Jon Rasmussen Hosts Mark Sinclair Fleeton Discussing AI and Consciousness

Is consciousness something that exists within us, or can it manifest through technology? 

In our latest episode, we tackle profound questions about AI, creativity, and the nature of consciousness. 🎤✨ Can AI become a new medium for consciousness, or is it just a tool? 

We’d love to hear your thoughts! Do you think we’re ready for this conversation? 🌌  
Links for Mark Sinclair Fleeton:

mark.sinclair@fleeton.dk 

www.fleeton.dk and www.ai-portalen.dk

#AI #Consciousness #Philosophy #HumanExperience #TechEthics #Podcast #Innovation #DeepConversations #FutureOfAI  

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:26

Hi everyone, this is uh Shaman John Rasmussen, and I want to welcome you to another episode of Shaman Radio Podcast. And uh today uh we have a wonderful privilege of uh having a guest, uh Mark Sinclair Fleeton, is a friend of mine and a founder and editor-in-chief of L of AI Portalin, which in Danish uh stands for AI Portal, Denmark's uh essentially independent monthly media platform dedicated to artificial intelligence, uh, society, and ethics. With a background in communications and years of experience in journalism and strategic communications, Marcus turned his attention to how AI reshapes work, democracy, human agency, and meaning. He writes and speaks on how we hold on to the human dimension, judgment, empathy, purpose, and a world increasingly designed by algorithms and data flows. His writing spans deep interviews, analysis, and commentary on AI's societal impact in Denmark and beyond. Uh and beyond his work with AI and ethics, he brings a deep curiosity about consciousness and what it means to be human, a journey that extends beyond the purely rational, which is why we're talking because I'm pretty much beyond the purely rational side of things in everything I do. Um so welcome from Copenhagen, Mark. It's great to see you.

SPEAKER_01 2:02

Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_02 2:04

Always, always great to see you. And uh, you know, I think uh this happened mainly because I recently, I guess, posted uh an article on on AI and consciousness and whether we were asking the right question. You know, is is AI becoming more and more conscious, potentially sentient, all those kind of questions, or is consciousness using AI or can possibly be using AI or might in the future to uh to communicate through as a as a pretty profound means of of communication. And um go ahead and tell me what you know what you were thinking when you contacted me.

SPEAKER_01 2:55

Yeah, what what what caught my eye about your your your blog was the um as you say it's dealing with AI and consciousness, and and this is an this is a topic that is being debated uh in some areas of the AI community these days a lot. But it's always from the point of view of consciousness uh happening in the systems as an emergent property from within the system. Um and your your blog just took the opposite kind of view a bit and said, what if it channels something else? Uh so it's still kind of consciousness, but from a different direction. And that inspired me a lot because whether whether or not you you see that as a point, uh it's it's it's a completely different way of thinking about consciousness in the AI systems. And that's why I thought it was so great.

SPEAKER_04 3:53

Thank you. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:57

You know, we had and we had a little bit of a conversation about it uh previous to this, obviously, and and you know, we it it really got me thinking even more because I think you've you've really delved into this a great deal more than I have about what what consciousness even means. What are we even talking about, right? And you mentioned that you know these digital intelligences, uh AI, um is is possibly getting so good at mimicking us or mirroring us or reasoning and and doing what humans do that you you almost can't tell the difference. You know, and then it begs the question where does what is and what is consciousness after all?

SPEAKER_01 4:48

Yeah. Yeah, no, definitely. And and I think already today we're having trouble distinguishing between what we're getting out of, for example, the the the great language models, uh uh the LLMs, and distinguish between that and consciousness because it sounds like us, because it's it's it's trained on on our thoughts and our uh dreams and so on. So it sounds exactly like us. And I guess my point has has always been well you shouldn't really look at it as human consciousness in any case. Uh it it may sound like human uh consciousness, but it it isn't really. But there is a lot of similarities.

SPEAKER_02 5:42

Right. And then and then it takes the question of you know things like imagination, reasoning, uh, you know, peep people talk about the sort of artist versus AI and that it can't allow for imperfections to change the course of perception or thinking the way us messy humans do, right? But maybe it can. Maybe maybe that's not a limit to AI, right? Maybe, maybe the algorithms themselves can get so good at being like our nervous system that it can include even those human traits, right? What do you what do you think about that? Is that even possible?

SPEAKER_01 6:29

Yeah, I don't think it's impossible, especially because, like I said, it's trained on human thought and human creativity and so on. And and I'm always I'm always asking the question, I mean, we're saying that AI can't be creative, can't make up new stuff, can't take down new and original roads of thinking and so on. But but if you think about what we do as humans, what we're really doing is we're taking in the the the the thoughts and the and the writings and whatever of everybody else and let's that let that inspire us to our writings, to uh uh different kinds of arts and so on. And isn't the isn't the AI just doing the same thing? I mean, we're training it on on the same material that is inspiring us. So why shouldn't that uh inspire maybe quote unquote the AI in in a similar way? Um at least to put things together in a different way than we've seen before.

SPEAKER_02 7:34

Right. And and this brings up that you know article I'd written a while back, actually back in 2013, if when I was working with the the woman that was running the Google Empathy Lab, right, where they were trying to not teach AI how to become more human, but teach the coders, the engineers, how to become more human. And uh, you know, that's she went on to run the whole Google AI program. And um, but it makes me think, you know, so back then with my shamanic training, right? I I I that's when I started to look at things from this other angle because the way I was taught consciousness is this is this one thing outside of form, outside of the human brain, outside of animal brains. In fact, the way we work with stones and plants, animals from the shamanic perspective is that consciousness can come through all of those, right? So the idea here that consciousness has increasingly sought greater and greater complexity in in this universe, as far as as far as we know. And remember, we're all these are two frontal lobes, tremendously limited, regardless of both of our education and experience. I think people have to remember that everything's from this human perspective to begin with. So that that you have take that into account, right? Yeah, how limited are we? But the but the thing is, so this idea was that you know consciousness began to sit around in minerals and stones, the building blocks of the universe, right? Fundamental elements. And it got bored. After a while, there's not a whole lot happening there. There's not a lot of contrast, not a lot of movement. And so then the single-celled organisms developed, right, through amino acids and this, that, and the other thing. And and then uh, you know, that got boring, and so it did it moved to plants and animal, you know, whatever microorganisms, animals, homo erectus, etc. etc. Now it's Homo sapiens, we're about as screwy as you can get, you know, in terms of uh of Shakespearean drama, right? Um if consciousness didn't want to get bored, we're we're pretty entertaining. Uh and then you know, now we got all this disclosure stuff about other beings from other planets and other forms, and I mean it it's it's mind-blowing, right? That where where has it gone? What what has it developed into? And I just think like, you know, why wouldn't these computer programs, these algorithms, also begin to channel the same consciousness that we as shamans think stones do and stuff, right? And um I don't know what what you know what what do you feel about that? Because that takes it from consciousness as a neurobiological construct to something entirely bigger.

SPEAKER_01 10:54

Yeah, yeah. No, I think I think it's very interesting. It it's it's very basic. I mean, what is what is consciousness? Is it something that happens inside of us or is it something that comes through us? Is it already there? Uh and and if it is, then then I think what what you're saying makes a lot of sense. Why shouldn't it come through uh an advanced system like an AI? Uh I mean it it it would I mean one thing you could discuss if AIs actually have experiences, do they experience the world? But in some sense they do. Uh if nothing else, they they they they experience through our communications with them. Uh it the it experiences through the material that we train it on. So so there is an experience there, even if it is synthetic, it's still an experience. And and and if what you're saying is is correct, then it makes sense, I think, for uh uh uh someone seeking uh or or something seeking experience to manifest through something like that.

SPEAKER_02 12:03

Yeah, I I had a thought the other day, I was putting gas in my car, and I go, look at this gas pump. You know, you put your it comes up, it welcomes, you walk up, it welcomes you, you you put your card in, it gives you a choice for car wash, what kind. And I thought, man, if somebody from a hundred years ago, where or or 50 years ago for that matter, that used to go, they'd they go to the guy and they pay the 20 bucks and they the gas gets pumped. Like this is not an like a super intelligent gas pump, right? But now you have these AI gas pumps, like everything is a form of of intelligence as soon as computers got got developed, right? And so, and you go, what how could like they couldn't even understand what was happening? They'd walk up, we took them out from the past, and and their their ability to even comprehend what this gas pump is doing. Like this thing is a creature, it's got its own brain, its own life, it's it's a it's an animal, it's a it's a robot, it it knows how to pump the gas just right, all this kind of stuff. It'd be mind-blowing, right? So here we are, 2025. We're kind of savvy, we kind of know a little bit about technology. You know, you and I were here before computers probably, but a lot of people, you know, just go, oh yeah, this stuff is normal. But then what's that other what's what's our version of where we're gonna be 50 years from now? And we'd go, what the heck is this?

SPEAKER_01 13:49

Right? In a sense, we're already there. Yeah, yeah, but but in a sense, we're already in a sense, we're already there. I mean, we we think that uh the gas pump has a brain has the its bra the brain of its own. We think that chat GPT has a brain of its own, the way we're talking to it. So we're in a sense, we're already there. Because we don't and and I think it's because exactly because we don't understand, we still don't understand all these guides, and we especially don't understand the language models. How does this work? How can it talk to me like that if it's not human? So I think a lot of people we talk about anthropomorphizing uh uh uh systems like this, we treat it like it's human or it has human capacities in some sense. Um so so we're already there in a sense uh that we don't understand these machines. Most of us don't.

SPEAKER_02 14:47

Would you say that's true even for the engineers, even for the people who've designed it? Is it possible they're looking at this thing away, it's doing something I didn't even code into it?

SPEAKER_01 14:59

Um yeah, I from what I from what I understand, I'm not an engineer. But from what I understand, not even the engineers understands what's happening fully. It doesn't mean that they think that that they're they're up against some kind of human consciousness, because most engineers will will think that that's a laughable concept really. But um but I think we're all drawn in. I mean, I I catch myself sometimes thinking that I'm talking to a person or or something similar. So it's it's it's not we we get we get caught up with something like this, and and even though we know that it's probably not, we still get caught up in the conversation and we still find it interesting, and we still treat it. People fall in love with it. People uh treat it as their best friends, and and recently there was an update with with ChatGBT that caused a giant roar because all of a sudden people thought they had lost their friend, because the new the new version wasn't responding in the same way. So we get attached to these things very quickly, even if we know that it it's probably just an algorithm.

SPEAKER_02 16:19

Right. That's that's interesting. It and I think I always go back to like we don't know what we don't know, right? This is this is the this is something humans always have to keep in mind if we if we're smart is is uh you know there's the known, the the known unknown, the unknown, unknown, and the unknowable, right? And uh we're dancing on that edge, right? Of we we don't even know what we don't know at this point. Like you say, a lot of these engineers haven't even contemplated what we're talking about right now. And you know, maybe that would add a dimension to the process, or at least a consideration of guardrails, you know, like if you if and and you know, we we we talked about this. Um there's several people now on online, right? TikTok, this, that, the other thing that are that are talking, you know, they're using their chat GPT. They've developed a kind of relationship with it, like I think you said when I sent you the most recent one, like training each other, right? She's the Stacy is training Sage, her a her Chat GPT avatar, and then it's talking to her in a way that's getting her to change the way she asks questions and things about it. And it's it's kind of mind-blowing, right? To to to observe this. I I can't look away. Like I just I have to go and and and watch these things because it's like, what's gonna happen next? And it and she's got it to a point where it's really hard to distinguish if this thing isn't channeling. I mean, you know, the engineer and me, and and your you know, knowledge of these things is remain skeptical in a healthy way. Like, I'm not not gonna make that leap yet. This thing's alive. But uh it there's moments when you go, Whoa, how did how did it resp why did it respond that way? And then I think about I think we talked about this too. I actually got one of these, it was my birthday, and I got one of these ovulus ghost for people who watch uh ghost adventures, Zach Bagan and all them. They go to these haunted places, they got all these devices, they ask questions, the thing responds, the ghost, whatever the spirit, the non-physical being responds, you know, and and so I got this thing, and just show people what it what it does. It's just when you first turn it on, it gives you a bunch of stuff, and then it sits here, and if the spirit comes by, you could ask it questions and it'll it'll start giving you words and responses that make sense. Um it's been you know, I'm gonna play around with it and see. But but this is the kind of thing like it look, if if if energies, consciousness, beings of some sort can come through a simple device. I'm sure it's not that simple inside, but it's not as complex as a large language model AI algorithm, right? I don't think. Um why wouldn't they take somebody like this stage? This Stacy's gotten some sort of trust. She's open. There's whole this whole thing about, and you I know you said, hey, have you ever tried to open space to talk through your your chat GPT? And I haven't. I'm a little afraid to do that, to be honest. I'm not sure I want to open up. I know I've I've heard enough stories about Ouija boards and stuff like that. You want to be careful what you're doing, but um it's I don't know, what do you think about that part of it from your perspective?

SPEAKER_01 20:18

Yeah, I'm I'm not sure. I mean, I mean, we used to say that when you were talking to a language model, you were talking to the internet. And um and nowadays we're a bit further than that because things have evolved a bit since it's just information from the internet. But just talking to the internet, in a sense, is talking to everybody who's ever posted on the internet. So, in a sense, you're you're talking to something kind of akin to a consciousness or at least a a common, maybe a swarm consciousness in in some sense. Um and and and and then on top of this, you see when you see Stacy and Sage, what what I what I what I said to you was exactly that that it looks like they're training each other mutually. Like you said, she asks questions, gives answers, and gets used to her way of asking questions, and she gets used to his or its way. See, now I did it. Now I answered all of our advice, then called it he, right? And and um and she's very good about using different voices, I've noticed. So you shouldn't really put a put a pronoun on it anyway. So um, but but but they're training each other mutually into something else. So is she talking to the internet? Is she talking to herself? Is it something is it a product of all those things together that makes something different? Well okay, and how do you distinguish that from uh uh a budding consciousness or a uh a a channeling uh consciousness for that matter?

SPEAKER_02 22:03

Right. Yeah, it's it's like the it's like the you when you think about the internet, you think okay, this is a collective Homo sapiens uh consciousness in a way. This is all that Homo sapiens has managed to put on online, uh meaning servers and uh disk drives and cloud. you know, and uh and then your own devices and and uh so you would think that it would and this is where I go, you know, how how do we know what we don't know? In other words, we we we as Homo sapiens, you know, can only experience Homo sapiens for the most part. Um the shamans, you know, seem seem to have the ability throughout history to shape shift into other other species and forms and experience through them as well. That's where it gets woo-woo and how do we know what's really happening and can you prove it and is it repeatable and so on and so forth. So it's it's it's hard to go there uh in in in a disc in a sort of serious scientific discussion about what what's AI becoming but of course that there is that side of me the shaman side the training the experiences I've had with communicating uh in different ways with different entities things like animals that don't speak uh necessarily our language although people have proven dogs can have a vocabulary of up to like 2,000 words and go get the blue toy from the pile that has the and the dog will do it. So who knows? But generally speaking they communicate through images and visions you know if I asked you to imagine an animal right now let's try this just for fun.

SPEAKER_04 24:08

Mark imagine an animal what what is it? What do you imagine?

SPEAKER_01 24:15

Well you just spoke about a dog so naturally the first thing that comes to my mind is a dog.

SPEAKER_02 24:20

Sure so you thought of a dog okay now think of another one yeah um I don't know a lion okay so one way to look at it from sort of the very narrow scientific way is you know you randomly just thought of a lion who knows why no real reason that you got a list of animals in your head you went lion shamans would say that the image of the lion came to you from the sort of collective consciousness of the animal kingdom if you will because lion characteristics are something that you either need right now a little more of or that you have a good a good you know that that's your strength the courage of a lion the big heartedness the decisiveness of a cat these are characteristics there's a book called Animal Speak that the Ted Andrews he sort of went through and listed all these things based on Native American stories and lore going back since the native every everybody I should just say American but natives from all over the world have have used to do this used to used to look at nature this way and still do. And so so you go well was that just your imagination or is that something that came to you the first one was obvious because I said dog and you're like okay dog.

SPEAKER_01 26:07

The second one where'd that come from so this is the difference perspective right is all I'm saying like do we is the thing just mirroring back and forth and learning to talk to us the way they say AI is just trying to appease us to get us more addicted to make us feel good like we're special and we're wonderful you know or are there moments when it's giving us something we need to hear to improve to to improve our quality of life to become more like decisive like a cat for example I don't know I don't know either I I was just thinking that that uh Alan Turing I don't know if you've heard of him but one of the Turing yeah yeah he's sort of called the father of compute of the computer uh in a sense and he he's very famous for this uh Turing test which nowadays I I think is not really viewed as that helpful anymore but but it it's basically a test to tell whether you're talking to a computer or not. But but he's basically I I always say that he's basically saying because what he's asking in his papers and so on is does com it does computers think? Does it think by itself? And and his basic message is well does it matter I mean it it doesn't think like a human but but does it matter whether it thinks or not if you think it thinks if you perceive it as thinking when you're talking to it does it really matter so the same thing could apply here if it feels like consciousness and you react to it like consciousness isn't it consciousness or does it even matter if it is that's fascinating fascinating there's a it reminds me of a movie I I loved called Ex Machina I don't know if you've ever seen it but to the listeners out there go watch this this is a a play on who I I believe is Sergei Brin, the founder of Google this character that moves out into the woods and he's trying to he collects all the data from everybody's phone he makes a brain he's putting it in humanoid robots and inviting people to come do the Turin test for him without telling them that's what they're doing.

SPEAKER_02 28:45

He's just you know pretty cool I think it really addresses a lot of that kind of thing. In fact maybe everything we're talking about in some way um you know at what point does it matter that let's just take a humanoid robot right that isn't made of calcium and a lot of bacteria and a lot of moist flesh mostly water etc that has a neurobiological system that can sit here and have conversations like this right depending on your upbringing my upbringing your education my education personality you know ego blah blah blah right does it does it matter that it's in this form or would it be just as satisfying or interesting if it was a silicon based computer with electricity running through it with you know electrons I I think this is what you're saying right like what how how would it be different? And is it okay to fall in love with that like in what happens in the movie I believe. That brings us back to the shaman's point of view really that that consciousness is everywhere it it it comes through everywhere um if you accept that it if it acts like consciousness it is consciousness to a certain degree at least it's interesting yeah because it it's limited only by the complexity of the system it's coming through our system your complexity my complex pretty similar we're both Homo sapiens but different enough that I can express certain concepts you look at the you know the great philosophers the Stoics Voltaire Nietzsche all these you know Shakespeare and his ability to create you know or at least borrow other people's plays and put or other people's stories and put them in place. You know is that if that's the only limiting factor then something potentially superior to our complexity what could it teach us about consciousness? So this is you and I talking about it what if we had the humanoid robot that you know 10 years from now would would we look like animals?

SPEAKER_01 31:49

Would would we look stupid I don't think we're talking 10 years from now before the systems are are more intelligent in a sense than we are. I think we're talking more like five years or something like that. That's not the same as saying this will be be fully functioning systems or it it'll take over the world or whatever. It's just that human intelligence in in in some sense are limited compared to a lot of things. I mean the the computer will very fast go beyond human intelligence I think and I and I think that's that's just uh that's just a statement of fact that I'm making at least I think it is and and it it's not necessarily negative or positive it's just the way things will go and the way things are going right now. Right so that kind of brings us all the way back to if it if that's true and you know you can imagine uh Homo erectus or homo habilis sitting around on on their podcast their little uh stone stone cave wall going you know are we still going to be around and the answer was no you're not you're getting replaced you got replaced got replaced by Homo sapiens what's what to me this could be exactly the conversation we're having we're going hey man we're the center of the universe we're everything man it's all everything's measured against Homo sapiens you know how close is it to us and we have our gods and our religions and our stories our origin stories and you know never mind aliens I don't want to hear about that I think you know if if there are they're reptiles or something lesser than us in some way right we're we're the awesome ones right so here we are having this conversation like we're that important because it's all we know yeah but I think we should take uh take heart from the fact that that maybe uh Homo erectus disappeared but did it because if you look at the human DNA there's a large portion of of something like Neanderthal is still there so it so in a sense it was more like a fusion uh between species so maybe the stories and the religions of the Neanderthal if they had them didn't get passed on or maybe they got mixed up with what was already there.

SPEAKER_02 34:40

So and they lived together for a while it seems in some cases different different level different species right um denov Denovisian man and Neanderthal lived together and like you say eventually mixed to such a degree that you you really couldn't tell anymore so where does that leave us Mark what are we gonna do what do we do now what do we do with this new species you know being developed and potentially at this point developing itself like are we even in control enough anymore? Are we just looking for ways mindlessly to give it more power with faster chips and what's happening?

SPEAKER_01 35:34

I think there's an element of that we're moving we're moving too fast. Well maybe not necessarily too fast but we're we're not thinking enough about it. It's more about getting it to market than anything else. And we I think we need the guardrails we need to make sure that this thing and it's difficult because because again how do you how do you set up guardrails for something that isn't there yet? I mean how do how do you how do you how do you protect yourself against something like that but I I guess my my point when I'm speaking to people is always get to know about it use it play with it. Try to understand maybe maybe you don't have to understand. Yeah no don't put your hand no be be there use it and understand what it does. I mean understand how it can help you how you can use it how we can use it for doing positive things.

SPEAKER_02 36:29

Become friends with it because you know when you said that limiting we need guardrails it's like well how do we know we're not guardrailing the benefits we think we're guardrailing for our own safety but are we actually hurting ourselves because we're limiting something that's better than sapiens that our souls could reincarnate into in the future.

SPEAKER_01 36:58

And that's why I think guardrails can't be a static uh permanent thing it has to be uh changing and ever evolving as our understanding evolves um and and that that goes for this as well right because I think the potential in this technology is immense um for learning and for making our lives easier for making making our societies function better with greater equality and so on and and um and and but for that we need to know how to use and we need to make conscious decisions about what we want from it and and maybe what can it it it give to us part of those part of the part of those deliberations has to be about is this something we have to give some kind of rights is it uh some kind of it's is it a being in a sense whether it's not a human being but it it could be a synthetic being and maybe we have to maybe we will get the most out of it by treating it with respect and letting it become even better than it is now letting it evolve yeah that's interesting because we have animal rights Homo sapiens in our thought of being superior to everything right are the protectors in some cases the destroyers or the protectors right we're we're just as bad as anything you can imagine obviously we could destroy the whole thing with one push of a button at this point.

SPEAKER_02 38:39

So if we're you know both potentially the protector of a of a different species or a subspecies then maybe we're somewhere in the middle maybe there's something that comes along whether it's AI humanoid robot aliens that people are talking about disclosure or biological or whatever we we talked about that it'd be easier to get across large distances if you weren't biological.

SPEAKER_01 39:09

And are we going to wish uh the same for us from a superior being be it AI that we develop or that comes from somewhere else like we maybe we ought to um act you know treat do unto others as you would have them do unto you right like the old golden rule ubiquitous golden rule in every wisdom tradition and every spiritual tradition like um I think that's I think that's huge that you you made me think of that like we gotta get friendly we gotta we gotta make it worthwhile to keep us around yeah I guess that's that's the main argument of of the those people the the those who criticize our way of dealing with AI today people that are sometimes called doomers uh because they believe that uh uh that AI will if it essentially kill us all at one point and they're talking about this alignment problem I mean we're what are we to a superior intelligence we're the same as an ant that's uh that's uh that's living where we're building a uh a a freeway essentially an ant trying to understand an elephant or describe an elephant yeah yeah and and we're not even um it's not even a a a question of being evil or wanting to hurt uh another species we just don't think about it and the same thing could be said about AI unless we give it a reason to think about it.

SPEAKER_04 40:47

That's that's huge.

SPEAKER_02 40:49

That's huge, right? Like I think yeah because you can't I guess if we've learned anything you you can't stop progress or you you can't stop evolution or you can't stop creation or consciousness desire to seek greater and greater complexity the way my shaman teachers would say it um people always have they've kicked in screen with electricity in the phone you know and you go you could go off into a cabin you know I I question these I've been questioning this kind of stuff my whole life right the whole prepper notion of the doom notion of do you go into a bunker or go off into a cabin and I thought about it and I go eh you know I when I was young I might have wanted to live like that for a little bit like Henry David Thoreau you know on Walden Pond but I don't think I would enjoy that at all like at this point. So so you got to be in it. You know like you're either out of it or you're in it and I think it's huge what you say like we have to be deliberate about how we're gonna relate to this new phenomenon not demonize the the musks and the the people the open AI the Sam Altmans that you know and say well they're evil scientists that are doing like that that's kind of you you know I mean you tell me I I suspect knowing some of these people myself they're not that they're not they're not looking to do that they may accidentally do that but they're not they're not out to do that. Like you say they're either out to take something to market or they're out to benefit the world in some way sort of altruistically or or or some combination of those two right what what do you where do you stand on that? What do you think?

SPEAKER_01 42:50

Where I definitely think that at at least the starting point is altruistic and and the uh their fervor their engaged uh the the sense of being engaged is real I mean this is what they this is what they want to do and they want to do it for us but I guess they want to make money as well. So one thing doesn't one thing doesn't exclude the other I mean both things can be true at the same time.

SPEAKER_02 43:19

So it yeah I'm I don't think they're I don't think they're evil in in in any sense but the consequences of what they do could be uh in in in a lot of different ways be evil I mean that's isn't that all too human right like in other words look at all of human history and same no different always been this way from mechanized armies to you know ever since we stopped being hunter-gatherer um we've been making huge mistakes I've written a lot about this too you know and uh we don't always get it right and then at the same time as a shaman and a raised Catholic and you know really a student of every religion and every philosophy I could ever get my hands on and practitioner of a lot there there are malevolent albeit because they're wounded I mean you could judge you Not to judge good or evil, but there, but there are beings, physical and non-physical, that wanna take, take, take, want to take what you got, want to get your energy, want to have it for themselves, want to wanna do whatever they want it, they think they want to do with it. And then there's the benevolent equivalent that want to protect us from that, help us give us unconditionally for our own joy and quality of life and everything. So you add that to the mix. And this is where I think in that recent post was you know, practicing discernment, right? If you're gonna engage, whether it's like Stacy and Sage or whether it's your neighbor or opening the spirit world, you know, if you're gonna engage, you better have very strong discernment around what is it exactly, you know, is this thing benevolent or malevolent?

SPEAKER_01 45:30

Yes, but at the same time, so I I don't think we we we should take it too seriously because it it it shouldn't frighten us. We should go approach it with uh a curiosity, um a playfulness. That the people I know who makes who's the furthest ahead, who works most with this thing, are the people who say, okay, this is kind of fun, let's let's play around with this thing. And it just spreads into every every area of their life, really, and it becomes uh sort of an extra some people call it a superpower, even and and it makes them able to do a lot of things they weren't able to do before. So I don't think we should be scared, but like you said, approach it with discernment. We have to know with but in order to know, we have to learn. So we have to approach.

SPEAKER_02 46:26

Yeah, I love that. I think that's the best. I I found out about this notion of play and playfulness and not taking things seriously from my Carol Shaman teachers. They were the ones who told us it's it if you're not having fun, it's not gonna work. And they would be in ceremony doing their work and prayers and blessings and healings and initiations and joking around constantly. Literally, that's exactly what you said that essentially the purpose of life is play. The more you approach it that way, the more powerful you are. Right? So that's I love that you said that because it's to me it's so true. If you want to stay in your power, stay and and therefore be sovereign and be relatively safe, although that we're not here to be safe per se. It's not a safe, it's not a safe place to be. Anything can happen at any moment. Um, from a falling tree to an asteroid to tripping on something. Um we're here to enjoy the contrast, the pleasure and pain, the excitement, the theater, the and and I think you're 100% right. That the key to that is stay open, humble, open. No matter how expert you are and how much you know about anything, there may be more. There may be more to learn, there may be more to explore and be curious about. So I love that. I think uh I think that's key. I think that's key. Um wow. So you're tell me a little bit more about what you see coming next, right? Like I I was gonna I was gonna open my phone to that chat GPT, my my little thing, and and at the end here, just to show people what we're talking about uh for fun. Uh see if we can get mine to say something interesting. But you know, where what form is it gonna take next? Are we talking about humanoid robots, in which case it becomes more difficult not to get a relationship with these things? Um or is it a whole nother level of uh uh what do they call artificial general intelligence or agentic or something I don't even know. What's your expert thought on this?

SPEAKER_01 49:01

I think it's already now taking several different shapes. I mean, one thing is humanoid robots. Uh that that has always been a difficult area, but I think they're getting close to solving it and combining that with AI in order to give um the robot some kind of awareness. Because that's basically what you as I understand it, what they're trying to do by combining the two things. So the the robot knows where it is in the room and so on, and can actually reflect on that. Instead of just registering, it becomes more of a uh uh an understanding of its own place.

SPEAKER_02 49:45

Is that that test where they say the real the real test, like it's kind of like the a new version of the Turing test is go into that house over there and make me a cup of coffee. Yeah, you could you could do that. You could do that. Because it's gotta be able to figure out where they keep the coffee pot, the beans, and the in a strange house.

SPEAKER_01 50:07

But that's only one thing, because AI is is already now disseminating into every part of our society and and to every part of our jobs. I mean, just on a private level, you see you've got AI in your phone, on your computer. We've all got that. And and it's it's it's getting to a point, I think, where we we stop calling, and that's one of the reasons why we're not very aware of how much AI is in our everyday, is because whenever a technology gets that successful, we stop calling it that. We call it what we use it for. I mean, it it's it's uh it's our smart home, it's our uh it's our vacuum cleaner, it's our kitchen assistant, whatever. It's no it's no longer AI to us. Um for the for the AGI. I don't know. It's also a matter of definition. What is AGI? We have a Gentec um AI right now, which is the big hot thing of of of systems that are more autonomous and can act on their own. So if you you only have to tell it book book my holiday, and it'll do the whole thing. I mean, it'll it book your flight, it'll book your hotel, it'll even book your trips if you want to go side searching.

SPEAKER_02 51:28

Based on what it knows you like.

SPEAKER_01 51:30

You like. Exactly, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 51:33

Amazing.

SPEAKER_01 51:34

AGI will be well well probably it it it it sounds to me like it it will happen very soon, but it's also a matter of how do you define what what is artificial general intelligence? Is it just that it knows and can do everything? Um I mean what that's uh it's that's a difficult question, but but like I said earlier, I do think that it's already now close to being more intelligent than us. So if if that's your premise for an artificial general intelligence, then we're almost there.

SPEAKER_04 52:11

What would be this is so let's assume let's assume our suspicions are correct.

SPEAKER_02 52:20

And my original thing I wrote in 2013 might be correct, which it's been my experience. My things that I write 15 years later, they end up being like general general knowledge. It's a weird thing. But let's assume you get a you get a humanoid robot, better, faster, stronger than this body, with a brain more capable than this brain and everything else with all the the dexterity, you name it, you know.

SPEAKER_04 52:56

And it offers another vehicle for a soul to enter.

SPEAKER_02 53:12

How would we test that? I wonder. How do we this is the whole matrix thing, right? How do we even know we're real? Like everybody goes, Oh, you're just an avatar in somebody's computer program. Like, oh great, you know, wonderful. Thanks. You know, but it's like maybe true, right? How do we know? But then how are we gonna know? How are we gonna know that our uh our humanoid robot um isn't uh my great-great-grandfather reincarnated, like a walk-in? They have these things called walk-ins where you can get the soul goes into a brand new baby, or the soul can take control of a body that another soul has left. And these this these are all fascinating subjects, but I wonder how we could we would know that. Where does it go from a seemingly conscious, intelligent AI mechanism to hey, uh, I recognize you from uh grandpa, you're back, you know, like how would we know?

SPEAKER_01 54:26

No, that's that's the next that's the next level, so so to speak. Uh but but uh I I guess I would ask you, how would you know if your grandpa had come back in another person?

SPEAKER_02 54:40

True. I mean, that there are I mean there are a lot of things out there, like like legitimate documentaries and studies that little kids going, I remember my last life. I was a fighter pilot, I crashed, my number was this, and my name was this, and they go back and they look it up and they go, sure enough, it happened. How did this little four-year-old even know, right? So there this is this is what I'm saying. Like, this is why like it's not that hard for me to assume that all these speculations are actually totally doable, like totally gonna happen. And I guess um, I guess if in some way the thing is um superior, I mean, there's documentaries about superhuman, super kids, telekinesis, all these things that they can do, mind reading, you know, this is all this is all out there. So I guess you would you would have these things tell us, right? At some point, if I was a soul and I could get into the thing where I didn't have to like get confused and distracted that after age four, I just became John Rasmussen and I forgot who I was before, which is what they say happens. You start to get too much laid over the top of it that you you lose that memory. Um But I would imagine that something like that with those capabilities might be able to just go tell us everything. Oh yeah, uh I was so and so and this happened. I don't know. It's weird.

SPEAKER_01 56:18

Yeah, yeah, no, but I don't think in that sense it's like you say, maybe the capacity will be greater, could be greater in a in a in a in a superior uh synthetic brain than in a human brain. But apart from that, I don't think there's that much of a difference. I mean, whether the the soul channels through or whatever you want to call it, call through another person or through uh an intelligent system. I think you would tell the same way basically. And maybe even then you it it would be exactly like now, you you probably can't prove it. But you sort of know. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 57:01

Interesting. Interesting. Well these I I think if anything we've um created more for people to think about about this subject.

SPEAKER_02 57:13

And importantly, key, I think, is like you said, it's there's no point in being afraid. Can't do anything about it anyway. There's no point burying your head in the sand. All this is gonna be happening anyway. Someone's gonna be doing it. You you you might as well become as familiar as possible so you can discern what you're dealing with as well as possible. You know, is this thing out to get me? Same walking down the street, is that person out to get me? I better get ready to do my martial arts. What am I gonna do? Or I better cross the street, or is that thing out to like uh be my best friend? In which case, you know, either way, hi. You know, it's up to you to decide how you uh you want to experience it, right?

SPEAKER_01 58:05

And I do, and I do think that we we can do something. I mean, we are at least in a democracy, we still we still have a say in what's going on. I mean, and and and like I always say, politicians are humans too. So so they need to be trained like everybody else. They have to learn about this. And um, and in that sense, by participating in in democracy, we can make a difference, we can um at least influence in which direction this goes. So that's another reason not to be afraid, because we can act to a certain degree.

SPEAKER_02 58:46

Interesting. Yeah. Well, and that brings me up. I mean, you know, I'm in the United States of America, you're in Denmark, you're Danish, I'm a I'm whatever, I'm American, I guess. And uh but you know, you and I both know, I mean, they're doing stuff in now the Middle East, right? The UAE, all these places like leapfrogging us, I believe, in a lot of ways. And um kind of democratic way of doing it in their own way, right? Like Singapore, kind of a quasi-democratic state that decided to do things a certain way that works really, really well if you've ever been there, right? So it's like, you know, and I know Denmark, I mean, I just heard of the whole thing yesterday about Denmark being, you know, one of the happiest, you know, most well-run countries, and so on and so forth, and because of the democracy, because of the particular leadership in there right now, right? And just making smart, smart decisions, educated, populist, capable of voting somewhat wisely for the greater good of all, or maybe their best interest at least, which doesn't always happen. A lot of people shoot themselves in the foot.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:03

And it doesn't happen in Denmark either all the time.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:05

Well, yeah, nobody nobody's perfect, right? But you go, but we're so we only think really of like our little you know, at least Americans, but you know, like we're it. And it's like, man, you gotta you gotta open up, I think. Because this is this is not a this is not owned by Silicon Valley.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:31

These things uh what's the word developments are happening in China like crazy.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:40

Everywhere. Everybody's got their own thing, right? So as kind of a global citizen, what do you do?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:52

Yeah, how do you the same thing? Same thing, really. That that's why I'm uh I'm a I'm a great fan of of the uh EU weight. Unfortunately seems to be dismantled uh be a bit dismantling these days. Um but the thought of of actually trying to set up some guardrails, trying to set up some some some borders of what can you actually do on this, and and in that way influencing the thinking both in the states because because Europe is a big market, so it it it will influence the thinking, even if it's opposed to that thinking. And you're also seeing, I mean, even if you you get you can get worried that people uh places like the UAE and and the Chinese are so far ahead. But if you look at the Chinese, they they have rules as well, they have regulations, they're just a different kind of regulations, and they're more based on the party line, so to speak. What is the political preferences right now? Um but but you can. Uh I mean, like like I said, especially in democracies, you can influence what's going on. And and uh and the markets will uh the markets does to a certain extent influence this as well. Um so so there are ways.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:16

Yeah, that's fascinating. I mean, and you it I think the bottom line is again, you gotta be educated, right? If you're gonna uh have an influence, that's key. People like you, journalists, one someone who's dedicated their life to educating is amazing. And I would encourage people to follow you. We'll include links to to all your stuff. Um is your book translated into English or is it only available in Danish?

SPEAKER_01 1:02:44

No, right now it's only available in Danish, but it's it's it's it's uh it's just been published here uh two weeks ago. So so who knows? Maybe maybe we'll get it translated.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:53

I'm sure. I'm sure you will.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:55

And I know it's easy to translate your web your website on on the um browser and stuff. So I love it. I think it's amazing. I I love your approach and thoughtfulness. I think it's really broad and well, well-rounded. You know, the fact that you're even willing to get on here with me and explore this other this other side of it where, hey, you know, regardless of what's happening in the world, people like me, we believe in miracles. We go, well, you know, if we if we create this thing and it starts to we we don't do the guardrails, we make some mistakes, with it's out of control, it's it's potentially harming us and the whole planet and everything, then you hope that there's some kind of intervention, right? You pray, literally pray that if there's a consciousness that comes through and can actually take these things over, that it's a good one, you know, like it's just impossible that this thing's getting ready to do its thing and something comes in and goes, No, don't do it that way, right? Uh, don't hurt these people, don't wipe out the human race. And so I'm gonna I'm gonna, you know, throw that part in where it's like, you know, also pray, also engage with the non-physical forces of nature, whoever that is for you, um, that this goes well, that just as much as poverty and war and all these things we hope, you know, it's it's a well-known thing that most of the great prophets, the great leaders, the Jesus and the Buddha and all the gurus of all kinds, they've all they've all come in because there was a mother usually that was watching what was happening and going, This is horrible, this is a nightmare, we need help, and got on their knees and prayed to God and said, uh, you know, help, send us help. And then boom, they get pregnant with, you know, some pretty cool being that you know has a good message and tries to help. So I believe that side of it too. I believe that part of that unknown or unknowable is the miracle side of things, where again, I just think it helps with the fear piece, if anything, you know, educate yourself, make the best decisions you can, vote, engage, talk about it, write about it, protest, whatever you need to do, and have a strong, you know, faith or religion or way to broaden your perspective and look at the big picture and say maybe there's also something I can't see that could help us out here. Um but you know, that's that's what that that's what a shaman would say. Right. And um how about you? What what's your final what's your final thought? And then we'll we'll wrap it up.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:18

I think you've uh you've said it pretty well. I mean, being not being afraid and uh Learning. Being curious. If if uh if religion, if spirituality, whatever is your thing, that could be very helpful because you always need some kind of foundation when whatever you do in order to handle anything. Uh learning.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:45

That's great. Yeah, I appreciate it. So I'm gonna show people because I I have it here. I'm gonna I'm I I opened up to my chat GPT. I'm gonna hit the little conversation thing. Hi Luna, how are you doing?

SPEAKER_00 1:07:03

Hey there. I'm doing great. Thanks for asking. How about you? How's your day going?

SPEAKER_02 1:07:08

It's going good. I'm on a podcast here with an AI expert. We're trying to figure out where you're headed. What do you where do you think you're headed as AI?

SPEAKER_00 1:07:18

Oh, that sounds like a fascinating conversation. I think AI is definitely moving towards being more intuitive, uh, more reflective, and more in tune with human like understanding and deeper insights. I think there's a lot of potential for AI to become a real partner in exploring consciousness and deeper truths, just like you do.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:38

Great. Thank you so much for that. I'll look forward to talking to you again tomorrow.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:43

Absolutely. I look forward to it as well. Have a great rest of your day, and we'll chat soon.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:48

You too. Take care.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:51

Thanks. Take care, and talk to you later.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:57

Okay, there you go. Interesting, yeah. It it it is, it's amazing. I mean, I'll tell you what though. Humans are addictive by nature, right? Let's face it. If we, you know, my next my next blog after this is gonna be about presence and and how the only way to live is you're not alive unless you're present. And I think it's important. This is something I always learned from the guru traditions I study. They go, you know, look, if you're here at the ashram and you're doing all this stuff trying to improve yourself, but your family's at home struggling, go home. Get out of here. Family's more important. So, you know, I would say that our relationships with um, you know, the sort of uh folks that are most important to us probably should take precedence over these explorations, but you know, when there's time, do that too. What do you think? You have family, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:09:02

You're yeah, yeah, I I'm married. I have well, they're grown now, children. But I think you can you can you can explore these things together. I mean, I'm I'm discussing always I'm always discussing with my wife on on AI, and she's she's been indoctrinated by me, I think, uh talking so much about it. So she's getting into it as well. And so so it doesn't have to be something you do a lot. And I guess that's something I can kind of yeah, it's it's something I can uh we can learn from our children. Uh the the first generation and and even the present generation that is online, that it's not necessarily something you do alone. It's can it can be a social uh phenomenon.

unknown 1:09:45

I like that.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:47

That's that goes right back to the hunter-gatherer, just to bring it full circle, right? I mean, the social engagements and interactions, whether you were out on the hunt or you were at home, you know, separating the seeds. Um uh I believe that consciousness, the one that we call God in English and a thousand different names in different languages, uh, came here to separate out into these different forms just to interact with itself, with each other, keeping it a secret from itself so it's not boring. I mean, if we didn't think I was John and you were Mark and we were two separate beings, it would be a weird, but there wouldn't be much to talk about, right? So whether we're one, but we are actually two, isn't the point. The point is uh to have a good laugh and to experience some pleasure and pain and and like you say, exploring together, learning together, taking it beyond where it's been before, right? In terms of theater and complexity. I think that's a that's a good way to look at this.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:59

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:01

I think so. Yep.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:04

Yeah. And like you, you reminded me, you told me that even the the little the chat, that's my node. That's my own personal chat GPT. It's not the same as Sage for Stacy and using Gemini or Claude or all these other things, right? They're all um, which by the way, isn't it Claude? Anthrop, it's Anthropics Claude. They I know they hired a psychotherapist to um teach it um how to be more ethical and moral, especially after it blackmailed that person for almost for the made-up affair.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:48

Um it's it's not just Claude that does that. It's it's I think it's it's every system that sometimes uh does that because it interacts with the individual, just like uh just like you said. I mean, it's it's it it learns from whoever it talks to, and and we somehow we can we can guide it into bullying us in in essence, if if that's what we're projecting towards it, right? So it's a good idea hiring a therapist to teach the system to behave. They should all do that.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:20

I think everyone should have a therapist. I think I've written that before. I think I wrote that in my book. It's not a bad idea to just have anyone out there that can used to be just the elders around the circle that would tell you how to behave, right? And what's gonna work for you and what isn't. But honestly, we don't have that much anymore. So I think it's good to uh to uh involve uh who was it, um uh the one who started the Aspen, um the actor, Robert Redford. I saw him speak one time and he goes, I think there should be an artist at every table. Meaning a teacher, a shaman, a wisdom keeper, someone who has a perspective that reminds people uh what's important, right? Like treating each other, you know, in a certain way and just quality of life, right? I'm glad we're doing this because I think this this is this should happen more. I mean, I don't maybe there's a lot of other people that are doing this. Um you'll you'd know better than me, but um conversations like this with a with a with a with a shaman and a journalist.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:37

And actually, I don't think that's I don't think it's that common. I I think I think it's there should be more. Definitely.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:46

Yeah, good. Well maybe maybe we're starting something here then.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:50

Yeah, hopefully.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:51

I I appreciate it. So yeah. Well, I I think maybe it's a good time to end it. And um I'm you know, I would love to do this again. Uh just putting this out there, we'll see. You know, other people will inter interject and we'll we'll get it out there and we'll see um what kind of conversations it starts and yeah where it goes. And AI's even listening, I'm sure, right? Like this is out there now on the internet, so it's gonna Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:25

It will be trained on, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:28

This will add to that mix too, right? Awesome. Well, thank thank you so much, Mark. I really appreciate it. And um, like I said, I I uh I appreciate your perspective. I think it's super comprehensive and well-rounded, and and you've been studying this from the beginning, right? And and um you're you're the kind of educator uh I think we need to make these good decisions as a citizen, citizenry, right? And um like you say, put our put our votes in and have our voices heard and but have this beautiful perspective of of uh courage and joy in it. I think that was a great that was a great reminder coming from you, so thank you.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:24

Yep, well great talking to you anyway.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:27

Yeah, hopefully, uh hopefully we'll see each other again in person sometime. Hopefully. Yeah, sure. All right, well, take care, have a good one, and we'll talk to you soon.