Embracing All Your Layers: The Path to Authentic Living

Women's socialization as caretakers often leads to physical health crises when we neglect our own needs for too long. Melissa Crook shares her powerful story of experiencing severe anxiety attacks at age 50 that sent her to the emergency room twice in one week, ultimately becoming the catalyst for her journey toward self-awareness and authentic living.

• Understanding how our essential nature combines both biology and socialization
• Recognizing when our bodies are desperately trying to get our attention
• Learning that boundaries aren't about controlling others but about our own choices
• Breaking free from the narrative that self-care is selfish
• Discovering the power of curiosity over judgment when examining our past
• Understanding that emotions aren't "bad"—they're important clues
• Moving anger through our bodies in healthy ways rather than suppressing it
• Creating daily self-care practices like movement, journaling, and intentional fueling
• Finding communities that support authentic living and growth

Visit Melissa's website to learn more about her podcast, speaking engagements, book, and upcoming online courses focused on helping women embrace all their complex layers.

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Chapters

• 0:00 Welcome and Introduction
• 2:11 Melissa's Turning Point at 50
• 10:47 Unpacking Trauma and Codependency
• 17:33 The Boundary Journey
• 26:00 Breaking Free from "Selfish" Narratives
• 38:28 Emotions as Clues, Not Enemies
• 45:17 Self-Care as a Daily Practice
• 50:39 Resources and Closing

Transcript

Mary: 0:05

Welcome to No Shrinking Violence. I'm your host, Mary Rothwell, licensed therapist and certified integrative mental health practitioner. I've created a space where we celebrate the intuition and power of women who want to break free from limiting narratives. We'll explore all realms of wellness, what it means to take up space unapologetically, and how your essential nature is key to living life on your terms. It's time to own your space, trust your nature and flourish. Let's dive in. Hi and welcome to the show.

Mary: 0:42

So often, women seem to take on the role of caretaker such a simple word to encompass so many different behaviors, thoughts and feelings. We often talk on this show about how both women and men are socialized to fill certain roles in relationships, but there are also brain differences between genders and or sexes that contribute to how we connect. This is why I so often refer to our essential nature. I mean I did a whole episode on it. Essential nature is that combination of nature and nurture that is unique to each one of us. Anyway, often being a caretaker can mean that we prioritize the needs of others before our own. When we do add our own needs to the list of priorities, we can initially feel guilty or even unsure of how to take care of ourselves. Does self-care mean monthly pedicures or wine with our girlfriends every so often? Well, yeah, but no, not totally. Self-care, almost 100% of the time, includes setting boundaries. I often work on boundaries with my clients, but even that term can lead to a sense of guilt or uncertainty of how they're supposed to do that. The word boundaries can feel so final and non-negotiable, and that seems to be the antithesis of caring for others. Right, but our care equation needs to include ourselves and teaser.

Mary: 2:06

My guest today will give a sobering example of what can happen when we put our own needs at the bottom of the list. My guest today is Melissa Crook. Today we're going to explore the concept of self-care and boundaries and, because we often term the emotions we experience as we navigate, learning these life skills as bad, we're going to throw that in too. Melissa's mission is to normalize conversations for women surrounding self-care, emotional health, boundaries and embracing all of our beautiful and complex layers. She is aware and sensitive to barriers that women face, particularly our sisters in other marginalized communities. Through her own podcast, the Feel Podcast, as well as other endeavors, she creates a safe space for everyone by hosting open conversations to support, learn and grow. It's so cool that many of the themes I explore here are reflected in the stories and experiences of her guests on her podcast. Welcome to no Shrinking Violets, melissa.

Melissa: 3:08

Thank you so much. I'm so happy to be here, Mary. We talked before about all of the ways we cross over and the importance of us doing this work and supporting and showing up women and giving them a voice and helping them feel supported in this.

Mary: 3:24

Yeah, it's so funny because as soon as we got on this call and we had not met before, that energy you have, I mean, I think we both hit kind of that same energy level. So, yes, I'm really excited to jump in and kind of explore all of this with you. So I would love if you would start by sharing the experience you had when you turned 50 that really set you on this path to use your work to empower women.

Melissa: 3:50

Yeah, I mean unfortunately and fortunately I mean because it set me on this path, but it's a story that's not unfamiliar to women. And so I was turning 50 the month of September in 2019. My husband works in higher ed administration in colleges. We've lived all over the country. We were just in the beginning of our latest move to Lubbock, texas, where he was going to be working for Texas Tech University System, and I was going to be once again looking for a job but I've become pretty adaptable at that. But our girls, our daughters women they're not girls anymore. We're all basically out of the house. Our oldest had just gotten married the previous spring. Our two others were in college, one was about to graduate, the other one was in the middle of it and so we were making this move on our own for the first time. So I thought, oh, this is going to be easy, I don't have to find schools, I don't have to find activities and you know, and just all of the adjustments that come with moving children and families and all of that. And instead, what happened was it's like my nervous system was like all right, you've got the time and space. It's time for you to pay attention to the messages we're sending to you.

Melissa: 5:10

And so we were still in a hotel. We had not moved into our house yet, it had just the deal had just closed and I came back from a morning workout walk and could not get my system to settle. Took a shower, did all the normal things that normally settle my system and instead my heart rate started racing and my blood pressure. I could just feel I was lightheaded and I thought it was having a heart attack. Go downstairs to the hotel lobby. I'm like hi, sorry to bother you, I think I might be having a heart attack. And the poor kid was probably a college student at tech, at the front desk, his eyes wide open, and but there's this whole like paperwork.

Melissa: 5:55

I had to sign to call an ambulance when my husband's office was less than five minutes away from the hotel, and so I just called him. I'm like I'm so sorry to bother you, but I think I'm having a heart attack and I need to get to the emergency room. He was like I don't even think he said goodbye, he was just out the door and there before. An ambulance could have gotten there anyway, and so I don't worry about it. My husband's coming and this poor kid's watching, like waiting for me to collapse in the, you know, right there in front of him, in front of God and everyone. And so my husband gets there, we get to the ER. Mind you, we have been in town for maybe 10 days, like you don't even know for sure where the ER is. So he asked people in his office and of course they're panicked because he's just moved here and his wife's, you know, having this medical emergency.

Melissa: 6:41

So we, I get in there and they take my I mean, my blood pressure and heart rate were just through the roof. They're like, okay, we're getting you back right now. Like there wasn't even, there was no sitting in the in the room and and they ran a bunch of tests and got me settled and over time, my blood pressure settled, my heart rate settled and after they said, you know, they checked my heart. They're like everything looks healthy. We're going to send you to this cardiologist just to make sure. But clearly something was happening here and so we want to just make sure we cover all the bases. So they did full like chest x-ray, all this stuff. I was there for probably four or five hours, wow, and and and then, once everything settled, they released me.

Melissa: 7:24

Well, not even a week later, same scenario over again. I was at the house, this time waiting for our furniture to be delivered, and here come the symptoms again. And there was an additional symptom where my bladder just dumped Like I just was just like, well, that was unfortunate. So I'm like trying to find my clothes to change. But also the same other symptoms are happening and I was finding the 10, you know, this was like maybe five, six days later. So I call my husband again. He's like we better get you back there this time to check every organ, every system. I'd been to the cardiologist already that week and he's like your heart health is great, like you'd have to have a really catastrophic event for your heart to not be healthy. Your heart is very healthy because I've always moved my whole life, like I've been a runner and all those things.

Melissa: 8:19

So an ER nurse in that second go around slipped. He's like you're not going to hear about this doctor on your insurance plan. I know someone who I think can help you, is a little more non-traditional, but I think he might be able to help you unravel this puzzle and he slipped me on a ripped off piece of envelope this guy's name and number. We were at a certain hospital that wanted you to only tell them about the doctors in their system and he didn't want to get in trouble. Then he's like I think this person might help you. So I was like so I left like both relieved that all my organs and everything looks great.

Melissa: 8:54

I was wearing like a heart monitor for a month to make sure they're like watching for any like disruptions or arrhythmias, all those things. All that came back fine, like disruptions or arrhythmias, all those things. All that came back fine. And so I go to this doctor and we started unraveling. Yes, you're in perimenopause. Yes, there's some hormonal things going on. But he's like so tell me about your background, you know, tell me about your mental health journey, tell me. And we started unraveling things and he's like I think there's a lot of unprocessed things in your body that are asking for attention.

Melissa: 9:30

Meantime, my husband, almost simultaneously that day. He's like listen, babe, I've been watching you walk around with your good friend, anxiety, our entire relationship, and we were yeah, at this point we'd been together for 27, 28 years. And he's like I think it's time to. There's no excuses, there's nobody else to take care of and I had been taking care of people since I was 10 years old.

Melissa: 9:55

I've grew up in a very emotionally chaotic home and there was a lot asked of me at a very early age, really starting at six years old and then magnified again at 10 and then beyond.

Melissa: 10:07

So literally had been learned the narrative that my value and my importance, and I received affirmations for how I showed up for other people, taking care of them well, supporting them well, not having a lot of needs of my own.

Melissa: 10:24

If I did have needs, I was told I was selfish for having those needs, and I started hearing that narrative from my own mother when I was in elementary school. So I've been carrying all of that around with me, just the narrative plus the narratives we just get as women. And I had prioritized. I had very enmeshed and codependent relationships and so got into therapy and I was fortunate to find a therapist that changed my life. It was my third round of therapy over my 50-year life and this time it was like nope, I can't just skim the surface here, it's time to dig in. And that began my journey of unpacking all the unprocessed trauma and emotions and recognizing and naming the enmeshed and codependent tendencies in my relationships and rethinking and relearning how to show up first for myself and then for others in a way that was healthy for me and not to my detriment.

Mary: 11:27

That is such a compelling story and it's so fascinating and I have said this before, definitely on this show that I think life has to get a little more aggressive as we go to bring things to our attention. And one of the things that I've learned in 35 years as a therapist, because when I was trained it was very different and I started to recognize that, first in my clients and then you know, when we hit menopause this cascade of hormonal changes happens, which I think opens the door and also we are an accumulation of our experiences. But I started to recognize that the work of therapy is not from the neck up, that we are a whole being, and so I think the compelling part of this is that your body was showing you physically that it needed attention, emotionally and mentally.

Melissa: 12:25

Yeah, she was screaming at me. I think we misterm this sometimes, as women especially, we get into those middle age years where it's kind of the perfect storm and I know so many women that have gone through this and are going through this where our body is finally like I need attention and we frame it as our body failing us. No, she's just asking for attention. She's giving us clues, she's letting us know that things need to be adjusted, need to be addressed, need to be paid attention to. There's no room to stuff anymore. These things are overflowing out of us and it's time to get serious about our own wellbeing and quit believing the lie that it's selfish.

Mary: 13:05

Exactly exactly. And you know it's funny as you were telling your story, because we talked about this a little before I hit record. In your story you said that when you had this initial kind of orchestra of all these symptoms twice you said to people when you were getting help I'm sorry, but yes, would most people who think they're having a heart attack and I don't want to insert the word male in there, but would most people be like yo, dude, I need help? And we're even in those situations sort of gently easing our way in, like raising our hand, like excuse me, but I think I might be dying.

Melissa: 13:40

Yes, yes, and I, you and I, and I think it's so important. This is something I work with women on now, especially young women going out in the world from college and try to train it out of them, because my husband and I had an exercise that we did and it's something he has been talking to me about for years. That drives him crazy. He's like quit apologizing for everything. You apologize for the ant that crossed the street and got ant as in bug, not ant as in a human. The ant crossing the street that gets run over by the car. I want you to understand. You are not responsible for the well-being of everything in the world.

Melissa: 14:17

And so I talked to my therapist about this. This was four years ago now that I'd gotten into therapy a little bit and she's like yep, okay. So one time she kind of tag teamed with my husband, without ever meeting him. But she's like you tell Brady that every time you say sorry, he's got to come up with something to catch it, and he was very good at catching it, like he didn't have to practice this. He was so excited that I was finally willing to to do this.

Melissa: 14:42

And so every time I started a sentence with I'm sorry. He's like stop, I want you to reframe that sentence. And he I would reframe the sentence to what was actually true and take the I'm sorry. And it took a good year to year and a half of him being on this with me daily, where I can honestly say I rarely have to be stopped now in that. But it took very intentional and he was very committed to this because it was so ingrained. So many times he would stop me. I didn't even know I had said it, it was just subconsciously pouring out of me. It was that ingrained and I see this with women all the time.

Mary: 15:24

Absolutely, and it is so ingrained that it is almost automatic. And I do want to acknowledge that, whatever we develop or wherever we find ourselves, at the point when we realize, okay, I need to bring somebody in here to help me through this, we have likely done what we've done to survive. So I don't want to downplay that. There are times where people had an environment where they needed to stay small to be safe 100%, and that doesn't need to be your story going forward, and I really think that's what the message is that it's okay to be scared, but if you can cognitively assess and know, okay, I'm safe in this space, that's where the work can happen, which makes me now want to segue to your podcast, the Feel Podcast Finding Empowerment, embracing Layers. So your experiences really gave rise to starting to give a voice to this and using it to help other people.

Melissa: 16:26

It. Did you talk about how the universe works? I've been in therapy for a year and a half and it was my husband's birthday. It was on March 1st 2021. I'll never forget it.

Melissa: 16:35

And he was doing his own work as well, like he saw me get in about six months later he started doing his own work, with his own therapist, to unpack his stuff and it was like no, it's time to get serious about these things and be as healthy as we should be. So he wanted to do a dream wall that day. It was a book he was reading at the time, had that as a suggestion, so part of his birthday. He always takes his birthday off as a day off. And we got back from we'd gone to a movie and had lunch and he's like will you do this dream wall with me this afternoon? I was like sure, just tell me what to do. And so we got a bunch of sticky notes and we went into one of our spared bedrooms there, went in there and just started doing the activities in the stream wall. And through this dream wall came this idea wait a minute. I've had these experiences. I know hundreds of women that have had it show up for them in different ways.

Melissa: 17:31

I'd listened to a lot of podcasts during COVID and started thinking I think I could do this and I know a couple of people who can help me with the technical side of it. And all of a sudden, at the end of the day, it was like can help me with the technical side of it and I, all of a sudden, at the end of the day, it was like I think I'm going to start a podcast and my husband's like okay. So I talked to those couple of people. One was a young woman that I had been mentoring since her sophomore year of college. She knew how to edit podcasts from her major and then my middle daughter's college roommate was a marketing background. She knew how to start websites, she knew how to start social media platforms, and they were 2020 college grads still looking for jobs and they needed experience. So I reached out to Valencia and, abby, I'm like, would you be interested in helping me with this? And we had our first meeting in May of 2021.

Melissa: 18:20

And we launched with our first episode in July and I just started with women. I knew like I've lived all over the country and just like, would you be willing to have these conversations with me and we lined out our talking points and it was the framework that myself and my daughters and my husband and my son-in-law had, who had all collectively and separately been doing our own work, found this framework that was really working for us and I'm like I think this framework can support other women in this journey and help them get on a track that is authentic to who they are, that is aligned with who they are and will help them as they go through seasons in life and not get to these points I was getting. I'm like too many of us are crashing and burning and having these serious outcomes to get our attention. Let's get this framework in the hands of these women and girls when they're young, when they're 16, 17, 18, 21, 22. And then they've got it to carry them through their whole lives. But let's dispel these narratives and these myths about topics we've been told not to talk about and start talking about them and creating safe spaces for them.

Melissa: 19:31

And the embracing layers piece for me even though that's a talking point in the podcast that comes at the end when I'm working with people in person, it's one of the first things we address, because you will prioritize what you value. The embracing layers piece is a major component. And then that when you understand that, then we can. You'll value yourself enough to prioritize that self-care and see that gosh, when I fill my own cup I am not only serving myself but everyone that I am in contact with. A relationship working for they get the healthiest, most authentic, refreshed version of me, instead of the tired, tattered, wore out, feeling like a martyr. Irritable version of me because I'm just showing up everywhere all the time for all the people, because I'm sure that's what's necessary to be valuable in the world, because that's the narrative I was sold.

Mary: 20:26

I love that idea of embracing the layers, because we do have parts of us that we're embarrassed of or we wish weren't true and you know, a lot of that is physical as our bodies change. But you know, we can. We think about these things we've done or said or ways of being, and we feel cringy, but I feel like we have so much more grace that we give to other people.

Melissa: 20:51

Yes, 100 percent, and that was the thing that really started with. And this again, kudos to my therapist. She really helped me impact this. But it starts with you know your own self-talk and you really reframe it Like, would I say that to my daughter, would I say that to my best friend, would I say that to my coworker, my sister, you know whoever? It is Okay, then I need to not be saying it to myself. If I wouldn't say it to them, then let's make sure I'm not saying it to myself.

Melissa: 21:20

So it starts with those simple, those little critical things that come up in our heads that are so again, like the I'm sorry piece. They're so subconsciously ingrained we don't even hardly notice them until someone asks us to pay attention. So I spent a week in therapy, one week journaling and documenting these things and it really brought me into my present self and helped me to stop disassociating. And then she challenged me with being curious rather than judgmental and you also heard that on Ted Lasso that year, so maybe she got it from him. But when you're able to approach, because I definitely had chapters and seasons in my life that I had a lot of shame around, and I had a lot of shame around, not only because of how I felt how other people in my life and family don't like to say made me feel, because feelings of choice, but things they said to me that I really embodied and were buried deep inside me. I don't have to love all the layers, but I need to get to an acknowledgement point, and so the curiosity, rather than judgment, allowed me to go back and meet myself in that moment, meet my 18-year-old self and be like you know what, given all that you were taught and the environment that you lived in, it's no small wonder you ended up in this relationship, that you made these choices, small wonder you ended up in this relationship, that you made these choices. It doesn't mean I loved them, but I could see them. I could approach it with empathy and curiosity and understanding, so that I was no longer had shame around them. I was no longer trying to keep parts of my life secret from other people because I was afraid of how disappointed they would be, that it would shatter the image they had of me, and stopped worrying about that.

Melissa: 23:07

When I was able to do that, it was like it lifted a whole weight off my shoulders and it then opened up my mind to being curious rather than judgmental about other people's stories. So when so-and-so reacts in a very defensive or hostile way to me, I was like no, you know, they may have had a bumpy start to their day, or I wonder if something's going on in their life and stopped seeing it as a reflection of me and started seeing that, being able to separate the two and not the and listen, I still struggle with this, I still get triggered by this, but I've got enough resources. I'm able to stop and be mindful in the moment. I'm like let's name what's true versus an old narrative that's trying to creep up and be treated as truth. I'm able to be mindful of that in the moment. So that getting curious rather than judgmental with your layers, so you can acknowledge them and understand and be empathetic to them Again, don't have to love them, don't want to repeat them, but you remove the shame and you get that layer of shame and fear and secrecy out of the way. And then, all of a sudden, you're like you know what I first and foremost owe it to myself and to those I'm in relationship with to take care of myself well. So everyone gets the healthiest, authentic version of me, starting with me.

Melissa: 24:31

And also I need to be mindful of the voices that I'm allowing into my space, that I am allowing to pour into me, and that really sent me on the boundaries journey. And I have to give my oldest daughter credit. She really brought the boundaries idea home from an internship she did in college and then her younger sisters did that internship as well. She brought that idea into our home and so we were able to start exploring the boundaries piece even before the healthy boundaries and how we communicate with each other and when you know when we're going to stop a conversation and walk out of a room because it feels like it's moving into an emotional space where we're no longer going to be able to make progress. I mean, that idea was brought into us a couple of years earlier, but it came apart of this whole bigger piece of who am I allowing to pour into me.

Melissa: 25:21

And I try to be very adamant about the fact that boundaries are not about someone else's behavior. They're about your own choices and your behavior. So you communicate those things with I statements. It's like listen, if this happens, then I'm going to try to steer the conversation in the wrong direction, or I'm going to ask that we take a timeout. Or I'm going to leave the room in the wrong direction, or I'm going to ask that we take a timeout or I'm going to leave the room. You decide what you need to do. But just know that this is a line in the sand for me and this is something that really violates the healthy spaces within me, and so I'm no longer going to be able to stay in spaces where this is happening. It can also happen in. I'm no longer going to be able to stay at work till eight o'clock at night. If you ask that of me, just know that that's something I'm going to be saying no to, because I need more time at home with my family or whatever the case may be.

Melissa: 26:15

And the hard part it's one thing to set the boundaries. It's another thing to communicate them, because there are many people in your life, especially if you've got enmeshed codependent, trauma, bond relationships they don't want to hear that. They like the way you've been showing up. It supports them, staying in that space and doesn't ask for any questioning or any thought about maybe something isn't healthy here. So there are some people that I love from afar now. So there are some people that I love from afar now in my family, and it was just that this is no longer behavior that I can put my nervous system into the line of fire up. I have some very somatic responses and reactions and I started noticing that. I started noticing there were certain faces and people that I would get about 30, 35 minutes out from the time I was going to be encountered with them and I felt my body seizing up and my stomach getting queasy and I started noticing, or even just getting a phone call from them, and what that brought up.

Melissa: 27:17

I'm like, oh, and realizing it's not selfish to set boundaries and protect my own health, and people that are truly in this for me and want me to be well aren't going to want me to do that either, and so they will support that, whatever that looks like. And there are others that just it doesn't mean they don't love you, but they just haven't done the work themselves or they're scared to. I mean, it's real easy to stay comfortable and stay in. Curiosity and comfort are in conflict with each other, because curiosity will require you to move out of your comfort, whereas comfort just allows you to stay where you are and and not, you know, rock the boat. But when somebody else in your relationship comes in and they're rocking the boat, that's very disconcerting and many times you become the villain in their story.

Melissa: 28:13

And so you have to just get to a space and place where at first it felt like, oh, they're pushing back, maybe I'm doing something wrong, and I had to realize. No, they're pushing back out of their own discomfort. This does not mean it's the wrong decision for you. Trust your inner knowing, trust your intuition. You know these are the steps you need to take for yourself. But pushing back doesn't mean don't believe the old narratives. You're being selfish. Stay true to this and also know that there's some people that want to come along with this, but they're so used to you showing up in a certain way that they're going to need a few cues and reminders. Others are just not going to be okay with it and they're going to choose a narrative that fits them, staying where they are, and you have to be able to accept that and move forward from that. So that's a lot about boundaries, but that's been my story and what I hear so many times from people when they're navigating this boundaries journey.

Mary: 29:12

There are so many things in there that I want to highlight. That was I mean, and I could make lots of bumper stickers from some of the stuff you just said.

Mary: 29:20

So the one thing and because you ended with this the systems, so the idea of system theory, the systems that we're in like homeostasis. So I want to put an asterisk on that for people that when they start a journey toward incorporating some of these boundaries and it is a continuum A boundary isn't like a hard yes, a hard no. It's a continuum. You use different boundaries for different situations, but the people in your system will want to put you back as the same cog, that same wheel that was turning the same way in their system. By changing, you are changing the whole system, because you're saying I don't want us to function in the way we've been functioning, and you're exactly right. Sometimes you walk away from something, from a relationship, from a person's behavior, because you do not anymore want to turn that same way. You want to be a different cog. You want to create a new world for yourself. So I love that and the idea that boundaries they take a lot of self-knowledge, a lot of bravery, all of those things, but they're very freeing.

Mary: 30:34

Yes, and you also talked, when you kind of launched into how the boundaries happen for you.

Mary: 30:41

You talked about curiosity, which is beautiful, because that's really about allowing something uncomfortable to exist and not to judge it and also to test the evidence. I mean, we often get these messages when we're young and we internalize them and so often we're functioning based on a belief that that's true. And it's so interesting because in a recent episode I talked with another therapist about the process of therapy and I had somebody reach out to me that I know personally and we were discussing should she embark upon therapy, and one of the things she mentioned was someone that was close to her didn't really believe in it, that it wasn't like it's only for people that are quote crazy or and so it's sort of this idea that you use the word selfish, that we hear a word when we're young and we internalize that that becomes a measurement for us and we look at our behavior very critically because we're weighing. Does this make me selfish, and I think we have to be able to redefine what that word means what that word means.

Melissa: 32:09

Yeah, yes, we do. We do, and I think we have to also look at where it was coming from. I was able to, at some point, recognize that that was coming from a person who had no space to process her own emotions, didn't have any idea what to do with her own emotions, let alone mine as a child, and so also recognizing that so many times not saying that people can't be selfish that's not my point but also understanding what the actual definition of it is versus how it was being used with me, and that was my word that I heard. Like you said, we all have those different words, but I will tell you every single thing that I do throughout my life, even to this day, it comes up. I'm first and foremost is that selfish, or is that, or is this just healthy for me? My husband's like. I never, never, ever can think of one moment in time. We've been married for almost 32 years and together for 34. He's like. I can't think of one time I would have called you selfish, not one. I'm like. Well, that's good to know and it's good to hear that because he's he's he would also tell me if something like he's not just obviously he loves me and is for me, but he's we. We have very honest conversations with each other about you might want to think about this that way, or you might be tipping a little that way and he's like never, ever, ever. Can I think of ever? And my daughters are the same way, like mom. Just stop using that as a barometer. It just doesn't exist within you to be knowingly that way and we would tell you if it ever showed up. So that was an interesting to get their feedback on that, especially as my daughters grew up, you know.

Melissa: 33:43

But even within that, people can think it and say it to you till the cows come home. If you don't believe it in yourself, it will continue to come up. Because you know we talk about systems, the nervous system. When you're starting to make these adjustments, it's going to push back because it defines safety as what it knows. I always tell people it's going to feel a little odd at first because your system is not used to you showing up that way. You're going to have to retrain her on.

Melissa: 34:13

You know what this served me in this season, thank you. That's how my relationship with anxiety has been like. Thank you for showing up in that way that hypervigilance kept me emotionally safe, but I don't need that anymore. I've moved beyond that, and so let's, let's tap it down a few notches. Cause again, going back to where, if somebody responds a certain way or we feel uncomfortable, it's going to feel uncomfortable. We've never shown up that way before, and I still have to stop and tell myself this.

Melissa: 34:47

So I think that's really important too, to remember that you're going to get some pushback in your own body even and sometimes we mistake that for intuition and it's like, no, that's not the same as intuition. Your intuition got you on this path of realizing this is not healthy for intuition, and it's like, no, that's not the same as intuition. Your intuition got you on this path of realizing this is not healthy for me. And so it's overcoming that fear and remembering too, like, if this is fear-based, if this is fear trying to keep me from doing this, then I need to keep pushing forward. I need to not let fear be the narrative anymore. I need to not let fear be the narrative anymore.

Mary: 35:20

Yeah, that's a great point, because there's a system in your own body too, and we think we need to act a certain way to stay under the radar. And it goes back to the idea of staying small. Right, it's safe, it feels safe to stay small, but then you're not living your full life. So that intuition, I think, think, is really really valuable. But it can be confusing. And I think, to go back to two things, it's the curiosity that, wow, this feels really uncomfortable. What is that emotion? Is that fear?

Mary: 35:53

Because fear is a liar often, yes, and I think we can test the evidence. So just because someone else believes something is true and that includes your parents or other adults that were important to you growing up just because somebody else believes something is true doesn't mean that it's true for you or overall doesn't mean it's even empirically true. So I think, using those things as someone navigates, showing up differently in their own life, those are tools that can be kind of comforting. It's not like you have to. Just, you know, exist with that discomfort, you know, befriend it or look at it. Like if my best friend Sally was doing this thing would.

Mary: 36:37

I think that was selfish or would? I think that that's something that she shouldn't do and that can also be helpful because, again, we really apply that inner critic. That's why it's inner. We apply that much more to ourselves than we do to other people that we love.

Melissa: 36:57

We do. And I think the other thing that talk about is guilt is going to come up for a while too. When people have been used to you showing up in a certain way and if you've gotten the narrative delivered to you that blood is everything. We don't abandon blood relatives no matter what, no matter what's happening, there's no, you know. No, no, no, no, no. And when you've come to a point where you realize those relationships and how they show up in my life are hurting me more than they're helping me, if you've been in very codependent, enmeshed relationships especially, you're going to feel some guilt for a while.

Melissa: 37:30

That guilt doesn't mean you're doing anything wrong. It's again. It's those old narratives and the adjustment of the system, and I can honestly tell you that after a couple of years of really being, I no longer feel guilt anymore. I've passed the point where I very rarely and I'm very comfortable showing up in a way that's honoring to me, without crossing my own boundaries and getting me to into a space where I am going back into old habits or old ways.

Mary: 38:03

Well, and we've sort of used some words, like we use the word selfish and I want to talk a little bit about being human, like we aren't perfect. So I'm going to tell you right now there are times when I've taken an extra cupcake and is you know, like? Is that selfish? I don't know. But I think we also have to recognize that we're allowed to be imperfect and we need to make space for that. So here's a loaded question, melissa Are there such a thing as bad emotions?

Melissa: 38:45

bad emotions. No, no, I'm so adamant about this. I'm so adamant about this because emotions are clues and they let us know something needs to be tended to Now. We can respond or react badly within those emotions, and I think that's where the confusion lies, is we're told, especially as women, that anger is a bad emotion.

Melissa: 39:04

Anger can be very motivating to do things that need to be done, to make changes. It also is a clue to something what needs to be tended to here? And how can I move this anger through me in a way that's healthy, so it's no longer stored in my body? And I use anger as an example because that's something that came up very real for me in a way that's healthy, so it's no longer stored in my body. And I use anger as an example because that's something that came up very real for me in my therapy.

Melissa: 39:24

I had a lot of stuffed anger from experiences I'd been through that I'd never processed because I never felt safe to, and so my therapist gave me some.

Melissa: 39:34

She's like all right, I want you to get some pillows, I want you to find a. I had a brick wall like outside of my house, and she was like I don't want you to swing that pillow and work that out of your body, yell and scream what you need to yell and scream in terms of the words or spaces or experience that's connected to it and let's move that out. And that was a game changer, because I was allowed to process it, move it through, move forward from it. It was just screaming for my attention to be moved through and processed. I had a right to be angry about that, like that was a valid emotion in that circumstance and so that was the other thing. So I think that there are harder emotions and easier emotions 1000%. But the emotions are clues and I'm so passionate about people knowing the difference. It might feel bad, for sure, but the emotion in and of itself is a clue that something needs to be addressed and walked out and processed and moved through.

Mary: 40:45

Yeah, and I try to take the word bad kind of out of the discussion. So it feels uncomfortable, it feels yucky, it feels cringy, and you know, I think we can feel any way we want. We just can't do anything we want you know Right, but that's what?

Melissa: 41:02

yeah, exactly, it's that reaction to response that comes out of it. Yeah, that gets us in trouble.

Mary: 41:08

Yeah, and you know it's interesting that you bring up anger, because I think that is the emotion that I see women in my work as a therapist. I see women stuff that more than anything else and it's ironic to me that it's one of the only emotions that's acceptable. For men, yes, but for women we're crazy, we're hysterical and that's sometimes it's the acting out of the anger. But yeah, I think that that is something that we tend to internalize and there are often clients that I'll have that are just kind of telling me about these experiences they had in life and I'm thinking where's the anger here? And when I try to sort of move them to that, I think then fear comes up. I think we as women have been so conditioned to either deny our anger or we believe that we're hysterical or bad if we experience it that it makes us physically sick sometimes.

Melissa: 42:11

A hundred percent. It's funny because it took about three layers of removal, because my therapist, the first time she brought it up with me, she's like no, I feel sad, I feel irritated. She's like irritated is just a costume word for anger. I'm like okay, and so she started pointing out all these costume words. But we're dressing it up as something else because we've been been told such terrible things about us being angry, been told such terrible things about us being angry.

Melissa: 42:43

You know, and you've done a lot in faith spaces too, there's very misguided teachings about anger in faith spaces, and and so it's like no, no, no, anger itself is not the problem, it's what we've been taught and told about it. And so therefore, yes, we step it. And then we wonder why these explosions are happening. Something tips the cup and it just has to come out of you, because you've been storing it up rather than acknowledging it when it comes up and recognizing where it comes from, unpacking the true narratives, what's true, what's not true, and then like, okay, how can I move through this in an effective way? How can I use this to motivate me to make a necessary change in a way that's healthy, in a way that moves things forward and not in this explosive dynamic, can show up showing their anger in the same way.

Melissa: 43:33

And women have all like you, crazy, hysterical, uncontrollable. Where a man is like he's fired up, he's passionate, so that a lot of that comes with the things that we start teaching little girls and little boys and children in general when they're very young. We have to be very mindful of this and it's so embedded in the culture that, even if you grow up in a home with parents that are very mindful of this, and it's so embedded in the culture that, even if you grow up in a home with parents that are very mindful of this, it's so present in everyday life, in the classroom, in the workspace, in your social places that you are, that there's just always going to be unless we can get this steered in the right direction some places where it's got to be, impact and process, because you're going to bump into it somewhere, and I think it's the same for men with the emotion of sadness, like those thousand percent.

Melissa: 44:29

Yeah, I've had men on my show and it's for women, but a couple of men specifically Constantine Maroon, my friend, comes up to mind to talk about. Like guys, we need to take care of ourselves and tend to our emotions too, and it's killing us because we're carrying around this trope of toxic masculinity and it's taking us out and it's causing harmful behaviors and it's causing harm to our health. So these scripts are harmful to all sides of us. If we could start changing the narrative on that, everybody wins.

Mary: 45:03

Yeah, yeah. So I'm going to pull us back full circle to kind of tie all this up and talk to me a little bit and tell us what your self-care looks like now from everything you've learned. How do you define that for yourself?

Melissa: 45:20

I've got basic practices that I know help me. Every day I move my body. Every day I journal in some form, and sometimes it's writing down the emotions I'm feeling to help me know what I'm going to need that day. What do I need? More quiet. How is my schedule looking? Do I feel prepared for it? Are there some things that I need to pull back on? I look at all of that, so I journal, look at my calendar, meet myself where I'm at. Did I not sleep well? Did I sleep great? Do I have lots of energy? No, and so how can I prepare myself in that moment for that?

Melissa: 45:54

But knowing the movement is always there, the journaling is always there in some form. Sometimes I'll verbal journal. If I'm really there's a lot going on. It's hard to get it all in words on paper. I will just turn on my phone and record myself. Then I go back and listen to it and take notes on the things that I think I really need to unpack more. But that allows a really unedited, just blah, because I am an external processor, so sometimes I will implement that throughout the week.

Melissa: 46:25

I've got yoga and Pilates and mindful meditations like 15 minutes of just mindfully walking, being present in the moment, paying attention to my breath. I probably do that two or three times a week, but daily I move my body in some way. Every day the journaling and I really pay attention to how I fuel my body. Am I getting enough protein? Have I eaten yet? I start the morning with a combination of lemon water and ginger tea to just get my system set right before I have my coffee. This didn't just come up overnight. I had to sit and get present with myself and I used to start the day every day of just naming my emotions and then lining out what I needed. From there I'm finding now I'm a little more in tune to that. I don't necessarily have to get that specific and I've gotten familiar with trying different things over time. I know I need to do that. I'm moving my body's a non-negotiable. Whether it's a hit workout or yoga or lifting weights, whatever that is that day, or a walk, I try to get some steps in every day.

Melissa: 47:26

Get outside, like right now. I live in Fresno, california. The orange blossoms are blooming, you can step outside and it just smells beautiful, and that's not always the case here in the Central Valley all the time, but right now it does. So even if I have a super packed day with meetings and recordings, I will step outside for five to 15 minutes and just take in the fresh air. So those are the things that help me.

Melissa: 47:51

Also, if I'm in a really busy season, just 10 minutes of quiet, nothing. I'm not meditating, I'm not reading, there's no music, there's nothing. It's just quiet.

Melissa: 48:01

And we underestimate the power of just stillness and quiet, partly because sometimes we don't like what comes up within it. I used to not be a fan of this because all of the stuff that I hadn't been moving through and processing was bubbling up when I gave myself a minute to give it room to percolate to the top. Now this is a very refreshing activity for me and I tend to come out of that with new ideas, new thoughts. Also, same way when I'm doing my physical workouts, many times as I'm moving things through my body, because it's not only good for me physically, it's good for me mentally and emotionally. It's allowing me to move any tensions out, move any stressors out, move any toxins out, and then I'll get some of my freshest, best ideas when I'm in the middle of a rigorous workout and I'm like I keep a journal close by so I can jot them down so I don't forget them later.

Melissa: 48:54

So I would say, if you're looking for basics, move your body, smell some fresh air, 10 minutes of quiet, get enough water and fuel your body in a way that's going to be nourishing to you. And this is not restrictive diets, this is not eliminating things, just being mindful of fueling my body in a way that helps me move. Well, enjoy the piece of cake. You know these things need to be a lifestyle, not a restriction, but recognize those things that feel your body and help you to feel well, that's a beautiful list and I hope people took notes on that.

Mary: 49:31

But I think you know, self-care dovetails a lot with self-awareness Because, as you're saying, when you're doing these things, that are a lifestyle change and it's also intentional. So, self-awareness and intention, making it a routine, it's truly a lifestyle. So, can you consider wine with your girlfriend? Self-care, sure, but that's more like a treat.

Melissa: 49:54

Self-care is health care. I say that and I'm like so make sure your self-care and it's not that.

Mary: 50:23

So you gave a really great list and you have so many things that you offer the world. I know on your website there's a book Embracing Layers Unapologetically, but talk a little about what else you offer and where people can find you.

Melissa: 50:39

Yes, thank you so much for that. Go to embracinglayerscom and it's all there Our podcast episodes, our weekly YouTube panels that I do with other women talking about these topics, our book Embracing Layers. Unapologetically, the big thing that I'm doing now that I wasn't doing when I first started is I'm doing speaking engagements, and so if you want me to come talk to you about this feel framework, that I wasn't doing when I first started is I'm doing. I'm doing speaking engagements, and so if you want to me to come talk to you about this feel framework that I utilize, that helps me stay on track and that helps other women stay on track and invites women collectively into the conversation. The beauty of the book is I really encourage women to do this in a book club. Do this walk together, start naming activities that nourish you together, start naming who you are and identifying your character traits together, because you can hold each other accountable for that and not feel alone as you kind of start unpacking these things that maybe you haven't thought about in a long time, that are a core tenant of aligning your calendar and activities with your values and your why and your expectations out of your life, and so much a part of that so I can talk to you about that in person. Now, with the field framework, we can talk about the whole framework or individual parts of it. There's some groups like I'm speaking at a group in a couple of weeks down in Pasadena I'm gonna do the full framework to start the day, but then I'm having a round table on just boundaries later that day. So for those of you that this is the one that really gets you, we're gonna have a round table specifically about that so I can speak to you in person. And then I'm in the process of creating online courses that are going to be available I hope, by this summer online where you can get the full framework or you can get individual frameworks, and that gives you something to have on hand, especially for those women's networking groups or businesses, to have on hand Anytime a new group circulates through.

Melissa: 52:38

You. Have it with you on hand. I can come back every time if you want me to, but it's going to be a better deal for you economically if you get the online course and just have that and it's evergreen content. So, yeah, I'd love to come talk to you, but I'd also listen to our podcasts and our panels. These women have so many amazing stories and resources for you and those are all on our webpage, on our resources page, that you can access and find that thing that works for you.

Melissa: 53:08

I tell women all the time if you come to our platform, you're going to find at least one podcast, guest or panel that hits with you, because I bring in women from all over the world, all backgrounds in life, all ethnicities, faith spaces, socioeconomic spaces, relationship spaces, to help this be a welcoming space for women to feel safe, seen, heard, known in this space, and so we also have a sub stack as well and that's all. Like I said, go to embracingleaderscom and our sub stack is where we drop our blogs and our newsletters, and we're also starting to bring back our past guests that have books now and we're bringing them back for Substack Live so you can hear about their books and get access to that. So the beauty of mine is like it's my voice and framework, but it's all of these hundreds of women and their voices and their resources that we've brought together here to support women in this journey and remembering that you are worth valuing and take care of and prioritizing, not because of what you do, because of who you are.

Mary: 54:12

That's really beautiful. That's a great way to sum all of this up and so many good things that you offer, so I will definitely include your website in my show notes and thank you so much for talking with me today. This has been delightful.

Melissa: 54:26

Thank you so much, mary. I can't wait to have you on mine. I love what you're doing here. The more of us doing this, the better, because that's how we reach women with this message and invite them into this journey with us, and we can do this together. This is how we change narratives and make this world a safe place for women to live in as their authentic selves.

Mary: 54:49

Yeah, bringing women together is so important and I know it's part of both of our messages, and one of the best things about this podcast is the listeners and the community that we're creating. So I love hearing from you, whether it's to respond to an idea from an episode, to give a suggestion or simply to let me know how an episode affected you. So please consider leaving a review so others can more easily find me and follow the show, so you don't miss a thing. And until next time, go out into the world and be the amazing, resilient, vibrant violet that you are. Thank you.