Finding Hope in Simplicity and Connection. Featuring our first *guest!*

Joelle and Gillian welcome their first guest to the Podcast!  Meet Roger, a teacher in the Maryland/DC area.  Roger shares his approaches to supporting students in the context of heightened stress and certainty.  He shares a strategy that utilizes routine, writing, and connection to support students to access learning even when they are contending with powerful emotions.  Some themes that emerge include self-trust, sharing the worry, and always having a plan.  

We mentioned neuroscientist Dan Siegel's "Name It To Tame It:"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZcDLzppD4Jc

Find us on Instagram!

Gillian: https://www.instagram.com/clearconnectionpsychology/

Joelle: https://www.instagram.com/joelle.vanlent/

Transcript

Hello, welcome back to Stance of Curiosity. I'm Gillian Boudreau. And I'm Joelle Van Lent. And today, listeners, we have our first guest. This is so exciting. So it's not just Joelle and I. Today, we are welcoming Roger, an educator from the Maryland/DC area. Welcome, Roger. We're so glad you're here. Thank you both so much for having me. So today, we wanted to talk about how to maintain hope and agency when we are educators working in schools, when honestly, a lot of things may be shifting and changing very quickly in our nation, in our state and federal policies, in our school policies. We're recording this in February of 2025. And I'm based in Oregon. Joelle is based in Vermont, and we were so glad to be able to speak to, you know, a colleague as well, who is certainly, you know, more right in the thick of it geographically, as far as administrative changes, but also just to talk about what we're seeing nationally as once again, right, educators are thrown into a situation where we need to scramble around some very startling changes. It's been a big, big five to eight years with this for education. Yeah. Go ahead, Roger. I wanted to thank you all for, for, for opening up this discussion and this dialogue. That's the only bit I needed to add in. So I apologize. Oh, no, that's fine. We have to get used to the pattern of having three people.

So, um, you know, I guess I, I wanted to start, I want to talk about the themes of what's making this challenging right now, but I wanted to start with, I've been, I talked with a colleague and we were talking about what does give you hope. Because it kind of feels right now, like a lot of things are happening that are out of our control. And one of the things that can trip us up is if we feel like there's, um, change happening or there's uncertainty or, or there's things going on that are deeply impactful to us and to the people that we, that we serve professionally. So then you can start feeling like you're losing your footing and your anchors are, um, are less sturdy.

So we were talking about what does give us hope. And so I wanted to ask each of you what right now specifically, what does give you hope? Okay. I'll jump in. And then Roger, I really want to hear from you. It is, it is funny. We're like trying to get used to like guests. It's like, do you give them the question first or do you, I don't know. Yeah, I'll start off. So Roger has a moment to think, um, I think so. Joelle and I had listeners may remember sort of a funny conversation a few episodes ago about where each of us needs to go in our mind during times of uncertainty, right. With Joelle being more like, okay, well, here's what we know and here's what we can do.

And my brain tends to go more toward, well, if most things change as we know it, right? What are like some of the more existential things that we could hold on to? And so I think. I'm often going to a place in my mind that says no matter kind of where humanity lands on the other side of this, there are still going to be groups of kids and there are still going to be really well-meaning adults trying to, um, help them understand what it is to be human and how to human well. And so that tends to be my touchstone, right. It's sort of like, okay, regardless of infrastructure, regardless of how this is all organized as humans, we still do know a lot about what it means to be a good human.

And so I think that's a really good question. And I think that's a great way to describe being a good human. And to, um, build communities of kids that can learn that too. And so that's, that's what I keep going back to and going back to when I get overwhelmed or start to feel hopeless. No, I think that makes a lot of sense. I know for me and my experience, whenever a student has come to me and is in that state where, you know, he, or she, again might be extremely stressed from something that could be going on at home The product of the school, my default and I, and again this is this is likely the - the um the seasoned teacher in me.

Is I asked them to to write about it and it gives them again a moment to just kind of pause to catch their breath and they may not be ready to communicate to me exactly what's happening and I also may not be in the position to receive that so it gives us both sort of this two to five minutes of time to have where I get to collect my thoughts and prepare myself for what's about to come and the student gets the opportunity to get those thoughts down on paper. From there, we can look we can - I will read it, reflect, we have an opportunity to to at least talk about something that now we both know and we're both in a place where we can respond to it accordingly.

Yeah, I think that is so powerful and I, I really like how you said sometimes the adult needs a minute right to be like 'oh okay, I'm about to need to help process or metabolize something really big' and giving. Both parties, um, the space to kind of collect and and prepare so we can do that well. That's amazing, Roger, you are a really seasoned teacher, I know this because I know you. But is it like in the 20s now? Of years? Yeah, no, I just met my my 20th year, so it's congratulations! It's exactly 20. Oh, that's huge! What grades do you work with, Roger? Um, I have taught um primarily in elementary and middle school years.

Haven't had as much experience in the high school um ages but yeah, no again, my niche has always been sort of the middle school um upper middle school and uh upper elementary school. I'm curious like in in Vermont prior to the pandemic I felt like the students that I worked with, especially in elementary and middle school, mostly, Seemed like they were quite blissfully unaware of like politics and government, and like big like maybe things that were going on in the world, and and I think appropriately involved in just their process of growing up and in their sort of immediate family and social world that seems to have changed in the past five-ish years. I feel like I've talked with more kids that are fearful of things like school shootings and things like that, and I feel like I've talked to more kids that are still socialized and aware of things like political tensions and and and aware of what's going on in the in the bigger picture and I've thought about that in terms of their anxiety and their development, like I think we're supposed to learn if things go the way that we want which of course doesn't always or even maybe often happen. Kids are dealing with smaller challenges so to speak to learn the skills that will then awkwardly in addition to make sense of it as reports of over reprisals potential unexpected challenges in the for bigger ones. And so the existential and bigger things seem to be hitting kids younger. I'm curious, in the Maryland, D.C. Area, has that felt like a shift or has that always been the case? 

I feel like a major change occurred post-pandemic and returning into the classroom environment, again, had never seen levels of anxiety amongst students until after that return. And since then, it's, I would say, greatly further exacerbated by political, environmental, again, so many changes that have come about that have left so many students unsettled. For lack of better words. And an unsettled student isn't a student who is in a position to thrive in an academic environment. I've always been a big believer of that. If a child is safe, a child will learn. If a child does not feel safe, then the walls do go up. 

Mm-hmm. Yeah. There's an expression that Gillian and I have talked about on and off over the years about, I think, thinking about a child who's contending with adversity being unavailable to learn. And we've sort of grappled with the idea of, like, we need to understand that they need to feel safe to be available to learn. They need to feel connected to be available to learn. And they also deserve an education. And they are capable of so much. And so we can't lower our expectations just because there's adversity. And if we can’t resolve the adversity in a timely manner, we have to find a way to offer them an education anyway. And so I have this sort of, like, mixed, like, sort of a hesitant relationship with the phrase unavailable to learn.

Because it almost seems like, well, then we're going to wait until they’re available, which isn’t probably going to work for a lot of students. No, that's very fair. It’s, they, many students don’t have the luxury, you know, again, to put on, put their education on the line. And so I think, you know, it's - there’s this sense of like if they're able to put their education on hold until they're able to be back in a in a or be back in a place where they feel safe inside so you're right we we still have to persevere. That's often times where that notebook comes in quite handy, because very often I'll, I'll have a student, again, it was just, again, in the recent week, come in, and just in a heightened state.

I pull the notebook out, offer a pen, and they're asked to get those thoughts out over the next five minutes or so; then we debrief, and then we're back to um, we're back to work as long as that student is able to then return more often than not in my experience, I'd say safely seven out of ten times I can get that student to again, return to to the task at hand. Having brought them down a little bit from where they were when they first came into the environment, oftentimes saying completely validating everything that they've written down; saying that our next move is to find time with the counselor who can better support you, but are you able to move forward and, as I said seven times out of ten, I get the nod and they can keep going and they persevere, and the, the learning doesn't necessarily have to be halted.

But, there there is no, there is no extra time; it can't be paused, and oftentimes, yeah, we, we must move forward to ensure that those gaps are are well so those gaps to ensure that those gaps are addressed.  

Yeah it's like there's i feel like there's a micro and a macro on that that - well - but that made me think about so many things roger thank you for that um it makes me think about how folks function through active trauma right like um you know in therapy and also in teaching right we do often say things like well you know like ideally if we can, Can we wait to teach until a person is regulated and grounded? Or sometimes in the therapy world, it's like, oh, well, can we wait to do the deep trauma therapy until a person's no longer experiencing active trauma? And I think you used the word luxury, Roger, and that really resonated with me. Many times there's not the luxury. And this might seem like sort of a side, a little bit of a right turn, or it's a little bit outside the realm of this podcast, but sometimes when I'm working with couples too, right? Like people will often say, 'Well, I wanted to address this thing,' or 'I wanted to talk about shifting the form of the relationship, but I was just waiting until the other person was calm to do it. And that day never came, right? Like it's; we never talked about any hard thing because it got to this place where eventually it felt like the other person was just never calm enough to talk about anything. And so it is really, it's an interesting piece, right? How do we, as humans, function through active trauma in the hopes of, you know, in the hopes of getting to the other side of it, I suppose. Right. So it's like how it also makes me think of like lily pads of homeostasis. Joelle has heard me talk about this a lot, but Roger, I'll explain what I mean. So when we, Joelle and I, will often talk about something called allostatic load, which is what happens to the brain when it's dealing with, you know, when it's dealing with, you know, chronic uncertainty, right.

But, but chronic trauma could go into that bucket as well, which is that essentially the brain will just start cycling between survival responses, right? It'll try fight, it'll try flight, it'll try, try flee. But if, if the, if the threat that the brain is coding either is clear and present, but isn't going away or right, is more abstract or collectively held, that's like something we might, we might know that's going on in the world around us. The nervous system will get very frustrated because it's like, oh, I don't know what's going on. So we need to kind of work with the brain to access these lily pads of homeostasis, which often means going with a survival response, right.

Giving that survival response, uh, a contained amount of space so that the survival brain can have the feeling of like, okay, we dealt with it to some degree. It, it doesn't mean that the fight or flight or, or flee or flight is going to be won't pop up again at some point, but we can siphon some off and get a lily pad. And I think that that, you know, for your students to, for one, have a moment with themselves, right. To be present with their own experience, to write it down and then to be able to bring that experience to a trusted adult, to feel it really witnessed, validated and seen; that is a tried and true way to create a lily pad of homeostasis, right.

And sometimes that's all we need to, and then we learned some fractions and that's good because we're going to need fractions no matter what happens in the future. Right. Exactly. Yeah. I think what you're doing is creating, it's like almost like with what Gillian's saying, your ritual, you’re very predictable. If they come into your classroom elevated, they can predict that you're going to get a journal and you're going to give them a few minutes to download that in the journal. And so I think that's a really good way to do that. You're going to then, I'm guessing, do a brief, but validating debrief because you're in the middle of teaching. And then you're going to ask them, what can they do? Right.

So the question isn't, you know, are you available to be, you know, the best student ever today? No, it's what can you do? And so can you listen to what we're doing? Can you stay in the room? So you're offering them predictability. You're offering them a ritual that kind of compartmentalizes in a journal in this symbolic way, this distress, and then you're offering them the option to put that away and engage in a distraction, healthy distraction or not, you know, if they can't. And so I bet the lily pad that Gillian's describing, a lot of the power of that is the predictability of your response and that ritual. And then the last thing I'm thinking is that when you ask them to write, you can't write from your reptilian brain.

You have to come back to your higher-order brain to write. And so you're actually maybe bringing them to a different brain state, you know, in a low threat way when you're ready and in whatever you can write this down. It also reminds me of Dan Siegel's name it to tame it. Right. So writing is even more powerful because you need to be even further out of your survival brain to write. But Dan Siegel's a neuroscientist and he often says name it to tame it, which means if you can even just get a really huge feeling through the language centers of your brain, even by verbally speaking it, to some degree, that's why talk therapy works, right? Because then it's literally just living. It's activating a different and less disruptive part of your nervous system.

Yeah. I'm wondering, Roger, if you could talk about once a student has written for a bit and now they're looking at you. Like what, how long would that debrief be? And like what, if you could describe for, for somebody listening, who is a teacher thinking 'I'm so busy', how would I have time for that? Like what, what does that actually look like? 

Well, I think the, the reason why I'm able to do this is the first 5-10 minutes. 10 minutes of classroom instruction is actually independent student work. So the students file into the classroom, they know their initial task, call it your 'do now' or call it whatever. Um, they get right to it. It's then kind of gives me an opportunity to, um, and I never thought about it in this capacity, but it gives me opportunity to, to triage the room. I can identify those who, need a little bit of additional, social, emotional support, those who can advocate for themselves, the ones who will come directly to me and request their notebook, they're in a different place, but there are countless other students who may come in and not have that ability to say,I need this, or can I have, so I can quickly scan the room. And if I am in front of - okay, you know - 25 to 30 students, you can quickly decide, you know, who's on task and who's not on task. And for those who aren't on task, they're the ones who I'm going to address first. How are you? Checking in, want to make sure that everything's okay.

Or, you know, sometimes even more quickly, you know, wondering why you're not moving on to the do now, you know, and then things begin to emerge. It's, I also wanted to chime in, I, Gillian, you had said, and I'm going to feel for it. But I, there was this one word that you'd said that really, again, struck a chord in me. I think it was along with the lily pads and the, and maybe also the consistency. Again, if I look back to my first, let's say, five years of teaching, and I did not necessarily have that wherewithal, that, that self-trust, that, hey, I know that I can handle whatever you bring me. Mind you, 20 years in the game, I still don't know if I will have everything that I can handle. But I also know that it's not necessarily, um, it's not all my burden. But if I can give you a space, I can give you the opportunity to pause. In that time, I've reached out to a guidance counselor, I've reached out to someone else who can also provide support to that student. I no longer wear it all on my shoulders, whereas I feel in my first five years or so, I just thought I had to do it all. And I didn't know how to create that space first for students to do all that work that they have to kind of do on their own. That self-regulation. I tell you, some of the most gratifying, um, moments are when a student after writing in the journal says, no, actually, we don't have to debrief. You know, I'm good. You know, and I'm just like, perfect. And moving forward, you know, um, so, yeah, no, again, it’s - I've been really thankful that this technique has responded, or students have responded so well to it. It's been through trial and error, but I feel like at this point, it's a skill that has served me well and serves me on a daily basis. Not a week of instruction will pass without me using it. 

Okay, so I do have some deep questions for you regarding that beauty you just shared. But first, I have a very pragmatic question for folks who might want to adopt this. And I apologize if you already covered this. Does each student automatically get their own notebook, just in case of this? So this is interesting. I am at the start of every school year when school supplies are at their cheapest. I am that. I am that teacher who will go to a nearby Staples or even, you know, online and purchase way too many composition notebooks. And I literally keep them in my closet, just in case. And it's not just for the sake of this journaling. It's, you know, just practical. You know, again, you need notebooks, you need to have accessibility. A student walks into your classroom. And maybe doesn't have the supplies that he or she needs. I have to ensure that I have those. So, yeah, I probably have a small storage, or when I say small, probably easily 25 to 50 extra books on hand. 

So then I'm so sorry to be concrete. Let's say it's the first time that a given child, right, has come to you and this is the first time that you've been in a position to say to that child, 'Hey, let's write this in a notebook.' Is, is that, is it one that you're sort of like, 'Oh, here, like, I guess, is there a notebook that's mostly for this?' Once kids start to do this, or is it more like get any notebook? People probably don't need this information but I'm really in the weeds now. I mean, it could simply be literally a sheet. Any notebook. Got it.

Okay, thank you. I think it really does depend where I am in the lesson. And if I can go that far. And if I just think that it's just a small moment in time. Again, there are certain students that you know you met them on day one and you're like, oh, there's something you're not quite comfortable here, I can, I can, I can tell. Those are the students that, again, you, you know that it's going to eventually come. And, again, interesting that you mentioned that. There was a student who, from, from day one, just didn't necessarily feel comfortable in having conversations and would often look away and, you know, again, came to my mind of just like, oh, is she, is she comfortable in being in the classroom environment? Never asked for it. But again, a week ago, came in and said, I'm facing all of this. And for her, it was just like, yeah, here you go. And it's just been such a game-changer for her, because now, again, she will self-advocate, she'll ask for that. So, but yes, any, any notebook will do. 

Cool. Sometimes on this podcast, I joke about how obvious it is that I've actually never been a classroom teacher, because I'm like, 'So then, okay, so then a child comes to you, but there's more than one child, you're telling me.' Okay. 

That's fair, that's fair. 

I just want to say it's great that Gillian’s asking very practical, concrete questions, because in our relationship, I'm the practical one, and Gillian's the dreamer. And so I'm just right now loving that she was the one asking the practical questions that people are going to have. I think those were great questions, like that, you know, how would that actually work? I just love that you're finding a way to say, write this down, which, which allows you to continue steering the ship, but it doesn't say, I don't have time for this right now, or that’s something you need to talk to somebody else about.  There's nothing dismissive about write it down but it does allow you to keep steering the ship and then circle back to it in a throughout way. It’s quite brilliant in its simplicity, I love it.

Well thank you, and it’s again the years of experience that has helped me get here.

And due to your years of experience, I wanted to ask you a little bit about how you got where you have landed mindset-wise, because you were describing two, I think, just core principles there of self-trust, and Joelle often will use a phrase I love, which is sharing the worry, right? So, so it sounds like what distinguishes maybe among many things that distinguishes your experience in your first five years. To the following, right, was that you built a level of self-trust to be able to handle what students bring, and you also figured out how to share the worry, right, whether it's concretely with, like, school counselors or whether it's more existential, right, like, knowing how much you can reasonably take responsibility for as just one human in the world, even if you are a very important human, right, in the role of classroom teacher. Do you know how you got there? Or, you know, if I'm thinking about our listeners, especially if some, you know, might be newer in the field, what, what contributed to that process for you, do you think? 

Yeah, no, that's an awesome question. So, I will always say experience, again, years of, of seeing students and noticing patterns. I also have to acknowledge professional development. Again, I know. It can sometimes be when people hear it, they're just like, oh, professional development. I have been really fortunate in regards that I have had the opportunities to, to work with many talented psychologists, many talented school counselors who have provided professional development around supporting students. When a student walks into the environment and is experiencing trauma, so much of this, I think, again, came out of the, the pandemic. It was really after the hiatus of about a year and a half from classroom environments and coming back, we were essentially asked to make social emotional our priority. And I had, you know, experience. But, you know, it, you know, again, all of my years of experience, the majority of my years of experience have been in schools. And, and when I first heard this, it kind of, it shook me because again, I go back to the whole notion of that's a, that's a, that's always been a luxury. That's a luxury. Yeah. And yes, times are hard, but we must persevere. And again, that was sort of the - the internal mantra, you know, I mean that's how I had helped my past students to be successful. It's just like, you know, I've been taught that. Like, yes, despite what's going on in our community, despite the hardship of very young people having very, very real experiences, there's still the tomorrow that we're working towards. But post-pandemic, I was suddenly asked to put that on hold. And that was a very critical period. And again, that was a very difficult year for so many reasons. Because again, many students came back to school missing, again, that year and a half of instruction. I would say that there were a group that COVID definitely helped, and they grew, grew, grew. But I would say that it made the rich richer, it made the poor poorer. Oh, yes. So those who returned with the greatest deficits, I had a greater sense of urgency to say, 'Hey, hey, hey, wait, wait, wait, no, we must keep going.' But those, again, those were oftentimes the same students who needed the most social-emotional. So I took tips from colleagues. I always, again, you mentioned all the simplicity, I always look for the simplest solution. Again, the reason why I do that is, is it needs to be sustainable. You know, as a as a writing teacher, what do I have to offer? I have to offer paper, a pencil, pen, and please, let's write about this. As you said earlier, as both of you said earlier, again, recognizing that what you come in with is very real. And I cannot, as your teacher, as your trusted adult, I will not say that it's not, you know, again, I, I might hear again, a student come in and say, Oh, so and so broke up with me. And I'm just like, Okay, stop. But, again, it's just like, No, no, this is real. So because it's real, because you were brave enough to bring it to me, I am going to treat this with as much care as I possibly could. Take a minute, please write down some thoughts. Now, again, depending upon where, I think, you know, like what they're experiencing is coming from. I, I won't put a deadline on a student who I know is coming in with something a little bit more detailed. More. Um, but again, in the case of, you know, so-and-so broke up with me, excited. Yes. You're a middle schooler. I get it. Write that down. Let's get back to task. Yeah.  So, I hope that answered the question.

What you said, I mean it totally answered the question, and it got my gears turning about something else, which is that when they write it down, that also gives you a second to, I like your word triage to triage. Okay. Is this - Joelle, I’m thinking again about your, um, gradations of stress, right? So is this like tolerable stress, which I might think of as this like age-appropriate stress, middle school breakup. Okay. Super stressful and age-appropriate. We can probably go, you know, let's talk about it and then see if we can return, you know, versus, um, you know, it's, this is a little bit, Joelle and I will sometimes talk about toxic stress, um, which well, you know, I, I don't know if, you know, but what I'm mostly thinking about is stress that falls pretty far out of developmental expectation. And when it's that right, then you have a chance to sort of recognize that and change your approach. If that needs to be accommodated a little bit differently. 

Yeah. Um, I mean, 100 again, it's, it's very different when it's age-appropriate, when it's age-appropriate, it falls into the wheelhouse. You've seen it before. Um, you're gonna see it again. It's not, it doesn't feel abnormal. It feels very much consistent with, with the student in their age. It's when they bring in other things that are a little bit outside of, of, um, outside of what they can handle and what they can control and their control. They're looking for stability and, and, um, and the situations that they're in. 

I think that's, I think that's a good rule of thumb. It's like, because I think sometimes we, um, plan our response based on how distressed the child is, which isn't always the most helpful co-regulating influence. And so I think if we think about like positive stress, which doesn't really feel positive, but it is the typical challenges of childhood. They're having a huge reaction to the typical challenges of childhood. We're going to validate that and honor it as their reality, ask them to write it down. But the, the, the amount of time that it's sort of going to be able to co-opt their learning opportunity is going to be less than something that's obviously, um, bigger and more outside of what would be a typical demand of childhood. So if you, as the adult who are trying to navigate so many things simultaneously could just think about, 'Is this a typical like middle school problem?

And if so, then I think that's so it's real for them and I'm going to take care of it. Um, but I'm also going to expect them to be back on routine fairly quickly because that's actually going to be really helpful. And then if it's way outside of the norm, I might allow it to have more time, but either in either way, you're also saying like, 'I'm, I'm going to stay in the role of teacher.' And if there's, if you need a deeper dive on this, I'm going to bring you to the school counselor or bring you to back to your parent or bring you to whoever. In your life, it's job is to do more work of depth with this, which also I think is a really important point in what you're saying is that you're very open to what they're bringing you, but you, I'm, what I'm hearing you say is you're all the while staying in the role of teacher.

Yes. No, I would say that that's my, that is my main role. And it's a role that I, I honor and it's the consistency that I, I think I bring on a regular basis to that role that, um, also lets them know that, Hey, when I, when I ask them do I have the permission to extend, you know, what we just discussed to our counselor or to, again, another member of the school-based team that can support you. Again, always, always ask permission, um, almost, without a doubt, 90% of the time. Yes. The answer is. And, and again, um, I make sure that they're, they’re, fully aware that they can always come back to me, um, that I'm always a resource, but that there are other resources in this building that I can also support them and their needs. 

It makes me also think about gosh, permission is so important. Firstly, just don't want to - permission and consent are so key to, for one, just being respectful, but also keeping humans calm. Um, and that can sometimes be tricky on a team. So it's, it's wonderful that you are remembering to ask that permission and that, you know, I imagine that kids trust you a lot, right. And that probably helps them to extend their trust to adults that you also trust.

I just get the sense talking to you that you probably function at the pace that you are in this conversation. Most of the time, which means that there's like a level of trust that you have with your kids, there's a level of like measured patience. So I'm imagining if a student said, no, you don't have permission, you probably would say, well, if you change your mind, that would be a good person to bring it to. And then you just wait. And what I've learned about, especially I think middle schoolers is like for some, sometimes I'll say, I have an idea about this problem. Do you want to hear it? And they'll say no. And I'll be like, okay, it was good. But anyway, moving on. And then they just can't stand it.

They want to know what it was like. And then they just can't stand it. And then they because it was about them. And so they'll come back and say, well, it was the idea about me. And I'm so, oh, okay, I'll tell you. And then I tell them, and then they sometimes will say, well, I don't like that idea. All right, well, whatever. But it's just, you know, we can't be intrusive, right? We have to offer and then back off if that's what they need, and then wait. And that so often brings them forward when we just offer and wait. Yes. And of course, I mean, again, there are situations that that permission may not always be able to be a valid thing.

Again, I also let them know, there's certain things that if you tell me, I am 100% liable, safe. And it's; and that isn't a question of permission or not. It's just like, yep, okay, we're going to make that transition to get you the support that you need. Because again, I'm thankful that you brought this to me. We're going to make sure that you have the help that you need to to make sure that we can address this immediately. Yeah, yep. Yep. That's such an important line, too. So, you know, we started this conversation in the context of, you know, what we're currently facing as a schools and as a nation. And I'm, you know, boy, it feels tricky to talk about. It's tricky for me even to like, talk about right now, right?

Like, we're not used to, like, this is, you know, it feels a little scary to talk about. And it also feels scary to our kids, right? That there are a lot of things coming down the pike, potentially for schools right now, that at least in my opinion, are likely to damage and potentially harm kids, right? So, for example, but I love this, this idea, right, of, okay, let's take a beat, let's write it down. That'll give us all a minute to think about it, right? Because that could also apply to children who, for example, might be rightly afraid of immigration, right? Coming to their school, right? Or harming their family, right? That, that would also certainly apply to; I work with a lot of trans kids. And there are a lot of very clear and present concerns, you know, for young kids who should not be needing to follow the news. And so I think that, that's really important, because I think that there are a lot of things too. Like, we could learn very closely to such a degree that could really impact their lives, but it may, right? So there are all of these massive things going on. But I think we, as adults, have a lot of fear and questions about, too. And we have certainly not wrapped our heads around yet, either, That kids are gonna need our support with.  And I really like this idea of let’s write it out.  Let’s write it out and we’ll think about it together.  We're going to need to slow this down and be collaborative because this is, by definition, a lot of really scary and confusing and disorienting stuff at one time for adults as well as kids.

Yeah, I again one thing I will say is with the change with the changes that have taken place over the past two months, many students have come in with heightened anxiety. Anxiety and, the questions that I have received, you know, as far as you know what will happen if you know, what will happen to me, yes, if dot dot dot and it's so hard it's so hard when, again your responsibility as a teacher is to be their educator but you're also responsible to keeping them safe and having the knowledge that a student that doesn't feel safe isn't as isn't going to perform at his or her best rate , so often I again this is a this is this is my this is my daily and it's through my work with with other colleagues it's through collaboration that we've been able to really sit with this and and and try to contemplate again how do we how do we help meet these students' needs, the writing is huge, giving them that space, acknowledging their feelings letting them know That, that, they can always use that as a as a space to express their thoughts and that we can give them that space to express their thoughts and that we can give them that space, give them the opportunities to speak to, counselors and others who can you know continue the work that, that maybe I can't, unrelated some some of the the things that i feel are most helpful to these students are some of the the basics that, I think many students are taught in the early years of life.

I almost think back to, what do you do if you're in an emergency? Yeah, you know, what are the first steps. I had the opportunity to have a professional development with the Red Cross and and first responders and again, they really focused on creating a plan before you find yourself in an emergency. And, in my classroom, the notebook is the plan. But I think it's again it's important for scholars to also, in families, to know again what's the plan, you know like this. What might be going on in our society might feel like a huge emergency to so many. Again, if you're living in, I'll use the example of the coastal Carolinas, you probably have an emergency plan for a hurricane or another natural disaster. Well, okay, what is the emergency plan for this? And again, there's just something, so I go back to the idea of trying to, some problems you cannot simplify, but the steps that you take to address problems as they arise can be routine. So again, not sure if that answered your entire question, but I think it's something that I definitely needed and wanted to share. Share no, that feels so important because it's what reminds me of like the idea that when children and teenagers ask us a question that we don't know the answer to or that we are also grappling with um, it's what I think most helpful to them is to say, 'I have the same question' or 'I have the same uh worry', I have the same emotion.

And so when you don't know how to answer the question or you can't offer reassurance because it wouldn't be truthful to do so, what you do is model how to cope with uncertainty or you model how to cope with the emotion. So, I don't know how to solve that problem, but I do know how to cope with having a problem. So, the first thing I do is write it down and then I make a plan with someone that I trust. And so that's what we're going to do. It's just remarkably um grounding, I think, to them that you can um, you know, stay present in the context of big emotion or uncertainty and you're not you have an idea of how to move forward even when you can't explain the inexplicable um you know to them and i i imagine that's incredibly helpful

I’m really fortunate in the regards that I when I first began in this profession I made it more or less my my duty to show up as the same person on a daily basis and I've tried to create so many routines over the years that it’s fortunate that many of us are able to do that and i'm really fortunate many of these routines can be applied in in moments of crisis um and again I'm I feel sort of hardwired to look for a routine when things become sort of helter skelter so in in times like this again it's uh well what can we go back to what's worked in the past 

Yeah i think what gives i'm going to go back to the question i asked at the beginning what gives us hope like i think what gives me hope is that what you're saying is just so remarkable and i know that you're one of thousands of teachers in this country that are showing up every day and that have routines and that are um offering really incredible you know sort of like grounding rituals and safe you know experiences for students and so that i mean there's power in the way that we're doing it and i think that's what gives us hope like i think What gives me hope is the number of just how many of of us are showing up every day, and in the way that we do in our helping professions, so it's so helpful because when you um feel like what's going on then you remember that there's a lot of really good things going on, but they're not on the news maybe 

No that's that's so very fair um and again it's I it's um it's not done alone and I feel every educator everyone everyone who who has the responsibility and um who has is is fortunate enough to have the responsibility to um impact the life of a child um has to know that they they're not working alone and that um many of their colleagues are feeling the same way and it's it's important to talk to those colleagues and to share these strategies and um because again at the end of the day it's it's going to it's going to be what's it's going to help these these learners and these students yeah collective action. 

i love it well roger thank you so much for what you shared today and joelle wonderful to see you as always yes great to see great to meet you roger and so inspired by what you're doing i feel like we're in different parts of the country the three of us we could make a triangle with our locations we're the same direction so it's really it's really inspiring and helpful to connect

And thank you both for this podcast and this opportunity to share again um when i was first asked it was you know i think we all kind of sometimes wonder okay why is my voice significant enough to deliver this message but I think it's when we realize that we're all of our voices collectively must deliver these messages in order to to bring about any change or any stability in times that are that are less than yes it's like points of light 

Woo yeah well this has been our first stance of curiosity with a guest I feel very full-hearted i hope listeners do too um and we'll See you next time, bye-bye everyone!