Leading at Edge of Familiarity with Amy Clark

Breaking out of your comfort zone is breaking away from the need to know everything about the work your team is doing. It is also about breaking away from the familiar, the known, the day-to-day and facing that edge of uncertainty. How do you do that? Where do you start? How do you get comfortable with the uncomfortable? That’s what this episode is about.

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💡 About the show:
There is no growth in comfort and no comfort in growth. Business today typically values and promotes leaders for their subject expertise. Leaders who have command of the details and execute based on knowledge and experience are highly respected. However, to grow as a leader you have to get out of your comfort zone – that means learning to lead without just being the expert. Learn to gain the trust and respect of a team that might know more than you do. Get comfortable with ambiguity and with not having all the information. Develop the skills and confidence to lead in a different way.

For female leaders, subject expertise is usually the source of their confidence. Learning to lead outside your comfort zone is one step for breaking through the glass ceiling. The show’s purpose is to give you tips on how can you develop the capability to lead – to get out of your comfort zone.

#WandaWallace #OutoftheComfortZone #Podcast

Transcript

There is no growth in comfort and no comfort in growth yet. The big leaps are how careers are made and how businesses excel. So how do you master not knowing at all or feeling like an imposter? How do you have the conversations that will lead to trust? And of course, excellence? How do you take charge of the things that you can control?

How do you thrive outside your comfort zone? That's what this podcast is about. I'm your host Wanda Wallace, and it's time to get out of the comfort zone. Welcome to the conversation. Alright. Today we're gonna talk about breaking out of your comfort zone. And that is usually breaking away from the need to know everything that your team's doing, that sense that you know everything and therefore you can feel comfortable and confident because of your content knowledge.

But that breaking away from that comfort zone, from that edge of familiarity is what we really wanna focus on today. And it's also breaking away from. What you know, what you've always done in the past, the day to day that you're familiar with, and facing that real edge of uncertainty that scares us at times, that challenges our confidence in others, and that keeps us sometimes stuck in what we've always done.

So how do you do that? How do you face that edge of familiarity and keep going? How do you get comfortable with not knowing that's what we're talking about today? So my guest today is Amy Clark. Amy's a leadership strategist advisor and she's the author of Unseen Leadership. She's a former Chief Human resource officer and turned executive coach working with senior leaders and leadership teams to make sure that they're shaping the unseen forces that are affecting decisions.

Affecting your influence and affecting the organizational culture. I should say this is not our first book. She has a prior one called Growth Point was was very successful. She's also listed as the top 50 Thinkers, 360 thought leaders. If you follow that track. And she has this proprietary framework called Care Leadership Activator, which we'll be talking about today.

I can promise you. So Amy, welcome to the conversation. 

Thank you. It's great to be here with you, Wanda. 

I'm excited about it. It's rare that I find somebody who talks about that out of the comfort zone thing. I know, 

I know. Yeah. Yeah. 

So that's kind of cool that we have both of us thinking about this and what it means.

Yes. 

Right. Now you use language though that I don't use. You talk about the edge of familiarity. What do you mean by that? Gimme an example, what that looks like. 

Yeah. for me it's, it's actually quite literal, you know, I picture myself. You know, like I'm standing inside this bubble. If you can picture yourself in this bubble, right?

And you can see the edge of it, you can see what's beyond it, it's clear, right? You see what's on the other side and you wanna walk through it. You wanna get to what's on the other side. yet every time I feel like I'm, I wanna take the step, I take the step by bump up against something. And that's something that, that edge of that bubble.

Is my instinct. And it shows up in different ways. So we are born with instincts, right? of survival, protection, you know, sometimes to avoid something because it again, is to protect ourselves physically, emotionally, mentally, from something that is new that we're scared of. You know, it's the or flight.

This, this connects into all areas of our life, but when we're talking leadership and leading teams, you know, it can get into, again, when you're thinking about how you protect yourself, you know, what if I get this wrong, you know, you know, what if I just need a little bit more time, a little bit more information?

Right? And it's, it's this, this idea that I'm standing there. And I see it yet it's holding me back. Mm-hmm. You know? and for me it's like you feel like this tension in your chest, in your shoulders when you're into something like this, it could even be something that, that's very exciting for you. Right.

But it's. Also the sneaky one that happens to me is when I'm like, I just need a little bit more information, learn a little bit more, do a little bit of this. And so I keep analyzing, feeling like that's gonna help me take that step out. and so those are the things that, that really get us, you know, in, in the moments often that we don't expect.

I find that people. some people in particular want to make sure that they have thought through the contingencies, so a little bit more information, one more round of what might go wrong. So if I've thought through it, then I can handle whatever else might come. And there's this belief that that extra prep makes it easier to step over this edge of familiarity.

What's your experience with that? Does it make it easier or is it just a delay tactic? 

Um. It's a delay tactic I found. You know? And it's snowing. And it's snowing when it is, you know, and, and for myself and even with leaders I work with, you know, they say, well, well Amy, this is important to know, right?

It's important for me to look into this. And so you need to ask yourself, 

yeah. 

why am I doing. Am I doing it because I'm, I'm sitting, I'm sitting at the edge and not quite sure what's gonna happen or am I doing it because I know all these other things are going on around me and I need to learn about that.

'cause it could truly impact. Right? And so, so there's, there's differences, right? There's, there's things that's an intentional way of doing it to make sure what action you're taking is purposeful into what you're intending on versus, you know, I don't really know what the outcome could be. And so that when I hear those kinds of things, it's like, all right, you're in some delay mode.

Right? Okay. And so let's, let's examine where that's coming from and, and the one thing you can do, and what's interesting about it is, you know, and growing up in corporate myself and, and in so many leaders, it's you're focused on the outcomes. The results. Right? Performance. Yeah. And so you feel like you need to do things to control the outcome you want.

And it's so counterintuitive for us to think, let go of the outcome. How can I let go of the outcome? You know, especially when it impacts so much for you personally, you know, and, and so, because when you're so focused on the outcome, those things tend to happen. You tend to take steps that, that cause delay and and cause you to not see some other things that are going on around you.

Yeah. Yeah. I find that. When people haven't had a whole lot of success, like it's early in their career. 

Yeah. 

It isn't as scary to step into that edge of familiarity because you know, so what? Okay, there's not. You are not as aware of what can go wrong or you figure out not too much to lose, but once we get through the middle parts of career where you've got a reputation, you've got track record, you've achieved some things, you know, there is a lot to lose, not just a paycheck and a job.

There's a lot to lose. And I find when people are too focused on that lot, how much they're gonna lose, then it's really hard to face that itch. So what's your experience with that? 

Yeah, and you know, that's, that's actually one of the things I think about is like loss aversion bias. you know, that we tend to look at losses and what that feels like 10 times, 50 times more than the gain we'll get of doing something.

And, and again, that comes just from. The instincts we are born with, those things happen. So, so I see that a lot and the way you describe it, you know, I have a lot to lose and, and you know, while people might not say that out loud, that is what's going through their head, I have a lot to lose by saying, what's the truth versus what's expected?

what's this gonna mean for me? You know, 

or differently or meeting and not having every piece information. 

Yeah. Yeah. So. So that, that, that is quite often because you've built this reputation, this credibility from your expertise or from results that you have, and, and so now you're at a place, okay, this is what got me here.

I need to keep doing that. To keep me here and that is not the case. 

That's the part that I find is so scary. I find that's the one that I find people struggle with the most because it is true that that attention to detail and level of delivery and knowledge is what got you to the seat today. 

Yeah. 

But it is not what's going to allow you to have the impact you want to have from this point going forward.

No. 

And that is so hard to come to terms with. I've got 20 years of experience of being the expert. Like just, it's just really, really difficult one for people to get their head around. Okay. Do you find, before I talk about how do you do this, I wanna talk about what else you see people, what else causes people to hesitate on this?

You talk about this edge of familiar familiarity as if it were a bubble. And you're coming up to the bubble and there's a little bit of resistance and that has us pull back from our natural instincts rather than go forward. and we talk about expertise and a lot to lose. What else makes us hesitate from breaking up?

Well, if you're someone like me who used to think, you know, kind of like this people pleaser and the need for validation from others, you know, it's, it's nice to give validation. You're doing a good job. You know that people like you, you know, it boosts our ego for ourselves and feeling really good, like I'm on the right track.

Mm-hmm. what I see often happen is people are looking at this and say, okay, what will this person think? Or, I know this person is watching. Because maybe you're in line for a promotion or you have a, you know, a really big stake thing going on with your team and, and the visibility is quite high. And, and so we tend to look at, I need validation from others before I move forward.

I need to know. That this is good enough, you know? And so, so that's, that's one of the ways we do that. And, and again, it comes from this fact of we're just trying to protect ourselves and, and the whole thing of, you know, imposter syndrome comes up. I, yeah. You know, I think of that term as used so much, but I, I, I think of that term and saying, we, we think, am I the right person?

Did they make the right choice? And so that's where validation becomes even stronger, because you just feel like you need a proof point before doing something. 

Yeah, I see that as a major barrier. Mm-hmm. That people are still trying to prove to the universe that they deserve the job they've got. And so they're trying to prove that they know enough, they're trying to prove that they have the strategy all by themselves.

They're trying to prove that they can see everything that they, all of those pieces. And is that prove that keeps you stuck from really stepping out? Edge, and that's what you're seeing as well. 

Yeah. You know, because again, you know, as, as we grow up in our careers and do these things, you know. You, you're kind of looking at, you know, your leaders are looking at dashboards, reports, results, numbers, right?

A lot of these visible things that take place. And that's where you get validation from where your numbers and the trend and how it's going, how you can explain it, you know how you're shifting because of it. what we often don't talk about is what happens inner, the inner work in the moments where you're kind of trying to figure out, okay, what do I do here?

To say it out loud to somebody, it feels very risky. 

Yeah. 

And and so those are, those, those are the moments. And, and that's where the heart of unseen leadership comes in, is like the things that people don't notice. 

Yeah. 

That's one piece of it. They don't notice it's going on inside for you. The other component is of unseen leadership.

That is the powerful part is how you uncover things, situations that others can't or won't. And so taking that, all of that that's coming inside, how can I use this as power to uncover something that others can't see yet? And that's the real impact I can have. And so it's, it's trying to move from one to the other.

simple concept. Not easy to do. 

Yes. Yes. Easy to see. 

Just like any, 

and I think it's really helpful to understand all the factors that drive you towards avoiding taking that risk. stepping over that edge or breaking out of the comfort zone because if there's like a checklist, you know, then you can go through and say, okay, and was that one, is that one, is that one is that one?

And you got three or four? There you go. Okay. Maybe we're kind of hesitating here when we don't need to hesitate. Alright, I wanna do a contrast. So for a minute. Not every risk is worth taking. 

Mm-hmm. 

And I'm gonna do this as like a trend to all sorts of trends. And sometimes the trend is the thing that's worth following and it becomes a really, really important thing.

And you know that you've gotta get on the bandwidth and follow it and you know, bandwagon and see it all the way through and. That's an important trend, but there are other trends that are not so clear. You know, should I get on that one? Should I really pay attention? Do I dig down? Or is that one kind of going to disappear?

I said that in terms of trends, but it's also true in terms of a risk. Is this a risk I wanna take in my career? So how do you help people evaluate what's really worth taking the risk, and what you wanna pause on taking the risk for? Wait for more information. 

Yeah, I like to look at it in terms of is this something that you know, aligns with what I want long term for myself or am I just looking at it?

'cause it's interesting and other people are doing it. That often happens. You see other people are doing something, you're like, Ooh, this must be something. There must be something to that. So, you know, and that's, and that's not a question you just sit with for five minutes and they aren't able to answer.

because, you know, if, if you really don't have a sense of or clarity on what you want long term and what you see for yourself and others that are working around you, then that's the place to start. Because then you can say is, is this connected to that? Am I just doing it because it's the thing to do, or I've read books about it or I've listened to podcasts about it.

Right. You, you really want, want to think about that because you know, the, the one question I like to ask, if you are to sit with it for six months and not do anything, what do you think it would cost you if it was a year, if it was two years, kinda kind of thinking ahead, like what would the cost be if you did nothing?

Sometimes when we look at the cost of something, we get a sense of, I'm not really worried about that because I'm not going for that. Or, oh man, I don't want that happen. Dig, you know? Um. The other thing that comes up with this though too, that I hear from people, it's like I hear people say, Amy, really do I have to just constantly be out of my comfort zone?

Like, can I just have a break please? Can I just, 

what do you say? Yeah. 

You know, and you know, this is not meant to say you're always, like you said, taking risks and always having to do something new. because I think people struggle with, I'm just not good at these things. How do I. Get better at them. And the first question is, is do you need to, I mean, there's things that all of us we're just not good at.

Yeah, 

right. Or again, it's not connected to what we wanna see for us long term. And it's okay to take those off the list and not feel like you have to go after every single thing because you start to do that. You're just, you're, you start to lose sight of who you are and what you stand for because then you're all things and it's okay.

It's okay to sit and relish in the, in the joy and the satisfaction and the accomplishment of something because what I find often is you do that and you really, it really starts to attach an importance of that for you, and you do learn how much more impactful that can be. So, so do enjoy it. Do enjoy it and see what learning comes from it.

All right, so you said several things in that it is not everything that is listed in every podcast, for example, or every book or every business class you've ever been to, are things you really need to master. They may be things somebody else around you needs to master. You may need to know where those horses are, but it doesn't mean you need to master every single one of us.

So have a little bit of courage of what is important and what is not important. Okay. You said make sure you understand what really matters to you. So what are your goals career-wise? What are your values? Personally, so you know, is this in line with or not in line with because it's too easy to get pushed.

Mm-hmm. Everybody else is doing this, therefore I must get on the bandwagon. Okay. Alright. So I sort of asked those questions and then you said Now then ask yourself, what does it cost me if I do nothing? Like if I sit with this for six months a year and do nothing, what's the cost and can I live with that cost?

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. 

Okay, so now it's interesting. I find that in careers, if you're gonna have impact. There are many moments where you have to take a chance. You have to do things a little bit differently. You have to shake up the status quo. You have to get out of your comfort zone. You have to nudge other people out of their comfort zone if you're gonna achieve results.

But you said, I don't have to do that every single day. I can have moments where I can relish in the accomplishment and then get ready to go again. 

Well, I think what that does is that that does build a sense of, of strength within you too. And, that it is okay to do that and you, you, you build self-confidence in that.

You build a sense of, you know, courage to go when others are saying, keep trying this, this or this. It's, no, I need to sit in this. I need to sit in this because you need to know how it feels. Once you've crossed that edge and, and working in it, you need to know how that feels and so that's the important part.

And you, you, you do build resilience within that too, right? 

Right. I think that's true. I also think the more times you put yourself out of the comfort zone, the more comfortable you get getting out of the comfort zone. 

Yeah. 

It's that as scary. The third, fourth, fifth time as it is the first and second time.

That's right. 

Because you develop some skills and how you're gonna survive through that period of time. 

Right. 

I also find on this, when there's a trend, you decide not to adopt. You say, I'm not going to go there. And then you realize two years down the line, that was a mistake. That, the courage to come back on that and kind of retool, reconfigure, rebuild to get back up to speed on that trend.

Sometimes you can leapfrog other people. So it's not the end of the world, but just takes courage to go. Okay, I missed that. I need to come back to it. So what do you see with people who've avoided and then change their minds? 

Yeah, there's, there's two extremes that I see and one is, I mean, I've had people say.

How they have first regret. And then we change that from regret to excitement that now I get to do it. 

Okay. 

You know? But then you have the ones that feel like I am so behind I'm, they judge themselves, they're critic. Right? And they, what will other people think that, you know, again, that whole validation, what will other people think and see that I didn't do that.

And so, you know, to me it's, it's. The reward of, of growth really is when you start to realize something that came up to you six months ago. You're just, you're, you're thinking to yourself, oh wow. But it's okay because there was something going on at that point in time where it wasn't connecting with you, and it probably wouldn't have worked at that time for you.

Now, now it's in front of you and you're seeing it differently. Go after it. Bring it in. 'cause that is, you know, and it's okay 'cause we're just sometimes not in the right moment to, to embrace something or, you know, welcome something else in. 

Fair enough. We're not at that, we're not always in a good place to say, I can take whatever risk.

Listening to you talk reminds me of a story from a number of years ago. There's a young woman who is, going for a big promotion and the business that she's leading right at the moment is going very, very well. It's a very. Hot area. Everything's going well. She's making money. I mean, it looks great.

Everything's great, and she thinks I'm on track. If I just keep doing what I'm doing, I will hit it. It'll be fine. No problem. Two senior leaders around her who are big advocates of hers and not her direct manager. Come to her and say, we think there's an opportunity for you in this completely different other space over here, and we'd like to see you grab it for the following seven reasons, and we think you'd be really good at it.

And she says, nah. Basically, I mean, she was polite. She listened through them and she basically said to them, I think I'm on a good track. Why would I take a chance with that? And both of the guys walk away. I know both of them. They walk away and go, I thought she was ambitious. I don't know what happened.

Well, maybe not. She just wants to stay in her comfort zone. Oh, okay. And they stopped being the strong advocates for her that they had. Okay. Because they thought this was somebody who was willing to grab something new, go after the big shiny. Now she's sitting there saying, I hear you. That's interesting, but that sounds to me like a good way to kill my career.

Why would I take that risk? She didn't hear what they were hearing. Now what they're seeing, and they didn't say is, we think your market is about to go south. 

Mm. 

Okay. Say that her, they could have said that to her. They could have had that debate with her. Maybe she was open to it, maybe not open to it, but she couldn't see the poll of the new, okay.

Hmm. Needless to say, roll forward the next year. Her market is not doing so well. Her business is not so strong. She's not a candidate for the promotion she thought she was gonna get, and she's sitting there for two, three years, more going, when is it ever gonna happen? Until she comes back and says it was a whole host of things that cost her to be able to do this.

But to go back to the two people and say, you know, two years ago, three years ago, when you put this proposition in front of me, I didn't see the opportunity. Here's why I didn't see the opportunity, but I am open to taking a risk and I am brain Noah, and I hope you'll give me another chance. And they got back on board with her.

Hmm. Nice. 

But it was that admitting the courage to admit that I didn't see it and I missed it, but don't look against me. So it's possible to regroup when you've built good track record. 

I, I love that, you know, because, you know, going back and saying that, that, that certainly shows courage.

Interest and that you can admit you don't have all the answers and that's you're, that you're okay in going back. You know, I was, I was wrong about that. Or I realize now. What this opportunity could mean for me. And you know, a couple of other things that, that came to mind as you were talking through that too is, you know, you, you know, is, you know, the, these two other leaders saw long term that the market was going south.

It's interest. It would be interesting to me to talk to the person you're discussing, like, you know, what was she seeing in the market at that time, right? Because that, that all comes down to, yeah, you can, you wanna look back to and learn. Yeah, this opportunity me, I can see. I can see what this does, what can this can do for me and what else?

And it's important. Go back and say. What didn't I see at the time? Because you wanna learn from that to take to your next opportunity. You know? Was there, was there a signal or something that I missed in terms of looking downstream at the market? Right? Yeah. And, and the other thing that came to mind for me was the word ambition that you brought up.

I mean, ambition can mean different things to different people. 

Totally. 

You know, people can be ambitious in the role and they love the role, they wanna stay in it, and they're ambitious to keep it going and to change along with things and wanna keep it, even, make it even more successful. And so, you know, I think on both, both ends, there's that, you know, difference of, of view, right?

And, and so it comes from our own experiences, which is fair. And so, but I love the fact that she just said, you know. I'm seeing this now. and, and I would say, what can I learn from this? Because this isn't gonna be the last time this comes up for me 

for sure. And I think this is right back to where the, where we started this conversation, this notion of the edge of familiarity or the edge of the comfort zone, or outta the comfort zone of however you wanna describe it, 

right?

When you're, feeling comfortable. You're feeling like everything is rolling along smoothly and it's going to be fine. I think you miss the signals that the world is about to change. 

Oh yeah. 

And I think it's because your mindset is sort of in this blinder, let me just keep going and doing and I will be okay at the end.

Just keep doing. The other way I hear it from my senior leaders more often is, what else do you want me to do? I'm so busy I can't possibly take on anything else. Strikes me as an odd thing to say, because ultimately isn't that your job to see what else it is as opposed to stay so busy. So anyway, I think all of us drive us back to where our comfort zones, 

you know, and I hear more often, like I, I, I don't have the capacity, the time.

You know, I'm, I'm trying to keep the train moving and what that tells me is, you know, from a senior leader standpoint is, alright, we need to back up because I think, and think about the role they play as a senior leader, as an executive, right? Yeah. And, and why it matters. To the, to the health of the organization, to health of their team for themselves to success.

because if you are standing still, all of these things are, I just imagine like these cars passing you really fast and then you're just, wait a minute, the road has ended. What, what, what turn do I make? And, and yeah, for sure I, I, I see it in both. But lately, I would say lately and last year, it's been more of, um.

I, I just can't take anything else on. 

Yeah. I'm seeing that a lot and I'm seeing people getting very tunnel vision because of that one. 

Yeah. 

Alright. Shift gears, because I would be remiss if we didn't talk about your main framework, which is the care activator framework. Explain to me what this is, how this works, why this is important for this whole idea of out of the comfort zone.

Yeah. Care is what activates the strongest parts of your leadership. But also expands ways in which you're, you're seeing yourself and others that are around you. and you, you started early on in talking, you know about team and your expertise not lasting. As you're leading more, as your scope expands, your expertise matters less, which is really hard to hear.

Because we've all worked so hard to get to where we are, and for somebody to tell you, wait a minute, my expertise doesn't matter as much. Now what? That's what I've leaned on. And, and so where the care activator comes in, it's how do you bring out the most in yourself, in your team? And then you bring out the most and the results of the business and, and, and, and the mission and the goals you're trying to achieve.

And so, there are four areas of care is the acronym. So you have curiosity, adaptability, resilience and empathy. And, you know, those are, those are the, capabilities that when I've seen a teams, when they. When they activate and interrupt those instincts that are keeping them from their edge, they're seeing a difference.

They're seeing a difference in results. They're seeing a difference in how they connect with people and how they connect with themselves and, and become a better leader for it. 

Okay. Alright, so curiosity, adaptability, resilience, and empathy. Those are so easy to say and so, mm-hmm. To do. Give me an example of what let's, I go through each one of them.

What does curiosity look? Particularly when I'm looking at this edge of familiarity and I'm thinking about crossing over, how does curiosity work? 

One of the things I like to think about is, so thinking of a, we've just had this shuttle launch, right? NASA. You know, they invented the chronograph, so it's this, this mechanism that dims like the brightest thing in the sky, whether it's sun or the brightest star, and they do that.

So it uncovers other things that could be out there. So same kind of thing with curiosity, and I think you mentioned shiny objects at one point. Curiosity. One of the things about that is a way to dim that shiny thing, that obvious answer. We've been here before. We know how to do this. How do we dim it to then see what else could be possible here?

And so, you know, it's, it's the questions of what am I not seeing? What else is possible? What else can we consider? And, and, and in the moment of conversations with your team or when you're working on some deep work and strategy work is, I know this has worked before, what around me has changed since then?

Yeah. You know, that. I ought to be thinking differently about this and really not accepting the first answer as the full answer. So it's kind of like dimming, dimming, that shiniest thing to see what a book, what comes up. So, so that's, you know, when I think of curiosity, adaptability, it's interesting.

We'd hear about that. You can pivot. Certainly adaptability is being able to pivot to conditions around you. 

Okay. 

To me that's more of this reactive. I like to think about it. How can it be a strategic, unintentional thing that the pivot becomes less, um. Less pressure, less important, you still do it, but what you're able to see is the story, the whole story around you.

And one of the ways I do this with leaders is because we often, we often try to look, you know, all these five steps ahead. Okay. If this is scenario planning, right? If this happens, we do this, this, those are good practices. Mm-hmm. I, I like to get leaders outside of that to really almost like, it's like this improv thing that I do with leaders.

And you may have heard of the yes and exercise, right? Yes. I'm gonna say, you know, we're gonna go on a picnic and you say yes and you know, we're gonna make sure we. You know, go to this park, right? And you continue to do those things because I think what happens is when people kind of get, but you.

Those kinds of things. And so I have, you know, I put leaders in the scenarios where they're kind of doing these stories and these things, and I find two different things happen. One, you can see and look on their face. Some of them are, they're trying to think, okay, this person over here is saying something.

My turn isn't for three turns now, so what am I gonna say? Like, they're already planning. Right 

Uhh

and it's not their turn yet. And so when it comes to them, there's like, oh, wait, that's not what I, that's not what I plan for. Yeah, 

yeah. Alright. 

Versus the ones that like, let the story go and they're, they have the courage to add the next line, whatever that is.

Right. And it, and it helps them practice this in the moment. Kind of thing to blend with the scenario plan. And we've all learned, you know, in, in the business world, to understand that yes, there's this pivot opportunity, but there's also this opportunity to say, how do we, how do we come in and embrace what's happening around us now?

So those are things that, you know, with adaptability, we think about, um. Resilience. you know, you know, I've often heard the term of keep pushing Uhhyou know, uhhyou're determined, you're persistent, right? and you know, I had learned from a friend of mine, she, she does marathons and, and she has this mantra in her head, you know, even though I've done marathons before, the marathon doesn't care that I've run a marathon before.

Nobody around me cares. I have to honor the training. I have to build my endurance, not to push beyond that. I can do physically or mentally, but to know where my limits are, where, where I kind of hit a wall, and how I can move beyond that. So you build it up, you have to honor the training, you have to honor the training of leadership, honor the experiences that happen and how you learn from them.

So that's, that's, that's a, that's a piece of resilience that, you know, as we think about things that are changing now, particularly in ai, where human leadership becomes even more important, and we feel behind, you know, how do we build resilience in that way. And then, finally, empathy. Um. I have always had a really challenging time thinking about empathy as putting yourself in someone else's shoes.

Mm-hmm. 

Because I just think of this, okay, once I'm in them, then what? Like, how do, how do I impersonate somebody? You know? I'm coming from my own experience, they're coming from theirs, and that's the point that I'm, it is not about you, it's about the other person. Really taking a moment, you know, if you're telling me something that's a challenge for you, right?

I'm starting to think, okay, well I've had this before. This is how I go into problem solving mode because that's what I do as a leader. I wanna solve problems. Empathy is asking you to not do that and stay in the moment with that person because they don't want you to solve a problem for them. They need space to go through it.

And you to walk alongside them so they can, can, can do that and learn from that experience. you know, the, the, the more you get into leadership, the less people want answers from you. You know, they, they want the space to be seen, to be challenged, to be stretched. And that's where empathy can work. Its magic 

seen, challenged.

Yeah, it's interesting all of these, the courage, adaptability, resilience and empathy. What I liked about the Curious is to think about there is that thing that is this bright shining object that is looming large and it seems so obvious. 

Yeah. 

And the curiosity and the courage to say, how do we dim that for a moment and look at what else we're not seeing.

Yes. 

Okay. So you think about a coaching call just very recently where the company is making a pivot on strategy and there's a lot of things that are being said about what that strategy means and how you pick up and you hear everybody's starting to use the language, whether they have a clue what it means, they're still starting to use the language.

Yeah. 

Just said. Okay, so if that's the change, what did, do you know about where the company stands in the, this market, this market, this market on those issues? seems to me that would be an obvious question before you go chasing an action that you actually get smart Yeah. About what's out there rather than just adopting it.

Yeah. But it's that syn curiosity. What does this mean? Why does it mean and what am I not seeing and what has changed that I need to go with? So that was one 

Yeah. 

Piece as a leader. The second thing is the adaptability. And it's not just that kind of constantly pivoting, but it's seeing the pivot in the context of the entire beginning, middle, and future part of the story.

Not just, oh, oops, we'll shift and go. So we've gotta see it all together. Not getting too far ahead in your planning, not getting too far ahead in the bold commitment to a particular set of actions. So you can see the pivot points when they come through the resilience. I love that resilience is sometimes pushing and persisting and sometimes resilience is about saying, this isn't working.

Let's do something completely different. 

Yeah. 

And that, you know, there's no way. To know what is needed in the moment, other than, as you said rightly, to honor your experience and your training. Yeah. And then that last empathy, you're not there to solve a problem for people. 

Yeah. 

Sadly, we think that's our job as a leader, but no.

In fact, I think you said at the beginning very clearly, our job is to see what others can't see yet. 

Yes. 

Not solve the problem. 

Solving the problem feels like the easiest thing and the familiar thing. Right, of course. So of 

course, well, why would you come to me? I'm supposed to have the answer this. I think that's gonna thing going in organizational life, particularly when you've had success some now on this big managerial role.

And yeah, of course I'm supposed to have the answer. 

Yeah. 

Easy. Easy to say. Okay, Amy, what did we miss that we needed to talk about? I know there's thousands of things, but anything else in particular that you think we really wanna highlight here? 

Well, I think, yeah, a few things in terms of, you know, I mentioned, the human side of leadership, you know, and particularly.

Technology, AI is, you know, encroaching on areas that were once human. Yeah. Right. And we're, we're figuring it out now and, and, and it's moving so fast that now more than ever, when I think about how we enter leadership in a more human way. Right. There's a couple of things I think about. 

Mm-hmm. 

Ask more, tell less.

Okay. You know, we, you know, it's sometimes we feel like people just wanna be told this is the direction and we're impatient. We have results to get right. So. This, this, this, and this. And that's it a disservice in the long term because people aren't learning about how you think. So they develop how they need to be thinking.

And so when you ask, you're connecting to that person in really a more human way. And you're showing you respect the input and the experience that they're bringing and that you put trust in them. So that's one. And the other one is show your edge to people. Claim it. 

Okay. 

Say it. Be vulnerable. You know, I'm figuring this out.

This isn't easy for me and here's why. Okay. And when people see that, you are modeling the idea of I don't need to have the answers to be successful here. I need to make sure I'm asking better questions and being forthright when I don't know. I'm being forthright when I'm concerned. When I'm excited, when, you know, I have absolutely no idea where to start.

Yeah. You know, people need to know that's okay. 

Absolutely. Okay. In fact, I think it's inspiring quite honestly. I think, I often say to leaders, when you take a new job, your entire team knows that you don't know everything that you might, of course. And before you might. And I mean, it's blinking obvious to them, so.

Why would you try to fake it? Why would you try to pretend it? You might as well they see it. You might as well say you're right. I don't know. I will know more and a year from now than I know now, but it's okay. You're here to know. It's, it's incredibly empowering to other people when you can show your edge.

Absolutely. 

I dunno, figuring it out, 

love. Absolutely. And it's inspiring because we, listen, we've all been in new positions before. Mm-hmm. And we all have felt that 

mm-hmm. 

You're not the only one. Who has felt that. 

And there's nothing wrong with you because you feel that way. That's the other thing. Like that's if you didn't feel that way, there might be something wrong with you.

Yeah. Right. When you're like, yes, I've had that too. I've had that too. But, 

alright. 

And, and, uh. And, and helping people see that, that certainly is a breakthrough for them. 

So Amy, what I'm taking away from this conversation is this notion of the edge of familiarity. That we all face it at various points in our career.

The more we face it and walk through it, the better we're gonna get about it. But it's. Always uncomfortable and there is a dozen reasons why we hesitate that sound perfectly logical. Some of this is just to understand that that is you hesitating or avoiding, not necessarily truly things that you need to come back and learn and figure out.

Right. Sometimes we take a risk, sometimes we don't take a risk. We get it right in either case, or we get it wrong in either case. And that courage to come back around and say, let me regroup, let me reconfigure, let me relearn whatever. It's, I love the care framework. Curiosity, particularly demming, that shiny object so you can see what out there and nobody else is seeing the adaptability sort of pivoting, but pivoting in the whole story, not just every single moment to moment.

The resilience, the kind of both pushing or the adaptability and kind of, there's nowhere to plan for it. It's just knowing. Trust for what my experience is today, and then that empathy, we can't always know how someone else is feeling because they're not necessarily feeling how we would feel if they were in their shoes.

Mm-hmm. Job is not solved problem. 

That's right. 

Your job is to help people be seen, challenged, and stretched. 

Yes. 

I love it. 

Nicely said. 

What a great, what a great conversation. The book, again is on leadership unseen. Did I get that title right? Unseen leadership. Okay. And Amy, if somebody wanted to reach out to you and find you, where's the best place to get in touch with you?

They can go to unseen leadership.com. Okay. And they can get more information about the book and, and there's information about me and, and how to connect. And I am, active on LinkedIn as well. 

Okay, fabulous. So unseen leadership.com or LinkedIn. Amy, it's a pleasure talking with you today. Thanks for being with me.

You too, Wanda. Thank you. 

Of course. Go check out our YouTube channel if you wanna watch this conversation or see some shorts about it. And otherwise, we'll see you next week with another episode. Take care.

Thank you for joining us today. Tune in for another edition next week with Dr. Wanda Wallace on the Voice America Business Channel. Reach outside your comfort zone this week.