

Vitamin D – Key for gene expression and breast health
Iodine – For hormonal regulation and thyroid support
Medicinal Mushrooms (Turkey Tail, Cordyceps) – Used in cancer recovery protocols (with oncologist approval)
Melatonin (high dose for specific cancer types) – Discussed as supportive, but only under medical guidance
CBD & THC – Used during treatment for pain relief and chemo side-effect management (in legal regions)

Lifestyle & Integrative Approaches Mentioned

Acupuncture
Infrared sauna & red light therapy
Fasting / Keto-based nutrition
Coffee enemas (Gerson therapy)
Lymphatic drainage massage
Epsom salt baths
Vitamin IVs (tailored)

Books / Experts Referenced

Live Brave by Emma Thornton (her own book, mentioned at the end)
Dr. Naomi Potter & Davina McCall – Menopausing (discussed as breaking stigma in women’s health)
Other influential doctors in breast cancer and hormone care: Dr. Rina Men, Dr. Suzanne Gilberg-Lenz, Dr. Kelly Casper

Insta/TikTok: @BiohackingEve
Website: www.BiohackingEve.com

Transcript

Emma 0:00

Nobody, nobody enjoys having a mammogram. It's uncomfortable, it's painful it's often, you know All of the above. And it's scary as with a lot of mammography, there is sometimes the waiting and the worrying and sometimes a biopsy that can turn out to be negative. Those areas are really fundamentally important when we're talking about women's health because they don't just affect the woman, they affect her friends and family and, and everyone that she's supporting at this at the same time. So my, wish is that we are able to talk about breast health more that we're able to take positive, proactive, and preventative steps that safeguards our breast health for longer. And that we actually minimize the incidents of, breast cancer moving forwards. So all of these elements are designed with that in mind.

Judith Mueller 0:55

Welcome back to Biohacking Eve, health Optimization for Women with Judith Miller, where we shine a light on everything that will help you reach your best self. As a woman, as unique and individual as then you can be live long and prosper my friend. Hello and welcome back everyone. Today we're diving into breast cancer, a topic that touches so many women. Yet most of us are still unsure of what we can actually practically do about it. Despite all the awareness campaigns, rates are rising, especially in younger women, and many of you confused about what really works when it comes to prevention and screening. That's why today we're zooming into an alternative approach, thermography. It's a radiation free imaging technique that can detect early signs of breast cancer risks years before lump forms, but is a hype or hope, and what else do we need to rethink about breast health? That's why today I'm joined by Emma Thornton, who is a health entrepreneur and most importantly breast cancer survivor, whose personal journey led her to reimagine how we approach screening. Risk and resilience. Emma, I'd love to begin with your story. What brought you to this work?

Emma 2:16

Hi, Judith. Well, funny enough. 10 years ago, I was diagnosed with breast cancer almost 10 years ago to the day, and I'd had a mammogram the year before, and I found, actually a year later, I found my own lump. so it was already stage three triple negative breast cancer. And what was strange to me is I was working at Nike at the time and I was really fit and really healthy, at least on the outside. I was working with athletes. I was looking after the Olympics from a brand marketing point of view. And so I was really thinking about sport and performance and diet and nutrition. And so it was a shock. It was a real shock, as it is to many, many women. And I didn't normally check regularly, I'll be honest, like most women, just in the shower and I felt the lump. So after that I went through a lot of treatment. I also approached it in a very curious way with a mission to learn about what was there out there, in terms of what was being prescribed to me. I was in the US at the time by the traditional medical community, but also other elements that I could incorporate potentially into my treatment plan. So 10 years on I'm now very much involved with breast health generally, and I've got all those learnings, all that experience and channel that into where I am today.

Judith Mueller 3:35

Fantastic. So you've got a presentation to teach us more about that. Off you go.

Emma 3:40

Fantastic. Well thank you for having me today. Really excited to be here to share some of these learnings and hopefully it will, more questions, spur more interest. And I think ultimately what the goal is, obviously is to decrease breast cancer. And we can do that by decreasing breast cancer risk by looking really at what can we do proactively and preventatively through breast health. Because I think it's really shocking, you know, that actually breast cancer is increasing still. the leading cause of death in cancer for women and globally it's on the rise massively still, particularly with younger women. So 20 22, 2 0.3 million women were diagnosed we are getting better at diagnosing it. That's for sure. And we are getting. There are have been some advancements in terms of treating, but it's still a very big cause of death amongst women. And the lifetime risk is huge. Still, and the number of cases is huge. So globally. is a death every minute globally. So mortality's increasing and what's worryingly most of all is that it's women under 50 that are really suffering. and I know we'll dive into a little bit of what we think the reasons for that are but it's really, you know, this pervasive globally that's affecting younger and younger women that's really worrying. And that's. Something that we should all be concerned about, that's something we should all be able to do something about, because ultimately the current system isn't designed to detect or to treat those younger women. And I think lots has changed. You know, there's lifestyle shifts, diet shifts childhood obesity, processed foods. There's a lot more conversation around and food and diet and nutrition. Of course, is huge. And increasing and all of that is underpinned of course by systemic inflammation and so it's the detection of that inflammation that's really important and the good news is we can actually do something about it. 'cause gut microbiome. There's lots of conversations around gut microbiome of course as well, which plays into inflammation and how your gut brain axis operates within the body. But gut, brain and performance axis and there's environmental exposures, you know, there's a lot that's. Talked about these days in terms of endocrine disruptors are everywhere, whether it's microplastics, BPAs cosmetics, food packaging, so on and so forth. But it's that hormone regulation that does make a big difference in terms of breast cancer as well. I mentioned self-examination, that's just a call out really. But I was always shocked at how it's not obvious or how people don't know how to self-exam. If you don't know, please look it up. But it really is, about collecting that regularity of information. Whenever we talk about health and whenever we talk about data, it's that longitudinal health. Factors that we are interested in, that data we all want to examine. really it's that regularity of self-exam when we're talking about breast health. That does make a difference. I the shower when I noticed something untoward, so that's, you know, we're all busy women. And sometimes that's the only five minutes in the day that you get to actually be with your own thoughts. You can think about your to-do list. a great opportunity depending on the time of the month to do your self exam at that point. So that's, my shout out generally in terms of proactive steps that we can all do. Like I mentioned, you know, I'd had a mammogram a year before I found my own lump. And so it's worth mentioning some of the, data and statistics around mammography. It's not brilliant for dense breast tissue. I had dense breasts. It's now. and it's now mandated that in the US women are told whether they have dense breast tissue or not, we're actually campaigning. There are a number of women like Julia Bradbury, for example, in the uk. And we're together with campaigning to have the knowledge of dense breast tissues more regularly communicated to women so that at least they know it, that something might be missed. We know that that's important, particularly for younger women. As I mentioned, that under 50 cohorts. Reduced sensitivity in terms of HRT, particularly synthetic HRT and also HRT can make breasts more dense, so there's lower sensitivity in terms of what can show up. There's some debate around the pressure involved with mammography. We all know how uncomfortable it is. Of course. But it's also that level of pressure can disturb something that potentially is already there. So 22 pounds of pressure can, can rupture something, a capsule of a tumor, for example. Generally speaking, it's 42 pounds of pressure with a mammogram. So that's also something to take into consideration. And then generally speaking, you know, within this community of women who have choose alternative methods of screening, for example. We were able to ask women, you know, what do you think and how do you know about mammography? And what surprises me all the time is that nearly 40% of women in their forties would delay mammography once they learn about some of the downsides. So in terms of what, what are alternatives? There's, there are other screening methodologies out there, which is the good news. There's MRI, there is ultrasound of course. Usually available, depending on your age and depending on your country and what's provided by the healthcare system. Some of those, of course, come with a, some with a copay or come with a private insurance or private healthcare tag, a price tag. But thermography itself is, I want to raise as, as an alternative, it's something I care passionately about. And got really excited about it when I heard about thermography. And what is it? Well, thermography, as you would guess, is all about infrared and heat, and it's about using a highly specialized infrared camera to measure infrared heat. So measure the heat within the breast tissue. And what's interesting is studies have shown a 61% increase in survival rate when combined with other scan methods. So what we're talking about there is this for early detection of breast cancer risk and. It's also important because it can be more significant than family history, for example. So when we think about all of those challenges in our everyday life, those environmental toxins, those stresses that we put on our body, just living in modern life, it's important for us to be able to get a benchmark for how our breast health is and what it, what's going on inside our body and our breasts are often a barometer for the rest of our body, generally speaking. And then we can do something about it. So it's that information that can really help guide and help us prioritize in terms of proactive and preventative measures moving forward. So thinking about mammography versus thermography, thermography for example, is non-invasive. It's radiation free, it's proactive and pain-free. is that early methodology in terms of established scanning technologies. Not all thermography is created equal. It's important for me to say that, and we can dive in a little bit more about that as well. if you go for thermography and you go for a check scan, for example, at the Natural Doctor clinic in London, there are specific protocols that Dr. Nigel Les has worked really hard to get a robust, repeatable, and reliable result.

Judith Mueller 11:01

What are they?

Emma 11:03

Great question. It's all about the cool challenge. So it's all about putting women through and your breast tissue through a cooling challenge. And it's about zoning in on the specificity and the sensitivity of the thermo check scan. So what we do is we look at the temperature differentials. We look at cooling and the abnormalities of cooling within the breast tissue, and we also look at the vascular patterns. So it's really about combining those elements. It's not just a straightforward as having a thermo check. An image taken of your breast tissue and seeing what the breast temperature is. You know, with that there may be some indication of extra heat in the breast tissue, but what's important is to be able to dive a little bit deeper and make sure that the actual process that you go through when you're in the clinic all of these different elements. So the cool challenge, and I'll go into it a little bit more as well in a second. What we do when a placement arrives at the clinic, we take a series of images across the breast tissue and at different angles. important because obviously we want to see the full breast tissue and we want to be able to analyze what's going on across the breast tissue all the way up to the armpit area. And that should also be, as you're self-checking, that should be an area of course. And around the nipple area is an area that often people forget as well. But CMA check images, sees all that straight away. And what's important is that when we put the breast tissue, the patient through a cooling system, and we do that with a fan called process non-invasive it's very quick and it's very easy. We just sit there and as the images are taken, and what that does is it captures to a very, very small. Degree, the actual variation in the breast temperature across a grid shape specifically for the breast tissue, and then the technician alters that grid shape according to every woman who goes in there and according to your specific breast. And what's important about that is we're able to see them take additional series of images. After the breast tissue is called and see the differential between the two. And that's what is super important in terms of getting a, robust, reliable thermo check. And then, as I mentioned, we overlay the vascular happens on top of that to get a really good result. But I think when you're looking at thermo check and you're looking at therm thermography versus mammography, with these specific protocols in place is more specific and more sensitive. So what that means is there are fewer false positives and the true positive rate, either the reliability of a test and a result, identifying that there's something untoward going on there is may as well. So both of those statistics are above 90%, whereas something like mammography on its own areas in the eighties. So when you look at a normal thermogram, you can see a variety of different temperatures amongst the breast tissue and breasts, generally speaking, tend to be relatively cool. They're outside the body and particularly when they're sent through a cooling process, they cool down quite uniformly and quite quickly. However, when you see an abnormal scan, what you see is part of the imagery is you see heat within the breast tissue that doesn't cool down. That shows up as red or pink within the images. So it's really clear, particularly with what we do, which is comparing one breast with the other breast. really clear between the cooling process and then also one breast to the other breast if there's something untoward going on that requires further investigation. And we also overlay the images of the vascular structure. So. If there are certain normal images of vascular pattern and vascular structure, vascular structure actually changes, which is interesting. So for example, if a woman is breastfeeding, the vascular structure can change. And that's why we always say wait six months until after that, if you've had a biopsy, for example, you have to wait three to six months until after that before you have a a thermo check scan. But what's interesting is there is a huge range of other. structures that are abnormal. So it could be a loop pattern. For example, it could be a really strong indication of inflammation within the breast tissue. It could be fragmented vascular structures as well, which means there's something potentially blocking the flow. But ultimately what we look for is to see if there is a inflammation or something like an early tumor, which is pulling. Vascular structure, vascular support. So support from the blood vessels within the breast tissue towards this tumor so that's why we overlay across check the thermographic imagery, the vascular structure, and to get a really good full picture. So overall, what does that do? That gives us an early indication of some abnormalities. And that actually gives us peace of mind. It gives the patient peace of mind. It can give us also more importantly a window of functional intervention time and natural intervention time. And what we've found with all the thousands of women that we've scanned at the London Clinic, we found that there are a series of factors within those women that some commonalities. And there are some elements within breast health that we look for to see if we can positively impact breast health if we see that there's an abnormal scan. And of course if there's an abnormal scan and it's say a, a rating of three, four or five, and there are other indications during the conversation and the intake process with the patient, then we can send them back to, System back to the NHS, for example, or back to their incumbent healthcare provider, back to their doctor. To say with a list of questions to ask and to say, okay, could I maybe have a an MRI, given the basis of this scan, could I have an MRI further investigation?

Judith Mueller 16:57

So looking at the graph basically for those who can't see, if you wanna go back one slide. So we say. Year one, you've got 16 cancer cells accumulating. Year two is about 256. Year three, I think it's about five to 10 millimeters, so an MRI ultrasound mammogram might be able to pick it up, and that's about 50,000 cancer cells. Then I think year. Four, five ish. It's about over 1 million. So that's already 50 millimeter we'll be saying that you can find in self-examination, but that's already five years after the starter. Right. So that's super interesting. And then we've got sort of six to eight years is over 200 million cancer cells that's 25 millimeters basically metastatic. And you've kind of wouldn't say lost the game there, but it's a bit late. So it's super interesting to see what the trajectory is and when you can actually pick things up. So back to you.

Emma 17:52

Absolutely. And I think even with self examination, you know, my tumor was already. Big, you know, big enough for me to find accidentally. And so it was already stage three and I think what excites me most about early detection is that there is a wind of opportunity for women to do something about it. And what we find is that over 80% of women with an abnormal scan, have an opportunity to reverse the scan or go back to a normal scan, normalize their scan results. And really tackle what we're seeing on the thermogram, which is breast health challenges, inflammation, inflection, all of those things that actually we can do something about. There is absolutely good news in there for many, many women. And what we see is, you know there is an opportunity for healthy breast support. And I know we'll dive into this I think in a little bit more Judith, but vitamin D is super important and people know a lot about vitamin D, but generally speaking in terms of gene expression, we talk a lot about genetics, but it's the epigenetic piece here as well that comes to play in terms of how our bodies function well. And iodine is important as well for hormonal regulation. a lot of these things we see, you know, as women age and we go through perimenopause and menopause, these areas, including estrogen metabolism, of course, come to play in a lot broader fashion. So I think that's part of the conversation as well. But what we're seeing, as I mentioned earlier, is this endocrine disruption. We are seeing these factors, these environmental factors play into breast health for women at a lot younger age. There are other things you can do as well, and we'll touch on those shortly as well. But in terms of, of general biohacking I know that's very close to your heart, Judith, but there's lots of tips and tricks and techniques and health hacks that really reduce inflammation and support positive breast health.

Judith Mueller 19:46

Do you wanna go through these in more detail, Ashley, about them?

Emma 19:49

We can, we can, and feel free to dive in because I know you know a lot about these things as well.

Judith Mueller 19:54

So I am just conscious because we don't have everyone seeing the slides, so some people are just listening. So it'd be good to, to maybe go through that.

Emma 20:02

I we'll dive in. Absolutely. Now, what I'm gonna talk about is not medical advice, of course. And I caveat that, that with everything I talk about, I'm a breast cancer

Judith Mueller 20:12

I.

Emma 20:12

I'm a breast cancer advocate. I coach and mentor lots of women going through breast cancer. So what I hear on a day-to-day basis surprises me, let's say, shocks me. And the number one thing that shocks me is the advice that women receive about diet and nutrition. And bear in mind, this is women who are already going through biopsies, facing a cancer diagnosis. It's not just, you know, 20 women in their twenties, thirties, forties, who are maybe you know, concerned or wanting to, to take a more proactive approach. This is women who are actually at the hospital already and the number of times I hear someone say, well, my doctor said I should have a glass of wine and relax and not worry about that as I go through chemo. and my heart sinks, honestly, because, you know, that was one of the things that I was lucky enough to find fantastic functional medicine doctors who specialized in cancer care during my treatment. and I was lucky enough to be able to afford to go and see them. A very good healthcare insurance working at Nike at the time, I, I also strongly believed that I should ask questions and I think I would also Encourage any woman going through any question, concern, any breast health challenge or, query even, you know, e especially if for example, you, you think you are, have a higher risk if you have seen your BRCA gene, for example. Or if you have members of the family who have had breast cancer in the past. Go to your doctors and ask them questions and do a bit of research yourself and go armed with that knowledge and information. To not leave until you get an answer that you feel comfortable with, because that's where it starts. And being a self-advocate and being able to, you don't always have to go on your own if you can find a, a friend to go along with you and to take notes and to ask some of those questions. That always helped me as well. I think going back to number one, of course, is diet and nutrition. We talk a lot about fasting. There's debate of course for menopause or women, how good fasting is and what type of fasting or intermittent fasting we should all be doing. So again, check with your medical team first. What I did during cancer treatment and during chemo was I followed quite a, a strict keto diet with the odd, you know, if I felt like having something different, I would have something different. Just for peace of mind and not to get stressed about it, really, really lowered my sugar. And I fasted day before, day of and day after chemo. And not only did I do that, obviously to increase the delta between the. your healthy cells, and then the cancer cells, which are still super active. And the theory, of course, is that the chemo is then more effective on those, those cancer cells. But I also did it to help minimize and reduce the side effects of chemotherapy. So did lots of juicing, I did lots of yeah, cut out sugar, of course. And I, generally went keto. had been quite vegetarian, vegan before, but I took things like bone broth to help nourish my body and help really help encourage fueling the good within the system and helping my system boost my system in between What's incredibly depleting depleting process of chemotherapy 'cause was it's designed to kill everything. well designed to kill cancer, but not kill everything. I went in the sauna. I was lucky enough to have a friend who had an infrared sauna, and not only did the sauna help my body and help me detox sweat out some of the cancer drugs, it also provided me with a sanctuary and a space where I could listen to podcasts, listen to my Blinkist. Books and also where I could just sort of be be still and be at peace for a while. It's very difficult when you're going through cancer to switch off your mind. but that provided me with, ability to sort of sit there and process. You know, often you're supporting friends and family, which you tend to be, because when you tell someone you've got cancer. Often somebody, you know, pries on your shoulder. And so it's nice sometimes to have that moment of peace and tranquility and know that you are doing something good. I think a lot of what I did was for me to have personal agency and for me to take a little bit more control. Vitamin IVs. I would sit next to some women that I met and spent lots of time with and, and got to know and make friends with who were stage four taking Vitamin IVs. My caution here would be that there are a lot of places now that do Vitamin IVs but if you're going through breast cancer, make sure that your medical team, your oncologist signs it off, but also that you are getting a tailor made. Concoction of what you actually need. So high vitamin C of course, but other things there as well. And also anything that you don't want anything to counteract what else you're doing. I think, you know, my oncologist was great. We had a traffic light system, red, amber, or green. when I first said, do I need chemotherapy? She said, yes, absolutely you do. So don't ask me that again. so that was an interesting one. Acupuncture was green. I did a lot of acupuncture in between. chemo treatments. It's fantastic for menopause and perimenopause regardless of whether you're going through cancer. I think acupuncture is hugely beneficial. And particularly if you can find someone who is well versed in the type of acupuncture and can tailor what you are doing to specifically need. Could be gut health, could be, like I said, you know, the side effects of perimenopause and menopause could be going through cancer. I think, you know, a sort of a story that I tell people is that my acupuncturist Ella actually stopped my nipples falling off. after, you know, I laugh now, but you know, they went really black after a double mastectomy. And so acupuncture helped them not fall off. Which I never really liked them in the first place, but there we are. We kept, we kept them going and, and here they are today. But acupuncture was hugely beneficial on that. In that regard, and I felt like a new woman coming out, you know, I went straight from chemo to acupuncture and then afterwards felt incredibly, incredibly, incredibly revived and, calm afterwards. Epsom salt bath, Epsom salt baths are one of those things that have been ran for hundreds and hundreds of years. I think they're highly underrated. It's completely non-invasive. Anyone could do it at any age. remember to shower afterwards, so you actually rinse off everything that's come out from the, the Epsom salt. but yes, again, you know, put some candles out, relax, enjoy that five, 10, however many minutes you get relaxing in the bath with the Epsom salts. But that's something I continue to do as well. Gerson therapy. Coffee enemas. Again, a bit of a there, there's, there is a lot of varying. Advice and opinions around Gerson therapy. liked it. I still do coffee enemas from time to time along with a fasting protocol. I originally did them 20 plus years ago in Thailand at a, at a star. so I'm a huge fan. Again, again, that was really to get the chemotherapy drugs moving through. And I was all about finding my happy place and my happy place during chemo was going to the golf course. So all of these therapies and, and modalities, I did because I wanted to get healthier and I wanted to feel better, and I wanted to get back on the golf course. So that's why it was on my list. Medicinal mushrooms Turkey tail cord deps again, you know, eastern medicine, Chinese medicine. Very well known, very well regarded. Ask your oncologist first. There was a window when I didn't take them day before day of and day after chemo. But otherwise I was on relatively high dose type tear and quadriceps, lymph drainage massage. I love and I think, think what's really important about lymph drainage massage, and anyone can do it and should do it all the time. Is that particularly if you're going through a chronic illness or dealing with chronic inflammation or going through cancer, are many moments when you actually get treated where you feel hand touched that isn't very medicalized. You are in hospital, you know, you are undressing all the time and and prodded and and so forth. But being able to have some type of having another human being give you a very nurturing and beneficial massage. for me was a game changer. And I hear that a lot from other women going through breast cancer. That sort of human touch, that kindness and that energy transference, you know aside from the medicalized treatments can be hugely beneficial. I took CBD and absolutely I cleared it with my oncologist first. I was lucky enough actually to be on the west coast of the US and it was medically legalized, CBD and THC. Cannabis was, medically legalized. I didn't I took broad spectrum C-B-D-T-H-C mix, and I took it to manage my side effects of chemotherapy as well as for pain relief. So it really operated on multiple levels there. Then I took melatonin. I took 20 grams of melatonin every day because for my type of cancer, it wasn't necessarily about helping me sleep for my type of cancer. It was beneficial on a cellular level to be, to have those high doses. But again, you know, I would caveat all of that with do test, check your hormone levels, check your resources. There's lots of incredible doctors out there. Cancer doctors and for women who have been through cancer as well, you know, to name a few. I would say Dr. Naomi Potter outta the uk. Dr. Rin Men and Dr. Suzanne Gilbert Lenss, both the US based and Dr. K Kelly Casper as well. So there are thankfully becoming more and more doctors specialized in this field, both for women going through cancer and then post-cancer as well. Particularly when we talk about perimenopause, menopause, and hormone health. So I think just to round out on that, you know for me it's all about this integrated approach. It's about your body, it's about your mind, and it's about your spirit and it's about when you're going through something like breast cancer. So really everything you can do to support those three areas going forward. It can be incredibly lonely, for example. So it's important that you can find as you can find your network, find your team, find humor in the darkness if you can. That was part of my strategy. I had a three, strategy. Anyone who, who knows me, and I was working at Nike at the time, I was really strong on, on strategy. Whatever job you're doing, whatever your strengths. They can come to play at moments like this and, and you can really create a way forward that, that helps not just you, but your team and your family and friends rally around you. So mine was fight to win, really important protect the girls. My daughters were five and seven at the time. And then the third one was find humor in the darkness. I'm the, the daughter of a doctor, so that one and a nurse. So that one that one came pretty easily, thankfully. but again, it's with the, all those other elements come into play and going back to diet, nutrition, of course, movement is really important too. So that's got me to where I am today, Judith, and why I am so passionate and about being a breast health advocate and, and working in this space.

Judith Mueller 31:50

Fantastic. Thank you Ima we'll come to your book in a second as well. So couple of follow up questions on that. So you mentioned that breast cancer is not only the most diagnosed cancer in women, but is actually rising sharply with a projected 40% increase, but 2040. Why do you think we're seeing such a steep rise despite all the awareness, the pink ribbon campaigns, the screening programs? Is this a failure of medicine culture? Is this something deeper?

Emma 32:21

That's a really good question. I think there's a combination of elements that come to play when we talk about increasing risk. There's rising obesity and There's metabolic dysfunction even in young adults, you know, and you're seeing an increase in, estrogen and inflammation. I'm not popular for saying this, but alcohol consumption is hugely, hugely important. And I actually, you know, before I launched an anti-cancer brand and platform and wrote my book, I was working in the business of it was innovating actually around non-alcoholic drinks, but working in that business. And I decided that morally I couldn't work in that area anymore. as much as I, you know, I learned a lot working in, in FMCG and working in the drinks business, the beverage business, couldn't morally be who I am and stand up and talk about breast health knowing how important alcohol consumption is still in that role. So, it's, it's not a, a popular conversation for sure, and the data is still coming out, but for me, it's incredibly clear that that's hugely important. sedentary lifestyles, you know, lack of physical activity is super important for everything for chronic illness and just general body function. We talked already about endocrine disrupting chemicals. Of course. I would say as well, you know, for women it's about things like delayed childbearing fewer pregnancies, less breastfeeding. All of those come into play because there's that protective hormonal exposure. That does make a difference. But, you know, my cancer was not hormonal based. Mine was triple negative. It was environmental. I was really stressed. And when you think about chronic stress and poor sleep, that absolutely comes into play. I was in a really unhealthy relationship. I was married to a narcissistic alcoholic which is not the best combination. But cancer gave me the strength to leave him and move on and dedicate myself to, working in this space. But looking back. deeply stressed and deeply honestly, deeply unhappy. there's been recent research to say that women in particular hold on to a lot of those emotions and don't express those feelings and we hold onto to it somewhere. You know, I was a bit heartbroken as well for various reasons, and that my, when I found my breast cancer in my left breast, to me that was rather telling. So combination of things.

Judith Mueller 34:47

Interesting. What do you think the role of trauma and expressed emotions, et cetera, what is it? How does it work? I.

Emma 34:55

It's huge. I mean, we all experience life. We experience childhood. Events not just through our mind, but our bodies through our eyes. And we hold onto a lot of that trauma in our bodies. And the more and more I talk to surgeons, to medics in this space, to women who've been through breast cancer who are currently facing breast cancer. There are lots of commonalities that I see, you know, and, and we hold onto of that stress, all of that trauma in our bodies, and unless we worked through it. And it's not easy, right? It's not easy to do somatic healing. I hold onto my breath. I know at various times, even though I'm a, a breath work facilitator, I find myself, you know, breathing shallowly instead of breathing deeply. So. It's all of these things that come into play that I do feel have a big impact. Yeah, for sure.

Judith Mueller 35:44

You've just mentioned different stages of life, so childhood trauma, et cetera. Just, just generally at different ages. We've said that breast cancer is rising particularly fast for women under 50. Are there any particular, to your knowledge, any particular stages of life? You know, it could be puberty, pregnancy, perimenopause, et cetera, that are specifically critical windows that impact breast cancer risk later on.

Emma 36:11

I mean, there's correlations between, obviously between birth control, there are correlations between diet, nutrition, obesity and so forth. In, in childhood, from childhood onwards. You know, diets high in sugar, ultrapro foods, less physical activity. Children today, for the first time are facing the fact that their life expectancy is shorter for the first time ever than their parents has been. So talk a lot about health span lifespan. I think we're at this really pivotal point where in order to safeguard the future of our children and in order to help them live healthier lives for longer, we really need to be aware of these elements and help. from a young age think about sleep, think about mental stresses. I mean, the good news is, you know, my daughter's a 15 and 17. vernacular, their vocabulary around mental health is amazing. So, and their awareness, not just 'cause they're my daughters, but their awareness around stress and diet, nutrition and so forth because of channels like TikTok is higher than ever. So I think we shouldn't underestimate actually younger generations. And their ability to change and shift as they move forward. But I think we also need to think, you know, the millennials and, and Gen X, the childhoods we had were quite different. So it's the ongoing impact of environmental factors and, you know, what's available in different countries. To eat and to buy and what's available. You know, it's, when we talk about democratizing health, it's really important to be able for countries and governments and institutions for everyone to be able to afford, you know, a basic level of health and wellness that doesn't impact their susceptibility to disease.

Judith Mueller 37:57

And it's also very interesting in terms of what's available. I mean, you know, there's various ongoing debates around organic food, but let's just assume for the sake of argument, it is a superior to non-organic foods. If I go to, so having lived in uk, having well lived in Germany, I mean. I am currently in Berlin and I have branches of the three largest organic food chains each within 10 minutes walking distance from me. I mean, that's a very privileged position to be in, right? In UK it's very similar in that the major. Supermarket chains have actually adopted organic food to a large extent. But then I go to other European Union countries. I mean, some of them, especially if they have a lot of their own agriculture, they're very mountainous, et cetera. The feed tends to be better anyway. And the, the food that they're grown, so both the, say animal produce food as well as the, the locally produced vegetables, they tend to be okay. But you go to other countries and they don't even have an organic offering. You even go to the. Upmarket supermarket space or organic markets, trying to find something. And they're horrendously expensive if available at all. So there's also that dichotomy, right? But sort of sticking with children, childbirth, et cetera. So we've mentioned the effect of contraceptives. That's one thing. If the hormonally based we've previously mentioned. Breastfeeding for women, which supposedly is cancer protective, but also looking from the child's perspective because we said, look, there's so many decades down the line, they have an impact on. When you look at the gut microbiome, and again, the gut microbiome is still very early days research, but what we not know about what we. Look into these days is impacts on the gut microbiome, not just for frequent antibiotics. I mean, when I was growing up, I think I got something every year or something. Literally, people just, it was handed out like candy where I was growing up. It's hopefully a little bit different now, but it depends on the country as well. But also if you look at c-sections and formula feeding, for example. So for those who dunno, the problem with c-sections is because the baby doesn't actually pass through the natural birth channel, which normally would seed the, the skin also the mouth, and therefore the, basically the entire digestive tract from that at birth. So that already gives a disadvantage to the baby. Potentially for life. Again, we don't know exactly yet, but at the moment, the latest medical thinking is potentially for life. The same thing with formula feeding. So you do actually want, and we're gonna do another episode on that. It's a very interesting company called Booby Biome. So they basically figured out. That formula feeding isn't great because you are missing the natural immune system that the mother passes onto the child. But what they've also found is if you are pumping, so even if it's the mother's own breast milk, if you're pumping and refrigerating, you're also losing a lot of a potential. So basically they are, they're spinning out of, I think, Imperial College London. So one of the big, you know, medical research centers globally to try to figure out how can we actually repopulate that basically, so. It drops off. Well, I suppose immune system and a drop. That's the idea behind it. So I'll catch up with them, see where we're at. But that's, there's so many things that we dunno about basically just because of the way that we live now and that corporates so many aspects.

Emma 41:16

I think that's really important. Judith, when you talk about the gut microbiome, it plays a major role in estrogen metabolism, you know, and it's, about that collection of bacteria that modulates circular estrogen levels and imbalances can absolutely lead to higher estrogen reabsorption increasing breast cancer risk. And that's particularly important for hormone sensitive cancers. And any kind of dysbiosis or unhealthy microbiome is linked to chronic inflammation. That immune dysregulation and even dare I say it, progenic bacterial metabolites. So all of that may contribute to cancer development or progression. And exactly as you said, it's really important even when you are thinking about having a baby and you're having fertility conversations to be aware of gut microbiome and how that can affect not just when you are pregnant, but actually getting pregnant as well. So it, you know, studies have shown that women with breast cancer often have distinct gut and breast tissue microbiota profiles compared to healthy controls. So it's all those elements. You know, it's fiber rich diets, it's prebiotics, it, probiotics, but even sort of, you know, having fecal analysis as well, the microbiota transplants as you mentioned, are being researched at the moment for their potential to really sort of influence hormone regulation impact cancer risk.

Judith Mueller 42:47

And actually taking that one step further. So when we say microbiome, most people think about, you know, the bugs in our digestive tract as aware, but taking that further, I mean, when you look at fungal infections at parasites, I mean, I sort of personally count candida into both of that actually. The reason being, for example, when you have a parasite, it is. Similar to breast cancer, basically it is feeding off you so you can pop all the pills on the supplements that you want. There's a good chance they're actually taking or siphoning off major parts of that. And at the end of the day, I think what is vastly misunderstood, I think most women, I'm overgeneralizing here, but many women care about the the macros and how much fat and how many carbs and how many pounds to have on my hips and all the rest of it. But what you also need to know your Micronutrients are just as important because they're actually what fuels the immune system. There are various different, very complex chains on that. But suffice it to say that not only do you need to put enough in at the top, but you also need to make sure it's not eaten up by anything else. I mean, again, the thing with breast cancer and one problem, or not breast cancer, but cancer in general, one problem from cancer is that, is actually. Further feeding itself by depleting the rest of your body from the nutrients that you need. So not only is it taken up space, but it has actually taken up the things that you need getting stronger from that. So again, I'm completely oversimplifying here, but there's a many things to look into. So there was one statistic that you shared that I found really striking, which was that each mammogram may increase a premenopausal women's risk cancer by 1%, which I think is something many women will never have heard. And I'm wondering why isn't that part of the mainstream screening conversation and what real informed consent actually look like when we're talking to women in their twenties, thirties, forties?

Emma 44:45

I think that's a, a really important point because who are younger who have dense breast tissues, what that means with dense breast tissue is it's more sensitive to ionizing radiation and mammograms. Use that in small doses, of course. For perimenopausal women they have more active cell division, so that makes their DNA more vulnerable to radiation induced mutations. So really over time with repeated exposure, particularly starting at a young age or with annual screenings, there is incremental increased risk. and there was actually a study in high risk women. So women with BRCA mutation carriers and they found that repeated low dose radiation like from mammograms before age 30 was associated with increased breast cancer risk. So it's something to be aware of. It's something particularly for women who have an increased risk profile. BRCA gene carriers. It's good to be aware of it, and particularly if you have dense breast tissue as well and you know that the mammogram is not necessarily the best, most finely tuned, process to be able to identify anything with dense breasts. It's a good idea to ask for other screening to maybe have a firmex scan, to have an MRI. Ultrasound is also a good option too, but using conjunction, it's nice to combine, get a really good full picture.

Judith Mueller 46:15

So I'm thinking who is something like firmer check for? So taking a step back, you mentioned this was premenopausal or perimenopausal women that had the very active cell division.

Emma 46:26

Premenopausal women,

Judith Mueller 46:28

So basically anyone, well, up to whenever you get your menopause, which could be 37 to 52, which we learned another episode. So should you, ideally, and again, you know, we're, putting all sorts of medical disclaimers here, not medical advice, but from your point of view, if you ever wanna do mammograms, should you wait until you've had your menopause at whatever age that might be.

Emma 46:51

I can only speak from personal experience and I will never have a, a mammogram again. I had a mammogram and then I, I found my own lump. It's a really personal decision and honestly, it depends on what the healthcare system can provide to you. I think what you said is probably somewhat sensible in terms of what we're talking about with radiation and compression and so forth. but I think it's also a case of how can we. a barometer, or get the indication of what your breast health looks like from a much earlier age. And what can we all do that's proactive and preventative so that it doesn't, you know, you don't even get to a point where you are in your fifties, sixties and, and having to make that decision, which is not an easy decision. I'm always shocked though, Judith, because breast health is scary and, you know, I'm really on a mission to try and, widen up the conversation around breast health. and it always surprises me when I say, oh, but there's options. You know, you don't have to have a mammogram. 'cause obviously the compress it hurts. Nobody, nobody enjoys having a mammogram. It's uncomfortable, it's painful. It's often, you know it Yeah. All of the above. And it's scary. as with a lot of mammography, there is sometimes it's the waiting and the worrying. That and sometimes a biopsy that can turn out to be negative. Those areas are really fundamentally important when we're talking about women's health because they don't just affect the woman, they affect her friends and and, and everyone that she's supporting at this at the same time. So my, wish is that we are able to talk about breast health more that we're able to. Take positive, proactive, and preventative steps that safeguards our breast health for longer. And that we actually minimize the incidents of, breast cancer moving forwards. So all of these elements are designed with that in mind.

Judith Mueller 48:49

So if money were not an object, when would you ideally start firma check again with adjunct testing and how often would you do it and why?

Emma 49:02

Well, it's a great question. You, my daughters, they've seen me go through breast cancer. They've seen what that involves. And although they know that mine was not hormonal, it wasn't, it's not genetic they, there's still a concern. There's still a sort of worry in the back of their mind. But they're in their teens, so they have naturally lumpy breasts and their hormones are, frankly, they're all over the place. But you know, they're aware and they're cognizant. So I said, still very early days, but from their 1820s upwards, if it helps give them peace of mind, I would. Absolutely. Yeah. They're, more than welcome to go for a thermo check scan so they take responsibility for their breast health, number one. two, they see what's going on there so they can see if there's any inflammation which can be detected very young. then number three, they can do something about it.

Judith Mueller 49:52

So how often would you do it then? Every two years? Or what's a recommendation?

Emma 49:57

recommendation is every 12 months. But when you are that young, it depends on other risk factors, to be honest. It depends, you know, and that all comes out with the, within the consultation. And then when you look at the patient as a whole, what else is going on? but every year to two years would be a good, a good check.

Judith Mueller 50:17

And I guess the idea, one of the ideas of longevity is you want to have n equals one IE, your own longitudinal data. You want to see how things develop, right? So if you can get a baseline in your twenties, and again. Potential Breast cancer isn't the only thing you're seeing in these scans, and I at the moment, firmer check and my understanding is breast only. But this is a technology that can be used and actually is used for the rest of a body as well. So there's so many things you can pick up and you can actually see how things develop. So tell me about your experience when you're seeing other women going through this process. When you see, you know, patients, for example. Tell me about the kind of feedback loop that you're seeing because the ideas that we're really picking up things early, ideally before they're cancerous. Tell me about the response that you're seeing and what people are actually picking up and how quickly, for example, they can turn things around.

Emma 51:12

I think that's a really good point because. Like me in myself, you know, I thought I was super fit and healthy. I was working out all the time, but I was surviving on protein bars and you know, a bit eating too much sugar probably. But I was rel, you know, I was cancer aware again, you know how much that into it. We'll never know. And I was avoiding certain foods and so on and so forth. But I, and I didn't, I just didn't realize that I was stressed or that I had this somewhat chronic inflammation or that that was developing. back, it's easy to see, right. You know, the hallmarks were there actually. But it's sometimes when, what I hear a lot from women, it's a little bit of a wake up call and it's a wake up call that is early enough to be able to take action. You know, we are told to take vitamin D for example. We're probably the majority of people still aren't told to take the correct dose or the right dose or, you know, that works for them then test and monitor that as they move forward. Fatty acids we talk about quite a lot as well. Omegas of course. luckily I love sardines, but not everyone does,

Judith Mueller 52:27

Well, you live in Portugal, so this is the the obvious place to be for sardines, right?

Emma 52:31

Exactly. And I think what you're saying is important. You know, our environment and what's available to us day to day ha, can and should play into this in order to make it easier for everyone to maintain, levels of health and wellness. And so what I hear back, I hear that a lot from women about hormonal health and HRT, for example, synthetic HRT, which some women are on, can increase. risk of breast cancer. there are obviously bio-identical options out there. And I also, so I hear a lot about diet and nutrition and sleep and stress. Those are the main things that, you know, women who are dealing multitasking all the time, you know, working, they're traveling, all those elements.

Judith Mueller 53:19

The caregivers as well, right? Both up and down and the family. And I think that's one thing that we're often ignoring. I mean, just to, but in here I think it's. If you are chronically stressed, I mean the, term chronically stressed already tells you something, right? You don't even know what a good baseline looks like. You might not even have known that since you were, you know, at school, at pressure to perform in exams and then get into the right university and get the right grades and get the right job, and then, you know, do this, that and the other and get married, have children, build a house, like whatever situation you might have grown up in. That can actually be hugely stressful, especially societally, as a woman. There's still so much expectation of we need to put everyone else for ourselves. So rant over.

Emma 54:04

Absolutely. I remember my natural cancer doctor said to me, much do you, how much are you adrenaline fueled? How? And I thought, why is he asking me this? then in retrospect, of course, cortisol, adrenal, you know, thyroid all of those elements come into play when you talk about breast health. And like you say, it's, it's not necessarily those things that we think about. But that does hugely affect how our bodies process, how our how our methylation works, how well our livers working, how healthy our gut microbiome is. So it's, it's all those elements that come to play together.

Judith Mueller 54:42

And Ashley, in retrospect, an obvious one is running on your adrenal hormones. They're all immunosuppressant, so that makes it even easier for cancer, who's already very skilled. You know, it depends on how much people know about cancer cells, but they're actually very, very skilled at hiding from the immune system to start with, and that's why treatment in part is actually so difficult and why it needs to be individualized. But if you are. Chronically suppressing your immune system because your body's constantly fight or flight. Like it doesn't matter if something's gonna kill you five years down the line, if you constantly think there's a tiger running after you metaphorically, that's how you get to the situation. Coming back to hormone therapy, we talked about that and again, this is gonna be your personal opinion. I appreciate that, but do you think it is safe when metabolized well, or do you think we're still lacking enough personalized data to advise women confidently? Because there are various different therapies out there. Some work brilliantly for some women, but the tricky bit really is. Filtering out what works for which woman at which dose, and especially, you know, when you're starting, when you're in perimenopause, it's a bit like puberty. Your hormones are all over the place. So how do you titrate for that? How do you adjust for that? Right.

Emma 55:56

I think that's important. You know, you can start with a comprehensive hormone panel. Test your estriol, estradiol, testosterone, progesterone. SHBG. And related hormones to get that overall hormonal balance. Genetic testing of course is important. It's involved in estrogen metabolism and detoxification. The detoxification pathways are really important. we've seen an increase in 16 alpha and four of buildup in breast tissue for women who've got breast cancer. But there are tests out there, so there's urine test, blood tests for your estrogen metabolism. There's also the Dutch test, of course identify how your estrogen's being broken down via these protective pathways, versus potentially the harmful ones. And then I think there's, yes, for me it's all about getting the right tests, pushing for those tests, particularly in those times of our lives where we know there's hormone disruption, where we know that things are changing. And then there's a lot that we can do, of course, support healthy hormone detoxification with lifestyle as well. So whether, and that's always a question for women who've been through breast cancer, it can be incredibly difficult. To get the healthcare system to, pay attention or to provide you with even thought, something as simple as estrogen cream, vaginal, estrogen, which has side, you know, it is been proven to be safe. again, check with your medical team first. Of course. Even my sister, when she went to her healthcare provider in the uk when she disclosed that I'd been through breast cancer, was turned away for any type of treatment, even hormone testing. which blows my mind really. And it makes me quite cross, to be honest, because. Again, my cancer was not hereditary, it wasn't genetic and has really doesn't have anything to do with her. I was living in the US and she lives in London. So we go back to that sort of advocating for yourself, being aware, doing everything you can in terms of fiber rich diet, healthy gut microbiome, liver health, regular exercise and, and weight of course. But then also getting your tests done regularly and, and making the changes you can make and the. Supplementing where you can.

Judith Mueller 58:18

And two points on that. Again, number one, the early you start testing, and again, this is all subject per personal budget. The early you start testing, the more you know about your baseline and the more you know about your baseline long term. The easier it is to pick up hormonal changes, whether that's figuring out, look, you're going into perimenopause, you know, early, or you're going there even at a, at a decent age, let's call it. These are things you can put up on, pick up on. So it's not just about, and obviously this particular episode is very much about breast cancer, but there's so many implications, right? The body's a very complex system, so that's one point. The other point was you mentioned to your sister and your sister being denied even testing. Something like firma check seems very promising. Why hasn't the technology, and again, the technology has been around, I think since 1982, FDA, approved, et cetera, why hasn't it been more widely adopted?

Emma 59:12

I think that's a good question. You're right. FDA approved in the early eighties. I think there's a number of things and thermography is available, but for me, in terms of thermo check, it's the reliability of the robustness and the repeatability of a system that's been tested and proven by a leading breast health specialist in the uk. But there has been a lack of clinical validation in large scale trials. For example, there's regulatory skepticism, but. it's very easy for me because I've been through the healthcare system. was lucky enough to be treated in the US and I was lucky enough to be able to get whatever I wanted, but I had to pay for it. So I've seen firsthand how profitable breast cancer is, it would be remiss of me not to, point out that, you know, the oncology departments of every hospital provider across the US and beyond. Is time and time again leading the way in terms of profitability. And it scares me that there's been a lack of innovation in terms of breast health programs, the journey of breast health treatment. You know, women, I mentor and coach now they're going through the same chemotherapy treatment I went through 10 years ago. That can't be right, you know? for four, sessions every two weeks, Taxol for four sessions, then a double mastectomy. I mean, there's immunotherapy of course now, and there are treatments coming to play, but I can't ignore, I can't sit here and ignore the fact that treatment of breast health and chronic illness, sick care, is incredibly profitable. So that I believe has been a big. Factor to play for like thermography and firm and check scans because it's that early detection that plays into preventative and and proactive health that isn't currently supported by many healthcare systems globally.

Judith Mueller 1:01:12

Personal pet peeve of mine. But yeah, so that sort of brings me on to the fact that. We mentioned thermography, we mentioned IVs, we mentioned testing. A lot of these tools are still financially outta reach for most people. How do we avoid, and this might be more of a philosophical question than anything, but how do we avoid creating a two tiered model of prevention and what can we do now to make this kind of care more accessible?

Emma 1:01:39

I think that's great and I think that's something that we are working towards, I personally am working towards, I would love to democratize access to information around breast health, generally speaking. I'm actually working with a company called, who's involved with AI Companions for breast health. And so AI is powering some of that. Democratization of information and education. There are elements, you know, we talk about if you think about vitamin D, fatty acids there are ways to get some of those into your diet that are more cost effective. But it is a, it is a challenge and I, it's one that I, I think very strongly about. I would love to see Thermo check more globally available. I'd love to see a thermo check in on every corner, so you could just walk in, have your scan, get the results in the next few minutes. That would make me very happy and I love to see more insurance companies, institutions, taking up more preventative and proactive measures. Because ultimately, only is it patient centric, but it saves money. and then, and it saves costs. And when we talk about costs and we talk about healthcare, we have to think not just about the financial burden of the healthcare system. On governments, institutions, we have to think about the cost of healthcare. when someone is sick on society as a whole, you know, every woman who goes through breast cancer has breast cancer. It impacts their family, their broader family. It impacts their friends, it impacts their company and in as well as the society which they're involved. So it's really, really key to be able to think about what we do and, and plan for healthcare in a way that tackles a sustainable and long-term solution with the patient at Theta.

Judith Mueller 1:03:29

So let's actually look at some figures there. So question number one is from the patient's perspective, also from the healthcare system's perspective. How long does a scan take and how much does it cost? And then compare that to if you have any estimates of direct and indirect costs of breast cancer, for example,

Emma 1:03:49

That's a very good question. I mean,

Judith Mueller 1:03:52

I.

Emma 1:03:53

breast cancer cost me thousands, I would say. I obviously, I threw everything at it, but tens and tens of thousands. And I was lucky enough to be able to afford to do that. And that's partly why I want to give back and access to some of these elements that, that I feel very strongly made a big difference to me. A THR check scan, for example, is 280 pounds. That's the same as other scans available on a private healthcare insurance. It would be amazing to be able to scan everyone for free,

Judith Mueller 1:04:24

how long does it take? So if you do, you know, you go for your check in, as you said, we wanna have a firmer check in every corner can do the any lunch. How long does it take?

Emma 1:04:34

Yes. Relatively, I mean, very quick, very easy. There are certain protocols you need to follow ahead of time, but yes, it's 20, 30 minutes all in really with the, yeah.

Judith Mueller 1:04:45

It's very doable. Alright, so finally looking back. If you could whisper something into the ear of 25-year-old Emma, and that could be 25-year-old Emma at the time she was 25, and or now not to scare her, but to lovingly empower her, which essentially is what you've done with your book, right? What would you say?

Emma 1:05:10

I think that's a really good question. I would say live brave. And obviously, that's the title of, of my book. And I would say that because I think lot of my health journey courage has underpinned a lot of the decisions I've made that have ended up having a positive impact on my life. Have they been easy decisions to make? No, they haven't. But I think that being curious and being for knowledge and information and then surrounding yourself by people who can lift you up and give you that courage to take the decisions, to necessarily go the easy path. You know, and I say that with a lot of empathy when you get a diagnosis. You know, the ground falls away from under you and you're, you have nowhere to turn to. You don't know anything about the fact you've just qualified for the cancer Olympics which is, you know, the next, the coming series of, of treatments and so forth. you don't dunno who to turn to. But I think if somehow you can summon some and some bravery that can. can help a lot. And I think that's what I carry with me now, whether that's yeah, in, in all, in all, all areas of my life. So I would say to my 20 something year old self, be brave. Trust yourself. Don't be afraid of taking the hard pass, but, but you know, have that courage

Judith Mueller 1:06:38

Fair enough. You ready for some curve ball questions?

Emma 1:06:42

always.

Judith Mueller 1:06:44

Alright, so what are the three things that you wish your colleagues and or clients would know that you believe would really move the needle in your field?

Emma 1:06:55

I think number one, small things make a big difference. You know, you win small to win big and it's those daily changes, those shifts, adoption of some healthy habits that make a big difference. So that starts with putting ourselves first as women. That's often hard to do, but it's that belief that those small changes can make a big difference. and that's for body, mind, and spirit across the board. So I think I'm gonna use that for one, two, and three. Judith,

Judith Mueller 1:07:26

Fair enough.

Emma 1:07:28

because it Covers everything.

Judith Mueller 1:07:29

If you could have a gigantic billboard anywhere with anything on it, what would it say and why?

Emma 1:07:36

Honestly, I think it would go back to the live brave point because

Judith Mueller 1:07:39

I.

Emma 1:07:39

in an unhealthy relationship. If I'd left that relationship earlier, would it have made a difference to My health trajectory? I don't know. but I do know that a lot more people now think about mental health. They think about you know, the environment around them in different ways there are a lot more tools out there for as to all lean on and have support us through life's challenges. So I think that, it feeds back into that being brave enough to ask for help. I was surprised, you know, my darkest hours, although it's not easy to be vulnerable, it's not easy to ask for help. I was surprised at how many people put their hand up and wanted to help. I talk about this a little bit, which is be the CEO of your cancer journey. And I say that because there are a lot of people who want to help and many, many people can be well-meaning. That they have to have a job to do. And if you are able to, in a very nice way, ask them to do a specific job that is beneficial, then ultimately it, it makes a much bigger difference to your day to day.

Judith Mueller 1:08:47

So directing the headless chicken in a way, right, to make them feel better in a way because they're useful and then they're also useful to you, which actually helps you. Okay. That's very interesting. What is a book or books you've given the most as a gift and why? Or alternatively, what are one to three books that have greatly influenced your life and why?

Emma 1:09:12

There is a book I use in a marketing context, which is from Good to Great. I'm trying to remember the title, Judith. escapes me. I think that I'm going to put a few different topics out there. There's obviously, there's a lot from a work context and from a marketing strategy perspective or an entrepreneurship perspective that help massively. But I think that trying to learn, learning from amazing. Mentors can be in the form of people you talk with on a regular basis. It can also be in the form of, of reading books and taking strength and, advice from those. I think I would always say learn from. Other people, particularly women who are juggling lots of things. Obviously Michelle Obama is incredible. Oprah is incredible in many, many ways, and there are lots of doctors who've now written incredibly impactful books. Dr. Naomi Potter is one of those, for example, with Davina McCall. Very, very interesting in terms of breaking down barriers and, dispelling myths and putting things out there into the zeitgeist that then become much more talked about and accepted. So I think whenever someone writes a book that is quite disruptive, always draws me to it because I think there's something there that is game changing. Not just on an individual basis, but in terms of how as a si society we grow and change and adapt.

Judith Mueller 1:10:44

Fantastic. What. Purchase of a hundred dollars pounds, euros, or less, has most positively impacted your life in the last two to three years, or say in recent memory?

Emma 1:10:57

That's a really easy one for me. It's my teapot. I'm under. Hundred is definitely my teapot. love tea. I am from Yorkshire originally and you can take the girl outta Yorkshire, but she will always bring her tea with her. and Yorkshire Tea is one of my favorites. But of course being mindful of, the impact of microplastics and the fact that tea bags haven't always been particularly healthy. I like loose tea and I like to brew tea myself, but I also love the medicinal properties of tea. So go beyond English breakfast. Although that's a favorite green tea, matcha tea, hugely beneficial. In terms of health benefits I was in Marquess recently and I picked up a lot of amazing tea there. So I like mixing. I know quite a few good herbalists as well who make fantastic teas that are, you know, for different times of the day. So game changer for me is my teapot.

Judith Mueller 1:11:55

Have you tried in duck shit tea? Are you familiar with that?

Emma 1:12:00

I know what you mean, but I haven't tried it yet. Have you? Is it any good?

Judith Mueller 1:12:04

I have some in my cupboard I haven't tried yet, but the story behind it, I think it was a Chinese tea, and I actually dunno where it came from, but it was a tea that was particularly good and the locals didn't want it to be exported, so they called it, I mean, it's got nothing to do with duck shit, but they're called a duck shit tea. So that. It didn't sound very appealing and therefore wasn't exported so they could keep their own produce, which I think is hilarious. But yeah, worth asking. So speaking of purchases what would that purchase be if we upped the barrier to thousands dollars? Euros?

Emma 1:12:36

That is Easy to answer as well because I have an amazing blanket. I used to have an infrared sauna. I then moved back to Europe from the US sadly, my sauna there. And because my apartment's smaller than my house in the US was, I have a blanket and I can travel with it as well. So what's amazing about it is it's infrared red light and it's also PEMF and I can adjust those settings. So depending on how I feel, I can adjust those settings and have yeah. if I'm feeling under the weather, of course, then I alter the settings on that. It's also got, three types of stone embedded in it as well. So it's got tourmaline and jade. So those three stones help help as well. So I can get on it, because my daughters are often on my blanket, that is one thing I love the most and I like my compression. Leggings as well. usually there's one daughter occupying that station of biohacking in my house. But my idea, you know, was to health, wellness and health easy for me and to fit it into my everyday life, a little better. So in the absence of having a great longevity clinic downstairs, I've now got my blanket and my compression tights in my departments.

Judith Mueller 1:14:00

There's a very easy solution to that. You need to get a third gadget. So basically what happened is when I was a teenager and I had two cats growing up, and this was before my finals at school, so I was, I basically sending my parents away on holiday for like, I don't know, a couple weeks and just, just get outta the house. So it was me and the cats. And do you know how cats always like to lie on whatever it is you're paying attention to a book or something? So I would, at any one time have three books open and the cats would shift position from one book to the other. Basically, the one I was reading, there would be one of them would move from where she was sitting. To the other one, and then I could, basically, that's when I would switch subject whether I wanted to or not. So maybe just get a third gadget, but do you have any brand recommendations both for the infrared blanket and the lymph boots?

Emma 1:14:49

I mean, I like higher dose generally speaking in terms of products. but there are quite a few out there. There's also, Puleo is a cheaper. Version for compression legs. And obviously it's great to buy when things are on sale. So I waited and, made the purchase knowing what I wanted. I waited and made the purchase when there was a special offer going on. So there are different, different options out there. I would when you're looking for something like compression tights, you look at the strength and the flexibility in terms of the settings you can have, like with my blanket, it's great that I can cover myself, myself in blankets and get really, really hot and have an infrared sauna, or I can focus on the red light instead. And of course, with things like that, I only do up to 20 minutes of red light. And then I just make sure that my settings are all designed specifically for me in that moment.

Judith Mueller 1:15:43

Unless your daughters are changing it. Fair enough. So. What is one of the best or most worthwhile investments you've ever made? And that could be time, energy, money.

Emma 1:15:54

I mean, my infrared sauna was a, very good investment and that meant that I was investing my In me. So, it, you know, a double impact I think always say to people particularly when you're thinking about buying something, you are designing your home. It's a William Morris quote, which is have nothing in your home that you neither deemed to be beautiful nor no to be useful. So an infrared sauna was, and, and of course I know they're expensive. I was. Very thankful. My friends sort of rallied together and made me buy one, which was good. but it wasn't just about the infrared itself. It was about taking that moment of time for me from everyday life for that moment of peace and quietness. And so that's what I would recommend. And the same, I think, goes. Whether you are going through cancer or whether you are just in a hectic day to day, it's about finding those moments of peace and finding your happy place. I also a friend, very kindly lent me her house out by the beach. So being there looking at water, we all know that's hugely healing. That was beneficial. And then the golf course, that was an investment of course, to invest in. In playing golf. And obviously, you know, pros and cons around being on a golf course and all of the pesticides, et cetera, involved with golf. I wouldn't necessarily recommend it ordinarily I lived on a golf course, so take that for, what you will. But back onto a golf course in between treatment. Was super important. And it was a time where I could be nothing except a golfer. So I wasn't a mom, I wasn't a breast cancer patient. I wasn't a employee. I was just a golfer. No. So no matter how, you know, bizarre, I looked swinging the golf club with my port, which was good. It made me swing slow more slowly. it was that time for me and that time that I could get away from it all. And I think. after all, that's the biggest and best investment we can make in ourselves. And I think body, mind, and spirit that has the biggest impact. Ultimately we can find those moments of peace amongst the chaos and reconnect with ourselves. Then, then life becomes a little bit more straightforward.

Judith Mueller 1:18:15

Fair enough. What is an unusual habit on absurd thing that you love?

Emma 1:18:21

Well, I try and jump in cold water wherever I can, that does surprise people sometimes. Although if you're in a city like Copenhagen, it's a little bit more accepted and accounted for. Easier where I live, I can jump in the ocean easily, and for me, that's the whole element of grounding. If I can't jump in the ocean, they'll take my shoes off and walk on. the grass, obviously being careful if it's a park, that it's, it's clean enough. But that can sometimes surprise people. That's an unusual habit that people, you know, you get a sort of second glance when you're doing things like that sometimes. I believe for me it's one of those rituals that helped me ground myself and it helps me regulate on a cellular level and a hormonal level in a way that I feel is hugely beneficial for me.

Judith Mueller 1:19:14

Fantastic. Who would be a perfect sidekick in your work? So this could be someone past or present real or imagined.

Emma 1:19:23

Well, I'm really lucky at the moment, you know, we've got people like Julia Bradbury, we've got Lizelle all coming to For scanning. So they are very much involved holistically in terms of functional health and wellness. And they're strong advocates for breast health, proactive and preventative measures for breast health. So feel very fortunate that a lot of women are now, joining the conversation. And so I think that it's a team effort and it's about the community generally. Not just one voice, but many voices and we're stronger together in that sense. So that to me is hugely humbling and hugely beneficial. So the more we can talk about breast health, the better, the more we can be aware of proactive preventative of things that we can do. And the younger that we, you know, the, the, the younger that we take ownership of our breast health, the more aware we are of our overall health. So for me, it's about sharing the knowledge with other people and passing it on to future generations.

Judith Mueller 1:20:23

So staying with your work, when is, or what are the plans for expanding? Something like Fema check to other predominantly female cancers like cervical cancers, ovarian cancers, which I guess would also be covered by the technology.

Emma 1:20:41

We at the moment is specializing in breast health. It's such a large market globally, and it's so important globally. It's also easy to see signs of inflammation and infection, for example, early. And as I mentioned, you, your breast is a barometer for the rest of your body. I would love to be able to expand into other areas of the body and, you know, male cancers as well. Testicular cancer, for example. We are very, very early days on that front. And so at the moment we've been laser focused on breast health, but who's to say, you know, that there's definitely potential out there and definitely opportunity to expand beyond breast health.

Judith Mueller 1:21:20

Fantastic. And finally, where can people find out more about your work? You've mentioned your book, et cetera. Where else can people find you?

Emma 1:21:28

Exactly. I think it's Emma Thornton Live, brave on Instagram and LinkedIn and then Thermo Check Health for thermography. And we have a, a number of different clinics across Europe, with thermography services provided by Thermo Check. so Spain, Copenhagen, Oxfordshire as well. Lisbon soon coming online. So. We are growing and expanding and being more accessible which is great.

Judith Mueller 1:21:54

Fantastic. Emma, thank you so much for coming on

Emma 1:21:56

Thank you, Judith. I really appreciate it.

1:22:04

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