The Business of Life with Dr King
Dr Ariel Rosita King brings on a variety of International guests from various countries, cultures, organisations, and businesses to talk about turning
problem into possibilities! Let's turn our challenges in opportunities together!
The Business of Life with Dr King
Hair Today, Hired Tomorrow? How Workplace Bias Affects Black Women with Gloria Tabi (Australia)
What if everything we think we know about workplace racism is missing the mark? Gloria Tabi, a Sydney-based organizational justice specialist, challenges our understanding with a powerful insight: "Be gentle on people and harsh on the systems."
Through her work helping organizations cultivate cultures of inclusion, Gloria Tabi reveals how racism operates primarily through structures rather than individuals. Drawing from her experiences across 13 countries on multiple continents, she explains that no matter how kind people are, structural barriers will continue disadvantaging certain groups unless we address the systems themselves.
Gloria Tabi unpacks four interconnected types of racism—structural, institutional, interpersonal, and internalised—explaining why most workplace initiatives focus narrowly on interpersonal issues while leaving the underlying structures untouched. With compelling examples like hair discrimination against Black women (who research shows are less likely to be employed or promoted when wearing their natural hair), she demonstrates how these aren't merely individual biases but systemic barriers embedded in professional norms.
The business case for inclusion goes beyond morality. With declining birth rates globally, companies excluding diverse talent limit their access to innovation, fresh perspectives, and emerging markets like Africa with its young, growing population. As Tabi emphasises, "Being an inclusive organisation is for your innovation and to future-proof your business."
Rather than conducting one-off training sessions that burden employees, Gloria advises leaders to engage knowledgeable consultants, commit to ongoing conversations about inclusion, and focus first on examining organizational systems and practices. By understanding how exclusion operates systematically, businesses can create meaningful change that benefits everyone.
Ready to transform how your organization approaches inclusion? Connect with Gloria Tabi on LinkedIn or learn about her work addressing hair stigma through Enable Women Africa foundation at enablewomenafrica@gmail.com.
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Teach me to live one day at a time
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Giving me the ability to love and accept myself
so I can go and give it to someone else.
Teach me to live one day at a time.....
The Business of Life
Dr Ariella (Ariel) Rosita King
Original Song, "Teach Me to Live one Day At A Time"
written, guitar and vocals by Dr. Ariel Rosita King
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of life. Today we have a very special guest with us all the way from Australia Lady Gloria Tabby. Welcome, lady Tabby, thank you.
Gloria Tabi (Australia):Don't touch the button. Okay, I'm going to get a glue and glue your Hello and welcome to the Business of Life.
Dr Ariel R King:Today we have a very special guest all the way from Astoria, lady Gloria Tabi. Welcome, gloria Tabi. How are you?
Gloria Tabi (Australia):I'm very good and I'm really pleased to be here with you. Thanks for having me, dr King.
Dr Ariel R King:Thank you so much. Tell our audience today. What subject? Can you first tell us a little bit about yourself and also the subject for today yeah, sure.
Gloria Tabi (Australia):So, like you have said before, I live in australia, sydney in particular, um, in a place called blue mountains, so it's the west of sydney. So when you arrive in the airport, I'm on the west side of the airport in a place called Blue Mountains really beautiful and I live here with my husband, my daughter and our dog, mia.
Dr Ariel R King:Beautiful. Thank you so much. And what subject are we going to be speaking about today?
Gloria Tabi (Australia):Hmm, so I am a researcher on race, so I call myself an organizational justice specialist. I help organizations, leaders, to cultivate a culture of inclusion in the workplace. Cultivate a culture of inclusion in the workplace to support your staff and future-proof your business, because, as we know, the world is becoming very globalised, and a leader who is able to lead in the 21st century by understanding the importance of working with different demographics and diversity is the one that's going to keep their business afloat. And so, yes, that's what I do in my day job.
Dr Ariel R King:That's absolutely wonderful. I love that it's such an important subject. You know all of us being able to be included and using all the talents that you possibly can to meet whatever goal that you'd like to meet that's really wonderful. Can you tell us more about what you do besides that or in addition to that?
Gloria Tabi (Australia):Oh okay. So I came into this space that I work in workplace inclusion after myself working in professional environment for many, many years and experiencing racism all of my life, and wanted to understand why. You know, people around me were nice and kind I can count on one hand how many times someone has said a wrong word to me on the street but yet I face disadvantage on a perpetual and so I wanted to understand why that was, and so it took me into the area of research, looking at race, the structure of race and why some people are placed on a disadvantage, irrespective of the educational background or experience, and that was a really interesting finding. So a few years ago, I wrote a book called Inclusive Teams and Web Places sort of you know, using all the knowledge that I was learning into writing a book that gave leaders some ideas about you know what causes exclusion? Because the opposite of inclusion is exclusion, and we need inclusion because there's a lot of exclusion in the workplace, and that's what I've been trying for the last little while to help leaders to come to understanding of it.
Gloria Tabi (Australia):And exclusion happens because of racism. Look at all the workplace ills sexism, issues with gender diversity and things like that it all stems from exclusion, and the strongest category of exclusion is racism. So when we actually understand racism and able to solve racism problems, we are able to solve other problems all simultaneously. But we can't do it the other way around. So we can't solve gender problems and be able to solve racism problems but because of compounding effect, or probably a lot of your listeners have heard about intersectionality when we actually become more skilled in solving racism problems, we help everyone along the way, and a lot of the times leaders can be a little bit faceted on one aspect within the intersectionality, like gender. Why sort of forgetting all the other intersectionalities and what? My job, what I do, is to actually bring the focus on race, because when we're able to solve that problem, we're able to speed up solving other problems along the way.
Dr Ariel R King:I think that's such an important topic and, even more importantly, one that's not necessarily studied and looked at very seriously, because many times we think, well, you know, all we have to do is tell them to stop it, and if we just tell them to stop it, that's enough, or if we just bring it to their attention. What's interesting to me is that you had decided that this is something that you wanted to really understand. So can I ask you, from your perspective, what have you learned and what do you understand now about this issue of racism or race?
Gloria Tabi (Australia):It's a great question and it's interesting that you just said you know, if only we tell people to change their behaviour and be nice. But it's more than that. I have a motto that I often will say at the start of my facilitation or workshop, and it goes like this we need to be gentle on people and harsh on the systems, because the systems is actually what keep us in perpetual. And the topic I'll share with you a bit later about, say, hate, discrimination, it's about systems. Systems have designed to put certain people on the lower end of the hierarchy. You know, the illusional hierarchy that we've created in society. So, irrespective of where you're placed, that's where society has placed you.
Gloria Tabi (Australia):And so, yes, it's racism, but it's not an individual person doing that to you, it's the structure.
Gloria Tabi (Australia):And so I actually try to bring people together so that we can, together solve the problem of the structure.
Gloria Tabi (Australia):And so one of the things about me which I didn't say earlier half my family are white by marriage, and so my kids are mixed, my husband is white, and so all my life what I've tried to do is to be able to bring people together, is to be able to bring people together, and so I am very, very hard on the system, because that's the system is what produces racism and create the problems that we have.
Gloria Tabi (Australia):But then we need to be gentle on people by helping them understand how the system works so that together we can work together to solve the problems of the system. And so that's the difference in terms of spending some time to understand how the system works or someone just going on doing workplace inclusion who does not understand how the problem of exclusion actually comes about. And so, yes, once you understand that, then you can see that people are not necessarily the problem, that we are all implicated in this. And so then how can we better communicate how this system, you know, oppress some people but not others, so that together we use that energy in in fixing the system rather than trying to fix people?
Dr Ariel R King:so I love that that's such a different perspective, because many people think, oh well, this person is racist or that person is racist, and it's not necessarily the person, it's the structure. And also I thought it was very interesting that you said you have family that's white, and so for most people, this is of either European descent or Pacific Islander descent, and when we're talking about black or colors or others, I guess we're talking about Indian, indonesian or Asian or of African descent. So what's really interesting to me is that, even though we have people from various cultures and various countries, we actually are dividing it into melanin, which is a bit strange. What do you think about that?
Gloria Tabi (Australia):Well, that's just how the system has created us. So society is divided into groups, and these groups are very rigid. You know we have that rigid. You know male, female, and it's only in the last few years that we are challenging these boundaries. You know black and white, this and that, but what we don't stop to ask the question is who created it and why do we have these rigid structures? And these structures is how everything is operated under. You know, we used to have a job just for a woman and a job just for a man, a job that white people did and a job that black people were supposed to do, and you know all of that in US.
Dr Ariel R King:You know Some people were slaves, other people were masters.
Dr Ariel R King:So worldwide, not just in the US, literally worldwide I've lived in 13 countries in three or four, three continents, maybe even four continents, but definitely traveled to four continents. And what's really strange is that there's always a hierarchy, there's always an underclass, and sometimes it is based on what you can see, because that's the easiest way to maybe put people in the hierarchy. I'm wondering do you think any of this has to do with? Not that it's acceptable, but any of this has to do with human beings trying to figure out how to put themselves on top and how to gain advantage.
Gloria Tabi (Australia):It's true, there's no doubt about that. But what I also try to let people understand is that these structures were there and created by someone, and so in order for us to even want to be able to change the structure, we need to understand how the structure was created and for what purpose. Structure was created and for what purpose. And so it's a bit like businesses will say to you it's really important you understand the problem of your client, your customer, so then you can solve their pain. But when we are dealing with these societal structures, we just want to prescribe solutions without understanding the purpose and the function of those structures. And that's what I try to put the breakdown and bring people a little bit. It's like put breakdown and understand the structure which is the problem, then you'll be able to have a better way of solving it. But we don't do that. We jump into solutions, we jump into strategies, and my work in the last few years is well, I actually want you to understand how the structure works first.
Dr Ariel R King:I love it. I'm so interested in this and I find it so fascinating. Can you tell us more about the structures that you see, and how do we then, once we understand the structure, what's next?
Gloria Tabi (Australia):Yeah well, we're not going to be able to understand the structure in a 30-minute conversation, but at least I want to introduce, but at least we can start 30-minute conversation but at least I want to introduce but at least we can start, yes, at least.
Gloria Tabi (Australia):I want to introduce the idea that racism that we see. You know, there are four types of racism, if you like. We have structural racism, institutional racism, we have interpersonal racism and internalized racism. All four of these work together to inflict oppression on certain groups of people who the structure has determined are at the bottom of the hierarchy. Okay, and so what normally we are familiar with is the interpersonal racism what happens between two people, what happens on the street, in the workplaces, and while we are busy trying to find solutions to deal with the interpersonal racism, the structural racism is untouched. It's working perfectly fine. Same with the.
Gloria Tabi (Australia):Now and then we hear a little bit about institutional racism. But all of this type of racism are there because of the structure. The structure is what produces it. So what I'm actually trying to in this short conversation is that I want leaders to start asking the question so what's the structure? How does it function? How can we better understand it? Because that's actually how we are going to be able to solve the problem. We spend all our resources and our strategies on the interpersonal issues between people and I'm saying to you, is that? Be gentle with people, because their interpersonal problems are there because of the structure, the one that's lying there doing what they need to do, but no one is disturbing it because no one understands it. Okay, and so that's why it's important, if we're dealing with consultants in the business world and I know that this podcast is for business and leaders, and often they will have a DEI person come in and things like that it's very important that they have a DEI consultant who understands the system of race.
Dr Ariel R King:So DEI can you tell people what DEI is? Some people don't know what DEI is.
Gloria Tabi (Australia):Sure, dei is diversity, equity and inclusion, and that sort of came about, you know, after George Floyd who was brutally murdered on the street of the United States, and so companies decided to invest and bring DEI into their organisation diversity, equity and inclusion to try and solve some of these problems. And that type of programme was really important. But what was missing is that people that are leading it had no understanding of how the structure works, and so the DEI definitely helped. You know a lot of white women moving into leadership, people from gender diverse and so forth, but race was always at the bottom Again, even in a program that was supposed to help the most marginalized. So race is always left out, and in my work I try to bring that into the forefront so that we can deal with exclusion problems in the workplace.
Dr Ariel R King:Thank you. I think that's so important and I know that 30 minutes is not enough, and I know that 30 minutes is not enough, but even you taught me that there are four types of racism. I had no idea about that, so that's really important. Can you tell us more about this and teach us more so we can go out there and perhaps start to have an understanding of what we're looking at and how we can better be effective?
Gloria Tabi (Australia):Yeah, so the structure of race was created, obviously by Europeans to oppress non-Europeans. This was, you know, hundreds and hundreds of years ago, and, as a result, black people, africans, were shipped from Africa to different parts of the world as slaves, and so the structure never actually stopped. It went on for a long time, but we didn't actually have a vocabulary of explaining racism until, of course, what happened in Europe in the Holocaust. But before that, 200 years before that, africans were being shipped to all different parts of the world. That's the structure. That's racism, but we didn't have terminology to even describe it. Structured as racism, but we didn't have technology to even describe it. So your ancestors, my ancestors, were being treated that way back then, even before the Holocaust.
Gloria Tabi (Australia):And then we started to actually bring this idea of you know what's racism and why is it, you know, oppressing certain people. So it's been going on for a long time and it changes forms in different ways. My supervisor from university, Alana Lenton, actually calls it. You know. It's a structure that produces and reproduces over time Whatever is happening in the world at that time. The structure attaches itself and perpetuates racism, whatever. We saw it during COVID, where Chinese, asian people were being targeted at that time. So, whatever is happening in the world at any point in time, destructors are touches and oppress certain people, but anti-blackness is the constant denominator. It doesn't matter what's happening in the world, anti-blackness always get it and it's been like that for a very long time. And for us to be able to have a different system, we need to look at, you know, people that have been put at the bottom of the structure differently and start seeing them as equals and human, so that we treat them in the same manner that we treat everyone. Otherwise, it just continues. So, like I said, it's not going to be solved in a 30-minute conversation. It's taken me years to get my head around it, but at least it starts the conversation that if businesses wants to solve racism problems, it's important that instead of doing training of their staff, which will only deal with the interpersonal racism, I'm saying to them to actually suspend that and look at their processes, their practices and policies. Those are the places where the structure can lodge themselves to create inequalities for certain groups of people. So it doesn't matter how nice and kind people are If you have a system and when I talk about system, I'm talking about your practices and your policies that disadvantage certain groups of people, then everyone can be nice and they will still be disadvantaged. So change those systems first. Change those systems first. And often people will say to me you know systems is too hard basket, you know that's too difficult, but it's not so.
Gloria Tabi (Australia):Let me use this example hair Black women all around the world, doesn't matter which part of the world you're in. That's a structural system. So people can be nice. But then there's research by Dove recently, a few years ago, and that research found out that black women with hair like mine, who don't wear a wig to hide their Afro hair, are less likely to be employed or promoted. And that's very recent.
Gloria Tabi (Australia):So how come black women's hair are not accepted in the workplace? That's structural, are not accepted in the workplace. That's structural. So for us to be able to solve that problem, we need to as a society, in our policies in workplaces, to be able to say that well, that actually discriminates against this group of people, humans in our spaces. So let's redress that, let's start promoting that black women's hair is not unprofessional and invite them into leadership. I can almost guarantee that most black women in high position and I'm talking about ASX sort of level oftentimes are wearing a wig, they are hiding their natural hair.
Gloria Tabi (Australia):Well, the system is too hard to understand.
Gloria Tabi (Australia):I've just given you an example of how the system can continually be oppressing groups of people in your workplaces. So if we don't want that, then what we do is that we will make sure we mentor and employ black women with natural hair so that they can be seen. You will have them on your brushes, on your marketing materials, so that all young black girls can see that if I have got my natural hair, which we are born with, it's going to be all right in the workplace, because look at that, you know, Miss Tabby over there is one of the leaders for this big organisation. But do we see that? So instead of going and doing training to make your staff and putting a burden on your staff to be having to treat people nicely and kind, change your system. So I've just given you one example that you can do from today that I love that you have black women that look like me on your brochures, on your website, showing their natural hair, but the problem is we don't see that and that's a structural issue, Can I ask?
Dr Ariel R King:it would seem to me that, without having the diversity that you're talking about, there's an economic cost to companies. Do you know? Is there an economic cost, and if so, what is it? So companies and businesses start to understand that this is not just a matter of a humanistic idea, but this is a matter of economics, which is quite important for companies. Oh it is.
Gloria Tabi (Australia):It really is. What's happening is that, I mean, the birth rate all around the world have declined. In Australia it is I don't know the figures that I can give you right now, but it is and there's a whole group of people who are qualified to do jobs who companies are not using because of systemic discrimination, racism, sexism and a whole host of you know, exclusionary practices, and so those people bring innovation, different ways of thinking, different markets. I mean, africa is actually a young country, you know, where human capital is blossoming, and so, if we don't tap into those demographics, companies that are rigid are the ones that are going to lose out in years to come, and so being actually an inclusive organisation is for your innovation and to future-proof your business, to make sure that you are relevant in years to come. So it's actually imperative to invest in this kind of ways of doing business, because the world is changing very rapidly.
Dr Ariel R King:What I love also about what we're talking about is that so many times the change is put on the shoulders of all of us as individuals and sometimes that works. But that works just little by little, little by little. And I think that literally, looking at the structure and looking at how does the structure in place if not encourage, uh discourages, a possibility of some kind of also conformity, but but at least accepting diversity and inclusion as something that's important, whatever that means for that company, and that basically it affects the bottom line, it affects how they do it and what they do. And what I love about what you're talking about is that I've never looked at it that way and even though 30 minutes is not enough, I've learned so much in 30 minutes. So may I ask, in our last several minutes, are there, is there some, I would say, some tips that you can give companies and businesses on how they can start to look at this issue?
Gloria Tabi (Australia):Well, first of all, I would encourage them to, if they want to be an inclusive organisation which I'm proposing that is going to support your business now and into the future. Then the employer consultant that understand this issue of exclusion so that they can bring them to speed. And so that is really important. And these days you can, you know, engage consultants all around the world. You know, if you feel you can't find one in your county, I'm sure you just have to get into LinkedIn I mean, that's how we met on LinkedIn and you'll be able to source consultants to really help you deal with the issue of exclusion.
Gloria Tabi (Australia):That's the first thing I would say. And it's not a one-time event, you know, it's a process, and that you continue on that process, that you don't just have one guest speaker and then that's it. It's actually an ongoing conversation and please don't burden your staff with inclusions. Training on two leaders. You understand how this problem comes about and you are prepared to work within your systems and practices and then bring your staff in, because sometimes we can have inclusion fatigue without actually doing very little in changing the problems or solving the problem.
Dr Ariel R King:So that's what I would say.
Gloria Tabi (Australia):Thank you If I've got time to just put this call out so throughout this work that I do and I just shared about hair discrimination. Just then, about the stigma that we have about black women's hair, is that there is a foundation, enable Women Africa, which looks at helping leaders to solve this issue of hair stigma for our young ones, because the problem that we are having, having this stigma, it's a cost to us as a society because young black girls start thinking that they can't wear their hair natural, so they have to wear wigs to cover it. And have we actually stopped and asked the question what happens with the used wig? What happens?
Dr Ariel R King:They are not biodegradable, by the way, May I ask I'm sorry, pentrop, can I ask you how can we get in touch with you? This foundation is so important, so can you tell us more about how to get in touch? We literally have one minute and I don't want the time to go before we know how to get in touch with this foundation and get in touch with you. Thank you.
Gloria Tabi (Australia):Yes, please, you can get in touch with me on LinkedIn, gloria Tabby. Very easy to find me. Gloria Tabby, based in Sydney, australia. So if anything, you can link me on LinkedIn and find me there. Enablewomenafrica at gmailcom. That's our email. You can also get us through there. We don't have a website yet, but we're in the process of establishing that. So, please, you find me on LinkedIn or enablewomenafrica, one word at gmailcom. You'll be able to also find me there. Dot com. You'll be able to also find me there.
Dr Ariel R King:I want to thank you so much, lady Gloria Tabi. It's a wonderful conversation and, you're right, 30 minutes is not enough, so I'd like to invite you back again to have another conversation, especially about looking at structure. Extremely interesting and extremely helpful. Thank you, and, for our audience, thank you for being with us. If I am not for myself, who will be for me? If I am only for myself, what am I? If not now, then when? That's by the philosopher Hillel and I've added if not me, then who? Thank you so much for joining us.
Gloria Tabi (Australia):Thank you.