What do we think about technology use among kids and teens now?

Gillian and Joelle discuss their ever-evolving professional opinions on technology, social media, and video gaming use among elementary, middle, and high school students.  While it may seem clear what schools should do in elementary and middle school, high school turns out to still be an area of debate.  Joelle proposes that setting clear boundaries is easier than it may seem.  Gillian offers nuance from neurodiversity-affirming practice and what she is learning from self-advocates.  Our thinking may have even evolved during this conversation!  Join us to see how your experiences line up with our current opinions. 

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Transcript

Hello and welcome back to Stance of Curiosity. I'm Gillian Boudreau. And I'm Joelle Van Lent. Thanks for joining us, everyone. Yeah, Joelle and I were just talking today about how it's lovely to have dear listeners and to just be able to see that we're really building a community here. So thanks all of you for being here. It makes it, you know, Joelle and I would probably gladly yap at each other in a cardboard box, but it really makes it so much more meaningful to be building a community to share it with you all. So just thanks as always for your continued support. Absolutely. We were even joking that maybe we should have t-shirts or hats that say something like stay curious. Yes, that's right. Yeah.

Just have two made and you and I can wear them. We can wear them. That's right. Yeah. But listeners let us know, you know, you can always get in touch if you feel like you would like some merch. Yeah. Yeah. We could just cover the cost and donate the money or something. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah, absolutely. All right. So I was hoping that today we could talk about the evolution of people having devices, smartphones, watches. I think there's something involving glasses potentially. Yes. But just people have access to personal devices. And when I say people, I think for the purposes of this conversation, I at least am thinking about children. So maybe we could think about like elementary, middle, and high school. And I talk about this so.

Much in my work about how, at a certain point, maybe around 2008 if I'm remembering that correctly, smartphones became sort of like available to the degree that, like, lots of people had them. And then it's just kind of like progressed from there, so each year it feels like a greater percentage or, if not close to all, of the kids that were serving in public school, pre-K to 12, have had for most of their lives, either parents with personal devices, caregivers with personal devices, and then at some age, they had access to those as well. And so it does feel like we're educating and raising and supporting a generation that is different in some ways than the pre-personal device sort of like readily available.

And I think there's, you know, the anxious nation and there's lots of people really researching and thinking about this. And I thought maybe it would be good if you and I just talked about like today, 2020, early-ish on in 2025. Where are you and I at professionally with the pros and cons noticing the impact of that on kids? Yeah, I think that's really important conversation. And honestly, it honestly is something that I feel like I'm always changing a little bit on. So it'll be great to even hear entirely where I'm at about it today, let alone where you are. Yeah. I mean, I think where I am right now. Being in so many different schools on a day-to-day basis, like today I was in three different schools, two elementary and one middle.

So it's pretty common that I'll be in one or two schools every day, four to five days a week. So that's a lot of schools. I think I'm pretty clearly strongly at a stance that pre-K through grade eight, there should be personal devices off and away. From the start of the school day to the end. Yeah, I agree. Yep. Okay. And technology is only for learning. So technology does not come out to reinforce task completion. It doesn't come out for a choice or play, recreation time, indoor recess, whatever. And it's not how we are recreating, relating, or reinforcing. So it's technology for learning in school. And I know that there are times where our starting point is that we might have a certain student who really is not motivated for the academic tasks of school.

And the only thing that seems to motivate them is some iPad time or tablet or whatever. And I know that sometimes that's our starting point, but I really do believe that we can work toward getting beyond that as the way that we're. Maybe doing a first then plan or something like that. So I know that that might be where we are at our starting point, but I'm hoping that's not where we land. So I feel pretty strongly, and I don't think the plan for that needs to be very difficult. I think the plan for that is pretty simple. If an adult, I think it comes up more in middle school, but if an adult sees a device then there isn't really warnings because everyone kind of knows. There's not reminders or warnings.

We ask them to turn the device into the office. They pick it up at the end of the day. The second time the office gets that person's device, the guardian has to come pick it up. And then we just go, we repeat that as many times as we need to. I'm not really interested in people having a punitive response, although certainly having to hand your device over feels punitive. I think that we're just asking people to follow the norm and the policy that's been carefully established for the community. So just parents pick it up second time forward as many times as that goes. In most middle schools I work in, that takes about a week and then there's a very small number of people that are continuing to challenge.

And then in most middle schools, you establish that norm in September and we kind of drift around like, um, January-ish, we realized that we need to reset the norm and then we reset the norm and then we, we move forward. So I feel really, really strongly that like, that's what it needs to be at the high school level. I'm still sorting out whether I think it should be the same as what I just described. So ninth through 12th grade personal devices are often away or whether I feel like it could be from the beginning of class to the end of class, or whether it could be ninth and 10th graders. don't have their devices, 11th and 12th graders do, but not during class. That's very hard.

Because there are classes with students of mixed grades, which is great together and all of that. So I'm not, I'm not a hundred percent sold on what the high school policy should be, in my opinion, although I would love if we could, if I really want to say off and away. through 12th grade, from the start of school to the end of school. My hesitation is that actually is developmentally maybe more than what's necessary for 12th graders if we've really actually upheld that norm up to that point. And I also feel like it's pretty; it's like, logically, it is actually harder in high school than it is in elementary and middle school, but I just feel so strongly that we have to get to that point. Yeah. Yes. Okay.

So everything you're saying makes a lot of sense to me. I'm going to start with the high school piece, but I'm also going to start with a disclaimer, which is, which is that I have done a massive amount of school psychology K-5. And I've done a fair amount six to eight, but I actually have done not that much school psychology other than doing evals at the high school level. So I have treated a million high school aged kids in individual therapy, but I'm actually realizing and hearing you speak. I have not been in that many high schools as a professional compared to the millions and billions of elementary and middle. So I'm a little bit trying to sort of imagine this, but.

If I think about, okay, what could be any possible life-affirming reason why we might want to consider more flexibility for older kids? Because in general, with any rule, the more we can just have everybody following the same rule, the better as far as that being a rule that works. So I think, yeah, it would be great if we could have everybody follow the same rule in high school. I suppose I'm thinking though, particularly for kids who are old enough to work and who might be in a socioeconomic situation where they need to work or their family needs them to work. I'm wondering if there might be situations where their ability to work might be compromised if, for example, they can't get a text about like a shift change midday.

I guess I'm also thinking about children who. Teens who might be in somewhat parentified roles, and though we wouldn't want this to be true, who might be somewhat responsible for the care of younger siblings if parents are overwhelmed or otherwise not available either that day or this lifetime, who might also, you know, I guess I'm sort of saying, might there be kids who simply are in positions where they have more adult-style responsibility? Even if that's not what we would necessarily want for them at that age, and would a blanket no phones policy almost in a way discriminate against kids who are in that kind of situation. But this is a genuine question because again, as we're talking right now I'm realizing, I don't do a lot of high school school psych.

Yeah, no, I think it's absolutely spot on. I think if many. Many juniors and seniors and some sophomores are driving themselves to school. Yep, true. If we've trusted you with a car and a job and possibly transportation and childcare of your younger siblings, we probably could trust you with a phone, right? So it may feel a little bit insulting. I guess I feel like if we truly upheld no personal devices as a culture, because we believe that that's how we will best. Function as an educational learning environment from pre-K to eight; everybody really understands it's not about something like a role that you have to follow, it's about a culture that we're trying to create where and I would love this to apply to adults too, that's the thing, yeah, yeah, adults who are like communicating that way in the context of their job, for like, for example, the care of a student.

So, I think that um If we really believe that we are going to function better and children are going to develop all kinds of skills that they actually aren't going to develop unless the technology is off in a way. Pre-K through eight, I really do think that they would be better positioned, especially in 11th and 12th grade, to have it on their person and just know that the culture is that you are not interacting with that device during class. From the start of class to the end of class. And I think that it's tricky though, because I think if you gave somebody today a phone for the first time as a ninth grader, they would become addicted to it. I don't care who you are. I don't care how lovely their friends are.

I don't care how lovely their family is. I don't care how healthy they are psychologically. They would become addicted to it because it's a perfect storm between the way the device, social media and gaming designed and the neurological developmental stage that they're in where social feedback gives you a dopamine burst that is much bigger and powerful between those adolescent ages than it is when you're a young child or an adult. So, I think that it should extend definitely through, I think ninth grade is actually kind of still middle school and I have structured ninth grade to have like a smaller world within the bigger world and kind of hold those kids recognizing that I, and I think I think in olden times junior high used to go up to ninth grade too, I feel like that's what my parents report, yeah, yeah, so I think like developmentally, I just think that junior senior year maybe the nerves could be different but if you just say

adults should not see your phones from the start of class to the end of class. I'm assuming they're all going to have them on their person. I don't actually care whether they're on their person. I care whether, I'm not interested in power struggling with a child over possession of a device. I think that is actually really triggering for some kids to have a device taken from them. It's the norm of like where, I don't. I don't need to know where it is. I just need to know that it's often a way you're not interacting with it from day to the end of day. Okay. So, if that's sort of the aspirational, if that's the sort of rule that we're thinking would be a good rule, then are you saying though that there is a moment where once an adult sees the phone, then it is sort of a process of now we need to take the phone?

It's as simple as please go turn that into the office. Yeah. Oh, right. It's not the adult. It's not the teacher taking it, which makes a big difference. Let the office know so-and-so is bringing their phone to you. And if they show up with their phone, then whoever reaches out to the student and said, seems like you need to turn your phone in. If the student won't, then the student and the phone. Are you know in the office? Yeah, it comes and we or the guardian comes and we talk. And if the student will hand the device to the guardian, then the guardian leaves and the student goes back to class. No, yeah, on with life if they want over to the guardian. Then they and their device go home and we try again tomorrow.

Many schools do this, and it's not it actually very quickly narrows down. Yeah, less than five kids who actually really are not able to do this. And those are more complicated situations. It is not a good idea to make an exception because of anxiety. There is no research that shows that having your phone is a healthy coping skill for anxiety. In fact, it often makes it worse. Children can call their parents as many times as they want from a landline in the school, just like they always have. We are going to say you cannot contact your parent guardian during this school as many times as you want whenever you want; you're allowed phone and privacy to do that so, it's fine.

Um, and when you do that, students have told me many times, and I've talked with many administrators of middle school who have said that the students have also said the same thing to them: that they like it better they're talking to each other. People are having more fun at lunch and during any downtime; things are calmer. And obviously, it doesn't stop negative things that happen outside of school directly, but I think it does indirectly. Because I think if you're playing and talking and hanging out with each other all day long, then I think it does influence our behavior outside of school on social media. Still, there are problems for sure. But teachers, kids all tell me everything is better. Yeah. Remove that everything. Like teachers have said to me multiple times, my whole life is better.

Yes. And it's been surprisingly easy to establish when you treat a group of kids between the ages of 11 and 17, when you, when you. tell them this is the norm and you explain why it's not about compliance. It's about a culture that they, we believe is going to be healthy for them. Yeah. State your rationale and you state the procedure and everybody is held to it, including the adults. Yes. Stating the rationale and including the adults seem to be very important kind of non-hierarchical, non-authoritarian parts of this working. Right. And, and, and then it's like, When they're treated the same as everyone else for a norm or a, or a cultural expectation that we know is we know it's right. The kids know it's right.

So they would revolt against it if it were unsafe. Yes. No, it's right. And actually adjust to it. Very quickly. I'm talking about within days. That's amazing. When all the adults are on board. So then. Okay. So then maybe a question I have, I do have a caveat about neurodivergent surprises, surprise that I want to talk about in a moment, but before we get there, what do you know, or what have you noticed as far as building the adult solidarity required? Right. Cause as with, as with any successful social movement, everyone has to kind of be ready to commit at the same time, or at least a tipping point percentage of people. Yeah. I mean, I think we need to say that we're, that we are, we're not discussing this.

We're doing this. Like I think leadership needs to provide a really strong stance. Leadership needs to provide a very simple procedure. You know, I'm letting you know today, I'm letting parents know and guardians tomorrow. And then we're letting students know the following day. And then we're this is what we're doing live and they need to know that. They're going to have backup like that if they say so-and-so is bringing their phone that people are going to find that person and follow through. And then we need to know that human nature with these incredibly busy jobs that educators have we know that people drift the kids will test our our consistency and we know it will drip.

So you will establish it in the end, you know, beginning of the school year, and then you will have to reset it at some point, you know, in the winter. And then, yeah, maybe even every three months I'm imagining. Yep. And that's not a big deal and it's okay. We don't need to get mad at each other. Nope. There doesn't need to be any scolding. I'm not. Nope. It's just like, OK, we've drifted, which is what groups do. We sometimes drift from from back into a bad habit. Right. It's like a family. It's like we're eating a lot of junk food or we're like, you know, staying up really late or we're totally like. I don't know, like we're watching too much TV. So it's like, as a family, it's like, we've drifted from healthy habits.

We're going to reset our habits and everyone knows it's right. And then people get on board and then maybe it's a little bit effortful. So you might drift again and we don't need to get mad. Like who bought the chips? No, it's just like, nope. Like, let's just all get back on board. And I think that that's what. That's what needs to happen. And so, but this time of year, so I'm talking to you, like we're talking in March, mid-March, people are tired and I'm already starting to hear, okay, so we'll think about that for next year. Oh. We got three more months. Oh my, yes. And you can reset tolerances in early June, and it's worth it because it makes things better.

For the rest of the time that you have, and for the start of the next year. Yes, it does lay the groundwork for the next year. Yeah. And I just am almost at the point where I feel like I don't really know how to help with a lot of other like cohort challenges until we establish this policy. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. It's like an individual therapy. It's like how I feel. It's like, all right, well, if we're not sleeping. Right. Like there's little else we can do unless we begin sleeping, you know, like, and I, and I do think, I certainly do agree that the overall impact of screens and in particular social media, right.

We, we know that to be both very addictive and very corrosive and, you know, in my more revolutionary stance, we know that to be addictive and corrosive, honestly, in a pretty malicious way that benefits some bad actors in our society, you know, so there's in, in broad strokes, I agree that there's not much good about it. And then, you know, and as I'm talking about this, I guess I also may need to separate to some degree my philosophy on school versus home. Right. So that's a whole other conversation. Yeah. So some of what I was thinking to bring in here today, I'm now realizing might be more from the sphere of my work that is with families about their homes. Yeah.

But let's shift to that now, because I think I don't feel the same in terms of access to tech. Yeah. Goal as I do during school, so that was like, first of all, and then second of all, so now what do we think about it at home? But we probably both drifted or moved or evolved, yes, I think so. Although well, so you know, I spent a lot of time in the neurodiversity affirming space which means, um, you know, uh, speaking with like autistic self-advocates, right, so autistic adults who them who themselves have grown up to be awesome clinical professionals and have both a clinical take and a lived experience take on what was helpful or not when they were kids, right?

Like, um, and there's certainly, uh, the idea in that realm which a part of me absolutely resonates with that. For certain types of neurodivergence, right, maybe autism and ADHD specifically, maybe autism most specifically, we don't necessarily want to discount, we don't want to assume in the same way that screens are essentially all bad for a few reasons. One, because it can be so hard, especially in a world built by and for neurotypicals. For autistic nervous systems to find a lily pad out of sort of a constant social and sensory overwhelm. Also, the online space very commonly, and I see this all the time with autistic kids and teens who I work with, sometimes the online space is a more comfortable spot.

And in many ways, the first real place that autistic kids get like real community, I've actually seen online community absolutely saved the day for so many autistic kids and teens who I know. And I guess those are the two, right? Is that there could be a little carve out here. I think sometimes it actually might. Decrease anxiety, at least in the short term, for neurodivergent and, in particular, autistic nervous systems, though, I don't have a study on that. Right? But, um, anecdotally having worked with a lot of autistic folks, I think there might be some truth to that. Um, especially in a world where everything else can be so anxiety-provoking, right? That's something that is predictable. At least it's a form.

It probably is a form of dissociation, but it's a form of escape from an environment that really might be too much or overwhelming. So if I do think about, you know, public schools are not, we don't think are inherently as too much or as overwhelming for neurotypical kids, right? So for a lot of neurotypical kids, You probably can, You know, if You were to take care of the addiction stuff, if You were to get Yourself to put down Your phone and turn to a peer, You actually really might find just about as much. You know, stimulation and regulation in that sort of interaction. Whereas for some autistic kids, That might actually not be true, right? Many of the options available to You in a public school might on certain days be likely to increase your level of stress.

And sometimes screens might be one of the only things that an autistic kid can access in a school setting that can buffer just some of the constant stress and stealing of bandwidth that happens largely just due to a mismatch sometimes of the needs of an autistic nervous system and the way that public school is set up. But that's, I mean, that's a really tricky balance for me because I also do generally believe that less screens are better for all humans. And in particular, that less social media is better for all humans. So, you know, I think in general, other than that carve out, right, that there might be in particular certain autistic students who may not have another way to siphon off the overwhelm than doing some screen time to sort of get through the rest of their school day.

In general, I think I agree, almost no technology, unless it's specifically for education, very likely to be better in schools. And then outside of schools, you know, particularly in this neurodiversity affirming space that I work in a lot, you know, I take a lot of cues. We can drop a few names in the show notes today, but there is Ash Brandon, who is the gamer educator on Instagram. And they do a lot of really wonderful education about, okay, how can families not see screens as the enemy? How can families really be collaborative and respectful as far as what kids might be getting out of this that is positive? And how can adults find their authority and find their boundary setting within a collaborative and reasonable realm, taking into account that actually your kid might be getting a lot out of this?

Let's try to channel that in the healthiest way we can. And then in the realm of PDA, can be called Pathological Demand Avoidance, can also be called Pervasive Drive for Autonomy. You know, I also take some cues from Casey Ehrlich over at Peace Parents um, who you know, certainly will note that especially when a neurodivergent person has gone into what's called burnout right where we've really gone too far with the chronic overwhelm, we a little bit have to start from the beginning and build back; screens are kind of an important rest for a while for a neurodivergent person and burnout. But once again, both of those things are probably largely more home concerns than they are school concerns. Yeah, I totally agree with everything that you're saying.

And I will, I do think it's important for me to rethink the idea of like, would there be a student where an exception or a plan would be made for a plan for some access to technology? At a certain point during the day, I think that does make sense for me to rethink. Generally speaking, when I'm thinking outside of school, I think there's actually a lot of especially teenagers or preteens who are very isolated for a number of reasons. Oh, yeah. I think you could be a trans person who does not feel that they have community or. You know, you could be gay. You could just feel like you don't have friends at your school and that's incredibly hard to go to middle and high school when you don't feel like you have friends.

So, a community on social media for anybody who is socially isolated for any in any way can be incredibly important if not life-saving and I think access to that on a daily basis is probably not only healthy but maybe like as as long as that community is a safe community for that person and yeah then I think it's it's really important. I also think that video gaming can be a fun hobby and and there's not really any research that says that the gaming itself is actually like harmful. I think, yeah, what's harmful is when that is the only hobby and it's hours and hours a day and there isn't a balance with it starts to interfere with sleep. Yes. Eating with family connection and with other forms of socialization. Yes.

I actually don't have negative feelings about video gaming. I don't like some of the content on some of the games specifically. That might be more of a personal like opinion I'm not sure like professionally I probably also don't love like young kids playing on games that are rated mature, I know with that um but it's I think gaming is a fun hobby and a lot of people connect on that hobby, there are actually now there's research that shows that you develop some skills through yeah problem solving small motor yeah um dexterity things like that so it's not really the It's not the video gaming and when the social media is positive and healthy and connecting, it's not the social media. It's the imbalance of other activities. Yeah.

From a very young age, when you're starting to introduce access to any technology, you're starting to talk about healthy habits, families are modeling that, um, you know if you played the Monopoly board game eight hours every day, it would probably be a problem, right? So that's kind of how I look at it now and that has evolved over time. Yeah, I think that when you have um when you are an ADHD or you might feel like, finally, I have something that I'm really good at, which is like gaming online with friends. And so obviously I'm going to want to do that more. It's also less effortful to focus attention on video games when you have an ADHD brain. Oh yeah. The hyper-focus loves to go there. Yeah. Sure.

And so I think it's like a relief; an activity that you feel confident, successful, admired even, and it's not as exhausting. And so of course, that's all you'd want to do. And there has to be the ability to say, you know, there's like a time in your daily routine or weekly routine where that starts and ends, and include the person in that process of establishing those goals and maintaining those goals. I just, I think it is. I don't think that a lot of people, and I think there's some adults in this category too; you lose track of time. Like, even if you're just scrolling, you're watching videos, like lots of videos. I have kids I talk to that tell me they look up and it's 2am and they've just been watching videos one after the other going down these like holes.

And maybe the videos aren't even like, they're just like silly, funny videos and they're making them happy and laugh. So the videos themselves are probably fine, but it's like. It's the time sink. No. And I, yeah, I mean, I have an ADHD brain and even as an adult, man, I have to, it is, I will sometimes blink and it's like, I'm sorry, I've been staring at this for 40 minutes. Like, I did not set out to take a four-zero minute break right now. Like it is so hard. You're absolutely right. Right. And, and I think that it's, so it's like a hobby that is in and of itself. Probably not bad for us there's

a whole social media element of like bullying you know cyber yeah unkindness and insecurity and the messages that teenagers get like thousands of times a day now and there's all there that whole conversation I agree with for for sure so we just need to be involved we need to know what kids are accessing and and we we need to partner with them to set healthy habits and be willing to set boundaries and parameters. And I am, I am really worried. I'm worried about, I don't, I have found myself having to talk to groups of kids and teachers multiple times about learning how to wait. Oh, for sure. Oh, wow. Half of my career, I never once talked about teaching groups of children how to wait. For a few minutes. As a skill.

Yes. Yep. It's not a skill that they teach, that they learn through life. No. And I imagine a lot of listeners already know this, but yeah, I mean, just the way that material is presented on phones, right? It trains the human brain toward impulsivity. Right. Right. It trains us toward not staying on one thing. And it rewards us with a lot of dopamine for that, right? And so, yeah, I think our children's brains, yeah, someone else is actively training them not to wait. So I'm not surprised that we're now in more naturalistic position to actively train what would seem to be a pretty natural skill otherwise. Right. On the American Pediatric Association website, we can link this in the show notes. Oh, yeah. thing called a family media plan, oh great, yeah!

Interactive device you can go on and you can make a media plan for the whole family, or you can also make a media plan like you might have, like, a six-year-old and a 16-year-old in the home, and so you can make a plan for each individual person or the whole family. And um, and then you can update it. So, a successful um school-wide initiative was to introduce that concept at open house or parent-teacher conferences. Then the PTA got a bunch of games, decks of cards, art supplies, and projects, and every child that brought in a family media plan so my family made the plan; they could pick something from the pile, which is the sort of what else you would do. Yeah, what else you would do right!

And so, and, like, we were just asking them to make the plan, and then, you know, we're not involved in your business. Like, did you stick with the plan or follow the plan? It was just to get the kids to ask their parents to make the plan. And that would create a conversation that was very huge. That's a brilliant intervention, I think. Yeah, not my idea, but but really, really great community effort on that part. It also makes me think about, you know, not only the need to teach kids to wait, but also the need to teach kids to be bored. Right. Because that's what I often will see at home with my own kid too, it's like there is an unplugging. It's often because screens are so reinforcing, right?

And I try to do my best and I try to keep my kid on limits. And so then when it's time to really be like, okay, it's time to stop. You and I might've talked about this before, maybe about other kids, but I do see sort of a; it's. it's jarring for his system to shift from sort of the soothing dopamine of screen to, you know, the more effort of figuring out what you're going to do just sort of in the regular old material realm. But, and I think some of that is the pain of being bored, right? So what I'll often hear is like, no, this is horrible, but I'm bored, but I'm bored. And I also do want to say that there is some research that for ADHD brains, boredom does register more like physical pain than it does for other brains.

And yet. right boredom is the pathway to ideas boredom is the pathway to creativity like we do have to learn to tolerate being bored because our greatest human potential is on the other side of it right and so the more we can give adults the adults that faith and the tools to support kids through kind of that withdrawal effect of of the pain of boredom right and even develop some language like If my kid complains of being bored in that moment, I'll be like, I know it feels awful, but that's actually great news because your best ideas are on the other side of being bored. And he'll always be like, I don't have any ideas right now. And then it's always like 30 seconds. And then he is off doing something and he forgot.

So also adult solidarity around being able to tolerate children's distress when they experience boredom. Which social media is also training them out of being able to tolerate. Right. Yeah. One of my favorite suggestions for middle high school teachers and parents of that age group, that adolescent age group, is to talk about the idea of not doing things, not multitasking. Your working memory, if you're learning something new or you're completing a task, you're cooking a recipe, you're doing some homework, you're, you know, doing whatever, you have information in your working memory, which is your brain's mental surface. And if you then like respond to a text or check a Snapchat or look at Instagram, it wipes everything out of your working memory. And then you turn back to the task and you have to load it all up again.

And it's really cognitively exhausting. So it's not necessarily that you can't do those things, but you would be really great if you could do 20 minutes focused homework, 10 minutes social media or videos, 20 minutes focus, just like don't do both at the same time. Actually, you will be more efficient. You will learn better. You will be less exhausted. Your brain will. function better and so trial training like like you know learning that way there's a great video called what the internet is doing to your brain which is a cartoon it's really funny we'll put that in the show notes too this is going to be a loaded up show notes it shows like a cartoon image of like you respond to the email and your working memory gets wiped and then you know so it's a great it's a great cartoon and like basically it's like it's not that you can't do these things and they're bad for you.

It's like, how are you accessing that? And, and, and what would be the pattern and the habits that would allow you to enjoy the things that you're doing? You're, you're irritable. I mean, I know if I'm scrolling and somebody in my family says something to me, I'm a little bit grumpy in my response because I'm trying to adjust out of like a dissociative state. Yes. Yes. Great point. Not good. I don't want that. Right. But if I'm, Watching TV or reading and somebody asked me a question, I'm not grumpy in my response because it's not as-Immersive. You haven't been seven leagues under your phone. Yeah. That's a really good point. I'm just going to go plug it in and put it away and find something that I can do, like a puzzle or a book.

You know, that I'm, that is not so dissociative. Yeah. Not so absorbing. I think that's really the key too. And this is so hard is adults being so diligent in modeling this themselves. Right. So also we're going to have our own physical pain response with boredom. That is going to be hard for us to break through because we've, you know, we haven't been trained from as young of an age, but our brains have been trained for a long time with this stuff too. And I'll, I'll find, you know, I'll find that with my kids sometimes that I'm. You know, being so firm with him about his screen time, but also I've been, you know, I'm on my phone all morning and yes, I know it's trying to figure out groceries and this or that or the other, but I'm still on my phone, you know?

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, so like if you're going to say, 'get off your phone', but then you're going to be on your phone, right? Like it doesn't work. Not cool. Yeah. Yeah, and I'm certainly not sitting here feeling like I can't work on this myself too. I absolutely need to improve my habits. I love/slash/ cringe every Sunday when you get the screen time. Oh my gosh. Same. I know. It's like, that's so much of my one precious life. Much time. Yeah, so yeah, so we just want to keep. I think conversations like this are kind of like when you're driving on the highway and you drift to the edge and there's like a rumble strip, yeah, rumble strip. So we just have to keep talking about it as a community, keep reminding ourselves and you hit the rumble strip and you correct and then you'll drift again. And so it's like none of us are perfect. It's hard because these things are designed to be so enticing, but it really matters. It really matters. I think that's a good note to end on. Yeah, absolutely. Thanks, Joelle. Yeah, thanks, Jillian. Thanks, everybody. We'll see you next time on Stance of Curiosity.

Thank you for listening to another episode of Stance of Curiosity. Stance of Curiosity is an unscripted conversation between Gillian Boudreau and Joelle Van Lent. While both are licensed psychologists, this podcast is provided for informational and educational purposes only. The content presented should not be considered a substitute for professional, psychological, medical, or mental health advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Listeners should always consult with a qualified mental health professional whenever needed for specific concerns or questions related to their personal situation. Stance of Curiosity is produced by Gillian Boudreau and Joelle van Lent. Our cover art is by Aaron Lanou, and our music is upbeat indie folk by Twin Music. See you next time.