Preston Zeller - AI in Faith

keywords

Preston Zeller, AI, spirituality, grief, faith, technology, Psalmlog, biblical guidance, personal growth, spiritual wellness

summary

In this conversation, Jon Rasmussen speaks with Preston Zeller, a tech founder and award-winning filmmaker, about his journey through grief, spirituality, and the intersection of technology and faith. They discuss the importance of introspection, the role of AI in spiritual growth, and the complexities of belief systems. Preston shares insights on navigating grief through art, the power of belief and action, and the necessity of understanding one's spiritual enemy. The conversation culminates in reflections on death, salvation, and the broader implications of faith in today's world.

Preston's links:

Follow me on Linkedin

https://zellerhaus.com

Get the Psalmlog App for Apple or Google

takeaways

• Preston Zeller combines art and technology to explore spirituality.
• Grief can be processed through creative expression.
• Introspection is vital for personal growth and societal improvement.
• AI can enhance understanding of biblical teachings.
• Belief requires action, not just acknowledgment.
• Spiritual warfare is a real and complex battle.
• Understanding different belief systems strengthens one's faith.
• The afterlife may offer grace to those who never had the chance to choose.
• Technology can be a tool for spiritual growth, not a hindrance.
• Community and connection are essential in spiritual journeys.

Sound Bites

• "The Bible has all the answers."
• "You have to study your enemy."
• "We all fall. We all fail."

Chapters

00:00
Introduction to Preston Zeller

01:53
The Journey of Art and Technology

06:22
Navigating Grief Through Art

11:09
Spiritual Background and Intellectual Curiosity

15:40
Faith, Understanding, and Action

19:08
The Power of Belief and Jesus' Authority

26:25
Spiritual Warfare and Personal Power

30:09
Understanding Your Enemy

34:37
The Duality of Existence

39:50
Transactional Faith and Last-Minute Salvation

46:31
God's Justice and Mercy

48:44
The Role of Technology in Faith

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:01

Hey, welcome to another episode. And I uh I have a very special guest today. I'm really excited about this. His name's Preston Zeller. And uh welcome Preston. Thank you so much for uh taking the time out today to share with uh with our audience. And um, you know, I want to just give people a little background here. You're a you're just kind of uh in a nutshell of a faith tech founder, award-winning documentary filmmaker, uh growth executive who bridges high growth software strategies with spiritual wellness innovation. Um you're the founder of Somlog, uh, an AI-powered biblical guidance app helping believers access scripture-based wisdom for real life challenges. With 15 plus years uh scaling high-tech growth companies, um, including a cloud guru and ZoomInfo, you now pioneer responsible AI integration and ministry, uh a space where 57% of Christians express skepticism about technology. You're also an award-winning documentary filmmaker. Your film, Art of Grieving, chronicles your year of painting 365 works following your brother's sudden death from a fentanyl overdose. Uh, the film has reached audiences in 40 plus countries, used in educational curriculum, available in international libraries, and has won multiple festival awards. So thank you again for coming on. I really appreciate all the work you're doing, your service to humanity, and uh I think we're gonna have a wonderful conversation about these important topics. Like you just start by telling, you know, telling telling us a little bit about what got you, what made you, what, you know, what made you end up doing all this amazing work? Where how'd you start?

SPEAKER_02 2:00

Yeah, thanks for that intro as well. Um well, you know, I've been an artist my whole life, and art's been always a uh tool for me to be uh reflective, introspective. Um, I think it just naturally turned into mainly through music and then painting, and um as a singer-songwriter, of course I'd write lyrics and started out as just like poetry and then and then I, you know, kind of got no more formal songwriting. Um but yeah, I mean, uh, you know, somewhere in the mix of that too, I realized that I have a very uh I have a really really good combination of like a technical mindset and then also this really abstract thinking, creative and all that. And so as I um I started my career in marketing, I was actually originally um in film and the business side of film, but then went into marketing and kind of like around 2010, so really early days of uh a lot of web like SaaS tools that were coming online and the ability to measure and automate and all these kind of things. And yeah, eventually ended up kind of like you know, I was in this mode of raising a family, um, still doing that, of course, but early on, raising a family and you know, climbing a corporate ladder, just proving myself for you know a variety of reasons, and that all got pretty derailed by um my brother passing away. So this is almost seven years ago now, and you know, of course, that led me into what does that mean for me, processing grief, all that kind of stuff. So, you know, I put myself into this uh really intensive art project, um, grief project to really want to chronicle that experience in the early days and then understand what that meant. That led to even more things, uh, of course, the documentary, um doing grief commission paintings. Then, you know, I continued on the executive world to some degree and eventually, you know, helping sell a couple companies. But I think in the mix of that with with AI, uh you know, I've always looked at, you know, what what's the potential for at least for me, my creative skills and my technical skills to overlap for, you know, a bigger impact. And so when AI started getting, I think some of the capabilities of it started to become more clear. I mean, most people don't realize AI has been around for decades, you know, in various capacities. It's just like the uh accessibility of it has uh of course uh expanded tremendously and like seems to be somewhat exponential right now. But I started to ask myself probably mid-last year, I'm like, what could I really do with this? And yeah, that's so part of that led into this notion of journaling, but the uh journaling in a faith-based niche, so not just like broad scope journaling, uh knowing that Christians oftentimes keep prayer journals, reflective journals, or want to, don't know how to. But starting with this notion that like the people who do journal, they never look at their old journals, or they'll maybe like pick it up every now and then and read an old one. But otherwise, you accumulate it because it's a reminder of the work you've done, but you don't get those insights. So, you know, I've uh used AI to analyze large data sets and whatnot. I'm like, oh, that's a massive, awesome data set that you could probably get a ton out of if you were able to catalog it. And so it started with that notion, that's what led into Psalm log, and then it's evolved from there. So, you know, I think to to sum all that up though, I mean it's it's really my I'm because I'm this introspective person, and I I think we could benefit, you know, humanity is being more introspective, um and and looking at the things we experience, especially the the difficult and hard and and really nasty things as opportunities to grow. If we you could do that more, um then you know, I think we could maybe have a better uh society. But it's it I'm I'm not trying to be too altruistic about it. It's really like you know, for people curious about scripture and how that applies to them, that's a big question that people have and oftentimes struggle at getting to the to the root of it. Yeah. So so, anyways, yeah, very diverse uh background for sure.

SPEAKER_00 6:43

That even I've struggled at times with well, you know, why yeah, no, it's cool because it's it's it's not uncommon from my perspective. I share very similar story in a way, of you know, background in tech, trying to do the do the thing, do the jobs, always an artist, always into that side of things, um, the spiritual side of things, the whole so I I love that and you know it is very challenging because it's it is you know very broad base, but I really love that you you know approach the the Bible particularly this way, because you know, I've always heard, and and I think a lot of people know this, that the Bible has all the answers. Like, you know, there's there's there's thousands of books in libraries, self-help and wisdom, and you know, countless um traditions and teachings, from Stoicism to you know, other spiritual practices, even shamanism, which is kind of an open system that sort of covers all of it in a way, um very from a very primal, primal viewpoint. But um, but when it comes to these to these scriptures and these wisdom teachings, um, you know, I've always heard that. Hey, just read the Bible. You know, there's people that have memorized the Bible for this reason, and it's it's an amazing, that's an amazing thing to do and to really understand it. And I know, you know, I have friends that have looked at the translations and even tried to like figure out is was this translated in a certain way? All that's great because because I believe it, it's true in my in my experience that um you can get the answers. But man, it's hard if you just pick up the Bible going, where does it what does it say about this kind of a relationship issue, you know? And and it's just amazing that you've been able to use AI to take such a profound work, a profound book, um, collection of of wisdom, and um, and and make it possible to use in this way for people's, you know, quality of life and the power of their prayer and the and their answers to their problems. So I applaud you for that. Where did you where do you did you grow up? Where did your family grow up? You and your you have one brother or did did you have more siblings?

SPEAKER_02 9:23

Yeah, I had a brother and a sister growing up. So uh older brother, younger sister, we were where was that? Yeah, I was born in Southern California in uh Newport Beach, but kind of first half my life was uh in Sacramento area. And then uh kind of tail end of elementary school through you know to adulthood, it was in back in Southern California. So um, yeah, I grew up there. Um, you know, I the it's funny, the the whole uh technical and also you know, kind of creative skill set, that's that's really kind of how my parents are. And my siblings didn't quite get this big, I guess, mix that I did for whatever reason. But my dad was really kind of a finance guy, he did real estate finance, real estate investing later on. Uh my mom did um, you know, kind of high-end interior design, uh, a lot for homes, but then like a you know, some apartments, stuff like that. But um the the mix of that those two mentalities is it's it's just strange. I I took it for granted for a while, but we're all we're all delve into yeah, something super technical. I I could go from like a branding session to a coding session within the same sitting, and that's just I guess the way my brain functions. The more you meet people, they're usually staying in one of those. Great to have those gifts, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:02

Tell me, were you raised in in church in a church or how were you raised with in terms of spirituality and religious?

SPEAKER_02 11:09

Yeah, good question. I mean, my mom was definitely the spiritual uh head of our household. Um I think my my dad loves Jesus, but uh has I think a harder time of letting go to past hurts. And so he wasn't and he didn't have really much anything modeled for him either. So he you know, he grew up um in Florida and a bit, you know, pretty poor. So was uh I think was to some degree always kind of running from that, you know, wanting a better life for us. Um but we went to evangelical churches growing up and you know, on and off, but some of the churches we went to were very um uh seeker friendly, I'd say. And the I I was actually very kind of I'd say junior high, maybe even before that too. I really wanted to understand the intellectual side of it, and it seemed like that was hard to get at, as if the the school ministries wouldn't go there. And maybe that maybe that was just that was just how that's how those ministries are, and I I think maybe to some degree that is today, but I I I just craved it and eventually uh found myself in learning about a lot of like philosophy, you know, Kant and Kierkegaard and stuff like that, where those guys get way out there. They they're even very hard, very hard to understand what the heck they're talking about sometimes. Um, but I I started to realize, okay, well, what's over here, what's over here, what's over here. Um, and then college, I think I really kind of morally walked away from anything scriptural in the sense that I just kind of did what I wanted. And in the you know, in the back of my mind, I somewhat still call would have called myself a Christian, but I just still didn't have a foundation. You know, when you when you go, when someone tells you like you're a sinner in need of a savior, you go, okay, well, what does that even mean? Right. Why am I a sinner? What is sin? What does a savior mean? What am I being saved from? Right. All these kind of questions that maybe they were answered and it just went over my head. But I I was like I didn't have a good foundation um going into that. And it's not to say my parents didn't try, but ultimately it took me a while. I had my prodigal experience.

SPEAKER_00 13:48

You know, I I I want to just mention that I appreciate that because I'm I'm very similar to I believe in all all of the all of the traditions, the way I was raised, everything I studied, you know, I've been able to kind of bridge it all together and make sense out of it. And um and I I I firmly believe in faith, right? Which is, you know, you you you do a thing whether you understand it or not. Okay. I accept Jesus Christ as my personal savior, whether I understand what it means to be a sinner and what grace means and why he died on the cross, etc. Fine. It's it's heart, right? I feel it. I feel the love. I love Jesus. I feel that love. I feel the appreciation for God giving, you know, his only son to die for our sins. And like, okay, I get that grace, I get mercy, I get that I can be a sinner, but you know, I'm unconditionally loved by God and I'm saved in that sense, right? And um, but at the same time, you know, we we also have a mind, okay. And depending on how how you know, sort of intellectually curious a person is, and there's there's varying degrees of of all of this, right? You know, the it's gotta be whole when when I think of holistic, I think of both. I think of the art above the mind, but I really believe the mind has to get with the program. Yeah, yeah, ultimately. And so everything you're saying, you know, makes me think of that. That I don't think it's a bad thing to both uh declare that you're Christian because simply accepting you simply are voice, I accept Jesus Christ as my personal savior. And then also try to figure out well, how you know how am I supposed to live? What how do I think? What do I do? Because I can't, I've always thought it's that's great, maybe that is enough to get into heaven to say it. And that's all I gotta do. And I can sin and I can do things and I can be mentally ill, I could do all kinds of things, and I'm still gonna make it because that's the grace of God and Jesus. But did his teachings also mean something? Like when he said, pray this way, our father, who are you know, in Aramaic, Aboom, Dishmaya, Nit Kadashmach, whatever, you know. Did was there a reason he taught us these things? Are we supposed to love our neighbor? Are we supposed to do all the things he taught? Are we supposed to follow the teachings as well, which is a very mind-oriented thing? I gotta understand it if I'm gonna follow it, right? And and it's what I and and your psalm log app, which I think is amazing, um kind of speaks to that. You know, hey, I can sit back, declare myself Christian, say I believe, and then don't you know, just don't do like just be lazy, don't do anything else. Yeah, or even read the Bible, ask the questions, try to live that way. What do you like? Tell me if you think that's if you agree or disagree with your view of that.

SPEAKER_02 17:16

Because I'm even though you know even the word believe, and I don't remember what the you know Greek or um Aramaic word for it is, but it it um requires actions belief that has action behind it. So it's like it's okay, let's it says even even the demons believe and shudder at who Jesus is, they know who he is. That's why they killed him. Of course, they didn't they didn't know what that would do, uh, because that's their hubris, but even the demons believe and will bow to Jesus. It's even uh you know, go if you go read the story of where he goes to the guy in chains who's been cast out of the town. The one of the demons, because it says I am legion, for we are many, right, says, I know who you are, what do you intend to do to me? Don't destroy me. Cat, you know, cast me out into those pigs over there, cast us out into those pigs. So even the the demon within the guy who's demon-possessed is like, Don't, you know, don't do ill things to me. Cat, you know, put me over here. What do you want with me? So, anyways, all that being said, it's like, yeah, the knowledge thing is that's just like a piece of it, right? But then Paul says, be prepared to have a good defense of your faith, um, or good reason for your faith. And um explain it. So, yeah, I would agree with you. It's it's like, you know, there's no there's no knowledge prerequisite. And I and I think, you know, I've boiled it down to this more um succinctly as of late, which is just that like the the biggest difference between like what Jesus taught in Christianity and basically everything else is like, do you believe, you know, do you think you can save yourself, or do you recognize that the actual save savior that you need is something that you can't even do? You know, you can't live you can't live a perfect life. Um, you're not gonna go die a death that we deserve. And yet you have really you think about the profunity of the one who created you came in the form of his creation to then live the perfect exemplary life, but then got all the the ill things that we should and do deserve because of the way that we live, not because of the way he lived.

SPEAKER_00 19:44

Right.

SPEAKER_02 19:45

Anyways, there's a there's a lot in there.

SPEAKER_00 19:47

No, I love it, you know, and and I'll tell you something. Um I spent a lot of time, you know, I was raised Catholic, you know, and and uh and loved it, and um, but you know, the same thing, just kind of got interested in other things, wandered away, studied everything else I could get my hands on just because I was like, hey, this has gotta make sense to me. I don't understand how there could be so many different beliefs, and I wanna I want to understand why, and it's just part of my thing. But um, but I can tell you from a science point of view, from a scientist point of view as well. I everything you just said, I actually, like through scientific method accidentally, I didn't set out to do this, but literally proved to myself, and then I, you know, I've worked with thousands of clients and for through their stories could also attest. And it and it was almost regardless of any, clearly regardless of anybody's religion and all this kind of stuff, or beliefs, or agnosticism, or or atheism, whatever, that you know what you said about the demons knowing who Jesus is. It's like I always I joke around a little bit, I try to put it in layman's terms, he's got the street cred on the other side. You want to call, you you know. So, first of all, you're getting attacked one way or the other. Whether you and we all know it's very tricky. Demons can attack you like they're a little girl who needs help, or they can attack you like a monster in your face, or get into your own psyche and your own guilt and your own shame. Your thoughts is the big one. All your thoughts, right? It's huge. There's there's a whole thing about that, and it's super important. It's super good to notice and be aware when that's happening. But I had enough experiences that it was like super obvious. Like, I'd wake up in the middle of the night and there'd be like a friggin' monster, devil, demon, like trying to get me. And at first, you know, I'm like. Scared and I want to run. And I'm like, okay, I've learned enough not to do that. Then I face it and I'm like, get out. And then it just grew like 10 times bigger. And I'm like, uh, I'm a do-it-yourself kind of guy, but in this situation, I'm not sure I'm gonna be able to pull this off. And then I go in the name of Jesus, get out. Yeah. And and boom, they're gone. And I I tried other faiths, other religions, other teachers, other beings, you know, even Archangel Michael, even this, even that. Nothing got these things to turn around and jam by invoking Jesus' name, right? And I know there's really cool prayers that you're supposed to say, and people should be able to find this where it's like you there's really specific ways to say it. And I always have a hard time remembering exactly in the moment. But man, as soon as I did that, gone. And everyone else I've ever told to do that, boom, it works. And so I can just, you know, I just wanted to support what you said by it doesn't just work because it says it in the Bible. Yes, it's true. It's in and you should pay attention to what it says in the Bible for these reasons, because it's true. But it it also like literally works whether you believe it or not, kind of a thing. And yeah, that to me is like, hey man, I don't care if you're a skeptic, I don't care if you don't want to do this or that and the other thing. I'm telling you right now, I've tried this a thousand times, and it's the only way it actually works.

SPEAKER_02 23:44

Yeah, well, there's there's an interesting uh story in scripture, and I'm trying to think of where it is, it might be an acts. But because there is definitely the in I think the intent behind it too, right? Because um there's I think they're um sons of Jewish leaders, and they're walking around trying to mimic what the apostles are doing with the name of Jesus and exorcisms, but they are not doing it for the right reasons, and so it's not working, right? And that's I think the thing people gotta be cognizant of is if they try to teach the name of G Jesus as uh sort of like genie, like you're gonna be, you know, totally mistaken.

SPEAKER_00 24:31

Yeah, and and and they isn't that what they mean by using the Lord's name in vain. Isn't that really what that means? It's not just saying, Oh, Jesus, you know, when something doesn't work, it's like not really having the re the belief behind it that I believe when I call on Jesus that he is the son of you know, son of God, that it is gonna work, that he is who he says he is, etc.

SPEAKER_02 24:56

Yeah, I think the in vain there I've yeah, studied that a bit where it's like you're telling me you're you're debasing it, you know. So yeah, if you're trying to use it as a profanity, for sure that's in vain. But yeah, um, I'm sure you could you could do that to the extent that it's uh it's just oh, this is like a tool, but it's not really like I don't believe in Jesus, it's just a you know a thing you're using. Um, that would seem like that would be for sure in van vanity. And they're rebuked those uh those sons in that story. And even you know, there's another interesting story where um of course, while Jesus is alive, they're trying to cast out demons with Jesus, and uh it's not working. And they're like, Well, we've been doing this the whole time. What's going on? And he's like, This type of uh possession or demon requires fasting and prayer. And that's uh I read that recently, and it was just such a curiosity in me. I'm like, huh, that speaks to kind of like um you know, somewhat of levels in the demonic realm. Um yeah, how charged they are. Yeah, well, the you know, we we we there's a whole realm we don't see we lost access to in the fall.

SPEAKER_00 26:16

Look, to the extent I I use this a lot too. I say, look, as above so below, as in the spirit world here, you got a thousand people, they're all real different, they're all different levels of consciousness, awareness, kindness, meanness. Everybody's got their stuff. It's a theater, it's complex. You you try to do something with this person, it it works just fine. You try it with that person, it's not gonna work. Like of course, it's comp of course there are certain times where with this particular demon, it's like, yeah, just get out and it goes. Or, you know, um, a simple prayer. Um, I even had one, to be honest, where I was doing a lot of intense personal work, fasting, you know, all that kind of stuff, prayer, really like being disciplined, like I call it living the monk life. And I had an attack, and for the first time, I personally was able to get them to go away. Now that was a fluke, in my opinion. Like I didn't I didn't do the Jesus, I didn't do the thing. I actually felt powerful enough in that moment. So I I believe it's both. It's like when two or more gathered, you have to have Jesus on your team, and you better be pretty dialed too. You better do your work, I think. You have to you, you know, that what you just said, like you have to do a little bit of you know, uh some prayer and fasting, some some sincere uh attempt. It's not necessary. It's I I try to get people to understand this. Jesus is unconditional, right? This all this is unconditional, but uh it helps if you don't completely just sit on the couch and eat potato chips and expect everything to be done for you. Use you know, and you can I love the analogies. Like I've been watching a lot of um podcasts, uh um Sean Ryan, I guess is his name. He gets a lot of military seal. Love it, right? And it's very analogous, it just like spiritual warfare. Like, I think I just did a I just did a thing the other day about this where it's like, look, if you're in in a in a war, you got people coming up the street out to get you, you could maybe be gifted enough and talented enough to hold them off for a while, but if you don't join up with a very strong army, like a church, for example, or in this case a military, you know, militia or something, you're you're gonna have a hard time. It's gonna be a lot harder. You may survive, you may not. You join up, you have a better chance. Well, I think spiritual, spiritual walking. You got demons everywhere. We are legion, they're around all the time, they're looking for an opening, they're they're out to get you. You may be pretty dialed, you may be able to hold them off, but man, does it behoove you to join a spiritual army? Yeah what do you think? Do you agree?

SPEAKER_02 29:42

Yeah, no, um the analogy you were just bringing up, like in terms of you know, you could use war in the real literal sense or use um a sport, but either way, the most successful teams study their opponents um in addition to all the other practice they do. And you know, how can you expect to be successful in this life from a spiritual standpoint unless you do study your enemy? And I think the tough thing is when you get into a universalist mindset, then there's the thought of, well, no one's my enemy, but you're like, well, that you're always gonna disagree with somebody because there's there's contradictory belief systems all over the place. Um and so he and so that anyways, that notion of like this is why it's helpful to also understand what other what other belief systems are so you can really reaffirm um what you believe. I mean, I worked for a year at a new age spirituality company as a believer. That's not and there's a whole thing to unpack in there because I didn't think that's what it was when I worked there, but I got this like incredible schooling in that whole thought process, and started to realize I'm like, this there, it's it's very schmorgasboard. Um, but it made me a lot better equipped to understand where people are coming from with different viewpoints and know the differences. And that I think that's one of the hard things. If it's just me defending my ideas and not able to go, okay, well, let me understand why you believe yours and and meet somewhere, then you know it's just it's just kind of a I don't know, shouting match, maybe.

SPEAKER_00 31:39

Well, you don't get anywhere, you know. It doesn't it gets you nowhere to face somebody and go, here's the thing and here's what I believe, and they go and they walk away. It just doesn't make sense. Like you it it really does make sense to f to understand and to listen to people. And a hundred percent I agree with you. Like I I have a a very close friend I've worked with for ages, Tiffany Warren. We've done a we've done a podcast together. She she works within the um Catholic Church framework and and uh um presently but became you know kind essentially a kind of exorcist, right? Like studying, yeah, deliverance ministry. Yeah, yeah, just just she's amazing. I've called on her numerous times. I've sent people to her. I mean, really good, really good at it. But just between her and I going back and forth over certain situations, what's going on either with her or with somebody she knows or with someone I know, talking about knowing your enemy, man, there are numerous complex ways in which the negative the dark side, the the the demonic side have many different words for it, are out to achieve their goal, their aim. Taking your energy, taking your soul, taking souls, winning whatever this is, the universe, the world, it doesn't matter. You know, I think people get a little confused about well, yeah, but there's so much out there, like the universal thing, yeah, man, we're all one. It's like, yeah, we're all one, but if you like, if we end up all one, it's just a void, then that's like pre-God creation. So it's like I love it, but it's not applicable to today and where you're at. There are duality, there is duality, and you better understand it and you better know which one you're choosing. Bob Dylan, I used to listen to his stuff. I mean, I don't know if people know this, but he did a whole Christian album at one point. And uh, I listened to this man, I must have been 20 years old. And um one of my one of my favorite songs in that is you're gonna have to serve somebody. You know, he goes, It may be the devil, it may be the Lord, but you're gonna have to serve somebody. And it's like, yeah, I don't know what you're thinking, but you got a choice, and it's pretty stark and it's complicated, and it's hard to understand sometimes which choice you're actually making or what side you're actually serving. But you know, it's that it's that's essentially a duality, and you've got a choice, and you better figure out the best way to do it, or you're gonna struggle.

SPEAKER_02 34:37

Well, there's that whole quote that so the the greatest trick that devil ever pulled is making convincing people he doesn't exist. There you go. I mean, that's and then I wonder Yeah, and I wanted to clarify what I meant earlier, like by studying your enemies, I don't mean people's enemies, it's of course the demonic realm and like all the different things that are going to pull you off track. So, you know, if I can convince you that you're an accident and your existence is meaningless and you know, space is infinite, and um you're just uh an evolved version of glue and or goop, right? And you know, everything here is just a big old cosmic mistake, why would you feel any purpose? Yeah, I mean if that I mean if that's like what your essence is boiled down to versus you know, what if you were uh what if you're an actual imager of God, which is what he calls humanity, that's a that's a profound existence. If you can go, okay, well, what does you know my creator want me to know about why he created me? That I mean, totally different.

SPEAKER_00 35:50

Jesus said you're all sons of gods, you know, we're all yeah, so you gotta own that and you got a choice to make. And uh I uh I hope people, you know, listen to this, and you know, it I you know, obviously the resistance people have they pick out the bits and pieces where some pastor or some priest or somebody did something, you know, sideways again, the imperfection, and they go, Therefore, I reject it, it's all BS. It's like, look, don't confuse the message with the the messenger with the message. This is one of our one of our core trainings and teachings. And it's like, please don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Please don't give up on yourself and God and your team just because somebody is you know human and has moments where they're not living it the way they'd like to. That's kind of the whole point. You never will either, you know what I mean? There are no substances, yeah, really.

SPEAKER_02 36:58

We all we all we all fall, we all fail. I I love that you mentioned that, by the way, because like it to clump the entirety of a uh or group the entirety of a belief system to be centered around, you know, the people who used it in the wrong way, like on the really wrong side, they're frauds, um, and they they're just really glorified cult leaders. Um, but then you have people who are you know pastors or whatever in positions of of power, and and they're gonna be judged differently too, more harsh. That's what scripture talks about. Those teachers. So they're they're gonna have more work to do. The pressure they're feeling is incredible. But you know, it's interesting is like if you're gonna do that to a belief system, why don't you do it to every single one? Because that that I find is often the gap is to go, okay. Well, you know, if they want to pick on Christianity, fine, let's do it and go, oh, well, there's this person, this person, this person who said they did things in the name of Christ. It's like, well, for one, how did they live their life and how did it even align with biblical principles? Um, because it's quite uh it's quite uh possible that they were just presenting a facade in order to um be able to do something, then it's like, okay, well, what is it you believe? Okay, you believe this. Well, what people believe in that, and have are they aligning with yeah, you know, a good a good ethical policy? Any politics, any religion, right? You're gonna you're gonna find it. So it's like that that is like a it's a really flimsy argument to me to be like, okay, I'm gonna judge the entirety of this and you know, this whole um, you know, religious system just on the bad people. And so there's other ways to, of course, uh examine it, but um anyways, that no, that's cool.

SPEAKER_00 38:53

You know, I wanted to, I just re I just thought of something, and I'll I'm I'm a little bit afraid to bring it up, but I think it's probably a good, a good um, you know, the Dilbert, the Dilbert guy that just passed. Oh yeah, yeah. He prayed at the yeah, prayed in the I had a little bit of I I I really want to get your take on this because you know, the way he said it, like his um his partner or somebody read read his final letter. Yeah. And you know, that's all beautiful and everything. And I uh, you know, it's that's those are tough moments, as you know. Greavy, you know, you wrote the book on it, right? Um, but you know, when he the way he said it, all my Christian friends wanted me to wanted me to be Christian, and like at this point, um I figured it doesn't hurt to like uh what the risk-reward ratio is pretty good. Yeah, he's like I got this personal savior, yeah. And um, it's like okay, come on, like that's for anyone out there who thinks, yeah, I'll just wait till like I'm about to die and I'll go, yeah, I declare Jesus Christ my personal savior. I'm not saying that doesn't work, I'm not saying that's not the wrong right thing to do. But this but it kind of speaks to what you just said, which is like, are you gonna do it because you're hedging your bet in that way? Like, hey, what have I got to lose if it's true? He even said, if it's true, I'll be in heaven. If it's not, I won't. It's like, okay, that's not kind of like I don't know, that just hit me a little bit funny. Um, what do you think? Tell me what your take on that, because I need help.

SPEAKER_02 40:33

It certainly sounds like it was transactional, you know. I I think in you know, people a lot of people will go back to the thief of the cross on the cross. And you know, if you don't know that, right, it's the guy who he wasn't baptized, he wasn't really anything. It's just, you know, remember me when you enter and enter in your into your kingdom. And uh, this is you know, the the thief on the cross. And he's like, you know, surely I tell you today, um, comma or not, comma, you know, but uh you'll be with me in in paradise. And so that's like often this, like, you know, of course, a proof point and example of someone being able to not have lived a this uh you know glorious life living in faith, but at the very end being able to pray, um, and you know, it's like ultimately God knows, right? Um, but I you know, one way that I think about this that I you know I've used for my own life is you know, imagine a uh a rope that uh begins in your hand and stretches out miles and onto the horizon and it never stops, right? And the part that we're so consumed with is the part in our your hand. And that rope is this representation of your life. So if your life is this much and you're clasping onto it, but there's all that after that you have to live, wouldn't you want to know what you have to live for beyond that? Because that would have a profound impact on how you live here, and that's you know, whatever heaven looks like, it's not gonna be the same exact experience, of course, for everyone, but it'll be perfect, restored relationships, restored body, um, all that kind of stuff. But that's something I've reflected on a lot to go, man, this life is really preparation for being in the direct presence in a perfect way with God and being the in that perfect relationship with the other people where there is no um you know malice and and sin and all that kind of stuff. Um, but it it it whether or not you get there at the very end or you are praying along the way, I think God rejoices either way.

SPEAKER_00 42:58

Yeah, and you go, well, you know, and the kingdom of heaven is within while you're alive as well, right? So I always feel that it's like Holy Spirit dwelling in you and stuff, yeah. Yeah, and then and then there's the afterlife. I'll throw this in because it just occurred to me because one of the pe one of the things people ask is, well, what about the innocent children that maybe Muslim or maybe native or maybe something non-Christian, if you will, uh in its purest sense that um that pass, don't they go? And you know, I've heard stories of guys who come back from near death experience say there is a special place in heaven for those children as well. I also believe that we are very conscious still after this body is passed, and I believe that we still have the opportunity in that moment to say to make that decision. You don't have to make it right before you die. If you don't, you die suddenly. You're still it's a big bet. Right. But I mean, you know, you're still there, and and you're right, it's a big Bet. But I'm just saying, like, I'm not I wouldn't use it as an excuse not to get it figured out way before you die, obviously. Sure, sure, sure. There's a lot of reasons to do that. But I but I just want people to understand that for those people who've never been, you know, like certain cultures, like uh, you know, I studied with the Cairo tribe in Peru for 15,000 years. These people lived, you know, in and they're the most Christ-like people I've ever met in their day-to-day behavior and treatment. You know, so but they they they didn't even have a written language, they they don't catch what's not. And so I just use that as an example. Like in and eventually they did get exposed, you know, um, through missionaries and stuff, and and many of them, you know, uh became became Christian and stuff like that. So, you know, that's not surprising.

SPEAKER_02 44:54

Yeah, you're saying the years before that, like what happened.

SPEAKER_00 45:03

You know, I can't I can't believe that these people weren't weren't seen and and favored in some way just because of I know them so well and their life of service and the way they lived. And and so I just say like even after people like that pass, they're gonna see, and and we hear stories of this all the time. People, people who never even paid attention to religion at all, and they'll talk about their death experience, their near death experience. I saw Jesus, Jesus was right there, yeah. He said, Hey, you know you gotta go back, or here's your thing, or and and so I just I just like to I just like to let people know that it's it's it's it's a much broader um process. And so it can be true. Because I think a lot of people were rejected because of that argument.

SPEAKER_02 46:02

Yeah, I mean, you you know, I there's that's one of those gray area things that's so difficult to navigate, right, conversationally. I mean, I I think the thing I lean on at the end of the day, where it's like, you know, the children and and all these kind of things, or even someone someone who grows up, you know, with mental retardation, they they don't even have the mental capacity to understand what's going on, right? It's like God has perfect justice and mercy at the end of the day. So whatever that looks like, you know, um in in terms of how people are saved, it's like I we're not going into like the afterlife where we've fully detached from this body yet. So it's it's hard, hard to know. But um, yeah, but that's uh and even because I think in a way where it's like we only know what scripture says about that. I mean, from a biblical standpoint. So if when someone wants to get hung up on that, it's like, yeah, but the here and now is what we can you know touch and feel and and and um base that on. So um I just so you know, I have a time check, I have like four minutes before. Yeah, good.

SPEAKER_00 47:15

No, let's I want to end it here because I I I think it's perfect to say that this is precisely why your app that that the Som log, PSA L M log, right? I downloaded it, it's great. This is exactly why it's so beneficial because these types of questions, you if you want to find the answer, go there. Or memorize the Bible, you know, either way, anyway or both, you know, but anyway you want to do this, there's an answer for for that question I just asked, I'm sure. And I think you know, the only way to find it is to go take advantage of this kind of beautiful thing you you know you put together. And in general, people need to understand AI is just another tool, it's another library, it's another set of data, you know. Someone wants to use it as a priest in a in the church, you know, there's a church that's been doing that for a while, you can talk to Jesus directly and all this kind of stuff. It's like, hey, don't be afraid of it. It's not it's not demonic in and of itself. It is it's just another way to expand your capacity mentally to understand the scripture and the Bible more deeply to deepen your faith. Yeah. That's that's what how I'll that's how I'll I'll give my um final word on it. Do you do you have anything you'd like to tell people before we sign off?

SPEAKER_02 48:56

Yeah, I mean, I I think you know, psalm log is yeah, it's a tool at the end of the day, and and you know, one of the hopes is to kind of help people who are isolated, maybe they don't know where to turn, you know, to help get biblical insight on what it is they're going through and um and and ultimately get people back in community too. I mean, the end result isn't to be like just solely relying on technology. Um, if you're you know, and sometimes we're temporary and temporarily in isolation because whatever, maybe you're in isolation um for traveling or whatever, but that is again like where you may have seasons where it's helpful. Um, and that's totally good. And we're always looking at ways to improve it too. You know, it's by no means gonna be a perfect system, but um, if it helps you along the way, you know, and or you have feedback, I'd certainly love to hear from you. So yeah. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 49:52

Yeah. Well, we're gonna put a you know, I'll put a link up with all of your stuff. And um again, thank you so much, you know, for reaching out and be willing to do this with me. Um, I think it's it's been a real real blessing. And um I hope that um people people feel it and are touched. And I hope they check out your your material on on grief, because I think that's super powerful. What happened with your brother? I mean, I think it ties right into this. You know, you're gonna have moments in life like that. Yeah, you know, and it gets dark and it gets deep, and that's when this stuff, that's when the rubber hits the road. Yeah, yeah, for sure. And um, that's when it's gonna show its real value to people, I believe, and and I think um I think it's worthwhile for sure. So thank you, Preston. I appreciate it. Thank you, John. Yeah, I appreciate it. All right, take care.