Forage Program with AK Nutrition Consultant Joe Sparrow

In this episode, Mike Donaldson discusses dairy nutrition and forage management with Joe Sparrow, a nutrition consultant at Agri-King. They explore the shift from traditional alfalfa to small grains in dairy diets, the advantages of using small grains, and the importance of digestible fiber. Joe shares insights on creating the ideal dairy diet, the unique challenges faced by dairymen in the southern U.S., and Agri-King's innovative approach to nutrition. The conversation emphasizes the need for adaptability in dairy farming and the pursuit of optimal cow comfort and nutrition.

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Transcript

Chris Radke (00:02)
Welcome to AK Podcasts where we explore science and nutrition behind livestock care and management with the best in the brightest in the business. I'm your host, Chris Radke, part of the Sales Department here at Agri-King and with me today is the Director of Field Services, a member of the Sales Management Team, Mr. Mike Donaldson. Mike, how you doing buddy?

Mike Donaldson (00:19)
Hey, outstanding, Chris. Starting to move on into fall. The days are getting a little more comfortable in this part of the world. So all good, very good.

Chris Radke (00:27)
Yeah, cooling down, cooling down. I get excited about the, maybe not necessarily fall, because it means winter's coming, but the events that happen in the fall. love the football and all the, I guess, harvest activities and whatnot. So pretty exciting times. Cool, cool. Hey, Mike, who's with us and what are we talking about today?

Mike Donaldson (00:39)
Absolutely, absolutely.

Chris, today we have another episode talking about the different approaches dairies can take to their forage and nutrition programs. We're joined by Agri-King Nutrition Consultant, Joe Sparrow. Joe, would you give us a little bit about your background, where you're located, where you're based, kind of just, I guess your elevator speech, if you were just going to tell somebody on an elevator who and what you do.

Joe Sparrow (01:09)
It's going to be a long elevator ride. My name is Joe Sparrow. I was born and raised in a small town in north central Kentucky. Went to college at Virginia Tech upon graduation. I went into the nutrition business and later joined a feed company as a dairy nutritionist. Worked there for 15 years and I have been employed at Agri-King.

Mike Donaldson (01:11)
Ha

Joe Sparrow (01:35)
for three months and three days and maybe even three hours at this point. ⁓ In addition to doing dairy nutrition work, my family, my mom, my dad, my two brothers, my wife, my kids and I have our own registered Brown Swiss herd in Oenton. We milk about 50 registered Brown Swiss, do a lot of showing, marketing, travel across the country. We'll be headed up to Wisconsin here in a month or so.

And ⁓ we actually just put in a Lely robot about 60 days ago. So that's what I get to do on weekends when I'm working during the week and sometimes on the weekend as well. I work for Agri-King in a territory that's pretty wide. So I travel as far as ⁓ far west Indiana all the way to Raleigh, North Carolina. So it's probably seven, 800 mile swath covering most of the southeast. ⁓

Indiana, Kentucky, Tennessee, North Carolina, South Carolina would be the primary states that I've been servicing.

Mike Donaldson (02:36)
Outstanding. That is a pretty good sized area. Well, what we asked Joe to talk about, I mean, there's no doubt that across almost all dairies, corn silage keeps playing a bigger and a bigger part of the forage program. If you missed it, did a podcast with another one of our nutrition consultants where Freddie Urquia spoke about a corn silage and predominantly alfalfa hay or haylage program.

Joe Sparrow (02:39)
Yes, sir.

Mike Donaldson (03:06)
And that's great for that's a good program and the part of the world you happen to be in, but that's not everybody's answer. There's different things going on in different areas. And there's an increasing trend across a lot of the country to move either a lot or a little away from that alfalfa or grass background, the perennial forages, and start doing more with annual crops. So Joe, to get us started.

What do you see as the advantages in your world to using small grains or an annual forage instead of a hay crop?

Joe Sparrow (03:46)
So I guess to really dive into that, I don't want to sound like an anti-Alpha nutritionist, but I will say that I'm an anti-Lignin nutritionist. And in our part of the world, Alpha  is known for its Lignin content. And that's something that I guess we really struggle with in the South. Intakes, dry matter intakes are a challenge for probably five months out of the year on average. And Lignin in my experience,

is not something that helps increase dry matter intakes. So with that being said, I guess that probably lays the groundwork for why we have shifted away from alfalfa in addition to freight charges. You know, when I started in this business 15 years ago, probably a third to a half of my herds purchased Western alfalfa hay. Well, if you look at the cost of diesel transportation in those last 15 years, you know, that's essentially

what's made the alfalfa price out of rations. So we were kind of forced, ⁓ our hands been forced to feed ingredients that are closer, ⁓ less distance traveled is what we're kind of forced to do. So with that being said, obviously alfalfa has phased out of ⁓ most all of my lactating diets at this point, probably less than 10% of the herds are still feeding alfalfa. ⁓ So that.

obviously opens up a hole in some of these rations for what I call a longer stem, a cud chew in type, ⁓ some other energy source, fiber source in the ration. And it's even better if it's a source that a farmer can grow. So as we talked about with the heat and the humidity that we have in the South, that also brings a challenge to what varieties of corn that we can grow. So I am a huge fan of BMR corn silage.

But the problem is the dairyman in me ⁓ likes it, the nutritionist in me likes it even more. It's just harder to grow when you can't control water and year in, year out, you struggle with precipitation. know, corn likes humidity, corn likes heat, but it also requires rainfall. And that's something that ⁓ we can't guarantee in our part of the world, year in, year out. No one can guarantee, but... ⁓

In this part, it just becomes a lot more dicey as to how that plant can grow. So corn silage is king. Corn silage will always be king, but the king has some suitors at the table for, I think, compliments. And that's where I guess I've expanded the realm of what we've been feeding. And naturally, double cropping rotation in our part of the world because of the length of warm days that we get,

It makes small grains almost a no-brainer. I would say probably 85 to 90% of my diets were feeding some level of small grains. Now, whether that makes you... Go ahead. Sorry, Mike.

Mike Donaldson (06:48)
So, well,

I just gonna say to back up half a step, I think I understood what you meant, but to kind of underline it, one of the issues you run into with growing alfalfa is you're getting a real high lignin crop. Did I catch that part right? Okay, so, and it's funny when you, I mean,

Joe Sparrow (06:54)
Yes?

100 % Yes, absolutely.

Mike Donaldson (07:15)
I drive through where you live, I've never lived there, but I don't think of that, know, the Carolinas, Virginia, I never think of those areas as particularly dry or that you're going to have trouble with drought. How many years in five, and I realize too much rain can be as bad as too little, but how many years in five would you typically worry about having enough water?

Joe Sparrow (07:26)
Yes.

I would say it's in the extremes of my territory, the far west part of Indiana and the far south. You know, I worked down to Newbury, South Carolina, star South Carolina is probably as far south as I've gone, which is basically touching Georgia. And so when you get down there, ⁓ those parts, it seems like some portion of July, August, early September, we're battling a drought and Kentucky and Tennessee, ⁓ you know, maybe two to three years out of five.

Mike Donaldson (07:54)
Okay.

Joe Sparrow (08:09)
we're battling some sort of drought. And it just depends on, you know, what part of that plant's life cycle the drought hits. So this year, this year I've had about a split. Half of my territory had perfect rainfall through the plant's growing season and the rainfall shut off right after pollination. So all that we really battled with is that corn's drying faster than we think it should or the plant's moving faster than the kernel.

Mike Donaldson (08:19)
huh.

Joe Sparrow (08:39)
And then the other 50% of my territory, it was a disaster for the early part of growing season, extreme drought, and we've dealt with an extreme rainfall since. So it really just is feast or famine. And it's the dairyman in me, guess, or the farmer in me that complains about the weather all the time.

Mike Donaldson (08:59)
Well, I that's one of those. I'm not even going to try to go into the cliches and jokes about farmers and whether it just, uh, there's, there's a reason they're so common and that's cause they're all true. So before I interrupted you, we're starting to go into some, talk about small grains. So you're predominantly going with a fault. You talked about your longer growing season. You're predominantly then using a fall planted.

Joe Sparrow (09:10)
Absolutely.

Mike Donaldson (09:25)
grows over, not grow over the winter, but an overwintering crop, more than a spring planted small grain.

Joe Sparrow (09:32)
Absolutely. Most of my clients will be, you know, they're finishing up corn chopping right now or have been over the last couple of weeks and our triticale, ryegrass, wheat, whatever that is, barley, rye, that stuff will start going in the ground immediately. it September and October, no rest for the weary. We go straight from corn chopping to planting these small grains to harvest for silage next year.

And I ran through the list. ⁓ We're really getting creative and some companies are making out some exciting concoctions of different products. know, have dabbled with some vetch, some ⁓ different types of clover, peas. We're really getting some exciting things. But at the end of the day, it all goes back to, in my opinion, kind of a wheat, a rye, a barley, or some variation of that. You know, we're getting more and more.

of these combo crops, a wheat and a ryegrass, a triticale and a ryegrass, a barley and oats, some kind of concoction, which ⁓ I'm a big fan of simply because we go back to talking about weather. This crop is traditionally ready sometime between say early April and maybe mid May, depending on where you're located, rainfall, nitrogen application, when you planted it and what.

You know barley is going to be ready before a ryegrass. So what I like about pairing these up is that it kind of gives you a little bit of an insurance coverage because let's say for example my crop this year, the Triticale was getting borderline mature but the ryegrass wasn't quite ready yet. So you know all my eggs weren't in one basket when they're dual planted like that and it makes for a safer harvest window in my opinion.

to harvest a crop that we can feed lactating cows. And I think the beauty of small grains is that it's almost an all purpose crop. If it does get too mature, ⁓ it makes a great heifer feed. Really, if you look at the fiber components, a little bit more protein than corn silage, a little bit less energy than a corn silage for heifers. And then I've got some farmers that'll make specific ⁓ fields.

for dry cows. know, these will be fields that won't get manure applications. These will be fields that maybe they want to wait and let get mature to come back with some beans or something, you know, depending on the rotation. So it's a flexible crop when we're talking about small grains, but ⁓ it's easier to grow in this part because the one thing you never struggle with is a dry winter. So these crops, you know, they'll survive through the winter. For the most part, we've seen some extreme

Mike Donaldson (12:16)
Okay.

Joe Sparrow (12:22)
know, cold sessions where maybe there wasn't any snow on the ground as an insurance barrier kind of for some ryegrass that may be a little bit more of a tender crop. But they're usually pretty hardy through the winter if you get stand up and then they're going to grow and maintain through the winter and be ready to take off in the spring.

Mike Donaldson (12:42)
So I'm not gonna hold you up as an agronomist, although I'm sure you know more about it than I do, that's fine. But I'm not trying to drag you into something you're not. From the standpoint of selecting what I wanna grow, you mentioned the popularity of mixing in one field. Is that a better fit?

Joe Sparrow (12:51)
I get it.

Mike Donaldson (13:09)
than having a field of triticale or a field of barley, separate fields of separate crops or the combination in one field.

Joe Sparrow (13:18)
I like the combo products ⁓ and I guess the main reason I recommend them is because of the harvest window. know, from an agronomy side, I guess I'll plead the fifth because I think it really depends. You know, for example, I think ryegrass can be one of the harder ⁓ crops on, you know, from an agronomy side, but ⁓ I like the dual crops because I think it gives you a little bit more window at harvest. And you know, if you look at, you know, I've seen some Triticale get up in the

north of 15, 16, 17 protein. And I almost get to the point that I stop looking at protein content of small grains because so many farmers judge the small grains based on it. Well, my wheat was 19% protein this year. Well, that's great. What was our digestible fiber like? What was our tons of fiber per acre? Because at the end of the day, protein is not what I really desire out of it. What I desire out of it is a digestible fiber, something that we can complement.

corn silage with depending on how great either one are but it gives you a little bit longer stem. know a non-starch a little less acidic energy source. I'm a big digestible fiber fan and you know these these crops don't have to battle humidity and humidity in my opinion affects digestible fiber. So this is a product that grows mostly in cool weather and it probably never sees 80 degree days.

And so the stress that this crop grows under, ⁓ I think is the reason for the increased digestible fiber.

Mike Donaldson (14:52)
Yeah, I think that's one of the things that ⁓ I continue to be fascinated by how quickly people judge everything but corn silage on protein

And then, and the match to that is on corn silage, they want to make it all about starch. it might, maybe starch is a little more important than corn silage, but I don't want to go out and chop something that could have been combined.

Joe Sparrow (15:05)
Yes.

Mike Donaldson (15:21)
just to brag about having 50% starch. I've got, I'm gonna feed straw and corn grain. That seems a bad approach for a ruminant. And it can be hard to get people to pull back and you really get, you've got to pick your audience. When you start, I would say that often that, you know, protein's cheap. And that's the end of the discussion. Cause someone's like, tie them out. How stupid are you? Because soybean meal is gonna cost, well, soybean meal costs you a fraction.

Joe Sparrow (15:45)
Yeah.

Mike Donaldson (15:50)
making up for poor quality fiber costs you. But it's not the way the world seems to be trained to think too often.

Joe Sparrow (15:53)
Absolutely.

Absolutely, and if you the other part of that conversation is and maybe we're getting off the track of forages But we're not feeding 18 and 19 percent protein diets anymore, or I'm not so you know it we don't I guess we're not stuck to a number in my opinion of a target to hit for protein

Mike Donaldson (16:14)
Yeah. Yeah. No, I think, and I think the thing that, the thing that is slowly happening, but I've always appreciated at Agri-King is that we're not, we're not apologizing. We're not evading the fact that they're ruminants. Let's, let's get everything. Let's grow microbial protein. I don't care what the feed going in is. What's that going to produce for her? And then we'll supplement the way we need to. It's no, I do think there's

Joe Sparrow (16:29)
You're right.

Agreed.

Mike Donaldson (16:42)
Some of our competitors in the milk cow world would really prefer if we could breed the rumens out of these animals and just feed them like pigs and chickens, which seems a waste. But anyways, now we're really getting far off track. So having said that protein is not the best benchmark for evaluating a small grain forage and maybe you need

Maybe you're going to have slightly different ranges for the different crops, but give us an idea of what you would like that small grain feed. And if it means barley's this and ryegrass is this, absolutely, whatever you want to do. But if you were on my farm, sampled my feed, and now you're coming back to telling me this is good, greater, and different, what would be the parameters that you'd be showing me to prove that?

Joe Sparrow (17:37)
So I've been for the last 15 years ⁓ using the TT NDFD. It's a total track NDF digestibility, know, the four points of fiber digestibility. And I've kind of used that as a benchmark. Obviously any L still factors into it. ADF NDF are very important critters to watch on that piece of paper. But I think it's, you you almost have to have four or five different data points and kind of pro rate them or rank them in order of how you prioritize them. And so I've been

yapping about digestible fiber, and that is ⁓ probably number one. And protein is important. All that talk slamming it, it is important because at the end of the day, usually that's gonna go hand in hand with immaturity, which is gonna go hand in hand with the more digestible fiber. Now there's some folks that apply nitrogen almost specifically to raise the protein. And at the end of the day, if we're gonna feed urea, let's put it in at the mill or in the

mixer wagon, let's not put it on the plant and then try to insulate and then try to add it because of the dangers that it can bring is my philosophy. So I think the fiber digestibility would be the number one parameter to watch in terms of a benchmark to set. I think protein is there. I mean, if you can get some ADFs down in the low 30s on some small grains, NDFs probably in the upper 40s. And you know, the nice thing about that is you're talking about numbers.

that are not atypical from corn silage. I mean, there's a lot of corn silage that I'll test this year. Some I've already tested that's in the upper 40s NDF and in the low mid 30s on ADF. it presents a nice little compliment to the corn silage from a fiber standpoint. Obviously you're getting sugars. The sugars are going to be in there, probably not going to be five, 6%, but they'll definitely be higher than corn silage. ⁓

Mike Donaldson (19:35)
Mm-mm.

Joe Sparrow (19:36)
You'll see some starch, know, if that stuff gets mature, but where the starch comes in, my fiber digestibility goes away. So.

Mike Donaldson (19:44)
Yeah, I, I, I got to the point when I was doing more work in the field, I'd actually described corn silage as being a, a sort of a TMR you brought in in a wagon from the field because I was trying to catch, I was trying to catch my starch at a decent point, but before the quality of the plant had dropped too low. And it was kind of like, kind of like having two feeds. In fact, way back when I actually had a guy that had trouble.

Joe Sparrow (20:05)
Absolutely.

Mike Donaldson (20:13)
didn't have great corn ground and he grew ⁓ a, I don't remember what it was. It was a grass, was a perennial grass. He would make great, great haylage. And then he bought wet corn from a neighbor and put it in a little harvest store. And I always said he made the best corn silage in the entire world in his TMR mixer, because he took that high quality grass hay, grass haylage, and mixed it with the right amount of corn grain. And you could never do it right in a corn field.

Joe Sparrow (20:33)
Yeah.

Absolutely, yeah.

Mike Donaldson (20:44)
I'm going to ask you at the end to sort of lay out what your dream diet might be. But short of that, if I'm one of your people, typical person, what do you normally see me giving you to work with as far as how much of the forage is going to be from corn silage and how much from a small grain silage?

Joe Sparrow (20:50)
Okay.

So ⁓ corn silage is king, as I said earlier, and it is, I probably should sit down and do a exact a number, but I'd say it's probably in every single herd I'm feeding right now for lactating cows. And so I would say corn silage is king. ⁓ Small grains are in at least two thirds of my diets in some form or fashion. Now quality dictates inclusion and the corn silage available

dictates inclusion of small grains. So if small grains is in two thirds, the other thing that's really popped up and in my eyes is very exciting is the sorghums. know, some, I'm going to lump it all in a sorghum category. And obviously there's direct cuts. There's what you would call, I guess, a summer annual, like a BMR, Sudangrass, BMR Millet, ⁓ and those kinds of concoctions and some variation of that.

probably represents, ⁓ I'm gonna say is in a third of my diets at this point. And it's another nice compliment ⁓ depending on what the farmers got in terms of land availability, maybe some of their geography, maybe some of what they could irrigate, the beauty of a true sorghum, whether it's a brachitic dwarf or ⁓ some kind of BMR sorghum, something that gets direct cut.

⁓ those crops will never have the energy content of a great corn silage. But if you look at the cost per ton, the cost per ton of digestible fiber, ⁓ the nutrient costs, and also the rainfall requirements, it's really comparable. And I think that's where it's ⁓ almost forced its hand and forced a lot of dairyman's hands to consider it.

Mike Donaldson (22:46)
Mm-hmm.

Joe Sparrow (23:08)
And then we've got this beauty of if you push the envelope and triple crop, you you take a small grains off early, you put a, maybe a shorter season corn out and you're chopping corn silage in middle of July, you've got time to plant a sorghum crop. Sorghum does better in July than it does in May. It needs heat and it's a resilient, tough crop. So I'm going to say some kind of variation of a sorghum is in probably a third of my diets.

Mike Donaldson (23:25)
Bye.

Yeah.

Joe Sparrow (23:37)
So from a forage standpoint, and I guess I should include straw. Straw ⁓ is in probably half of my diet. So I would say a typical diet is gonna be a corn silage and either a small grains haylage or some variation of a sorghum and most likely some kind of straw. That's gonna be the, if we're making pancake batter, that's the three ingredients I probably get to put in and stir from a forage side.

Mike Donaldson (24:07)
You mentioned before that, know, corn, corn isn't corn. You mentioned BMR, the pluses and the minuses. Any other thoughts on corn? mean, have you seen some advantages with maybe a silage hybrid short of being a BMR or what would, once again, I'm your client. What would you lead me to be planning for my corn silage?

Joe Sparrow (24:32)
So, you know, I got a text yesterday from a dairyman that was prepaying for corn for next year, which is crazy because he hasn't even chopped yet and we're picking out varieties. But I love it because I love being involved in that discussion. And the first place I'm going to go is digestible fiber. You know, and in this specific one, was NDF 30 that he gave me. And so we walked or I walked through there as I was in the drop off line to drop my boys off at school. We were picking up.

Mike Donaldson (24:41)
Yeah

Joe Sparrow (25:01)
I'm picking out corn varieties for next year. And I want a digestible fiber, obviously starch. know, starch is important, starch is king, but the beauty of this year is, every year is different. We're not going to be paying $300 a ton for fine ground corn in my territory this year. So, you know, if we're going to look at something that costs money, I was given a quote from a dairyman that citrus pulp was going to cost $350 a ton.

Mike Donaldson (25:20)
Mm-hmm.

Joe Sparrow (25:30)
And so that's a digestible fiber and a sugar source. And ground corn is going to be about half that. So when you're making pancakes, when you're constructing a diet, ⁓ there's limitations. If you've got an NFC number, an energy calculation number that you want to hit, a sugar plus starch plus soluble fiber, there's a max in my eyes to what starch levels you want to feed. And so you need something else to add to that.

corn is $170 a ton, maybe we don't need to focus on a 40% starch corn salad. Maybe we need to focus on growing a forage that's gonna help make up that other number to get up to our sum of our parts to get that NFC up, to get that sugar plus starch plus soluble fiber number to where we wanna get it to. Because the difference in $30 or excuse me, 30% starch.

corn silage and 35% starch corn silage may not be as drastic as 36 TTNDFD corn and 46 TTNDFD corn because of what it takes to replicate or replace that digestible fiber in the diet. Is that making sense? You follow my drift?

Mike Donaldson (26:44)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, no, absolutely. Let's go a step further on that path and say either I'm going to be short on forage or I need a better quality fiber because whatever led to me not having the forage I'd like to have. In your world, you mentioned citrus pulp. ⁓ They don't feed a lot of citrus pulp in Michigan, just like you don't feed a lot of beet pulp.

Joe Sparrow (27:12)
No.

Mike Donaldson (27:14)
But in

Joe Sparrow (27:14)
Correct.

Mike Donaldson (27:15)
your world, what are your go-to sources for a fiber to either replace some forage or to kickstart some poor quality forage?

Joe Sparrow (27:26)
Absolutely. Good question. So, you we've got multiple non-forged fibers, some dry and some wet. And some of my favorite ⁓ is the wet kinds. So citrus is an ingredient that I love. The problem is, the folks that grow it aren't making as much money and the weather's not allowing them to do as well. So the supplies have gotten tighter, therefore the price has gotten higher. And I think that's probably an ingredient that we're going to slowly...

phase out of or cut back rates of instead of feeding four pounds of dry matter to some of these herds we may be stuck to feed two. And cotton seed, whole cotton seed is an ingredient that some folks hate, some folks love, and I guess I take it for what it is. You know, it is a non-forged fiber that cows love to eat. It's a healthy, chewing fiber source that also brings some energy to it and also brings 20% protein to it. So

It's got a place in most all of my diets. I would say two thirds of my herds are feeding whole cottonseed. Soy holes are an ingredient that continues to pop up and get more popular. ⁓ And we've got several different locations throughout my trade area where soy holes are distributed from. So that's an ingredient that I get to feed a lot of. guess those would probably be the three main dry ingredients and that's excluding

obviously the start sources. Don't feed lot of wheat mids, but it would probably go in the order of citrus cotton and soy hulls in terms of dry, quote unquote, non-forged fibers. And each is bringing something different to the table. And I probably use each different ⁓ as needed. Or if a farmer's close ⁓ specifically to a soy hull plant, and we may get a great price on soy hulls, know, farmers are close to a cotton gin, we get a great price on cotton seed.

Mike Donaldson (28:56)
Mm-hmm.

Joe Sparrow (29:24)
So we gotta adapt to our surroundings from that standpoint. On the wet side is where it really gets fun. ⁓ I guess I would say in central Kentucky, we're known for basketball, horses, and bourbon. And bourbon gives us an ingredient. Now not all of them maybe have the best application in lactating cow diets.

Mike Donaldson (29:30)
you

⁓ sure.

Joe Sparrow (29:53)
But wet cake, distiller syrup are probably the ingredients that I use the most of, ⁓ you know, on a liquid or a wet side. We do have some ethanol distillers that would be wet as well. And again, in the form of wet cake. And when I get to the South over in the Carolinas, I feed a lot of brewer's grains. And brewer's grains ⁓ is an ingredient that used to intimidate me just because of my history with

some of the whiskey byproducts, which ⁓ the whiskey byproducts giveth and they taketh away. You they cannot necessarily always be the most consistent ⁓ and not always the most digestible fiber there. But what the beauty of some of these wet products do, I was always told you can't take chicken salad and turn it into chicken with a bad word attached to the end. But these wet byproducts are beautiful if forages weren't

Mike Donaldson (30:46)
Yep, yep, yep.

Joe Sparrow (30:53)
made perfect on moisture. ⁓ They really make a diet more palatable, more appetizing, ⁓ and can help us in some heifer diets really cut cost. But I got off track there from the Carolinas. The brewers grains that I get to feed down there is a 80% moisture product, but there's a lot of brewing, a lot of distilling, close to the Asheville area in North Carolina. ⁓

Mike Donaldson (30:56)
Okay.

Joe Sparrow (31:21)
throughout that state and even down in Georgia, there's a big brewery that feeds brewers in. And we're feeding as much as six, seven pounds of dry matter of these ingredients at some herds that are really doing well. And I guess where I've shifted my mindset is that's not a wet by-product anymore. I almost start looking at it ⁓ because of its digestible fiber component. Some of these ⁓ wet brewers grains are feeding like a...

I like a highly digestible fiber source. And it's a highly digestible fiber source that also makes a ration wet and palatable. ⁓ And to circle back to our original point of the conversation where I said, I struggle at times to get cows to eat. Well, when you put an ingredient like that in a diet and you can make it wet and the water source or the source that's adding the moisture to it is a palatable source, it really... ⁓

Mike Donaldson (31:53)
Huh?

Joe Sparrow (32:20)
It kind of attacks the diet not only on paper, but in presentation as well.

Mike Donaldson (32:27)
You mentioned something that I've almost forgotten to even think about. And living in the Midwest, it's been a really long time that all of a sudden they thought turning corn into ethanol was a brilliant thing, whatever. But in your world, distillers grains are not automatically coming from ethanol plants.

but you work in such a big area that you see some of that. So I was always led to believe that something that was going into a maker's mark bottle was a little better handled than something that was going into a gas tank. So do you see quality differences between the source of that ingredient?

Joe Sparrow (33:18)
Probably more on the dry side than the wet side, you know, because you can be specific on the wet side. You know, the folks that are feeding this, they know this is coming from makers. They know this is coming from Heaven Hill, you know. So it's, you can be a little bit more specific on the source as opposed to, I got to load ethanol DDGs. Well, all ethanol DDGs ain't created equal. You know, so we can be specific on the source because it's coming straight from

Mike Donaldson (33:42)
Huh. Mm-hmm.

Joe Sparrow (33:48)
that plant, and this farmer is getting four loads a week from this plant, you know ⁓ you've got a pretty good template for what that ingredient's gonna feed like.

Mike Donaldson (34:01)
more predictability and consistency.

Joe Sparrow (34:03)
100%,

100%.

Mike Donaldson (34:06)
Well, I warned you I was going to ask you this, so now I'm going to. When we've had one of our field nutritionists on, one of the things that we've started asking them is, and not your dream ration if I made you move to Michigan, but your dream ration where you are. I'm looking at you and I'm saying, okay, starting with the winter grain that I'm going to put in tomorrow.

Joe Sparrow (34:12)
Okay?

Okay.

Mike Donaldson (34:34)
all the way through the corn I'm going to plant next year, you tell me what you want me to give you for forages in my cow ration and I will do everything I can to do that. So what you gonna tell me?

Joe Sparrow (34:47)
Okay, so I want a low 30s starch corn salad with a TTNDFD of 48. And I want to be able to feed 40% of my diet on a dry matter basis as that corn salad. Bring it in some starch, bring it in some digestible fiber to really make a nice building block for what we're going to feed the girls. And then as a compliment, I would like a

a small grain silage that's gonna be 15, 18% protein, 61 TTNDFD, an NDF of let's say 48. And this is gonna be a haylage that we can feed, let's say 6% of our diet on a dry matter basis. It's gonna bring us some sugars in, it's gonna bring us maybe a little bit longer stem fiber source.

I'd like to put ⁓ a pound of dry matter in as straw, some sort of processed straw that's cut less than the width of a cow's mouth to give us a nice, healthy, chewing, full coverage insurance source for the girls. And in my eyes, I'm getting more and more in love with two starch sources ⁓ from a grain side. And so some of these diets, if we're feeding a

a corn salad that's shortly fermented, I lean heavy. So we do get a lot of hominy. I'll get to feed a lot of barley grain in my part of the world. And in my experience, those two ingredients are a quicker, a faster starch. And so I like to be able to compliment, ⁓ ground corn is gonna be usually the main chunk of the starch source in the diet. But if I could get a two thirds, one third rate,

depending on the corn silage and maybe how long it's been fermented, how well it's processed. I would like some sort of marriage between what I call a quick starch and a slower starch with my slower starch being ground shelled corn. And whether that's hominy, barley, or even some high moisture shelled corn, you know, we're getting more and more of that as corn prices continue to erode. So those are probably going to be

let's say 15% of the diet on a dry matter basis. ⁓ I like at least one other energy source. ⁓ In a perfect world, since you asked for perfect, I'm gonna ask ⁓ for two and a half pounds of dry matter citrus, two and a half pounds of dry matter cottonseed. I think both of those two are healthy, cud chewing, ⁓ non-sortable, effective fibers that cows like to eat. ⁓

Then when I guess we're left with everything ⁓ covered except for our protein needs. So soybean meal drives a bus in my part of the world, play around with a little bit of canola meal, but from a transportation basis, ⁓ we really can't veer away year in, year out from soybean meal. There's enough soy processors in the South, soy processors in Indiana, soy processors in Kentucky. So soybean meal is king in our part of the world of protein sources. ⁓

And obviously that's our RDP, high lysine, a really nice protein source. And I'm complimenting it in most of my rations with a ⁓ soy expellers, a soy plus, a soy best, some sort of amino plus, some sort of product like that. So if we take a piece of the pie of our protein sources, I'm going to say...

Mike Donaldson (38:23)
Okay.

Joe Sparrow (38:34)
70% of it is a soybean meal, 25% of it is a soy plus with 5% either being some sort of blood or a protected methionine. know, most of my territory is a fluid market, so we do not get paid in most areas for milk protein. So that probably leads to a little less methionine and maybe even histidine focus from a blood standpoint.

But I do like those ingredients ⁓ Because I think they're we're feeding a ruminant. We're feeding an animal that has a microbial protein requirement So let's feed them protein sources that they use even if we're not getting paid for the full benefit I still think that those products have a place in our diet. So I guess that that's my my perfect diet obviously ⁓

I'm a big fan of rumen bypass fats. That's an ingredient that we can put in to make a diet more energy dense. And I kind of play around with different sources. know, butterfat has been a very valuable source here of late. So lean heavily on a palm. But yet the cost spread between it and a soap and just the pure energy that a soap can bring in, I do feed that. And I'll play around with some omega-3 fatty acids as well. So I like.

kind of being able to shift gears on farms as to which farm desires ⁓ which result and use those fatty acid sources as such.

Mike Donaldson (40:12)
That's perfect. That's beautiful. Well, the other thing that started to come out is we've got more people on the podcast is, ⁓ it's kind of, kind of a nice thing. We've got people from across the country that are listening and, I think people find it interesting moving slightly away from nutrition for a moment. What are the, what are the challenges you see as unique to the dairyman you work with people in the Carolinas?

Joe Sparrow (40:26)
Okay?

Mike Donaldson (40:43)
up through Kentucky, Tennessee, southern part of Indiana. ⁓ If I've, mean, I hopefully I've lived a good enough life. I've, I left Michigan once or twice, but if I've only farmed in Michigan, what are the things that might surprise me about what a farmer in South Carolina is having to deal with?

Joe Sparrow (41:01)
Well, I'll start first and foremost with the H word is what I call it, humidity. Humidity usually sets in with us this year. We got a bolt of it in late June and it really did not let go until ⁓ about a week ago, know, early September, late August. So humidity is, ⁓ it's a killer. And I guess what it continues to do is force more and more of our focus

to keeping cows cool, keeping cows comfortable. And I think at the end of the day, it all starts with the ladies and we have to focus on them because mother nature throws stuff at us, ⁓ whether that be a drought that affects our forages, whether that be humidity that just takes the air away from them ⁓ for 23 hours a day. At the end of the day, we have to focus on cow comfort. And I think my best herds, ⁓

the herds that were affected the least by this humid spell that we've had this summer. We've got herds that haven't lost much milk, if any, herds that Repro hasn't slipped. Those are the herds that are focusing on cow comfort. So I think maybe I got off track there. ⁓ Humidity is king. And I think that's also focusing us to look at it from a genetic standpoint.

Mike Donaldson (42:16)
No, that's good, that's good.

Joe Sparrow (42:25)
And I think that there's some slick genes that are coming out. I've got some producers that are really getting entrenched in that. And I think there's ⁓ different things that we can do to combat what Mother Nature gives us. So we may not be judged by our solids production or our pounds of total components. We really have to look at ⁓ energy corrected milk over pounds of dry matter intake.

because it's rare for me to have a herd where lactating cows are going to eat 63, 64 pounds of dry matter 365 days a year. You know, we lose, I'm going to say 10% or more for probably three months out of the year on dry matter intakes. And it's got folks looking and maybe not even, you know, specific genetic traits, but crossbreeding. You know, some of the crossbreed herds are maybe a little bit more resilient.

the deeper in the south you go. it's keeping us on our toes and ⁓ my dairymen are the best. They continue to find ways to survive and adapt. And it's a lot of fun to get to be a part of their journey.

Chris Radke (43:32)
Bye.

or in a good way.

Mike Donaldson (43:40)
It really is. You mentioned that you've been with Agri-King three months, three, probably a little over three hours now. But what makes Agri-King's approach to nutrition something you're excited to be a part of?

Joe Sparrow (43:48)
Yeah

Well, I think it's pretty cool that we start with Forage. I like that. I like that Forage has been King, and that's kind of was my first experience, my first exposure to Agri-King on the silage inoculant side. And I think that in this short amount of time that I've been here, I guess it's been exciting to me to start diving into some of the tools that are available ⁓ to offset.

to help, to assist some of these forages, ⁓ as opposed to just throwing my hands up in the air and saying, I can't feed this forage because it's a starch ain't available. It didn't ferment well. Whatever the thing that we've got, let's learn from it and try to do better next year. But let's also try to figure out how to adjust, adapt and find something to turn this chicken stuff into chicken salad.

Mike Donaldson (44:57)
There you are. Well, and then I'm expecting that on that rare occasion that you get to feed your perfect ration, I'll get a postcard saying, it's happened, I'm doing it. And I doubt I'm gonna get a whole lot of postcards because it doesn't work that way.

Joe Sparrow (45:13)
No, no, no, no, but maybe perfection, all we can do is chase it.

Mike Donaldson (45:19)
Yeah, no, makes it. And that's one of the things that makes it all worthwhile too. So this has been wonderful. I really appreciate your time, ⁓ You bring an interesting perspective and it's easy to see why people are excited to work with you. Your passion for this is overwhelming, is really good. Chris, what'd you learn?

Joe Sparrow (45:23)
Yes.

Thank you.

Chris Radke (45:41)
Hey, ⁓ like Mike said, Joe, you have a lot of passion. love it. And I'm glad you ⁓ said this, because I trying to think of way of wrapping it. But that idea of pancake making, I love that idea. I can imagine Joe, just kind of like, I guess my mom. Like, she's in the kitchen. But yet your kitchen keeps moving across the country, because you have such a wide area. And just the different ⁓ products you have to work with are ideas. have to work with different farmers in different, ⁓ I guess, just different areas. It's just amazing. And just your passion.

just goes into your pancake making. way to go, Joe. I think that's incredible. It's good stuff. Yeah, it's good stuff. All right, if you'd like us, you can find us on just about any the social medias. You can listen to us on any podcast platform. You can find us on our website now at agriking.com. And after you listen to us, please leave us a review. It does help us out. If you have any follow-up questions, you can email us at podcasts@agriking.com.

Joe Sparrow (46:14)
And I pancakes.

Chris Radke (46:39)
And we are still searching for names for our mascot that Mike has, that beautiful cow with those yellow boots. If you have any ideas, please submit them and we'll figure that out. All right, Joe, Mike, go ahead, Mike.

Mike Donaldson (46:50)
And

I was going to say, and in full disclosure, ⁓ I should have at least got a brown cow for Joe's appearance. That's actually what my daughter showed. I think Brown Swiss are seriously shortchanged on everything from their production capabilities to their ability to withstand heat. For something that came from Switzerland, nobody understands.

Joe Sparrow (47:00)
YES!

Mike Donaldson (47:16)
How much better is Swiss will handle heat than Holstein's, but that's a whole nother podcast. So.

Chris Radke (47:22)
Cool, cool. Yeah, maybe we'll get two mascots. Who knows? Alright, Joe, Mike, thank you very much. Have a good day.

Mike Donaldson (47:29)
Thank you guys.

Joe Sparrow (47:29)
You're welcome. Thank

you guys.