The Boys Will Be Okay: Navigating Motherhood, Careers, and Higher Education with Dr. Kelly Weaber

In this heartfelt and inspiring episode of No Shrinking Violets, host Mary sits down with her accomplished and multi-talented friend, Dr. Kelly Weaber, to discuss the complexities of balancing motherhood, career aspirations, and personal growth. Drawing from Kelly's dissertation, The Boys Will Be Okay: Exploring the Mother-Learner-Worker Experiences, the conversation dives into the challenges women face when society expects them to excel in every role.

Kelly shares her journey as a first-generation college student, a dedicated professional in higher education, and a mother navigating co-parenting, all while pursuing her Doctorate of Education. Together, Mary and Kelly reflect on gender roles, societal expectations, and the power of persistence in the face of obstacles.

Whether you're a parent, a professional, or simply someone striving to balance multiple roles, this episode offers relatable insights, empowering anecdotes, and a reminder that we’re all figuring it out, one step at a time. Tune in for an honest and uplifting conversation you won’t want to miss!

Read more about Nancy Chodorow, PhD, quoted by Kelly in this episode, HERE.

Transcript

00:00:01 Mary

Hi and welcome to the show today. I have the fun privilege of talking to my smart, caring and sweet friend with enviable hair – my friend, Dr Kelly Weaber.

Today, we're going to talk about Kelly's journey and how she navigated a successful career and earned her Doctorate of Education while being a mom, a wife and a co- parent with her ex to her two boys.

In fact, this is actually the topic of Kelly's dissertation. It's called The Boys will be Okay: Exploring the Mother-Learner-Worker Experiences. 

So too often, I think as women we have been put in a position of feeling, as if we need to decide what one thing we want to do well to, pick one role in life.

00:00:47 Mary

Do you want to be a mom or do you want to build a successful career?

Do you want to be present and connected to your partner, or do you want to focus on earning a degree?

00:00:56 Mary

Or just as agonizing, we've all been told that we don't need to pick, and we can and should do all the things. Although women tend to be better multitaskers, there is increasing evidence that our brains don't actually function best when we attempt to do too many things.

We end up sacrificing focus, self-care and even our highest potential when we try to serve too many masters.

00:01:23 Mary

And further, this conundrum, Can I be a great parent and a successful worker? tends to be centered much more on the shoulders and in the emotional space of women.

00:01:35 Mary

OK, I am not a parent. I was uber-focused on my career for 35 years and I still am. But I was keenly aware of the luxury I had of only getting myself fed, bathed and dressed before work, only packing my own lunch, not worrying if I needed to stay late at work and finish a project. Never giving a thought to who else would be impacted when I enrolled in a doctoral program.

00:02:00 Mary

And because, having been lucky to have gender enlightened and supportive partners, I didn't have the pressure to frantically keep the flames of multiple roles alight. Because of all the multiple roles women fill, being a mom can encapsulate the most varied continuum of emotions when we believe we aren't doing it “right.”

Or when we try to accommodate our own goals and drives to maximize ourselves, separate from our role as a mom.

00:02:27 Mary

So I invited Kelly to talk to me today because she has truly stood in the space of all the roles all at once.

Plus, we share an avid interest in gender roles, especially in the workplace.

I grew to know and love her when we worked together at a college. She is one of those coworkers who, after partnering on just one shared project, leaves no doubt that she is capable, professional and reliable. For me that’s the trifecta. Her real, down-to-earth, approachable and consistent care as a friend, was a delightful bonus.

00:03:02 Mary

Kelly has degrees in community health and student affairs, and holds a Doctorate in Educational Leadership and Administration.

She is a wife, a 2-time boy mom who successfully Co-parents with their father, (her ex-husband), a dog mom, a caring and capable advocate for young people and, yet again, a student.

00:03:21 Mary

As the youngest kid in her family, born after three other girls, she learned early how to stand her ground as well as realizing the unique love and bonds shared by females.

On the flip side, she is a nearly failed skier who ultimately became a skier par excellence, (which, if you know her, is not surprising,) baker and sourdough adventurer, and enviable sleeper, a reader, and a rare true friend made later in life.

Oh, and she has an enviable pin collection, and she hugs like she means it.

00:03:54 Mary

I am happy to share the mic today with my friend Dr Kelly Weaber.

Welcome to No Shrinking Violets, friend.

00:04:01 Kelly

Hi. Thank you so much for having me! Your intro of me makes me blush so thank you. And I'm happy to be here and have this important conversation.

00:04:12 Mary

So I'm just gonna dive in, and I'm gonna start with a big one. And this is kind of multifactored. Let's see where it takes us.

So can you share with us what has been your career trajectory and what contributed to your decision to pursue an advanced degree? And as part of that, I'm so interested in your internal dialogue leading up to the decision to do this.

00:04:36 Kelly

I think to be able to even answer that question, I really have to go back to my childhood where there were a lot of things and experiences with how I was raised that never quite sat right with me, but I didn't have the word, I didn't have the experiences, I didn't have the exposure to what an alternate, different life could possibly be.

00:05:04 Kelly

So being the youngest, I had the least amount of responsibilities in the house, which was actually kind of nice, although I don't know that I really realized all the benefits of that at the time. But what it truly allowed me to do was to explore different things, again, not really knowing what I was searching for. 

I was the first to become involved with athletics throughout my school, and I think having and forging those relationships started opening up some doors for me.

Naturally, I became a captain – no shocker to those who know me – of the sports teams, And just being able to lead others and role model was something that was just natural for me as a role to fall into.

00:05:48 Kelly

Again, I didn't really know where this was taking me, but it was all these little kind of building blocks and little Legos. One step just led to the next. And then it was in high school that I had a teacher who started to really ask the questions of what are you doing after high school? And I didn't have the answers.

I mean, the rest of my family? You stayed, you got married. You got a house. You maybe got a job until the first baby was born, and that was life. But it wasn't the life I wanted.

00:06:24 Kelly

But I also knew that that was disappointing. Or I felt it. Well, let me rephrase that.

I felt as if that would be disappointing to my family, almost an insult that I didn't want what they had.

And now, at the age that I am, I can look back and put words to it. During that time, I was really struggling. But I had friends that were talking about college and I was like sure, that sounded like a good idea.

Because again I didn’t really have any clear direction, clear focus.

00:06:56 Kelly

So I ended up settling on a college. Very inexperienced. I’m a first generation college student.

My parents had no idea what this meant, what was involved, how to navigate the world of higher education.

But they were supportive. I'm not going to say “supportive” in the sense that they were, from the get-go, kind of pushing me. But they never said no to me. They never said, that's not going to be the route for you.

They did what they could to financially support me, but I also had to take out loans, because this was my decision. So it really was in college that I started to figure out that

00:07:37 Kelly

Oh, like not every woman has a high school education, finds a life partner, starts up a house, has children.

There're different ways in which you can, in fact, navigate and live the world. And so in my sophomore year, I saw the opportunity to get involved with a resident advisor role within the residential program. And not only did it provide me with free housing, which helped with my tuition, but also provided me with a paycheck. And that was the point that I was introduced into higher ed worlds, realizing that that could be a full time job. And I loved everything about it. I loved the environment. I loved being able to continue working with college students. I loved the development that was happening, the challenges going on within higher education. And I really, as they say, drink the Kool-Aid.

00:08:38 Kelly

I loved everything about it. And once I found my purpose and my “why,” I was able to go on for my graduate degree in higher education within student affairs. I landed my first job, remained there for a good 23 years, 23 1/2 years, and then realized it was time to move on.

I was able to start navigating and looking for jobs, which is – not gonna lie – probably a whole podcast in itself in the journey and the humble feelings of being able to navigate, at a seasoned age, trying to change your career! And trying to find and land the next role.

00:09:21 Kelly

So that was an experience for sure. And you know, I was fortunate with the role that I found myself in, which landed me into my next role.

I haven't really looked back at that point since because everything has been right where I think it's supposed to be.

That's probably one of the most frustrating pieces is that you want to – at least I do – control my life.

00:09:48 Kelly

I want to be able to have things fall into place when I want them to fall into place, and when they don't, I get really frustrated, which is probably one of my biggest barriers. Because my frustration then is a distraction from being able to move forward with what it is that I want to do. But you know, working through that frustration and then getting to the point of, Oh, this is how this really was supposed to play out in the end.

But I didn't see that five years ago, so it was definitely a different perspective that allowed me to get there.

00:10:19 Kelly

So it's a really long winded answer and I'm sorry for that.

But one thing that I will say is, working within higher education, I always had this sense that I wanted to go for my doctoral degree. But I knew that it was never for professional purposes, which was probably one of the biggest reasons why I was like, maybe not right now.

I felt very guilty by being able to pursue it because most degrees are helping you achieve the role that you're seeking. That was not my purpose of a doctorate degree.

00:10:52 Kelly

I was never the A+ student from high school. During undergrad and graduate school things turned a little bit differently, but I had a very healthy balance between a social life and an academic life. I thought that doctoral students and those that hold a doctoral degree were extremely intelligent –  like really high IQs. And somebody like me? That’s not really me And it wasn't until I had a really good friend, whose wife was my mentor, say to me many, many years ago that you don't have to be smart to have your doctoral degree. You just need to be persistent.

And I remember thinking, oh, well, you know what? I’m a pretty stubborn, pretty persistent person. Maybe I shouldn't give up on this dream.

And so it stuck with me. You know, it was something I had simmering for probably a good 15 - 20 years before I felt as if it was the right time to make the move.

00:11:50 Mary

Wow, thank you for sharing all of that.

One of the coolest things, I think, about doing this work with the podcast is that even people that I've known for quite awhile – when we really sit down and talk about something where we have a kind of a framework for it, I learn so much! So I've learned so much already about things I didn't know about you. But you really said some things that resonated from my experience working in high schools.

00:12:19 Mary

I was a high school counselor for close to 20 years, and often young girls don't see other paths. And they are actually not told there are other paths.

And my parents sound like they were very similar to your parents in that they were supportive, but they hadn't gone to college. And they were much older. If they were living now, they would be 97.

It was a very different world.

00:12:50 Mary

So there was a lot I didn't know. And when I look back now, I'm like, wow, if I had known certain things, I would have maybe gone in this direction or that direction.

You also said something really important in that when you look back, you realize that the directions you kind of get bumped in – and I think sometimes like a pinball machine, you shoot into the world and then things happen and you respond. And I am exactly where I'm supposed to be right now, like those things happened. And I responded in certain ways and made certain turns.

00:13:23 Mary

And working in Higher Ed, you're surrounded by people that have their doctoral degree. And it can be very intimidating because there's sort of two “sides” to the academic world.

One is Academic Affairs and one is Student Affairs. And student affairs is like the support system for the students. You know, we help them be successful.

On the academic side, certainly they do the same thing in the context of learning and achieving the course credits. So the academic side, there are a lot of terminal degrees. Many people have their doctoral degrees, and it can feel intimidating. It's also a different hiring process.

You know, it's a very different world from Student Affairs. But you are exactly right that a doctoral degree really is about having organization and having, you know, stick to-it-iveness, and really just hanging in there and figuring out how to get there. 

You do have those things in spades, so it's pretty cool.

00:14:35 Mary

So I'm thinking about when you were in a position where you decided, first of all, you're going to move on from the position you were in and seek other employment.

But also the idea of jumping into this learning process, which is pretty intense to earn a degree at that level. Because there are so many hoops to jump through, and then to finish the dissertation… and a lot of people are ABD: All But Dissertation. They get all that coursework finished, and then they just sort of fizzle out. So to have achieved that is really spectacular.

00:15:12 Mary

So as you're deciding that you want to jump into this really meaty learning experience, where were you personally? How old were your boys? What did you have to consider as a woman? Because we're going to start to get more into how gender shapes a lot of our decisions, especially when we have a family, and we have career goals.

Where was your head in all that, how old  were your boys, and what was happening at that time?

00:15:41 Kelly

Yeah. So my oldest – I did some math to be able to figure this out so let's hope that I got it right – but my oldest would have been starting 9th grade.

Actually, let me backup to the application process.

I started that the year before the classes, just because of the timeline of that application, the interviews, and being able to be accepted into the program.

I guess if we're looking at from that end, my oldest would have been in 8th grade when I started the process. And then my youngest was in 7th grade. w

When classes started, my oldest was in 9th grade, and then my youngest was in 8th grade.

Where I was at was, really, out of excuses!

00:16:21 Kelly

I had constantly thought about doing this and I had the same reasons as to why not to do it. And the excuses seemed to work, especially when the boys were young.

At the time, I was operating as a single mother. I had a wonderful partner. We had been together for many years, but we did not live together and we lived, geographically, over two hours away from one another.

So our relationship was very much kind of weekends. We would vacation together so you know, like a week or two throughout the year. But that's how we really maintained that relationship. And thank goodness that we were able to do this in the world of modern technology. Things would have been very different 30, 40, 50 years ago. We were able to still very much stay connected, which was helpful for myself and my partner.

00:17:16 Kelly

The boys were then also at an age where because they were in their own sports and, as a single mother, I had them help out around the house. We lived in an apartment. It was a close quarters.

When I was cooking, they were pretty much always around, so they were able to see how a meal was able to get on to the table. When I was doing the laundry, they were able to see that and so because of being able to model that, I don’t ever remember having a very direct lesson with them on “this is how you do laundry” or “this is how you make eggs” or “this is how you make this casserole.”

00:17:51 Kelly

But I think just through observations, they started picking up some things.

You know, they were more responsible. So they had a key to the apartment. They were able to come home by themselves after school, to let themselves in.

We didn't have any errors, you know, that would have been life-threatening, that made me think maybe this isn't the time, right?

And so all of that helped me be able to say, OK, I need to start taking this venture more seriously. The question always comes into play –  the financial component – because it's not a cheap endeavor in any way, shape, or form. It definitely is not a cheap endeavor when you're not looking to advance your career, which was me. I was doing it as a personal goal. I didn't know anybody in my family that had a terminal degree.

I kind of saw that as my mission. I wanted to be the first. I was always the last at everything because I was the youngest, right? I wanted to be the first at something.

And so that challenge also really, really helped catapult me to being able to want to do this as well.

00:18:52 Kelly

But I also ran into an obstacle with that because our union contract was renegotiated, and the degree then was factored into the benefits that we received as employees.

So every semester it cost me $10. How could you argue that?

00:19:09 Mary

Wow, right.

All those excuses were falling away.

00:19:13 Kelly

I was then once again my own biggest barrier.

And so I was just like, what does it hurt to just apply? It's like it's the same self-talk we have when we're looking at new careers too. What does it hurt to apply? It doesn't mean I'm accepting the job.b This just means I'm applying and seeing where this goes.

So it was the same thing, and I remember I received the acceptance letter the day before my birthday, and I was like, wow, like, this really might be the year things are going to start happening! And I had a conversation with the boys because I knew what that was going to mean.

Our fun time, like our time to be able to go to the movies and our time to be able to travel more was really going to have to be cut down. Because if I was starting this program, I was finishing. ABD was not going to be an option for me.

00:20:01 Kelly

So I was committed. I knew I was going to be full speed ahead.

I knew that I was going to get the classes done and I was going to move right into the writing process and then defend my dissertation. And I stuck to it.

I gave up a lot in terms of a social component of my life, because I wanted to make sure that I was able to finish that goal. So. But you know, I guess that very much paralleled other components of my life as being a single mom.

I wasn't a part the PTA. I didn't have time for it.

I showed up to the boys events. I volunteered as much as my schedule would allow. I was at every one of their sporting events, whether they were home or whether they were away, but I wasn't a part of the “in crowd.” There were definitely plenty of mothers that were grouped and corralled together.

I sat by myself. And then when I was in the doctoral program, I sat by myself with articles in my lap or a textbook in my lap. I was reading in between events right?

00:21:06 Kelly

But that was just a continuation of how my mothering journey looked.

00:21:15 Mary

Yeah. Wow.

So one of the things I will share –  and I'm not even sure if you know this, Kelly – but I was in two doctoral programs, and I didn't finish either one.

And you know, it's funny, because the first one was a PsyD, which is a Doctorate of Psychology. I loved it; I really did love it. But it was very, very intense.

I think it was 36 credits in something like 18 months, and I was working full time.

I didn't need it for the career that I was in at the time – kind of like you, you were saying you did it as a personal goal. I really did it to learn, and I think I felt like, you know what? I just want to live my life.

00:21:53 Mary

Then I had another opportunity. I was in a PhD program and it was kind of the same thing. I enjoyed it, but I felt like I wanted to do all the other things.

And I don't really dwell on regrets. I don't feel like I regret it, but it gives me a lot of appreciation, and I'm really impressed by somebody who follows through. Because again, I didn't have any things I needed to really consider, like other people, like kids, you know?

And so the fact that you stuck to it…And I think one of the things you've identified that we are not really naming but is something that's been out there for several years now is the idea of imposter syndrome.

00:22:37 Mary

You know, do I belong here? Should I be doing this? Am I really suited to do this?

And also the idea of mindset – that you kind of had to work your way to it, and it is sort of like the stars aligned. Like when you got that information that OK, you don't really have to invest as much financially as you thought you did, it was one more thing…Like, now what are you going to do?

Which I think is interesting because, so often –  and you alluded to this earlier – the biggest obstacle for us as women especially, is the idea of mindset.

Do I belong here?

00:23:18 Mary

So I was going to ask you, did you ever consider bailing and not finishing your degree?

But I think I know that answer.

00:23:24 Kelly

Oh no, but the answer is, in fact, yes. And I'll tell you why. To go back to your point on mindset, I also think where my belief and where women really struggle is whose expectations are they trying to meet?

Because I lived most of my life trying to meet other people's expectations or my understanding of what other people – and when I say people, I mean other women's expectations of me – there is constant judgement, I think in the world. Period.

00:23:57 Kelly

But I think us as women are brutal towards one another.

Take the example of whether you breastfed or bottle fed your babies.

Either way, we are providing nutrients to our most loved, most cherished, little human beings that we have been a part of creating. And yet there is this divisive conversation about the best way to go about doing it.

Who cares which way we are feeding our children? The point should be that our children are receiving the nutrients, and we need to be supporting one another far more than we are trying to break one another down. But I think that this is also a part of our survival skills.

00:24:42 Kelly

Because I think, just generationally, we, as women have been clawing our way to have a seat at the table, to be a part of the conversation, and it doesn't matter whether it's a male or whether it's another woman. We will take either one of them down in order to get to where it is that we need to be. 

And again I think that is not the type of woman that I am trying to be, and I want to role model being with others because I don't find that to be helpful. And frankly I find it really confusing. As a young woman, I found that very confusing because it was a lot of mixed messages coming at me in a very short period of time.

00:25:24 Kelly

To go back to your question about, did I ever feel like bailing: I, through most of my life, typically never followed the traditional pathway in which other people would would have expected one to follow and at the very start of our program, the program director said, once you start this program, do not change jobs. Because if you change jobs, it's going to derail you. It's going to distract you from progressing within the program.

And so I was sitting there thinking, you know, I was happy as a clam, everything was going well in my world and in my career and where I was working.

I just really kind of shrugged it off. I didn't think it was going to be applicable. 

00:26:12 Kelly

But in a very short period of time, things changed quite drastically and I knew I knew I needed to change jobs.

And it was something I really wasn't prepared for. It was a journey that took me longer than I was expecting. And don't get me wrong: throughout my career, I've kind of dabbled with, Let's go see what other opportunities would be out there. 

But the truth was, I was really happy with where I was and being able to be that working mother in such a supportive environment. I knew, and was very concerned, that I was not going to get that anywhere else. So I stayed where I was at, which was a choice that I had made.

00:26:47 Kelly

So fast-forward a year and a half into the program: I had secured a different job, and I transitioned, and I was mid semester because I transitioned in April. So I was mid-semester and I was like, well, the semester's already paid for. I’ll finish out the semester. And I started having some conversations with – at that point, was still just my partner, we’re now married. 

00:27:10 Kelly

But at this point, he was still my partner. And I was just like, you know, financially it was right back to the same conversation. Financially, this doesn't make sense for me to continue.

I was not moving forward in my career. This wasn't going to help us as a family. I had already taken a significant pay cut in order to take this new employment opportunity.

I was not going to be the reason we didn't have bread on the table and milk in the refrigerator.

I was being a little dramatic. But these are concerns that I had right. And, you know my partner had said, you are halfway through this program. You’re not quitting.

And I was just like, but…. And again, I started with my record playing of the reasons why I should not continue on in this program.

00:27:55 Kelly

And he was very insistent that this is something I have wanted for many, many years. You've started it, and he threw back my words that I've used on my own children: Once you start, you’re not quitting it. You're gonna finish it. 

And so I was just, like, Dang it. And my wise words, you know, are coming back at me.

00:28:13 Kelly

And so I begrudgingly took out a student loan in order to finish the classes, and that probably motivated me even more that I was just very, very set on making sure that I was going to finish it, because now the family had a financial investment into me being able to finish it. And so that really helped motivate me to make sure that I was going to get it done as quickly as possible.

00:28:38 Mary

Wow. You brought up again two things…and I meant to address this before, when you talked about your boys and talking to them and starting this journey.

I love that they had this example of what you wanted to invest, and they seemed to take this in stride. Like this is a mom who isn't just our mom. She’s a woman; she has goals, and they were part of the home environment and making that successful with meals and laundry and those things. And I think that's pretty rare, first of all.

00:29:15 Mary

I just had this conversation with somebody – that my mom taught my sister and me how to fold sheets. And you know, do laundry and wash the dishes the “correct” way.

And my brothers didn't get that.

She didn't share the kitchen very comfortably, so the fact that those doors were sort of open for your boys, that they saw all of that, and it was done from a place of strength, it sounds like. Here’s what we do to make a home run, and here are the goals that I have. 

So you have raised boys that now have this different idea of gender roles, and you also have a partner who sounds like what I've been lucky to have – somebody who doesn't see you as this gender role of a woman.

00:30:05 Mary

You're human being with goals. And we don't have these rigid guardrails. And this is what I talked about way back in my first episode: we've had these guardrails put in our lives and we don't know that we didn't put them there! And they're permeable and we can move them. And when you have somebody that is your champion, we’ll say, and encourages that, that's really powerful. Because I think sometimes there's also that internal dialogue: s it really OK with him? Because our relationship will be impacted by this. 

And I don't know that we often articulate that, but when your partner actually comes out and says, you need to keep doing this – this is your goal – I think that's very freeing.

00:30:54 Kelly

Yeah, 100%.

And I really appreciate you mentioning about the role modeling that is happening – that I had done with the boys as they were growing up.

I believe it was Chodorow who had once suggested that we learn how to mother by mothering. And it's so true.

It's like when the baby comes out, if it's a boy, it is passed off to the dad, and if it's a girl, it is passed off to the mother. And these are our first role models and that is how we get our sense of being.

00:31:24 Kelly

And one of those things that I have thought about over the years, being the youngest is the gift that I was given – in that there wasn't enough room in the kitchen for me, too – so I was kind of out bopping around, doing my thing, entertaining myself however, I was able to entertain. 

Mary, I did not learn how to cook until I was in grad school.

I made a mean bowl of cereal. A really mean bowl of cereal. But that's as far as my ability to be able to cook.

00:31:57 Kelly

And it was in grad school that I had the opportunity to work at this wonderful little restaurant. It was like a little mom and pop, cafe-type of place where you did everything. And that's how I learned how to cook, by working with my boss, who was the owner of this little cafe. Because she was the one who baked all the baked goods and would make all the meals, just off of a home range.

It wasn't even a restaurant-grade range. And so that's where I learned how to make a meal. And then, you know, be able to just expand on that throughout.

00:32:33 Kelly

So I do think that the role modeling piece is huge, and I don't know that we realize how much role modeling is really going on. In my research, when I had the opportunity to interview other mother-learner-workers, one of the things that I thought was so interesting in the themes was that they all obviously had children, and the children were at varying ages. And one of the things that they thought was very interesting – and in my experience, as well – when I sat down to do my schoolwork, the boys or the children were also doing their schoolwork. It became a part of a family activity. So it was interesting, in interviews with my own children, (I thought about doing follow up interviews with their children as well, but I didn't want to get into the whole IRB with minors, so I was like, let's just save that one for another day), but with my own children, it was interesting in that they saw it as my habit.

00:33:31 Kelly

So it became their habit. And my children were good in school to begin with. You know, I never had any reason to be concerned about their academic achievements, but it really was interesting hearing them put it to words, in that, you know, being able to establish those routines and rituals really did plant the seed of being a lifelong learner. 

This isn't something you do K through 12. This isn't something just to get your undergrad degree. This is something that you can really continue throughout your life. When you have a curiosity or an interest, you just want to kind of expand on your own growth.

00:34:06 Mary

Yeah, what a beautiful lesson. Just by living it. And you know, I do want to sort of put an asterisk here that there are women that choose to discontinue education after high school. And that's valid too.

I think it goes back to what you were saying: just support each other.

You know this, this idea of competition – and again, this has been a theme pretty much in every episode –  this idea of being set up as competitors.

00:34:34 Mary

You and I have had some conversations in our work environment, kind of like, what!?

There would be behaviors happening and I would sort of check it with you. I'd be like, hey, can I come over? Are you free now?

And we'd sit down, and we'd be sort of working through it because it doesn't occur to me to try to break somebody else down so that I can use them as a step to get somewhere.

And also, often in the student affairs side of higher education, there isn't a set of stairs. It's more of a rambling path. It's not really that you have these steps of a ladder, so you've just brought up so many wonderful concepts.

00:35:18 Mary

I would love to do is sort of park our conversation, and make another time to explore these themes.

Because I would love to hear more about how the journey changed you, and how your idea of gender roles became ignited, and what you think of those things now. And just even the challenge – you sort of have addressed this – but the challenge of being a working mom. Your boys are in college now, but how do those gender expectations still have an impact? Because they do.

It doesn't matter how “enlightened” you become as a woman, those have been ingrained since a very young age.

So we have really cool themes that I think we can explore more. 

So I didn't anticipate this! It's very organic and I love it, and I think there's so much more we can talk about and explore.

00:36:11 Mary

So I just kind of want to tie this up with a little bit of a bow.

You completed your doctoral degree. And I got to watch you, via zoom, defend your dissertation, and you pulled this all together and completed it in 2022, correct?

00:36:26 Kelly

That's correct.

Yes, I finished classes the year before and as I had predicted and and put out there, I was full speed ahead in terms of writing. I will say I had a wonderful committee – truly supportive.

Which could have gone either way because it was all women. And as we just previously noted, they could have been the first to try to tear me down, break it apart, throw in a little academic hazing and all that.

But that was not my experience.

It was really a very, very supportive environment. And I will say that the topic was very non-traditional in terms of the research world, which I think really piqued a lot of people's interest.

00:37:14 Kelly

It certainly was supporting my classmates, especially my female classmates, but it also kind of recharged the men, who were just like, what about the dads, you know?

They constantly, every time we talked about it, said, but we do this too.

And I'm just like, oh, it's different, sir. It is very different in your world.

That was very fun to be able to navigate that, but again, there was imposter syndrome. Because of my research topic I was like, is this good enough?

Am I really adding anything of value to the research?

00:37:43 Kelly

But I am just going to hang my hat on that this was always a personal goal of mine. and I think because the topic was of such interest to me because of the personal tie, that allowed me to really finish it. I was in it and I was in it for all the right reasons.

00:37:59 Mary

Yeah. And the topic itself: it's interesting that you would question it.

00:38:03 Mary

Is it important enough or is it current enough or relevant enough?

It's so relevant, but I think it's similar to a lot of things that women may face in that we sometimes think we can't admit that something is hard.

We just are supposed to sail through.

And again, I'm going to go back to what you said: a lot of that is for other women, you know?

Let's bring in, just for a second, social media.

You're not putting your worst picture on social media.

There're no “hag” filters, you know. So I think there's so much…

We're constantly looking at somebody else and internally saying, are they gonna think this is OK? And even if they do, they may not tell you, thank you for this. Or, you're doing a great job. Or, wow, this is really impressive.

00:38:53 Mary

So yes, building each other up is not something we've been trained to do, but I think we can change that.

It's been so awesome to talk to you today. It's been so fun and I cannot wait to schedule our next time to get together and talk more about some of our themes of mindset and gender and imposter syndrome and women's competition and all of those themes.

00:39:19 Mary

So thank you for being with us today, and thank all of you so much for listening. If you like what you heard today, please follow, review or I would love to hear your comments about today's episode. Or better yet, share this episode with a friend.

00:39:34 Mary

Thank you, Kelly. And I will talk to you soon. 

And for the rest of you, until we meet again, go out into the world and be the amazing, resilient, vibrant Violet that you are.