"Fear Barfing" and "Parallel Process:" Putting words to the difficulty of working with parents.

Joelle and Gillian explore a concept from the world of psychotherapy and how it could play out between a child, their parent, and a school professional.  When a child expresses their anxiety related to school demands to their parent, their parent may in turn express that distress to the school professional.  We are all seeking reassurance and regulation from each other.  We can trip over each other or we can compassionately respond in a firm and supportive manner.  There is a concept from the world of psychotherapy called “parallel process” that resembles this dynamic.  This concept can help us both respond effectively and shift our own stress response.  

This discussion relates to this video from Josh Ship- 

Like the Lap Bar on a Roller Coaster,  Teens Will Test You to See if You Will Hold

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Transcript

0:23

Thank you. Welcome back to Stance of Curiosity. This is our first episode of season four. I'm Gillian Boudreau. Hi, Joelle. Hi, everybody. Happy New Year. I'm Joelle. Welcome to season four. When you hear this, you will be really in the meat of the year and trying to transition back from the long break. So we're sending so much strength and love in these trying times. Hmm. Yep. Although sometimes January is. I think a relief because it's a break from all the wild transitions and weird things that happened in December. It feels like The- September to December is uphill and it feels like January is the beginning of downhill. Yes. It's like maybe a little, a tiny bit of a like plateau or a coasting. And now maybe you're kind of using all of the things that you put in place and then. Yeah, once it gets to April, we're landing the plane. So it's just a few months away now. That's right. All right, so. We thought we would talk about an aspect of supporting anxious students and anxious families and we thought we would apply a concept from our psychotherapy world of parallel process to that. Yes. Yes. Yep. So parallel process is, it's funny. I first learned about it, Joelle, as far as things that can go on between, let's say, a therapist like me and my supervisor. That might mirror that which is going on between a therapist like me and my client? Are you thinking about it the same way? Yes, exactly. So I always like to just define it the way that it was put together in the shrinking world before we extrapolate it. So, you know, as an example, let's say that. I have a very, you know, maybe a client who has had a lot of betrayal in many of their close relationships and perhaps is pretty mistrustful of me. And just waiting for me to fail them because they're trying to stay really vigilant against being disappointed again. And so sometimes that can create an attitude in a patient where, you know, I might they might be sort of hypercritical of me. Or if I'm a few minutes late, right, they might be saying things like, 'I knew you never cared about me.' You know, you're awful. You'll never make this up to me. And that might cause me to feel. On the one part, really guilty and like I'm a kid who's in trouble. And then in reaction to that might also cause me to feel really resentful of this client, right? Like, that's not fair. You can't treat me like that, right? So we can get into a bit of a unhealthy dynamic then. parallel process might look like if I'm talking about this client. in a supervisory relationship. Mm hmm. I actually might take on the role of the client. And I might start treating my supervisor the same way. So it might feel like, 'Look, I don't know what to do with this client. I'm feeling really upset.' This feels like an emergency to me. Then guess what? Maybe my supervisor is a few minutes late. Or maybe my supervisor is sick one week when I like desperately wanted to process this client because I'm already feeling like I'm a terrible therapist and I'm like about to lose— lose my job if I don't figure this out. And then are you kidding me? This, this is the week that my supervisor is sick. And now I'm remembering all those other times when they were a little bit late, or do they even care about me at all? How am I supposed to do this by myself? This supervisor is such a effing up everywhere. And then maybe that supervisor begins to feel equal parts criticized and in trouble by me, their supervisee, and also a little resentful and like, 'Hey, you can't talk to me like that, right? Like you're being unprofessional.' And now, we are in a parallel process scenario. Would you agree with that definition? Yes, and I think that, what I understood in learning about this, and then what I understood in in situations where it was playing out, is that. Often when we are in the professional role as the therapist with the client, we are inhibiting our outrage and we are responding in a very caring and patient way. And, appropriate way. But meanwhile, internally feeling like this is ridiculous. I can't believe that they are reacting to me in this way. And then turn around and sort of unconsciously vent that to our supervisor. And so it doesn't look exactly like the same dynamic between patient and client is exactly the same between. I mean, between therapist and client, looks more like the therapist is remaining professional and validating, and all that. But then turns around, and is in that role of projecting. And the therapist often is—um— remaining patient and validating. Often, the therapist can then point out the way that you're describing your interaction with the client is exactly the way that you're acting toward me. Are you noticing that? And that's where we can unpack that. That's right. So I think that's an important element. Part of what can create the parallel process is when you suppress how, in your professional role, very appropriately, in a very bounded way, you suppress how this is feeling for you. And then you don't really know what to do with it. And then it gets tapped into. In that relationship with your supervisor. That's right. So you almost have to find another place to barf all that. Right. Right. And another professional or a colleague or somebody like that isn't the worst place for it. Right. But then, hopefully, they can catch that and be like, 'Oh, hey. You seem to be treating me similarly to how you're saying this very difficult client is treating you.' Yes. Yeah, I mean, I think it can actually be really useful, right? Yeah. Especially if the, because like, when you are supervising somebody in a clinical role. You're looking for those potential parallels and parallel process is. I've understood it as in any system. Where there's somewhat of a hierarchy of care or responsibility for helping or caring relationship, there's always some version of parallel process potentially at play. I think that's exactly right. Human nature. Yeah. It's not a sign of anybody being unhealthy. It's just human nature. Yep. Right. These feelings just need somewhere to go. And we tend to process them in community. Yep. Right. Right. So here's what happened for me that I wanted to talk this over with you. I have had several scenarios this school year. And last school year too, where a teacher, a school counselor, or a principal—someone in a school—plays a professional role. is supporting a student that's highly anxious, having a hard time, maybe separating from parents to come into the building. going home and reporting all kinds of outrageous events that they're reporting happened. and struggling in various ways because of anxiety. And so what has been coming up is the school staff person is telling me. when they're talking to the parent, that the parent is demanding a level of accountability or adapt accommodation, demanding a level of accommodation that feels enabling. It feels like it's letting the anxiety win. Or the parent is reporting that the student is being mistreated when that was not actually the case, but the way they're not calling with curiosity, they're calling with a lot of distress and heightened emotion. And. So the The school staff person is talking to me, who is a consultant there to help. And saying, 'I'm really struggling with the parent. And it seems to make sense what we're doing with the child, but the parent seems to be having a hard time holding the frame. That we can get to as two adults who support this child together. We can have a good frame.' The parent seems to have a hard time holding that. And after a few times, I had this like realization that, like, oh. I think the parent is receiving this like intense distress. from the child about going to school or what's happening at school. And that's really hard as a parent to have your child say that that school is a place where they are feeling highly distressed, not being supported, negative things are happening, not feeling safe. And I'm imagining that often the parent in those conversations with their child at home is validating and listening and supporting, but meanwhile, internally feeling. really worried or distressed themselves or sort of like empathically attuning to the distress of their child. And I think what happens is then they call and they talk to the adult at school. And it's kind of just like a parallel process where they vent on the adult at school and the adult at school. is really confused by that. And so I said, What if we thought about how If we could understand that the parent is The anxiety is trickling up. In a parallel process, it's going from child to parent. Parent to us. And what if we could respond to the parent? Exactly like we would want them to respond to their child, or exactly like we would respond to their child, validate how they're feeling, hold the line in a firm but nurturing way, and stick with the plan. It's a good plan. Your child is in fact, you know, safe and well supported in these situations if we feel sure that that's true— right in this scenario that I'm thinking of. These examples, there is not an actual threat like we have investigated. And we know that this is anxiety tricking the child into thinking that they're in danger when they're not. So when we know that's the case and we're aligning with the child against anxiety, there's a trickle up. So I said, what if this was a parallel process? And you could. Not feel so, because what happens is. The adults, the staff person ends up feeling defensive. And ends up feeling like they're like. Collaboration with this parent is falling apart. Yes. And really worried that they're not responding to their child in a co-regulating way, worried that they're co-escalating with their child. But as I've really unpacked some of these situations, I think sometimes parents co-escalate with kids. We all co-escalate with our kids sometimes because we love them and their emotions have a powerful impact on us. I think lots of times the parents are probably doing a reasonable job. When they're talking with the kid, but then they turn around and kind of unconsciously unload on the school professional, just like the therapist might turn and unload on their supervisor what they suppressed or held in. And. What helps all of us not take this personally and understand what's happening is when we have like a name for it and recognize. The most helpful thing for me to do right now is co-regulate the parent and respond to them in the way that we would want them to respond to their child, which is going to make them feel like, 'Right, okay, the plan. The plan that we have is a good plan. And they're also going to have vented. And then the question is, what does the school staff person do? With the fact that it just trickled up to them. What if you're holding it? What do you do? Yeah. Okay. That's so important. So here's what I hear in that. I'm sort of following the message of the anxiety from person to person, right? So I think a really anxious kid is coming to their parent with both a very helpless, but also a very demanding energy. And the anxiety is saying, 'You parent have to fix this because I child can't handle it.' So the anxious child is totally separated from their belief that they can handle something. And so they're now coming to the next person in that mix of totally helpless and totally demanding. Right. So I have often been on the receiving end of that as a therapist and sometimes as a parent. Right. So the parent who's dealing with that is full now of their child's demand. Right. They have worked probably very hard, maybe they've even said to the kid, like, you know, 'I think you can handle this.' Maybe, you know, the way that we would want to do that is to bolster the person's sense that they can handle it, rather than taking on the, rather than believing the helplessness and taking on the demand. So a real mix of validating this feels like you can't handle it. And I'm here to help you. But I'm actually not 100% taking this on as an assignment. Your distress is actually not purely an assignment for me. Actually, I can help you deal with this, right? But it takes a lot of work.

And eventually it sounds like this parent does: 14:19

fall prey to this idea that 'This is now an assignment for them.' And in fact, it's an impossible assignment for them to fix this for their kids. So maybe they do turn toward the next person, the school professional, and just barf that same anxious message of, 'Okay, school professional, you have to fix this now for me and my kid, because my kid can't handle it. And I can't handle that. My kid can't handle it. And so the intensity and the defensiveness that the school professional is feeling is a reaction to the, as a reaction to that demand, is a reaction to the, the illusion that, well, now you've got to fix it. And so it would be easy, right, for that school professional to be like, 'Oh no, now I have an overwhelming and impossible assignment. This feels like a setup for me. And it is, what am I going to do about this? Right. And so a school professional might fly into a panic. They might, they might sort of be like, 'Well, it's not, not my fault. Like, don't make this my problem.' Right. When really you're right. They just need to get unhooked from it. And it's really hard and be like, 'Oh.' This is actually the message of anxiety, which says that somebody external has to fix this because the person with the anxiety can't handle it. The antidote to this is to be like, 'It does feel really big.' It makes sense that it feels really big. I think you probably have more capacity to handle this than you think. And I'm going to help you.

So the message back to that parent could sound like: 15:46

'I know what it is like when your kid really feels like they can't handle something.' I have also really felt the pressure to try to fix that for them and how much I want to be able to fix that for them and how they're demanding that we fix it for them because they just really believe they can't handle it. And I might say to the parent what I'm doing. I might say, 'I'm going to remind you.' The same thing that you and I need to partner to keep reminding your kid. Yeah. So I'm going to say to you, 'I know.' Your kid is constantly at you. To fix this for them. And now you want me to rescue you from that experience. I totally get that. And you know what? You know what? Short term. If we never had them come to school. Or if we never had anyone in the class wear purple, which is a color that they hate. Temporarily, that would take the heat down on this because it would give them less of that thing that they feel like they can't handle. And then they would have fewer demands for us. But let me say to you, parents, I can actually help you handle. How intense it is that your kid is always coming at you to try to fix this. mm-hmm And then together, you and I—Ken— help the kid tolerate this discomfort, right? Really what we just need to do is build distress tolerance all the way down. We need to help the parent tolerate the discomfort. Of the kid demanding again and again and again that they fix things for them. And ultimately we have to help the kid tolerate the discomfort, right? Of the things that are making them feel anxious. Paired with validation. Right. But it's a little bit sort of giving back to the anxious person, the assignment. To fix it for them? And instead of being like, 'You really wish I could fix this for you.' I actually really wish I could fix this for you. This is really stressful. Let's work together to help you tap into the capacity that you do have to handle this. Yeah, absolutely. I think, in what I just heard you say, that idea of 'I don't feel like I can handle this' and 'I need you to fix this for me.' And then the parent turning around and calling the school staff saying, 'I don't feel like I can handle this. I need you to fix this for us.' I think that that is. So spot on and really helpful to think about. So I was thinking about how, when you are a clinical supervisor, you have a lot of training around being in that clinical supervisor role. And you are looking for examples of where the therapist that you're supervising might be playing out. The relationship that happens with their client with you. And then you're going to help them take a step back and look at that together and see how they can remain. The most healthy and effective therapist for that client. By looking at the dynamic that they're kind of showing you. Yes. And then you are also going to buffer them from compassion fatigue or vicarious trauma by helping them see, like, 'I don't think this is actually how you feel about me or about us. I think this is actually like you. kind of showing me what's going on with you and your client.' And then you have this sense of relief and realization. So a school staff person can't say to the parent, 'Oh, you're just playing out with me what played out with you and your kid.' But a school staff person can expect that, if they have built. A trusting and strong relationship with a parent that they're collaborating with. That parent, when they reach out in an email or a phone call, is probably going to show them what just happened. Show you what just happened between them and their child. By how they treat you. It's information. Right. So the way that they talk to me, the emotion that they're feeling is going to be probably what just went on between them and their kid. It's probably not about our relationship, except that it's a compliment that you have enough trust that they were the person that they turned around and vomited on. Basically, this parent is now performing a dramatic reenactment for me of what just went on at home. And what a gift that they've chosen me as a safe person to do this. And I'm going to take a while. Well, it's not a wild guess. It's an educated guess based on 25 years of supporting parents with anxious kids. I think that what the parent is showing you— is not at all the way that they just behaved with their child. Most of the time. Sometimes it is going to be exactly what just happened, but lots of times they're going to have been a better version of themselves with their kid and then they're going to turn around. and um, direct that negative that that like anxious or distressed to you yeah, what happens is we get really worried like, oh my god, did you just talk to your student like this? Because now they're like, 'that's gonna totally undo' like the productivity and I'm the only one in this situation co-regulating the child. And so I just want people to pump the brakes. And, like, suspect that probably you're not getting. whatever the child just got, which would be appropriate. Right, you're getting what the parent just got. Exactly. Exactly. Wow, that's okay. There's a lot of profound things here. So one— Try not to take personally what the parent is bringing you because it's not about you at all. It's totally just about this parent's relationship with the kid. And also try not to freak out too much. About the attitude you're hearing in this parent and worrying that that's what's getting directed at your beloved student. Because no. The parent probably wouldn't need to call you up and let off steam in this way if they weren't actually exhausted from just having done a great job. Being mature and regulated while this was the energy that they were bombarded with from your student. Right, right. Especially if this is a parent who does not have a co-parent. Especially if this is a parent that has a co-parent that's also struggling or was just at work when this all happened or for whatever reason feels relatively alone in this situation, you're going to be that. Save object for them. You know, you're more likely to do that. So I think we want to, when we pick up that phone or read that email, we want to first take a deep breath and say. 'I'm probably gonna get some information about just what just went on. And it's probably not going to be about the job I'm actually doing, the plan we have.' Or, um, how they actually just behaved with their kid— probably not just give the benefit of the doubt; it doesn't really harm us to give the benefit of the doubt. And then, in that interaction, you're focused on, as you just said earlier, validating how they're feeling. and holding firm to the plan. That you've come up with, because what they really need is for you to say, 'I'm so glad that you reached out.' It sounds like that was really hard. And I really appreciate that you called and let me know. I do believe in our plan and I do believe in your child's capacity. And I do think we're going to have to do this dance a bunch of times before it starts to feel different. But I am in it with you. And I totally get that that was really hard. And I am going to follow up with them tomorrow to see. You know, what. what feedback they might have. And so I think the parent needs to feel validated. They need to basically express the distress that they just absorbed from their child. They need to feel validated and they need to feel that they're not alone in helping their child. They don't actually need you to be floppy and change the plan just because they had some version of a bit of a meltdown or because their child had a bit of a meltdown or because both the parent and the child had a bit of a meltdown. They do not actually need or probably want us when they are back calm, rational. To change the plan. Can I share one of my favorite moves for this? Yes. If you have a lot of bandwidth that day, and you may not— But my favorite move for this is actually, it almost feels to me like emotional, like martial arts, but not in an aggressive way. Just sometimes in martial arts, you know, they'll be like, 'Oh, how could you like catch the energy of attack and then actually spin it? into some kind of solution for everyone. And, and so this would be, I, what I love to do is something like, 'Oh my gosh, thank you so much for telling me what went on.' This helps me really understand how much intensity our beloved student still has about this issue. And then what I would say to them is, 'This actually makes me even more confident in the plan that we have.' Because what they were coming to you for was— was basically reassurance that what we're doing is going to work. And sometimes kids will ramp up the intensity, right?— like jangling the, like, you know, the bar on the roller coaster, right? They really, you know, we are asking. We are, you know, we are being steady with this kid and supporting them through. Tolerating the distress of coming to school right or tolerating the distress of seeing people in their classroom who are wearing purple or whatever it is. And, you know, so what I might say is, man, you did such, I bet you did such a good job staying sturdy with them. And that is exhausting. And I'm glad that now you're bringing me the exhaustion of that. I'm really hearing that they were extra ramped about this today. Here's the beauty of our plan is that we're staying steady with it. And we have really worked hard to, to make asks of them that we know are within their window of tolerance and capacity. And so I think they needed you to be like, I hear that you're stressed and. I trust that this plan is going to work. Now let me take the opportunity to say to you. I hear that you're stressed because your kid was stressed. And the plan is going to work. I still feel totally confident in this plan. So I think we can even be like. Not only do I hear you and also what you experienced makes me even more confident in our plan and let me tell you why. Yeah. And you just mentioned the Ferris wheel lap bar. So in the show notes, we'll put Josh Shipp's 90-second parenting clip. Yes. That metaphor for exactly what we're talking about, which is really beautiful because you can keep that metaphor in mind. And he talks about teenagers, but I think his metaphor applies to kids of all ages. So yeah,

it basically says: 27:10

right when kids are going through something, they are— they're going to keep asking, they're going to test the adults, and with anxiety, with anxiety, they're going to keep asking adults the same question, which is, 'Am I okay?' And what they don't need you to say is, 'Oh my God, I don't know, honey, maybe not.' Let's change the plan and be floppy. They need you to be like, 'Yeah, yep.' Thanks for asking. I'm really sure we're okay. I think you could handle this. I'm going to help you. Yeah,

and his metaphor is: 27:37

as soon as you get in a Ferris wheel and the Ferris wheel person puts that lap bar down. What's the first thing that you do is you test it to make sure that it's going to hold. Yeah. And you don't want it to be too tight and restrictive so that you can't breathe and enjoy the ride, but you also don't want it to be floppy because that would feel really scary as you're going up and about. That you didn't have a strong bar, but you always test the bar. And the metaphor that the extension of his Ferris wheel metaphor that I think about for kids with a fragile attachment history or trauma history that involves caregiving is that they won't test the bar once or twice and then enjoy the ride. They're going to test it the whole ride. Yes, they are going to test it the whole ride, which is not actually a sign of their lack of capacity. It is a sign of their increased need for confirmation. That there is a sturdy plan. Right. And often has more to do with prior experience than current experience. So it's not a reflection of your. you as the school professional or you as the parent. who's present today. If you weren't the one who was unsteady before. Yes. It doesn't really matter how steady you're being now. You'll still get tested. Yes. And also, you know what, for parents, maybe you were the one who was less steady before and you've learned to be more steady now. And so you're more steady now. Yeah. To some degree, none of your business. The prior version of yourself did. Your job is just to be steady now. And you also might be a lovely parent who has an anxious child or a lovely parent who has a teenager. Yes. And there's a lot of lap belt testing more than just once at the beginning when you're anxious or when you're a teenager, because that's a rougher part of the ride. That's right. Yeah, and I think that The question then. To bring this full circle is so you have, you are the school staff person who got the phone call from the parent and they parallel processed all the stuff back to you that just went on with their kids. They, they did the, basically the kid fear, the kid fear barfed on the parents and the parent fear barfed on you. Yep, so you did a beautiful job of responding, as we've suggested. You hang up the phone. But now you're covered in fear barf. Yep. So what do you do? And so. Tell me if you think this is naive and silly. I think if you could say. That must have been really hard for that parent to have that pick up that kid from school or have that kid come home. and feel that intensity of anxiety from their kid, I'm So glad they called and shared that with me. they're in a tough spot. I'm trying to strategically shift the defensiveness and ick that might feel like it just got. shifted to me. back to the parent in the form of compassion. Mm-hmm. Okay. So you're saying that this is self-talk that the school professional, I got confused because in my mind, I was trying to think about, and then you go to someone else and get help, but it sounds like you're not going there. You're starting at. I feel how. Defensive. I could be. Because I feel how much I could get scared here that we're doing the wrong thing and failing this kid. And instead of actually making that reality, I can think to myself, 'Gosh, how scared must this parent be? That they might not do the right thing, that they might feel this kid for them to barf all that onto me. Right, because I'm an empathic person, which most helping professionals are quite good at empathy, where you feel what another person that you're interacting with is feeling. Yeah. Or attunement, their empathic attunement, because we get good at that when we're helpers, you hang up the phone and you say to yourself, 'This is how they feel.' Yeah. And that's. really hard to get a glimpse of emotionally for a moment. But this is not my emotion. This is not my problem. And this is not about the kind of job that I'm doing, or even maybe how that parent usually feels about me or my school. This is just how they're feeling right now, and I can send it back to them. With love or with care. I think that is a 1 million percent correct. And if it were me... Hmm hmm. Because I do run anxious, and also because I am an extrovert who sometimes needs to process in community. I might still need. To go to a trusted colleague, even after all that, I might need to go to, go to someone and say, 'Hey, let's call this child. Let's call this child, you know, Cassandra.' I might need to say, 'Hey, Cassandra's parent called.' Hmm hmm. I know. That we are being compassionate and actually not asking too much of this kid. I know that we have made this plan so carefully and that we're so sure that we're acting within this child's window of tolerance. But this parent was panicked that we're asking way too much of this kid and we should just give up and do exactly what the anxiety is saying this kid wants and needs. And they did jangle me a little bit. They got me a little bit in my defensiveness and my guilt, and they got me to a little bit wonder. If we're doing the right thing, or if they got me a little bit to wonder, should we just change the plan and just do exactly what this kid is saying they want, even though we don't think that's what they need? Can you just remind me that we are not torturing this child, that in fact, we're holding a reasonable boundary? And then your coworker can be like, 'We are not torturing this child. We are holding a reasonable boundary.' And for me, that would actually be the thing that would take it out of my body. And the important thing about what you just modeled is you didn't go to a colleague. And. dump negativity about Cassandra's mother. Yeah. No, I didn't. Your father on them. Yeah. No, I didn't. I didn't. I neither said. I neither said to that colleague, wait, Cassandra can't handle it. We have to change the whole plan. Which would just be me carrying on metabolizing the same message. Now my, now my colleagues got to fricking do that calculus. Exactly. And I also didn't say. God, I hate Cassandra's mother. She's always stressing me out. Right, right, right. Or Cassandra's father is always complaining about the school or whatever it is. Yeah. So, so what we're, we're trying to stop the parallel process, which again, it's not, parallel process is not an unhealthy. It is part of human nature. Yes. When you have the ability to have insight into human nature. You can recognize it as it's happening and use it to your advantage. So you can go to your colleague and say, 'Cassandra's parent just called and unloaded a lot. They got me. Rattled about whether our plan is good or just it was a lot— it was an intense phone call. Now I'm like sitting here.

Here's what I need: 35:04

I need you to reassure me that the plan is sane, or I need you to distract me, I need you to tell me a joke, or I need, you know, to just vent for three minutes and then have you. Um, you know, change the subject. Be very clear what just happened to you, not to Cassandra or Cassandra's mom. Tell your colleague what just happened to you. Use I statements. I feel unsure and defensive, and like I might be doing the wrong thing. Right, what is happening to you right now? In the inefficient use of words, tell them what you need. I just had a really intense phone call. I'm feeling like crap. Could you help me? Remind me that we don't suck at what we do. Right, remind me that we're doing the right thing. Yes, and then you've stopped the parallel process because you've brought it into the authentic reality of what's happening. Right now, is that I'm coming to you and telling you exactly what happened and exactly what I need. That colleague can give you what you need, and then you, and then the parallel process can rest. The first person who can use an I statement stops the chain of parallel process. Because even if Cassandra's, I mean, it's not Cassandra's mom's job, right? She's probably not a mental health professional. But actually, it would have landed much differently with you, the school staff, if Cassandra's mom had said. I just need you to reassure me that we're not asking too much of Cassandra. That would have been a totally different conversation, but she wasn't able to do that. So she just said, 'Well, I've seen too much of Cassandra, right?' And now you got to catch that. And then, but if you can turn that into an I statement, you've now. Helped yourself and your colleague, and you've stopped the spread of parallel process. And remember how hard this is to do, because, like trained psychologists who've learned for years and years and years about this. Will not always be able to go to their supervisor and say, 'My client just got really mad at me because I'm chronically late, even though I've never been late before at all.' And I'm feeling totally thrown off by that. Can you help me understand it? No, we often replay. We do a dramatic reenactment. As you said, a dramatic reenactment of what happened. And then we have to pick that apart. So it's hard. It's much easier said than done. But I think that's like whoever can use an I statement first wins. The, the, the role of, I just stopped the parallel process and I brought us in, you know, back in the room to a place where we can rest and let this go. Yeah. Yeah. I love it. Yeah. Cool. So in the show notes, we're going to put the thing about the Ferris wheel bar. And, you know, maybe I'll even find a little Psychology Today article on parallel process if people want to nerd out. Yeah. Absolutely. That sounds great. Yeah. And there's People are working really hard. Kids, parents, school staff are working really hard to not let anxiety win and keep us from the things that we deserve and can do. And it's really powerful. I think I always, whenever I say 'anxiety,' I always do it in quotes because, like, anxiety is. Really powerful. It is really powerful. And as a society, I think right now we're all working together not to be taken over by it, let alone on our school teams and in our families. Yeah. And also, kind of a superpower. There's a lot of great things that anxiety does for us. Oh yeah, no, it's true. It also keeps everyone's cart on all the roads. Yeah, absolutely. Well, thank you, Joelle. Thank you, Anxiety. Thank you, community engagement, as we just try to walk each other home. It's all we're trying to do here. Thank you. I like that. We're trying to walk each other home. We're desperately trying to walk each other. And I'm so glad to be back and we'll see y'all next time. All right, take care. Thanks. Thank you for listening to another episode of Stance of Curiosity. Stance of Curiosity is an unscripted conversation between Jillian Boudreau and Joelle Van Lent. While both are licensed psychologists, this podcast is provided for informational and educational purposes only. The content presented should not be considered a substitute for professional, psychological, medical or mental health advice, diagnosis or treatment. Listeners should always consult with a qualified mental health professional whenever needed for specific concerns or questions related to their personal situation. Stance of Curiosity is produced by Jillian Boudreau and Joelle Van Lent. Our cover art is by Erin Lanute and our music is upbeat indie folk by Twin Music. See you next time.