Common mistakes to avoid and interpersonal tweaks to try when fostering connection with stressed kids

Gillian and Joelle chat about frequent suggestions that they make to school teams to support students who are strugging to cope effectively.  They talk about the specific ways that we can approach a stressed person to help assure their needs will be met, validate their emotions, and move forward together successfully.  The strategy of replacing “You need…” with “I need…” along with other ideas helps align with the child against the problem, invite them to an alternate approach, and co-regulate.  In the stampede of the public school pace, school professionals are working to intentionally set their own personal pace and adjust the pace of an interaction to the needs of the students in that moment rather than the fast paced schedule.  It turns out that slowing down is ultimately faster and more efficient, when we need good connection to move forward.  Listen to the whole episode for these and more go-to approaches!! 

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Gillian: https://www.instagram.com/clearconnectionpsychology/

Joelle: https://www.instagram.com/joelle.vanlent/

Transcript

Gillian Boudreau: Welcome to another episode of stance, of curiosity. Hi! Joelle!

Joelle van Lent: Hi Gillian.

Gillian Boudreau: We're glad to be here with you today as always. And today we thought we would dive in with some common do's and don'ts in schools that we find ourselves bringing to the school consultation space.

Joelle van Lent: Yeah, absolutely. We both have things. I affectionately refer to these as common mistakes of well-intentioned, lovely school professionals. Meaning trying to normalize and humanize the fact that these are things that happen all the time, and then maybe share a little bit of the thinking about why you and I would want people to do something differently, or think a little bit differently.

Gillian Boudreau: Yeah, that's right. You know. And as we get further into this, podcast. Like.

you know, I people who listen to this will begin to recognize that it's pretty much always about. You know, relational strategies, right? Or, you know, kind of human to human strategies. And sometimes, as a you know, as a psychologist working in the realm of schools, I have to remind myself I can feel a little bad. I'm like none of these are really going to be about

specifically how to teach anyone anything but - People sort of know that. I think folks know that we're here to provide a different thing. But it's an interesting thing to be a psychologist who works so closely with schools right? Because I often feel like I should have more to bring to the table about just literally teaching, and I have almost nothing to bring to the table about that, but I do - 

Joelle van Lent: I know.

Gillian Boudreau: But I do have a lot of just general ways to be with people, so that things will go better, and then you'll have a chance to teach more, but it's I don't know. It's funny.

Joelle van Lent: Yeah, absolutely. And I think people as we go through some of these we are assuming that most people are gonna think, Oh, I do that.

Gillian Boudreau: Yes.

Joelle van Lent: Thing that we say not to do. Maybe they do that because we see it and talk about it all the time.

Gillian Boudreau: Right.

Joelle van Lent: So no worries. If we're talking about something that you do as on the don't list, that's because it's so common. And then why and when would we want you to think differently?

Gillian Boudreau: And you know what I want to add to that the ones that I specifically use a lot and that I'm going to share today I don't end up recommending anything to someone else, have felt myself do the. I felt myself make, the well-intentioned mistake, and I and I have like seen for myself the impact of that. So you know, when I was working full time in the schools. I had the privilege of supervising, and, you know, sort of creating the plans for a bunch of really really talented behavior interventionists. And so my job was, you know, sort of to give my best guess as far as like, okay, let's try this with this kid. I think this will probably work with this kid. But it almost wasn't it, you know, because staffing challenges or staffing challenges, I was often in the position of subbing for one of those folks for the day, right? Or sort of like doing the plan that I had written. And I found those days, you know, very stressful. Procedurally, as far as just clearing everything else I was supposed to do that day, but always worth it, because only then would I see like, oh, here's what any reasonable person would say in this moment, and I'm noticing that that like did not land right? Or I'm a well-intentioned person. Here's what I reflexively did to actualize the plan in this way. Oh, and I now see the hole in that right? So all of these don'ts. I only know that they're don'ts because I have done them and didn't work out super well.  So a lot of my stuff tends to be around languaging because I think we can make small language tweaks to really get through the day way easier, especially with our more sensitized kids. So my 1st don't is pretty simple. It's just don't use “you need” language, so you need to sit down. You need to be quiet. You need a break. I have said those things. I have seen countless educators say those things, and then I have also often seen an already struggling kid react or dig their heels in or shout back. You don't know what I need. And so the “do” I would offer on that one is to really recognize from sort of a radically honest perspective where the need really lies right, because, you know, if a kid is like swearing and throwing pencils all over a classroom. That behavior does need to stop.n So the need probably doesn't lie within the body of the person doing that behavior because they wouldn't be doing that if it wasn’t working for them in some way. It's to like, get a big feeling out, or to feel powerful, or whatever it is. So even just making a tweak to, I need language itself super simple, but it it can really cut through the friction and the static just to be like I need quiet, or I need sitting down, or I'm noticing, you know. I'm wondering if you could.

Joelle van Lent: That’s great

Gillian Boudreau: Tiny tweak, but I've I've noticed it to really help.

Joelle van Lent: Yeah, I think that this connects to an idea that I talk about all the time, which is that when people are either in a temporary stress state. So you have someone who's tipped like their baseline is pretty reasonably regulated. But they are stressed in this moment. And people who are chronically stressed typically regress to a toddler like nplace around self orientation. So they are not a selfish person, but move to a self oriented state, because when you're stressed, what your body does or your brain what your brain does is it shifts attention to the immediate moment. And you - because that is adaptive, right? Like. If I were driving to an appointment, and I got a flat tire, and the appointment was really important. I would only be thinking about me and my problem, and if a friend texted me about like an issue with their kid, I would be like Nope, not right now, and I everybody driving by. I would be wondering why they weren't stopping to help me. Because the only thing I could pay attention to right now is me this moment in my problem. So we become self oriented. So when someone is doing a behavior that is inspired by stress or an unmet need for connection attention. Either way, you're kind of in a toddler like place, regardless of how old you actually are. So when “you say you need to” that immediately triggers, the sense of you don't care about me. You just care about everybody else, or you're not understanding that I have a big unmet need, or that I am stressed. So when you say It looks like you might need. I wonder if you might need you know, or I need you know, to teach the class I need to move us forward to, you know. Line up for bus. How can I help you? Right? So either your strategy of like I need. This is what? What I'm needing to do. How can we meet both of our needs? You’re stating what to you seems obvious. But when you're stressed you also lose perspective taking ability. So you're not noticing what? Why, the teacher is giving you directions. Why, the why the adult is trying to get you to do something so very clearly, obviously with with flat, neutral tone or curious tone, I need to move on to teach the class. What do you need? How can I help you, or I wonder if you need my support. I wonder if you need to take a break? I wonder if you need? You know, whatever that might be. It's just stating it in a curious way. And what you’re asking about is the unmet. Need not the behavior change.

Gillian Boudreau: Oh, yes, it's also an example of stepping over the behavior which is from season one go-to strategies

Joelle van Lent: That's right.

Gillian Boudreau: Yes, you know, as you're okay. I really love when we can use an adult example right to help understand what's going on with kids, because we're all just navigating basically the same playbook of our human psyches. So in that example that you gave right, so you're trying to get to a really important appointment. And you're on the side of the road because your car is broken down. It. It also makes me think of yeah, when somebody is in that tunnel vision, self-focused state, when they are experiencing themselves in some kind of emergency. Which we have to trust. Kids are kids must be experiencing if they are acting out right. And some of the ways that we see right? Even if we can't from the outside, imagine what the emergency could be. Kids don't act that way unless they're experiencing a type of emergency. Right? So if we go back to the Kid like swearing and throwing the pencils they would not be doing that if they didn't feel like they were in the midst of some kind of emergency.  And then coming over and layering on a a new need, right? Suggesting that. Oh, well, now, you need to do this, they might start to to short circuit because it's like I am not available for for a new emergency right now, right or I, I am not able to add in another urgent thing right now.

Joelle van Lent: Because I am already dealing with

Gillian Boudreau: Something very urgent, which is that I'm in the midst of an emergency. That means I have to swear and throw the pencils. So you know, if I even think of let's say you know, like, if a - maybe they needed to like plow the road or something right. You're in the same situation. You're on the side of the road. You're really focused on your own need, which is to get going. Imagine if somebody had come and said, Hey, lady, like you need to move your car. You know, you probably would have freaked out and been like, Oh, do I do? I need to move my car? Well, guess what? For one I can't, and for 2 shut your mouth. I'm trying to figure this out myself, you know where, even in the adult example, if that person had said, I can see you're really in a pickle. I need to plow this road and I'm not going to be able to do it. If your car's here. How can we figure this out together? Right? I am.

Joelle van Lent: Gotcha.

Gillian Boudreau: You would respond differently. As a very wise adult.

Joelle van Lent: Yeah, looks like you need help with a tire change. I need to plow the road. Let's sort this out together. Now we're in it together, facing the problem together, which reduces the panic because it's like rather than adding urgency. We're on the same side. The other thing is like, what if you call someone, and they point out that you should have learned how to change a tire.

Gillian Boudreau: Oh, my God!

Joelle van Lent: Not helpful at that moment, because not going to be able to learn to change the tire. Now, while I am urgently need the tire change. So that is tempting, though right? Like a lot of parental figures or family members might point out when you call. I have a flat tire, and I don't know how to change. It might be so tempted to point out, you know, would have been great for you to learn how to do that all the times that was suggested. And so not helpful. So so the Kid is throwing pencils and upset, and you come over and say you need to do your math. It's kind of like you should have learned how to change a tire. Right? That's just not. This is not the time or place to bring up these like longer term goals or needs, or I things that would have been a good idea prior to now.

Gillian Boudreau: Yes, that makes a lot of sense. Right? Yeah. It also goes into even just like the you know, the family therapy ideas about like fighting fair. You try to stay on the problem at hand right. Try not to bring in like, you know. You try not to bring in things that the person did wrong outside of the current conflict. And and I think that if if the current issue is that someone is swearing and throwing pencils, bringing in even the idea of math to that person, probably to that kid probably doesn't feel like fighting fair. It's like, what do you? Why are we layering on math right now? Right? Even if to the well-meaning educator it seems very linear, which is not all you know you're doing a thing you're not supposed to be doing. Let me remind you of the thing you are supposed to be doing, which, if you would just do, it, would solve 2 problems. Then you would be learning, and you wouldn't be disrupting the class.

Joelle van Lent: Right. And if your limbic system or amygdala is in charge, and then somebody says, late lays another demand on you, you're going to your instinct before you even think is to get big, more emotional, because obviously they're not getting it.

Gillian Boudreau: Yes, you have to dig in because they you must not be being believed. If the other person cannot see what an emergency this is.

Joelle van Lent: Right. And you know what a lot of times school professionals are responsible for getting a group of people, a group of students through a set of tasks or routines on time for the next thing so so understandable that you might feel your own sense of urgency. And and I think a lot of students that I work with that are anxious or neurodivergent, or both. We talk about that they really don't like to be rushed. And school feels like a lot of people rushing them, and I think if you could tend to your own urgency and shift the language you probably would move things through more quickly.

Gillian Boudreau: Yeah, I think this is the great irony. And this is probably a lot of us behind my do's and don'ts. If I think about the second one I'm about to offer, too, like we know that educators are working in a stampede. When I was working full time in schools. I've never felt so rushed in my entire life, and I lived in New York City for almost 10 years.

That is very real. And then also it can be so easy to get into negative cycles, because oftentimes the the 1st thing any reasonable person would do in response to urgency, which is, try to speed the situation up is the very thing that's going to, especially for neurodivergent kids or kids who've experienced trauma or anybody with a more highly sensitized nervous system that's actually going to slow things down. So we have to do the counterintuitive thing and temporarily pause and really attune with and align with the stuckness of the kid in front of us

find some way to step out of the schedule and step out of the rush even just for like a few sentences right? So that we can actually get like some clear communication going. And then the situation can move forward. So my, my! Another don't I have  is don't rush to fix right? So if a kid comes to you with a problem right? Any reasonable, well-meaning person right would be like, Oh, no problem. We can solve that. You need a pencil. Here's a pencil. You need a this. Here's a this you are concerned about that. Don't worry. Let's get to that later. Keep it moving right? Like, there's there's such a desire to keep it moving that can work for many kids in public schools, right? Like, okay, like, we get them in a cadence, they're keeping it moving great. But there will be certain kids in each classroom for whom a keep it moving approach will actually slow things down because they will feel rushed, they will feel unseen. They will need to kind of escalate where they're at until you get it. So instead of kind of jumping to fix. Sometimes I call that well-meaning minimization, right? Like, okay, don't worry, honey. We'll deal with that later. Here you go. We want to practice radical empathy. Which basically means, but like believing a kid immediately and erring on the side of trying attunement first, right? And so it might make a person sound a little bit ridiculous. But any problem that any kid brings to you, especially if you know that this is a kid with a more highly sensitized nervous system. The 1st thing you do is repeat the problem back to them and be like, Oh, gosh! You know or like, Oh, wow! So, even if it's the last pencil like my pencil broke right, most people would be like that. That's fine. Here's another pencil. But if we're trying this radical empathy approach. We recognize that there's no negative side effect to 1st being like you broke your pencil. Oh, that can be really frustrating. Now, if it's a kid who was going to be able to tolerate you, just giving them a new pencil. There's no downside, except they might think you're a little silly. They might be like, Yeah, I'm okay. Can I have another pencil? But by doing that you prevent a really high percentage of classroom meltdowns. Because if it was a kid who can't be rushed, or if it's a kid who's already walking through the world expecting not to be believed right, you hand them a pencil, and they're going to start to shoot to the moon. But instead, if you say, Oh, you did!

Oh, my gosh! That's a bummer event that gives them a chance to be like. I know the way they manufacture pencils. These days are just terrible. And frankly, this is an issue for me a lot, and I find it very frustrating, right? And then you can feel like it is super frustrating honestly like I feel the same way sometimes about even the ways that cars are manufactured. I feel like I'm always having to bring my car in, and it's very upsetting and frustrating even just that right then the same kid who might have gone from 0 to 60 if you had the audacity to just give them a new pencil when there's broke right? Just a few volleys of that  will set a kid up, then to be able to receive a pencil and move on.

Joelle van Lent: yeah. And it, there's 2 things. I say, all the time that you're that that second do and don't reminds me of the 1st is in the stampede of a public school everything and anything that you can do to set a personal pace. That is intentional and methodical, and and the pace that you think is gonna work for you and your your, you know role in the school and your tasks.

Because if you don't set that pace before you walk into the building and then reset it a couple of times, you will get swept up into the pace of what's around you. So personal pace, right? And and then, second, is the other thing that you're that you're letting determine your pace is the humans in front of you. So I say, all the time set the pace according to the humans in front of you. So we're having a a meltdown about getting our winter gear on. And yet it's you know, we gotta get you know, out to recess, or we gotta get to lunch, because in some schools in Vermont they put snow pants on before they go to a noisy cafeteria which is already sensory overloaded, eat lunch in sweatpants and then go outside, which sounds very practical, because it's impossible to get all of that on. In the in this little tiny span of time, between lunch and recess. But for a lot of people that doesn't work, because now you're hot it's noisy, it's smelly. And you're trying to socialize. Anyway.

Gillian Boudreau: Every time you move you swish! Swish, anyway. Yes.

Joelle van Lent: Anyway, that's a tangent. But I know that happens. So if if you're if the people in front of you are not are not matching the stampede or the pace of the schedule. If you shift your pace to the humans that are in front of you, things will go much better, and you know Gillian and I totally try, you know. Believe that that will actually make things be closer to on schedule than rushing. Yes.

Gillian Boudreau: Promise you it will promise so it sounds so counterintuitive. I do. I do not have time to have a whole conversation with every child who approaches me about a minor concern. And the thing is, though, right, that again, for a kid who doesn't need it, it's just going to be one overly empathetic sentence from you, and they're going to kind of squint at you and be on your way. But the small percentage of the time that if you didn't do that, it was now going to be a 20 min problem. You're gonna you're going to save yourself from that.

Joelle van Lent: Right, because, like, when you were saying that you're gonna align with the frustration toward the broken pencils, and how they're not made well and give your own car example. I did feel myself saying, Well, that's a lot. Would a teacher really have time for that? So even I'm getting co-opted into this idea of like. We don't have time for this, but the thing is.

it would take the same amount of time to say you're always breaking pencils. You need to be more responsible with your materials. You know where the new pencils are. You need to solve that problem. That actually is the same amount of time as oh, that's so frustrating that you broke your pencil. I also don't like when things are poorly made. You're aligning your if you're together against the problem. Again.

Gillian Boudreau: Yep, yeah. And then you know what? I don't know if we've talked about like the use of visuals in classrooms, and how obsessedI think we both are with that. But one like so universal design for learning is a lovely approach, that my my good friend Aaron Lanou is an expert on, and teaches me about and presents with me about and he, you know he's helped me understand that the more we can get the classroom routines up on the wall right? And you know, in, you know, creative ways. But so there's just like, you know, a big placard right where you know pencils here and then written, you know. Don't forget. Here's the you know. You take it out, you sharpen it over there. You do the thing. We can sort of let the visuals, I think, take the time for that kind of stuff. So that then, once a problem arises, we do have the time and the space to focus on empathizing right? So we keep everybody's nervous system regulated, and we might even then be able to just kind of briefly point. You know, when the kids like, yeah, like, once, you've kind of if it was a kid who engaged with this and appreciated this response. So maybe you've done 2 or 3 sentences with them. Now, you're on the same side of the problem. And then you can just be like, okay. So you know what to do. Over on the wall. And that part is taken care of for you.

Joelle van Lent: Right. And I think a lot of elementary first, st second grade classrooms are very visually guided, and I think that we then somehow have a cultural assumption that beyond a certain grade of elementary, everybody's verbal and it. And can all learn something once and remember it like where everything in the room is, or what the routines are, and so when we visual, when we keep those visual labeling where things are in the classroom, and also putting the routine up, visually listing the materials that you're going to need when we do that, I'm going to say, especially in middle school. But why wouldn't you do it all the way through high school, because you're probably needing to do these things only once or twice, and then you keep putting the same visuals up throughout the school year. It really shouldn't be a ton of extra prep. It's like, this is the, you know, we're transitioning. So I'm putting my transition

slide up, or whatever it is, as kids get older. So that's the thing that I would say is, keep keep it visual all the way up through because stressed people don't process auditory information and stressed people have a hard time accessing things they know from their long term memory, like where we keep pencils or graph paper, or whatever it might be.

Gillian Boudreau: They sure do if I am. If I'm on like a stressful phone call, or if something has happened and I need to call like insurance person, maybe about a car or whatever that's definitely going to be the time where I will absolutely forget where I have squirreled away any important document I've ever had.

Joelle van Lent: In my life.

Gillian Boudreau: Right, even though. You know, in some part of my brain, when I'm calm, I know that I also wanted to speak particularly to the importance of visuals in middle school and early high school. Because, you know, especially when I work with stressed families who are like, I have this middle schooler. I know they are very smart, so frankly, I feel quite offended, and I have no other conclusion to draw than they're just messing with me when I look them in the eye, and I tell them how the toilet works. And then they still break the toilet right, or they promise me that they're not going to absent mindedly, like throw away a nondisposable spoon with their yogurt cup. But yet I just watch them do it again and again for those listeners who might have been pregnant before. And, Joelle, I know you and I have both been pregnant. There's so we've all heard of pregnancy brain right, which is like the fogginess that pregnant people often get, and that is actually related to this is kind of nerdy brainy that's due to something called synaptic pruning. Which is basically when a big change is about to occur. So the brain goes in and it actually takes out a bunch of neuronal connections that may not be needed anymore to make room for a big burst of brain connections in a new direction. So in particular, like once the baby's born right. The the person who's carried the baby has a massive burst in the brain of like, you know, intuition and ability to like decode every tiny cry and stuff that you just needed to make room for. And middle school is actually very similar. Middle and early high School. Those brains also demonstrate synaptic pruning, because the brain is getting rid of hopefully, mostly stuff we don't need, but it can also feel like some stuff we did need from the brilliance of when a person was 10, to get ready for this brand new burst right of like new types of ethics and morality and new types of critical thinking. And you know the things that are going to come in in later high school and college to, you know, to jump people into their like super wise adult mode so middle schoolers essentially have. Like, we could think of it as pregnancy brain. We could think of it as a really - to some degree a reduction in the ability to kind of hold procedures in mind compared even to like 4th or 5th grade. And and so it yeah, that's the worst time to to let go of the scaffolding.

Joelle van Lent: Yeah, there's a great book on this brainstorm by Dan Siegel, which, if people really want to nerd out on it, it's great. But I'm thinking, like, when I was pregnant I would put a sticky note on the steering wheel that said, get gas. Because it's pretty likely that I would have forgotten to do that had I not written it down, even though there might even be like a gas light fuel light on, or whatever so same thing. These middle schoolers that are having this incredible neurological burst and shift and hormones, and all of this visual guides are just so helpful. They reduce the number of times that you have to repeat directions. So they reduce the likelihood that you'll end up feeling like you're being naggy.

Gillian Boudreau: And also the likelihood that they will react out of shame right? Because, no matter how nicely you say it, one does start to feel like kind of a jerk if you, if one has needed the same reminder a million times right? So anything we can do just to take that out of like the personal relationship, and get that in like a a less charged 3rd space like on the wall, is really helpful.

Joelle van Lent: I had another thought. In addition, I'm gonna back. Go circle back now.

We were talking about the pacing, and you were talking about the instead of you need saying I need so the other thing that I was thinking about when you were giving your pencil example is

the idea of like of like don't demand that the student make a statement of accountability.

Gillian Boudreau: Yes.

Joelle van Lent: As step one or 2 before you move through and process and solve a problem. I think in our culture we are very stuck on the 1st step is that the person admits wrongdoing.

Gillian Boudreau: Own The behavior I've seen this in countless think sheets.

Joelle van Lent: Right? And then we move through a process of like, what was the impact of the behavior? What did they need? What could have worked better. How do we repair? The problem is, if acknowledging wrongdoing is number one or 2, that's not gonna work for most people, because it is the most sophisticated skill. And you have to learn all of the steps after it. You have to understand, 1st of all, once, I admit wrongdoing. What's going to happen, especially if you've had caregiver related trauma or inconsistency in caregiving, or you have a low self concept, or you don't feel a solid sense of belonging psychological safety. I can make a mistake here and still be held in group. So unless you are talking to someone who is

fully self confident, and they know I'm a good person who made a mistake, trusts adults, people, and authority completely, and feels it a sense of psychological safety where I can screw up and remain held in group here. Unless you're talking to someone who you can check all 3 boxes.

Talking to a child who's achieved enlightenment.

Joelle van Lent: Exactly, then acknowledging wrongdoing feels way too risky. So the problem is, you you want to lead a child many times through we have a problem that we need to solve together. When we we look at the problem together, I'm predictably going to move through these steps where you're going to be safe held in group. You're going to learn how you could have gotten that need bet in a more effective way that could have worked for you and others. And then we're going to get back on routine. So once you move through that repeatedly, then it gets more likely that you could admit wrongdoing. But when we require that as step one, we get in this standoff, which is highly ineffective. So we do need to just skip that step. So it would be like Gillian. I want to talk to you about that. You were throwing pencils earlier, and you might say I did not throw pencils, and I might have seen you throw the pencil, and you might have known that I saw you throw the pencil. But you were going to do a very unsophisticated thing right now where you're going to just deny that you did it. And I'm gonna keep getting you trying to get you to admit that you did it, because that admitting wrongdoing in my mind is Step one. So now we're in a standoff. So instead, if I say, I want to talk to you about that. You threw pencils before I didn't. Okay, I wanted to talk to you about what would work better when you're feeling frustrated. I wasn't frustrated. Okay. I wanted to talk to you about the options for people in our classroom when things aren't going well. Just humor me. Maybe things were going well for you earlier, but I wanted to give you some information about what you could do here if things weren't going well. And so you. So you have to find a way for them to move through steps 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and then you can circle back later, maybe, and say so. What I was talking about earlier is, instead of throwing pencils, you could do those things that I mentioned hopefully. That will work for you. I look forward to trying that, and I am not ever requiring that. You admit that you threw the pencils.

Gillian Boudreau: No, no, okay. And that just got my mind going on. I love the language. Just humor me. So the the we really need some ways to get information to someone who might be in too much of a shame attack to to honestly to share the same reality with us. Right? So so, the kid you're describing, they they cannot participate in the reality that they threw the pencil. They cannot participate in the reality that they were upset. They can't even participate in the reality that anything untoward or distressing was happening for anyone. Right so. But you still need to find a way to get the information for next time to them. And here are some ways that I really like to get information, kind of like over the fence of shame to to someone's nervous system. So I love the idea. Just humor me right? Because like I'm probably this. Let's not. I could easily be wrong. And also here's just some random lady saying some nonsense. Just wait it out right? Another one I like is, I'm telling myself a story that.

Joelle van Lent: Right.

Gillian Boudreau: Whatever. It's just a story. I'm telling myself a story that maybe if you had some other options that could have been different, I could be totally wrong. Here's what some other options could be I don't know, and then you run away, and then a 3rd one that I actually really like for the prickliest of kids who are some of my favorites, and the ones I have you know, try to get through school. The most is to say you've probably already thought of this. And then you say the thing like, I imagine you probably already thought of this. And here are some things people can do if if they need a minute in class, and I find that those things so just humor me. I'm telling myself a story, and you've probably already thought of this can a little bit like- sometimes I think of that oceans 11 safe that had, like all those lasers around it, you know. Sometimes I think about that when I'm just trying to lob information.

Joelle van Lent: Yes.

Gillian Boudreau: An upset and ashamed person, and those those statements can like reduce some of the lasers.

Joelle van Lent: Yeah, no, totally. And I the other trick that I love with, especially a middle or high schooler, who was just flat out denying wrongdoing that that everyone literally saw is like, so I want to talk to you about this. I didn't do that. Okay, if you want. I didn't actually want to talk to you about whether you did it or not. I wanted to talk to you about what you needed and how we could have gotten that need met. But I didn't do it. Okay, if you want to schedule a time later to talk about whether you did it or not. Happy to do that right now, I'm interested in what did you need earlier today? Around 1015 ish? And and how could you have gotten that need met differently? And then we could talk later. If you want about whether or not or what you did. That seems that's not relevant right now to my goal. And so you're just what is, what can we agree on? Maybe we could agree around 1015, you might have needed something right like what? And then how do I plow through? Because now I'm repeatedly building trust with a person in the this strategy is really for the person who frequently struggles behaviorally and cannot effectively process. So obviously, there are people who infrequently struggle, and they're very confident and feel a strong sense of belonging. And we can just say a professional version of knock it off. But then and then there are people who, you know, are are able to kind of sit and talk things through. But when the person can't admit wrongdoing, just step right over that, and you got to show them what what you want to do after that, repeatedly, in order for them to possibly be willing to say yes. I messed up earlier.

Gillian Boudreau: That's so important, so honestly owning, the behavior is like the last step, like maybe in 6 months step. And we don't actually need that we can trust that the other person actually does know that they did it. And may be likely to take some steps to do something differently next time, because it does not feel good to mess up. Even if they're not in a position to like, verbally confirm and confess that something went on.

Joelle van Lent: In 6 months, if, unless unless their life in some part of their life, there are people who have power and authority that are not reliably safe, in which case it will take much longer than 6 months for you to show them the adaptive capacity to see some adults are safe in some context, I just have to figure out who, as opposed to all adults, are unpredictable. All adults are unsafe. Never let your guard down, which is a survival stance that they've come by through experience. And so you're trying to entice them to just a shift in that which is that some adults are safe in some context, and I might be one of those. And let me show that to you by not demanding that you admit wrongdoing and focus instead, on steps 2 through 6 every time. And then, if you ever say Wow, like, I totally messed up earlier, I would be like, Wow.

that's amazing that you could say that to me, and we totally know what to do now, don't we? Because we've done it a bunch of times. So what did you need what would have worked better. Yeah.

Gillian Boudreau: That's so cool.

Joelle van Lent: Yeah, awesome do's and don'ts.

Gillian Boudreau: I guess this sort of is a podcast. That is a little bit about how to how to deal with - because I guess the reason you and I get called into schools. Right is for help with those kids who are the most likely, of course, to struggle emotionally and behaviorally right. So I suppose people just know that already. But I'm sort of like, yeah, I guess everything we're saying really like it. It will work for everyone like the beauty of this is that I don't think there are side effects of any of this for even the kids who are not struggling. But yeah, this is really for that subset of kids that are struggling to a degree that it's really hard to keep the cart on the road. And then these are the the pieces that might seem like they're a lot of trouble, but that actually will reduce the trouble that might otherwise ensue.

Joelle van Lent: Right? Right? Yeah. I mean there, because, like, we want people to have a a toolbox with lots of options. So it's the right tool for the right job at the right time. There probably are times where it's totally okay to, you know. To to not be as intentional and thoughtful as we're suggesting and in moving through something. And it's not necessarily like problematic. But when it clearly doesn't work, then we have to know well, that didn't work, and that works in other circumstances. So why might that not have worked? And what else could I do? Because likely you have a more vulnerable student, for whatever reason, and they need

us to be, not telling them what they need and and not rushing them and not demanding that they admit wrongdoing cause. That is just gonna get us more stuck.

Gillian Boudreau: The 3 we came up with that.

Joelle van Lent: Yeah.

Gillian Boudreau: So yeah, that's right. Okay, well, there we go.

Joelle van Lent: All right. Awesome.

Gillian Boudreau: Great talking to you, Joelle. Thanks.

Joelle van Lent: You as well, Gillian. Bye, everyone.

Gillian Boudreau: See you next time.