Turns Out Baboons Know more About Business Than We Do!

Shaman Jon Rasmussen and long-time friend and client Peter Slaugh sit down together to share amazing stories of adventure, healing and continued exploration of life and service. It all started here with Jon's most-watched YouTube video of a full session he did for Peter over a decade ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdPr2cyxiOk .

Join Jon Rasmussen and Peter Slaugh as they explore the transformative power of spirituality, nature-inspired business models, and impact investing. Discover how personal growth and innovative community strategies can revolutionize real estate and create meaningful social change.

 keywords: spirituality, impact investing, community building, biomimicry, real estate, personal growth, impact model, nature-inspired business, social change, leadership

key  topics: Spirituality and personal growth

Biomimicry and nature-inspired innovation

Community building and impact investing

Reach out to Peter Slaugh at Peter@openpathinvestments.com to learn about impact investing opportunities.

Consider applying biomimicry principles to your business or community projects.

Start small: implement community-building activities in your local environment.

Chapters:

00:00 Introduction to Peter Slaugh and Shamanic Practices

02:21 Peter's Journey into Commercial Real Estate and Spirituality

06:40 The Impact of Shamanic Work on Personal and Professional Life

10:25 Navigating Life's Challenges and Embracing the Flow

14:13 Lessons from Nature: The Baboon Experience and Community Building

32:28 Transforming Business Models through Community Engagement

35:06 The Power of Community Engagement

39:06 Navigating Challenges in the Apartment Business

41:56 The Moral Obligation to Serve Renters

48:58 Investing in Real Estate for Social Good

54:25 Adapting to the Future: AI and Purpose-Driven Business

 resources

Open Path Investments - https://openpathinvestments.com

Biomimicry Institute - https://biomimicry.org

Janine Benyus - Biomimicry Pioneer - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janine_Benyus

 guest links

Email - mailto:peter@openpathinvestments.com

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hey, welcome back everyone. This is uh Shaman John Rasmussen. We're here for another episode of Shaman Radio Presents with my good friend Peter Slaw. And uh gosh, we go back many, many years, and I'm gonna have Peter introduce himself. But um Peter was gracious uh a number of years ago to allow me to videotape a session we did, a real full session, and uh I think it's kind of the only one I've I've ever done that with, and and you and he was gracious enough to let me do that, and um and that that's gotten you know 400,000 views uh total, and you know, I I thought to myself, some people might think it's you know a bunch of BS, and some people might might love it, but you know, it'll be great to hear from Peter how it actually may have done done something for him. And uh so yeah, I wanted to wanted to welcome Peter, my good friend. Thank you, John. Appreciate the time. Yeah, tell tell us about yourself a little bit, what you want to what you want folks to know.

SPEAKER_00 1:10

Yeah, I'll give you a little sort of high-level overview of who I am. Um, so I live in Colorado. I'd lived in the Bay Area for 30 years. Uh, we made a move a couple years ago to a ranch in Colorado. Uh, very different environment from uh restaurants and traffic and Bay Area and Truckey Tahoe to no traffic, no restaurants. Uh neighbors are five to twenty miles away, type of thing. So very different scene. Um, but we're enjoying it thus far. It's uh right on the Gunnison River outside of Montrose and just uh it's it's nature-owned steroids, so it's pretty inspiring that way. Um I currently run a real estate platform, uh, investment platform where we buy multifamily apartment units as well as industrial, uh mostly distribution warehouse type space. But the uh the real story I think I'll touch on is really the business model we've adopted, adapted over the years. And uh in large part uh thanks to sort of early days with John. Um I'll just kind of launch in, John, if you don't mind.

SPEAKER_01 2:17

Yeah, go for it. Yeah, that's great. That's this is what I want to talk about, how all this went down.

SPEAKER_00 2:23

So I uh I was part of a family business back in Pennsylvania, and in 2007, uh I moved back to the Bay Area where I lived after school, and uh family business did not turn out the way I had intended. Uh got into just a firefight with my dad and just bat, you know, dynamics, family business dynamics were were just uh were a lot, and we had very different opinions about uh sort of morals and direction and uh various business uh sort of practices and approaches. He was in the real estate business as well. Um, but I jumped from uh residential sales into commercial lending. And at the time I moved back out to the Bay Area in 2007, and I was a hot mess. Um, you know, I was just like the I felt like the rug had been pulled, yanked from underneath me, and I was just scrambling to figure out who I was and what I wanted to do. And I knew I didn't want to get back into residential per se. I wanted to do something a little more sophisticated, which I I landed as a lender within the commercial real estate uh asset class. Uh, so lending on all property types and whatnot. But uh one of one of the lenders we worked with uh had some kind of promotion where if you sourced a loan for them, they would send you anywhere in the country uh for kind of a hotel resort stay with your spouse. And I asked them, I said, hey, if I don't, how about if I don't fly, but I stay at a very expensive place called the Post Ranch Inn, uh, which is where I met John. And so, you know, up until that point, I've been sort of dabbling in spirituality and was fascinated by, you know, all sort of religious practices have some commonality where they where all roads sort of lead to the same place, just in a different way. And I was super intrigued with uh Native American teachings and but didn't know how to access it. I didn't know you know where to find the find the guidance or the teachings or the lessons. And um, so I'm sitting in this fancy hotel room on in Carmel or Big Sur, West Coast of California, and I'm reading through the menu of services for massages and spa treatments and whatnot. And there was a, I don't know if you remember John, but there was a uh a shaman treatment, of course, which was which was John, which was you. And I'm like, no way, this can't be legit. You know, it's just you know, I'm at a hotel and who's you know, who's gonna show up? In walks John with uh his rattles and his crystals and uh blonde hair, blue-eyed kind of surfer-looking guy. And um, I'm like, all right, well, we'll give it a shot. And so if you remember, you did a chakra cleansing for me. And so uh, and then you gave me a bit of homework, and I didn't really feel anything or know it know what it was really all about. But then you would come to the Bay Area and do sort of in-home visits and follow-ups, and so two weeks later, uh maybe I'm sorry, it's probably about a month or more later, uh, we set up another session, and I was and John got to my house and we went through sort of the similar protocols or practices, and and um I was like, John, what the hell did you do? Like, what is what is this all about? And because uh all of a sudden it was like all the stars were starting to line for me, where I was just like terrified of being able to pay the bills and uh unsure of my my choices that I made in terms of getting into commercial real estate and the lending part of it in in particular. And it was like click, click, click, click, click. Like every star just started to line where I just had I felt like I had total support and I was seeing new business come in the door, and uh just things were starting to really come together for me in a pretty, pretty quick, expedited sort of fashion. So I started to ask more questions and I'm like, what is what is this shamanic teaching anyway? And so that was really our start, and that was really, you know, it was really a big pivotal sort of time frame for me with relative to what I had sort of gone through traumatically with with the family disruption and uh and whatnot. So um I again I was super curious. I'm like, hey, I I don't know if this works or not, but it seems to be working.

SPEAKER_01 6:45

Yeah, I appreciate that, you know, because that's classic. I mean, the most of the time I'll do sessions and I, you know, I might hear from someone a year later going, wow, you know, everything changed and stuff like that. But a lot of times people don't bother, you know, why why bother to get back, you know, and um and I, you know, it it it is powerful work. There's there's a certain amount of obviously homework. People gotta do their work afterwards, and they gotta they gotta do the psycho-spiritual work and they gotta do the physical work. And you know, you mentioned religion, you know, one of the things I really appreciate about both of us, I think where we really resonate is that we're not um well, we're we're bridge builders, right? We're not interested in preaching to the choir, so to speak. We're you know, why why bother? And so you know, I always say that hey, if someone's got a a good religion and it's healing their soul and it's doing the job, don't you don't need to call me. It's all good, you know, like you're you got it, you go. Yeah, um and you know, but a lot of folks um really don't have anything like that, aren't interested in something like that, you know, but but still want powerful work, and I think it's always been good to sort of reach reach those those people and get the kind of results, you know, you're talking about, right? And and I mean in the end, you know, and and I want to know more about, you know, obviously there was a shift in the way you you you approach your bridges having learned all this stuff, and I think you went to I think you came to Peru as well at some point uh with me. And you know, it's it's how you know we bridge all these uh different worlds so that not only is it like good for people's quality of life, right? But we are I really realize this like the whole purpose, whether it's a religion or or anybody who does work similar to this or within a religion, it's the well-being of the souls of people. Life you know can deal you all kinds of pain and all kinds of problems, right? Um but in the long run, if your soul is strong, if it's whole, if you're free and in your power and and can avoid negative influences, whether they're physical or non-physical, just practice good discernment, right? Stay away from the bad deals and and and align with the good deals and good folks. Um you know, that's as good as it gets. That's uh that's like heaven on earth, you know. And and one thing I always love about you, this was you you inspired me because man you you just like you ate you eat up life. Like you, you know, I always thought I'd lived three lifetimes when I was young. I did everything I could possibly do, and then I met you, and I'm like, wait a second, you got motorbikes and airplanes, and like you don't stop, like you just you just live. And I think that's that's food for the soul, like that's the whole point. People, yeah, people gotta take life, you know, right? Because like we were experiencing shamans say, you know, death isn't something that happens instantly through a bug or an accident or old age or something, it's something that takes your soul little by little until you're more dead than alive, and you may have not had the courtesy of disposing of your body. So, you know, one of the big secrets you hold is that you don't let that death stalk you. You you keep going after life, and and I I really use that as an inspiration for me.

SPEAKER_00 10:25

Well, I appreciate that. Um, you know, it's not without its challenges. I I do love the metaphor of the river. I mean, we're we're in the flow, and uh sometimes the flow is not so comfortable. Sometimes it's choppy and it's whitewater and pretty terrifying, and other times you're stuck in eddies and you're, you know, I think uh one sound bite I learned a long time ago uh was that uh if you the more you reach for the bank to slow it down to stop it, the more you're gonna scrape up your arms and mangle yourself. You just can't, you know, there there is a greater flow moving all around us at any given time. And trying to recognize and be aware of that is more helpful than resisting it and fighting it off. Um, you know, when I first started doing this work and we did go to the jungle, uh, that was quite the experience for me. Uh, and I always say I left my fear in the jungle because I had lived for so many years just like terrified and insecure and uh unsure of how to be socially normal or whatever, because my mind was always racing, trying to you know outmaneuver whatever I thought I was up against, but it was all fear-based. And so for the first time in my life, I was without fear. I remember coming back to the Bay Area and I fired like all of our clients because they were just toxic. And at that point, we were doing uh debt originations for commercial real estate developers. And what and while that seemed like just the opposite of what I should do, it was absolutely what I needed to do. And it just like freed up our team to be more relaxed, and sure enough, good people filled in the gaps, and we had a different sort of experience going forward. And I do attribute that to sort of letting go of fear of the jungle and really trusting the flow, and it uh easier said than done, but making bold moves and committing to a spiritual practice was what really helped me in a lot of ways. And then there was a little bit of downside to all this because uh for a while it really bonded myself and my wife and my family, and then we lived in a you know pretty expensive zip code in Marin County at north of San Francisco, and uh so I kept getting more and more quiet and still, you know, stillness in flight, so to speak. Um, and so eventually that started to really create a wedge between myself and my wife because she wanted the old way, which was you know, crazy partying days and socializing. And you know, if you invite one guest for dinner, you have to invite 20 others because you can't leave anybody out. And I was just like over it. I'm like, I need to put the brakes on and slow down. And and uh so ultimately that was that was the demise of our relationship, which wasn't a bad thing, as it turns out, either. So that you know, we all go through these chapters, these cycles, uh, the ebb and flow, back to the river, and you know, just trying to maintain awareness around where you're at and what what's around you is has always been my go-to um in the struggles and the good times. So, and yeah, you know, my trajectory has not been without struggle. There's been plenty of challenges, it's not hasn't been all roses and cakewalk, easy times. It's you know, there's been some stuff. And so this this practice has really helped me to um maintain sort of that that cadence and um just peace of mind staying grounded. Uh, but it's also given me a lot of courage to try new things and and be out of the box and try and figure out different ways to do things, and we'll we'll talk a little bit about how my business model evolved as a result, but um it's uh it's been a wild, wild ride.

SPEAKER_01 14:13

Yeah, no, I that's one of the things that I really observed about you, particularly in the jungle, that I appreciated is that your ability to stay present at whatever was going on, no matter how challenging, you were taking notes. You were literally, you know, I looked over at you and you were you were writing stuff down, planning and like figuring stuff out. And I was like, that is truly amazing. Because that, like as you say, like you're going down the river, you know, where it started and where it ends are kind of the mystery, right? This is like this is God, right? This is God's will. Like we we don't know the the the full picture. I think it's uh it's impossible to know that. And you know, and yet while you're in that present moment in that part of the river, you have you have the ability to stay present, observe what's going on, notice where the crags and the rocks and are like 10 feet ahead of you and avoid them as much as possible. But you have to be observant, you have to be present, and you have to be uh, you know, I it's like like the difference between, you know, in like in my my Catholic faith, right? It's like you've got the the ones who just show up and do do what they're told, not sure why, just go through the motions so that you know you stay you stay good. Um, and then there's the Gnostics, right? There's the ones who go read all the you know the the Gnostic Gospels and study and go into depth and really figure out what's going on here. I'm that way, but it's rare. You're that way about all of life. Like you literally, from my perspective, are piecing together patterns, figuring stuff out, trying to understand how I can use this in this part of my life. You know, and and I think that's something that people could really learn because we can all be in the same river, all be going down the same rapids, all be feeling the same pain of the of the rock scraping on us or whatever. The difference is is are you thinking like like you do, what can I do with this? What you know, what what's next? How do I I mean tell tell tell me if that's true, if that if that track anybody is right.

SPEAKER_00 16:38

You're you're giving me a lot of credit. I I'm I'm a perfectly flawed individual like everybody else, so let's let's just start there and be you know honest about it.

SPEAKER_01 16:46

Well, sure. Yeah, I mean let's I'm not trying to make you a saint, but but like I think about the story of the baboons, or I don't know if you want to share that, but it's like Yeah, I'll get into that.

SPEAKER_00 16:56

Yeah, okay. Yeah. Yeah, so I mean, it turns out we have we we do have the capacity to maneuver within the flow. Uh we can't overpower it, but I always relate it to like remember Stuart Little the childhood book? Yes. That had had so he had this little this little mouse critter that had the um had the canoe. And so we're all like in these little micro mini canoes in the river of life, and yeah, you've got some capability or capacity to you know create some inputs and uh and paddle around and kind of go from one side of the river to the other and maybe hold up a little bit. Uh again, I love this metaphor because it just explains it describes life so well. Um, so to the extent that you're you know you can you can co-create and uh work with the flow versus against it, and you're never gonna you're never gonna uh conquer the flow, trust me. I mean, I think everybody probably realizes that, but you do get to have some inputs and you do you get to co-create and be your own map maker and and uh go for it. Things are gonna change, of course. Uh so that's part of the awareness that that you have to try some things and put some effort into different directions or manifest your your visions and your hopes and your aspirations um and you know shoot for the best, right? I mean, you might line up a classify rapid and have a perfectly good plan, but uh like Mike Tyson says, everybody has a plan until they get punched in the nose, right? Right, right. Um there's a lot of that that goes on, and um, but you try and adapt. So, you know, so kind of backing up a little bit chronological chronologically, um, so I had a couple years of uh a lot deeper thinking and appreciation for all this, and yet I was still in this very institutionalized world of finance and buying investment properties with investors, and it's all about the spreadsheets, it's all about the returns. And uh after a couple years, I cut I got a little fried. I'm like, you know, this buy low sell high thesis only gets you so far, and spreadsheets are two-dimensional, yet we're living in a three-dimensional world. Uh and so during 2009, during the great, great recession, uh walking around properties that we owned in Salt Lake in particular, and you know, jobs were scarce, residents were suffering, and my whole business was built on um, you know, again, buy a property, increase rents, uh, create value, and then sell to the market and build profits and returns for investors. But the the business model is entirely based on a resident's ability to pay rent. And so if they're suffering, you know, the whole thing's gonna crumble, right? So you you better you better take care of the core of your business investment. And I think most multifamily operators in the country um kind of miss that part because they're so spreadsheet driven. And so it's like if you don't take care of your customers, you're not gonna have a business. And so during 2009, uh my marriage was on the rocks, so it was a it was a you know, there was some stuff going on for me. Uh, thought about moving to New Zealand and taking a break from the US as it was starting starting to falter. Um, but uh I I actually attended, I don't know if you remember this, but Janine Baynus uh with the Biomimicry Institute was speaking in Saucelito at a at a yeah uh and she talked all about how we borrow from nature or look to nature for inspiration and how we run our conventional businesses. And I was just like blown away by this speech. I'm like, God, you know, we got all the and and back up for one second. My my question to myself is I'm walking properties and the vibe is super low and people are really struggling. I'm like, what do we do to help? I mean, this isn't just about you know returns. It it obviously that was part of my my perspective or my lens, but you know, what do we really do to help our residents become more resilient in these times? So you could not raise rents. Uh, you know, again, jobs were scarce and people were scraping by. And um, so anyway, flash forward, I go to this uh symposium in Sausalito, California. Janine's talking about how you look to nature for inspiration, whether it's the humpback whale that has a bumpy membrane on its on its fins that helps it its glide coefficient. And so she's talking about how Boeing is looking about uh looking into wrapping their wings in some kind of bumpy membrane to capture more fuel efficiency. Like there's a good example of how nature figures some stuff out and you can apply it to everyday sort of uh practices. Or how does nature do color? Nature doesn't dump a bunch of toxic paint into it, it just it has Refractory qualities within, you know, like a hummingbird's wing or something, like you know, so looking looking for other ways, how does nature create lighting and just all this great stuff? So I'm so excited about this this concept, and I email the info at biomimicry.com or dot org, whatever they were, and I'm like, hey, I got all these properties that were, you know, if any of your um followers or or your clients or anybody wants to experiment at our properties, I'm totally game. I don't know what that looks like, but I'm not sure. So the uh so it's crickets. I don't hear back from this group, you know, all summer long. And they finally, I was I was on vacation with a family and they I got an email saying, hey, so sorry, we we never checked the uh the info at email. But if you if we're so excited that you love our our group of what we're up to, we're doing a trip in Costa Rica because the South African trip is all booked this fall, but you can come to Costa Rica uh like six, nine months from now. And I'm like, I don't I've been to Costa Rica, I don't want to go, but if anybody drops out of South Africa, I'm in last minute. So sure enough, a couple months later, I get an invite to come. And so she held a class, it was great. She held a class on this preserve, and it was all about teaching in the morning, where she would talk about these principles, and then we'd go out in the field and kind of look at what you know, what the examples really were, like how the the ant hill is self-cooling and it also is uh symbiotic because the birds are feeding off the off the dirt and the nutrients that the ants are bringing up to the top. So it's like all about this ecosystem of support. And you know, that one of the takeaways was you know, we generally don't create like ecosystem solutions. And what I mean by that is like we might come up with the electric car, which has better fuel efficiency, but nobody knows how to dispose of these batteries. So we we just you know we're good at one part of the supply chain, but then we could be super destructive on the back end and and not know how to deal with it. So it's super fascinating. Now it's day three, day two. I'm really jet lagged, and I just I'm like, I gotta take a break this period. Um, and so I talked to one of the guides because we were staying at this outpost on this big, I don't know, several thousand-acre kind of preserve with all kinds of animals. So we're getting into the baboon story now. So um I'm like, I'm gonna cut class and I'm just gonna go for a walk. And so you know, I remember some of the other participants were like, How could you come all this way and blow off class and go for a hike? I'm like, how could you not go for a hike in this amazing land?

SPEAKER_01 24:39

Right, there you go.

SPEAKER_00 24:40

So I took a little me time and uh ditched ditched the group, and I'm climbing, climbing, climbing in the morning, and the sun's, you know, the sun's just getting up after you know an hour or so. And uh I look down in this valley and I see uh all these little black brown dots scurrying around the the valley floor just doing stuff. And what I realized was it was a baboon troop. And so the baboon troop was uh com was getting ready for the day for their foraging, but they were also communicating with other troops. So you'd hear them bark their how or their call back and forth, and what they were really doing was planning where they were gonna sort of move that day, and they kind of did it in different masses of troops, they just weren't uh directly connected, but they moved as as a group, which was kind of cool. And so I'm I'm looking down after hearing these baboon calls, and uh, I'm far enough away where I'm not even close, but I could see them pretty clearly what what they were up to. And so I give my best baboon call into the down to the valley, and all all of a sudden, yeah, all of a sudden these hundred little these hundred little dots all freeze, and then they organize, and then they start funneling out of the valley. I'm like, oh my god, I just disrupted this whole morning routine, like they because I'm this this jerk up on the different set of instructions. Yeah, oh no, they're like, who's speaking French when we're speaking baboon? So I so I'm like amazed, and I also felt bad. Um, and then so I'm just standing sitting there, standing there, scratching my head, and all of a sudden I see this lone baboon uh climb a tree, scout around, like looking around like this. He would bark something, and then he'd be back down the tree. I'm like, oh, that's weird. Like there's one lone guy hang hanging out, you know, just behind the troop. And then from dinner king of the baboon. Well, he was a scout, and so the next thing I I realized he was he had closed the different the distance between us by half. And I'm like, oh wow, he's he's getting kind of close. Like this is interesting. Like he's kind of making his way up the hill, and he's he'd again he'd scout around, look, and then he'd yell something, then he'd be back down the tree and disappear for another five minutes. And so the final time he did this like three or four times, and the fourth time, he's not that far away from me, but he's downgrade, and so he's lower elevation, and he's like squinting around, looking into the sun. I got the sun in my back, and it's almost like he's doing one of these things. And and and for some dumb reason, I pick up my hand, I'm like, hey, right here. And he does a double take, does a double take, shouts something to the to the rest of the troops, and then disappears. I'm like, oh shit. I I don't I don't know what what he now he's seeing me. And the reason he couldn't see me was because um my backdrop was white, white to gray, and I was wearing a white t-shirt and gray shorts. So it was totally camouflaged until I waved at him. So all of a sudden, like, okay, uh, I hear baboons are pretty strong, you know. I don't think I can outrun them, I don't think I can fight them. So I'm like, I'm out of here. And so I go scrambling down a different direction down in the valley, like at a, you know, for the for the first time in my life, I feel like I'm being hunted for real. And so I'm I'm just like over logs, under under trees, like through all this bramble brush, scraping myself up. I'm like, I'm I'm running for a good 20 minutes, and I have to go back down through the same valley, and uh, so that was kind of daunting. But then I then I stumble out into a meadow and I'm nose to nose with a giraffe with his head in the ground eating grass. I'm like, oh my God, what is going on? And you know, part of part of my practice was I always carried crystals with me, and so I did this thing where I backed up two steps and the giraffe backed up two steps, I stepped forward two steps, he stepped back, and then I stepped back and he stepped forward. So we started to get into this rhythm of a dance, and so I hold up this big uh crystal, and he's like really curious, and and uh giraffes don't really hear, they just sense vibration. And so I started to hum with this crystal, and I know this is wacky, but it was what I was up to that at the time. And then all of a sudden I turn my shoulder to him and I'm like, hey, come on. And so we start walking down in parallel down through this valley, and you know, going for a walk with the giraffe. I was like, this is crazy. Um, and so he starts to pick up speed, and and if you've ever seen a giraffe run, it's a very slow motion and they cover a lot of ground. So I'm like, this is amazing. I'd forgotten all about the baboons. I'm like, everything's good. And so I get back to our little cabins, and uh one of the guides came back. He's like, you know, all good. I'm like, oh yeah, I'm good, I'm great. He was he's like, okay, well, when you're ready to join the group at dinner, here's the shortcut back to where, you know, the the feeding hall or whatever. And so I go back, and that's where I got a bunch of shit from everybody, where it's like, how could you cut glass? I'm like, how could you not cut glass? And um, so any flash forward. The whole point of the of the retreat was learning to borrow uh ideas from nature to implement for practical business purposes. And so we had we were given a design challenge, and some people were given uh challenge like how do you create clean drinking water in South Africa? How do you how do you create uh natural lighting in office environments? And so, like C anemone kind of things where they pull light from the surface. And so people had all these different ideas. Our design challenge was the biomimicry.org was always in competition with biomimicry.com, the same company, but one was a consultant that was earning profits based on the intellectual property of the nonprofit. So there's a lot of dysfunction. And uh because one group was making money and the other was not, and they just they were they were a mess from a org org chart standpoint. So I immediately get to work and I start creating these org charts to figure out how to cross-incentivize and you know, include the nonprofit with the for-profit and sort of align their interests. And so one of the instructors walking behind me, she's like, Peter, what are you doing? I'm like, Well, I'm org charting your mess, basically. I'm gonna fix this thing, just kind of going back to simple business practices, right? And she's like, No, no, Peter. I'm like, what? She's like, what would nature do? And I'm like, oh, right, that's why we're here. And uh, and so I'm like, you know what? And we did have access to the internet to kind of do a little research. I'm like, the baboons are an incredible example of how community works or a business environment could work where you have very clear roles and responsibilities, like the scout that was coming after me, he was later, he was definitely later uh rewarded by the the female baboons that night with tick picking and was regarded as a hero. And then so I started borrowing all these examples from the baboons to help you know rebuild this business. And it was all about communication. The baboons had have like a 70 70-word language, it turns out, and it was all about uh incentives and roles and responsibilities and and clearly aligning the the whole troupe so that they they were healthy as one unit. And so I so I get up to do my presentation and I lay out this baboon sort of architecture for their business, and it was like you know, the the guy who cut class actually aced the exam. It was like perfect, right? I'd gotten the whole message in one experience during that day. So that was a fantastic trip. And then I get back to the US and you know, months go by. I was so inspired by all this stuff, but I had no idea where to apply it. And you know, because I we weren't we're not we don't manufacture a product, we don't really have a business process like that. But I'm like, you know what? We have a community problem. We have uh residents that could be anywhere from a hundred residents to a thousand residents living at individual properties based depending on the size of the property. But it's like they're all sharing walls but not sharing lives. And so I'm like, oh my God, the baboons. We have we have a people problem, we have a community problem. And what did the baboons teach me so well? And that was like how to how to bring real community-based programming into our properties, and so that just that light bulb moment for me changed our total business plan of how we approached what we were doing. Not only did it do that, but it also uh started to feed my soul in terms of the big why. Like, why were we doing this? It you know, life can't be just about chasing dollars. There's got to be more substance and more soul-filling sort of purpose to what you do. And so we started off in this grand experiment, and we launched a pilot program called Urban Village in Provo, Utah. And again, the market was jobs were scarce, residents were suffering, properties were not cash flowing that well. So, in a business where uh there's on average, there's 65% turnover each year, that's a heavy turnover per property. And so we we just we stood back. I got a guy from Marin to kind of help me organize this, and we just decided to do this social experiment with no financial agenda whatsoever. It was just about taking care of residents and trying to be trying to be a steward of not only the land, but also the community. And so this property, uh, and I'll tell a quick story about that in a second, but this property was, you know, running decent occupancy and but you know, a lot of expenses and whatnot. And so we kind of introduced what we wanted to do, and it really was social events and how to rebuild community or how to get community started. And so we let the residents lead what they wanted. We didn't want to be a top-down, you know, we know it all, we know what's best for our residents. We let them kind of inform us. And so we kind of stood back, we had a big meeting at the property, and we said we're gonna provide a little bit of money for food, for gatherings and whatnot, but we'll let you guys decide how you want to spend your money and spend your time. And so we had barbecues, karaoke nights, cooking classes, uh, community gardens, uh, babysitting, workout groups. Like all of a sudden, this property, I equate it to the moment when Dorothy lands in the in the uh uh munchkin land, and it goes from black and white to color. And so all of a sudden, this property had color, and it was like technicolor, and it was just like you it was beaming. And I remember I was still so I've always tried to walk with a foot in both worlds, but I walked on the property one time, I showed up, and there's flowers hanging over the eve of every front door, and I march into the office, I'm like, who paid for the flowers? Like, what I didn't approve that, you know, it's still two two-dimensional thinking, right? I still have my spreadsheet in my mind. And um, the manager goes, No, no, no, the residents are competing for the best front door, that's their own dime. They're just they're they're just so into it. And so the just the light bulb moment went off. And then nine man months after we started this whole experiment, um, this one property in our portfolio was gushing cash. I'm like, what the hell is going on? Like, rents hadn't changed, but what had happened, yeah. So there's there's a little hidden upside that we'd never intended. And so rents were still flat, but we were 100% occupied. We had a waiting list for folks who wanted to live there. Nobody was leaving, and so there's your 65% annual turnover that just got sh turned off, and so we had no, we didn't have countertops, paint, carpet, appliances, all that wear and tear turnover cost just it disappeared. We had no advertising uh expenses, and it was just like wow, we just hit like the mother of all impact models that we never intended to do. Right, and back then, back then we didn't know the word impact, we didn't know triple bottom line, we didn't know any of these like catchphrases for conscious capital, all this stuff. We just set out to do the right thing by asking the question of what do we do to help? And so that shifted our business model, it shifted our culture, it shifted our our mission and aligned our team members. Um, where it's like uh it feels so good. We have so many residents that that uh write us happy thank you notes, um, which is very different than the industry by and large. Yeah, right. So we had to, you know, so flash forward, we've now my company was never going to be big enough to impact enough people or residents. So we formed a property management company that could serve other owners as well. And so I'm proud to say that we now have about 16,000 units under management, and we have like, I don't know, 110, 110 properties across the country, all with this backbone of impact at the core of what we do and how we do it. And so that to me, if you have 16,000 units, just double it for resident, because it could be more or less, you know, one to two to three or four per uh apartment. So let's just say it's double. So that's 32,000 people that we get to impact and have the opportunity to really make a difference in their lives.

SPEAKER_01 37:58

So that's I mean, that you know, it's amazing. I and this was what it started what, 17 years ago, roughly. Yes. So you know, people should understand, you know, things things take time, right? It's like you got a great idea, but it's like it takes it takes time to turn the shit, right? And people gotta hang in there, and they gotta have faith and they gotta wait and hope and keep working. Like you've I I'm sure you know, you've been you could tell me, tell us, but like you've been through periods where you know it's not all roses, all you know, it's not a straight up, right? There's times when you you go down again and you gotta get up, and you know, how did you get through those periods? Like, how did you manage for seven, you know, to get to this point after that initial realization, right? The one person in the whole industry that had a realization like that, yeah, you know, how did you deal with with being the only the only one that saw this basically?

SPEAKER_00 39:06

Yeah. Well, it's so interesting how um uh the corporate world has kind of gone come and gone with impact and ESG and uh different flavors of trying to do the right thing. And um, you know, my own energy levels have ebbed and flowed over time. And you know, the the apartment business is tough, and you know, costs are back, you know, they're they're escalating with insurance costs or they're escalating with frivolous lawsuits and um diff different challenges within the business. And especially today, like, you know, we're we're in this environment where it's not just show up, have a plan, have a vision, and have a good heart about where you want to go with things. We're we're so bombarded with so many different macroeconomic variables and social variables, and it is nuts trying to run a business right now. Um, because it's just not as simple as it used to be. There's just a you know, now now we're doing, you know, now we're working with five-dimensional Rubik's cubes, and it's like, wow, didn't see that coming. Um and so you know, the truth of it is it takes a lot of grind and a lot of grit and a lot of work, and yet I've even lost my way along the way where it's like, oh, well, you know, we did extremely well with selling a bunch of apartment deals through the teens, and uh, and now we're back to a really harsh environment, and I'm just like I'm I'm exhausted. Yet, where I get inspired is when I come back to my roots of this urban village concept and our property management company, which is carrying the flag. I've got a great uh it's an all-women-led company now. I'm just like the quiet guy in the corner trying to uh provide ideas and guidance and direction, but you know, they're doing the heavy lift. And so I give all the credit to my team who's really kind of carried the flag and they're convincing other owners that this is the best way to take care of their residents and their business model, uh, which I mentioned earlier. Like if you have everybody suffering, you're just not gonna have a great outcome. So it's it's important to kind of embody this and stick to it. And again, I've I've found my way in and out of like being really excited about it to being a little bit fried, a little burnt out. Uh, I'm back to being reinspired, knowing that it's more than ever this business model is needed. And more than ever, you know, if I think it's uh 40% of the population is a renter household, and the rest are homeowners, and that that number changes all the time. But that's a big chunk of the US population, and not all uh people are created equal. I mean, some are well off and they're renters by choice, but most are renters by necessity. And it's so it's really that renter by necessity that we have, I believe, a moral obligation to serve and to make sure, like Urban Village as the program, we now bring all kinds of goods and services into our properties uh for food relief or transportation or health, uh, we do haircuts, you know, we do job fairs, like all this stuff. And I and I we we have a big audacious goal, which is if we can achieve a net zero rent environment, uh, that would be the coup de gras, the the the ultimate sort of accomplishment. And what I mean by that is if you're spending, let's call it $1,200 on rent, if we can find you $1,200 in savings, then that's my theory is that you're living there for free. You know, it's a net net zero.

SPEAKER_01 42:41

Um, that's good overall systems thinking right there.

SPEAKER_00 42:45

Yeah, like you're I don't know if we'll ever get there per se, but we're we're sure gonna try, and that's what drives us to keep refining and refining and figuring out what what actually works with the property. I mean, we we do bees, we do gardens, we do all kinds of crazy stuff. Uh, you know, it's just it's just a fun way to run a business, and it really is a great um culture building kind of kind of mission that helps too.

SPEAKER_01 43:09

How can more people get in get involved, learn more, contact you, work for you, you know, uh get under your umbrella. Like what give give us the like because this is I mean, this is this is huge. This should be global, in my opinion. Like this is a big deal, right? Like it's smart, I mean there should be a good idea, in my opinion. There could be like a policy around this, you know, like there's a lot of things that it is. Like it's still this big and it can go. But you're gonna need help. You need, you know, you need you need fresh blood. And you know, how how can people do that? How do they learn?

SPEAKER_00 43:52

Just think about our ecosystem. So uh getting a job with us is one thing, and you know, I'll give everybody my email. It's Peter at openpathinvestments.com. Um, but I think you know the the bigger driver for me is attracting more and more capital into this space with this mission in mind. And trust me, this isn't at the cost of returns. I'll argue all day long that this is enhances your returns and makes makes a return on your investment more resilient just because you have a stronger foundation at the property levels. Um, so I think capital is important. I think other property owners that want to embrace this as well, we would be glad to talk to you. Uh you know, it the first five years, we're now six into it as far as a company. We used a prior management company to do this, and we would just run a program alongside them. We were constantly hitting a you know a glass ceiling with them. They just did not care about our program. And they tell us one thing, we'd show up at the property, and other things were happening that weren't good. So we we had to do it, we had to take it in-house to do it ourselves to really ensure that the quality was there. So I think it's you know a function of capital uh with like-minded uh investors that want to see their money not only earn a return but also hit social and and um environmental returns as well. Those are important to me. Um, and then other property owners, like wake up, guys, like you know, the hospitality industry is such a good example, like you can't berate your customers and expect them to come back. And that unfortunately is how that unfortunately is how a lot of uh property owners and property management companies run multifamily housing where people live. These are people's lives. And if you if you take care of them, just like a hotel, if you take care of your guests, they're gonna be repeat customers, and so that's it's that simple. And what comes out of it, it can get a lot more complex, but stick to this simple sort of mission and thesis and uh doing good doing well by doing good. I mean, we've heard that a million times, right? But it's true. So I think in this time where there's so much uh knee-on-the-neck pressure from different directions, what I don't care which side of the fence you're on or the aisle you're on politically, it is just this is us. This is our our country, our population, and the village concept has is older than dirt. You know, it takes a village, right?

SPEAKER_01 46:14

It's just yeah, we're not we're not like reinventing the wheel.

SPEAKER_00 46:19

Not at all, but but again, collectively, we've we've lost our way over the years in terms of how we view, you know, what the bottom line looks like and how to get there. And um having something with purpose and with mission-aligned sort of direction, I think that's really critical to uh helping people get through whatever this this goofy wave is.

SPEAKER_01 46:38

And like you say, you're not your returns aren't suffering. I mean, that that's the beauty of it. You do the right thing, you you make people harmonious and feel good. I've been a renter my whole life, I still am, and you know, I have a good relationship with my my landlord or whatever. And, you know, if um if there's some little thing I can fix or I can pay for, I just do. I don't bother to like collect from that, you know, like it's and then when I, you know, they need to, you know, I need a break, they give me a break, you know. So it's it's just it's harmony, right? And and uh yeah, I just think um, and and also, I mean, isn't it true? You you too you're you're obviously more involved. I'm somewhat on the side interested in everything in the world because it's my village and I have to be. But it's like, you know, I've heard, you know, some of the astrologists and some of the obvious like technical analysis and all this stuff that we might be, you know, we might have a few good years now of like uh a booming economy, and then like 2028, 29, you know, we might go through a more severe, maybe even depression and at least another great recession or this type of thing. And um it, you know, you don't want your money in the stock market at that point. Like you're gonna you're gonna lose 10, 20, 30 percent. It's it's typically real estate is smart, right? Hard assets, like if somebody was involved in is that true? Would you say that you know, if you're thinking of where to put some money in the next few years, um, three to five years, uh, it seems to me that's a pretty pretty cool thing to do with it, not only for your return, but for doing good in the world and helping people out, especially in those times, like you said, where then the community is really struggling. I mean, you know, tell me if that's true or if whatever, you know.

SPEAKER_00 48:29

Well, that that's certainly my direction uh and my belief. And I just um I don't know where the what what's around the corner of the next bend of the river, but nobody knows. I think sticking to your heart and trying to find your way back to sort of having real purpose in your life and um and serving, you know, just you know, trust the flow, but be of service and uh and park your bets if you're investing in in areas you believe in. Um I I equate the stock market to white sugar, it's like it's a sugar high, right? And it you're it it will definitely crash and leave you, it you know, it has that. Not to say real estate doesn't have risk too, because it does. Um, but I will say hard assets like real estate are a good alternative to you know balancing out your portfolio.

SPEAKER_01 49:18

Yeah, yeah, I I agree. And I've I've seen, you know, over the years of 30 years at doing what I've been doing with with clients from all over the world, you know, there there is that that type, and it's kind of what you were describing as the people that just think I'm gonna just I'm gonna make a ton of money and then I'll go out and do good with it, you know, and I'll be a philanthropist. You know, once I have my number one, are they still sane by the time that happens? Number two, are they, you know, alive? Um number three, you know, a lot of things in their life suffered soul level wise, right? Just mental attitude, you know, from that approach. And I just love that you realize, and I wish, you know, a lot of people would get this, that start now. Start start doing the right thing, contributing, finding ways to do business and be profitable uh the way you have. Um and and and that'll last the rest of your life, and you'll be healthier and you'll be mentally healthier and you'll do better. You'll do more than just waiting till you got the billion and then and then giving half of it away to a program. I mean, that's first off, way off in the future. It's we gotta do it now. Like we, you know, people are suffering now. Like, let's get let's figure out a way to do this. I love it. I just wish I mean I've known you a long time, and I and I'm I'm not, I don't, I'm I don't get biased anyway. It's not what I do, but it's like I don't know how anyone couldn't listen to what your story, your talk, um, your approach, your success, and not figure out that um, you know, they they ought to uh find a way to do it in whatever whatever business they're in. I mean, I I'm sure there's a way to do this in in everything, right? Not just real estate, but probably just about everything. Like I I would love to see you, you know, you're probably already doing a bunch of this, but you know, advising and and uh you know uh consulting and you know giving talks and like this is this is good stuff. And I think um it's only gonna get more disruptive. You got AI, you got all these things coming, right? That are you know, the world is changing rapidly, uh bigger than the previous industrial revolution. Like we're we're gonna have to figure out a new way. And and I think you've been leading it. You've figured it out a long time, and you and I are the kind that figured things out 15 years ahead of anyone else, typically, because of just that looking out, you know, looking outside the norms and doing what other what everyone else won't do, you know, like taking off in the middle of class and climbing a hill and calling out to baboons. I mean, that's you know, that's that's that's you know, wild and fun. But you know, um so you know, eventually people kind of catch up, but I think we're at a critical juncture, don't you think? I mean I sure do. I sure do. I mean, luckily you're in the kind of business AI is not gonna like take take away necessarily, but a lot are I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 52:43

I don't know. Uh you know, I think the uh the trades are gonna do fine. You can't replace the plumber, electrician, you know, the contractors very readily. I think the factory automation is gonna be a threat to, you know, if if let's say we have a uh a building uh next to Amazon, I mean, where are those where those resin's gonna work, right? So that that to me is a systemic threat to the everyday livelihood of of uh blue-collar labor. But I think the trades are where it's at with um the hands-on stuff that won't get replaced anytime soon. So you're gonna have this huge uh K-shape of the have and have nots. Uh, and I think AI is gonna make that really that's gonna shape it pretty dramatically.

SPEAKER_01 53:26

Well, I I I challenge you to sit down and do the same thing you did uh, you know, after at that class, right? Took their organization and and re-orged it and made sure. I think it'd be really interesting for you to look at what's coming or what's already here, basically, in that regard, and uh and figure out a way to to make it work, right? I mean, you you know remember was it Andrew Yang, the the guy who ran for president from Silicon Valley a couple of a couple of runs ago, and he's like, hey, we need a universal basic, you know, income. Everyone should get, you know, five grand a month and then figure out what you're gonna do. It it almost seems like we're at that point where that might start to have to be part of the solution if so many people are disrupted, you know, at least for a little while.

SPEAKER_00 54:26

I I do know that uh for personal happiness that uh most people need some kind of purpose, right?

SPEAKER_01 54:39

So this is what I'm saying. Like I think you're beautifully suited if you want a new a new uh project. Yeah, thanks. Do the do the do the Peter, do your approach to solving this massive industrial revolution problem.

SPEAKER_00 54:58

We'll see. I you know, every day's uh every day's a new day, every every hour's a new hour at this point. So we're we're it's one-hand combat in this current market. Um it is, isn't it? Yeah. It is. It it's it's a lot. I think it's a lot for anybody. I'm actually trying to le read fewer headlines. I just can't take the uh toxicity of it and the the rinse-repeat kind of processes going off.

SPEAKER_01 55:22

No, it's so true. I've I've been doing the same thing, and and like I said, I think we're gonna get a little bit of a respite. I think we're gonna get, you know, um a couple of years here at least, if if not a few. Uh where where things kind of start getting a little easier, a little better. I don't know why, I don't know how. I'm just I'm a big fan of these cycles and a big fan of astrology and all this stuff, as you know. And I just think I think we may get a little break here and we ought to do, but we but we should be doing something with that. Like we can't just rest.

SPEAKER_00 55:57

Yeah, what's your what's your a I I tell kids what's your AI strategy?

SPEAKER_01 56:03

Right, right.

SPEAKER_00 56:05

Either, either proactive or defensive. What what is your AI strategy? Start thinking about it.

SPEAKER_01 56:11

Yeah. Totally. You gotta be on it. Like I I reluctantly have you know dove in and have been using it and getting familiar with it at least, you know. Um, because I don't know, I never know why. Uh half the time I don't know why I get into things until later. I'm a little slow on the uptake. Um, but I get into it nonetheless, and then I later realized that was probably a good idea. Yeah you know, or or at least I can share it with people. But yeah, that's genius. I mean, you gotta figure it out how you how you live with it. Yeah. Yep. Amazing. So well, I really appreciate you taking the time to do this.

SPEAKER_00 56:53

Sure. Happy to share. Uh, you know, whatever I can do, my little part to keep spreading the good word and make sure people get get back to basics, you know, and take care of one another.

SPEAKER_01 57:04

Yeah, well, like I said, you know, bridging, walking between the worlds, you know, bridging. That's it. Like, I don't care if you're, you know, uh living in Big Sur out in the mountains and you know, uh drinking green juice, you know, or you're running a multinational corporation. We're all humans, we're all the same, we're all Homo sapiens, we're all baboons, basically, on the level. And um, and we're all gonna be doing the things we do. We're all contributing in our own way to the village. And and and I don't believe in judging, I believe in in just figuring out what that is for for you and and celebrating celebrating what everyone else is doing. I celebrate what you do, I celebrate what what what a lot of people are trying to do at these high, high levels of business and finance and the world. And, you know, they as humans will will come to their own conclusions, um, you know, a lot like you did, you know, just way ahead of the pack, I believe, and and figure it out. But it's not not if we isolate, you know, we have to we have to have bridges, we have to introduce these ideas, we have to share our stories to inspire others. And nobody's above anyone else. And so I just I just believe that you gotta stay engaged um with with the global community at this point. And um so yeah, I I hope to do that. I I appreciate you doing that with me. I think this has been um I think if anything, super insightful and and fun. And uh, you know, I uh I'll look forward to more.

SPEAKER_00 58:55

Yeah, well I I appreciate all the help, all the help you've given me over the years and helped me course correct and uh you know wake me up from time to time and uh which has been great. So and I appreciate you having me here to to talk today.

SPEAKER_01 59:08

Cool. Thank thank you so much, Peter. I'll put your uh you know your info on the on the description and all that kind of stuff. People can reach you if they if they wanna wanna learn and explore more. Okay. Great. Thanks, take care, have a good one. You too.