Dr. Katrina Ostmeyer - Beyond the Individual, a Flexible Model for Neuro-divergent Kids and Families

 summary

In this insightful interview, Dr. Katrina Ostmeyer, a licensed psychologist and behavior analyst, shares her expertise on neurodivergence, effective intervention strategies, and the importance of patience and relationship-building in supporting neurodivergent individuals. Discover practical tips for parents and caregivers to foster positive change and resilience.

 keywords

#neurodivergence #behavioranalysis #parenting #interventionstrategies #patience #relationship-building #autism #mental health #childdevelopment #neurodiversity #ADHD #Autism

 key  topics

Neurodivergence and diagnosis

Environmental and biological factors in behavior

Practical intervention strategies

Patience and relationship-building in parenting

 guest  name

Dr. Katrina Ostmeyer

Titles

Unlocking Neurodiversity: Practical Strategies for Parents and Caregivers

The Power of Patience: Supporting Neurodivergent Kids with Dr. Katrina Ostmeyer

 sound bites

"Maturation is a beautiful thing in child development."

"Test your hypothesis and work through the hard things."

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Dr. Katrina Ostmeyer and her background

01:29 Personal stories and motivations in psychology

02:47 Understanding neurodivergence and diagnosis challenges

06:22 Differentiating biological neurodivergence from environmental challenges

11:26 First steps for parents suspecting neurodivergence

12:58 Focusing on positivity and strengths in children

14:24 Patience and maturation in child development

16:42 Testing hypotheses and adjusting interventions

18:05 Using technology and remote coaching for support

21:02 Managing emotional reactions and staying calm

23:06 The importance of patience and time in growth

26:41 Handling setbacks and intervention failures

34:51 Managing problem behaviors and reactive responses

40:09 Cultural perspectives on neurodivergence and parenting

44:24 Environmental influences and diet on behavior

47:12 Recovery and resilience through lifestyle changes

49:05 Practicing patience and mindfulness in daily life

52:02 Relaxation techniques and managing stress

53:21 Final thoughts and resources for parents

55:19 Conclusion: Building a foundation of trust and patience

55:35 Navigating Parenting in a Complex World

57:44 Learning from Children and Embracing Messiness

 resources

Beyond the Individual (Dr. Katrina Ostmeyer's organization) - https://beyondtheindividual.com

Child Psychology Program at KU - https://psychology.ku.edu

 guest links

Website - https://beyondtheindividual.com

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:01

Hi, this is John Rasmussen. And I have a very special guest today, Dr. Katrina Ostmeyer, who is a licensed psychologist, board-certified behavior analyst, specializing in neurodevelopmental profiles, complex behavior, and co-occurring mental health conditions. She's the founder of Beyond the Individual, where she helps families and organizations build practical, evidence-based approaches that actually work in real life, and is a professor of the practice and clinical director for the KU Child Psychology program. She's grounded in the belief that effective care has to fit the person, the family, and the system around them. She spends her days training clinicians and providing services and her evenings keeping up with life as a mom of two neurodivergent kids. Never one to say no to a new experience, she's built a few fun facts along the way. She plays euphonium enthusiastically, if not expertly, in a brass band with her much more talented son, holds a black belt in Taekwondo, and was part of the Guinness World Record for the Largest Tuba Ensemble. When not running around with her kids, you'll find her happily exhausted watching Lower Decks as a Family and her dog Gershwin. So welcome, Katrina. Thank you so much for coming. And I'm looking forward to this discussion. This is going to be great.

SPEAKER_03 1:29

Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_01 1:31

Yeah, this is this is um you know one of those subjects that I like anyone virtually everyone has had experiences with this, I would say, at this point. And I, you know, I can say in my own practice over several decades now, I mean, this is often a big challenge that comes up, right? Dealing with with neurodivergency, not only in our kids, but you know, we're finding out even uh as adults like me that we we are also that. And uh it explains a lot. And then I see so many people just struggling with, you know, how to manage it, what to do. I mean, there's there's a like you, like, you know, it says in here, and and we'll let you talk about it here, you know, there's so there's so many, there's so much advice, and you just feel like it you you could you gotta do more, right? But I think um maybe maybe more is not always the key, but you know, so so tell us tell us your experience with this. How how you know you got interested in in this particular subject of psychology and and how you're approaching it differently.

SPEAKER_03 2:47

Yeah, so similar to to my bio, I am a person where when opportunity knocks, I like to say yes. And I honestly fell into my career path just through a series of yeses to start. Um I was looking for a degree program, knew I wanted to help people for a living, and ended up in behavior analysis, learned about autism at that time. And at that period of time, our definition of autism was a little different than it is uh now 20 years later. And also working in emotional behavioral disorders in um youth in a in a group home setting. With that, I continued to say yes. I went to grad school and had the opportunity to develop some specializations in obsessive-compulsive disorder and anxiety, just because the opportunity came and I said, okay, let's do it. And found I just really was having a hard time after my master's deciding what I wanted to do, and decided I wanted to do research for a living and uh went to do my PhD. Uh, had my own uh first of my first child in graduate school, which changes some of our plans. And I had an opportunity arise that would bring me back home to run a not-for-profit, uh, focused on um providing services to children and youth and rural areas with autism. And through that experience, um started to lose some of the rose-colored glasses that I had in my education, where this all this works and all these systems are perfect. And if we just follow the manuals and do the right things, it will work. And started to realize uh very rapidly as I got into my career that that that's not always how things work, right? It's not perfect. Systems need to work together, there's holes. And that led me to uh developing my own program and clinic beyond the individual because I was seeing so many families falling through the cracks in these systems and also have my own family with neurodivergence and uh knowing that we were having a hard time. And if I'm having a hard time, I've got all of this training and specialty. I can only imagine other people who don't have all of that knowledge because there were definitely times where I as a parent was questioning whether I'm doing the right things, and still do, still do, to be honest.

SPEAKER_01 5:20

Well, yeah, I mean, I would imagine like, you know, we're human and and uh and there's always so much more to learn and there's there's there's new experiences. I mean, it just just hearing you talk about it, I you know, you I was thinking back a little bit in personal experience, family experience, friends, and so on, that you know, how do you differentiate when somebody has like a a truly, you know, whatever, biological, neurobiological, neurodivergent situation going on versus just the challenges of today's world, which are just such a huge factor. You know, how can you even tell that it's not just distraction or social media or this and that versus there is a real developmental issue? And and at what at what point, you know, would would somebody notice that either in their children or or themselves or anyone?

SPEAKER_03 6:22

Yeah. And this is a is such a great question. Uh I think about autism specifically, uh, our incidence and prevalence of the disorder has just skyrocketed in the last, you know, 20 years. And when we're looking at that, some of it is we we've changed our definition of what it is. So even when we're looking at the first thing is labeling it, is this neurodivergence or is it something else? We're we're using these black and white, like it is and it isn't. And I think that's the first thing that I often tell people, because I often work with what I call gray area kids. And these may be kids who, depending on who the person doing the diagnostic evaluation is, uh, they may or may not end up with certain diagnoses or certain profiles. We we also are seeing that neurodivergence, when we're labeling it, can have very different forms. And so we can see there's a lot of different brain mechanisms. Some of the current research uh uh looking into this is focusing on there's multiple pathways, and there may be kind of this you know, family broader autism phenotype for some of these um level one or or less severe cases, and we have you know more genetic disorders or um some different changes, right, going on there. And so, even looking at the label, it's one of those things where it's a little bit of a wishy-washy concept right now for some of these things.

SPEAKER_01 7:50

Sure.

SPEAKER_03 7:51

And then I always look and say, like, what is going on? Uh, what are the problems? And I often start and I I work as both a diagnostician and as a therapist. And we we look at what is going on with that whole person. So even with our intakes and gathering information, I ask about social media use. Like, is your child even on social media? My preference is they're not, but um, the reality is a lot of them are what is their, what are their electronic consumption patterns? What how do they sleep at night? What do they eat? And we do see some of these things. There's there is both that bio and environmental component. We we really don't see very many behaviors that are just all biological, right? There's a there's an interaction going on here that changes how they present. And when we're looking at those treatments too, we can look at both of those factors uh to address those concerns.

SPEAKER_01 8:49

Right. So I guess that's where it gets where it gets tricky, right? Because there's limits to what people can do in a challenging world as a parent and having to work and and and this and that, and who's, you know, who's actually influencing their their child. Um and then you know, where do you, you know, which which one do you focus on, right? Do you try to do you try to like bend the world to to manage the symptoms? Or, you know, do you look you look for more core? You know, with with my work, for example, I mean, you know, it it gets even more complicated, right? Because, you know, I'm I'm going back to, you know, kind of soul level stuff, not just genetics and epigenetics and stuff, but it's like, you know, uh we we all know that that people will come in with entirely different personal, you know, two children close apart come in with entirely different personalities and all this stuff. And it's like uh, you know, how much of that is just inherent to their to their consciousness and and impacted by whatever happened previous to this life. So, you know, you can imagine like it's we can go down a rabbit hole of there's even more more factors, but you know, leaving that aside, it's already complicated enough as to you know what what factors are gonna be the most effective, you know, I'm all about pragmatism, effectiveness, efficiency, like do the thing that works, that takes the me least amount of effort, like why not, right? Or or get to the core of the thing, you know, like if you can, if you can oftentimes multiple symptoms, let's say, arise from one single core issue, and if you can address it at that level, then you can save a lot of time addressing all the symptoms. Would would you agree with that? Or how does maybe maybe in a very practical sense for for listeners who haven't done a lot of research, maybe don't know all the even all the words and the and the you know the stuff that would take a like a PhD to really um learn and and you know, I I'm that I'm that way. I like to learn everything I can about everything. Um but for folks who are just trying to trying to go, what would be my first step? If I suspect or if I'm just having trouble, I'm just I'm I'm challenged, maybe, maybe they they're seeing a psychologist, maybe not, but what would you say is the most practical and effective way to start addressing what seems like a a neurodivergent type issue?

SPEAKER_03 11:36

Yeah. And there's a couple of it's a little bit of a nuanced answer.

SPEAKER_02 11:43

Of course.

SPEAKER_03 11:45

I usually start with the person. And we know that if we can help kids feel successful and and come into contact with more success and positivity than they do negativity and corrections, we can actually change a lot of behavior and really set them up for success. And it also helps take away one of the questions of what's driving this and what's driving some of these symptoms. And I working with uh neurodivergent and and honestly, kids who uh again, neurodivergence takes many forms. Maybe it's anxiety or you know, ADHD, autism, et cetera. Maybe it's just I sat on YouTube for four hours and I'm dysregulated, you know. But I I think about how can we increase more positivity and positive interactions? And when we're looking at the core of all of our interventions that are effective uh from a from a parent and environmental standpoint, we start with how can we see the good things and focus on those first? And so if I were to work with a family, that's one of the first things we do is like, how do we increase the positivity in in this child's life and interactions?

SPEAKER_01 13:06

That's right. I love that because it it speaks to the notion that we're inherently an adapt, our species is unique in its adaptability, I would say, right? So you know, you can you can have um inherent challenges. And maybe they're not fixable, like you can't, you know, um, but you know, make the best of it or focus on what's good, focus on what works, do you know, like I I really appreciate that because I think there it's that it's that notion of just being like a high high functioning whatever the challenge is, right? And is that which kind of what you're saying is that if we can if we can make the person feel successful, good, capable, even with the challenges they they have, right? Um you don't have then then it's like well, they're kind of in the background then. Like the it's they don't they're not the major issue. Is it is is that fair to say?

SPEAKER_03 14:25

That's very fair. And I even have, you know, working I had a con just a conversation with my daughter yesterday because we we were having a rough morning, transitions are hard for us. And I was asking a lot of questions and she said, Mom, stop uh I think she said, Stop grilling me. She's like, I don't know what was wrong. And I was like, Well, we gotta figure it out. Um, but sometimes we get so focused on the problem that then that becomes who they are, and it's like that's what you care about, is that I have this problem. And and it's like, oh my gosh, I realize I just like made the number one fallacy or the problem that I see for families is as a parent. I was like sitting here focusing on her problems instead of her her many, many strengths.

SPEAKER_01 15:16

That speaks to so many things because I have this same challenge. I have to know, well, I have to work really hard, let's say, at the difference when I'm advising a client, you know, in an hour-long session. And and my whole job at that point is to analyze, is to ask questions, is to come up with new frame framing, new perspectives, a new, a new uh way of way of thinking or doing things. And then when it and then when I'm not in that, I can't do that to my family. Like I like they're not asking number one. So it's that that's a huge it's true for teachers, it's true for mothers whose kids grow up and then they're still they're still treating everybody like as a mother, you know. That's that's um, it's really hard to turn on and off, right? Like and and like you said, uh you know, it's not always the time to be solving or or trying to fix or improve a situation. Sometimes it's just living, like how you know differentiation, differentiating a psychology session with just life.

SPEAKER_03 16:25

Yes, absolutely. And I think then think about you know, what's the next thing? So I understanding it and being able to label it or um say, here's the reason this is happening, um, can be helpful to a point. And I uh do, you know, I'm trained as a scientist and and I go back to my scientific training too with that and really focus on okay, well, we have a hypothesis. I'll never know for sure what's going on under here, but I can test that hypothesis. And if I can do some simple things uh and try to do them the same way most of the time, I can test whether that hypothesis is accurate or not. And so that's kind of the other thing that I tell families, it's like, let's start first with just being positive, right? And focusing on the good things because we learn through uh building skills and focusing on the good things, not by punishment or or deterring. Um, and then it's like, okay, it's not gonna work right away. Everything that I do, how do I stick with it and work through the hard things so I can test my hypothesis, see if what I think is going on is correct?

SPEAKER_01 17:44

So, what would be an example of that? How for for somebody I don't know if we can think of a think of a good example of I know being being positive, like you said. Is there another example you could think of that someone like a lay person, if you will, could could try that with?

SPEAKER_03 18:05

Yeah. So when we're looking at some of the difficulties that can come with uh neurodivergent profiles or or even just behavioral profiles in general, we want to first say, yes, we want to have a hypothesis or a guess of why is that behavior happening. So um, because I really can't talk about my clients, I often will come back to my own, my own life. Sure. And you know, um both of my kids have have ADHD and anxiety. And so when something is gonna take a lot of time and effort, and there's also a chance that it can be wrong or uh inaccurate, they're likely to try to avoid those situations to some degree. Um, because it feels uncomfortable to go do something that I might not be immediately successful at and to spend a lot of work at it. And so what we kind of focus on when I'm saying being consistent as like, okay, my hypothesis, right? Or I think you're trying to not do this hard thing, not because you're insufficient or lazy or anything, it's because it's hard and it's uncomfortable. And so we try to be consistent in how um we encourage our kids to face those challenges and we look for challenges and we talk about um what are some things that were hard and what are the things we want to lean into that are uncomfortable today. And so we consistently work with our kids, uh, sometimes more successfully than others, to say, like, what's the thing that you're gonna do that's hard for you today? And how are you going to uh face that? And how can we help you do that? Um and and we try to do that every day because that practice is gonna be really important for them.

SPEAKER_01 19:59

Yeah, I think that's great. And it and it and it reminds me also, and and this is also something I work on personally, is is sort of patience, right? Is knowing that this isn't something that you do a thing and then boom, the the kid gets it, they're good to go, they're no longer you know, they can go they can go stand and talk in front of a crowd and they're not anxious or whatever. Like um, I always have to remember, again, this adaptability thing that you know, when you're talking about children particularly, right? Up until what the full fully developed brain in the mid mid-20s, even, you know, and I remember that. I I remember what a mess I was in my in my twenties having to get up and and give a presentation and and I'd be shaking and nervous, you know. And um eventually I think a lot of a lot of these challenges begin to mitigate a little just through the process of maturing, maturing, right? Like they'll be they'll be fine. Like my my thing when I'm working with a child that I really care about, like my own, you know, in my own family, is um it's uncomfortable for me to see them struggle or to be uncomfortable. So I want to like, I want to fix it right away, you know, and and I have to be reminded that they'll be fine. Like I I don't have to fix it today or even this year or even next year for them to be because I always think, well, how how is this gonna affect them when they're adults? Like, oh no, like when they're 20, this is gonna be a huge problem. Like, if they don't fix this now, this will be a big, a big problem. And I had a personal experience like that when I was 14. Uh a roommate of my brother's in college was getting his PhD in psychology, his master's and then PhD, and he chose me as his subject to do analysis on. And and And the sort of final conclusion that I got to read when I was 17 or so, right before I was going to college, was something to the effect of if I don't stop like living this Spartan existence, I was all about like high performance, like do everything 100% and da-da-da-da. And he goes, if I don't open up a little bit to emotions, I'm gonna end up being like a sociopath later in life. And I'm like, oh, okay, I better work on that. So I sort of allowed myself to like open up, which was messy, but it was it was really kind of awesome advice because eventually, you know, I think I think you would have been right. And it was kind of nice to get a little bit um a little bit more well-rounded, let's say. But it's the same, it's so I think, oh, that well, that's a unique experience. Not everybody gets a PhD done on their life. Um, but I try to translate that to and I go, well, if I just tell them just the right thing now, you know, it'll save them when they're an adult. But I think that's not like that's more my problem than theirs, right? Would you say, like, what do you think about time and patience?

SPEAKER_03 23:10

I think you said two things that I that I actually uh resonate with me. I actually say them frequently in my own work. And um one of the things I often tell parents is maturation is a beautiful thing. Um, and and I uh almost any client who sees me has heard me say that about kids because the reality is no one's perfect, kids are gonna have behavior. And there's some things that we just the brain just needs to mature. Like we're if I have a kid who has emotion regulation difficulty, I'm gonna teach those skills and we may plateau for a period of time. So we're gonna get to a point where like, this is how far I can grow right now, but then we hit these certain periods of development where the brain just changes rapidly, and all of a sudden I'll see this skill just, they just made a huge leap in like a few weeks when we've been kind of at the same place and managing it for a year or two. Um, and so we we really focus on what am I gonna manage versus and let maturation do its job. And what are the things that I'm going to make better? Um, and and sometimes success is not, oh, I've got rid of that symptom or my kid is behaving super well. Sometimes it is, wow, you know what? Our outbursts are shorter. Um, my my house isn't destroyed, you know? Yeah, we still have them and they happen on a daily basis, but I feel like I can manage it. And so I think that's one of the things is the goal needs to be realistic for where we are and how our brain is working right now. Um I think the other thing you said too is uh, am I doing this? Is this my problem? Or my child's problem or a child's problem? And that's another thing that I often will say it's you know, what are what are our motivations in managing behavior? Is it um, I want things to be better for my child, I want to see life be better for them. Usually it's a combination. Like when people come to me, it's uh, I want life better for my child, but also like I want it better for the rest of us too, because this is hard and it's okay that it's hard. But then there's other times where I was like, well, we're gonna work through this, like we're gonna let that behavior happen. And you know what? Maybe it's gonna happen in the grocery store. And it's and how are you feeling right now? You put it feel pretty uncomfortable because it's embarrassing. And there's people who are walking by making snide comments. People are staring at you. You're like, oh my gosh, is someone gonna call child protective services when I let my kid have this meltdown on the floor? And that's a really uncomfortable situation to have to work through some of these behaviors sometimes. And we have to choose to do that. So we choose to let go of control and be uncomfortable because at the end of the day, sometimes that's the best thing for our kids, too.

SPEAKER_01 26:11

Yeah, that's fascinating. I mean, I'm I'm I'm sure plenty of people I know I've been in that situation, right? And and all those thoughts. Oh my god, what if they think I'm, you know, this or that? Um I noticed something you you had um you know mentioned, uh, and I want to kind of touch on it a little bit more, and that is like what to do when interventions fail, right? What do you do when things work really good in therapy and then it happens on the outside world?

SPEAKER_03 26:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:48

How do you deal with that?

SPEAKER_03 26:50

Yeah, and this is this is one of my favorite things to talk about. I'm gonna be honest. So if I start getting a little too nerdy out, you go, you go.

SPEAKER_01 26:59

This is this is very this is very helpful stuff.

SPEAKER_03 27:03

So the first thing is uh we're actually a lot of our clients that come to us have done a lot of therapies. They're like, oh my gosh, I did all the evidence-based things. They said I did um, you know, parent-child interaction therapy, which works for a lot of families, right? And they're like, it's we we got to a point we didn't get better, or things like that. And so there's a few things that I start with parents and and really start with, you know, we really want to, first of all, shift blame away from from family, families or something and the providers, or it's not like the provider didn't do their job, or parents didn't do their job, or the kids deficit. It's we need to make sure that the system fits. We need to make sure that the intervention fits and the things that we do in an office can come home. And so that's one of the things a lot of people find is they're like, my kid, we do these sessions, we're getting the coaching and everything's going great. And then I kind of try to do it at home and it's not the same. And we know that what's happening around us changes behavior. And so when I go home, when I'm in a therapy session, it's me and my kid, or maybe both parents and a kid, but then I go home, I've got two other kids and a dog and a job and all these other things going on. And during that therapy session, the TV's not available, the tablet's not available, but at home it is. So that's a fight. I haven't had to learn how to fight. And so one of the things that I first of all tell people is like we need to think about what is making it work in that therapy environment and how do we bring it home. And so that doesn't mean quit your job and get rid of your other kids, right? That's that's not a rational choice. Uh, but it may be we need to shift our intervention so we're doing the same thing in a different way. So I think about like um giving attention is and and building, we we call it building rapport or building that relationship is the first step in parent-child um interventions. And so a lot of therapy protocols focus on something called special time where you spend one-on-one time with your kid for you know five to 15 minutes a day, and it can be really impactful. And some families, that's not the best way to do it. Maybe your child needs a little bit more attention sprinkled throughout the day. And the issue isn't that you're not giving them enough attention, it's how they're getting it and when they're getting it. Um, you know, we can see that maybe my child only has uh this problem behavior, not when I'm not giving them attention, it's when somebody else has my attention. So, you know, we have the new baby brother, and baby brother is getting all the attention, and I'm like, whoa, hey, what's going on? And so we want to one thing we want to look at is how can we build that into our therapy uh environments as well, what we're gonna see at home. The other cool thing is, you know, we have all these cool technologies um where we can bring therapy into the home, right? So, you know, telehealth is a beautiful thing. We do coaching, we can kind of hide and pretend like we're not there, so we don't have that same reactivity.

SPEAKER_01 30:12

Kids often behave better when other people are I was gonna say the the one thing I was gonna ask about because I've seen this are the kids that are clever enough to know how to say all the right things to the therapist, you know, to to to like win, to win the game, to get a high score. Like I'm totally cool. And then, right? That's so challenging.

SPEAKER_03 30:31

Yeah. And and there's ways that we can be more covert, right? Uh or or hide uh with with the telehealther. Um, for some of the interventions we do for some of the profiles we see are a little bit more in intensive. So many hours a week for some of our clients. Um, when when you're in someone's home that many hours a week, the kids get used to you and you get to see everything too.

SPEAKER_01 30:53

Totally, right? It's it's a whole different story when you spend spend a lot of time with the kid. The other thing I wanted to ask you before I forget as well is like, you know, and you were starting to touch on it here with like telehealth, but you know, what for maybe people who who can't find a good therapist or really can't, you know, like don't just can't fit that in somehow resource-wise or time-wise or whatever, you know, good resources online or apps or anything like that that that can be helpful or games? Like, is there are there good things that you can kind of sneak this in, if you know what I mean? Without or even have the kid doing it themselves and not even realize it's therapeutic.

SPEAKER_03 31:34

Yeah. Yeah. And so some of it does depend a little bit on um what's underlying, right? So is this just like, hey, it's just a parenting thing, right? And we don't have any kind of like ADHD or or anxiety or things like that, or maybe it's just those normal everyday stressors like new kids, a new pet, um, starting school uh that people work through, but they still are stressors and stressful. Um, I will often recommend just kind of basic um parenting books and and apps. There's some really cool things that are coming up. Uh, what I do tell people is please don't use Chat GPT. That is not a good therapist.

SPEAKER_02 32:13

Don't use three.

SPEAKER_03 32:14

Stay away from chat. Um, Claude, you know, A AI is not a good therapist. Um, but it's really focusing on and and reading through books and apps that have three components. And that is is there a piece that has a relationship building piece to this? So if there's not a relationship building piece, you're missing 50% of the equation, right? We have to have connection to have um for these things to work. Uh the second piece is are we focused on building skills, right? On dealing with things. So even, you know, starting school, it's stressful. I have a kid who's anxious and worried about it. Well, I need to build the skills to manage my worry. The goal is not a good thing.

SPEAKER_01 32:56

It's like a muscle, right? You have to you really do have to practice exercise it if you will.

SPEAKER_03 33:01

Yeah, you do. And things like self-control. Um, and I always say it's life is uncomfortable, and the people who seem to um be the most successful, and and when I say success, I'm not just talking like best jobs, most money. It's it's those who are mental health, happy with their lives are people who choose to be uncomfortable when it's worth it. And so that's a muscle too, uh being able to be uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_01 33:28

And so comfortable with the discomfort, basically.

SPEAKER_03 33:31

Yep, yep. And it's that is a key piece of pretty much any therapy program as well. So it's skill building. We're we're focusing on on those things uh to help kids build the skills they need to be successful in the environments they choose. And then the last piece for like parenting um is some guidance on what to do when problem behaviors occur, because they will. And um there's a lot of ways you can manage problem behavior, and some of them are uh there's there's a lot of correct ways. There's also some things that we don't want to do, you know. And uh those don't usually end up in apps and books, is the good news, uh, for the most part, you know. No, because we we we don't want to, you know, corporal punishment or you know, things like that. We yeah. Um, but there are some things like how do we manage that situation when everyone's a little bit heightened and you know, uh neurodivergent kids usually have neurodivergent parents. And you know, it's it's how how do we help everybody stay calm? Maybe that is simple as we're gonna separate and we're gonna put in a plan for what we're gonna do when problem behavior occurs, because then we can we can be more logical and thoughtful in how we approach uh discipline instead of reactive and emotional. Because when we're reactive and emotional, that's where we tend to have uh breaks in our relationship and do things that are ineffective.

SPEAKER_01 35:01

Right. So this is muscle building as well. This is like muscle building for the parents, for everyone involved.

SPEAKER_02 35:07

Yes, you've had to practice these things, very accurate.

SPEAKER_00 35:17

So interesting.

SPEAKER_01 35:17

Have you ever looked into how let's say like in indigenous cultures or or primit, you know, like still somewhat primitive cultures manage this? And is there neurodivergence in those cultures to the degree that there is in ours? I I'm just curious, like, right, because they you know, they don't have necessarily the technologies and the the PhDs and in in in and research and in in these studies, but uh I'm curious if there if there's any that are really effective at it that people have looked at.

SPEAKER_03 35:55

Yeah, and when we're looking at um, you know, are these uh conditions more or less prevalent and in other cultures? I will say the US has some of the higher incidence and prevalence rates of mental health concerns in like Europe, European um countries and such, we do see uh differences, you know, in more like um Eastern philosophy or more indigenous cultures where these things might be a little bit lower. Now, the question is, are they lower because we're not uh diagnosing them and labeling them? Um, or is there an environmental effect as well? And you know, I think about kind of like collectivist versus more individualistic cultures like we have it here in the US. I will say I I love and I find it really fascinating for some cultures, and I think about um some of our indigenous uh peoples here in the US, even in Alaska, um, some really cool ways of that are that are really effective parenting practices that fall culturally into what we're trying to do and teach people. And one of the things that I remember reading is like um for a lot of these cultures, like reacting in anger is is like that's a very childish thing to do. And they teach patience and essentially value emotion regulation and cooperation and patience with their children. And when you have patience, the behavior can work its way out. It's when we're trying to control it sometimes that we can throw gasoline on the fire, so to say.

SPEAKER_01 37:43

Well, we live in a faster-paced society, right? We don't like I've got to get to work in 10 minutes. I'm only like like this has got to stop now, otherwise I'm it's fascinating, isn't it?

SPEAKER_03 37:53

Yeah, and it's it's funny too, because I I even see that for myself, you know. Um, we we had a period of time where things we were really struggling with getting to school with my youngest, and I was I'm a I get anxious about time. I do not like to be late, never have. Uh, I have a sister who has the opposite problem, but it would cause me anxiety then too. And I would realized as my child was having more difficulty, I was getting anxious and agitated and showing that as well, and throwing gasoline on the fire. Right. Um and so I I I'm very fortunate, not everybody can do this, but I was able to rearrange my schedule. So my I gave myself an hour buffer, and so I did not have to be rushing to work, and it would give me the opportunity to work through that behavior. And we we had some additional supports and things to help along with the way with that. But we were, I'm not saying that our mornings are perfect, but it allowed us the opportunity to i I don't think if I had not made that change, I don't know that we would be successful.

SPEAKER_01 39:13

Yeah. This uh it it comes back to this like no no blaming thing. I realize I'm kind of piecing this together in terms of um two things. One, the the time issue. There's a there's a anecdote from my Cairo, indigenous Peruvian Cairo tribe that I've studied my shamanism with. And um one of the one of the one of the anecdotes is they say, you know, you westerners, you you own your land, you own stuff, but time owns you. Gotta get on get there on time, or you lose your job, you gotta get there on time, or some, you know. And um, and they go, We we are stewards of the land. The land owned uh owns us, but we own time. Synchronicity. If if I'm late, they'll be late. So no big deal. It all works out. Like it's this whole, it's this flip that allows them, you know, eminently to be patient, right? Like they don't they don't have the issue because they're not owned by time. Our whole society is. So I think I I bring this up because it's like, man, you know, we're already handicapped, we're already challenged, just functioning as humans, period, relative to like some of these more isolated indigenous cultures, um with with you know, being able to do all this stuff you're talking about, like just just being able to stop in the moment and like shift, shift your perspective or calm down, or go, oh well, you know, I I've got to rearrange my schedule to do the right thing for my child. I mean, it's and so I I think it's I don't know, I'm making this statement, you know, that maybe for the listeners and that you know, I think if people can recognize that we're already living in sort of an unnatural world, society that we've you know, we've created over probably a couple thousand years, if not longer, um that it's not all on you. You know what I mean? Like this isn't anything you necessarily did wrong. Um, gosh, not to mention, without, you know, like I I try to avoid controversy if I can, but you know, like when you said environmental right, you go, well, a lot of people think, you know, it's vaccines, right, caused all this. I I don't tend to think that so much. But I do suspect, and and maybe this is my own like conspiratorial controversy, but it's like that things like uh glyphosate, let's say, you know, these these neurotoxin type things that are meant to kill bugs that we started using like at a date and time that literally was when a lot of this stuff started to ramp. And I know how it affects me personally when I'm around it. I really messes me up when I'm someone's been spraying it. And and so it just makes it makes you wonder in addition to our society, some of these like actual chemical-based environmental things that we eat, we consume, we do, I mean, that stuff's everywhere. Um, you know, for example, uh doesn't also have an impact. And it I mean, it's the problem with saying something like this and delving and dipping my toe into this controversial stuff is that like what are you gonna like what can you really do about it, right? Like pretty much nothing. Like there's not like we're not all gonna move out into the woods in some isolated place. They're now spraying glyphosate in forest, like to stop in California to stop, you know, it's like oh, oh my god, you know, like you can't even live out in the woods. Um what do you think about that?

SPEAKER_03 43:00

Like, I don't want I don't want to put you on the spot and have you go to the controversial place, but it's like well, I think one thing that that you said that's that's really important is like there's some of it we can control and some of it we can't, right? So the the reality is, you know, for for me, I'm a very privileged person. I I can choose where I resource my food, I can choose, you know, I I I have a a hydroponic garden, honestly, in my kitchen. But I'm a very privileged person, I can do that. Uh families I've worked with historically, you know, they live out in like western Kansas, and it's amazing how you can live in farmland and be in a food desert. And so maybe you're relying more on certain like canned foods and and things like that. And that's I I grew up in western Kansas most of my life, and just what we had available and how we sourced our food and everything was different. And it's one of those things where I was like, okay, what are the things we can control? I do think things like if we do have the opportunity to control some things like diet can be helpful, right? And even if I just think about, you know, super ultra-processed foods have lots of sugar, not a lot of good nutrients, or um, I see some kids where it's like, you know what, we need to be eating at certain times because if we're hungry, we're hangry and we're mean. And so, but what would be some of the things that we eat and and what are some of the things that we can avoid? So um I do come back to that. There's a lot of things that are not regulated in the US that are also regulated elsewhere in the world.

unknown 44:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 44:38

And I think there's some there's some data to support that they're not great for us.

SPEAKER_01 44:44

No, no, right, right. But you know, I'll tell I'll tell you what, this is interesting because I'll it's personal again as well, that when I was um growing up, uh I I won't I won't say the date, but suffice it to say it was um mid-last century, um, roughly. Um nobody knew anything like about any of this stuff, right? And I was definitely one of the I was no doubt on an autism spectrum, part of being a shaman and being sensitive and all these things. Um and my diet, I ate for breakfast, and and I don't blame my parents because some of this was secretive, but um I ate uh virtually a box of apple jacks for breakfast. At lunch, I would trade in my I wouldn't use my lunch money, I would just eat somebody's bologna sandwich that they didn't want to eat from their parents. And then on my way home, I would buy five Winchels donuts with my lunch money and eat those before I got home. And then all the kids would go to the candy store at three o'clock. Worst, you know, and maybe a little bit of something for dinner and then a hot fudge Sunday for dessert every night. So I I was I was living on the worst possible stuff you could possibly live on, and I suffered for it. I had massive headaches at certain parts of the day that were debilitating. I couldn't move, I had to lay on the couch. Nobody, you know, like nobody knew what was gonna like nobody knew what was going on, right? So it wasn't like anybody could do anything about it. My parents didn't know what to do. I was still doing good in school because the sugar obviously like boosted my performance, I'm sure, when I needed it. Um, you know, like being on meth or something. And um, but you know, at by age, I think by age 14, I started bodybuilding. I wanted to like, you know, be like Arnold Schwarzenegger, basically. And um, and it was part of that was diet, and it was like give up all sugar and everything. So I went on these like six meals a day, like all protein, cold turkey, everything else I was just telling you about. And it and it uh it made all the difference in the world. Again, nobody studying it, nobody knew. I didn't even pay attention to why I didn't have headaches anymore or whatever. And I'm I think I'm fine. Like I my body, I think, you know, which is who maybe I'm not, but my body seemed to recover. And I bring all this up because in spite of the challenges environmentally we just talked about, in spite of whether we're our diets been good or not, these changes um we will adapt, like our bodies will fix themselves, right? Like it takes time, takes patience. But I think people need to understand they didn't ruin, like, I don't think my parents thought they ruined me by not paying closer attention to what I was putting in my mouth. It was challenging, but uh you can you can recover.

SPEAKER_03 47:57

Yeah, and I I think that's true for for most things, right? It's um even from a more mental health perspective. Um, I I would love to say that I've never yelled at my children. I have perfect patience and and everything, but you know, I'm human and um also had to learn uh patience, and it's something I have to practice uh to get better at every day because I'm still also making changes. And it's one of those things where that one time or those times that I'm I don't do it right isn't gonna ruin my child, right? Um, and I can always do better tomorrow. And it doesn't mean that I don't need to go back and apologize when I make a mistake, but it's not gonna most things are not going to ruin them or be uh something you're unable to jump jump bounce back from.

SPEAKER_01 48:51

Yeah, that's cool. You know what um how do you practice patience when you don't need to be patient? Is there a way to do that? Is there a way like because you know I always say this, like it you it, it's if you wait till the crisis to practice meditation, you're it's too late. Like you gotta do it, you gotta practice when things are good to develop the muscle for when things am I right? So how do you how do you do that? How do you what's a good practice for patients?

SPEAKER_03 49:21

Yeah, I think one of the things is learning to sit with being uncomfortable and still speak with your thoughts, right? So making our actions more purposeful and aligned with our values instead of our reactions. So one of the things that I I recommend is you know taking that break instead of using our time and having to fill all of our time with something or like, oh, I have some, I have 15 minutes in the waiting room, I'll scroll on my phone, right? It's sitting and just being sometimes. And it's something where I've actually had some of my best moments just working on being present. And that present moment mindfulness is not necessarily like an act of meditation, it can be like what's going on around me and um why is it important?

SPEAKER_01 50:16

So just stay a little longer in the moment.

SPEAKER_03 50:18

Stay a little longer in the moment.

SPEAKER_01 50:20

That's really good. Uh don't and when you're angry, don't necessarily punch punch the thing. You you you are you you're you have the taekwondo. I also studied um martial art. And so um the punching bag is sometimes like a go-to um thing, but like I've realized that if maybe it's better to uh not react right away, right?

SPEAKER_03 50:48

Just just let it and and that was one of the yeah, when I was in martial arts and actively uh working on my um black belt and everything, that's the thing that I really pulled away was actually more of that um, you know, those the cultures where these things are developed, they focus on control and being okay with being you and um not reacting. And it's like you know, you have these skills, but you know, the forms and everything are about breathing and being in the moment and feeling your body and using it more so than you know, using it to to beat somebody up, right? Um there is that piece too.

SPEAKER_01 51:28

Like I definitely we did our kick well defense or whatever naturally, right? But I I think one of the values of it for me along those lines is is um and um this also comes with working with animals and stuff like horses too, but it's like learning to relax more when things are spinning out of control. In other words, do the opposite, like someone's coming at you, relax. Then you can react quickly enough to be effective. If you're tightened up, you're too slow, you're gonna get beat up, type of thing. So it's like that's kind of an interesting skill, too, right? When things are amping up, go do the opposite. This is like if you're in the horse, like I used to ride horses and do dressage and all this kind of stuff. And it was the same thing. If the horse starts jumping around, you just go limp, you just relax. So the horse gets the cue. Oh, if you tighten up, it's like game over, right? Because then it goes, Whoa, there is something wrong. Okay. And does that work for kids?

SPEAKER_03 52:35

You know, if it's amazing how kids can definitely sense like you're getting agitated, right? And and I work with kids with varying abilities. Um, some are less verbal than others, and it's it's amazing, kind of like the how people can fight feed off of that energy, right? And if you're getting agitated, they're coming up with you, or they know that they're getting your agitated. And I have some kids who like a show, so you know, they're like, Yeah, I can control you.

SPEAKER_01 53:05

Right. God, that's so uh that's just huge, you know. It is it's so true. Um, wow.

SPEAKER_00 53:13

Good stuff.

SPEAKER_01 53:14

You know, we we have a few minutes, and I thought maybe um if you'd like to, you know, offer some concluding kind of, you know, uh thoughts or suggestions or wisdom for the listeners. Again, where where can they go? What can they look for? Where could they start? We'll we'll we'll put all your links um you know on this and stuff so that people can look look you up if that's you know if that's okay and and whatnot. But um, yeah, what what do you and and did you did you did you write a book or no?

SPEAKER_03 53:52

Ah that makes sense. But you have focus.

SPEAKER_01 53:55

Yeah. I know. It's anyway, yeah. But um, but you have you have some resources people can can look at.

SPEAKER_03 54:05

Yeah, so I think if I were to, you know, say all of the things, it's number one is focus uh on relationship first, right? It's good things start with good relationships, and you need to have positive moments and positive interactions to build your foundation. Um, and so without that foundation, we're not getting anywhere.

SPEAKER_01 54:28

Focus on the within relationship, focus on the goods, what's good, what's good, what's good.

SPEAKER_03 54:33

Yep. Um recognize that patience is absolutely necessary because we're not going to make changes or change behavior in the moment. We change it over time. And some of that is working through it and letting it be what it is. Um and I think the last thing is that we don't have to control everything. You know, it's okay um to let behavior happen and let things move along, and that we're probably not going to ruin our children in a single moment. And as long as we have that good foundation and relationship to build on, we likely our our kids can grow up to be successful adults.

SPEAKER_01 55:14

Amazing. Thank you. I really appreciate that. I think your screen might have froze, but I think we're okay. Can't control everything. Can't you know? I'm uncomfortable, but it'll be okay.

SPEAKER_03 55:31

We'll see if I can turn it off and on, but yeah, there you go.

SPEAKER_01 55:36

Okay. So thank you so much, Katrina, for all that wonderful wisdom. And I really appreciate you taking the time. And um, yeah, it very it's it seems I think people can make it simple. It doesn't have to be like I think people get overwhelmed. Like you were like we started out by saying, like, there's so much information, there's so many Instagram people out there doing telling you to do this and do that. And it's like I get overwhelmed, which one should I do? But I love the three things, you know, basically you just listed, which are at the core. Like, how do we filter out? Just as a concluding thought here. What would be the what would what advice would you give people for like not trying to do everything everyone suggests?

SPEAKER_03 56:32

Yeah, I I think really, I mean, focus on that relationship is really the biggest piece. Um honestly, if I could get rid of all the Pinterest parenting and everything, I I think you know, people are gonna display the best of themselves, not the worst, but everybody's messy, you know, and that's okay. This because that's human, right? And we want that.

SPEAKER_01 56:56

It's okay that it's messy.

SPEAKER_03 56:57

I love that.

SPEAKER_01 56:59

It's very shamanic. I tell people that all the time. The jungle is messy, the jungle hurts you sometimes, the jungle helps you like it's it's not perfect. Nothing's ever a hundred percent pleasurable and comfortable, it's messy, it's okay.

SPEAKER_03 57:14

Yeah, and some of the best stuff comes during the uncomfortable yeah, somehow humanity's made it 300,000 years.

SPEAKER_01 57:22

I don't think we can mess it up so much that we can't, we're not gonna keep going. I think we're gonna keep going.

SPEAKER_03 57:28

Yeah, I think so too.

SPEAKER_01 57:31

Yeah, and we got a lot to learn from, I think, these these children. I did a talk one time on autism and how like a lot of times the kids are just coming in showing us like, hey, you guys gotta make some changes here. We're not gonna tolerate it anymore like your generation did.

SPEAKER_03 57:48

Yeah, and I think there's so much um so much value that every person brings, you know, and and what we can learn. And and that's one of the things that I think about, especially with the populations that I'll often work with, is um how what am I learning? You know, what those people bring a lot of value to my life. And so, yeah, and I try to focus on that.

SPEAKER_01 58:14

That's amazing. Yeah, I love that. Pay attention to what they're teaching you. Look at yourself, not just them. They what seems like a problem might be a real lesson for you. So for the parent or the adult. Great, thank you again. Uh, I really appreciate it, and I hope um, you know, people can can look further into your work and and uh it's been really enlightening for me.

SPEAKER_03 58:40

Well, thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_01 58:42

Absolutely. All right, take care.

SPEAKER_03 58:44

You too.

SPEAKER_01 58:45

Bye.