From Shame To Strategy: Rethinking How Women Relate To Money

Money can feel like a second language—especially when the words you learned were “Don’t talk about it” or “We can’t afford that.” We sit down with nationally recognized wealth advisor and Everyone’s Talkin' Money podcast host Shari Rash to decode the different ways men and women talk about money, why that mismatch fuels shame, and how to build a plan that fits your actual life. From first money memories to the phrases we use with our kids, we trace how language shapes confidence, choices, and long-term wealth.

Shari breaks down an empowering translation: performance metrics for those who love numbers and life outcomes for those who value purpose. You’ll hear how to stop deferring the spreadsheet to a partner without turning finances into a fight, how to find every account you have and what each bucket is for, and why automating “wishes” like savings and debt payoff beats waiting for leftovers. We also challenge the latte myth, explore the “cage animal effect” of deprivation, and show how to align spending with core values so your statements read like a story you’re proud of.

Expect practical tools that are simple and human: identify your first money memory, audit three months of transactions for themes, swap “We can’t afford it” for “We’re choosing not to spend on that,” and use the Big Three—needs, wants, wishes—to keep progress steady without perfection. We even share kid-friendly strategies that build autonomy and healthy financial identities early on. If you’ve ever felt “bad at money,” you might just be fluent in a different money language. Let’s make your money serve the life you want.

If this conversation helped you rethink your approach to money, follow the show, share it with a friend, and leave a quick review—what’s one belief about money you’re ready to rewrite?

You can find Shari and her podcast at https://www.everyonestalkinmoneypodcast.com/

Chapters

• 0:00 Men vs. Women: Money Mindsets
• 1:12 Show Welcome And Mission
• 1:58 Mary’s Family Money Story
• 3:24 Introducing Guest Shannah “Sherry” Rash
• 4:55 First Money Memories Shape Beliefs
• 7:00 Why Women Feel Money Shame
• 9:35 Translating Performance Into Life Outcomes
• 12:03 Finding And Owning Your Money Language
• 14:06 Kids, Autonomy, And Money Lessons
• 17:08 Ditching Deprivation And Latte Guilt
• 19:25 Spend To Values: Needs, Wants, Wishes
• 21:00 New Year Money Reset: Practical Steps
• 23:00 Where To Learn More And Mary’s Book

Transcript

Shari: 0:00

Men and women speak differently about money. They think about money differently. They speak differently. So men think about money as far as performance goes. So I picked this stock, it returned X percent. I'm an investing genius. Like I know everything and I'm great. That's how men think about money. They also think about accumulating it, piling it up, getting, you know, get the amounts getting bigger and bigger. Women don't care about that. Women care about what can my money do for me? What is it going to help me accomplish?

Mary: 0:37

Welcome to No Shrinking Violets. I'm your host, Mary Rothwell, licensed therapist and certified integrative mental health practitioner. I've created a space where we celebrate the intuition and power of women who want to break free from limiting narratives. We'll explore all realms of wellness, what it means to take up space unapologetically, and how your essential nature is key to living life on your terms. It's time to own your space, trust your nature, and flourish. Let's dive in. Hey Violets, welcome to the show. So many of our narratives are informed by the way our families, namely our parents, navigated life situations. I think we often have underlying beliefs that spring from what we observed when we were young and how we interpreted it with our immature minds. My dad earned the sole income for most of my life. There were five kids in my family, and with a modest government income, he was able to save enough to put all of us through college and pay off the house he built before I graduated from college. My dad 100% managed the money and paid the bills. I never heard my parents have a conversation about money. We never had extra, but I don't remember ever feeling a lack of anything, except the stuff I realized later didn't matter, like the designer jeans and the cool shoes. We had a nice middle-class home and food on the table. And while we knew not to ask for extra money, and I never got an allowance, and we didn't take vacations or eat out, my dad contributed to a Christmas savings account for us when I was a kid. He would put a few dollars into an account each week so that a few weeks before Christmas, he could give us money to buy gifts for others in the family and for our friends. I'm guessing that that's where my money philosophy comes from. I often feel guilt for buying something for myself, especially if it's not on sale, but buying gifts for people I love at the holidays is a non-negotiable. If you've heard me talk at all about money, you know I don't love financial planning. And for most of my life, a life during which I was my own financial support, I didn't do much planning. I just took the stance that I'd figure it out when I got there. Of course, I did have the extreme luxury of knowing I would have a public school retirement, which is an annuity that would pay out for the rest of my life. But beyond that, I didn't think strategically about money at all. And now I know that part of that might have been informed by my gender. Women don't tend to talk about money with each other in the same way that men do. Men share financial tips, women share recipes and children strategies and where we got our sweater on sale. Of course, I'm broadly stereotyping, but you know what I mean. Women share to connect, men often share to exchange information. I'm not sure how much of that would bear out based on research, but I do know that my guest today, who is a wealth advisor, has some insight into the role that being female plays in our philosophy of money, wealth, and abundance. Sherry Rash is a nationally recognized wealth advisor, speaker, and the host of Everyone's Talk and Money, an award-winning New York Times top four personal finance podcast with over 25 million downloads. She's also the founder of GWA Wealth, a virtual advisory firm that helps women create money strategies that match their goals and their lives without shame, spreadsheets that make your eyes bleed, or financial advice that's stuck in the 1950s. And I want to say she's also a mom of four, a big believer that your money should work as hard as you do. And she's known for her straight talking hype girl approach to personal finance. Welcome to No Shrinking Violet, Sherry. Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Shari: 4:14

I love that introduction and that story about your father. And then also, you know, how you admit, like I just pushed things off. I didn't deal with it. It's it's so real. Yeah.

Mary: 4:26

And you know, it's we talked a little before I hit record. It's kind of like you don't know what you don't know till somebody points it out to you. So that's why I love having these conversations because I'm guessing there are a lot of women that money is just something that is sort of in the background and there's a lot of feelings about, but we don't even realize we have them till we can talk about it. So what I would like to start with is having you share your journey. So, what got you interested in money management and what experiences do you think fed into that?

Shari: 4:59

Yes. So when I talk with anyone on podcasts or when I'm when I'm speaking and to clients, I'll ask them like, what was your first money memory? Or it sometimes I don't even have to ask it. Sometimes just through our conversations, they'll just offer it. Like, well, when I grew up, this is what I heard and this is what I experienced, and all of that. So the same way you shared your story about your your father and the Christmas savings accounts, that may be your first money memory. It doesn't necessarily mean it happened when you were the youngest and the youngest thing you can remember, but it's the first thing that came to mind. And often our first money memory is what shapes our relationship with money. And you, you, you just you buried the leap for me. Like you just said it. You're like, I think that's why I feel the way I do it, why I am the way I am with money. And like, yeah, you're you're probably correct. Um, and so, but some and and that was like a positive experience. Gen, you know, that it sounded like where your father said it put away money and you you you used it for other people. And so that was positive. Um, but some people aren't as lucky, most people aren't as lucky that they their experience is negative. They heard their parents fighting, or they, you know, my my mom said, We can't afford that. And like it and so that's what shaped shapes your relationship with money, but you don't realize, like you said, you don't realize you have a negative relationship with money until the mirror is held up and you or you talk to someone who does have a positive relationship. So my first money memory, it was when I was 14, and obviously I had memories before that, but this is the one that shaped my life. Was when I was 14 and my dad said to me, Um, you have to get a job. Like you like to buy stuff, and like that's fine, but you have to get a job. And right there, that's important because he wasn't shaming me for buying stuff. It was just fact of the matter. You like to buy stuff, I'm no longer gonna pay for all of it. You need to pay for it. So it was just very matter of fact where we can already see how we put our own drama into a statement like that. I spend too much money, I shop, I'm irresponsible, I'm this, I'm that. Like we don't need to, we don't need to do that. So, long story short, I went around and I was trying to find I lived in a uh beach resort town and I got a job at a breakfast restaurant and I made toast. That was my job. I was a toast girl, I made toast and waffles, and I took that job very seriously. And, you know, white wheat rye made the Belgian waffles, all of that. And after my first shift, the servers tipped me out the same way they tipped out a busser. So that you know, 10% of their tips they get, and I was not expecting that because I was already getting an hourly wage. So I got all this money, like this cash just handed to me. So it's like I worked really hard and then like got cash, like immediate gratification. So that's like also another issue that I carry throughout my life, but immediate gratification, I got this money, and then I went the next day, same thing happened. Then the next weekend, same thing. And it was like I was making all this money and I couldn't spend it fast enough. So it was just accumulating all of this cash. So then what I would do, I would play with my money. Like I would take all my money out, I'd keep it in a dresser drawer, take all my money out, put it in piles. All right, well, this is gonna be, this is gonna go to my bank account. This is gonna, I'm gonna spend this, this is gonna be for when I'm in college. Like, and like I had all this purpose for the money. And that's really what shaped my positive relationship with money and my philosophy that I carry with my clients today.

Mary: 8:53

Yeah. And as we're talking about it, I'm thinking about my dad, and he you he wouldn't really talk about money except to say, like he his one thing would be, you know, money doesn't grow on trees, or you think I'm made of money, but he never said it in an angry way. And even when I went to graduate school, he paid for that, but he kept track of everything and I had to pay him back. So I think built into the way he was were the lessons, but there were never broad lessons about here's how you budget. You know, and interestingly later in life, my mom at one point said, I don't have enough money to have a budget. And that became sort of the family joke. So one of the things that I think is really interesting is in the intro that I read for you, you talk about women planning without having shame. And I don't know any men who feel shame about money. And so, what do you think it is about women that we have to navigate a feeling like shame?

Shari: 9:55

Okay, so there's a lot. I'm gonna go in a couple of different directions here, but that's such a great question. Um, first, men and women speak differently about money. They they think about money differently, they speak differently. So men think about money as far as performance goes. So um I picked this stock, it returned X percent. I'm an investing genius, like I know everything, and I'm great. That's how men think about money. Um, they also think about accumulating it, piling it up, getting, you know, get the the amounts getting bigger and bigger. Women don't care about that. Women care about what can my money do for me? What is it going to help me accomplish? So when I'm working with my clients and like I work with mostly female clients, but I do have couples as well, husband and wife couples, and um I have to speak two different languages to them. So I will say this account returned 17% this year, that appeals to the male brain, which means you are on track to retire in three years. That appeals to the female brain. If I would have just done one half of that sentence, whether the first half or the second half, 50% of the people I was speaking to would have left unfulfilled because they would have not understood or they would have not gotten what they needed from me in that in that statement. And um, so that's super important. So women, one, we're we're taught, you know, and and it's becoming less, but we still have a lot of work to undo it. Don't talk about money, it's not lady-like talking about money's taboo. Um, so we're we're fighting that. Um and no one says talking about money is not manlike, it's it's only not ladylike, it's not nice to talk about money, right? So we're we're dealing with that. Um, we're also dealing with the fact that women only had have the same rights as men, like for the past 50 years when it comes to money. Like, and we forget about that. I forget about that all the time. So, like, that's a whole issue unto itself. So the fact that we don't speak the same language, we're told it's not ladylike, then you know, because men and women think about money differently, we then will leave money conversations with men thinking we're less than. So, like if you could imagine, like anytime you heard like in to your audience, like anytime you heard like your father or like his buddy or neighbor, a brother, an uncle, I don't know, anyone talking about money and say you were just listening in, you had no idea what they were talking about. Like, oh yeah, I picked this stock or I did this and like talking like numbers and and you know, all like you know, peacock chests puffing out, like all this. And you're like listening in that conversation or leaving it going, I have no idea what they just said. But you right away go, that's a me problem. And it's not a you problem. You don't we speak English, you don't we don't listen in on someone speaking French and going, I'm an idiot because I don't understand it. No, they're just speaking a different language that I don't know. Yep, it's the same thing when it comes to money, but we just attach the shame and our identity and our net worth equals our self-worth to money for whatever reason. Um, so that's what I'm helping to undo. So that's why there's the shame is that and most people in financial services are male. So if a female's looking to seek seeking advice, there's like a 75, 80% chance she's gonna get that advice from a male. And again, they speak a different language. So it's not going to click. And and that's like, so it's like all of those reasons are why there's this shame and this I'm less than, I don't get it, I'm never gonna get it. Junk that we have building up inside of us.

Mary: 14:01

Wow. So okay, so I'm gonna try to rewind for a second to the one of the first things you said, which I love how you said that. So men think about money. It how did you say that? It was like women think about what it can do for us, right? Which is so true. And I never thought about it that way because I'm not thinking strategically. I'm thinking, oh, you know, and I it's right now as we're recording, it's holiday time. This will probably air in January. But I'm thinking, as I talked about in the intro, you know, I buy gifts all year for Christmas for people. I see something to me, that is a connecting thing. So how and I often say to my husband, and he rolls his eyes when he talks about wanting to buy something, he he'll tell me, buy whatever you want. He's more strategic because when he sees something, he he thinks about, oh, I could just put this into a retirement account. But I'll say to him, How long did you have to work to buy that? And he's like, I'm like, look, you probably worked this number of hours to buy that thing, buy it. So we're we think in really different terms. And I love how you you frame that for women because to me that's beautiful. Because I, to me, that that is a commodity. That what am I gonna, what can I do with it? Not what is it kind of gonna do for me? Do for me.

Shari: 15:18

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's it's it men are just more, they want to accumulate bigger, bigger, more, more numbers, re performance returns, just it's not hoarding, but it can get to hoarding very quick, very easily, money hoarding. Yeah, that's the way men think.

Mary: 15:36

Yeah, wow. Okay, so if people are listening to this, and I'm guessing they're listening, and a few light bulbs are going off, like they did for me. So, how do people start to identify? What are the I talk about limiting beliefs a lot? So, how would women start to identify what they are and then sort of start to overcome those beliefs?

Shari: 15:58

Yeah. So again, starting off with like, what is your first money memory? That's gonna be your biggest indicator of your relationship with money and one if it's positive or negative. So again, if it's like, well, I heard my parents arguing, or I was told we can't afford this, or I felt less than because I didn't have the designer genes that everyone else had at school. Um, that's gonna give you the first indication of where you you go. And then it's just, you know, when I say the word money, what comes to mind? Like what words do you think of? Is it stress? Is it freedom? Is it um goals? Is it accomplishing things? Is it, you know, I don't get it, like whatever it is, like you need to become aware of it. So like awareness is the first step of it. Then you all need to um see how that's been impacting your life. Like, do you know what you have? And not necessarily even like dollar amounts, but like, do you even know the accounts that you have? And and you know, if I've heard it once, I've heard it 10,000 times. Oh, my husband keeps track of everything. He has a spreadsheet. Like, okay, do you have access to that spreadsheet? Like, where is that spreadsheet? If God forbid, if your husband were to pass away very suddenly, are you screwed? Like, do you even not only do you not know how to manage the money, but do you even know where it is? So ask to see the spreadsheet. Oh, well, he's gonna think I don't trust him. Like again, so it's like no, like that doesn't mean I don't trust you. It just means I want to make myself better. Like, I I want to get better. Me wanting to see the spreadsheet is no indication of you, honey, and the great job you're doing. I want to get better. I want to understand some of this. And understanding money doesn't mean that like we're waking up and we're watching CNBC to see what the futures are doing. Like that, that's that's crazy. Like, that's not real. And like we always go to that extreme. People always go to that extreme of like, well, if I understand money, I need to understand all of it. It's like, no, just know where it is. No, you know, is it retirement money? Is it non-retirement money? Like, what what is it? Um, that's kind of the stuff to to first get your hands wrapped around. And then you can learn a little bit more. And like, yeah, stock picking, like that's not going to be anyone, like that's most not most people's things, right? And that's fine. You don't have to be an expert in that, but having some awareness and participating some way in the finances. Like, if you don't handle any of it, just like ask for like your your husband for like a tutorial, like, hey, what do we have? Let me see. Like, why did you pick that? What we did, like, you know, just just ask some questions. But I think also like seeing how you talk about money in your everyday life, if like, no, I can't afford that is something you say a lot, or no, we can't afford that. That's a negative, that's a negative. Just say I'm we're gonna choose not to spend our money on that right now. Okay. That because by saying no, we can't afford that, you're kind of saying that same thing. No, we're not spending our money on that because we have to spend our money on other things. So it's the same thing, but just shifting it, shifting the positive, like especially um if you have children, like being very aware of the words that you say with money, like, no, we can't afford that. Your father said, What do you think? I'm made of money, or money doesn't grow on trees. That's a funnier way of saying, I can't pay, like, we're I can't use my money on that right now. But it doesn't make anyone feel bad, you know, and no one feels bad from that. What do you think? Money grows on trees, like it's a joke. And no, of course not. Like, but like kids don't understand that. So instead of Shaming them of like, how dare you ask me? Like, you know, for my kids are always asking me how for like the $50 water bottles. Like, how dare you ask me for a $50 water? What is it? Made of money. Like, or saying to your child, you really want the $50 water bottle. Let's use your money for it. Let's look at your piggy bank. Let's see how much you have. And my 11-year-old, who is my spender, she'll be like, I don't want to spend my money on that. Then you must not really want it that much. If you're quick to spend my money, but not quick to spend yours, then it's not really something like you really want. It was just like a nice to have. And then I never hear about the water bottle again. So I and I know I just threw a lot at you there, but it's so easy how we don't even realize how like the shame and the junk and the negative creeps into our lives and becomes just normal.

Mary: 20:50

Yeah. Yeah. So there's two big threads I want to pull out of that. The first is that idea of women deferring to their partner, their male partner, and we'll just talk about a male partner, deferring to them. And so I think what's interesting in my situation, I just got married for the second time about three years ago. And my husband now is a planner. But before that, I really was the one that supported myself. So then when it became, you know, the first time I was with somebody that made more money than me. And that was also weird for me, but that's a whole other episode. And so I think it got to the point where I said, I don't know where any of the money. First of all, it was hard for me to say our money because I never thought that way. But he was very much like, it's our money. You know, I said, well, okay. So, but I don't know where it is. I don't understand like the planning. So a couple things happen from that because he was very open and receptive. And the first thing was he does have a spreadsheet, of course, because he's the king of spreadsheets, which I don't need to see it, but I know where it is. So we have this funny thing. I call it the death clause. So it's kind of a just a funny way of saying if something happens to you, I need to know where stuff is. So the other time is when we travel and we always get two hotel keys because I'm like, what if one of us gets hit by a car? We need to. So it's we just kind of make it funny, but we you do need to understand what is going to happen if something happens to your partner. Because I saw what happened with my mom when my dad died first. We had to figure all of it out. So I think that is really important. I also go along to all the financial planning sessions. And I think what's really cool, and I didn't realize this till you framed it, but the person that we work with works a lot with teachers, and a lot of teachers are female. So he already does the things you're talking about. He talks about different buckets and the way that he frames it. What I know from hearing you talk is he says one thing that my husband gets and feels good about, and then he says the second thing, which is more about the end goal, where I'm like, oh, okay, like that's what this means. And I never realized it. And I love that. And I wonder if it's because he was trained by a woman, and he also works with a lot of women. So that's the one thing which I love. Know what's happening, don't feel bad about asking about it. And then you talk about words, which is I use in my work all the time that the words we use like shame or I'm an idiot or I'm stupid, you're telling yourself stuff you'd never tell your friend, your daughter. So I also love when we talk about money, there's a lot of things that we can um other different words we can use. So money is one word. There's also wealth, there's also abundance. So do is that something that you kind of incorporate? And what's your thought about the way we actually use the words around what money means for us?

Shari: 24:03

Yeah, so um wealth and abundance, all of that is funny because it's so subjective. I have had this not argument, but this discussion with my kids. Um, I've my two older girls are 14 and 11. And I'm hearing a lot recently, rich. Oh, they're rich. And um, and and that means something different to everyone, just like wealth means something different, abundance means something different to everyone. And some, and it's hard to not put your own feelings of like wealth and rich and all when if I was speaking to my clients. What I try to do is I'm a new, I say like I'm a neutral third party. And like the way you feel is not wrong and it's not right. It just is, like it just is. So we often say, well, like, well, I think this about money and I'm wrong. Like, I know that's wrong. Like, no, it just is. It's just data. Like, so I'm I'm like, I kind of absorb the emotion and I like spit out like the non-emotion, like data, or I take the data and then I can I take the data, like I will look at like bank statements and transactions. I'll take the data and then bring it to the bring make you emotional about it or try to pull some emotions out of it, um, with like spending, especially. So it's it's the those words all mean something different to someone else. And I think like use what works for you. Money to me is neutral. It's not good or bad. I help my clients not attach emotion to it because it just is where someone that may feel rich, right? Or someone that's rich, like rich could be um, um, you know, and what I explained to my kids, like someone could have the biggest house in the world, you know, but they may not have any furniture in it. So from the outside, they look rich. But if you go inside their house, not so much. So I'll I'll remind my kids of like, don't look at that surface stuff and and determine, um, or or slap even slap a label on on anything, like because you never know the whole story. Um, so I think that that's important. And and someone may say, well, I'm rich because I can pick my kids up from school every day, right? I I work and then I make enough money that I then have the flexibility to do that. And that's rich to me.

Mary: 26:45

Yeah.

Shari: 26:46

So I would say, like, when you like find words that work for you and like fit your definition, and then that's what you mold your money philosophy around.

Mary: 26:55

Yeah. And I think the idea with the children is really, it's really important to do kind of what you're talking about. Like, if they want something, they need to understand what that's worth. And so the reason that I'm sort of laughing about that is I've worked with young people my whole career. So I started with high school. And what I saw happening as we generally, I think, became more affluent and sort of like were able to prioritize other things. Then parents parented by giving their kids the stuff they couldn't have. And I see this happen a lot with my friends too. Like they want the kid, it'll want something, they'll buy it. And then later, when it's time to get a job, it's they start to realize, oh my gosh, like I can't buy the things. And so that's not preparing your child. And so I think for them to work for something or to understand what does that cost mom or dad to buy for me. If things are too easy, then you know, they just think, oh, I just get what I want. Like it's easy. Like, look how, or it's really easy to be able to buy these things. I'm gonna be able to do that for my kids. It's like, well, no, not if you don't learn how to do that. And I think the other part of that is they are seeing so much now in the world of social media. So they're seeing, quote, rich people, they're seeing, quote, this excess and they want all the things. And it seems like everything is easy. So I do think that just giving your kids something because they want it isn't really truly teaching them how to be able to do that for themselves in the future. So I really love that you brought that up.

Shari: 28:47

Thank you. Yeah, that I mean, we again we could have a whole nother episode about that, but kids want this was like a lesson I learned very quickly um as a young mom. Um, my oldest daughter earned like got some money, earned some money, got some money for her birthday. I can't exactly remember what it was. And she wanted to go buy a toy. Like, great, that that's what what this is for. So we're at Target and I like have my we're checking out and I have all of my stuff, and then she has her toy, and like she has her toy and she's holding it and she has her money. And she's like sitting there, like waiting. And I still like I remember it so vividly. I remember I wonder if she does. I'll have to ask her. But I and I just I'm ringing up all of my stuff and I say, here, Olivia, let me put your it was a cash register of all things. I'm like, let me put your cash register in, and then you give me the money for your cash, like, and it's like I'm I'm being efficient here. Like I'm trying, like there's people behind me, I'm being efficient. And she was so upset by it. And she was upset because she wanted to hand the cashier her money and buy it herself.

Mary: 30:05

Yeah.

Shari: 30:06

And like that moment stuck with me because they want to have the autonomy, like they want to make these decisions. And we're but we think we're helping our kids by like buying them stuff and giving and never having to work or want or all of this, but like, no, like they give empower them, like empower them. Give if you give them the money, then give them the power to make the decision what to do with it, or coach them, like, hey, you just got all this money for your report card. Great job. You worked hard for it. Let's save a little bit. So, like, you want to do this thing in the summer, let's save a little bit. And like, then you can spend it and give them, and you can start this super young, but give them the the the power and and to make their own financial decisions now, while they can't really screw things up, while they can't make mistakes, but it's gonna give them that confidence and create that positive relationship with money.

Mary: 31:05

Yeah. And that makes me think back again to the Christmas club, which was a hundred dollars, which at that time was a lot of money. I didn't really know it then. I don't know. I mean, I'm sure my dad put like five dollars a week in there, but again, that was a lot with five kids. And so I had that money and I had to make a list of who I was gonna buy for and actually budget, which now I loved that. I loved when I was doing it that way because it was about giving, but it was also that strategy of like, how can how far can I stretch this? So yeah, it's so funny as we're talking, like these different things come up. I'm like, oh yeah, like I remember how that felt to give gifts to somebody that I didn't earn the money, but I had to budget the money. And so, yeah, that's a great memory. So here's another thing that I hear people do. Um, I'll I'll see what they spend money on, and then they'll go through these phases where we'll be out to lunch and they'll be like, well, I can't, I don't, I'm not gonna buy a drink because I can't afford it right now. We you talked about not being able to afford it. So I think this idea of when I feel money stress or I've overspent, I'm gonna tighten the purse strings and I'm not gonna buy that $5 latte or not. Talk about how that is that helpful, or what do you think about that strategy?

Shari: 32:23

No, that's what I call the um cage annibal effect. So that, so yeah. So I I I've spent too much money, I need to tighten up, or I'm gonna take take away my latte, or I'm not gonna have a drink at dinner, whatever it is. That works for like three weeks, and you can save some money and yeah, you can maybe see it, feel it, but you don't feel good when it while you're doing it. And you really don't feel good after the fact because it's like, yeah, I made back what I overspent or whatever, I saved a couple extra bucks, but I feel terrible. Like I didn't have fun, I wasn't able to do the things I enjoy. And then what happens, and it's you know, when I when I I have a mini golden doodle, when you put him in the cage, he's a good boy in the cage, but then as soon as I open the cage, he then has the zoomies and runs around my house. That's the same exact thing when we're too restrictive with our money. We're gonna be a good boy, good girl for a little bit, but then we're gonna get the zoomies and then we're gonna make up for lost time and buy everything or do everything that we didn't do in that period of time, probably plus some. So we're not gonna be any better off. So instead of that, you can because also like I do not subscribe to the stop buying your five dollar lattes because like that might be the best part of your day. So who am I to take away the best part of your day? That may be where you go in, you say hi to the barista, you might see your neighbor in there, you chit-chat a little bit, go out, walk away, walk out, and that's it. Or that might be like I'm the type my brain, like in order for me to like to do a task I really don't want to do, I need to like make it fun while I'm doing it, which could be having a special drink, lighting a candle, whatever. Um, so like now, like if I you take away my coffee, now I'm doing a task that I don't hate, that I don't like on top in in an environment that I'm not happy at. So I'm like, it's like adding insult to injury. So instead, it's how can you make slight shifts? Is this a need or is this a one? Like, okay, well, I'm not, I I I I'm I'm gonna buy my drink at dinner tonight when I go out with my girlfriends, but I might not buy lunch tomorrow or at work. Like I might pack my lunch, right? Because I have enough food in my fridge to pack my lunch. Um, I don't like love the fat fast food anyway. So I'm gonna make that choice. So making things conscious, instead of just spending unconsciously, making every decision a strategic decision. Um, that's where. So does your spending, and this comes into the bigger conversation of does your spending match your values? So if I were to look at your transactions, if I were to pull your credit card transactions, I should be able to identify what you value. If it's, you know, health, then like your chiropractor visits, your supplements that you buy, your gym membership, all of that stuff. Like I should be, there should be a theme to it. If you value experiences, like there should be a theme to your spending. Like I should be able to see it. But that's one of the issues that I come across with my clients is that they feel like they have no money, but they they have no money, they know they have no money at the end of the day, but like they feel very unfulfilled. It's like, well, okay, well, what do you want to spend your money on? And they tell me, and I'm like, well, this doesn't match up. You're telling me like to travel and like you're spending your money at Target, like that, those don't go together. So then once you say, like, does this thing that I'm gonna spend my money on match my values? If it doesn't, it's a lot easier to say no and you really don't feel like you're missing something. But like again, if your latte is your best part of your day and you're taking away for taking that away from you, you're not, you're not, you're just punishing yourself.

Mary: 36:26

Yeah, it's like a diet, it's like a food diet. You know, I think when we feel like, oh, I overate, so I'm going to restrict, and then you're just miserable. And then when you have an emotional thing, you're like, I'm just gonna eat a pint of ice cream. And that yo-yoing, we do that with money. And I think that also brings in the emotion. There's a lot of emotion that we don't think about. It's kind of like that dopamine hit when we buy something, and you can have something. I've bought things that I forgot I bought. And at the moment, I'm like, I have to buy it. And then later I'm like, oh, I see it in my closet. I'm like, oh my gosh, I bought this two months ago. I forgot about this sweater or whatever it is. And I think there's another thing that can be a whole other episode, the emotion and the brain chemistry that goes along with spending and getting stuff. So thinking ahead, like you said, like if you're really trying to eat intentionally and you know you're going out to dinner, you might eat something less for lunch. And so I love kind of applying that to money because it's sort of taking that long-term approach instead of, oh, I did too much. Now I'm gonna suffer. I gotta suffer. And I think that's built into it too. You know, that shame of now I'm gonna make myself suffer because I went over my budget. So that part of it too, we can't discount because I think it's it has a lot of power.

Shari: 37:52

It does. There's a lot of similarities between money and like and eating and dieting and all of that. Like I'm an emotional spender. Like I know that about myself. The problem is it's like any type, it's not like a certain type of emotion, it's any emotion. If I'm bored, if I'm happy, if I'm sad, like if I feel any certain way, like I'm spending money. Like, so I have to recognize it. Like, am I buying this? Or am I because I'm feeling a certain way, or is it because I really need it and not quote unquote, oh, I need this. Like, do I really need it?

Mary: 38:26

Right. Yeah. Okay. So one of the things you talk about is the big three instead of small expenses. Can you tell a little bit about what are the big three and how people should approach that?

Shari: 38:37

Yeah. So I just alluded to it right there. Um, so the big three, so instead of like budgeting and like, oh, I spend this much on gas and groceries and my car and my insurance and all of that, and having a, you know, a big list of all our expenses that are down to the penny. Um, again, that only works like for a couple of weeks. And in general, budgeting in general only works for like 30% of the population. So if you've tried a budget and failed, you're not alone. You're of the majority. So instead, I the my big three are a need, a want, or a wish. So a need is clearly a need, but where traditional budgeting has failed us is that we're taught we only need housing, utilities, groceries, and that's pretty much it. Um, that's not true. Like we need a lot of other things. Like we, I in my house need Netflix. Like, if we didn't have Netflix, it would be terrible for all parties involved. So that's a need. And and that's okay. And there's nothing wrong with that. Like, I don't need to like I've had clients go, okay, this is embarrassing, but like I really need this. And it's like, okay, take out the this is embarrassing. I really need this. Great. I'll put it in the number. Like again, rem like just get rid of all that extra junk. Like, let's just remove the emotion. Let's just look at the facts here. So your needs are everything that you need. And again, I need to get my hair done. I need Netflix. Those are needs. It's happening. I'm spending my money on it. A want is something that makes life better, but we could do without it. So like if Netflix is a need, Hulu's a want. We don't need it. We could, I could cancel it. It's not the biggest deal in the world, but we still have it. Okay. And then a wish is um, and and and you can Google this. It's the 50, 30, 20 method. Um, wish is the what I came up with. That's my my little spin on it. And it's anything that increases your net worth. So our net worth is what we own minus what we owe. So paying down a debt is a wish that increases our net worth. Um, saving, saving for a vacation, saving for kids' college, saving for retirement, that's a wish. It increases our net worth because we're saving. So those are the big three. Is and that's where your dollars should go. You're either spending it on a need, you're spending it on a want, or you're it's a wish and you're it's increasing your net worth in one way or another.

Mary: 41:23

Wow. The wish is not how I thought you were going to define it. I love that. I never would have thought that way. I thought a wish is sort of like the reach, like, oh, I would love to go to Costa Rica, or you know, something like that. It's it's more an intentional building your financial wealth or worth, right? Oh, I love that. That's great. Okay, so I know as a therapist that when I hit my clients with a lot of good information, by the end of the session, I can see the deer in the headlights look starting. So I feel like you've given so much wonderful information. And my hope is always people will go back and re-listen as you know their brain expands. But this will this will air in January when the time when we often decide, okay, I'm going to do these things. These are my resolutions or whatever. So can you distill this down? If somebody is thinking, okay, I'm ready. I'm starting to feel this shift, what is one or two things they can start with implementing to make it to kind of like distill it down and make it a little easier?

Shari: 42:33

So I would say if you if if you're, you know, gonna do the whole money New Year's resolution thing, I would say the best exercise is to understand where your money's going. So looking at the past three months of your expenses and see if you can come up with a theme of where your money's going. Now, obviously it's gonna be hard because it's the holidays. If we're doing this in January, we're looking at December, November, October. There's always an excuse. There's always an expensive time of year, there's always a vacation. Like my clients will say, Well, I went on vacation this month, that I don't care. Something always happened. So it doesn't matter, right? So look at where your money go is going and is there a theme to it? And where do you want your money to go? Like if you could wave a magic wand and say, This is what I want us to spend my money on, um, what steps can you take to spend put to to do that? Um, so it's not necessarily spend less, it's spend with intention. Um, or and then also I would say when it comes to where your money goes, do you have your a wit? Like, do you have your wishes filled up? Like, are you allocating a portion to increasing your net worth? Because the problem we will make the the problem is that we will say money comes in, I'll then spend it on my bills and whatever, and I'll save what's left over. The problem is there's never anything left over, or there's never the amount we expected left to be left over. So flip it. So money comes in, save the amount you want to save, be realistic, of course. Save the amount you want to save, and then what's left over is what you have to spend. And just by doing that is so much more empowering because it takes out the drama. You know, I have this much to spend if I so choose, instead of I feel bad for spending this amount of money.

Mary: 44:28

Yeah. Well, and I can already warn people it's going to be uncomfortable because it's kind of like keeping a food diary. You can tell yourself I don't eat that much sugar. So you write down what you eat in a week. Um, the other thing that I think can make it easier is often at the end of the year, your credit card will offer the opportunity to like do a pie chart so you can see like what am I spending on eating out and what and it is cringy, but I think you need to start armed with information and then to circle back on what you talked about with values. If you can decide, you know, is eating out really in alignment? And I know it's just something my husband and I love to do. So, you know, it's that's an experience for us. So to us, that's important within reason. Um, but I think, yeah, do when you look at it, then start to put that frame of the values on it and say, like, is this really what I want to be doing with my money? So yeah, I love that that's a great starting point. So this has been really awesome. And I also listened to some snippets of your podcast. So I want you to remind us what your podcast is, what you can do for people and where they can find you. And then I will link that in the show notes.

Shari: 45:47

Great. Thank you. Um, my podcast is called Everyone's Talking Money, T A L K I N. Um, I have two episodes a week, and it's a lot of personal finance um advice, education, but I have guests on as well that will talk about some of the personal finance emotions and and their stories that we carry. But it's just a way to get some advice, learn more about money without all of the emotional junk. So we're just addressing it and then we're putting it aside. And again, I cut two episodes weekly, so plenty of content. Um, and you can find that wherever you listen to podcasts. And then also my firm is called GWA Wealth. So you can go to GWAwealth.com and that's you can learn how I work with my clients there.

Mary: 46:40

Well, and I do want to put a plug-in for that podcast because I think the more that we listen to something and open ourselves to it, the more we become comfortable with it and savvy. So the same way women would listen to this podcast because there's mental health topics and sometimes we talk about nutrition. And today we're talking about money. I think when there's something where we want to grow, but we feel uncomfortable, I think as you listen and you start to learn, then the barrier diminishes. And I know this just from listening to the little bit I did, it's very listenable, it's very actionable. I think it just feels, it doesn't feel stressful. It feels like kind of like, oh wow, like I never thought about it like that. Because you bring in some of that mental health, some of that mindset stuff, which I think for women is so important. So thank you so much for being here and sharing all of your knowledge today. Thank you. Thanks for having me. This was a fun conversation. You are welcome. And I want to thank everyone for listening. So I have something fun coming in this new year. It's my first book, Nature Knows Growing and Thriving Through the Wisdom of Plants. And it's really my philosophy on living your best life, which, if you listen to this podcast, you know I love to talk about nature and plants and how we are like the plants. So I have examples from the plant world to help you kind of live like a plant. And actually, it also has beautiful illustrations, which is one of my favorite parts about it. So if you want to get some sneak peeks plus early access, sign up for my lunch team at maryrothwell.net forward slash nature knows. There's a link in the show notes. And until next time, go out into the world and be the amazing, resilient, vibrant violet that you are.