What Do We Do With All These Anxious Kids At School?

In today's episode Joelle and Gillian discuss the nature of childhood anxiety in general and how powerful it can be in creating physical symptoms and derailing learning.  Below is Joelle's amazing one-pager including all we discuss in this episode, and more!

Strategies for students who get stuck when feeling anxious.

Joelle van Lent, Psy.D.

1.) Externalize the anxiety and align with the child against the anxiety.
Ask the child to give anxiety a name and even draw a picture of what it would look like if it were visible. Then others can align with the child against anxiety. When anxiety causes conflict between the child and caring adults, it is winning. Anxiety can be disempowered when it is objectified and when adults emphasize that they are working as a team with the child to overcome the anxiety symptoms.

2.) Reinforce the strategies not the emotion. It is helpful to remember that emotions and anxiety do not follow logical rules and can be very irrational. The child does not have control over how they feel, yet they do have control over
how they cope. Incentives should focus on their willingness to try coping strategies, such as taking deep breaths instead of yelling, swearing, and suppressing the emotions. Success and praise should focus on the use of coping skills and not the central state of being calm or focused.

3.) “Strike while the iron is cold.” Talk about the possibility of an anxious or worried response when the child is calm and there is no sense of urgency. At those times, the child will be more able to plan for how they will be supported and what coping skills they will use.

4.) Schedule “worry time”.
Set a time each day to worry together. When worries come up at other times, write them down in a “parking lot” and come back to them during worry time. During worry time, parents can worry with the child for a set time (7-10 minutes) and then when the timer goes off use calming strategies and distraction techniques. During worry time, there is mostly expression of worries
and validation. Ask the child if they would like to problem solve during this time. After worry time, focus on distraction and soothing routines.

5.) Create visual task strips and schedules for daily tasks and routines.
Parents can give visual task strips or lists to help the child with follow directions when stress may disrupt processing, focus, and short-term memory. For example, write a list on a sticky note and hand it to the child while giving verbal directions. Teachers can do the same to reduce the demand on processing and short-term memory.

6.) Adults should keep their emotion calm to offer co-regulation.
Adults should work to keep their emotional stance calm and actively work to not match the child’s emotion. If adults escalate with the child, this will further dysregulate. The emotions may be irrational, but also real. Validate the emotion, let the child know the problem is in fact manageable, and model how to regulate emotions to match the “size of the problem”. When adults feel urgency to move through a transition, that urgency can further escalate. Therefore, not rushing and reminding oneself that it is OK to pause and regroup for a few minutes in most
situations.

7.) Communicate your belief that the child is capable by not lowering expectations. It is very important that parents and adults in school have not lowered expectations or allowed anxiety to change the rules, limits, and expectations. Children who experience anxiety often notice the secondary gain of anxiety even though it is not the original intention. They may sometimes experiment with those responses even when they are relatively calm, especially if
those responses elicit attenti

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Gillian: https://www.instagram.com/clearconnectionpsychology/

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Transcript

0:26

Hello, welcome back to Stance of Curiosity. I'm Gillian Boudreau, and I'm Joelle van Lent. Hi everyone! Hi everyone! Joelle, I'm so excited to talk with you about this today because I work with a lot of schools, and then I also work with a lot of kids in private practice, so I kind of straddle both. And a lot of the kids in my practice are anxious; that's a lot of what I focus on. And so this is the time of the year when I'm just interfacing with a lot of educators to kind of help them understand the particularities of the anxiety forms that kind of each individual client might have. But it also makes me think about just zooming out and pooling. all of our knowledge in general as far as what helps in a classroom when kids are. So I would love to do a deep dive with you on that today. Sounds great! And I have put together in the past about the top eight tips or strategies that you and I talk about. And so maybe we can go through those eight strategies and then we'll list them out in the show notes so that people don't actually have to write all these down. I think that sounds great. All right. OK. So what kind of sparked this was, as I've mentioned, I've had this come up a few times already in my practice this fall. And I find that the transition to a new teacher can be much more stressful. than we realize for kids who really want to know what to. And in particular, honestly, for kids who really don't want to get in trouble. So, situations like if there is a kid who kind of knew what to expect from a teacher last year, was invested in not getting in, felt like they knew how to do that. And then, all of a sudden this year there's a teacher who has a new expectation. Kid didn't know about it. Kid was playing in a certain quadrant of the playground that was not off limits last year to their former teacher, but got yelled at about it this year. All of a sudden now, they're in a position where they don't know what to expect at all. They don't know if anything they do is right. So we see sort of an overgeneralization in anxious kids of anything kind of new or unexpected, and especially if it came with like a startle or something that felt kind of scary when they were in a position of genuinely not feeling like they were doing anything wrong. Right? So one thing is new expectations, and really I think that spins out an anxious kid's nervous system. What do you think about that? Absolutely. And I think that throughout my, I am often asked to consult or evaluate or support a. And the question is, is this quote unquote just anxiety? Is there something more going on? Because they seem. so reactive, so paralyzed, so shut down, so emotional, whatever. And what I've learned is every year I think I need to relearn how impressive anxiety can be, and there is no just anxiety, right? So like, it's irrational. We can find themes and triggers for sure, and that is incredibly helpful. But when it comes down to it, the emotion is real. It can be super intense, and it doesn't have to always make sense, but we certainly can look at a situation and think, huh, I didn't think that just like going down the hall to like the next grade and a new teacher with generally the same building and the same friends would throw this kid for such a And then we learn that like, oh wow, okay, so like from their perspective it felt like the whole world changed and all the expectations were different, and I feel like I've lost my footing, and it snowballs on itself. So our job is to validate that whatever that emotion is real, and then kind of align with the child against that anxiety in terms of not allowing it to drive the bus, which I think is a Gillian quote Don't let it drive the..." yeah, I think that comes from parts work. Yeah, don't let that anxious part to just be in the driver's seat the whole time. You know, I think that's so right. Yeah, just anxiety. We tend colloquially to think of anxiety. generally, as a relatively mild experience, right? That you know someone's nervous or a little bit uncomfortable, but what we know about the— and I've said this a million times— is the brain is actually like, you know, a threat diagnostic machine. It's mostly there to keep us alive, and it's mostly there to actually look for threat and perhaps then find it where it isn't. And then, once the brain finds threat, it creates an incredibly intense internal experience, right, in the bodies of anxious kids that is impossible to ignore and can be really hard to function through, right? Just like ice water in the arms, right? Like absolute gnawing. In the It can then create a bit of an echo chamber, right? Like one thing I talk to a lot of kids and families about this time of year is, oh, is it just anxiety or is it a GI problem? And the answer is literally both, right? Once a kid gets anxious enough, that will absolutely, we all know this, but that will absolutely sour the stomach to the point that it's now we're both. Now you do have a really upset stomach. That is real, and now we got to deal with that. So, yeah, I love that, that once the nervous system kind of goes on fire because it doesn't know what to in a body that's already more vulnerable to anxiety, right? Some bodies have a higher cortisol response. We just get more stress chemicals than the average person. That is plenty to incapacitate a kid a little bit for a while, until we get it figured out. If you're interacting with them, you have to have the right language and tone, where you both validate how you're feeling is real and incredibly hard, and clarify on a thought level the situation doesn't warrant that emotion when that's true, right? So like we're talking now about anxiety in the realm of an exaggerated or rational fear or emotion based on what's actually going on. So like we know for sure that like going out to recess and not following the rules is not a threatening. experience and that the level of angst about it is out of proportion to the situation, and yet their emotion is real. And yet we don't want to have a plan where you don't ever have to go out to recess again because it's making you feel anxious. So it's like this is in fact a small problem, and I am so, so sorry that you are feeling so worried and upset about what should be a safe and fun part of your day. So I wanna help you cope with that emotion because it's real, and I believe you, and I don't want to let anxiety or worry prevent you from what you deserve, which is recess with your friends and fun and fresh air and all of that. So finding those words is really tricky. It's so easy to go to one extreme or the other where you're like, recess is really scary for you so we'll have to protect you from it, or you're overreacting; you just need to calm down, go outside, and you'll be fine. Yeah, and I mean right, exactly. We neither want to just sort of push and invalidate, nor do we want to coddle kids, right? To the point that they never have a chance to work through anything. And I think sometimes getting kids— and you talk so much in a way that I quote constantly— about getting on the same side of the problem, right? And I think that it can be easy to, if we invalidate the anxiety, right, then we're kind of aligning against the kid. Whereas if we coddle the kid, we're sort of agreeing with the kid's idea that they cannot handle this, like terrible anxiety. Whereas, you know, I like to take a look at, okay, yes, anxiety is irrational to some degree, but it usually is connected to one of three fairly predictable things that humans don't like. And I think we talked about this; sometimes I talk about this in the context of PDA as well, but PDA is often related to a massive anxiety response. I think PDA meaning persistent drive for autonomy. Yes, persistent drive for autonomy, which we have an episode on from season two if you want to go back. and listen to that. But it goes back to sort of my three kernels of startled, trapped, or shamed, right? So if we think about this playground example, it's like, yeah, no, the playground itself, or even getting in trouble on the playground itself, not the end of the world. But what was really the most scary thing about this to your amygdala, right? Was it that you were startled? Was it that you were like in a bit of a flow state, you were doing your thing, you didn't know you were doing anything naughty, so you weren't like kind of braced for impact in the way that you might be if you were breaking a rule, and then you got yelled at? That was super startling. right It like shocked you out of what you were you were not expecting that at all. Yeah, being startled is not something that a nervous system likes, or maybe you also felt shamed, right? So, in a world where belonging, right, staying connected to the group is such an important safety variable for human brains, being shamed, being exposed, feeling cast out, even for a feeling at risk of losing your standing as an accepted person in the group, that can feel very jangling to the amygdala. And I think sometimes getting a surprise scolding, let's say, can jangle that as well, especially if your identity as a kid is I usually don't get in. Oh my gosh, I just got yelled at in front of everyone. I never want that to happen again, but I don't even know why it happened this time, so I can't prevent it. And I do notice, lots of times with very good intentions, adults get distracted by what I believe to be sort of an irrelevant part of the situation. Like, I actually didn't yell, or no one actually yelled. Oh, good point! And that's where I feel like we just need to be like, if we are sitting next to the child and looking at the world from their perspective, the scenario is I felt as though I was yelled at for doing something that I thought was correct or acceptable. So that is the scenario that we are teaching. To, it doesn't actually matter, or at least not right now, if the adult yelled, used a loud voice, or spoke very calmly. It doesn't matter; and it does matter to adults who pride themselves in not yelling, and in fact, feeling like they're being falsely accused. So we can come back to that. Right now, their perception is their reality, and that's where we're meeting them. And we're telling them that in the scenario that you perceive to be true, I believe you. The theme I'm hearing is one of the three that you just listed, and I believe that you're strong enough and capable enough to cope with a situation like that. And later, if it even matters. we can figure out did they actually get yelled at or not and often it doesn't but sometimes it does. But it's just right where we go to, which I think is a common mistake of well-intended people. And that common mistake is to re-litigate what happened. Yeah, no, that's exactly right. Yeah, because once a person is already in an anxiety state, at that point they're not really available for new information. So we have to focus on regulating them. So working to understand their perception of what happened, this is where we also use that great strategy of you can validate without necessarily agreeing, right? And you have to get sort of tricky. with the words because if you really do not believe you yelled at a and they really are like I was merciless. They yelled at you do have to find a believable way to split the difference. But it could be something like when I said this part of the playground is off limits, it really felt like I was screaming at you. Fine. Yes, they're telling us it felt like we were screaming at them. That may have zero to do with the decibels that were coming out of our mouth, but things hit people different ways. And so that's right, we can often get to where we need to get with an anxious kid if we focus on validating and listening to Because if somebody is scared for one again, they're not in a place to take in a lot of new information on their experience of what happened quite yet. And also they need to feel a pretty big dose of belonging in order to accept co-regulation. Right, and I would bet good money that never in the history of humans has somebody said I got yelled at for nothing," and the other person said I did not in fact yell at you," and they said, " okay, now I feel better. I actually feel better. I thought you did yell at me, but I'm hearing you say that you didn't." Right, so we're good now, nevermind. Right? Like I don't think it's like sort of like telling telling someone to calm down has also never worked. Telling someone that their version of events is not accurate when they are in a stuck anxious place has never worked. Okay, and you know what? Here's what I think a kid is really saying when they're saying you yelled at me. Yeah, is they're saying you scared me, or they're saying you criticized me, or they're saying you are mad at me, right? That's really what they're saying is either I felt scared, or I think you feel mad, or I think you don't like me, right? Or I was startled because I had no idea I was surprised that I was doing anything that would be worthy of even redirection. So I was startled, I was. And so I think when we reflect back in a validating way, we can say I surprised you, letting you know that you weren't supposed to be there. Yeah. Now I'm understanding that you didn't expect that, and now you're feeling really startled by that. Thanks for letting me know. Yeah. And then, and the relational element, right? Like it could be like okay, so I wonder if you thought I was really mad at you, if it felt to you like I used a big voice, or I wonder if it even felt to you like I don't like you anymore. Or, like you know, you could also say, yeah, where does this leave like our relationship? Like do you feel like you still know that I like you and I think you're a good kid. You know, like that can be a way, like we don't need to relitigate yelling. But if a kid is convinced that we exactly, that probably means they were startled. They're worried that we don't like them anymore or that we think they're a bad kid. And those are the things that we can address, regardless of coming to the same understanding of what a decibel level was in one moment in time that we'll never get back. Yeah, right, absolutely. So for anxious kids, we wanna recognize that there's no such thing as just anxiety and that anxiety is really visceral. We wanna find a way to validate what they're saying without agreeing and even to hear the unmet needs under something like a, which is like startled, trapped relationship rupture, all those things. Great, we wanna find a way to get on the same side of the problem, right? You were surprised; that probably means that we need to have a clear understanding together about expectations, right? Or I sometimes do need to redirect kids if there's a safety issue, and we should talk about what does that mean for us. Does that mean that I don't like you? Does that mean that I'm mad at you? No, maybe let's figure out our relationship agreements right now, teacher to student, about how we get over a time where we were in some kind. of and I think we want to emphasize that what the child has control over is how they cope with emotion, not how they feel. So once we start teaching strategies, we want to model, praise, reinforce, and emphasize the way that they coped with how they felt. So I do see plans that, for example, a behavior reinforcement plan, which is serving to motivate somebody to try new strategies. So let's say that when a child feels really anxious, they elope out of the room and we are offering them a safe place to go in the and we want to have a behavior plan to incentivize in that

impulse moment: 18:04

go to your calming space instead of out the. So again, a behavior plan is not a regulation plan. Those are two different things. But once we've offered strategies, a behavior plan can sometimes motivate a child that feels like eloping; it is quite effective. It motivates them to try our new strategy. That's all it does; it just motivates. So what I worry is when I see a plan that gives stamps, checks, or reinforcement for, 'When I was angry, I used my strategy. When I wanted to leave, I went to my common place whatever it is. It's just reinforcing the use of the strategy, not the That's a great point. Yeah, 'cause kids have some agency over strategy they use; they don't have agency over, you know, the intensity with which an emotion first hits their body. Yep. And then because a lot of this can be very immediate and impulsive, and the rational brain doesn't kick in until you're already running down the hall. What you can do is give a second chance for that reinforcement by where you like really in a role play with me. So you eloped. Oopsies! We were trying to go to the calming space. Now let's role play. Like, after we're calm, after we're regulated, let's role play the scenario and go through the motions of going to that calming space. And then you get the same. So you basically get the same reinforcement for doing it in the first place or or being willing. to redo it in a role play, and with enough role play, it becomes the instinct. I love that! Yeah, also, yeah. The role play, after regulating, that's when a kid has access to their learning brain. Right, right. So that's where they can, they can make literally a choice. You can't always, if you're in the throes of And then if you get used to making a choice while you're calm, then that becomes even the motor plan that your instincts will take up once you're not calm and you need something to do. Right. And like the one of the most tricky parts of all this is that there is not like there's that famous quote that you need in the space between stimulus and response is our power. That's our agency. Agency, right? And so there is, if there isn't a space between stimulus and response, then we feel that, so we have no agency; we're out of control. And so we then, when we put a behavior plan on that, that expects them to have space that they don't have, then we just frustrate. They feel out of control. Yeah, they're like, now I'm now not only am I having huge emotions that I don't know what to deal with, but now I'm out a Hershey's kiss or whatever it is because of it. Yeah. So the two ways that we create space between stimulus and response, the first is proactive regulation. So scheduled non-contingent. regulation breaks. And that feels hard sometimes when somebody has done absolutely nothing that they were supposed to do. And we're still taking them on what feels like a really nice, caring break. And, but that is incredibly important. Non-contingent,

no matter what Jillian's quote is: 21:20

nurturing but boring. You know, it's not like the most exciting, high-preference thing, but it's nurturing and a little bit boring. And then, so proactive regulation breaks paired with role play and redo, role play and redo, role play and redo. And eventually, with enough repetitions— and it can be a lot— you get enough space that you see the child just. pause a minute and think before they do like one thing or the other. And that's where you realize you're starting to create that space. And you want to celebrate that. Even if they run out the door, you're like, Whoa! I just saw you. You think about it, think, and you made a decision to go out the door. So we're getting somewhere. Yeah. And that's different. That's different from kind of waking up out of an anxious trance halfway down the hall. Exactly. Yeah, I love that. Okay. So proactive. Yeah, I love the whether we need them or not breaks, which can feel frustrating, but they do are nurturing, but boring. Yep. And role play and redo. Yep. And then we you and I talk a lot, and I don't think either of us came up with this phrase, but we talk about strike while the iron is cold, which means basically what we've been saying, which is that you're not going to plan, process, or try to teach new information, or talk about a situation until somebody's totally cool, calm, and collected. And sometimes, past that often means that a person is going to be back on their routine for a while before we sit down and really talk through. And I think we get, as adults, rigid about they have to calm down, then they have to process, then they have to repair, then they can go back to routine. They'll never go back. Yeah, nope. So I think often we have to calm. Sometimes we have to go back to routine. Then we can do a process. And depending on how old they are, like a kindergartner, you don't want to let too much time pass, but an older student, it would be okay if it was even the next day sometimes. Oh, most times, yes. Yeah. And if it's happening 12 or 13 times, maybe even five or six times a day, my strategy for that is once a day we're gonna sit down and process one example of when something went well and one example of when things could have gone better. And because it's happening so many times, we certainly don't need to process every single incident. So we're just gonna pick an example. So now it becomes predictable, scheduled. You pair it with something that's like a snack or Play-Doh or coloring, or for older kids, you pair it with like fidgets or clay or something like drawing, sketching. And it's like, this is our time. We're gonna spend 10 minutes, and no matter what, when 10 minutes hits, we're done. And we're gonna look at something that went well and something that could have gone better, and then we're gonna talk it through, and then we're moving on with life. Yeah, that time limited, I've had such good luck with that. Even the most recalcitrant adolescents who don't wanna talk. to me at all will sometimes be willing if we literally set a, Yeah, right. I will also say for reluctant for teenagers and young adults who are to engage in psychotherapy, I think it's very developmentally appropriate to ask them, would you give a therapist four to six weeks just work on coping skills and strategies for anxiety? And then you make a about whether you wanna continue or not. I've had so much success with saying a clear timeframe. Yes, because I think we think of therapy as like, well, I'm going to go talk to this person until all my problems are solved or like forever, and you want me to talk to you about things that I don't. wanna talk to anybody about, especially a stranger. So if you make it intentionally superficial by saying this is about strategies and it's four to six weeks, which really is what you should do first anyway in psychotherapy, because if you're gonna dive deeper into themes of trauma or more intense experiences, you need those strategies to do that. Yeah. For, so it is the first phase either way. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And like when I was doing therapy more regularly with adolescents and young adults, it would often come in fits and bursts. Like, they would come for a few weeks or a couple of and then pause and then come back for another piece of work. And it's developmentally how I think they can approach this work. And so we adapt to that, and I think we're much more successful. Yeah, I think so too. I think so too. Yep. So striking while the iron is cold, finding that processing time. And also, I hear you saying helping teens to recognize that we're gonna need to do this, I would say for at least six weeks. Like, the metric I use is often six to eight, because that's how long it can take new coping strategies to take hold, whether it's in the therapy room or in a school. Is that kind of what you're saying on that one? Yeah. And I think I'm just like to tell the truth. I make up stuff sometimes. Yes. So sometimes I just am like, what would be a, I think we could actually authentically do some work and would sound like a minimum commitment. And so I think four to six weeks is actually the time that you could do short-term solution-oriented therapy. I think so too. There's research behind that timeframe. I'm not totally making that up, but I'm just sort of being clear about what the commitment is that's being asked. And if you're talking about making something a habit, which means it's an instinct, that's a lot of repetitions. Yeah. So that would be more than that for sure. Like 40 maybe. Well, I think last in our last. podcast I think I mentioned that I had looked this up the research on how many times you have to repeat something before it's a habit, which is 66. 66, that's the average. Even more than I, okay? Yeah. And I don't know if that means 66 days or like 66 repetitions, but let's go days. Let's go days. I like that. Okay? Yeah. Okay. Okay. So next strategy, if you can reduce that cognitive load on an anxious person, it would be amazing. So if there's a time that's predictably anxious, getting ready for school for somebody who's resistant to school, any kind of transitions are often really anxiety provoking. So the more that you can make visual lists for Younger kids, their picture task strips for older kids, their lists. You can have reminders sent through all of the technology that we're addicted to. You can use it for its good powers by having it send lists and reminders in. So basically, it's like the less that you're asking an anxious person, an anxious brain, to remember things, even if it's simple things that they do every day, the better. So like take anything that you can take off the cognitive load. So I'm big on lists that seem unnecessary, task strips, routines, making like as much as you can. If you have an anxious person in your household or your classroom, the more predictable. the routines are the same every day. An anxious brain likes things to be it likes to know that, like predictably, we do things in a certain order. Tricky if you're a middle or high school teacher because those individuals also like spontaneity. Yeah, they sure do. So you could absolutely have a lot of things about your class that are highly predictable, like what we do first and the order of things and where people sit, you know, the content or the projects or some of the options or choices within that frame. Yep, I heard about a PE teacher here in Oregon, uh, handling that in a really cool way. They sort of made the novelty part of the predictability. So basically, and this this is for um, you know, this is for a school that caters to neurodivergent kids.

And so he works like this: 30:01

It's that there will be a, there'll be a lesson and a sport, and folks can choose to do that sport. Also, there will be stations set up too. And there will always be a couple of familiar stations, like you know, things and activities we've learned before. And there will always be at least one new thing. And I just thought that was so nice. It's like there's so much choice in that. And we we know what to expect, both that a lot of it will be what we've seen before, and one thing will be new. Yeah, right. And so you're sort of allowing Yeah, you're reducing the idea that you would be. You never know when I'm going to change things up. That's right. It's like, and yeah, it's like for those who need novelty or not, you can predict that will be novelty. For those who need same, you can predict there will be same. That just made me think of another thing that parents and teachers bring up a lot, which is that for an anxious person, you want to let them know ahead of time when things are changing, but you don't want to let them know too far ahead of time because then they become really focused on that. And I do notice sometimes that people do spring changes. on kids because they know if they tell them the night before that they will perseverate on it. They do. This is so true. Yeah. So how do you handle that when that's a client in your practice? Yeah. So I mean if it's a big change like somebody is changing like staff or something, I like to give that at least a couple of weeks for some big structural change to either like a really central person to that kid's day. Or certainly if a kid is moving schools, I think we would need to let them know no matter how anxious they are, at least two weeks in advance. You know if it's something else like oh, there's going to be a type of assembly that you really don't like instead of, let's say, this other part of the day that you usually really do like. I would say we can talk about that the day before, or in extreme anxiety cases maybe day of, but I would do that at the very, very beginning of the day. And I would also pair that with some accountability, that this was a little bit of an adult thing that we didn't tell you. We're sorry if this feels like a surprise. We made this decision because we didn't want to ruin both your yesterday and this morning, but we're open to feedback if you think this was sprung upon you. Yeah, I mean, generally I feel like if a student thinks that things might be changing. And people may or may not be telling me there's a hum of anxiety all the time. And I feel like I would pay the cost of perseveration and angst leading up to a change that was communicated ahead of time. That feels more affordable to me than creating this idea of like you never know. That is really true. Because for kids in contexts where they do never know, the anxiety kind of globalizes and generalizes quite fast. It never gets better. And so like if I'm going to tell you a big change two weeks ahead, a small change the day ahead, and that becomes predictable, I would say that over time, I think the child will get better. Yeah, I would say that. too At coping, we can pair coping skills with those situations, and they will get better at that. And and I don't think they'll ever get better at, like, you never know when things might change because we spring them on you so that you don't perseverate. No, I think that's a very, very good point. Yeah, it's one of those things where we can make our lives harder with kids in the short term, but that actually makes them easier in the long term. Yeah, a lot of things are like that, actually. Right, I do also like this might be a tiny on purpose, like a purposeful tangent. But like when kids have fragile attachment or anxious attachments to their key providers and those people are changing. Yes, I do think that there is also such a thing as too much time, too much, too long of a goodbye. Ooh, yes. Say more. So I would say, like, let's say that their school counselor or their special educator or their classroom teacher or their one-to-one support person is changing, and it's particularly important person to them. I would say pretty much at any age, like a month, I feel like is too long to know that. That's too much. Yeah, I agree. Because then it's like so long to say goodbye to that person. What do you think about my two-week instinct on that? Would you edit that? Do you think that's still too? long No, I think two weeks is just about right. I think it gives you time to maybe have a negative reaction and hopefully have enough time to at least communicate that you understand why they're having the negative reaction. You still care about them and you're going to miss them and all of that. I think two weeks is just about the sweet spot. And then, I think there's also healthy goodbyes. Like at the end of every school year, almost always your classroom teacher changes. Sometimes people are with teachers for more than one year, but there's healthy changes that are part of life. And those are just really great opportunities for us to learn how to have positive and healthy goodbyes, which we embrace. And the grief work that we can do around that is really valuable. But yeah, and so I think sometimes in the spring when we start saying like, well, next year you're gonna be in second grade, and second graders, you know, like also, like when should that all start? I'm not a huge fan of that anyway, but like I do think that like maybe June. I wouldn't start talking about any of that stuff till June. Cause it's like again, like from how you started this conversation is like what looks to us like a tiny change can feel enormous. Yeah. Yeah, I would say June on that too. And the Only reason I would say that because then it can lead to some perseverating over the summer is that a great thing for anxious kids is to give them as much of a visual as we can on what to expect in the next context. Yeah. So you know if it can be June and if that also means that we can like tour if there's a new school, that we can like tour that while there's still staff, if there might be a way that we could even see the new classroom while it's actually like set up and there are kids in it. If there's any way we can meet some new teachers while they're still like around, you all of those are really good reasons for me. Yeah. To move it to a June. but then they also might need some support, right? Coping with the knowledge of that change during a can feel like kind of interminable summer. Yeah. And I think we've sort of hinted at this, but like the last clear strategy that I don't think we've named is like we want to communicate directly and indirectly that we believe that they're capable of coping. And so if we protect them from information, if we protect them from changes, transitions, experiences that are in fact growth promoting and healthy, we're communicating that they're not capable, they're fragile. And so they need to be protected from those kinds of, which isn't. the message that empowers the anxiety as opposed to the child. So we want to, even though we know it's gonna be really hard, to communicate that we believe that you can do this and we're with you in it. Yeah. And I think the with you in it is so important, right? Cause I think for so many anxious kids, like they do need to hear that they are capable, but I think they're so afraid that that will quickly tip over into, and so you're alone with this, like you know, deal with it. Yeah. But I think anxious kids really can handle, you know, high standards and, you know, being basically held to the standard of their competency and their resilience, which is high. If we also say you actually won't be alone with it, you know, like we're gonna be here with you know, we're gonna have a plan where, yeah, we do like remind you each morning for as long as you need exactly what's gonna happen this day. And you know, you have access to a lot of co-regulation and a lot of help. And that's how we know you can do this, right? Is that we know you can do this together. Yeah, that reassurance seeking can be tricky. It sure can. And I've learned from teachers and parents some really cool strategies. Like one dad says when a question is repeatedly asked from his son, ask and answer it, buddy. Ask and answer. It I've heard that too. I love that one. Yeah, and then a mom that I worked with, her daughter would ask her what was for dinner like hundreds of times. And so she would write on the chalkboard in the kitchen what was for dinner. And then she said I will answer that question two times. And after that, you need to go look at the board Seems like you really want to know, you really want that information to come from outside of you many times. So I wrote it on the board, and that's my message to you. And after I say it two times, then you can go look at the board really as many times as you want. And visuals are so huge for this, right? Because anxious. folks often do need to get the information in a way that feels outside of them that will burn out the verbal and emotional capacity of the people around them. But yeah, I mean I'll often find this even when I do like programming for like bedtimes, right? For a kid who I'm working with, their family, you know, sometimes for example separating at night can be easier if you know kiddo might have uncertainty about just like where in the house are my parents gonna be this evening. And sometimes if parents can just write on a sticky note, oh yeah, actually tonight our plan is to like watch a movie in the living room. That's where we'll be it's written down. Or if parents are like, yeah, we're probably gonna be like, in the like, doing laundry. That's, you know, that sort of thing. The anxious brain often does have a bit of a need to check and recheck, but it will sometimes gladly switch that over to a visual, with the information that, you know, they're gonna keep needing to reassure themselves that they know. And then this might be getting a little bit too technical, but there's like, when the brain gets external reassurance for a worry or anxiety, and it seeks it more and more, and then it expects it more and more. And so scheduling that and trying to create a tolerance in between. That, like, for example, I was talking with a group of parents who were checking their child's location on their phone many times. And basically, it's like if you're worried and then you get you see where they are and that they're where they're supposed to be, you get a little hit of reassurance, and then you're just gonna want it again. And so if you can, like, say I'm going to go 10 minutes without checking, and then I'm going to go 20 minutes without checking, I'm going to go 30 minutes, and you keep extending that time, you actually will become increasingly comfortable in between the times when you sort of, quote unquote, suffer. through that planned trial. And so, you have to sort of wean yourself off. Your brain will adjust, but if you're doing it more and more, your brain is adjusting to the frequency at which your behavior is exhibiting. That's so true. Yeah, so let's get a framework for the brain. Let's give the brain, let's let the brain know you will be able to like double check this in X amount of time; that information will be available to you. For a kid who's always asking questions about the flow of the day, it's like we've actually we've gotten you the flow of the day on your desk. It's updated for each day. So, you now have a place to put that need to check. And in between asking about it, we're gonna help you cope because we want you to be able to extend the time in between accessing in the moment reassurance from another human, which can be a little bit addictive. Right? So it's like you're worried. One way of feeling better is to ask me a question and I give you the same comforting, predictable, already known answer. So that's the ritual that you're using to calm yourself. So great! That's in your coping skill box. I will do that two times; then what else are you gonna do? What are your other strategies? What else is in that toolbox? And let's get some more strategies because I think that might be your only one. And these are really strategies overall to handle uncertainty, right? So a lot of times anxiety might come down to startled, trapped, or And it also often comes down to And it's very hard to be a human in such an uncertain universe. I think that's the same side of the problem we can all get on. And if we zoom out that far, then we can actually maybe really enjoy helping kids. It's like, yeah, you're working on tolerating uncertainty. It's hard for me too.

Here's what I do when something's uncertain: 43:25

maybe I like shake out my body, maybe I take two. Maybe, you know, like we're all in this together as humans trying to tolerate uncertainty. and manage an anxious existence. Yeah, and tricking your brain into thinking that it created certainty in an uncertain situation is quite remarkably effective, like sorting, solving a, or organizing a junk drawer, putting things in a way, categorizing things, whatever you like. Your brain feels satisfied that like there was an uncertainty; I made it certain, there was an unsolved problem; I solved a. I feel a little bit better. Yes, and it's distracting because you're not diving into the thing that you're anxious about; you're sorting. So you're also speaking at the end here to, you know, what CBT might call mastery tasks or what. we like to you know, so stuff that you already know how to do, you're already good at, but they're very reassuring to have that sort of control over the material realm. And you also have taught me a lot about purpose and accomplishment as a way to do that too, right? So junk drawer sorting stuff, categorizing, putting them in rainbow order, cleaning a. These are all ways that we can feel a sense of purpose. And the brain, the brain finds that very certifying. And so if your anxiety is stemming from uncertainty, those can really help too, right? Yeah, great! All right, awesome. Thanks! And we will link your amazing resource on this in the show. notes And we'll see you all next time. Thanks for listening to Sense of Curiosity. Bye, everybody! Thank you for listening to another episode of Stance of Curiosity. Stance of Curiosity is an unscripted conversation between Gillian Boudreau and Joelle VanLent. While both are licensed psychologists, this podcast is provided for informational and educational purposes only. The content presented should not be considered a substitute for professional psychological, medical, or mental health advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Listeners should always consult with a qualified mental health professional whenever needed. for specific concerns or questions related to their personal situation. Stance of Curiosity is produced by Jillian Boudreau and Joelle VanLent. Our cover art is by Aaron Lanou, and our music is upbeat indie folk by Twin Music. See you next time.