Plans, Plans and More Plans!

Dedicated, creative, and hardworking school teams make all kinds of plans to support students.  Those plans are created in hopes of inspiring regulation, engagement, and the development of new skills.  Confusion can arise when the intention of the plan has not been emphasized.  Joelle and Gillian discuss the many types of plans that school teams may create, the psychology that informs varied approaches, and the common pitfalls that school teams can fall into in this endeavor.  

Here is a link to the mindfulness-in-schools ideas Gillian mentioned:

Find us on Instagram!

Gillian: https://www.instagram.com/clearconnectionpsychology/

Joelle: https://www.instagram.com/joelle.vanlent/

Transcript

0:27

Hello and welcome back to Stance of Curiosity. I'm Gillian Boudreau. I'm Joelle Van Lent. Hello. Hi. We were just talking about our drastically different climates right now. Joelle is in very, very, very cold Vermont, and we're having right now a pretty temperate winter here in Oregon. What is the temperature in Oregon? I mean, in the winter, it typically hovers between like 35 and 55. But it's been more in the high 40s, low 50s lately. And it was actually quite sunny for a while there, which was very unusual. Usually we have, you know, 40 to 50, but also rainy. Yeah, we have had sun. It has been cold in Vermont, but we have had sun. That is great. I feel like they go together. Like here, if even here, it will get like quote unquote cold, which is maybe it's like almost freezing. But that is when it is sunniest here. I think it's like high pressure systems. Push away the clouds but are cold. Yeah, I don't know. Right, yeah. We probably shouldn't try to explain the weather to people. You don't think we should be armchair meteorologists? No, I mean, we did. We did talk about... Groundhog's Day. We sure did. Last episode. That's probably the farthest that we should go with that. Yeah. Yeah. Yes, it's true. Yep. So I wanted to, we have not talked about this together, so this will be fun. Yeah. I've been having... conversations where I realized that people are confused about... A plan that motivates somebody to engage in non-preferred or challenging or boring tasks. So it's like an incentive plan. versus a regulation plan. Yes. And so... I think what happens is that we create plans all the time, and they're called all kinds of different things. And the basic premise is... This is a student who we have hopefully carefully assessed. is capable of the things that we're asking them to do and we're um, they're not feeling intrinsic motivation to do that so we're going to offer them some kind of like if then you know first or first then Yep. So first maybe you do some writing and then we'll be able to Um, you know, read the graphic novel that you like or whatever it is. Yeah. Or we offer the, you know, if you do 10 things, then we'll do a fun friend break or all of the different behavior plans. But there's other things that I think we actually call the same thing, but they're inherently different. And it creates tension among school teams and communication breakdown. And then people get frustrated because it's like, we don't know if the plan's working because we're not consistently following it. Or people get confused because somebody's on what looks like something that would be an earned break when they haven't actually done anything. I see. Okay. Yep. So we have regulation breaks, which is like, 'No matter what, predictably, we're having a student access. A movement or a calming experience or a sensory break or some kind of Connection with important people, no matter what non-contingent, these things are in your schedule. Yeah. And they're part of how we're helping someone get to and stay closer to a baseline in which they're learning ready and available. They're sort of.' window of tolerance, which is a phrase for a window within which you could tolerate stress and learning. new experiences and challenge and sort of be available. And if you're below the window of tolerance, you're like asleep or too groggy or lethargic. And if you're above the window of tolerance, you're too. elevated or anxious or angry or active, you can't focus. So we're trying to keep people in their window of tolerance and people who have experienced a lot of adversity in the past or now or people who have. you know, various versions of neurodivergence might have a pretty narrow window of tolerance. So one of the ways that we get somebody to and keep them there, and also with having it be non-contingent— no matter what is happening—. We're widening the window of tolerance. It's really important that those experiences are offered predictably, no matter what, often scheduled before times that are less preferred or high in demand, to kind of fill that fuel tank before. Yeah. So what happens is, it can look like, if I'm walking around a school, one student is shooting hoops with an adult that they like, and that could be earned or... you know, scheduled no matter what. And it gets confusing. And so that's where I think it breaks down. And I realized that we're... We're being, those of us who make these plants, are being confusing because we're calling them kind of the same thing. And we're not being clear about like. Is the core function of this to incentivize behavior or is the core function of this to help get them in their window of tolerance and increase that window of tolerance? It's very different. And some people then have both plants. Yes. Which is even more confusing. So I don't know, like, I know that you used to be someone who designed and made all kinds of plans like this. And I wonder if this came up for you and what your... Thoughts might be about how we can help people understand the purpose of non-contingent breaks and how we can be more clear. Yeah, okay, that's a really important point. Yeah, I don't think I ever thought to break them out into incentive plans versus regulation plans. Instead, I think I had always in bold by the end of it at the top of my behavior plans. This is so meek. It's so like hyperverbal, like say less Gillian. But I think I had definitions of all the breaks. So I think I had. because they were actually breaks that could tend toward punitive. There were neutral breaks and there were reinforcement breaks. So if I think about all the breaks I ultimately ended up with. One was... I... I mean, punitive is strong, but basically it. There were breaks that were a must, right? So at the- At the bottom of the kind of. you know, positivity list or happy times list was like an adult-initiated break. Which was usually like, okay, that's when things have gotten to the point where a kid might need to be asked to leave a space. And, you know, we hope to get them to where they have a, at the time I was doing behavior plans for one-on-ones or BIs. So, you know, the hope is that the relationship with the BI is such that this is practiced enough that the child is able to tolerate. Basically, the BI saying, 'Okay, it's at the point where we like need to get out of here and take a breather for a little while.' But those adult-initiated breaks, because of a behavior problem, were definitely the most fraught, because there was a possibility that those could escalate to some kind of escort or something like that, depending on what was going on. Then there is student-initiated break. And I would talk about those as being able to be for any reason. Maybe these are the regulation breaks that you're meaning. And then how I tried to structure those was that they could be taken at any time. But the idea was that they were somewhat boring. So that a kid would probably prefer a boring regulation break. To whatever was happening in the classroom. If they were dysregulated. But once a kid got regulated, we tried to structure those breaks to where, yeah, if you're not upset, this relaxing time is probably going to be much less interesting to you than whatever the other kids are doing literally anywhere else in the school. And then there were reinforcement breaks, which specifically were earned breaks to do something that we know is going to have like high dopamine reward. And that we know is going to be more fun than what's going on in the classroom. And we use those judiciously as, as you're saying, as part of like an incentive plan. I think that was how I used to structure. Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. And now that you're saying that, I'm realizing that there are, in fact, three categories. Now, so, like... So the example you gave was for a BI, like a one-to-one, I could take that to the other end of the continuum and say that some classrooms have a calming corner and a reset and like a reset spot. So like a reset spot is like a chair. Without a lot around it and hopefully it's not like go sit in the corner and show shame, hopefully it's like the reset spot is where you just might need to gather yourself and like. It's kind of like if you were playing a basketball game and you were subbed out for a minute to just gather yourself. You're just briefly benched, yes. Right, exactly, to kind of reset, get your head back in the game. Um, to quote high school musical, um and then um jump back in and that's like hopefully what that chair feels like. And then the calming corner is somewhere that you might go yourself to, and it might have more cushy. kinds of regulation things. And so, That's like the same thing, but the other end of the continuum from the example you gave— like, we're going to ask you to go because you're escalating, versus you're going to self-refer. I think that, when it comes to those first two examples, where you go when you're bubbling up, not at your choice necessarily, and then when you go in a self-referred way, I think those... for many reasons, should be. Often those two categories end up in the same place with the same people in the same routines. Yeah, me too. Yeah. And I used your phrase 'boring, but nurturing' so many times. Like, you definitely should be boring, but nurturing. But the other thing is like, when you only go to those places when you've escalated. Yes, they have a connotation. That's right. Like, if you only see a person or you only see a place or you only see materials when you're escalated, you build an association and those spaces, people, and places are triggering. Yes. I also, I used to have a job where, basically, I only showed up, unfortunately, if the situation had gotten beyond what just one BI could handle. And it was a very interesting thing to sort of be like a Darth Vader figure to so many children. Because, like, you know, I think I was being. Nice. I think I was being pretty, my nice friendly self, but I was only ever paired with a big problem. And it was really fascinating to be in that role. Just like, well, we're going to have to call Dr. B. Like, no, you know, it's like Dr. B is going to do nothing other than. to quietly lead you through some deep breathing and ask you what you need. But I was still, I was still paired with that environment. Yeah. Right, right. So, I think that... It makes sense to me. I've never been a classroom teacher. Thank goodness for the children that I might have. I don't think I would be good at that. I wouldn't either. But... We both spend enough time talking to them, hanging out with them, that we can... sort of put ourselves in their position. And I think it must be very frustrating. To have a student who doesn't necessarily appear escalated or disruptive, but appears as disengaged. Yeah. And then go and have an extra experience that other people are not able to have. And so I think. It's important that we step back and explain. The reasoning behind why it's so important. And one of the concepts that's been most helpful to explain why we would do this in terms of a non-contingent, no matter what regulation break. The first point is what we just said to build those. Associations so those people and places and materials are are connected to calm and regulating. The other is that the... the... Wherever you spend most of your time. In terms of your basic level of regulation. Like I usually do this with a visual, but if you were to imagine a 1 to 10 scale. And one is so calm that you're almost asleep. And 10 is so elevated that you're actively losing it, whatever your version of that is. If it, like, we could assume that, like, the window of tolerance, which means the optimal learning ready state is like a two to a three. Right. On that scale. So if most of your... Most of the time in your day-to-day, week-to-week, month-to-month, over a pretty extended period of time, months to years. Your basic needs are met. You feel a sense of connection and belonging to the people in your primary environments. And you have either the abilities or support that you need to access the task demands or learning, you're going to be in the two to three a lot. And that means it's going to set as your baseline regulation, which means when you're out of that. There's going to be a gravitational pull back toward that. Yeah. baseline. That's what your body's used to. Exactly. So, if I was like, in my baseline, and then somebody like offended me or I realized that I forgot something really important or I lost something, I'm going to go out of that, like I'm going to go up on the 10 scale and then nothing has to actually happen except bad things stop happening. And I will reset back. And so that's the gravitational pull. But if you spend most of your time without your basic needs met, the demands exceed your capacities or level of support. Or you do not feel that you have your connection or belonging. You will be up somewhere in the realm of seven to nine. Yeah, your nervous system will be trained toward a seven to nine. Yeah, so then that becomes your baseline. Mm-hmm. So nothing has to go wrong for you to be there. And if you have a regulatory experience that brings you down to like a three to a four. Nothing has to go wrong for you to pull back up because of your baseline. And in fact, yeah, you will then need regular doses of regulation to come back down to three or four. Yes. I want to just do a tiny carve out here. This is so important, but I just want to do a tiny carve out and talk about mindfulness. Yeah. Because one thing I forgot to say was that sometimes there are planned breaks. Yep. And those planned breaks. Happen on the schedule—so that they cannot possibly be because anybody was having a hard time. And that's often how I will coach folks to like, start like a mindfulness practice with kids or like to really teach some specific, like mindfulness or mind-body tools, because what we really don't want to do is pair those kinds of things that might be very regulatory for the rest of a kid's life. with them feeling like they're in trouble. So the only way we want to actually teach regulatory skills usually is in planned breaks. Because if we just trot those out when a kid's already upset, for one, they won't work. And for two, they'll be like, 'Oh my God, I hate deep breathing.' That's only for bad kids. So it also makes me think about resetting. So there is data that... The more we can increase a person's dispositional mindfulness, so basically— the more mindfulness strategies we do with a person over a period of time. It actually can change their set point or their baseline that you're talking about. It makes them quicker and more likely to down-regulate or reset. From, from a negative experience. So I just wanted to say one, I forgot that there's also planned breaks. Here's how you should use those. So it's like a step up from non-contingent. It's like, not only does nothing, but also. Let's not forget that, yes, many kids do have like now a set baseline of seven to nine, though. concerted effort of mindfulness practice may have the capacity to also bring that baseline down over time. Right. So, if you look at a student's day and you see how often are there naturally scheduled times that they regulate—coming from seven to nine down toward like a three. Yeah. One could be that the whole class does a mindfulness time. One could be that they love PE and the PE teacher. And so that is a time. One could be that they have like a lunch bunch. So you're looking for the times that already happen. And then you're looking for the times where there's a bigger gap. And then that's where you're adding additional Break. So we're not suggesting that you need to create the staffing. And the plan for like eight of these a day, there's going to be a lot of things that are already naturally happening. Like maybe they feel a high sense of confidence with reading and everybody reads for 20 minutes at a certain time. And so bam, you already have something there. Or like for me, it was like music class. Like I think as we've talked about, I was highly dysregulated all the time and I was also making very bad social choices. So I was— My school baseline was probably pretty high stress-wise. both because of my neurotype and because of bad choices I was making. But yeah, for me, it would have been like, you know, music class was a place where I felt competent. And I briefly experienced more belonging from my peers, mostly because that was an area where like, I was competent, you know, and that would have been, yeah, I'm sure that really served for me as a planned break and brought me down, even though I wouldn't have thought about it that way as a kid. Right. So, if you create a plan for additional scheduled non-contingent breaks during those wider spans where there's not a naturally occurring break, I think what I have noticed over the course of my career, I don't have research, so to speak, to support this, but I definitely have a ton of... clinical experience to support this, you can actually bring someone's baseline down from a seven to nine to a four to five, if this is their lived experience, six hours a day, five days a week, year after year. Yes, that school is so powerful that way. Yeah, so it's enough time that you can do that, which is an enormous gift. So we don't want to just have reactive plans for many reasons. They build the associations and also they don't help reset the baseline. When you say mindfulness, I thought it would be helpful for you to talk about the fact that some people, when they do, like a lot of times when you hear mindfulness, people think meditation. Oh, yes. Which is just one example. And some people, when they do a quiet activity where they turn inward, that is very dysregulating. Mm-hmm. So can you talk about that for a minute and then what other examples might be? Yes, I can talk about that for a minute. So when we're doing mindfulness with kids, I don't know if we have ever posted this before. One thing I could put in my, in the show notes for this episode, is my like two pager on like good mindfulness ideas for kids because, because we don't. We really don't, it's not developmentally appropriate to be asking kids to sit quietly and breathe. Hmm-mmm. Especially kids who the whole reason we're trying to address their baseline is because their lived experience when they're quiet is pretty intense and dysregulated. We don't want to just make a person marinate in that. So what the research shows us is for kids. I mean, of course, surprise, surprise, we want to focus on shorter doses of mindfulness, but we also really want to focus on like the sensory environment. So we want to keep them. Mindfulness just means focused on the present moment. But it does not have to mean focused on our internal experience. And in fact, it shouldn't in times where we already know our internal experience is pretty dysregulated. So like... Five, four, three, two, one— sensory exercise. That's a real classic. Five things you can see, four things you can hear, three things you're touching, two things you can smell, one thing you can taste. Having like a bunch of like different textures that you can bring into a space and just like feel with a kid and everybody kind of talks about like what each one feels like. Um, having kids maybe get to know their interoception or their ability to kind of feel their internal experience a little better. But by having them check their pulse, right? And you have to actually really focus on yourself to be able to feel your pulse. And then like, you know, maybe it can be math too. Maybe they can sort of count their heartbeats per minute with help. Then maybe they go do wind sprints. Because sometimes a dysregulated kid, mindfulness will be how present they can be with how fast they're running. When they're running fast, that feels so good to their flight system. And then maybe we have— them take their pulse again, right? So it's also sometimes even with stressed out educators, mindfulness for me looks like standing everyone up and doing something really active, like inhale your arms up high and then exhale, pull them down to your sides and go. And maybe we do that in rhythm for five minutes. Mindfulness doesn't have to look quiet and it doesn't have to focus internally. It actually sometimes needs to be compelling. And sensory rich enough that it draws us into the present moment. Yep. And, and when. a student has like a whole bunch of teachers over the course of their school years. And all of those teachers model. Varied ways of mindfulness. That's beautiful. That's what we want. Yeah, we don't actually want consistency in this realm because we want kids to feel like they learned 25 different ways of being mindful from 25 different people. Yes. I've seen things that are loosely in that category, such as kids, middle schoolers. That come in from being outdoors and have a podcast that they listen to for five minutes and like a mystery podcast. And we get five to 10 minutes of it. And that is a down-regulating experience. And then... Um, you know, afterwards, they do some kind of an orientation like this. It's like where we are, and what we're doing, and what our next task is, and coloring, and yoga, and knitting, and sewing, and there's so many different examples that I see as a meander through schools and classrooms. high school teacher who, in the middle of a 90-minute block, had a magic time break. And he would stop and teach everybody to do a magic trick. And they would try to figure out how he did it. And then he would pack it all up and move on. And I think it's just thinking about... How are we including that in the rhythm of the day for everybody? And then... What? What individuals might need a little bit more of that? It's I think it's a lot where I think we're tripping over each other when we're not being really clear about what the function and the goal is of that. Yes. Of these opportunities. Yeah. Yeah. Do you think that more and more we're moving away from specifically like reinforcement breaks? No. Okay. I see them all the time. Got it. Because I feel like... Um, Well, I work a lot with PDA. Right? Pathological demand avoidance. Wait, what's the other persistent drive for autonomy? Persistent drive for autonomy, which we like better. Yes. So, I mean, with those kind of kids, I think that... external motivation or like a reward system is really falling falling out of favor because... Mm-hmm. You know, if you're a person who above all, really does not want external contingencies placed on you or really doesn't want to be coerced or controlled. Being given a reward is going to make you want to be like, 'screw that reward.' I don't want that actually. Right. Yeah, absolutely. And I think there are kids also who don't necessarily have that same PDA temperament, but have had adults be unsafe, adult roles of authority or caregiving. And so when a behavior plan is introduced to them, they're immediately on guard and trying to figure out whether what it means and what it's all about by testing it. And so there are absolutely students where that kind of traditional, if you do this, then you can do that. Is actually destabilizing and creates more resistance and it triggers them. And as you said, episodes ago when we talked about PDA directly, you talked about the feeling of being, what was it? Startled, trapped. Yeah. Startled, trapped, or shamed. Uh-huh. Startled, trapped, or shamed. So a behavior plan that's based on incentivizing could make you feel startled, trapped, or shamed and inspire you to test it or resist it. Yes. And so, and I think if adults have not been consistently safe, the same thing could happen. And I actually have had fascinating conversations. With um, with students who say, well, this is just bribery. You're just bribing me. And I think that we never want people to feel like we're coercing them. So it's very important to be transparent, to include the student in the development of the plan if they're able to do that and recognize when they're just absolutely not appropriate. Like we, we're better than that, right? Like we, we recognize that these are one of the tools in our toolbox that are going to absolutely not work for some people. And then for those individuals, I would say scheduled no matter what. Breaks to increase their sense of regulation and learning readiness is the way to go. Yes. So I think I wanted to bring that up. I love how you said that. You know, almost in the interest of fairness, right? Because if I'm thinking about, you know, if I'm a staff member and I'm seeing, um, one kid shooting hoops with a preferred adult. And, um, I don't have reason to believe that that kid, quote unquote, earned that. But maybe I know that another kid, who I care about, would have to earn something or would have to do something to be able to get that break. You know, it's, I think, the important thing to remember there is that. This is all about what's going to help each kid the most. Right. And certain nervous systems actually do need an incentive. Like ADHD can be like that. Like I, I'm not actually a huge fan of external reinforcement. But wow, have I spoken to countless, even ADHD adults. Right who who sometimes even are looking for like punishment who are like a therapist. Jillian, therapist. Jillian, can you just tell me though that you'll be disappointed in me if I don't put my laundry away before next time, because otherwise I can't, I can't manufacture the urgency to get my brain to do it. Right. So certain brains, especially those with ADHD, almost need the construction of a reward system. Mm-hmm. To manufacture enough, like, you know, focus or urgency or accountability to get something done. So some kids might say. No, I need to feel like I have to get this done in order to shoot hoops with this preferred person or else I just can't find the motivation. Whereas other kids, if they were super self-aware, might say, 'Yeah, no— I have to have access to this all the time or else my whole body and brain is going to revolt against ever doing anything that anyone in the school tells me to do, even though I might not want that to happen.' uh... So it's just interesting. Some kids benefit from having to earn things and other kids really don't. And so it's— It's a really interesting question of fairness. Yeah. And I have two thoughts about that. One is... In my experience, time and time again, the adults are way more worried about fairness than the kids. Yes. I think kids are so used to people having different things and plans and all of that, that they [often] don't realize that if the adult is confident in, in like, answering the question, like, 'What? How come they get that and I don't?' If you respond with 'Because here we meet everybody's needs and that's not always the same.' Mm-hmm. And then you invite them to this. Do not feel fair and look squirrely. Then they're going to be like, 'Oh.' Okay, hold on, Joelle. Just because you cut out for one second. Okay. We'll edit it out. That's fine. Can you go back to saying? Um... If adults are confident in their answer. Right. So if the adults are confident, so for example, if I say, 'How come they get to do that and I don't? And my answer is because in this community. Everyone's needs are met and that's not always the same. Or because that's their plan and your plan is a bit different. We all are a community where people might have different plans. If you seem calm and confident in the answer, then kids usually feel like, 'Okay, they know what they're doing, they're calm and confident, all is well here, and they move on.' But if you're appearing squirrely or uncertain and saying, 'Things like, I know it might not feel fair and I don't really know either,' then they're like, 'Well, something's up here. Like, I have found something that this adult does not feel is quite right. Or I might be able to get something. care,' then they're going to pursue that. So I think, first of all, I don't think kids are as worried about that. Definitely there are situations where kids are. Hypervigilant around issues of perceived unfairness and then we just want to be confident about that. The other thing is that... When it comes to the idea of, like, that... I totally forgot what I was going to say. I had another point there, but it's gone. Okay. Fairness. I will come back to that. Adults feeling worried about it. Yeah, they will. Uh... Wow. No, it's just really gone. Okay. Okay. Yeah, okay. So, I mean, so far today, we've elucidated the several types of breaks that can exist. And the reasons for all of them. Yep. And we've also talked about how to handle it if it feels like one kid has to earn a given thing. And another kid has just given it. Right. And how to frame that in the sense that, yeah, this isn't like an actual currency system. It's not really that objectively. Basketball with a well, you know, with it. Preferred adult costs a word sort. In some ways, we're just trying to create contingency. For brains that need that. But in other cases, creating contingency will make things worse. I mean, that's really the answer here, I think. And there are... I think there are situations where you can create a no-fail plan that might do many things. Ooh, I love, yeah, go ahead. It's like, It could sort of like shift someone's reactivity to having a plan, or it could just be a way to support. So I have taken the idea of like a check-in, check-out, and instead of saying, 'Here's your goal.' And if you do this 7 out of 10 times, you'll earn something—pride, or recognition, or a tangible thing. Yeah. Instead of that, I've said your goal is to take care of yourself. And to let us know what you need in... in safe and direct ways. I love that. The adult's job, there's like, there'll be like maybe like six boxes below that. I took care of myself. I let adults know what I needed in six boxes underneath both. And the adult's job is to find six examples of them doing each within the day. And they can't, the adults cannot not do that. Oh, that's amazing. Right. So like, basically, all we're doing is showing them this is what we were looking for. This is what we were looking for. This is what we were hoping. For. So you're just saying, thanks. I heard your words. Thank you. I'm going to write that down. Or you drank water. Great job. That's hydrating your body. You moved and played. Nice job. You told me that this was too hard for you and in very direct ways. Thank you. You put your paper back on my desk, not completed. Which was very respectfully and directly letting me know that you didn't feel like you could do it right now. For a student who might otherwise rip it up or scream, that's progress. I'm very directly communicating that this is not going. To work for me right now, right? So we're meeting people where they are, right? So it's like you find six examples of each and then you're not— I'm not giving them anything. There's no— incentive so it's just like at the end of the day we're saying we're so proud of you you took care of yourself and you let us know what you needed if they have caregivers that that's going to be meaningful to we send a picture of that home And then we just keep doing it. And so basically that's a no-fail plan and you're not really earning anything. You're just recognizing that. And it has worked for lots of kids where the more traditional incentivizing plan is backfiring. That is, I think that's revolutionary. And that we should all use that. I love it. And I love too that it asks the educators to find opportunities where this is happening, but it makes me almost think of like a gratitude practice. Where if we know we have to write down three good things that happen in the day, it'll force our brain to focus there, even if... Otherwise, that would not be where we would be focusing. And that increases people's mood. And I think it also will likely increase people's feelings of positivity toward a student or toward how things are going. Yeah, they have to. Find some examples of this, even if they have to stretch over the course of a day. That's really fantastic. And stressed people are inherently self-oriented. Of course. And so the plan is basically showing you by the titles. I want you to be cared for and I want your needs to be met. So we're just going to keep highlighting examples of that. And it really... lowers if it was somebody with a PDA temperament or somebody with contending with current or past trauma or somebody who's anxious, somebody who's depressed. somebody who has varied neurodivergent presentation. It could work for any of those people where it's like, this is the goal of this plan is that your needs are met. And that is first and foremost our priority. It makes most people feel much calmer and safer in that environment and therefore more available for challenge. And so you're just sort of proving to them. First, we care about you and that your needs are met and we want you to be taking care of yourself. Once that's on a steady trend, then you could think about whether it might be helpful to shift to a different type of plan or not. Like there are some people who are never going to respond well to that incentive plan. I don't really like absolutes when it comes to strategies for kids. Like I don't want to say we should never use an incentivizing behavior plan again. They're inherently bad. They're very good when implemented well, thoughtfully. By people who are trained to do that. Know that that's not going to work for everybody. And can they be, most of our approaches can be counterproductive or highly productive. It's all based on. If they're implemented, you know, as intended with with that integrity. And if they're fitting the kid, right? Which means are we keeping an eye on how this is working or not working once we put it in place? Yeah. And we can take accountability if, like, we... If we offer somebody an incentive plan, it makes things far worse. We can say, 'Boy, I was really trying to help and I do not.' I made things worse. Yeah. Oh, I've had to talk to countless kids about that. If a plan I made failed miserably. Yeah. And walk stuff back. Well, I think this is great. I think we've really unpacked 'What breaks? Can do' and when to use which. I think this is like the 'Breaks' episode. Great. Yep. That's awesome. I used to say 'break the break habit.' We have one such episode. We do? Oh, okay, good. People can look back on break-to-break habits. This was like, um, 'Use plants wisely. Use plants wisely. That's right.' And if you are going to use breaks, here's how to use them. Yeah, that's right. I love it. Well, thanks, Joelle. Wonderful to talk with you as always. Great to be here with you all, our lovely listeners, and we will catch you next time. All right. Bye, everybody. Bye. Thank you for listening to another episode of Stance of Curiosity. Stance of Curiosity is an unscripted conversation between Gillian Boudreau and Joelle Van Lent. While both are licensed psychologists, this podcast is provided for informational and educational purposes only. The content presented should not be considered a substitute for professional, psychological, medical, or mental health advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Listeners should always consult with a qualified mental health professional whenever needed for specific concerns or questions related to their personal situation. Stance of Curiosity is produced by Jillian Boudreau and Joelle Van Lent. Our cover art is by Aaron Lanoue, and our music is upbeat indie folk by Twin Music. See you next time.