Who's Afraid of What? What to do when team interactions get dicey

Gilian shares her strategy of processing adult interactions that don’t go as expected, including at times conflict and defensiveness.  Stepping back to consider how fear may be inspiring our responses and re-approaching the interactions with some perspective and curiosity can be very helpful.  Joelle and Gillian share some of their key strategies that may help when stress and fear are taking over-

Who is afraid of what? 

Slow down and back up

Share the worry

Get consultation from a trusted source

Visualize the situation as a contingency map - what is the goal and is there a different path? 

https://autismclassroomresources.com/contingency-maps-for-behavior-proble/

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Transcript

Speaker: 0:27

Welcome back to A Stance of Curiosity. I'm Gillian Boudreau. And I'm Joelle Van Lent. And here we are wrapping up season two already with this final episode. We are, and while we will release this in June, we're recording it in May. So we're pretty close to that. Sometimes I call it the landing of the plane feeling in between April break and the end of the school year. You know, we're, we're feeling it with you in this moment, even if it is still at this current time of recording May and June. But it's been a wonderful experience. I just really want to thank all of our listeners for sticking with us through two seasons in one school year. And just the helpful feedback we've gotten throughout, and just knowing that we're part of the lovely community of educators trying to figure this stuff out. Yeah, I have especially liked the two guests that we've had that are in different parts of the country from both of us. And I've gotten a little bit of feedback that people feel like talking to other people who work in our field in other parts of the country has been really like reassuring and helpful. Like there's. There's like-minded, hardworking people across this country right now. So I think we should try to continue that in season three. That makes a ton of sense. We will have more guests in Season three. Yes. If any beloved listeners would like to be a guest, you can feel free to reach out to us and let us know. Great idea. Okay. Well, so we're thinking about landing the plane, right? And so when I am consulting with school teams right now, I remember so well how the cart can really start to, I mean, I'm mixing my transportation metaphors. We're trying to land the plane, but also the cart can really come off of the road this time of year. So for example, sometimes I'll consult with school counselors. Who will sort who might be um worried that like risk assessment protocols are not being followed in the same way right which is sometimes their purview or things they're kind of responsible for um you know oftentimes I have heard you know classroom teachers understandably frustrated that you know we thought we figured out this protocol for xyz thing mostly adult to adult you know and but here we are at the end of the year and people aren't doing it and I think that we can all get exhausted and get thrown into chaos a little bit. So I'm noticing really at the end of this year that it's some of the team dynamics, some of the adult to adult stuff that's getting a little, just a little bit more chaotic and slightly more fractured. Which is not surprising. One other metaphor I use for the end of the year is that it's like, we're still in the hurtling race. But at this point, you know, we're kind of just like sometimes running straight through some hurdles. Some hurdles are getting crashed through because folks just are totally out of energy. And then chaos can ensue. So when I'm supporting teams where some chaos is ensuing, I always play this mental game with myself that I've named 'Who's Afraid of What'. So, I take the idea that everyone who I'm meeting with is a really hardworking, really talented, really well-meaning educator. And also sometimes in this time of year on teams, I can notice even amongst the adults, you know, maybe a bit more refusal behavior or a bit more reactivity or, you know, people just really getting to the end of their rope. And it's helpful, you know, rather than getting frustrated myself or, you know, rather than taking a side on or piling on to the very dynamics of the teams I might be trying to help. Remembering that everyone's doing the best they can. Everyone's behavior is a communication. And my lens tends to tell me that a lot of challenging behaviors are related to fear. If I can start to think about okay, who's afraid of what, then we can find sort of an affirming and collaborative way to unwind some of the problems rather than just getting mad at each other. So, you know, one example that I have. And educators are probably going to laugh at me because when I did start in the Vermont schools, I was straight out of psychiatric hospitals and I truly did not know how schools worked yet. So thank you all for the patience of those who are with me in 2010 and 2011. But, you know, in psychiatric inpatient facilities, their crisis protocols is basically a lot of what we're doing. That's a lot of almost what we're there to do in a way. Um, so there doesn't tend to be a lot of pushback on the crisis protocols themselves and you know for example, you know having a walkie or a pager or a way to get in touch with the rest of the team um is just like kind of just of course you do that right so I remember as a naive school psychologist supporting um a lot of kids who might have needed a crisis protocol. I remember in one early team meeting um an educator was saying that they didn't use walkie talkies in their classroom. And walkie-talkies were a big part of like the, you know, crisis protocol that at that point really had just been handed down to me from the people whose shoulders I was standing on in the school district I was in. And I remember I accidentally started a conflict, which I really didn't mean to. I had a genuine question, which was, oh, is there something different about this classroom? I was like, do the, I probably said something like, do the walkies not work in here? Because in the other classrooms we do walkies, it sounds like we're going to need to do something differently in here, which was read understandably as a very sassy statement. Oh, we've got a snarky New York psychologist. Right. And I was, I was already not popular when I first got there. I wasn't doing myself any favors. But, you know, because I really wasn't just like, okay, I don't - there must be- I went too quickly to, there must be a reason why this person isn't willing to use a walkie talkie. You forgot Aaron's social humility. I forgot Aaron's social humility. That's right. Which people will know from the penultimate thing. So I, I really forgot that somebody might not just assume that a walkie talkie was part and parcel of what they were doing all day. Because it had just been part and parcel of what I had been doing all day in the hospital. Right. And so I forgot to stop and be like, oh, is this person not comfortable with a walkie? Instead, I jumped right to, oh, there must be some issue with this room that, you know, walkies don't work. And of course then things didn't go well and we had to really unpack it. So that was where I first learned to play the who's afraid of what game, right? When we finally rolled it all the way back, because it turned out that, yeah, this person had a lot of very understandable fears about using a walkie that I later learned most educators do, right? We're here to teach. We didn't sign up to work in a psychiatric inpatient facility and, you know, crisis protocols and walkies. Are often out of you know, out of many people's comfort zones um, so that's one that I, you know, if I'd started with you know who's afraid of what could this be a fear response can we either help this person feel more comfortable with the walkie and/ or figure out another option that wouldn't trip their fear would have been better off right? Um, and then I have another example right which is that uh, sometimes fear can really travel through teams kind of like wildfire. So in particular, and we work with so many wonderful administrators, right? And I think that administrators are usually working very hard not to stress educators out. However, if we, for example, get an educator, get an administrator who is, let's say, oftentimes the fear is like getting in trouble, right? So we have an administrator who's afraid of getting in trouble with who knows who it is, right? Maybe it's the school board. Maybe it's the community at large. Maybe it's parents. They might get more rigid and less collaborative and more pushy with an educator, right? An educator might then, their fear might go up because they're now being treated more rigidly, more evaluatively. They might start to feel much more at risk of getting in trouble with this administrator who has a lot of say over how their life goes. Educators might then turn around and find themselves being more punitive or controlling, or a little bit desperate, in their interactions with kids whose behavior is often outside the plan of the classroom, right? Because now it feels like, oh no, this kid is going to get me in trouble with this administrator. And, you know, the administrator is like, oh no, if this educator can't get this kid under control, then I'm going to get in trouble with the people above me. And it can really become a wildfire of rigidity and urgency and everybody getting scared at the same time, which as we know, ironically will always make student behavior worse. Um, so if we can figure out who's afraid of what, and if we can compassionately address those fears, then instead of sort of a, you know, a log flume of fear, dumping and landing on vulnerable kids, causing them to erupt with more behaviors, we actually can end up in a contagion of calm and collaboration and connectivity, which goes in the opposite direction of the emotional wagon wheel, right? Causing everybody in the system to function better. So in your first example with the walking, I thought you were also going to say what you were afraid of. Were you afraid that if the safety protocol wasn't followed, that you wouldn't be doing your job? Yes. Great. What was your fear in that? That is such a great point. Yes. And I don't think I was thinking about that at the time. So I was straight up terrified. That year. So I had come from out of state, I had come from a clinical program that did have a school psych, like endorsement. And I was essentially in a school for the first time, asking, being asked to develop a program that hadn't existed before and run it. So it felt to me as though I was, I personally was immediately going to get fired. or worse because the situation felt quite untenable. Yeah. So I was really clinging at the beginning of that. It got a lot better. I was really clinging to some behavior plans that very generous special educators had written before I'd gotten there. All of which had clear crisis protocols that included walkies. So yes, I think I, I, I was sort of just, and I genuinely wasn't trying to be sassy with this teacher, but I, but I think I was fearfully jumping to, oh no, sounds like you're telling me we can't use the one protocol we have. We have to fix this today because someone's going to get hurt or I'm going to get fired today. That means I I'm, I'm sure is where my head was. I was frantic. Yeah. So, I have two thoughts about that. One is just like a global observation. I wonder how, like in my first week of work as a psychologist out of graduate school, I got a job. I left before graduation. I didn't even go to ceremony. I came back to Vermont and I'm in the first week of the job that I got, which I was so excited about. And then I realized in about 30 minutes that I had never done any of the things that were part of my job. It's horrifying. And we should point out that you and I both have degrees that took us years to get. So long. And that included a lot of clinical. Work, oh yeah, no, we are well-trained; we have been in so many, yeah, clinical settings, yeah, and just really like so much good training; just years of degree, well-trained people enthusiastic. And then, week one, we're in a job where none, none of the things that we're asked to do have we ever done before, no, so that's a bit of a mind um shift to begin with. I wonder, like I bet that that must be the case for a lot of professionals, like school counselors and teachers and administrators. I bet even though we have experience in these settings, that when we're first in the job, it's like, oh, okay, whoops, I guess I didn't learn anything about how to do this. So then I'm also thinking. So now it’s been 20, almost 26 years since I graduated from graduate school and started. And I still, as recently as today was in a situation where everyone’s looking at me and they’re like, ‘We’re so looking forward to how you’re going to sort all this out and explain that to us.’ And what I’m thinking in my brain is, ‘Me too.’ I can’t wait to see what I come up with. Yeah, this feels really hard. And I’m not sure I’ve ever quite seen, you know, aspects of this before. And so like, that’s, I guess, part of what makes these jobs interesting, but also keeps you like potentially on the edge of terror. So that’s one observation from what you just said. The other is, I am wondering if like if so you're in that moment where are you still there? I am still here. Sorry, just continue my listeners. My camera has gone weird; we'll get it fixed, okay? Just wanted to make sure, okay. Technical moment, which doesn't matter on a podcast, that's right. So um, okay. So let's go back to you in the walkie situation. So you react accidentally in a snarky way, and then the teacher reacts to that. So I'm thinking most of the time when these kinds of things happen, where we play 'Who's Afraid of What', sometimes we're going to catch it real-time and shift it midstream. Lots of times we're going to walk away and later be like, oh, wait a minute. That was a total miss. So you go back to the teacher and you say, 'Do you start potentially with what you were afraid of? Like, I don't think I handled that well. And I think I might have started my response was informed by what my worries are, not really listening and understanding with what you were saying. And does that then often invite the other person to mirror what you just did and share what their worries are? Yes. I think it took me a minute to get there, but I think we did end up doing something like that because years later, I ended up with a good relationship with that educator. So when you actually play who's afraid of what, if we're recommending this as something that people do to try to improve their colleague interaction, you want to go back and not say, I think what you were afraid of is that. We're starting with what we were afraid of, hoping that they might think for a minute about what was driving their negative responses? Yes, I think so. Yes. So yes. So I think eventually that's exactly right. We should not start by identifying what we think the other person is afraid of, right? We should really start by identifying what we're afraid of. But in your mind, if you do that, you're likely to shift to a more compassionate, less defensive place. Yeah, that's the key. So in your mind, try to figure out what this person might be afraid of. So that you can imagine them, because I think they really are, right? Acting out of fear rather than just, you know, aggression or whatever it is. But focus verbally on going first, right? And naming what you're afraid of. So, right. So I might've, hopefully I did say out loud, Joelle, probably something similar to what I just said to you, right? Which was, oh my gosh, you may already know I'm very new and I'm just working off of. these this one crisis protocol and it has a walkie in it and so when you told me you weren't willing to use the walkie I think I had a brief moment of panic because I wasn't sure what else we were going to do because I only I'm still really figuring out the system and what even the other options would be yeah um so you know so I and and hopefully that would have invited you know and then maybe I would have gone one step further to say I'm I'm I do now understand that walkies do work in this room. And I also know that there must be another good reason why you would refuse to use them. Can you help me understand what that is so that we can think of something else we can do? I think probably would have been the way I would invite their fears. I would sort of say some version of, 'I trust that what you're doing makes perfect sense.' Can you help me understand the rationale behind it so that we can figure out a good solution right? So like the interaction, the clunky interaction happens and then you walk away feeling confused maybe even frustrated, yes, right? And then the first thing you could ask yourself is who's afraid of what and play that game like all the people involved, including yourself, like you try to go around and guess what they might have been afraid of. That hopefully is going to shift your stance to more compassionate, open your mind to like possibility. It doesn't really matter if you get it right; it matters that you're trying to do a perspective-taking exercise, right? Of like what could have been driving my behavior and other people's behavior, and then you go back with with that curiosity yeah um and question and owning your part and wondering what their part might be. Um, I think that when we're able to do that, it's vulnerable. It's a bit of a risk, right? You're going to walk back in, especially like if, if we put ourselves in your position and that you are new and you're probably trying to convince people that you do in fact, know what you're doing or will, or will figure out what you're doing and that you have valuable things to offer for sure. You had a lot of valuable things to offer. Even if the main thing that you had to offer is that you were going to work hard to figure it out, but then it turns out you had all these relevant skills like and that's what I felt like I was in a job that I didn't know how to do, but turns out I had all these relevant skills that had come from my training and who I was as a person, so you're walking back in vulnerable and you're saying this is what I was afraid of, like and and then you just leave that there. And then what if the person, what if the person doesn't do what we're in this, in this scenario, I'm imagining a lovely interaction where everybody owns their fear with beautiful insight. And we all like move on together happily. What like, cause in a, in a stress system, the other person might be okay. Well, it was a dumb. It was a dumb suggestion to think that you would use a walkie-talkie, hopefully you'll get it together; something like so now we're still so now what do you do now? You're still playing the game, like I wonder what this person's afraid of, yeah. If so, if they would say well, yeah, I mean, I guess now I'm getting a little bit too in the weeds. But I, cause I, cause it was, you know, if I think back to that time, it's, it's, although I guess this happens all the time in classrooms. Okay. I'm coming from a place of like a lot of examples as I'm in many, many schools. I'm coming from a place with my question to you of people who are very good people, very talented and skilled, not being their best selves. Yes. So. This, I think that the strategy that you're offering could be very helpful to shift something that is spiraling out between two colleagues. And so I'm trying to think about like, what if it didn't resolve so easily? What if, and you can pick a different scenario if you want, but like, what if, what if we're not being our best selves? How, what do we do? Yes. What do we do? I mean, I guess that's where, we might go to, Joelle, I really like your term, like share the worry. Yeah. And this is, oh man, this is tricky. Boy, this was a hard moment. But I think, you know, if I was in a position of, okay, well, my job is to get a crisis protocol in place. And the school-wide plan is that what we do for that is walkies, right? And then the other person said, well, you're going to have to think of another plan because I'm not using a walkie, right? I think what I then would have done would have been to go to my supervisor, not to, not to like tell on this person, but sort of just to be like, okay, you're, so you're the person who's given me the directive to make sure everybody, all these kids are in classrooms where teachers are using a walkie. Some of the teachers are not willing to use the walkie. You know, what could I think I probably would go to a share my worry to see, what some other plans might be. You know, I think I might say, is there any spring room on this walkie thing? Right. Like, cause in that moment I was, because I was so new, I was a bit of like a middle person in a way. Right. So I was sort of like, I don't even know how much I personally care if they use a walkie. That's just what I was told to ask them to do. Let, let me go back. Let me get a better understanding of what the options are and what the rationale is behind all of these options. Then I, then I can go back to this person with a clear sense of like, all right, now I actually can use what I was hired for, which is my clinical expertise. To now let's really talk about these options. Let's talk about what, how I think each of them are going to benefit you as far as being an educator who wants to get through your day without a big clinical issue. But I think I would first share the worry. Yeah. I like that. And as you were talking, I was almost imagining that you could use a contingency map for yourself that we would often use for students. So the contingency map is basically the way I use it, which I think might be a little bit different from how it was originally designed. Like what I will do is like first figure out like what the person's goal was or what they need. Yes. And then I back up to the behavior sequence that they exhibited to get that goal or need met, and then ask them, like, did that, well, first of all, did it work? And then if it did work, is there, if there were any problems with that behavioral sequence? Is there another behavioral sequence that would get your need met or help you meet your goal? Nice. Or if it didn't work, then that's easy. We need to find a path that will work as long as the goal is something that we can sign on to, which almost always it is. So maybe we could put something like that in the show notes. It also reminds me of like a behavioral chain analysis from CBT. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Maybe that's actually what I'm thinking. I think I took the contingency map concept and made it into. What did you just say? Behavior chain analysis. Yeah, behavior chain. I think I made it that, and then realized that it also exists. So anyway, amazing. So I'm wondering like you, you're talking with, because like in stress, we can get rigid, right? So you could get very rigid about the walkie. So you went to a neutral third party, not totally neutral. You went to a third party to advise you and say, The goal is that the student is safe, not that everyone uses walkies. Precisely. Right. So help me back up and see if that's not the behavior sequence that's going to result in our goal. What are the other paths that you can see? Because I'm feeling in it and stuck and I can only, I only know of one path because I'm new here or I can't see another one because I'm, I'm like stressed or wedded to this plan. Help me see another one. And then you can, if there is an easy answer, great. You can go back and say, awesome. We don't need walkies. Here's the path toward the goal. And I think a lot of the strategies that we use for stress students, we can use for ourselves. Even I imagine you being able to just step back for a moment and be like, what is the goal? And walkie is a means to an end, not the end. Right. Because in interpersonal stuff, it's also really important to remember that the goal is not to win. Right. Right. The goal is not to like make this person who's a walkie, even though, because we are, you know, people with survival brains that can sometimes feel like that if somebody, you know, challenges us and there's a lot of that going around at the end of the year. Yeah. And. When what like what does winning or success mean? It means that the students get their needs met, and that the adults also get their needs met. And I feel like in the past five years since COVID, but honestly this year a lot, there's been tension between it feels like we're choosing between the kids versus the adults, and I just don't-I don't like that at all. It's like The goal is that we have a community of care where everyone's needs are met, and we're paying attention to how our practices and policies impact everyone. And if it's not working for someone, that we slow down and notice how are you impacted by this, and then how could we change it to. To support that and I don't in my day-to-day life ever feel like I'm choosing between, oh, I have to write a recommendation that's either going to support the student or the adults, who am I gonna, you know, uh, like leave short on this? No, I feel like there's always a way to meet everyone's needs. Um, but I don't know that the adults or the kids always feel like their needs are equally valued or held of equal importance. Yeah, that's such a great point. I think the same as you, like I know that a recommendation is the right one if there's a way that it can serve not only the kids, but also the adults. Though I will say that in the actual situation of public schooling, sometimes I can think of a recommendation that would serve both kids and adults, but wouldn't serve the budget because usually if it's going to serve both the kids and the adults, it's going to require some extra resources. Yeah. Yep. Right. It probably will not serve the budget or the schedule. Yeah. And whatever adults are in charge of the budget or the schedule may be personally impacted and may be really stressed out by recommendations that otherwise do serve adults and kids. Yeah, I think that the reason that we have jobs is because you can't do something as complex as create a school community without consultants that aren't in the trenches with you. Like, we live on the outside of that and we are visitors and guests and we can look around and see things and wonder, ask good questions, some of which are wrong, but we are supposed to ask questions and open up thinking, right? It's like, is the schedule the most important thing here? And is there a way to actually let go of that to make things work differently? Or, you know, does it have to, to be walkies or or you know I think that that's our role and it sometimes can be uncomfortable but if you're in the trenches and you're reacting to things who's afraid of what is a great way for you to try to step like back I guess yes and kind of look at what's going on right now with Empathy for yourself, empathy for others. Yes. I remember. Like this isn't going in the right direction, what we're doing right now. Yeah. I remember developing it in a lot of moments where I was definitely full-time in the schools. And I remember having had a moment to go back to my desk, which I was very privileged to have. So I kind of remember like fast heartbeat in the chest. Maybe you have like three minutes at a desk before you have to like go and be on again. And it was a way to be like, okay, for me, it was usually a mix of anger or fear. I do feel really spun up. I feel afraid of losing my job and also mad at this other person. Okay, who's afraid of what, you know, and then I could usually cover mine by being like, I'm afraid of getting fired and being made a fool of. Yep. Those are always the two. All right. I'm also afraid of something dangerous happening. Okay, great. Now we've got that off the table, right? Like who else? And it does, it really does give a good prompt to zoom out and look at it strategically, even when you're still upset. And I think that, in that moment, reminding yourself that in a public school or probably a lot of outpatient mental health settings and community settings, things are not as urgent as they might feel. Yes. We usually have more time. To think about these things and talk about these things and sort things out than it feels like we have. So back to urgency again, which is such a big intruder on our success in so many different ways, human-to-human interaction, urgency, unless there is an actual emergency, urgency just gets in the way, right? Like this isn't 911. And so we have time to slow this down and think about this. And in that walkie example, right? I was moving from a fear that, well, if we don't use a walkie today, you know, something catastrophic is going to happen today and we're going to have no recourse, right? Whereas, you know, had I been able to access more wisdom instead of basically reacting, what do you mean I'm not going to use a walkie, right? Yeah. I could have been like, oh, interesting. You don't use walkies in here. Okay. Well, let me think about that. You know, knowing that we, we probably do have a day at least right to, especially if what I'm now learning is maybe this person hasn't been using a walkie this whole two weeks I've been here. Right. Then I think we've identified that it's unlikely to cause a catastrophe in the next four hours and I can chill out a little bit and think it through. Right. So urgency really is, um, urgency is directly anti-team collaboration. Right. Yeah. And I keep thinking, I keep thinking ever since we talked with Aaron in the last episode about Carol Gray's social humility, like the two concepts that we dove into, it's been really at the top of mind for me since we had that conversation. And I'm thinking about just like, oh, I didn't expect you to say that you didn't use walkies. And then the idea that this isn't going well and that we're equally responsible for that. It's not your way is the right way and the teacher's way is the wrong way or vice versa. It's like, oh, okay, I didn't expect that. Can you explain that to me a little bit more? And then take equal responsibility for the derailment of that interaction, right? Like that's some of what I took away from that social humility stance, be confused with good, with a good attitude. I'm confused. Help me understand. Yeah. Yes, yes, right! Be confused with a good attitude, like, you know, be honest that you're surprised while very quickly being like, 'Oh, we're in unexpected territory here.' That means I need to turn up the curiosity because I'm sure I'm missing something. Maybe that will invite the other person to turn up their curiosity as well. If there is an impasse, that usually just means we're both missing something. Right. Right! I think I need more information. Yeah. Like that kind of thing. Yeah. So I'm wondering if you're thinking of an example with a school professional and a parent. So you, I don't really have an example in mind. I'm making it up as I go, but it's sort of like you have an interaction where you're talking about some things that you feel like need to happen in a certain order, a certain way. And the parent is getting really sort of demanding and insistent that things happen in another way. Um, and so you're in the midst of that and pausing and saying, 'Who's afraid of what feels like it would help you see? I'm starting to get stressed because I'm afraid that this parent isn't going to let me do this the way I'm supposed to, or the way that it needs to, or even the way that's legally, I'm legally bound to. Yep.' And then I'm imagining the parents afraid that, like, their kid isn't going to get what they need or that the process is going to be intrusive or uncomfortable or that, you know, they're not going to be in control, which as parents, we often feel like losing control feels like an immediate red flag. Yes. So if you, I think the trick is that if I immediately made a statement about what I thought the parent was afraid of, they might get more defensive, right? So that's in my mind, I'm answering that. But what's coming out of my mouth is either a curious question to understand better, or I'm reflecting on what my intention or goal is. If I imagine that behavior sequence, it's like, okay, let me. let go of my process and just tell the parent what my goal is. Yep. I think that's right. It also reminds me of like, you know, sometimes with kids, we'll talk about shifting from you need it to I need language. So sometimes we'll call that urgency, accountable communication. And I think you can also use urgency, accountable communication in that situation with a parent. Right. So, yeah. So if, if I am like, you know, So yeah, so if I'm exactly what you're saying, if I'm like, okay, so we're going to have to, you know, oh, you know what? Great example. What if we are thinking that a kid needs services and parents are resistant to having them evaluated? That's something that you and I deal with all the time, right? So, you know, this is just a very concrete one, but if it's like, okay, so this is going to be great. We're going to do this evaluation. And then after that, we'll be able to get your kid all these wonderful services, right? And if the parent is like, no, you just need to be able to give them the services without the evaluation, right? That will throw me into a bit of an urgent space because I will really want this kid to get the services. I will really want this kid to be able to stay in their neighborhood school, right? And I'll sort of be going through in my mind all the behavioral things that could happen if they don't get these services and all the places they get land. And the parent will start to feel like just a barrier to me, right, to kind of getting my need met, which is to do what I think the kid needs. So perhaps a you need thing would be like, well, you need to consent to this evaluation because that's the only path to getting them the services, right? Which isn't going to go well. Also, to be like, oh, you're probably just afraid of your kid getting labeled, but it's much more important that they get the services. Also not going to be a helpful thing. But perhaps I could say, okay, so you're saying no to the evaluation. I'm hearing that now my mind is going to try thinking about how else we're going to get this kid services in this flawed system where you sometimes do need a diagnosis to unlock services, because what I'm seeing clinically is that I really want to keep them here. And I can see a lot of paths by which they might not be able to stay if they don't get these supports. Yeah. Right. So that's also a shrinky tool called mentalization. Which is basically if you get into a tough spot with a client, finding ways just to kind of speak for where your own head is at can be both soothing for you and also can build trust with the other person who's like, 'Oh, now this person is showing their hand. They're actually just telling me what they're thinking.' Already now we've put more collaboration and vulnerability and trust into the room. Right? You also shifted the problem, so to speak, away from the parent or yourself, and you shifted the problem to be an external entity that you and the parent can then align against or together toward, right? So it's like, okay, so we both have the same goal that your student, your child gets services. I was explaining to you what I know to be the typical path. You're letting me know that that path does not sound acceptable to you. So because the system that I work in is kind of rigid, I don't have another quick, quickly accessible idea for how to get there. But we still have the same shared goal. And my job is to help you navigate a quite rigid system. So I am going to have to get back to you on what another path might be because you know what? I can't think of another one right now, but that doesn't mean that one doesn't exist. So let me do that. And then let's do a part two for this conversation, which is also a way for you to end an interaction that's not successful while saying, I heard you. And the problem is the system that we're both working with, not you or me. That's right. And then you have a chance to step away and share the worry, right? Then you get to consult with other folks. You're not alone with this. Just to be like, literally, would there be any other way to get them services if they don't do this? Or is there any middle path? And at least then you're coming back in really confident that you have well-sourced information and that you have. You have folks who are, you know, with you in this difficult situation, yeah? So the strategies, if, if you're in an interaction adult-to-adult yes, and it's not going well, you can play 'Who's Afraid of What'? Yep? So the first step is yeah, you can play 'Who's Afraid of What'! We're going to put some kind of contingency map or behavioral chain analysis in the show notes, right? So that you can know how to pretty quickly figure out what your goal is and where you're feeling kind of thwarted or worried by the situation at hand, right? So I want to get this kid services. I'm afraid that if you don't allow them to get evaluated, I'm not going to get them services, right? Or I'm trying to make sure I don't get fired and no kids fly out the window today. Both of which, because I'm frantic, feel like very possible things that could happen. And now you, educator, who I'm just getting to know, you're really freaking me out because you're refusing to do the one protocol that I've been given to make sure that I don't get fired and nobody flies out the window, right? So being able to kind of state your own location of self, right? Your own goal and your own fear in that moment can invite the other person, maybe. To instead of just being fighting with you, to remember what their goal is, perhaps even for bonus points state their own fear right. Although sometimes people are too upset to do that, and now you've got now, now maybe you've got a shared goal or at least you both know what your actual goal is and you can stop battling each other now it becomes sort of a collaborative problem-solving time, yeah great! And what I have learned, probably in inpatient residential work world that I apply all the time in life everywhere is when I'm interacting with somebody who seems afraid, I need to slow down and back up. Yeah. Because I think sometimes we. Match fear with fear or we match urgency with speed? Speed, right! It's like the lack of a fearful person is not going to be less afraid or reassured if you don't if you keep going quickly forward, it's like slow down and back up. Yeah, that's that. If there is a need for things to move forward quickly, it still is the most efficient way to move forward quickly is to slow down and back up. That's right. Yes, that's right. So once you even realize it's time to play the 'Who's Afraid of What' game, you already know the first thing you should do is slow down and back up. Right, right. Slow down and back up. Figure out your own goal and your own fear. State your own goal and your own fear. Yeah. See if you can, if the other person knows what their goal and fear is. Share the worry, share, then get get out of the situation. Share the worry, get some consult, come back, yep, yep, try again, yep, yeah, yeah, that's great. Hopefully, this was really important because I um, because I am not in the trenches; I am I always swoop in as a guest for a little while, swoop out, swoop back in. I see incredibly lovely people, um, you know just trying to figure out how to do tasks that sometimes seem a little bit impossible right now, and um, so I just want everybody to recognize that the way that we cope with that cannot be to turn on each other like we are all in this together, everybody is trying really hard, and um, that's not gonna help. Yeah. And also, this is a good time of year to come into some acceptance that just because it's almost the end of the year, it's still going to be impossible to do all the things. And we're just going to come back in the fall with undone things. It's so unsatisfying, but it is the way. Yeah. The goal of every school year is that you bring the humans that you have the privilege to work with forward as far as you can with the resources you have and the all of the complications that arise, and then you pass them on to the people receiving them, letting them know where you got. Yep, that's it. And whatever, all of the guides that we have on what we should do and in what order those things should happen and how far we should get, those are all guides that help us try to be, I guess, a bit consistent with each other or kind of have a map, a roadmap. But it doesn't mean that if we don't succeed, we don't get where on the map people said we should get at the speed and pace that we should have gotten. It doesn't mean that we at all succeeded like whoever made the map didn't know how many barriers or roadblocks or resources or other things you know, detours would come up and so that's right, yeah everybody I watch is bringing people forward as brilliantly as they can based on the situation. And we need to be really proud of that. And then just really honest with like, here's where I'm leaving off and you're taking it from here. That's exactly right. Yep. And the world is lucky to have you. You're using your life force to help others every single day. That's much different than what some folks can say. That's right. And I think in this time of this year that's been so tricky so far, I don't expect it's going to get much easier. 20,25 in this political landscape, I do take some peace every day in the idea that the work that we do in helping professions is activism. Oh, so much so. Yes, that really helps me too. That's really helpful. It's like, well, we don't have to search for purpose. We don't have to figure out. Our place in the fight for good, you know, like we're already handed that every day when we show up to work. Yeah. So to all of our listeners, thank you so much for how hard you're working. You are superheroes. That's right. Your professional time is incredibly valuable and whatever you did, it was enough. It was. And if you didn't want to wear a Walkie, that's okay. And I'm sorry that I suggested that it had to be because there was no radio signal in your classroom. It's so funny that that's what you responded with. It's truly out of my mind. That was a very tough fall. But knowing, knowing you as I do is sort of like, of course, that's what you thought. Oh, walkies don't work here. That's weird. Okay. Weird. Let me get you some batteries or something. I don't know. Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. Well, Joelle, thank you for a wonderful season. Y'all, we can't wait to come back in the fall and keep chatting. And may we all have a restorative summer in the meantime. All right. We'll see you in early September with Season Three. That's right. See you then. Bye. Bye. Thank you for listening to another episode of Stance of Curiosity. Listeners should always consult with a qualified mental health professional whenever needed for specific concerns or questions related to their personal situation. Stance of Curiosity is produced by Gillian Boudreau and Joelle Van Lent. Our cover art is by Aaron Lanou, and our music is upbeat indie folk by Twin Music. See you next time.