17. Elizabeth Garret Anderson: The Doctor who battled the "Hysteria" slur

Elizabeth Garrett Anderson: Pioneering Doctor and Women's Rights Advocate

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In this episode, we delve into the life and achievements of Elizabeth Garrett Anderson, the first woman to qualify as a doctor in the UK. Despite the societal and institutional barriers of the Victorian era, Anderson's determination and intellect allowed her to pave the way for women in medicine. She established the New Hospital for Women and played a crucial role in the women's suffrage movement. Her story exemplifies resilience, challenging the status quo, and the importance of providing opportunities. Join us as we explore her lasting legacy in both the medical profession and women's rights.

Previous episodes we talk about here: Sarojini Naidu 

00:00 Excitement for the Counter Strike Tournament
00:34 Welcome to the Velour Studio
01:19 Introducing Elizabeth Garrett Anderson
02:40 Early Life and Education
03:48 Challenges in Victorian Medicine
08:40 Breaking Barriers in Medical Education
13:38 Founding the Dispensary and Hospital
17:53 Challenges of Establishing a Women's Hospital
18:39 Combining Skills for Social Reform
20:24 Training the Next Generation of Female Doctors
20:50 Confronting Sexism in Medicine
24:42 Advocacy for Women's Rights and Suffrage
30:54 Legacy and Continued Influence
34:01 Modern Reflections and Personal Insights
37:00 Conclusion and Call to Action

Transcript

audio1966731641: 0:08

I love that they're off to a Counter Strike tournament. Is that what it is? Nice. Yeah, Katowice is one of the big tournaments of the year. I watch it on YouTube. Do you? I'm quite jealous. You're so jealous. Yeah. They're actually there. Yeah, look at them. I've never seen Paul so giddy. He's in proper geek territory there. yeah. Shall we go? Yeah, let's go. Hi, Simon. Hi, Vicky. How you doing? How are you? I'm good, how are you? I got in first, yeah. to say, you look very opulent in your backhand. as do you. Welcome to our new Velour studio. This is who we are. It's very exciting. That's a whiff of the sort of scholarly, isn't it? We try, I think we're like Diet Coke scholars. Diet Coke scholars, I was going to say Coke Zero, but yeah. Yeah, yeah, you're right, Coke Zero scholars. Possibly the Pepsi Max. We have a little bit of an air about it, but you know, deep down we just love a gossip, and that's what we're doing. Yeah, that's it. One day we'll get smoking jackets in these exact fabrics. Yes, please, yeah, it'd be great. So welcome to She Changed History. Hello. Simon's got a story for us today. Yeah, I sure have. I have a story for you about a lady called Elizabeth Garrett Anderson. Tipple barrel. Elizabeth Garrett Anderson's life was one of defiance against societal norms and tireless dedication to breaking down barriers for women in medicine and beyond. As the first woman to qualify as a doctor in the United Kingdom, her accomplishments represent a pivotal moment in the history of both the medical profession and the broader women's rights movement. Her career would go on to influence generations of women striving for equality in professions and society. Today we explore the lasting legacy of Elizabeth Garrett Anderson through her role as both a pioneering physician and a trailblazer for women's rights. Have a number of sources, articles from the Royal College of Physicians, A BBC history article, but yet more from the Women's History Network. Whoop, whoop, um, something from the Ette Fellowship and a little bit of bonus reading, on hysterical Victorian women. Well, yeah, are we referencing that? Yes, please. Not hysterical women, just specialised in Victoria. They are famously the most hysterical, yeah. Great, great, love, love, love, love. Elizabeth, was born in Whitechapel in London. Yeah. On June the 9th, 1836. Two quite prosperous families. British, yeah. Prosperous family, with a strong emphasis on education. Her father, Newson Garrett, was a successful businessman. And her mother, Louisa Garrett, encouraged her children to be intellectually ambitious. Her early life was, as was the case in Victorian times, not without its challenges. with sort of the expectation of conformity to the traditional roles, so primarily focused on domesticity and marriage. Okay. So she's like higher society. Higher society, yeah. Not royalty, but they're doing alright for themselves. Okay, understood. And this intellectual ambition that her mother instilled in her. meant that she had aspirations beyond just marriage and child care. She harboured a deep interest in the sciences and was drawn to the study of medicine from an early age. So we're in Victorian times, and it's a funny time for medicine because we're, it's not quite the era of, leeches and just totally quack theories, although I'm sure many of them are still around, and You've got all these, haughty male doctors and a sort of pervasive view of women and women's health care at the time, It was just a vast unknown, I imagine. The problem is, like, when they couldn't diagnose something, in women, when they thought something was up, but they didn't have a diagnosis for it, they just used the catch all term of hysteria. Yeah. So, at the time, we had, hysterical women and, I think one of the early theories that it was, because of a lack of sex. They were sort of sexually frustrated. Um, so they had all of these. They were not. I can assure you they, they were not sexually frustrated. They were doing fine. They were doing fine. Well they were if they went to the doctor's surgery. Because that's the reason for the invention of the vibrator. First the mechanical clockwork one and then electricity came along. And apparently about a quarter of women were diagnosed as being hysterical. A quarter. A quarter, yeah, in Victorian England, so it was a widely done, but it was just it was part of this idea that women can't control their emotions, they can't focus or concentrate on things, they can't be trusted, they're just largely troublemakers who are controlled by their womb, rather than just like being people who can do stuff. So did Elizabeth not believe in hysteria then? Is that the idea that she wanted to dig into that hysteria a bit more? She was just dissatisfied. I mean, a quarter of women being diagnosed with hysteria, that's not an answer. That's not a thing. It was such a bizarre diagnosis, because it's like anything that was wrong, women that didn't fit into an existing diagnosis would just get labelled as hysteria. Oh, I see, so it's like a default label. That was the default, yeah. And then the sort of research and the efforts and the thinking of the time went into trying to explain hysteria, not trying to figure out what might actually be wrong with these people. Yeah. If anything, so like Sigmund Freud came along and suggested quite a lot of things, but he was still just thinking about the idea of hysteria rather than actual underlying medical conditions. And I wish there was more of a difference today, but I just think about particularly like diagnosis of endometriosis. And where that gets written off as, Oh, you're just exaggerating. Oh, you know, toughen up. But, you know, things gradually change. I was going to bring up, Nagamanchetti's new book, which Oh yeah, it's out in May, isn't it? Yeah, which is my understanding that it's about her basically going through what you just said. No, I am in a lot of pain. No, I'm not lying. Yeah. Please believe me. And all the different layers to actually getting a full on diagnosis and actually, you know, it's. It seems to be that she's transforming the regulation around that still today. Like, it's like, not the new hysteria, that's not fair, but it's got its own challenges, hasn't it, Endo? It's got its own, it's its own ballpark. Um, so yeah, I can't wait for that to come out. that's incredible. Picture you've sent me looks like Elizabeth is reading 25 percent of women are diagnosed with hysteria. And that's her YouTube reaction. I feel like that's what's in the notebook, that statistic. I'd love to see what's on that page. Yeah, for sure. Right, And the prevailing societal norm at the time just dictated that women were unfit for the medical profession. it was thought that they lacked the intellectual rigour or, the emotional temperament required for medical practice. Sorry, say that again, the what, Picard? The intellectual rigour. Oh, intellectual rigor. So, okay, because they won't teach them. Yeah, so they won't teach them. So you're not covering it up. And what was the other one? The emotional temperament. Yeah. So they were just too volatile to be, to be considered a trustworthy medical practitioner. Yeah. Because a man's never lost his temper. I love that. You're right. You're right. I know. Rock steady man, you know. But this put up an obstacle for someone, such as Elizabeth who wanted to study medicine, because she wasn't allowed. She was determined to become a doctor. Okay. And she was intellectually capable, capable. Absolutely. She had the capability, the determination to do it, the desire to do it. But she wasn't allowed into any of the traditional medical schools. They were male only, places. Okay. So it was a lot of issues around this time and up until then of, women not being allowed to study for arbitrary reasons. Fortunately she was from a family who could afford private education for her. Great. So she was tutored by her father and other private tutors. They cultivated her interest in a number of subjects, specifically the sciences. She wanted to go this medical route. And then in 1858, she approached the prestigious Society of Apothecaries. Oh. Wanted to go there to study. Yeah, is that still a thing today? Oh, I didn't actually look, yeah. I want to be part of that. Let me in. It's probably just called the Pharmacist Union these days. It's called Worshipful Society of Apothecaries, livery company for pharmacists and physicians in the city of London. Oh, it looks beautiful. Look at that building. Stunner. I'm still in London, That's amazing. Nice. I love the word apothecary. It's so good, isn't it? Yeah, and just the images that it conjures up. That's it. Yeah. Rows and rows of bottles and tinctures and these things and the old sort of apothecary furniture as well. All the little storage. You know, so very much the Ikea of their time in terms of organization. Yeah, absolutely. They knew they were onto something. They were onto a billion dollar brand and they didn't, they didn't know. So she wasn't allowed to study, at the society, but she She, underwent, training, studying medicine privately with the help of doctors. There's a renowned physician and surgeon, Dr. William Alexander, who taught her. And a couple of years later, she applied to the Society of Apothecaries to take her qualifying exams. Yeah. She was rejected, again. Rejected because of her gender. Yeah. Just saying that women weren't eligible to enter the medical profession. Yeah. So it's like a blanket ban across all schools. Blanket ban. Institutions, yeah. yeah, she was rejected. But eventually. She managed to, with the help of friends in high places and allies around her, she managed to arrive at a private medical school, the Middlesex Hospital Medical School in London. So it was making it one of the first institutions to allow women, a woman. to study medicine. She faced a lot of opposition, in her time at the school. but her academic brilliance and determination really prevailed. And studying medicine is not a short term thing. It's not like an hour a week in evening school. This takes years and years. And she would have faced the opposition there from tutors and other students alike. But she was still allowed in. But she was allowed in. Yeah, so someone must have had her back. And I think this is so important with all our stories is that you just need someone to give someone a chance. And if you're in a position right now where you're able to give someone a chance who maybe isn't traditionally meant to be for that opportunity or meant to go down that path, give them, just give them an inch. And, yeah, what they can achieve off the bat, because I don't know this story, but I imagine she's going to go and achieve something, is, you know, it's totally worth it. I don't know if this is a British thing or whatever, but just always give the underdog, always give someone who, you know, they've got enough hurdles. Be nice, be the one to give a chance. Because that underpins so many of our stories. There was a supportive dad, there was a supportive doctor, someone, you know, let someone on a train and they could go off and do something amazing, like, it's always just someone bending the rules ever so slightly. Will just lead to amazing things even if they're not the people who quote unquote changed history, you know Yes, there you go soapbox done. Thank you. Love it as you were Love it So in 1865 she passed, her exams and gained a certificate that allowed her to become a doctor because the exams I think had to go through at the time had to go through this society of apothecaries Yeah So she got her certificate, enabled her to become a doctor, and society immediately changed its rules to prevent other women doing the same thing. Studying privately and then taking the exams. Because of all that terrible healthcare she was giving immediately. Oh, just awful. Yeah, yeah. Didn't even give her a chance. In 1866 she established a dispensary for women in London. So a dispensary is in like a pharmacy? A pharmacy, yeah. Oh wow! Okay, for women. for women. Yeah. Oh my gosh. So specializing in women's health is like, we should have those today because I heard something and I, obviously it was just through Instagram. So I don't know like how true it is, but we know just as much about the woman's body and the woman's reproductive system as the Tudors did about brains. Does that make sense? Yeah. And I'm not gonna lie, the Tudors didn't know that much. They weren't that great at the whole brain, brain surgery thing, were they? No, they hadn't got it down. I don't think they even had MRI scanners back then. That just shows how little we know about, and you've spoken about this before haven't you with HG and things like that, but yeah, it's fascinating how little we know. So the fact that she was already specialising in 1866, yeah. Yeah, she had this real commitment to, like, I mean it stemmed from her interest in the sciences and she thought, okay, I want to do medicine, but then this, And I'm speculating now, but I would speculate that the barriers that she came up against, and at the time, just the prevalence of this diagnosis of hysteria, is not, it's not a satisfactory answer. and if you were hysterical and rich, then you would get sexually assaulted by the doctor, and if you were hysterical and poor, you would get sent off to a mental asylum. And like, it's not really an adequate answer. I think we can do better society. I think we can do better, yeah. So she had this real commitment to offering women access to medical care, both as patients, but also as practitioners. she was qualified, but wasn't really recognised because She was a woman. So yeah, opened up her own dispensary in 1866. Yep. And was made a visiting physician at something called the East London Hospital. She gained a medical degree from the University of Paris. Oh. So she, this all sounds like she's got so much money to fund these things, because funding a pharmacy, a dispensary, not cheap, going to Paris, not cheap. Not cheap. Yeah. So it sounds like she's got the means to make waves. This is, yeah, one of the stories of someone capitalizing on their privilege to improve things for everything else, everyone else. So she got a medical degree from the University of Paris, but the British Medical Register refused to recognise her qualification. So she sort of tried a few different routes to entry now. Mm hmm, yeah. And generally been shot down, but didn't let that stop her. She, in 1872, founded the new hospital for women new hospital for women love all those words. Okay. What does that mean? It very much does what it says Uh on the sign above the door. It was a new hospital and it was specifically for women Okay, it has since been renamed. It's now known as the elizabeth garrett anderson hospital Sexy name Right. Is that in london? and it's primary purpose that she set it up for was advancing women's health care. It was one of the first institutions in the UK dedicated to providing medical care for women, by women. Addressing the specific and particular health needs of women and children. she led the hospital. and although she wasn't accepted with her medical degree from Paris and having passed the exams and got her certificate that they then changed the rules on, etc. She, this was still a sort of a trailblazer moment of proving that actually a woman could do it and she was setting up the dispensary and she set up the hospital. It's a killer move, isn't it? It's a killer. So many thoughts. So you'd have to get the building, set up the building, publicize it, let people know that it's there, get people in a position, get women into a position where, they were allowed to go. So you're not just convincing women at this point, are you convincing their, finances and you're convincing, them that it's safe on top of everything else, So much around the Victorian health care is not safe. Yeah. And, and so she's doing, she's leading all those different rivers. Yeah, yeah against the societal backdrop where there would still have been a lot of opposition to even the concept of it Yeah, things don't change that quickly. So she was battling against that. It's amazing all the time And it really showcased her ability to combine She's got combining both the intellectual both her medical expertise and this determination for social reform Yes. Together in one large project. Yeah. Which is not easy. No. Like, that's not easy today, let alone back then. It's something that comes up with so many of our, subjects that, like a lot of people have skill in a particular area, but the ones that we discuss. The women that we discuss who seem to have the biggest impact and make the most change are able to combine these maybe slightly disparate sounding skills of both being intellectually rigorous and having this drive and determination and almost sort of political skill. to maneuver around the leadership at the time. Or they pull on people who have that. So like, with the champagne story with Nicole, she was pulling on people who had expertise in other fields. And I think being able to influence So many different people, just like with, Sarojini, she was being at the table, arguing with so many different standpoints about we need independence. And I think there's something as well about having, if you have a determination and a passion for a cause, if that's apparent, it does seem to draw people in. It draws people to you and they sort of want to, they get caught up in it and they want to be involved in this. Like this podcast. In this change, like this podcast. Like this podcast, come along, come along for the ride. Let's put ourselves up there. We just like this. So the new hospital for women, also became a key institution for training up other female doctors. So it was now somewhere that Passing that book, yeah. Yeah, they had established somewhere where actually if you had done your, the academic side of it, got your certificate, taken your exams, they were then welcoming to you to do your Like, on the job training, that's such a big part of it. So she knew it was sexism back then. Oh, she 100 percent knew it. Yeah. You don't ever see that word like in articles or in like, the world was sexist. You never see that. Like it would be cool to see it in a letter or something, like This is so freaking sexist. I'm gonna do this. Yeah But they knew they didn't know just call it out call it for what it is It's just, it is blatant, isn't it? I think that's what shocks me in all these things. It's, it's not undercurrent, it is. In your face, Plainton. You can't be a doctor. Purely because you're a woman. Yeah, for sure. she wasn't necessarily that famous at the time. I mean, I think she started off pretty wealthy and that continued, but she wasn't in it for the fame of it. Her drive was to make a difference. She was focused on improving the lives of women, both through the practice of medicine, and improving that for them, and also the advancements of women's rights, both in the medical community and later in society in general. This way that she integrated women into the medical profession was then a model for future generations of doctors who would continue to challenge this institutionalized discrimination. In medicine, and it's something that still seems to, I can't say I read a great deal about the medical profession. Yeah. I just think of like, female surgeons and the sexism that's still around those and the barriers that there are for women getting involved in that. There were some stories a few months ago about,, the sexism, misogyny. Inappropriate behavior of surgeons towards female members of staff in theatre that still goes on today. Um, there's that picture a couple of years ago. I think there was, I think there was actual uproar about it. of a female surgeon who had to continue with the surgery. pull herself away from the surgery but she started her period. So the picture was of her having a period in her scrubs and then there was some massive uproar about that and it's just like the general seeming lack of accommodation for women in medicine and in particular areas that still exists and like you say surgeon it's that unconscious bias I suspect that's still in there with a lot of. There's that test that they often say in, team building things or training days of, a surgeon and his son are driving in a car and there's a car crash. Yeah, and then the son goes to the hospital and the surgeon says, I can't operate on him, he's my son. Explain. I'm like the surgeon's his mum. But you immediately think, oh, he's gay. Or something, yeah. He's incestuous, his grandfather is, his dad. Yeah, it must be. Can't possibly be a woman. Yeah, and I still think, I think that starts from a really young level though, because like, as soon as you said women in medicine just then, my first thought that flashed in my mind was, Florence Nightingale. And I got um, images of Mrs Cobb who was our primary school teacher teaching us about Florence Nightingale, because that's what we were taught. And actually, It's so, internalized. Yeah. That thought process. So,, and that's me and we do this podcast, which is purely about highlighting women in male dominated fields. Um, yeah. If it's internalised for you, then frankly, the rest of us are screwed. Well, you'd think so, wouldn't you? So yeah, I kind of, I love it. I love that this has been going on forever, and that she passed that baton on, like she was like, well, come and train with me. I'll teach you. That spread of knowledge is so powerful. I will give you this step up, this helping hand, this opportunity. Love it. She wasn't only a physician, um, sort of in keeping with her work in the medical field, she was a vocal advocate for women's rights, particularly in relation to women's suffrage. Yep, makes sense. Advocate. advocacy for the right to vote closely tied to her belief that women should have equal access to opportunities in all spheres of society. It's like she knew what her values were and she stood by them throughout all the time. Stood by them, acted on them, vocalised them, yeah, and showed some consistency. Consistently, yeah. And she wasn't having these opinions for, they weren't like a power play because she wanted to be in charge of something, she just, Thought that was the right thing, and she got on with it. Um, yeah, there's equal opportunities in all spheres of society, including education, employment, and political participation. Nice. Anderson's involvement in the suffrage movement came at a time where women were still surprise, largely excluded from political life and were considered incapable of contributing to the democratic process. Presumably for the same reason they were incapable of being doctors or incapable of being scientists, etc. Her support for the women's political rights led to her active participation in various suffrage organizations. So she worked closely with the Women's Social and Political Union. This was founded by Emmeline Pankhurst. Yeah. Which, as an organization was known for its more militant tactics, Anderson's approach was more moderate. So she was careful not to alienate those who were sort of hesitant to embrace these more radical aspects of the suffrage movement. Okay. Which you see these days with the, was it the Stop Oil, what's that organisation called? Yeah, yeah, just Stop Oil. So, we're saying that she was less radical, she was less in your face after. She was less radical. Okay. Yeah. Is that, what did she do speeches and demonstrations or? Speeches, civic engagements. just drawing attention to it in a non shouting, non blocking the roads and disruptive way. Just making arguments in favour of it. But I mean, she was also still running the hospital. She was a busy bee, to be honest. She was a busy bee. She was saving people's lives. she not only contributed to this broader suffrage movement, but raised awareness of this interconnectedness of women's health, education and political rights. I really like this. Yeah, it's like, a rising tide, everyone, everything rises with it And by having more political rights, you then get more political involvement, you get more of a say, you get more, lobbying on your behalf for what you need, which then improves the other services, which improves your access to things, which then just, so everything rises together. That makes me really happy. And she must have learnt that. From somewhere, I wonder what influenced her and what, apart from her dad, because her dad sounded like he was really active in her tuition but she must have pieced together society at some form, or maybe it was just as simple as, I've been excluded from this, this, this, this, I want this, this, this, this, and actually if I had all these things, I would, be ten times more productive, Despite her effort and ability, the exclusion from it just for being a woman. Yeah. And also, you know, first hand experience of women's health, because she's a woman. Yes. And seeing how, how poor it all is and realising that the only way to get improvement is for is to be at the table. She must have had so much influence, I know I've said it before, but she must have had some real vigor behind her to get people to listen. And money, obviously, but to get, because these are actions it's not passive, yeah. Yeah, As life progressed, she married James Anderson and was mother to two daughters, so her involvement in a medical practice did slow down. She was then a wife and mother as well. And although her sort of ability, her time available to be involved in the medical practice diminished, she was still, she remained as determined and committed to medical rights, women's rights. medical reform. She remained active in these women's organizations, continuing to work for the betterment of women's position in society, all the way through to her retirement then in 1902, where she retired to Olderborough. on the Suffolk coast. So she was 66 at the time of retirement. And what's a sensible thing to do when you retire to a small town on the Suffolk coast? Well, you spend six years building up your reputation. And in 1908, she became the town's mayor. Yes. And she was, uh, I like the idea that she's just causing havoc in this small Suffolk town, like pure havoc. Imagine it as a really sleepy little parish. Yeah. From London, from setting up a brand new hospital in London, she just storms this little parish. I love it. What the hell are you guys playing at? Okay, someone's got to take control here. But that made her the first ever female mayor in England. Oh, wow. She was the first female doctor. The first of many. Wow, that's amazing. I didn't know that. That's very cool. I wouldn't have even thought about it. Like, the first mare. Yeah. And when was that? Did you say 1902? 1908 she became mayor. Oh, because six years, yeah. 1908. Hey! Which is quite a political position in and of itself, isn't it really? That's what she's doing for for the suffragette movement. And then, oh yeah, by the way, I'm mayor. Come on! That's very cool. That's cool, right? Yeah. I mean the, her achievements and her influence are something we still feel today. So she was an absolute trailblazer, opening the door for these future generations of women to pursue careers in medicine and to become leaders in their communities. She was not only the first woman to qualify as a doctor in the UK, but played a really central role in challenging these societal norms that tended to relegate women to subordinate roles in all aspects of life. She proved that women were indeed capable of achieving excellence in any field they set their mind to, provided they're given the opportunities to do so. And that sort of goes back to what you were saying earlier. It's often just a case that people need an opportunity. Yeah. Just open that door. Yeah. Yeah. This idea of equality of opportunity is just so important. And it sounds like she was a good doctor. Like, Yeah. It sounds like she provided pretty good care from the vibe that I'm getting. There's no like scandalous stories. I mean, she had two medical degrees, so, you know, Yeah, she kind of knew what she was doing. Yeah. Her legacy really is a testament to the power of resilience and the importance of challenging the status quo. As the founder of the New Hospital for Women and a key player in the women's suffrage movement, Anderson's contributions to social reform and gender equality have had a lasting impact on both the medical profession and society at large. She is today remembered as a pioneering physician and a steadfast advocate for women's rights. Her legacy, I guess, is all the women who came after her, right? That's her legacy. It's like, oh, by the way, there's hundreds of thousands of us that will Yeah. Yeah. And she opened that door and led the way for others. And sort of knocked the first bricks out of that wall. Yes. Holding them back. So it's just a little bit easier. And again, as we find in so many of our stories, it's not, it's not black or white. but it's just chipping away at those barriers and it's easier for the next generation and easier for the generation after that. Wow, that, I didn't know that story, so thank you so much, that's, I can't believe we don't know about her. Yeah, first Doctor. Yeah, I think you've definitely got room in the curriculum, haven't you, to put her at least alongside Florence Nightingale. Yeah. Because, it sounds like she did so much off her own back, and, because a few people let her in, she managed to change society for so much better. Yeah. Yeah. And like you said, living your values all the way through your life, I love that, like, It's just stuck to it the whole time. Yeah, like whether it's suffrages, whether it's the Suffolk coastline, She was consistently herself, and she stood by it. And she may not have always had time to take the action that she wanted. She may not have agreed with the methods that other people were using to go about it, but she believed in that fundamental cause. And supported it, yeah. And supported it, yeah. Yeah, throughout her life. I think we could all do a bit more of that, making sure your values echo through all different parts of your life. Yeah. Especially today when the word authenticity is just thrown about so much, isn't it? Like, I think it's an overused word. Well they seem to be living in one of the most inauthentic times in history because it's so easy for people to portray a curated version of themselves or hide particular aspects. Yeah. I've um, so full disclosure, uh, I'm addicted to Love Island. Love Island. Nothing wrong with Love Island, yeah. It's brilliant. The latest episode is Is it on now? I thought it was a summer thing. It's on now, it's Love Island All Stars, so it's people who've been on it before, yeah. Oh my goodness, been on it before! Yeah, maybe calling them stars is a bit of a stretch. Second time looking! Yeah, well Casey's been on it three times now. Casey! Oh, Casey, babe! One thing that really irritates me about the fellas on there, and generally they seem like a nice bunch, fine, it really pisses me off that when one of the guys does something sleazy, something bad, lies, or something, whatever the The guy does something wrong. When the other fellas find out about it, and they're having a chat together, the guy's Don't call them out on it. They turn it into a laddish thing. They don't actually say to them, Yeah, actually, you've been a bit of a dickhead. I think you should apologise for that. Don't do that. That's a really disrespectful way to behave, isn't it? And then when they speak to the women in Love Island, when they speak to this lad's partner, they're then buddying up to the woman and saying, yeah, it's awful what you did, isn't it? It was really disrespectful. So, they know that So they know? You know whether it's the right or the wrong thing to do, unless you're a particular kind of sociopath or psychopath. And I'm always really disappointed when men don't call out other men for bad behavior. It's such an easy thing for men to do as a life. It might not feel easy at the time, but in terms of what you can contribute to society, it is minimal. You should be doing it as a bare minimum. And I think it's such a powerful, it can have such a powerful impact on whomever you're calling out. So I don't know why they think it's acceptable to really enable someone else to Anyway, so Love Island, I love it, but it's really winding me up. Yeah, we tend to have a sort of a binge day where we catch up on a few. Oh nice! When we're knackered at the end of the week, I think we'll get two episodes in tonight. Nice, quite right. Go down, light the fire, make a bit of dinner, get ready for Kat to come over and watch some Love Island. That sounds lovely, we'll have a fabulous time. Sounds great, well thanks Simon. Thanks for teaching us, that was really interesting. And a happy story, I like it. Thanks for listening. If you enjoyed, please like, rate and subscribe. Leave us a comment, have a look at our Facebook page. She Changed History. It's also our Instagram where we do little updates, little snippets, little previews, and send us your ideas for any stories, big or small, whether it's changing the history of the world or changing the history of just your family life. Uh, we'd love to hear about victories, big or small. Yes. Yes, please. That'd be amazing. Thanks so much for listening and we'll catch you next time. Thanks. Catch you next time. Bye.