Tarot Cards in the Doctor's Bag: Healing Beyond Science

Have you ever felt the powerful pull of something unexplainable, something that science alone couldn't quite capture? That's the fascinating territory we explore with Dr. Sue McCreadie, a holistic pediatrician who has expanded her practice in surprising ways to help women navigate their midlife transitions.

Dr. Sue shares her remarkable journey from conventional medicine to a holistic approach that embraces both scientific understanding and what some might call magic—those extraordinary influences that defy simple explanation. With warmth and wisdom, she reveals how numerical tarot became an unexpected tool in her practice, helping women connect with their subconscious patterns and unlock personal archetypes that guide their growth.

The conversation takes a deep dive into what Dr. Sue calls "second adolescence"—that transformative period in our 40s, 50s, and 60s when hormonal shifts coincide with profound questions about identity and purpose. We explore her framework of four midlife personality types (Visionary, Inspirational, Giver, and Detail Mamas), each with unique gifts and challenges. These insights provide a compassionate map for women wondering who they are beyond their roles as mothers, partners, or professionals.

Perhaps most powerfully, Dr. Sue addresses the fear many women have that personal growth will damage their relationships. Her experience suggests the opposite—that authentic development typically strengthens our connections or gives us the clarity to consciously choose new paths. The key lies in embracing uncertainty, following the "breadcrumbs" of joy, and trusting that what lights us up will lead us where we need to go.

Whether you're navigating hormonal changes, relationship shifts, or simply feeling called to something more, this episode offers both practical wisdom and soulful encouragement. 

Take Dr. Sue's personality quiz at drsuemccreadie.com and discover how understanding your essential nature can help you stop "shoulding" all over yourself and start living with authentic joy. Because when women rise, we truly do raise the vibration of the world.

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction to No Shrinking Violets
• 1:35 Magic and Science: Breaking False Dichotomies
• 3:15 Meeting Dr. Sue: Holistic Pediatrician & Transformation Expert
• 5:25 From Emergency Room to Holistic Medicine
• 8:45 Discovering Numerical Tarot and Spiritual Healing
• 19:30 Personality Types and Midlife Transformation
• 46:45 Following Joy: Embracing the Liminal Space

Transcript

Mary: 0:05

Welcome to no Shrinking Violence. I'm your host, mary Rothwell, licensed therapist and certified integrative mental health practitioner. I've created a space where we celebrate the intuition and power of women who want to break free from limiting narratives. We'll explore all realms of wellness, what it means to take up space unapologetically, and how your essential nature is key to living life on your terms. It's time to own your space, trust your nature and flourish. Let's dive in. Hey, violets, welcome to the show.

Mary: 0:42

I have a few of those life is good t-shirts. One of them says science is like magic, but real. I never really wear it anymore because I realized somewhere along the way that I don't necessarily believe that science and magic are mutually exclusive. Okay, hear me out.

Mary: 0:59

I think there are some of us that automatically react to the word magic as bad or as something that is incompatible with, maybe, religion or science. I don't believe that Merriam-Webster defines magic as an extraordinary power or influence, seemingly from a supernatural source. Magic is something unexplainable, attributed to a force we don't understand and, while some may disagree, isn't a miracle. In its essence, magic Isn't having faith, believing in something we can't see. To me, it's really semantics. We can easily find accounts of people who had incurable cancer, only to survive for years longer than their prognosis said they would. They might attribute their survival to prayer. It's a miracle from God, but plenty of people who worship in different ways or pray to different gods have the same experience of survival. I'm not necessarily saying it was magic, but it was certainly something less explainable, less quantifiable than science.

Mary: 2:02

My mind started down this path because my guest today is a medical doctor who supports women on their journey through the application of science. My mind started down this path because my guest today is a medical doctor who supports women on their journey through the application of science and sometimes numerical tarot. In my 35 years as a therapist, I can tell you that, while my training didn't include a spiritual treatment plan, when people can connect to a higher frequency, they're often able to move through issues that resist purely science-based treatment. I'm certainly not anti-medication, but I do know that, because we are nature as much as plants and trees are, we can heal from events and traumas in ways that maybe we can't imagine at first, until we're able to open the channels and make it more clear.

Mary: 2:41

Today I'm talking with Sue McCreadie. Dr Sue is a holistic pediatrician and midlife transformation expert who helps women in their 40s, 50s and 60s navigate hormones, heartbreak and healing so they can stop settling and start living with joy. Her mission to make transformation simple, soulful and even fun, because when women rise, we raise the vibration of the world for our children. She believes every path is divinely perfect, quirks are sacred and joy is medicine, and I could not agree more. Welcome to no Shrinking Violets, dr Sue.

Dr. Sue: 3:16

Wow, mary. Oh my goodness, I could listen to you for hours. I'm glad you're writing a book.

Mary: 3:24

Oh, thank you

Dr. Sue: 3:31

I mean wow is all I have to say about that intro. I get to listen to that 50 times. It's just such a validation for the work I do, so thank you.

Mary: 3:40

You're welcome and I can't wait to dive in and learn more about your work. So could we start with you telling us a little bit about your own journey, like how did you decide to meld your medical training with your current mission?

Dr. Sue: 3:52

Well, it was definitely an evolution and really, first and foremost, I think the overarching umbrella of it all is following your joy, following your passion, following what lights you up, even if it looks crazy on the outside, because often it does but you get, and also you get to keep following it. So I became a medical doctor, in all honesty, because of my mama. She is 92. No, no, 90. At the age of this recording she's 90. And when I was a child, growing up, she's an emergency room nurse and back in the 80s, like you could take your kids to work, including to the ER, like there was no HIPAA laws or anything like that. So kids went to the ER too. So I went to the emergency room with my mom and I just fell in love with it. I was like, wow, and I just fell in love with it. I was like, wow, this is where I get to really see what mom does, and also like she's helping people. That's what I see, like these people are helping people and that feels really good. I want to be. I want to be a nurse mom.

Dr. Sue: 4:58

And my mom if you're familiar with the DIS profile she's a very dominant, independent thinker. I call them visionary mamas. She's also really great at details and she was like be a nurse, I mean, be a doctor, don't be a nurse, right? And I was like wait, you know? And her whole line of reasoning was give the orders, don't take the orders. So as you can see her personality, she likes to give the orders. I honestly, I mean I'm grateful for that guidance. It tells a lot about the influence we have on our kids, because I never second guessed her. I wasn't like, oh okay, I just said, all right, I'm going to be a doctor.

Dr. Sue: 5:36

And so off to the marches I went and it was kind of a little bit of a rough and tumble becoming a doctor, because what I really love are people and I love helping other people. So my major was always psychology. I love human behavior and I wasn't really into the science. Mary, like to be honest, like I guess, like you could say, I was into the social sciences. What you love is what I love, right, like I love behavior, I love human psychology. So when I went to into med school I thought, well, I'll become a psychiatrist.

Dr. Sue: 6:06

Until I went on my psychiatry rotation and I was like, no turns out in today's day and age in medicine, like I did not see that that was going to be of my great of service to be in psychiatry, and it did not fill my soul at all. Kids did, though. When I went on the pediatric rotation, I was like, wow, kids make me a better person period. Like I just light up, I want to be my best for them, I want to show up every day for them, and they're just like the light of the world to me.

Dr. Sue: 6:36

So I often march as I went to become a pediatrician, and when I finished my training, I decided to stay on an extra year as the pediatric chief resident, which meant that, like I had another year to figure out what I get to do and also teach which I love teaching and so it gave me the kind of the space and grace to figure out what, where am I going to go within pediatrics? And so I actually, right after that year, launched my own pediatric practice, which is kind of like unheard of in this day and age, yeah, and even 20 years ago it was definitely, and I think a lot of my mentors were like wow, she's jumping off a cliff into death, like they did not see how this was going to work. However, one did and she was great. She was like this is awesome, I think this is great, like flap your wings and go, and I did, and within a couple of years I had my oldest daughter, and that clarity of having my daughter is really and she's right there, she's like over my shoulder. She gave me such crystal clarity about not wasting a minute of my time doing something that didn't really light up my soul, and at the time she was born, I was still doing primary care pediatrics, because that's what I was trained to do is to be a primary care pediatrician and also, though it wasn't really lighting up my soul, what lights up my soul is really helping children heal from the inside out. So I pivoted my practice and that's what I've been doing, for I'm now in my 23rd year of practice of helping kids heal nutritionally.

Dr. Sue: 8:16

Nutrition is my focus, so some would think of me as, like a functional medical doctor is what we call them Back then we didn't have a name for it.

Dr. Sue: 8:22

It's just like what I chose.

Dr. Sue: 8:25

But how I got to here, in terms of helping women navigate their 40s, 50s and 60s and sustain happiness despite all the curveballs that are thrown our way midlife is by figuring out like is a kind of a twisty turny path of moms in my practice come and say, well, how can you help me?

Dr. Sue: 8:45

Right, and initially I thought, oh, you want me to be your functional medical doctor? And I was like, oh, that doesn't fit, so sorry, I cannot do that. So I tried different versions of it, you know, and ultimately I like started and stopped a few different entrepreneurial businesses supporting women, and the last one was coaching which cracks me up, mary, because I hired a coach to figure this whole thing out a decade ago and I said all I know is I don't want to be you coaching. A decade later, I turn around and be like I am you coaching. So yeah, it's been a beautiful ride and I would say the ultimate theme is just like following the breadcrumbs right, like they don't always make a lot of sense when you're following them, but ultimately you start to put the pieces.

Mary: 9:36

You there, okay. First of all, I want to highlight the fact that it was your mom that said don't be a nurse, be a doctor, and it goes to the whole thing about, you know, this idea of socialized scripts that typically men pursue medical school and women pursue nursing school and not to downplay anybody that is a nurse, Because it is one of the anything physical.

Mary: 10:04

Give me a mental illness above a physical illness any day of the week and the hard work that because I worked at colleges where we train nurses and I know how hard it is. Those rotations are very, very hard so I truly admire it. But I think giving you that message that you can go in whatever direction you want to is so empowering.

Dr. Sue: 10:25

It is. I agree with you too, because at first, when I say that that's the truth of what was said, that's what I remember.

Dr. Sue: 10:31

And I never want to take that as like I can honor the ground where nurses walk on. Yes, whenever I've been a patient, it's the nurses that you fall in love with, it's the nurses that are the bridge right. They're like, literally, you've got them on each arm, like okay, we're walking right. So, yes, and I agree, and I do believe like it really was her expanding my viewpoint right, because in her day and age, you, there weren't really female doctors, like it was. You're going to be a nurse or you're going to be a teacher. Those were like the two primary pathways for careers.

Mary: 11:04

Yes, yeah, and I also like the idea that you tried different things and you know, I think people have an idea that success is linear and it's not linear. There's a lot of you have to go down paths and you know that idea of we think of failure. It's not failure, it's, it's a learning experience, because that's really if everything always worked out, what would you learn?

Mary: 11:28

So I like, too, that you were exploring that. So here's what came to mind when I read your information for a while, because I did sort of the same thing as you and I actually I'm now certified in functional nutrition. So I think that is so powerful. And I wanted to add that to my you know my license in therapy, because we're a whole being. You know we're not just from the makeup.

Mary: 11:51

But I was sort of working in that period of to post menopausal space and even in the year or two I was doing that, it started to be so much louder and more confusing. Confusing and so many like messages out there that simplify things. And you know, I think we're a society that we want something that like give me a pill. We've been trained to think it should be fast. Nutrition's not fast. All of the things that I saw on your website. They're not fast. So tell me how that's been for you to, because it's just getting, I think, because it's having a moment which it should, I think everybody's kind of like. I think I'll focus on this because there's so many women going into menopause becoming aware that they don't have to stay silent, and there's way more layers to this. So what has been your experience in working with this? How has that been for you?

Dr. Sue: 12:50

I would agree and I think that's why I've chosen not like I. I agree with the fact that it's not simple, it's not easy and I feel like that's why I chose not to focus on women's health and physical health, because I was like, wow, this is a lot going on here and it is in kids and chronic health, kids situations too. However, I just feel like that's like I don't know I get to unravel that ball. It seems a lot easier to me. So that was kind of like the first pivot of just honoring like wow, there are a lot of physiological changes happening in a woman's life in her forties, fifties and sixties, and I think of hormone, I think of like midlife or menopause. Perimenopause is really like second adolescence, right, so it allows people who maybe aren't at the stage in life, or maybe for your kids Cause that's how I explained to my kids I was like remember, like when you first started shooting out all those hormones and like your body feels so uncomfy, like you no longer even feel physically normal in your body because it's shifting and your identity is changing, right, like you think of adolescents are declaring themselves, they're figuring out who they are in the world, and I figure like midlife is the same way. It's like who am I now if I'm not raising these kids? Who am I now if I'm no longer you know, someday I won't be a doctor anymore Like, well then, who am I? Right? So you have these identity changes. You have a lot of relationship changes, including with your kids. If you have kids, your relationship changes because they're no longer, like, dependent on you. Like we just went through, like moving to college kids and one's a senior ones is starting her freshman year and, like the seniors, like old hat, okay, we got this, like away, you go, you know. And this middle one, it was like, oh my gosh, there's like this big gaping hole in our home right now because she's not here, right? So you go through all these changes of like yay, I'm so happy for you and oh, this feels so different. And so all these changes are happening.

Dr. Sue: 14:44

And what I love about that and coming back to like how, how, what I've chosen to focus on this area for women in their 40s and 60s is like how do we navigate that and still feel happy in the process? Like how do we sustain happiness even if our body's changing all of a sudden? My skirt doesn't fit like it used to, and that makes me sad. How do we flip that into what's great about this is right? And so, using all these you know personal development frameworks that I've learned along the way in terms of shifting and flipping the script?

Dr. Sue: 15:19

Or like I just you know, even this morning I had a client where she's got a new physical symptom right and she's a licensed professional in health, so she immediately goes to I've got cancer right, like I always start out, like isn't it funny we just we focus and we just go to like worst case scenario right, and then we just start oh my gosh, I'm gonna die before my kids and I'm not going to be here to see the grandkids. Like we just start oh my gosh, I'm gonna die before my kids and I'm not gonna be here to see the grand. Like we just create all these scenarios and so really like kind of piecing apart like what is that really right? And absolutely doing the strategy of like okay, ask for help, find the clinician, do some testing right, like the practical, which I think is the easier part.

Dr. Sue: 16:03

The harder part is wrangling our mind like lassoing it in to focus on what's going right. What's great about this is you're paying attention to your body. What's great about this is symptoms are a sign of something shifting. What's great about this is we live in America, where we have great health care. What's great about this is right, so starting to stack all the good things you know for her to focus on. So I there's just something about that that feels, like you said for my mom, like so empowering. I feel like that's what I'm doing is just like helping women, like okay, this is happening, and yet still this how we can move forward in an empowered way.

Mary: 16:44

Yeah, and when those shifts happen physically, I mean so much for women is a focus on what do we look like? And that's so much of that narrative, that social narrative you have worth. Depending what you look like and as those things shift, then it is sort of this okay, my identity, that's a huge thing because your identity changes. But the other thing that I think that your approach also addresses is, as we go through life and we do our thing, we establish our career, we raise our kids we're having traumatic experiences, and it doesn't need to be big, sweeping trauma.

Mary: 17:26

But when we have any loss we lose a pet, or a relationship ends, we get remarried, or we thought we were going to get married, or you know or we lose a job we love, or we even change jobs all of those losses accumulate in our body.

Mary: 17:40

And so I feel like you know, I had a friend of mine call it the second spring when we go through menopause, and to me as a gardener that is so beautiful because we do have tremendous hormonal shifts that we can't do anything about. But what we can do something about is exactly what you're saying our mindset, how we frame it and start to take the time for ourselves to look at. What have I really been through, that I never took the time to examine and find a place for in my heart, and all of those things which I think that lights me up Like I love that being able to assist, because that's what my private practice is. It's really women in the exact age range you're talking about and I just I love that they're finally able to take time for themselves and look at those things.

Dr. Sue: 18:27

That's so beautiful. I love your garden analogy. I often use a garden for analogy, for gut health, yes, yeah, but, as you were talking about, because that's what I do in kids, as you were talking now, I was like, isn't that what we're doing? I'm really helping them, like, pull the weeds in the garden so more flowers can grow and really focus on growing the flowers, right, and just consistently pulling the weeds, and I feel like the weeds are traumas, big or little, you know, which is just the state of our nervous system going through different changes that were presented with in life and sort of figuring out how can I shift the perspective on what quote unquote happened to me. So I see it as happening for me or for the greater good, Right, and I feel like that shift in perspective is what, yeah, really catapults forward for us to, like you know, grow a beautiful garden.

Mary: 19:23

Yeah, okay, I'm going to take the side street that I teased in my intro. Tell us about numerical tarot. Now, I've had my tarot cards, read the numerical part I don't quite get, but I'm sure there's people listening that really don't have any idea. So can you give us a foundation? And then, how do you use that with women?

Dr. Sue: 19:45

don't have any idea. So can you give us a foundation? And then, how do you use that with women? Okay, beautiful, I'll first start before I give the foundation is like how did I even stumble upon this? Because it does follow the same frame of reference that I introduced at the beginning, which is I just followed my heart and we, my husband and I, were on a getaway weekend in Asheville, north Carolina. We were just strolling the streets, walking into the stores and one store I walk into. It was like Christmas, it was just bursting for me and I was walking around the store. I was just drawn to this back right corner where I was like particularly to this deck of cards. It was like just this energetic pull of like. I picked them up. I'm like I don't even know what this is. It says tarot. I've heard that word before. I'm not sure what exactly that is, but I get to have this deck of cards, is what I said. So then I got home and I have this deck of cards and I'm like well, what do I do with this, you know? And since I'm a learner and I love learning, I just found, you know, I found a teacher. I found a teacher and learned more about it's purcled in. So tarot for those of you who have never heard this word, tarot is basically used to be a deck of playing cards back in, like, I think, the 1500s or so, and it was just like you play with these cards, like now we play with a 52 card deck, like they played with these tarot cards. Right and through time and evolution, people have used them in different ways and I'll share how I'm going to, how I use them.

Dr. Sue: 21:11

Numerology is the study of numbers. Numbers have patterns and I have always seen like different number patterns for a couple, like a few decades now actually, where I would see like a one, one, one, and then a two, two, two and then a five, five, five. And I was like what is going on here? So that I was introduced to like angel numbers or messages. And it really came into my life when I was having multiple miscarriages and it felt so like God. It just felt like God speaking to me. It felt like someone was seeing my pain and like giving me purpose. It felt like someone was like just keep going, so I would just get these little breadcrumbs and they were just life giving to me. So I started to notice the pattern and write down little messages and kind of take notes. I feel like they're like little God winks, you know, like you look at a license plate and it's like pops up. So just kind of putting those things together was the first time I thought about numbers.

Dr. Sue: 22:05

But more recently, around this time of tarot, I learned that there's a whole study called numerology that I had never heard of, which is studies of numbers and and all different ways of doing that. Pythagoras is one of them. You know Pythagorean, like we've heard from math in terms of practical, but he actually used to have a school that incorporated the studies of numbers and that numbers carry energies in themselves, right, which makes sense because really in quantum physics, like everything is energy. The desk right here is energy, is just more solid than than the air, right? So I was like okay, and since I was learning them at the same time, I started just blending the two together, because, tarot, these cards have numbers on them, and so I started looking at how the two go together.

Dr. Sue: 22:55

Now, how I use them. I use them like a psychologist or a therapist or, you know, psychiatrists may use what we call the inkblot, right, where it's that white piece of paper with black on it, and then they say look at it, what do you see? Right? Yeah, and the idea is that we all see a little something different. Something else pops up and and I look at that as like a connection to the subconscious, because in personal development, we've learned that our current behaviors and habits and therefore results right, what we're currently experiencing right now is from driven primarily more so from our subconscious thoughts and our subconscious feelings and our subconscious limiting beliefs and our subconscious or empowering beliefs too, like subconscious beliefs and rules right. And so when we're looking to get different results, whether that's in our health, our relationships or our, you know, work or mission in the world, we get to uncover those deeper roots which are the subconscious you know beliefs and and rules and and thoughts and things that we don't even think about on a conscious level, right. And so I started realizing like wow, this is just a great tool for me to connect to the person subconscious, like she's doing the work for me in essence, right. So I look at it as like that's that if I had, like, a doctor's bag, that's my doctor's bag. That's, that's the tool like I'm using in coaching.

Dr. Sue: 24:37

Instead of a stethoscope, I am using tarot cards, and not with everyone, because some people, just the way that they, you know, their dogma what they're working with, like one of the clients that I was working with this morning. She's Catholic, you know, and so this in her world is not important, right? What's important is my relationship with God and source, and she reads the Bible every day and I honor all pathways to God, right, all pathways to source, all pathways to universe. It's like whatever lights you up and keeps you moving forward on the straight and narrow path, and fun path is great and that's the big thing I see with tarot too, is that it is fun.

Dr. Sue: 25:18

So part of the principle of it is like we're all born on a certain date, like I was born on March 8th 1972. So if you add up three plus eight plus one plus nine, plus seven plus two, you get 30, and three plus zero is three. So we can all reduce our birth dates to a number that's between one and nine and those correspond to a tarot card because they're numbered one through nine. So like when I'm a number three, I don't know if. Do you know what you are, mary, if you add up your birth?

Dr. Sue: 25:51

date have you ever done that before?

Mary: 25:53

No, but we can do it.

Dr. Sue: 25:54

Okay, let's do that. Let's see. By the way, don't even think I do this in my head anymore, because I get my handy dandy calculator.

Dr. Sue: 26:30

Yes. So this is fun, okay. So two in the tarot is the high priestess and three in the tarot is the Empress. So you're two, I'm a three I always think of like this is fun because the high priestess is she's got a big old direct funnel to source. She's very, very intuitive. She's very connected to source or god or universe, however you see it, she, um, yeah, and she's, I think of her like if the feminine has like a masculine, it's like a feminine entity has kind of a masculine and feminine. She's a little bit more feminine, she's a little more intellect, right, the high priestess would be kind of more of the empath of the feminine. So she's like the mother of all mothers. So she's like in her, you know, queendom, in her garden she's always birthing something you know. She's really creative, yeah, and she's into love and beauty, like love is, you know, her driving force. But she's like the mother of all mothers, right, and? And so that's where I show, like if I was in a client session and I was with you, mary, I'd show you the high priestess.

Dr. Sue: 27:44

When you see the high priestess, you're just like wow, like it, just it connects, you'll connect with certain parts of it, right, and like, when I see the Empressress, I just always connect with her pregnant belly.

Dr. Sue: 27:57

You know it's like no wonder I focus on mothers and kids. I'm an empress, you know, like that makes perfect sense. That career path for me and so that's what it brought to me is like more of an understanding, you know, more of a. And these are all archetypes, like, yes, I have the high priestess within me too. I get to activate her, I get to turn her up Right, and, and so, you know, we all have these different archetypes, which are just patterns of behavior, you know. And when we start to activate them, you know that's when we start to hear, like, sometimes I just need to hear what the high priestess has to say on this matter, right, yeah, sometimes I just need to plug into my creativity, and a big thing with the Empress is learning how to receive right, like learning how to be receptive rather than always the giver Right. So, yeah, that's kind of how I play with it.

Mary: 28:53

Wow, thanks for doing that. I of how I I play with it. Wow, thanks for doing that. I already feel like I'm sitting a little taller.

Dr. Sue: 29:03

Just you saying I'm like high priestess, I'm like, oh, I love that, yeah. And one of the things like, did you say I've already lost it on my calendar? Did you say you're? Did you say you're January 23rd, right, your? Did you say your January 23rd, right, yeah? So so two plus three is five, and five is the hero event, which I had never heard that word before.

Dr. Sue: 29:19

But it's like a teacher, it's a student and a teacher, which I see a lot in your, in your path so far, right, of not only learning more information, but also like being able to share that, being able to teach that, like whether it's through your practice or your book, right. And so another big number for us is the actual day we were born on. So if you're, you know, if you're a high priestess and number five, that would be the fifth, the 14th or the 23rd of a month, right? So, yeah, it's just like there's patterns and to me, the whole reason I like numerology and playing with tarot and archetypes is because I love human behavior. I've known that from the beginning.

Dr. Sue: 30:03

I also with patterns. A big part of personal development is see the pattern and use the pattern. Instead of the pattern, using you so you can create a new pattern. So to me, it's just like when I knew that there was a study of numerology and that there's these patterns happening. Like we're at the year 2025, two plus two plus five is nine. We're in a hierophant year. And now, like I just started being like how can I use this information so that I'm working with it instead of feeling like rough and tumbled by it? Right, which I think is a lot of what astrology is. Like it's not predetermined destiny. Like I believe we're born conscious with free will. It's just like can we use this information to become a little bit more enlightened as we're going through this growth process, right, and so sometimes it can feel super supportive and, like you said, kind of stand a little taller, you know, and just understand a little bit more about ourselves and more about others and, yeah, what we're going through.

Mary: 31:03

Yeah, I talk a lot about limiting narratives, especially with women, and I think this I could see it being a really powerful tool to give them permission to explore something that maybe they have a sense about, and this is what I when I talk about essential nature. We all, as kids, I think, know who and what we are and what we love, and then, as our environment happens, we have to survive our environment and then to come back around to be able to figure out who are we really, because I would always go to the woods when I was a kid I would go into the forest and I loved that and I read books that usually about fantasy stuff, and so later, you know, you grow up, girls hit middle school and the things you don't climb trees because you're not. You know you don't do all of those things anymore because it's then you're a weirdo. You know you don't do all of those things anymore because then you're a weirdo. So I think, as we connect back to that, I think as adult women, especially in this age we've been talking about, you know you have this sense in.

Mary: 32:05

What I sense from you is just not only confidence, but just you expand people and I think even just hearing you observe that for somebody can be that powerful permission for a woman to say, well, I never really thought of myself as a high priestess, but tell me more. And then I think you start to open up to that because you know, so often we reflect what we think others believe us to be. And when somebody believes that you have certain things and I love the other side of it too like where might that be a drawback for your life? Because nothing is ever 100% positive, right? And so also embracing that shadow part of ourselves, like what are the things that I might cringe at or be embarrassed, and how can I use them as a strength? So that was a lot I just kind of tossed out there, but I just that's.

Dr. Sue: 33:00

I love what I heard is limiting narrative Love that I also heard. What I do is expand, like expand possibilities and expansion is a big word that describes a three. Just think of it like one plus one right Of a mom and a dad or two partners coming together. Creating a third like a family, is expansion, you know? Yeah, so one plus one doesn't equal two, like it's three. You're creating like a whole third entity.

Mary: 33:41

Anyways, yeah, that's really fun. I love that. Yeah, so there was something I wanted to ask about. Let me look here. Okay, so I think sometimes and this is a little stereotypical, but I think sometimes women go through into this stage of life, this sort of middle stage, and they may continue to have done some things in the context of their marriage or their partnership or their family, and it's not comfortable, but they keep doing it because they're not sure how to, like, move out of that. So what I've heard sometimes from women is how do I move into this new space or be this different type of person? Like, let's say, you've been married for 15 years or 20 years?

Mary: 34:23

And all of a sudden you're thinking I want to go in this different direction. What is my partner going to think or how's it going to impact my family? So is that something that comes up in your work, and how would you help a woman sort of move through that that worry or that concern?

Dr. Sue: 34:40

So am I hearing the question correctly of, like something's shifting, something's changing, and how do I get more comfortable with being in that change?

Mary: 34:51

Yeah, and sort of the idea of how does a woman's personal growth impact her family and if she has a concern.

Dr. Sue: 34:56

Oh, my goodness.

Mary: 34:57

Yeah, impact impacting her family impact Cause I think we tend to think it's going to be a negative. People aren't going to like it. Oh, so I think of it as maybe people might be a little uncomfortable in the beginning, but I think that growth can only be positive. But I'm curious about your thought on that.

Dr. Sue: 35:17

This brings up a lot of well. First of all, it brings up a funny client story that I was helping. Again, I only work with women, so I'm only working with, like one side of the dance. This person happened to be married in a relationship that experienced infidelity. So let's say there's takes two to tango and at one time the person that I wasn't coaching was like is this going like this personal development you know cause I'm working in the women who's like personally developing? And you know she was married to her, you know, and it's still married to her husband. And he was like is this like honestly? At one point he's like I think this is going to kill us, like this is going to be the end of us, right, you know, and it is kind of like navigating some really uncomfy waters and I feel like that's really a part of my big life contract is I'm there for the transitions, right?

Dr. Sue: 36:13

And this particular couple had experienced infidelity in the relationship and was really like really rocky and then would get stable and then would like really get rocky again, and it was all about like perspective and understanding, like what does this mean? And like how, how do we move forward with this sacred, broken contract, in essence, right, and so anyways, I'm laughing because at that point that was somewhere in the middle, like maybe like a third to maybe like almost to the halfway point. By the last time I met with this woman because we only worked together for like six months it was pretty amazing. He was popping his head in hey, dr Sue, how are you? I was like, oh my gosh, you. And so I think that's like case in point of one of the things that my one of my big mentors, who's taught me a lot about personal development is Tony Robbins, and one of the things that he says is the quality of your life is determined by the amount of uncertainty you can comfortably handle.

Mary: 37:22

Yeah.

Dr. Sue: 37:22

The quality of your life is determined by the amount of uncertainty you can comfortably handle, and so me kind of popping into their to some equation was massive uncertainty. I would say more so for the husband than it was even for the woman. Yeah, and so they. They navigated it, though Cause we it always takes two to tango and that's why people are always like how's this going to work If husband's not here or my partner's not here? You know, and always like you change. They have to change because it's a relationship one doesn't you know. And I think that's why it's so interesting, because what I heard the second time you related to the question is that some women are they afraid to like, develop themselves because they feel like they're going to rock the boat too much and the risk is someone will leave me. Usually I'll be. It's a loss that they, they foresee a loss happening.

Dr. Sue: 38:21

My experience for myself, going through this process for myself I can just speak for myself. It has brought me nothing but more, more connection with my husband, more connection with my children, more connection with my patients and my clients. My personal development, like I was talking about. I'm a pediatrician. I've never read a parenting book. I'm a mother of three. I've never read a parenting book. I just feel like relationships are a reflection, like a mirror, right, life's just a mirror reflecting our unease with ourselves. And so when we, the more we work on ourselves, you know, the more and our relationships, you know, expand, and I do think that that it can lead to conscious uncoupling, if that makes sense, like we can have personal development where we come to a point in understanding which I navigated one of my daughters through, that right.

Dr. Sue: 39:23

It's like, unfortunately, this person, you're meeting their top two needs. Like you're meeting their needs and they're not meeting yours. So they're never going anywhere, sweetheart, they're going to stick around forever because you're meeting their needs and they're not meeting yours. So they're never going anywhere, sweetheart, they're going to stick around forever because you're meeting their needs, you know. But if they're not meeting your needs, that's when you're going to get to say like this just isn't working for me, I love you and also this is over, you know. So I think, doing it in a conscious way, rather than saying there's something wrong with you, I'm leaving because of you, it's like, oh, I totally own this. Like I have these needs. You're not meeting them, you know, and I know you're you're trying to and it's just not working Right. And we've tried to do this and work together. And also, this isn't working, so you can consciously uncouple that way. That makes sense.

Mary: 40:10

Oh yeah, for sure.

Mary: 40:12

I think there's a lot of fear that comes in because fear of being alone or fear of starting to be too much, because that is one of the narratives as women, don't be too much, stay small, play it safe. And as we explore ourselves and what we really want and do this thing you know we talked about expanding. That is something I talk about all the time take up your space. But I think part of taking up your space means you use your voice, you give your opinion, you might make choices that you hadn't made in the past, and I think there's always fear because, like you mentioned, if someone doesn't like it, if we have been conditioned to do the thing that pleases people and we're no longer doing that, it's also arriving at the space to be able to say but it's right for me and that makes it okay.

Dr. Sue: 41:08

And I think I don't know what your experience is, but my experience is depending on your personality type and again, we all carry all types of personalities. Personalities, again, are patterns of behavior but we kind of have different set points and you know, that's why on my website I have a quiz to discover your I call them mama types your midlife personality type. And to me, some of the things that you're bringing up right now, mary, are very common for what I call the giver, mamas of the world. So like one personality type like is a visionary. Visionary is like I think of her, like the Beyonce's of the world, like the Gwyneth Paltrow, so just like I'm here, you got a problem with it, that's your problem. Like I'm going this way, get out of my way, you know. And we look to them because they're so confident, they're so just own it, they just so say it how it is. And we're just like can I have a piece of that? Like how does she do that? Right? And like you said, every upside has its downside. So I would say the downside of a visionary mama is like she can really bowl over people in her way. So relationships can be a little tricky for her, you know, sometimes it's really hard for her to intimately like into me. You see, like intimacy, vulnerability, like really allowing others to see her weaknesses, can be very challenging for her.

Dr. Sue: 42:34

The inspirational mama is the one who's like sunshine. You know she's the energy in the room, she's the one you go to because she's always going to have silver lining every crappy situation that's going on in your life, right. And the downside is she can get really distracted. Shiny objects are everywhere. I want this and that and this. You know it diffuses her energy, right. The giver mama, like you were mentioning, can very much be more like the upside of the giver mama. Oh, my gosh, she's a giver Like. She's a woman who, just like she's the natural mama inside all of us, like, come to me, get inside my womb If you need to, like, let me just take care of you, let me hold you, Let me listen to you. She's an incredible soul and the heart.

Dr. Sue: 43:20

The downside for her is she can become, you know, kind of a doormat. You know, like boundaries are problems. She can become a real people pleaser, like doing everything for everyone else, and she becomes last and leads to feelings like resentfulness and bitterness, right, and then the last is a detailed mama who is like dotting our I's, crossing our T's. She's proofreading your papers, you know, like you read it 500 times and she sees like you missed that and we look to her to keep us organized and on set. She'll come over to your house and organize your cabinets and it fills her up, you know.

Dr. Sue: 43:58

And the the downside of the of the detail mama could be that like life can get a little dry, like loosen it up, allow some more spontaneous spontaneity to come through right. So I I say that all to describe that the tendencies that I most run into for women that I personally work with are definitely more of like the giver variety, where I'm depleted, I'm depressed, I'm overwhelmed, I'm bitter, like why am I always doing all the things right? She's contorting herself in all different ways, including just getting smaller, staying silent, saying nothing Right, and just like thinking if I just get small enough, won't that be enough for them. You know.

Mary: 44:47

Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Sue: 44:49

So, yes, I see a lot of that, and I think that's why, I'm sure, in your work too, like we talk so much about boundaries, where I end and you begin, and I think that's the beauty of like. I work with group coaching too, and I think that's the beauty of like, if you have a visionary and a giver in the same, you know they're going to call forward each other. They're going to be like girl, you've got this, like stand up, pull those bootstraps up. You know, and others will be like I think you need to sauce it a little bit. Oh, let us into you a little bit more. And so I love that collectively, we can call each other forward as women. It feels super safe, you know, because we're in, like a safety, safe space.

Mary: 45:36

I think women's circles and women's groups are really powerful in that way Because unfortunately sometimes we're set up to be competitors. That's happens on social media and I hate it, but I think when you actually bring women together, especially if you're in a physical shared space, I think that I've seen that be really life-changing, even in a short time, because we do have such power to support each other and help everybody know like they're okay.

Mary: 46:05

You're okay just as you are. Here's my experience. I went through this thing because you can also feel like nobody else is feeling like this. It has to just be me. So that's what I love about it too you reflecting back to each other. You know what you're seeing, the beauty of what you're seeing. So I imagine women are listening right now and feeling this sort of call to expand into these kinds of ways that we're talking about. And I know that you do have your quiz, which I took, and do you want to take a guess? It ended up, unfortunately, in my promotions tab and I didn't see it. I could only skim it, but I know what I am, so I want to see if you can get.

Dr. Sue: 46:49

Okay, what I see in you, what comes forward to me in you, is definitely a giver mama and a detail mama. That's what I see in you. What did it say?

Mary: 47:00

Detail.

Dr. Sue: 47:01

Detail.

Mary: 47:02

Yeah, so I have to read more. I have to read more about that. Because when you said I think it's also this part of my life, because when you said bringing in more spontaneity right now, trying to build a business, that part is because you don't want to miss something or you don't.

Mary: 47:17

You know, I feel like I have so many irons in the fire and I like when I look away from one, I'm like, oh, I have to look over here. And so I am very detail oriented, which is not typical. I am detail-oriented, but my energy, I think, is more kind of being about connecting to people, and it's also when you're working for yourself. I do miss the energy of people.

Mary: 47:39

You know being with a team of therapists or you know, a team with a shared mission of helping young people. I really, really miss that. So I think that's what I've been feeling like I need to sort of move more back toward something where I can connect with people and create impact like that, instead of just sort of sitting by myself each day and trying to figure out, like what is the next step.

Dr. Sue: 48:05

That's beautiful. I love that and and I would say like a lot of times you know you can see your personality through your career path. Like to me, a therapist is like a giver mama, until she's proven otherwise, because you spend your life listening to people, right, and like you're just yeah, so I think that's awesome, awesome. I and I think like how you can use this quiz is like you see your gifts and then you kind of see your challenges and what I'm hearing like it's life is feels. I mean like you could bring more fun in. The fun factor for you seems to be more about connection, like getting that connection that you experienced as a therapist with the people and and also, you know, probably colleagues as well, as what I hear. Yeah, so that's beautiful. That's like a beautiful way to use the quiz. It's so many ways you could use the quiz. You can reflect on it just in your personal life, your professional life. Yeah, it's beautiful.

Mary: 49:07

Well, it's also a beautiful quiz to take the picture, so I encourage everybody.

Dr. Sue: 49:11

You know we'll.

Mary: 49:11

I'll put a link in the show notes to your website, because I also love that as soon as you go to your website, it's there and it pulls you in and do this because it's a great starting place.

Mary: 49:20

So, in general, if somebody's thinking, okay, how do I bring more of this into your life? Obviously you're a starting point. Right, you mentioned you have your coaching, you have your at least quiz to give a starting point. But there are there. Could you give like maybe three things just in life that you could start to because I know you talked about noticing numbers, or are there any ways that people can, or women can, start to maybe? I see it as kind of loosening up and starting to tune into something that would make some shifts for them.

Dr. Sue: 49:54

Okay, I'm listening, mary, because I know like, wow, that sounds like something the high priestess may say. I feel you like connecting with something that's beyond yourself, right, and maybe it's just the overarching theme of what we've talked about already. Like, what about just following the breadcrumbs? Like, if you want to take that art class, go take the art class. Like, don't have to justify of like, what is this leading to nothing? You don't know. You could be sitting down next to your next best friend at the art class.

Dr. Sue: 50:25

You could shift your perspective in the art class on something totally unrelated to art, because when you're in art, it's like connecting to your subconscious, right. So I feel like just following the breadcrumbs, following what feels fun, following what lights you up, like the garden for you, mary, is always a place I feel of like cultivating your soul is just being in the garden. Your soul is just being in the garden, you know. So, yeah, does that make sense? Like I think that's really like what leads us to really get a shift outside of ourselves is to keep following the breadcrumbs. You know, like I followed, I just picked up the tarot. I was like I don't know, I don't get it, I don't understand yet, but I do know that this is lighting up my soul, so I'm going to figure, just take it, figure it out and take the next thing right. That's kind of how I look at it.

Mary: 51:20

And don't just say no when you don't understand it. Let it be an option, because I think we sometimes think we often need a reason, like I'm doing this because you don't, and I recently heard this idea. The same friend that talked about second spring started to use this word liminal space. And it's this space where we don't yet know we're just kind of figuring it out and we don't know the destination.

Mary: 51:48

And I think that's so cool because we feel like we have to run through that space. It's like this empty space and it's like sometimes you can exist there. It's kind of what you talked about with the couple it's when you don't know what's going to happen. It's really. It can be very unnerving because we like to know what's happening.

Mary: 52:09

But I think that sense of adventure or exploration, or just kind of let it be an option and you don't have to decide, just like you're saying, go with the next thing, you know, follow the next crumb and be like, oh, this might be cool and maybe it won't end up being anything, but it's gonna take me then to the next thing. So I think that's a great place to start. I think if somebody really wants to start to expand the ways we've been talking about, yeah, don't make it wrong.

Dr. Sue: 52:40

You bring another client to mind for me and she is in her 40s. She is single, she's kind of between career, she's just not quite landing it. You know, like she feels so off, like she's behind. Why doesn't she have a family? Why does she have kids? Like, why doesn't she know what they she's supposed to be doing? Yet, right, like how could I have gotten this far in life? And still I'm like, yeah, and I feel like that's exactly where she is.

Dr. Sue: 53:11

She just gets to hang out in the unknown and the uncertainty and keep following the little breadcrumbs which for her. She loves animals, right, so she's of service and dog sits and sits and goes, hangs out at the barn and volunteers at the barn and rides horses. Just keep following the little things. And yeah, don't make it wrong, keep following the little things. And yeah, don't make it wrong, because that's just like Tony Robbins also has this saying stop shitting all over yourself and shitting over everybody else. Like, stop the shoulds. Right, like I should be doing this, I should be doing that and they should be doing this. Well, who are you? How do you know?

Mary: 53:48

You're so not gonna be surprised about this. I do many episodes. The one that dropped today is called Stop Shooting All Over Yourself. I am not kidding you. So talk about vibrations connecting. That's just amazing. And you're right, we have this idea of what we should be doing and all it does is stress us out. So, yeah, so that's my. That was my little under five minute mini episode from today. Okay so circle. Yeah, so can you tell us, and I'll put this again, I'll put in the show notes Can you tell us?

Dr. Sue: 54:21

where to find you. Yes, so the easiest way to find me is on my website, drsuemccreadie. com.

Mary: 54:27

Okay, sounds good, and there's the quiz on there and they can find out from that. It sort of leads them into sort of some options to work with you, right.

Dr. Sue: 54:37

Yes, yes, exactly Exactly. Take the quiz, it's fun. It's true, it is fun, yeah.

Mary: 54:43

Take the quiz. It's not a big long thing, it's just very fun and it's I think it's a great starting point to explore. So beautiful.

Dr. Sue: 54:50

Thank you so much, Mary.

Mary: 54:51

Thank you for being here. This has been a great conversation and I just like I'm going to go through my whole day now feeling just like like I'm taking up even more of my space. Put your, put your crown on, I'm gonna dig it out of the closet, and I want to thank everyone for listening. Please forward this episode to someone that you know would love listening and, until next time, go out into the world and be the amazing, resilient, vibrant Violet that you are. Thank you.