How and when to tell kids about an autism diagnosis?

Joelle and Gillian draw on their years of conducting autism evaluations, and interpreting the results of these evaluations with children and families to share their perspective on disclosing this diagnostic information.  Both note that despite the nervousness parents and psychologists both can feel before letting children know about an autism diagnosis, these conversations are typically somewhere between neutral and very positive for the children and adolescents receiving the information.  Joelle and Gillian stress the importance of getting informing adults connected to a neurodiversity affirming stance that autism is not bad news, before as promptly as possible sharing with a child what we know about their brain, and offering a framework for healthy integration.  

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Gillian: https://www.instagram.com/clearconnectionpsychology/

Joelle: https://www.instagram.com/joelle.vanlent/

Transcript

Okay, welcome back to Stance of Curiosity, I'm Gillian Boudreau, and I'm Joelle van Lent. Welcome everyone! Um, we have a topic today that we're both pretty jazzed about. Um, so uh, Joelle, you still do a ton of evaluations in schools right? Um, and I have done tons at other times in my practice, now I'm usually more on the side of um, working with a child and a family, and helping them sort of make sense of the results of an evaluation. Um, but it sounds like we both have recently had some exciting experiences especially in the realm of autism diagnosis and talking about those diagnoses with kids and families so we're going to dive into that. Today, yeah, a lot of times parents and teachers will ask really good questions about if we're doing an evaluation where the team is asking the autism question: should they tell the student or child client um that that is what is being evaluated at what age does that make sense?

And then, if we decide yes, this person's characteristics or presentation matches autism, we think they are an autistic person. Should we tell them that information and how? Yeah, I wonder okay so I wonder if we could just sort of list out what often are the concerns of the adults about this right um, so really this was true when I was doing a lot of evaluations. But it definitely is true when I'm working with parents who have received right this diagnosis, their child, you know, I think. Parents are classically worried that if we do tell a child they might feel different. I think parents um sometimes have had their own experiences with um maybe um folks who were autistic and but you know are recognizing that sometimes that has been portrayed um negatively um in media and things like that and there might be a concern that okay now is this kid who maybe already was having a bit of a hard time in some way is going to,

um, like increased negative self-beliefs basically if they if they know or think this about themselves is that in the vein of of concerns that you often run into as well, yeah, for sure. And also, I think some, I think a lot of the time, the two main questions that I get are: people don't know the words-like, how exactly would I explain that? And so, obviously very different if it's a five-year-old versus a 10-year-old versus a 50-year-old versus a 50-year-old versus a 50-year-old versus a 25-year-old. So, how, what are the words that I use? I think maybe wanting a script to to bounce off from. And then also, I think, um, sometimes, I think parents need some time to process and digest that information.

Themselves and so I think, wondering about like what is the lag time between I'm understanding this and learning about it myself versus I'm the one who's helping my child, and I'm the one who's helping my child, and I'm the one who's helping my child however old they are make sense of that, so like timing-wise, um, and then um, wondering if there are like you know resources or reference points that we can point people to as you know as they start learning more about it, but I I feel like the main hesitation is I don't know the words to use, I don't know what to say, yeah that makes a lot of sense I think I I think I run into that as well um you.

Know, the kind of adult integration piece right or um, especially parents or caregivers having a chance to come to a a solid understanding of it themselves before they share um, I, I think that that is really important. Um, the way that I will often try to help families with that is that um, you know, it's firmly my clinical understanding that um, I don't feel like autism is bad news and I, I you know, I think I know that you're on the same page, it's you know, I really do see it as simply a different neurotype and in fact a form of neurodiversity that our species really needs um, and then I also hold that juxtaposed against the fact That this is in many ways a world built by neurotypicals for neurotypicals, so I think that that's a really important thing to think about, and I think that that's a really important thing to think about.

So it often is more difficult to be autistic, and then that needs to be honored and worked with. And hopefully over time, more and more we're creating a world where it's it's not more difficult to be to be autistic, but so-so. I think the because kids really do pick up on the state of their caregivers, I think that there is some merit to the idea of you know, let's do some work with first and see if we can really help them get to a place where They genuinely do not feel like this is bad news, while also understanding that right, the nuance and the extra need for advocacy and support due to the external context, right, more than due to autism itself inherently being a problem.

Um, but I also believe that you know there's a certain time window for that. But even if parents are struggling, I do think that at a certain point, kids also need need to know. Yeah, I totally agree. I don't think it's bad news and I will say that I've been doing autism avows for 15 years-ish and I cannot think of one example where the young person that we were evaluating had a negative response to that. Information, it's been so consistently relieving, yeah, feeling validation. Um, many, many students have said, 'Oh, good! So, there's nothing wrong with me.' Yes, which is really fascinating, and I think we could maybe take some credit that, obviously, we explained it in a good enough way that they felt like, 'Oh, good!

There's not something wrong with me.' I also think that it's just it just speaks to the importance of letting people know we've learned something about your brain and how it's wired, and you have already know because you live with this brain and navigate it. You know that you have some superpowers and you have some incredible Skills and strengths, and then you have some things that are hard for you that might actually interestingly be effortless for other people. So what is effortless for you might be really hard for other people. What is hard for you might be effortless for others. It's just different there's a name for it, it's just a name for it and a whole amazing world of people who are aligning and connecting around understanding it and it's just incredible.

Um, few relief some parents I think my the the response of parents has been widely varied. The response of of young people has been actually remarkably like pretty consistent so parents. Are all the way from grieving that information to celebrating that validation, and, and clarification themselves, and you know sort of everything in between, so I totally agree with you that it doesn't ever feel urgent, you know. I think it's really about letting parents have some time, and then um supporting them with role playing and scripts and whatever that might be, because it just means different it means different things to different people, and luckily the generation that's growing up right now is in a world where you know neurodivergence is such a common thing, and I think it's really important that parents Have some time and concept, and not one that has negative connotation, but a lot of their parents were not did not grow up in that time, yes, that's right.

So it's sort of like updating parents-who, did you know if they're about our age or older, right? They did not grow up in a time of like neurodiversity affirming stuff um and also if they're you know if they're not like themselves mental health providers right, they wouldn't have had access, like there's there's been we've had a lot of parents who have had, we still have a long way to go but I feel like even in the last 10 years there's been a huge change in you know how how we consider Autism, right, and even thinking about um you know something called the social model of disability, right, which basically says are there elements of disability to this, yes, but is it because of context rather than um inherent inability, also yes.

Um I would also really agree that and it's funny, right? I mean I wonder if this is like you know uh sometimes folks will refer to non-autistic people as like allistic people so I'll just use that, I'll use that to describe myself for the purposes of this conversation. I wonder if it's sort of an allistic person thing that we get so nervous about just the truth, right? I mean I feel like one quality of allistic folks right compared to autistic folks is allistic folks like we are not as comfortable with just the truth you know like we will be a lot more hand wavy like we really kind of want a white lie and

we're just you know like whereas i don't know autistic every every autistic person is different and also i feel like one common quality of autistic folks is they're they're pretty comfortable with the truth right what they're what they're not comfortable with is like untruth um and so i am allistic so i'm a little less comfortable sometimes with what i worry might be difficult truths so even though this is Like my job, even though I um identify as being very neurodiversity affirming, even though like I too have been in this position so many times and it always goes well with the kiddo, I still do get nervous for yeah for what we call a a

disclosure process which in in my practice usually looks like you know I will have really like tried to get on the same page and the team with the parents beforehand maybe we've even like written out you know some bullet points that we're all going to work together to to sort of get to when we talk to the kid um you know and I think that's a really, usually about autism being a difference and then Hopefully, pulling out things specific to the kid that they already know about themselves and are comfortable with about themselves, like you might feel really frustrated if you have a clear way to solve a problem and it feels like nobody else is doing that or if it's very clear to you what the rules of the situation are and it feels like nobody else is following them.

Right, so things that the kid might already recognize as being true for them and also recognize as being frustrating for them right can sometimes be a little bit more frustrating for them and I think that's a really good way to be a good in road. Far as like, oh it turns out that this is related to autism. Um, like once we are you know, even though we've done so much preparation, there's still nervousness and I still find myself being like, 'Oh, but is this going to be the time that you know the kid is really upset?' And I, I just have to really trust the process because again and again it's not an often quite the opposite.

Um, you know, recently I had an experience where there's a child who I've been working with and I've been working with for a long time, and I've been working with a child who um, and who I, who I think this is my clinical interpretation but I think has probably been feeling Enough knowledge that things have been hard, especially in the social realm or just you know in relationships with other humans, that's been very clear to this person, but because there there was no understanding that this kid had about that other than just something must be wrong with me. Um, it's it's been really difficult to talk about. You know, there's there's been a lot of um, you know, reactivity sometimes, but also just refusal sometimes to even um, acknowledge any of that or go toward those topics, right?

Even for example if I've gotten a call from a school, it can be it has in the past been hard to process that. With um, this particular okay though right? Because that you could just see the wall go down and it's too much. And then amazingly, right? We had this conversation, um, and sort of put in context, right? That oh, it's actually very very common for autistic folks to get into translation challenges with folks who are not autistic. Here's how we can think about that. When I tell you know, I then i got a message from this kiddo's parents, who, who are like now, this kiddo has a framework, and they're telling us they're

coming home, and they're just telling us all about the things that happened to them, and and you know how like what they thought their part of it might be but also where they might need you know more flexibility from the other side this this person called their own team meeting they were you know this person is in elementary school and they were like can we just get the whole team together i just i have some things i need to discuss about like you know just like incredible whole whole different ball game because it cuts through the shame and it cuts through the belief that i can't even go there because it's not the right thing to do and it's this must mean something terrible about me. And then it's like, oh, it doesn't.

Oh, there's a framework for this. In that case, then I have a number of suggestions and it's, it's just feel like heartwarming. Yeah. It's so interesting when you're talking. Cause like one thing I learned luckily early in my career from a mentor, which just keeps coming up is true over and over again is like, if the adults are not willing to have willing to be in the conversation about anything that kids are experiencing, then the kids are developing a story without our input or influence. So we, we shouldn't be telling them who they are or like, whenever I talk about autism with parents and kids, I will say I have developed a very, very thoughtful and careful opinion. So I gathered a ton of information and I came up with a very thoughtful opinion that I want to offer you.

You will now decide if you're going to agree with my opinion, if it resonates and makes sense to you, whether you're going to get more information and get multiple opinions or whether you're going to reject my opinion, that is totally up to you. So all that's happened so far is that I have gathered information, and I am offering you a thoughtful opinion. That's all that's happened. Now you will take it from there. So first of all, you're empowering people to decide, am I going to endorse that or not? Um, I do believe that a couple of things that I feel really firm about, I guess, or maybe firm's not passionate about one is that in identity, identity formation happens throughout childhood.

And I do believe what we know from human development and what we know from doing this work, for decades, you and I now is that there is a certain point where your identity is fairly, you can always change your identity, but it's, it's pretty far along evolved by like 18. So if you're getting new information, then that people kind of knew all along, that feels to me like a disservice because it feels to me like if you hit it for this long, obviously it was bad. Otherwise, why wouldn't you have told me that my hair is brown? If everybody knew that my hair was brown, and that's not a problem. It feels to me, it's just like a, it's a characteristic of who you are. Why would we hide it from you?

And then it, if you can, if you can learn it, I think in my head by nine or 10, you're kind of at the beginning of a pretty important number of years of identity formation. And then you are empowered to decide how important is that going to be? And if you're in what way, are you going to incorporate that in? And there's no right or wrong way. It could be a very insignificant part of who you are, according to you, or it could be the front and center, really important part of who you are, anything in between. But I, you, you sort of steal that choice if you keep it from them until later. And then it's really hard to backpedal out of. It's not bad news.

If it weren't bad news, then why weren't, why were we not talking about it? So I do feel like timing is important. Now, if we didn't know, before 17 or 18, then we did, you know, then we didn't know it. And now we're going to do that work to integrate it. And I still experience pretty remarkable relief from people when they learned this about themselves at those older ages. So I feel really strongly that if we know it, we should share it around, you know, by nine or 10, then I feel like the clock is ticking. And I also feel really strongly that if, if we're not as adults, part of the conversation, then they're developing their own story and understanding without our influence. And that doesn't usually go as well.

I think those are really important points. Also, yeah. So powerful. Like if we, as adults, have sat on it, right, then how are we to also say out of the other side of our mouths? Oh, but this isn't bad news. Right. I will say though, there, there have been a couple of times in my practice where parents really, we have, and they have been, we're doing so such diligent work, right. But, but for whatever reason, it has been a big one for parents to integrate and, and maybe, you know, even despite gentle urging from team members, right. It really has been hard for parents to have that conversation when, when, when we're gearing up to have a conversation like this in my practice.

Sometimes I will do like a little bit of like a, not a phone tree, a decision tree or just a flow chart for parents. Right. Who, who might be like, okay, but then what are we going to do if they have X, Y, Z response? And then it's like, and then if they have X, Y, Z response, we'll say this, but they might not. So we're not going to assume. And I remember there was a flow chart we worked really hard on to these, there were such wonderful parents and they, they were worried about how this was going to go. And so because of that, the information had been sat on for some time. And as is often the case, the, the child received this information quite neutrally.

So, they didn't end up asking, why didn't you tell me sooner? But we were ready for that question. And the parents were prepared to be so accountable and say, we needed some time to learn what this is. And we initially had misinformation and we thought it might be bad news. And then it took us some time to get the correct information that it isn't. And we didn't want to bring it to you until we had the correct information. And I thought, well, I'm going to actually a really nice way to own what genuinely had happened there without, without it feeling like double talk to the kid. Although I don't know if the kid even to this day ever got that message because it certainly didn't need to come up in the conversation.

Yeah. Yeah. I think, you know, you and I are both parents, and I think that one of the hardest things to do is to have a healthy enough family dynamic where members of the family can have very different emotions about the same thing, without feeling like you have to add a loyalty or emotionally aligned, like for, you know, and you could think about this with everything. Like it's easy when it's like horror movies, right? Like some family members like horror movies, some don't. So we just pick a movie that we all like, but like, then there's more sensitive topics. Like what if there's a relative that some people love and some people find toxic, is it okay? Could there be enough room in this family for us to have varying emotions about the same really important thing?

Like a relative or an identity. And this, I mean, this could come up with lots of different identity, um, explorations, but like, I, I think I'm grateful that I was, um, working so deeply in the world of family therapy for the first 10 years of becoming a mom, because I, I heard myself say so many times, can this family create enough room that we could have very different emotions about the same powerful experience or the same powerful thing? Um, could, could we imagine getting there? Then I had to go home and live that. And it's a lot easier when you're in the therapist chair to help guide people toward that than to come home and be in a situation where we have passionately different emotions about a very important part of life.

And how do you create the room for that? And so I think that I have heard, I mean, I've, I've watched some pretty incredible parents in action. Um, parents of, um, beautiful autistic people and, and I've learned a lot from them. And I remember as you were just talking, I remembered one mom saying, um, there are so many things about the world that are so deeply stressful for you. And I love you so much. And I watch you feel stressed by those things. And when I heard this information about autism, what it meant to me at the time was that you would always struggle like that. And I could think I was just grappling with like what it meant that you weren't going to grow out of some sensory difficulties, or you weren't going to grow out of some social difficulties.

But now I just know so much more about what that actually means. So it was sort of like, it, it was very hard news for me to hear because I love you so much. And I watch how stressful things are, but, um, to the kid, it has such a different meaning. It's like, sort of like saying the water's wet. Yes. It's like, well, yes, I knew this stuff. I might've not had a word for it, but I've known this all along. And I, and I wasn't really expecting that things were going to get remarkably different. And so it's just very powerfully different emotions about the same really important thing. And so it's just, you have to just create room for that to be. Yeah.

And, you know, I think we're describing often the experience of like allistic or non-autistic parents. Yeah. Steven, this information, right. I also have worked with families, um, you know, with autistic parents where it, um, that it can be a journey too, but I do find it's a little bit less of one, especially if parents have already integrated autism into their identity, right. Sort of just like, ah, yep, we knew that, but welcome. Um, so I, so I just sort of want to name that, that this is a little bit assuming, right. That, that there are allistic parents, which is not always the case, but, um, I, oh, where was I going to say that? Oh, shoot. Um, well, while you're thinking of that, I'll go ahead. I got it. Yeah.

I think it can also be, um, one of the really, one of the reasons I think it's really important to, um, you know, let someone know this information if, if we have it, um, is that then it, if, and just as you said, right, autism may or may not end up feeling to someone like a major part of their identity. However, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, it does, then there is really vibrant autistic community to be found. And, and you don't necessarily think to point yourself toward that, right. If, if you don't have this information, but I think sometimes it can be tricky for allistic parents, you know, cause you know, for that, for that mom, I wouldn't, I have no idea.

I've never met this family, but I wonder if some of what was going on was, oh, I thought you would grow into a nervous system that was more similar. Yeah. Right. Whereas maybe for the kid, it's like, I have known for so long now that I'm not going to grow into a nervous system, more similar to yours. And, oh, you know what though? It turns out that there is, there is a whole wonderful subset of the population who does have a nervous system, more, more similar to me. And, and so there's, you know, a poignancy to that sometimes too. Right. Yeah. And I think that there's so much hope in that too, because like, honestly, once you get out of school, you could create a life that's so much easier for your various preferences and needs.

Like, for example, when we're having a conversation about goals, it's like, if somebody finds the smells and the noise and the social demand of the cafeteria to be too much, I see no purpose in any effort toward making them increase their capacity to tolerate that. Cause you can live. Yeah. Fully actualized content adult life and never eat in a room that's noisy and smelly, and with social demands like you don't have to go to restaurants no, and you can pick restaurants that are that have an outdoor cafe that is quieter or lovelier; you can go to restaurants at four o'clock when they're not as busy-it's just there is no reason for it. So, like,

you're the all the demands of public school especially um are require us to be able to tolerate a certain way of coexisting and being that you can create a vocation, and social, and recreational, and home, and family, and relationship world that that really shifts the demand on that; and so yes this is um this is information about what has been the case, is the case, and will be the case, and our options now to create a life um that that is so meaningful and increased comfort, like comfortable-you know, yeah, yeah, no it's so true, like the I sort of think about any anytime we're trying to build a human experience in bulk right; so any anytime we're just we're dealing.

With a lot of people at once, those situations are our society seems to have the hardest time building in a neurodiversity-affirming way, you know, and I think it's because it just collapses to the majority. And I, you know, right now, at least, the idea is that there probably are more holistic folks than autistic folks in the world, um. But yeah, I think public school is a really good example of that. It's like, um, you know, there are elements of crowd control to it, um, you know, there are elements of, really needing to focus on what's going to you know get the many sort of through a set of hurdles right with with limited friction and that kind.

of situation will almost always be like positive for like fluorescent lights because those are cheaper in bulk right they'll be positive for what if everyone just ate in a huge room because that's easier to supervise and those are the situations that are often hardest for um you know non-holistic nervous systems but yeah the beauty here is that once you get out of situations that sort of need to be created in bulk right you know you're you're probably still going to need to deal with an airport many of the same problems right you're you know there are certain things like the dmv you might have the same problems with that but life can become so much more individualized once you're out of public school right right and the frequency that you would have more control over putting yourself in those situations they would be you could prepare for them and it wouldn't be every day how you get would not be every day you would have to be in a

compulsory right right yeah um i have a thought that you made me think of related to this which is that i've sometimes heard myself say to parents um when they're surprised when i come back with i you know that i think this is autism i sometimes think incredibly well matched parents for an autistic child are terrible Diagnostic partners for me, how so? What do you mean because they just have no agenda for who their child they didn't need a ballerina or a football player or like they had no agenda for who their child needed to be or what their interests were. They completely fluidly just learned what worked for their child and what didn't, and we're happy to learn and go in those directions and intuitively adapt.

Like well, we just don't do big family parties and yeah, other things. And you know it's just like so when I ask questions about like various things being problematic they don't necessarily see those things as problems, they are characteristics. And features, but they fluidly adapted and intuited what their child would need, and so much so that they actually know; it's like um, it's not, it's definitely not enabling or over-accommodating; it really is just a beautiful way of intuiting what was going on. And I think that's what I'm going to work with; you create a flow. Um, I write a list every morning, of course, I write a list every morning, otherwise my child would not do their daily personal hygiene routine well, so they need a list.

Well, yes, but I never thought of that as a problem because and so it's just all these little things that are so auto-automatic now; so when you ask questions About likes uniquenesses in various ways or struggles in various ways, um, I think it's just a little bit of a problem, I think it's just a that they're not really viewing those things as problematic and so it's just so interesting how, um, I have found that a helpful thing to say to parents sometimes like, I think that you are perfectly matched parents for this person this human and, um, and yet didn't you weren't the one raising your hand asking for some help or information because of how good how well matched you are, I don't know if that makes sense but that makes total sense to me and you know and then it also makes me think about You know, you've heard me on my soapbox before about diagnostics, yeah, the way that we as psychologists are asked to ask those questions.

Yeah, does House that stuff I think still within the idea of a problem right? So, so I think as the evaluator, we're also in a tricky position because the questions are saying, 'You know, is this person having a problem such that you need to write them down, right?' And so I think that's a or is this person having a problem such that they you know really have been focused on all the characters in Zelda for years, you know. Whereas, that you know I think a more neurodiversity affirming stance would be Say you know, maybe those beautifully intuitive parents are on the right track that yeah this isn't a problem right though it is a difference and it's an important difference for this person to be aware of right so that this kid themselves is not surprised that they they might need to sort of categorize what was going on in their home and find a way to recreate that other places right.

But I, I also wish that we could you know I hope that we're moving in the direction of not pathologizing autism as much as the diagnostic criteria currently do, and you know I think that you know evaluators might be more often invited just To be like list or no list this is neutral right? Like you know can are they doing their own executive functioning on their own or are they are you being more of an external processor, either way is fine just which one is it you know because it is a really interesting question whether it's a problem or not right, yeah and I think it's um I mean at the core I think that like you know the sort of like when you have a job you think about what is your why so like my why for doing this work is that I want people to be able to have whatever kind of life they want to have and reach their full potential and I think without

without methods of identifying That someone has autism or is autistic, and without methods for connecting them to really good people that are going to help them, you know, learn how to navigate a world that wasn't designed by and for them. Um, then we're doing, we're leaving them alone with that, and so a big part of the problem, you and I know, is not autism; it's that the world is designed by allistic people. But identifying those people, bringing them together, connecting them with resources and coping skills, because it's like, you know, if they want to travel then I feel like we're obligated to make sure that they know all the sensory and executive functioning and social potential struggles that it could be like to travel um you know with autism and you know and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and you know same thing with you know so there you know there's lots of other things so like

for me it's just like who do you want to be and what do you want to do and then that's my goal you know i don't i really don't want you to have to eat lunch in a cafeteria with noisy people but i do want you to go if if you want to go to restaurants and you want to be friends with people who go to restaurants then i want to figure out what your coping strategies are To be there, yeah, I think that's an amazing approach, yeah, that makes a lot of sense, so you could be whoever you want to be and go wherever you want to be, and you can be whoever you want to be and you can be whoever you want to go. You deserve that, yeah, right, yeah.

So I think we're landing on you know, you deserve the keys to the castle, so you deserve to know. You certainly you should know as much as anyone else in the world does about your particular brain, yeah, right. So if we have information, we have an obligation to give it and then also what we're doing with that information is being like, okay, so now we know more about your brain, you tell. Me, or you know, over the course of time, right? Let's help you figure out what kind of life you want and then we're going to figure out you know how to what often can you know. And also, I'm an holistic person, you're also going to go to autistic community for this, right?

Just sort of figure out yeah, okay there there's autism and then there's also a desire to go to restaurants, like how do we navigate that? What do we advocate for and also what do we accommodate for, right? Yeah, cool. All right, moral of the story don't be afraid to close uh autism information to the children, yeah, that's right because we need to be part of the conversation. yeah that's right and it usually goes neutrally to positively yeah that's been my experience also sometimes kids are just like okay and those are those are sometimes the funniest moments too it's like oh yeah i know we've prepared and thought and and you know all this right and then it's like okay yeah and then what's for dinner right

yeah no that is for sure that has been my experience yeah but all of that work leading up to that benefited the other people who did that work so much totally it was not never a waste yeah a lot of times again it's just getting the holistic folks in a place where they they have all the information They're holding it in an affirming way, yeah, yeah, yeah. Great conversation, yeah. Thanks, Joelle. Awesome, thanks, Jillian. Thanks, everybody. Yeah, we'll chat with you next time soon. All right. Thank you for listening to another episode of Stance of Curiosity. Stance of Curiosity is an unscripted conversation between Jillian Boudreau and Joelle van Lint, while both are licensed psychologists. This podcast is provided for informational and educational purposes only. The content presented should not be considered a substitute for professional psychological, medical or mental health advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Listeners Should always consult with a professional or mental health advisor before making any decisions about the content of this podcast, qualified mental health professional whenever needed for specific concerns or questions related to their personal situation; stance of curiosity is produced by Jillian Boudreau and Joelle van Lint, our cover art is by Aaron Lanute, and our music is upbeat indie folk by Twin Music. See you next time.