5 FAQs About Neuroscience

In this episode of 5 FAQs, we’re joined by Simon Spichak to explore what neurotransmitters are and how they interact with the brain. Then, we take a deep dive into trauma, stress, social media and how they impact mental health. 

THE 5 FAQs WE WILL ANSWER: 
1.  What are some misconceptions about how the brain functions in relation to mental health? 

2. How does brain chemistry influence mental health conditions, and what implications does this have for treatment options?  

3. How do stress and trauma impact brain function and contribute to mental health challenges?  

4. How can therapists incorporate brain biology into their treatment plans to better support their clients?  

5. What are some emerging research findings about the brain that are shaping our approach to mental health care? 

Learn more about EHN Canada and starting your own mental health treatment journey at ehncanada.com.

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Transcript

Jonathan Friedman (He/Him) (00:08)
Hey there, my name is Jonathan Friedman and you are listening to the Five FAQs podcast by EHN Canada. This is the show where we scour the internet for the most frequently asked questions about mental health and addiction and ask an expert for their answers to them. Today it is my honor and my distinct privilege and my pleasure to introduce you to my special guest, Simon Spichak. Simon Spichak is the founder of a low cost mental health clinic in Canada called Resolve. He's also a freelance science and tech reporter with a Masters of Science in neuroscience.

His work is featured across news outlets including Being Patient, New York Times, Atmos Earth, TVO Today, and The Daily Beast. He can usually be found drinking coffee, which we gotta get into a little bit, or hanging out with his hedgehog. Simon, welcome to the show, how are you doing?

Simon (00:54)
Hello Jonathan, thanks for having me. Just finished my second cup of coffee for the day. It was delicious and I'm ready to get into all the FAQs

Jonathan Friedman (He/Him) (01:06)
Amazing, amazing. And what kind of coffee was it?

Simon (01:09)
So I ordered from a place called Social Coffee. Basically what I like to do with my coffee is I go for light roasts and single origin coffees. Basically that means you know exactly what farm, cooperative or collective they're coming from. So they're more traceable, usually they taste better and the work conditions on those farms are more sustainable. So you're supporting good coffee, you're drinking good coffee.

And just in general, light roasts have a much richer flavor profile, which I really enjoy more so than medium and dark roasts. And the nice thing here is sometimes you order a light roast and you see the beans and it's actually medium or dark roast, but this was actually a light roast.

Jonathan Friedman (He/Him) (01:55)
amazing. And pour over or AeroPress, where do you stand?

Simon (02:00)
I use a V60 pour over.

Jonathan Friedman (He/Him) (02:03)
Okay, here we go. That's how you know you're serious.

Simon (02:06)
Well, by the time this podcast comes out, I'll probably have an article in BBC about the science of coffee flavor and how all of these things actually affect how the coffee tastes.

Jonathan Friedman (He/Him) (02:14)
heck yeah.

Amazing. Well, you got to share that with me. I'd love to read it. I love coffee too. But today, today we're not talking about coffee. We're talking about the brain -body connection. We're talking about mental health. We have a lot to cover. Are you ready to get down to the nitty -gritty and get into these five of the most frequently asked questions on the internet about neuroscience?

Simon (02:41)
Yeah, for sure. I'm excited to get started.

Jonathan Friedman (He/Him) (02:44)
Heck yeah. So Simon, are you ready for question number one?

Simon (02:49)
Yeah, yeah, go for it.

Jonathan Friedman (He/Him) (02:51)
Go for it? All right, cool. What are some prevalent misconceptions about how the brain functions in relation to mental health? How can we clarify these misunderstandings?

Simon (03:01)
I think a lot of times things are oversimplified and sometimes it's good to make things a little simpler so people can understand, but sometimes they're oversimplified to the point where you get into a lot of misunderstandings. So something that I want to talk about is the idea of a dopamine detox. And this became a really popular trend a few years ago,

the idea is that sometimes we become used to something that's, you know, a bit of a bad habit, like always checking your social media every five minutes, or maybe watching YouTube videos nonstop or something else that you sort of want to quit. And the idea behind that is you're addicted to doing these behaviors because every time you do them, you get a hit of this neurotransmitter called

dopamine in your brain and you get so attuned to it that you're always looking for that next dopamine hit and basically depriving yourself of these things and going on what's called a fast or a cleanse for a weekend or for a week. You basically don't touch your phone, don't touch YouTube, don't touch the thing that you know was previously bringing you lots of joy but lots of problems and then this is supposed to help reset your brain's neurochemistry.

Now there are so many different things wrong with the idea of dopamine detoxes. So while learning and practicing how to self -regulate your behaviors is probably good for you, the problem is it might have nothing to do with dopamine and some of the ways that are sold to you through a dopamine detox might actually be a little harmful or not nearly as helpful.

You know, usually it's a lot easier to wean off of things little by little rather than going cold turkey because there's a larger chance that if you try to go without your phone for a little while and just, you know, stop looking at it for a few days when you come back, you're going to want to look at it some more rather than building a habit where you're gradually relying less and less on your cell phone. Now, one of the major things

that really bugs me with the idea of a dopamine detox is that dopamine is positioned as this reward neurotransmitter or chemical in the brain. The thing is, we hear a lot about, this is the happy chemical serotonin, but neurotransmitters don't have an inherent function. So these are signaling chemicals in the brain and what they do doesn't actually depend on the chemical.

Jonathan Friedman (He/Him) (05:39)
hmmmm.

Simon (05:51)
whether that's dopamine, whether that's serotonin, whether that's acetylcholine, which is another common neurotransmitter. So what actually matters is where this signaling molecule binds to. So in our brain, we have lots of cells called neurons, and they're the ones that send the electrical signals between each other and release these chemical transmitters. They also have little proteins on their bodies called receptors.

and each receptor fits a very specific signaling molecule. So you have lots of different kinds of receptors for dopamine in lots of different parts of the brain. And the effect of dopamine is going to depend on what that receptor tells the cell to do. So some dopamine receptors, depending on where they are, are going to have a different effect. The other thing that makes it

a lot more complicated is for a long time, the dominant theory behind how dopamine works is that it was sort of an expectation and a reward. So, you you want to get lots of likes on your latest post on Instagram and, you know, your body sort of incentivizes you. You're going to post. And then once you get the thousand likes, you're going to get a huge dopamine hit.

Jonathan Friedman (He/Him) (07:12)
Mm

Simon (07:15)
and that's going to be your reward and that keeps you driving. A of those ideas come from studies in mice and rats because you can't actually open up someone's head and look at the neurochemicals in their brain. And right now there's a lot of researchers doing studies that are testing out what dopamine actually does. And there's a lot of conflict in terms of whether we need to actually change the way we think about dopamine

Jonathan Friedman (He/Him) (07:43)
So we're like, you know, you hear a lot about like, you know, getting a sweet dopamine hit, chasing dopamine, this idea of a dopamine detox. But what you're saying is that it's really a lot more complicated that it's not even like, that it's just dopamine. All of these different neurotransmitters connect with each other and with molecules in different parts of our bodies in many, many different ways. And looking at it through that lens is kind of problematic if you just look at it like just chasing dopamine in that way.

Simon (08:12)
For

sure. Ultimately, we don't really know what dopamine in each part of the brain does and how it incentivizes certain behaviors. Yeah, the other really big thing I wanted to touch on is the idea that social media is directly causing a mental health crisis. These conclusions are based out of a lot of misinterpreted data that are being pushed in a really popular science book written by

Jonathan Haidt and a lot of is presented in a really scary way that sensationalizes a lot of scientific data to ultimately help sell this idea and sell a lot of books but you know the actual studies are looking at mental health in kids and how that relates to social media is a lot more nuanced and I'll send a link to a commentary by a researcher who does a lot of this work that's talking about some of the problems

So one recent study was an analysis done in 72 countries and they found no consistent or measurable associations between well -being and the rollout of social media. And they were able to measure it because different social media came out at different times in different countries. They also took a look at whether using social media leads to changes in the brain that you can see in the brain scan.

and they found no evidence of any drastic changes happening directly as a result of digital tech or social media. So there are some studies that do show that social media might be bad for you or might be good for you. So for example, in people that already have some conditions like eating disorders or depression or anxiety, if you're a young kid, social media can actually worsen that for you. But there are also lots of communities where social media is incredibly beneficial.

people with conditions like long COVID or other kinds of diseases, who aren't able to go about their daily lives or people who want to talk with people across the world are able to build really meaningful connections using social media. So is social media causing the mental health crisis? No. Could social media be bad for you?

It could could be good for you. Yeah, it could.

Jonathan Friedman (He/Him) (10:35)
It depends.

In another episode or in a couple of other episodes of this show, actually were talking about it from more of a psychological lens where you're scrolling and like, let's take diagnosis for an example. How many TikToks do you come across where?

People are saying, yeah, if you have these five things, you have ADHD. And it's kind of touching on like, there's like a disinformation piece about it, it can be harmful in that way. But talking about it in sort of a behavioral addiction lens is kind of interesting. And it sounds like what you're saying is that a lot of studies show that there's no specific proof that social media directly does harm, although there's probably a lot more to learn about it. But if you have other...

factors in your life like an anxiety disorder, eating disorder, a lot of the things in social media around body image or those kind of contexts can cause extra harm. Awesome. Super interesting. Let's roll in to question number two which is how does brain chemistry influence mental health conditions? What implications does this have for different treatment options?

Simon (11:33)
Mm -hmm. Yeah, definitely.

So this is a very complicated question. So a lot of times you might hear a very simplistic and incorrect explanation that a lot of mental health disorders are caused by a chemical imbalance in the brain. It's actually very hard to take someone while they're alive and measure all of the chemicals in their brain and figure out if they're balanced or not. There's also lots of different things, including the protein receptors and

Genetics that influence what's going on with mental health. So it's very difficult to say exactly how brain chemistry Influences mental health conditions. I've written a bit about the controversy surrounding this for the Daily Beast about a year and a half ago and there's a small vocal minority of researchers who argue that mental health doesn't exist as an actual diagnosis because we've actually never measured these chemical imbalances

So basically a lot of the debate rages on because initially when people were studying depression, what they thought was that this one chemical, serotonin, was the main culprit. In the 60s, we discovered that there were drugs that might help people who are depressed or who have anxiety, and these drugs happened to work on the serotonin system. So a lot of people began to think maybe it's a problem with serotonin.

Maybe it's a chemical imbalance there. And now most really good doctors know that there's a lot of genetic, social, and biological factors that can contribute to these conditions. It's not just whether you have enough serotonin or whether you have enough brain chemicals. Some of this stems from, you know, advertisements for drugs that came around in the 80s when, you know,

Jonathan Friedman (He/Him) (13:21)
Mm

Simon (13:47)
they wanted a really simple narrative to explain how these drugs work. So now we have a lot of drugs that influence different brain chemicals, but we aren't exactly sure how they work. Does that really mean that we shouldn't take these treatments? Well, depending on the study you look at, between five to 50 % of people might respond to therapy and drugs, so they can definitely be

helpful for some people, but we don't know if that's because they work on serotonin or brain chemicals, whether they affect the microbiome, whether they do a little bit of this and a little bit of that. And you know, it might sound a little scary, but there's lots of drugs we take every day, like Tylenol, for example, which is acetaminophen, which we don't know exactly how it works. And there's also some evidence that from some psychological studies that Tylenol can actually affect

the brain and behavior. There's also been lots of diseases throughout history, like multiple sclerosis, where a small minority of vocal critics argued that the disease wasn't real because people couldn't find out, you know, the right biomarker, the right part of their biology, where they could point to and say there's something wrong. But eventually people figured out what was going on there. So even though we can't say that mental health conditions are caused by a chemical imbalance,

even though we don't know exactly what causes each case of anxiety or depression, and we know that it's really complicated, you know, some different disorders like obsessive -compulsive disorder, genetics can play a larger role, just because we don't know exactly what's going on, doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. And also just because we don't know exactly how certain medications or treatments work, doesn't mean that these treatments are

Jonathan Friedman (He/Him) (15:30)
Mm

Simon (15:44)
dangerous or you shouldn't take them.

Jonathan Friedman (He/Him) (15:47)
So like neurotransmitters,

sounds like there's a sense that we know that neurotransmitters play roles and the roles they play is very complex and the way they intermingle with each other and with different molecules in different parts of your body, it sounds like it's likely that they do, but it sounds like it's really complex and that we don't quite understand yet or know how all of these different things work.

So things like chasing dopamine or a dopamine detox is interesting because is that really what we're doing? Like, do we really know that that's the thing that solves the diagnosis or things like that?

Simon (16:23)
Exactly.

Exactly, like a dopamine detox might help, but there might be better ways to frame this, right?

Jonathan Friedman (He/Him) (16:36)
So

knowing how complex everything is, like...

What advice do you give for people on their mental health journey? Knowing like, okay, we don't really quite know how all this stuff works. We know that there's genetic markers. We know that there's social determinant factors. We know there's neurotransmitter factors. How do people start to make sense of this against all of the different information they're always taking in and say, yeah, I think I need to go and try therapy. I think I need to go for this. How do they know what problem they're solving?

Simon (17:09)
I think the thing that people should do is not get bogged down in the weeds and in the details. The most important thing is to find yourself a therapist or a doctor that listens to your concerns, that wants to work with you, that doesn't minimize or downplay your symptoms. And that's open to trying, you know, different evidence -based techniques, whether they're therapy or whether they're treatments, and listen along with you to see

if things are working so that you can adjust what is and what isn't working because internally it's almost impossible to figure out what's going on in your brain when something works or when something doesn't work. knowing all of this neuroscience, it's very cool, it's very confusing, and you don't necessarily need to know the nitty -gritty details of what's going on to get help. The most important thing is finding

the right support and not being afraid to, you know, fire a doctor or fire a therapist if they aren't helping you and find someone who can do a better job of listening to you and addressing your concerns.

Jonathan Friedman (He/Him) (18:20)
Amazing. Thank you for sharing that Simon. I think that's a really important point. There is all of the science and there is this kind of big pioneering movement to really understand the interplay of all of these things. But in a way, like it's still early days, it's still really complex and it's really important to focus on evidence -based treatment and going and accessing the right resources that have that evidence as opposed to getting bogged down in the nitty gritty.

Simon (18:49)
Right, I don't know how a car works. I can still drive a car because I took driving lessons and my driving lessons then go through, know, this is how you build a car from scratch. This is what every single part of the car does. It focused on the process of driving a car and how to do that safely and effectively. And I think that's a sort of analogy to therapy and treatment that you don't need to know what's going on in your head as long as you have the support to.

develop strategies to help you cope and treat the condition.

Jonathan Friedman (He/Him) (19:21)
I love that. We're gonna go a little more into that in our third question, which is, can we discuss how stress and trauma affect brain function and contribute to mental health challenges?

Simon (19:34)
Yeah, so there's a lot of ways that stress and trauma affect the brain. A lot of the research you originally get into from mouse and rat models, and also you can also do imaging studies where you put people in a brain scanner and you look at the brains of people with different conditions versus the brains of people who don't have these conditions. You can look at how different parts of the brain respond when you're faced with

a challenge or when you see an image that evokes something stressful or emotional for you. So stress and trauma rewire not just the emotional processing parts of the brain, but also the parts of the brain that are involved in higher order thinking. So stress and trauma can actually cause problems with memory, learning, and thinking abilities. And the prolonged stress caused by things like trauma,

abuse, neglect, terrible work situations, poverty, or even climate despair can have long lasting consequences, especially on the developing brain. So one of the regions that stress affects is called the amygdala. It's a walnut shaped region of the brain that's involved in emotional regulation, as well as, you know, helping integrate the emotional aspect of memory.

It also houses the fear circuits of the brain. So the amygdala communicates with other parts of the brain that are involved in thinking and higher order processing, like the prefrontal cortex. And those other parts of the brain can sometimes tell the amygdala, hey, I know you're kind of stressed out right now, but the situation isn't actually that bad. So we can manage that. So for example, if you're giving a talk and you're really nervous,

Jonathan Friedman (He/Him) (21:03)
Mm

Simon (21:28)
your amygdala might be going, my God, my God, my God, my God, I'm panicking. And your prefrontal cortex might be like, hey, you've prepared for this, you can do this. But when you get prolonged periods of stress or trauma, the amygdala can become really reactive to certain triggers and it can panic a lot more and become more overreactive.

Jonathan Friedman (He/Him) (21:50)
Mm -hmm.

Simon (21:56)
it's going to start telling your body that you're constantly in danger, even to minor situations, it can become a lot more sensitized. And the prefrontal cortex, which normally tells the amygdala that things aren't as bad, you can kind of tone down your activity. The prefrontal cortex, those connections become a little weaker, so the prefrontal cortex isn't able to tell the amygdala to sort of

Jonathan Friedman (He/Him) (22:05)
Mm

Simon (22:26)
knock down its activities and regulate the stress or the reaction to trauma better. And the other problem is you're messing with the part of the brain that's in charge of higher order thinking and cognitive processing. So you're going to end up with problems related to concentration, attention and learning. Right. So the other thing is stress releases a hormone called

cortisol from the adrenal glands in the kidneys which also has you know pretty bad effects throughout the brain and body if you're constantly experiencing stress. So it's going to increase your blood pressure and your heart rate. It's also going to affect the other parts of your brain that are involved with metabolism, processing emotions and the whole host of problems you're going to get. And your body is constantly going to be in

a fight or flight situation and when you're in the fight or flight situation, you're not going to be putting all of your energy into thinking, into learning, into other things. You're going to constantly be on high alert and that's going to have a profound impact.

Jonathan Friedman (He/Him) (23:26)
Thanks.

Yep.

That sounds like the science behind what I've been going through in my own time going to therapy, going through CBT and DBT cognitive behavioral therapy and dialectical behavioral therapy. It sounds like a lot of that work, and correct me if I'm wrong, is really getting the frontal cortex.

to process the information that, you know, like when I'm in fight or flight mode in exactly that way.

Simon (24:12)
Right,

right, and there's also exposure and response prevention therapy, which is really useful for things like obsessive -compulsive disorder and post -traumatic stress disorder, in which you're in a really safe environment with your therapist and you're gradually exposed to some of the things that might trigger your stress or your trauma in a really safe place so that your brain can relearn that

Jonathan Friedman (He/Him) (24:24)
Mm

Simon (24:39)
Okay, you're experiencing this trigger, you're experiencing, you know, these images or these sounds, but you're still in a safe place. And that's sort of how therapy works to rewire some of these bad connections so that you're not over sensitized to some of these stressors.

Jonathan Friedman (He/Him) (25:00)
Got it, that's awesome, thank you Simon. But like how can therapists incorporate, know like how, like are therapists taking this kind of neuroscience knowledge and like bringing it into their treatment plan? How like, when I go to therapy are they like, man, Jonathan's amygdala is really, really going off. Like we gotta like connect the dots better with the frontal cortex.

Simon (25:22)
You don't really need to know a lot about the biology to help someone with therapy. Again, it's sort of like driving a car. You don't need to know what, know, okay, this is exactly how the engine works and this is what each of the pistons do. For example, you need to know how to drive the car safely. So the therapist might not know the nitty gritty of what's happening in your head. I mean, no one can know that because we don't have the technology to see exactly what's going on in everyone's brains.

in real time, but what they do know is they know that there's certain evidence -based therapies like cognitive behavioral therapy or dialectical behavioral therapy that help rewire these circuits and that help you feel more comfortable and help reduce those symptoms. And they think it's a lot more important to focus on which therapy techniques are appropriate and work for the client rather than, you know, focusing on

my God, what's happening to their prefrontal cortex or amygdala, which, when I was in therapy, I didn't need to hear, there's a problem with your amygdala. Yeah, we'll get that amygdala fixed right up. know, you go, yeah, you go to therapy so that you can change some of your behaviors or some of your thought patterns and you don't need to know exactly what's going on in the brain.

Jonathan Friedman (He/Him) (26:22)
Yeah.

Yeah, plot twist, it's the brain that's the problem.

Simon (26:50)
To do that, I don't need to know how an engine works to make a left turn.

Jonathan Friedman (He/Him) (26:54)
Right, makes sense. I love that. So Simon, you obviously spend a lot of time researching, writing, doing the things you do. What are some emerging research findings about the brain that you believe could reshape our approach to mental health care?

Simon (27:10)
So something that a lot of pharmacologists, which are researchers that work with drugs and neuroscientists have been working on is figuring out how to tell if someone is going to respond to a particular treatment or not. So that's looking at different types of genetic markers or different bacteria that might be living in the gut that might help them provide a clue. Right now we don't.

really have an idea of you can go to your doctor, you can take this test, it'll tell you which treatment you'll respond to the most or which treatment might not work for you. That's a problem because a lot of people don't typically respond well to the first treatment that they receive. Sometimes there are side effects that might dissuade them from trying other treatments and in general it would save a lot of time if you could say, hey, there's no point in prescribing.

X because I know Y is going to work for me instead. Right? The other thing is what I studied in my masters, which was looking at the connections between the trillions of microorganisms, which are bacteria, viruses, fungi, and all hosts of cool little guys that live in our gut and how they affect the body's brain, the body's immune system.

Jonathan Friedman (He/Him) (28:08)
Right.

Simon (28:33)
of the effect of stress circuit and the back and forth communication between the microbiome and the brain. Because, you know, our genetics, those are very hard to change, but there's lots of stuff in the microbiome that we can change by changing the way we eat, by exercising, by sleeping more. There's a lot of very simple ways to change the microbiome, and it's just figuring out whether there's certain...

easy to do manipulations of the microbiome that we can make that can help our mental health and help us feel healthier. We're still a little ways away from that. There's no evidence yet that any one probiotic, prebiotic, or any other gut supplement is actually going to do anything for your mental health. Things are still in the earliest stages of research. So while there's some trials that might say,

Jonathan Friedman (He/Him) (29:14)
Mm

Simon (29:29)
x or y is promising. There's really nothing that says you should go out and get a probiotic for your mental health. It's not worth it. You can get the same benefits from eating lots of fruits, vegetables, colorful foods, nuts, things like that. And yeah, those are some of the things that I'm really excited about.

Jonathan Friedman (He/Him) (29:50)
So, yes there's therapy, yes there's a lot of emerging research about the brain, but what are other behavioral changes we can implement that are...

or food or diet focus that can help us in that journey to sort of turn things around. If I'm spending a lot of time being anxious, I'm not spending 24 hours a day necessarily in therapy. What are other things I can be doing throughout my day or with my diet that can help support that behavioral change that I'm working on in therapy that can support the amygdala and the frontal cortex connecting more, so on and so forth.

Simon (30:28)
I think it's just very simple things. If you find you're not sleeping, you're not sleeping seven hours a night, try and get that a little closer to that seven hours. Exercise a little bit more than what you're doing because any amount is going to help. Eat a little bit healthier. You don't need to overhaul your entire life, but just make these teeny tiny incremental upgrades, which are going to be something that's doable because,

It's hard to pick up a new habit like running every morning, but it's pretty easy just to make sure you get like a thousand steps in. And you know, you don't need to sleep, go right away from sleeping four or five hours a night to sleeping seven hours a night. You might start off like, okay, I'm going to make sure to turn off my phone and get six hours of sleep tonight. It doesn't have to be perfect, but making these teeny tiny incremental changes, which can be

More long -lasting than a huge overhaul of your diet other thing is a lot of people aren't able to do some of these lifestyle changes because you know, They can't afford healthier foods. They don't live somewhere where they're able to go

walking apart, for example, they can't really afford a gym membership or they're just, their work requires a lot of physical effort and when they get home, they're really tired. So it's really important to be mindful that like a lot of these lifestyle modifications that we think of as things that we can easily change in our lifestyle usually aren't really easy to change. And sometimes they're more related to socioeconomic factors that might be a little bit more out of our control.

So when you can, do those little tiny things to, you know, eat a little bit healthier, sleep a little bit more, exercise a little bit more when you can, but sometimes you might not be able to make those changes and you know that's also okay.

Jonathan Friedman (He/Him) (32:26)
I love that. Simon, it's been an absolute honour and pleasure. We've gone through five of the biggest questions on the internet about neuroscience. And I was just wondering, if you were to leave the listeners with one piece of advice, one small piece of advice, one small chunk, around starting their own journey with mental health, what would you tell them?

Simon (32:46)
Find something that makes you feel a little bit better, whether that's upgrading your coffee and making sure to drink a little bit more coffee every morning or finding a hobby that you like and making sure you have more time to do it. Pick one small little thing that you want to improve and make small little incremental improvements that are doable and sustainable there.

Jonathan Friedman (He/Him) (33:12)
Simon, thank you so much. Recovery is possible and EHN Canada is the place for both virtual and inpatient treatment programs for mental health and addiction. To learn more about EHN Canada and how you can begin your own recovery journey, please go to ehn .ca. To listen to even more episodes of the Five FAQs Podcast, you can check it out on your favorite streaming platform or on our website at ehn .ca. Simon, thank you so much and listeners, we'll see you next time.