Equine Mythbusters Part 2

In this episode, a couple of my closest friends, Brenna DeGeer, Colorado Brand Inspector and long time horse trainer, and Brittnee Woodward, also a long time Colorado horse trainer, continue our talk through a highly controversial list of commonly held beliefs in the horse world. You may or may not agree with everything you hear, but that’s part of the fun.

Part 1 is in Episode 3.

Note: Not all of these are technically myths, but if they aren’t, they’re certainly more complicated than a lot of people think.

Here's this episode's list:

1.       Natural horsemanship is the ideal way of training horses

2.       Rope halters and bareback riding are better and more natural

3.       Trail horses don’t need arena work

4.       Anyone calling themselves a trainer knows what they are doing 

5.       Liberty training makes excellent horses

6.       Small horses can’t carry big riders

7.       Your horse is there to be your best friend and therapy session.

8.       There are no bad horses, only bad riders

Here’s Part 1's list: 
1. Draw Reins and other “headset” training devices are bad
2. Horses shouldn’t be blanketed in winter
3. Big bits are harsh 
4. Rescue horses are just as good as any horse
5. Mustangs are just as good as any horse
6. You can’t ride papers
7. 30 day colt starting is enough time

If you need a horse trained, both of these ladies are good ones to talk to. You can look them both up on Facebook.
Brittnee’s info can be found at Old Glory Performance Horses. She also makes some amazing cowhide flowers and horseshoe art at Wild Hides on Etsy.

If you like the show, please be sure to share it or subscribe/follow/rate and review! All these things help get the show out there and keeps it going!

For questions, comments, or ideas: ThePhilosophicalCowgirl@gmail.com

Transcript

[00:00:00] Hey there, and welcome to the Philosophical Cowgirl. I'm your host, Sarah Geis, a former philosophy professor and current full time horse person. This show is where the horse world meets the deep questions of life. In each episode, I'll share insights from my own learning process and sometimes discuss fascinating ideas with some of the brightest minds out there.

I'm a relentless learner. So in this podcast, you get to ride along with me on that lifelong journey. Whether you're a philosopher at heart. A horse person looking for something new to listen to, or you're just curious about how these two worlds intersect. This is the show for you.

This is episode two of a two part series. The first episode is under episode [00:01:00] three. It's called Equine Mythbusters Part One. I think that it's a really good idea to listen to that one first, and then come back for more good stuff on this one, and you'll have the whole picture. But if you've already listened to part one, then here's part two.

Okay, next on the list.

It's best to train your own horse. And, and I phrased it that way, because there's a really well known trainer out there who is a big deal in most circles, and he says you are the best person to train your own horse. So I, I agree. I actually, I do agree, but I think you need to do it under the guidance and education of somebody that knows what they're doing.

I think that it's okay to send your horse off to a trainer for 60, 90, 120 days. [00:02:00] Even show up for your lessons, show up, show up twice a week, show up three times a week, like show up and go along that journey with your horse. And if you don't have a trainer, that's okay with, with, you know, putting you together like that and find another trainer because.

You have to develop that together. I see a lot of people that are like, I want to buy a bomb proof horse. I want to buy a horse that I can go take out and trail ride alone. Trail ride alone. Well, guess what? You have to earn that.

And it takes time. Years sometimes to earn that and develop that relationship or develop that confidence between you and this, you know, thousand pound flight animal. So show up, like maybe you don't necessarily, you aren't qualified to do [00:03:00] all the training, but don't just drop your horse off at the trainers and go.

Yeah, they'll fix my violin and put new strings on it and polish it. I don't, I don't really know how to play the violin, but it'll just play itself when I get it back. It won't be a big deal. How about this? Cause I, I think to an extent you're right, but to an extent I'm, I don't know if it's that I disagree or maybe I'm just adding a caveat there, but um, there are times when someone buys a horse that is so far out of their league that They can't.

That's a whole difference. Yeah. Like if they, if they try to train that horse, they will ruin that horse and or hurt themselves. Right. And in those situations, like, for example, if someone buys a young horse to show, but they don't know how to bring along a young horse to show, um, that horse needs to be in a program.

[00:04:00] That can handle it. And, and you're, what you said was exactly right, that they need to be showing up. They need to be watching the progress. They need to be as involved as they can reasonably be. Right. Right. And if you're not qualified to get on your young horse, you know, your trainer can put you on another horse, bringing you along with your horse, right?

There's no reason that you can't come. Your trainer can ride your horse. You ride a lesson horse. And, you know, you, you still are being brought along together and so what I'm doing right now with my cutting filly, um, I'm not riding her right now very much. I mean, I'm warming her up and cooling her down, you know, and I'll occasionally ride her on the flag occasionally.

But the reason for that is because I am now. We're bringing her along at the top level, right? We're bringing her along to show NCHA, which is like crazy competitive. And [00:05:00] those horses gain or lose value so easily that. I am aware that my timing, because I, I've done a ton of stuff, right? I have a ton of experience in a lot of areas, but not NCHA and not, not working out of the herd at that level.

And so because of that, I'm aware enough. About my own shortcomings to realize that the guy that needs to be on that horse right now, when she's learning her muscle memory and learning rapid fire stuff and habits and all of that, he needs to be the one that has the better timing than I do. You know what I mean?

And the better skill set. And so I'm there all the time and I'm watching and I'm learning and I'm riding other horses, like you said, and I'm writing. my older mare, Jesse, uh, working on this stuff, working on my own timing, where my feet are, um, how I use my seat, all of that kind of stuff. Um, but [00:06:00] I am aware that I am a liability to the development of that two year old right now.

Right. Yeah, no, if it was me, I'd be in the same boat. My clients are constantly bothering me to go show, uh, NRHA. And I'm like, one, I don't have the horsepower, not even close. I do not have the horsepower to show up at the NRHA. Mm-hmm. I, you guys, I would get laughed outta the building.

Two, if I did have the horsepower, that horse would be at my trainer's house, like it would be at my trainer's house, and I would get to go to Chuck's and he could tell me how bad I was screwing it up every week. You know, and then we, we go, uh, show to the best of our abilities and cry in the truck on the way home.

So, I mean, what's best or not, regardless. Anytime you're interacting with your horse, you're training it to some degree. That's the thing, like what's best or not.

And it's your responsibility as a horse [00:07:00] owner and a horse person and inspiring her at any level you're at to do the very best you can for that horse. So, I mean, period what's best or not should be what's best for the horse. If that's you, if that's somebody else, As long as you're taking responsibility for your piece of the relationship, which is huge because that horse doesn't have a choice.

You're it. You're all that there is. So, you know, if you're the kind of, uh, horse person that has a 50, 000 horse in training with a top notch dude, and you're paying the bill, and that person's feeling pressure that, you know, maybe they want to, they're trying to push the horse into something that they're not ready for.

And you're taking lessons, but you're not being fair to the horse. That's on you. If you're not feeding your horse, if you're not watering it, if you're blanketing it, or you're not blanketing it, all of it is on [00:08:00] you. It's your responsibility. They don't have a choice. So you are training your horse to some degree anytime you're interacting with it if you go to turn your horse loose and you let it run away from you don't be surprised if one day you go to turn it loose and it wheels and kicks you on the way by you know if you're one of those people that ties your horse on an eight foot length Don't be surprised when that horse won't stand still or it gets a leg over a lead rope or something like that, like, you know, use your head.

And if you're lacking in knowledge, then you need to, you need to seek, you need to seek the answers to your questions. And sometimes you'll find that in your horse and sometimes you'll find that in your community. Um, but if you're not doing the work, then you're not behaving like a horse person and your horse deserves better.

So true. So maybe the better way to say it is not that it, that you're the best person to train your own horse. It's more that you have the responsibility to become the best person [00:09:00] to train your horse. You know, um, Yes, you, you have the responsibility to be present when you're handling your horse and gain the knowledge to be a good horseman.

It's if you're going to buy a horse, you are now responsible for learning how to be a horseman. Yep. Yep. That's it. He's not going to teach you. I mean, he will, but you won't like how he teaches you. That's true. Yeah, or he'll get to the point where You won't like the way the horse has to teach you. It won't be fun.

It can be fun, but you're talking about people who are, you know, to the level of recognizing, Oh, hey, it turns out I've been riding my broke ass horse like a, like a high school horse.

And then maybe I need to seek help with this because my horse is telling me that this isn't fair. Right. Um, natural horsemanship is the ideal way [00:10:00] of training horses.

There's no such thing. There's no such thing. The only natural horsemanship that there is, is that horses eat, and they drink, and they poop. So as long as your horse has food, and water, and a place to poop, that's it. It's just taking care of them. Otherwise, there's no such thing. There's no natural piece of the world where humans ride anything.

It's just not natural, except for planes and automobiles. You mean fiberglass sticks? I know it's not natural either. Fiberglass sticks and strings aren't natural? No. No. You ever see a horse out in the wild chasing another one with a stick and string? The best way to train your horse is the way that works for you.

And if it's not working, stop doing it. The biggest thing is people don't realize, they'll be like, Oh, I'm following the instructions of this guy, it's on the [00:11:00] internet, and I'm doing this thing. And I'm like It's not working. One, you're, you don't understand the concept of what that person was trying to teach you.

You're just going through a step. Like I have this lady at the barn when I own the boarding barn and she followed this guy on the internet. And the guy's a good trainer on the internet, whatever. I'm not a big fan, but he's, he's fine. It's fine. Follow somebody, educate yourself. I don't care. Do whatever you're going to do.

And she saw him with, you know, those little party things that you spin and they go zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Oh yeah. Her horse is way spooky. He is a 10 year old off track thoroughbred. He raced for 10 years. This thing has no manners. No manners at all. So she thinks she's going to fix him by walking around the barn buzzing this thing constantly.

And she's like, well, that's what the trainer on the internet does. And I'm like, no, that's not what he does. That's not, it's not, it's not. So if it's not [00:12:00] working, stop doing it. Stop it. But I can't tell you So many of those things in the wild. Like how do the mustangs deal with that shit? Really. Like, they're everywhere.

Well, and I can't tell you how many times, when I, when I worked for um, a trainer for a while, one specific trainer, I can't tell you how many times we had to fix horses that came out of natural horsemanship programs. Because they were disrespectful, they were completely checked out, and um, That's the application is wrong.

Yes. 

 The horse has a brain the size of a walnut. Okay. You need to tell it what to do most of the time or else it's going to start making decisions and you're not going to like the decisions that it makes. It's a bad decision maker.

The horse does not make good decisions. That's why you have to teach it how to think. Yes, you have to teach it how to think, or you have to at least teach it to [00:13:00] just say like, Okay, I need to just listen to what, whatever this human's doing, I will do. If the human is calm, I will remain calm. If, you know, if the human goes forward, I will go forward.

If the human goes backwards, I will go backwards, and this will keep me safe. And usually what people don't understand is whatever does work with them after horsemanship Wise. Um, it's because they are paying attention to us and trying to figure out what the best way to get along with us is because horses don't want to be struggles and um, they, they want to get along.

They're just wired that way. No, and there's nothing, there's nothing natural about it. No, but, but what we also need to realize is because of that, because it's a relational interaction with a unique individual on the horse end and a unique individual on the people end, there is no checklist. That's going to be able to be replicated in [00:14:00] every single situation.

And so we have to be able to, that's what people like. I think about the natural horsemanship programs is that usually they're a checklist of some. Yeah, there's follow, follow the instructions. And when you're following instructions to a tee, you're not paying attention to the nuances of that particular situation that may need to be changed or may may require some tweaks here and there.

Natural horsemanship is a title. It's, it's a gimmick. It's a title given that, you know, some businessmen have made a ton of money on and good for them. They have better business minds than I have. I'm learning a lot from those people too, business wise, not training wise, but It's, it's a business ploy and you know, cross the natural out and stick to horsemanship.

Yes. Like, stick to horsemanship. It's like the mindful, the mindful horsemanship and the, you know, the spiritual horsemanship. That's the next natural horsemanship. That's the next one [00:15:00] that's, you know, we're already seeing it is, is this whole new, like spiritual, be mindful, be, you know, that kind of stuff.

But my, uh, my favorite one is like the, the natural horsemanship sort of goes along this whole track of that, that the horse is smart. Right. That you're going to have some kind of, I don't, I don't even know, some kind of discussion with, with the horse and like, kind of like the Liberty where you're going to give the horses say, and my, I always laugh at, I get a lot of customer, I'm sure you guys do.

You guys get customers that bring you their horse and tell you how smart it is. Yeah. They say, my horse is so smart. Here's, here's, you know, my unicorn is so smart. Um, I say, I don't like horses that are smart. You know what smart people do smart people question authority. They evade their taxes. They say, come back with a warrant.[00:16:00] 

They say things like, why would I do that? I'm not following, you know, I'm not, I'm not going to follow the north. You know what dumb people do dumb people shut up, sit down, do what they're told pay their taxes. And they go to work every day and they just put their head down and go to work. I like dumb horses.

I like dumb horses because they don't ask questions. They put their head down. They don't ask why. And they go to work. So stop telling me. Not necessarily a badge of honor. All right, let's move on. Rope halters and bareback riding are better and more natural. This one's awesome because I'll tell you what I use rope halters on the stuff that needs to have its attention gotten, you know, it needs a little more bite, um, needs a little more.

Aggression. That's funny how backgrounds make a difference because that's never been the reason I [00:17:00] use rope halters. I've always used rope halters because if a horse sets back you can always undo the knot. If you do it right. True. Most people do not, which makes me crazy. But, um, yeah, I mean that's the main reason I use rope halters.

And, you know, you can have all lengths of faces and put the noseband in the right place. Um, and then. It's just less stuff on their face that way. So, I mean, that's the reason that I use rope halters, but once again, nothing natural about that shit. You don't see horses out in the wild being like, Hey, I need you to come with me.

Let me get my rope halter. No, it doesn't go that way. But, and bareback riding is good for a person at a certain point in their horsemanship to learn how to find their seat and communicate with their seat and gain better control of their legs. The consequences are pretty immediate if you don't, um, but. I wouldn't say that's [00:18:00] natural either, because, duh, you know, we weren't riding on the back of the horses.

That's kind of some silly Disney movie bullshit. Yes, it is! Well, and here's, here's what I always like to tell people, because I'm, I'm really into, um, riding in a way that prolongs the health of the horse, right? Prolongs the amount of time the horse feels good while you're working them, right?

Well, if you think about bareback riding, what is in contact with the horse for the longest? Your seat bones. So it's not exactly going to be super duper comfortable long term, even if you're riding in a bareback pad or a treeless saddle, your horse is going to start to feel those seat bones pretty intensely.

And the nature of a saddle tree is to be something structural that distributes the pressure over a wider area. So it blows my mind. How many people buy treeless [00:19:00] saddles? Oh my gosh, garbage. Don't do it. Yeah, you won't catch me, but there's one horse. You'll catch me riding bareback and that's it. I, my customers will ask me that all the time.

They're like, well, Did you get on any bareback? Hell no, I didn't. I ain't riding your horse bareback. Are you crazy? The only time I want to ride bareback is when I'm swimming them in the lake in the summertime. I just did a 60 day cold start on your horse. I'm absolutely not stepping on it bareback. I don't.

So you, you brought me that horse because it runs off every time you swing your leg over. I'm not getting on it bareback. It's not happening. No. It's great. Every now and then. On broke stuff. You know, it's great every now and then to test your own seat, obviously, and to try to work on your own balance and all that.

And sometimes, um, my gray horse that just, you know, he's super broke, but we don't ever get to him. Sometimes I'm like, he needs some time, but I don't feel like saddling him up. [00:20:00] So I'm going to be lazy and get on a bareback and also work on my own position.

But it is not a badge of honor because I'm taking care of him or something. Right. I do that. Sometimes I gotta like show a client, Hey, you can't in fact sit down and balance at a lope. You know, let me go load my horse around bareback and show you like you don't need to be gripping all over the place.

You can just sit up here. So, you know, it's good. Every once in a while it kind of help people. I mean, so when I was growing up, uh, me and my best friend, Brad, well, my sister too, like we all had this rule. Our parents had this rule collectively that if we were not riding with an adult, we had to ride bareback.

And I'm grateful that they did that. And it had to do with, you know, they didn't want a kid to get hung up in a stirrup and drug because we were, you know, I mean, it's a different day and age. I wish that I knew then what kids that age now know, like my stepdaughter, her horsemanship is.[00:21:00] 

Way above what mine was at 17 years old when I was just out there jousting with dried up, um, sunflower stalks and playing cowboys and Indians and roping. You know what I mean? But, um, that's, that I think was super valuable as kids for us to become good riders. Like, you know, our parents, they didn't let us ride with saddles if we weren't with an adult.

Um, and we learned a lot that way at 41. If I ride for 20 minutes, bareback, my hips tell me about it for two days. You know, it's, it can be used as a tool for sure. And just like everything else, it should be, but It does make us do that too. She'd put me on something waspy and she'd be like, this horse will drag you to death if you come off of it.

You got a foot hung in the stirrup. You're only allowed to ride it bareback. Okay. These are our own horses. We knew them. And I mean, we did do all kinds of crazy stuff like bored kids in a small town in Wyoming will do. [00:22:00] Um, but, uh, yeah, no getting on any old horse bareback as a trainer. Absolutely not. No.

No. No. Not doing it. Okay, next one. Trail horses don't need arena work. And I guess a related one is trail riders don't need arena work. So, if you're going to be a trail rider, you have to earn that right. And, I don't, I don't care if you disagree. I don't care if you think you can just go buy a dude horse, you need to learn a discipline first. I don't care what discipline. Learn dressage. Be able to do, you know, an intro or a first level test. Learn some jumping. Be able to jump, you know, a one foot, one foot, even ground poles. I don't care. Be able to walk, trot, canter in the arena, all three gates.

Um, any, any discipline, I don't care what [00:23:00] it is, but you need to learn a discipline before you get to trail ride. That's it. If you try to go out on a trail ride with a trail horse that you think you can just go by and it's not going to be spooky or stupid or jump out from under you and you think you can just go drop your hand and have yourself a little trail ride.

Good luck. It'll go wrong at some point. You have to be a horseman first and a trail rider second every day of the week. And people think that it's just a toy. It's a jeep. It's a bike. It's a four wheeler that you can just go by. And it's supposed to just go. do the thing and walk down the trail and why doesn't he spooks he won't he won't leave the house every time I get past the driveway he freaks out and turns around and comes back that's great when he comes back why don't you take him to the arena and lope circles until he'd like to go for a trail ride oh because you don't know how to lope right [00:24:00] your horse doesn't want to leave the gate and you don't know how to get him past the gate like It's just a horsemanship comes first.

I completely and totally agree with you, Brittany. I mean, we're talking about, um, a dirt bike that can make real bad decisions. I mean, every year we hear about people who we know. I mean, recently there's a fella that we know had skills, mad skills, riding all kinds of different horses, and he died in a freak horse accident outside.

I mean, this shit happens. You need to know your course, you need to know how to troubleshoot, you need to know how to keep yourself safe, you need to know where your limits are, and how to recognize them. You also need to recognize your opportunities, because I don't every person I know, every Every single person I know, including myself sometimes, I catch myself in this, misses opportunities to make your horse better.

And when you're missing those opportunities, you're always training your horse. Whether you think you are or not, [00:25:00] then, you know, things start to slip. Things can go bad. Things can go bad when they're, everything is set up to be just right. Like if your dirt bike could make bad decisions, what are you going to do with it?

Okay. So like for me, there's only two things that I'll bail off of a horse coming over backwards on me and a horse is running off of a cliff. You want to know how I know? Because I've had those things happen. Okay. Shit happens, even with the best of horses, like, there are, you know, it comes to mind a few years ago, a little girl was barrel racing on her mid teens, not even an old horse, solid season, been there, done that, that son of a bitch had a heart attack and fell down on her and killed her in the middle of a pattern, like, this shit happens, you need to know how to handle yourself, and how to handle your horse, like, You know, how many times have you heard of people either taking a pack string up or riding their horse [00:26:00] on a trail?

They had no business being on. They couldn't read their horse. They couldn't read the trail. The horse fell to its death. Yep. And probably took horses with it if it's on a pack string or tied to a pack string. Yeah. Or they just lost, they just lost their horse or something like that. 

Um, to be honest, I don't, I don't even ride outside anymore. Um, I'm just straight up on his clients will bring me horses and they're like, Oh, if you can put some trail miles on it. And I'm like, I don't, I don't, I'm not going to put it on a trailer. I'm not going to go take it outside. I'm not going to spend an entire day of my life hauling your horse over to Chatfield.

So that I can try to sit on it past strollers and cross creeks. I'm not doing it. I am absolutely not doing it. That's not why I ride horses. I don't enjoy going out on the trail. I see no reason to trail ride. I have trail ridden hundreds and hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of miles. I have trail ridden all over the Rocky Mountains.

I've done all the things. I've been up all the [00:27:00] places. If I'm going to go, I'm going to go on one of my horses. I can try to Get closer to guaranteeing my own safety because well then enjoy yourself like yeah I'm writing is supposed to be enjoyable in a letter, right? I'm trying to have fun So I'm gonna go on something that I know I can trust for the most part and I'm gonna go somewhere that your horse Can't go your horse not going it's not gonna make it.

It's it's gonna die trying right? I might break its legs And you don't want me taking your horse up there. You don't. I promise you don't. Well, I do a ton of outside riding and I have, like, it's right out my back door. We got a different situation, right? And And I, I enjoy it and I use it as, um, like a positive sort of reinforcement for a lot of horses.

We might do some things that are hard in the arena and then I'll take them on a little, little walk out in the Hills here. It's rough country here though. And God, it never ceases to amaze me how many people want to want you to ride their horse outside [00:28:00] and don't want to have it shot. Well, F you, dude.

Like, there's, it's all rocky and shit out here. I'm telling you as a horse person who's ridden out here hundreds of miles at this time, that your horse needs to be shod. And I'm not going to take it outside until it's ready, because I do value my life. I don't want to do my horse, so I don't think I'll send it to you.

Perfect. You're not the kind of client I want. And um, you know, people that want you to take them out farther, I don't blame you. Like, if they want you to haul your horse, Somewhere else to really do that. You have to, where you're at, you have to charge accordingly and people don't want to pay for it.

I don't want to go out and risk getting your horse hurt. I can go ride in my pasture. I got 300 acres out there. You know what's out there? T posts and barbed wire. Everywhere. Everywhere. There's down T posts and barbed wire. If that sucker gets away from me or steps in a hole and breaks its ankle, I'm not into it.

I'm not into it. I don't want to go out there. I don't want to ride, especially alone. So many people want to ride alone. And I know you probably ride alone a lot, Brenna, and you're punchy, and [00:29:00] you're tough. I'm not doing it. Well, and a lot of times, too, like, that, that's the thing, you just mentioned holes, um, barbed wire.

I mean, there are so many situations where your horse can get hurt, or you can get hurt outside, that don't, happen in the arena. And so when you're not prepared to ride in the arena, well, then, and to, and to tell your horse, whoa, and whoa means, whoa, right now, because one more step, you're going to get in that barbed wire loop that's on the ground.

Um, you know, unless you're able to do that and then keep your horse still when they did step into the barbed wire, uh, or something like that, you know, there, or maybe. ask your horse to move away from a ledge or an area where there's loose ground next to a ledge, you know, that kind of stuff, you're going to just get yourself killed and get your horse killed.

And I can tell you, I mean, I have ridden outside so much, so much, like, It's insane how many times, how many [00:30:00] hours I've spent on the trail or just in the wilderness or just out and how many times I've been in the arena and the vast majority of times when my heart has jumped into my throat or my stomach is, you know, just tied itself into knots.

It has been outside. It's, it has not been in the arena. It's because stuff can happen so fast. Like the other day, I was outside, um, on a, on a horse trying to move cattle and the ground was frozen and we were trying to sort the cutting cattle from the beef cattle on frozen ground. And I cannot tell you how many times I felt like the horse was going to go out from under me.

You know, and I had to keep that horse balanced, slow, but precise so that we could still sort the cattle. And you're using your outside time there to do some impeccable training. So that's the difference, I think, in where we're, I mean, just all of this [00:31:00] stuff has many shades. Nothing is ever black and white when it comes to horses.

Like, I get where Brittany's coming from, and there's a lot of horses that I wouldn't step foot outside on. I get where you're, where you're coming from. Same samesies, and you know, like, for me, I've done a ton of training outside that you can't replicate inside. You want to know what really teaches a horse to neck rein super fast?

Go weave some cholla cactus. That shit works. You know, they make a wrong turn once and I mean, they're, they neck rain after that period, you know, but, um, it's, it's to each their own and the person's got to drop their ego and understand who they are, where they're at in their horsemanship, who their horse is, where they're at in their humanship, however you want to call it.

And, and, you know, make smart choices, make good choices and use your tools well. 

Here's the next one. Anyone calling themselves a trainer knows what they're doing. Now, I don't think people actively think this a lot, but they act as though they do. You know [00:32:00] what I mean? They, they operate as though this is true. You know, um, years ago when I was little, uh, a guy that, uh, was a hell of a horseman that I really looked up to a lot.

His name is Jim Weisbeck. Um, he's up in Thermopolis. Um, most people wouldn't have heard of him, but he's, He's a great horseman and he says it best that, you know, a horse trainer is just your neighbor. Anybody who's touting themselves a horse trainer, they're probably just your neighbor and they have a horse.

Like you got to do your research. It's like saying somebody who calls themselves a tattoo artist, and then you go ahead and go have them give you a tattoo without looking at their portfolio. Come on. Use your head. And so in the, in contemporary society, anybody with a Facebook page can be a horse trainer.

That's all you need. Yeah. I think the real horse trainers aren't people telling you that they're horse trainers. One, because most of them are going to be so humble, they'll just [00:33:00] tell you, oh no, I, I just kick bolts in circles, you know, that's all I do. And two, I think a lot of people are really loud and the, the really good horsemen are hidden in the corners.

and the crevices and they're just quiet and they mostly keep to themselves and they enjoy the work they're doing and you have to go hunt them out. They're not loud. They're not, you know, boisterous. They're not out there screaming and yelling. You know, you see like a Facebook post of, Oh, I'm, I'm looking for a trainer to do this, that or the other and start my cult.

And there is a thousand people tagged or saying, I have openings, this, that and the other. How many times do you hear this? Somebody saying, This is hands down the best trainer, hands down, right? Like, Oh, I'm sure there's, there's nobody [00:34:00] else that's any good. Right. And most, most of the folks who are doing good and doing right by these horses are just, they're just quiet and they're keeping to themselves and they're hidden in the corners and they're not, they're not the loudest voice in the room.

I promise you that it's kind of like. You know, the, the guy that's actually going to kick your ass is, is the one you least expect. He's the quietest guy in the room is the guy that's going to actually clear out the bar. You know, it's, it's sort of like that, like, like you girls are not, not the loudest people in town.

I don't, I don't see your ass. This podcast has been hard for me for that reason, because I have to promote it, you know? And, um, you And I I'm doing that online business stuff too, and I have to promote it. And that is so uncomfortable for me because it feels like it feels somehow like I'm taking the authenticity out of myself or out of my program, you know, and making it something that it's not, but I mean, I [00:35:00] know that's not entirely true, but that's how it feels, you know?

And I think it's because y'all are the same way. I think it's because we're so focused on the horse and so focused on the job. Like even somebody like, like Matt Koch. Matt Koch? Yeah. He's the quietest. He's fun. Like, he's so quiet, and just keep to himself, and reserved, and like, just Yeah.

Lesson doesn't even do lessons. No. I've gotten to ride with them, but it's, it was hard. It took some work. I know Amanda McCarthy was trying to ride with them, but some of the best horsemen I know are just so quiet and reserved, like Jessica Dowkowski. Nobody's even heard of her. Jessica is one of the most skilled people I've ever met in my life.

She's blown me away. And that's hard. Cause I'm, I'm hard to impress. I'm like, yeah, whatever you think you're a trainer, shut up. Nobody cares. And I watched Jessica do that with that Mustang. And I was [00:36:00] like, holy cow, man, results speak for themselves. Right. Right. I was like, that's, that's amazing. And then I watched her do it again and again and again and again.

And I was like, okay, all right, girl, you got something going and a lot of people haven't seen enough, um, really truly good horses and good horsemanship to know what should impress them and what shouldn't. And so like with you watching her, you've seen things right. And you've seen a lot and, and watching her impresses you.

And that. means something, but there's a lot of people who are impressed and you're like, you haven't been out much, have you? There's, you know, on that, on that note, like, I think just like people fall for the propaganda of the natural horsemanship, a lot of people who, um, you know, are interested or passionate, but don't have the right connections, don't know where to look.

So, I mean, you know, what, what kind of horse, whatever kind of [00:37:00] horse you're after, You need to go where those horses are working. So like, for instance, just for instance, like one of my favorite things to watch at a rodeo are the pickup horses. And that's one sour thing about this watching the NFR through Sling is, um, they didn't show how the pickup horses worked.

When I saw them, I already picked a favorite, right? But, um, You know, those horses are the unsung heroes of like the rodeo industry, basically unsung, unless you're a part of it and you watch them and you see how amazing they are. Um, you got to go where the horses that you like are working and find what you like, and then when I say find it, I mean, when you see something you like, I want you to see, to define which pieces of it you like.

Do you like that horse's head carriage? Do you like the look in its eye? Do you like the way it's using its ears? How's it using its feet? How's it using its ass? Where are its shoulders going? Are its ribs pushing? Blah blah and wherever. What's [00:38:00] happening with its mouth? What kind of gear is it wearing?

How's the guy using his hands? How's he using his legs? How's he using his seat? Like, there are pieces and parts you need to pick, pick, define, and then You can take those pieces to the people you're looking at as prospective trainers, watch them work their horses and see if those pieces fit, or if enough of those pieces fit that you think that they might be a good fit.

Don't just take somebody's word for it. That they're a trainer. If they won't let you come watch them ride, if they won't let you see their horses, if they won't let you watch, you know, let you watch them work your horse or give you lessons. If they're not giving you updates. Pull your horse. Yep. Don't take it there somewhere.

They act like they don't care, right? Like they're not really passionate about what, you know, in the performance horse industry, especially in the cutting and the rain cow horse and in the rainers, there's two different ways to get results. And one of those ways is [00:39:00] brutality. And when I, um, you know, curious about a trainer in, in the performance horse industry, we're talking in the cutting and the reading and the cow horse.

I always, I ask one of my trainers that I'm friends with, and one of the first questions I always ask him, he's an old guy, he's been around, he knows all of them, right? He knows every single one of them, he's seen them, he's ridden with them. The first thing I ask him is, I say, Chuck, is, is this guy nice to the horses?

Yes or no? And if it's no, then I won't even give that trainer the time of day, you know, and a lot of times you can tell in the warm up. You can go to a show, you can watch these trainers in the warm up, and you can see which trainers are using kindness and still getting results, right? We're still talking performance horse industry.

They're still spurring on these horses. But there's a line there where it turns into brutality and, [00:40:00] you know, if you're at a cutting bar and the rule is if they're not bleeding, they're not learning, then you gotta go. Yeah. You gotta go. Like that's, it's not cool. 

Ask their peers, right? when you get to certain people, they, they will. Say a lot of good things about a lot of trainers and when they don't, when it's somebody that generally does speak well about most people and then they can't speak well about somebody that you ask them about, that's a problem, right?

That's a major red flag. Yeah. And if you get somebody who can't stop running their mouth, that's also a red flag. You know, that's a big red flag. All three of us have very different styles of horsemanship. And I also believe that we all do for our horses a lot of good. And that we could all do each other's horses a lot of good.

And we can all learn from each other. Like it's, there are as many horsemen as there are horses out there. And there's going to be different ingredients to a good [00:41:00] cake. Anyway, you cut it. Um, but if you're going to put rat poison in that shit, it's not going to be any good at all. So you got to do some, some diligence there, but in order to do the diligence, you got to know what kind of cake you're after.

Do you want angel food or chocolate? That's true. That's so true. Cause I am in the show ring, you know, like I show that's almost all what I do is showing. And, um, I can never imagine you doing the things. that are the reason I don't want to be a part of this show. Yeah, no, and, and that's the thing, right, is, is I do it, but I also love the horses so much.

I mean, to a fault, you know, um, and, Yet I've learned a ton from you. And part of it is because you have those skills. You know, I've learned a ton from Brittany. Brittany shows some Brittany, um, has those skills too. I mean, but, but from different angles and with different, a different background and different perspectives and, um, all [00:42:00] of that.

So, yeah, you're absolutely right. And we know If someone were, if someone were to ask us about one of the other ones of us, you know, we would be able to say like, okay, well yeah, she's great, but here's maybe where she's best. Or, um, you know, maybe like, so somebody asked on Facebook the other day on one of these groups for a reining trainer.

And there were several people that were recommended that are patently not reigning trainers. And, It was just funny to me, you know, because it's like, all right, ask the peers, right? The peers will say that person's fine. That person's good, but a pleasure trainer or the way they were asking, right? It's not me.

Somebody needs to like tag, like, you know, uh, What is it? Devin Warren. Devin Warren, yeah. Yeah, that person needed to go to like Devin Warren or the Schwarzenbergers or the Doolittles or something and people are tagging me in that. I'm like, one, I don't have less verses. Two, I'm not showing NRHA. Why are you guys [00:43:00] tagging me in this?

 Don't don't be tagging me in this. They need to go see Doolittle's and Schwarzenberger's or you know, Devin Warren, something like that. But so many people just don't understand this person who's a Oh, I need, my trail horse needs miles and somebody will be tagging me and I'm like just no man.

Let's, let's uh, move to this next one. So it is, uh, this is a great one. Liberty Training makes excellent horses. And I've done it. I did Liberty a lot. Yeah. What'd you say? You spelled vicious wrong. Yeah, exactly. You see horses that have their ears pinned and they're like, ah! The vast majority of the time.

So here's my basic two cents on it. Is that liberty training can be done well, right? If you look at Dan James, [00:44:00] the guy does it beautifully. The horses, generally speaking, seem reasonably happy, right? They don't seem like they are trying to eat him, um, or kill him. But the vast majority of, times when someone is doing liberty, the horse's ears are pinned, their, their tail is swishing, their bluff charging, um, sometimes there's, yeah, and, um, I think the vast majority of people can't read horse behavior and body language well enough to be able to have that turn out to be a healthy way of doing things.

There's only two things I've ever wanted to teach a horse liberty wise. And to this day, I don't know how to do it. And I would like to know how to do it. If you've ever seen the Duchess and the Dirt Water Fox, which is an old ass western with Goldie Hawn and some other fellow with a cute mouth. And, um, he has this horse named Ace.

Pretty sure the horse is named Ace. And he's a black horse, and he whistles! from the top of a [00:45:00] casino or, you know, whatever, because he's running for his life because he's, you know, some kind of card shark or something. And he whistles and the horse runs from wherever it's at in the town underneath him.

And then the guy jumps. Onto the horse and takes off. I think that's real cool and I would like my horse to pick up my hat when I'm on it. Score my rope. .

 I have kind of a weird take on Liberty with like, I, I think, I believe that horses learn through negative reinforcement training.

And people think that negative reinforcement training is beating a horse. That's not what it is. Because it uses the word negative, which makes sense. Yeah. So negative reinforcement training is simply taking something away. Positive reinforcement training is adding something to the equation. So like in a dog, positive reinforcement training would be adding a ball, adding a treat, adding praise.

Adding praise with the horse. Negative reinforcement training is taking something away. I'm going to take off my leg. I'm going to release my reign. I'm going to [00:46:00] take off the pressure of the flag. So in order to take something away, you have to have something to take away, right? Which means you have to apply pressure in some way or another.

When you try to do positive reinforcement training with a horse, they don't understand it. They're not naturally wired for it. They don't comprehend that an action would result in a reward. And you have to teach them to understand positive reinforcement training because they don't get it. They don't naturally understand it and so I think a lot of people don't, don't, they skip that part and they just get this horse that's like, hey, when I intimidate her treats fall out and if, if that doesn't work, I just intimidate her a little harder and [00:47:00] treats fall out.

And if I pin my ears a little harder and really get mad at her, treats fall out, you know. And they start to build this horse that's very frustrated and aggressive because they don't, they don't correlate the action with the reward. They keep kind of bouncing around and trying things. And yeah, they're kind of doing stuff and they're, they're sort of doing, you know, this liberty work and they know that they're supposed to do that and they know that they get food, but they are not really correlating it.

Yeah, that's true. I agree with that. Yeah, and it turns into a dance of intimidation on both sides, you know what I mean? And frustration. Yeah. The horse is so frustrated. Mm hmm. I never really had thought about it, that you have to teach a horse about positive reinforcement, but you're 100 percent right.

Yeah, they don't get it. They don't get it. Yeah, once, once you teach a horse, you know, how to get off of the pressure and then you start petting it. when it does, then they can, you know, put one [00:48:00] to the other. But I had never really thought of it in terms of you do have to teach a horse what positive reinforcement means.

And I personally, I don't do food positives. It's, it's pets, man. A horse, a horse does not seek out positive praise or R plus rewards naturally. They don't, they're not like a dog. The dog will look at you and go, okay, what do I get? If, how do I get that treat? How do I get that treat? What do I have to do?

What do I have to do? The horse is just like, if you don't give me that food, I'm going to plow you down. I will kick you harder if you don't give it to me, unless you prove that you're a tougher horse. Right. Right. They're not like, Oh, master, what could I do to get you to give me that? You know, they're not wired that way.

They have no understanding of that. The only even like relative piece of that wiring that you can even kind of correlate, and it's not positive reinforcement is like if you can, if you have a horse that's already playful and you can turn your lessons into [00:49:00] into playful type sessions, they will learn faster.

And that's about as close to natural positive reinforcement you're going to get. But you still have to have pressure and release because in the interim, they're wired for peace. Like, for fleeing and for peace. They want peace and they want to be left alone. Correlating your peace with some sort of positive reinforcement, then that's cool.

But when you're just teaching a horse to come at you for food, because treats are dropping out of you, that's funny. I know. Maybe that's all they do. And when the horse doesn't get the, you know, the food they want, then they end up kicking these people in the face. There's videos of it all over YouTube.

It's true. They just nail them. They're like, well, I didn't get the food I wanted. BAM! I think it's quite dangerous, like, I would not choose to do Liberty work myself, because the stuff that I've seen looks terrible. Looks quite dangerous to me and the horses look very unhappy.

And like I said, [00:50:00] I did it when I was in junior high and high school because I was an idiot. And, and I turned it into a kind of a party trick series, you know, but, um, and, and he was a little scary periodically when we were doing that stuff.

I mean, he would. Do the bluff charging, and um, you know, all of that. And, and I didn't quite know how to handle it at the time. But I just sort of ignored it. Because I was like, he wouldn't hurt me. Now I know he would, he totally would. Um, you know, not, not trying to kill me. But they do try to intimidate, because that's how they interact with each other.

And it's That's actually pretty natural. You know, speaking of natural, um, I mean, but I have like another takeaway that a lot of people don't think about and I'll just kind of make this point because the, the entire horse industry needs to understand this. Nowhere in nature does one horse give to another [00:51:00] horse, they only take, they only take resources, they do not give.

A dog or a wolf will give, right, they will take food from a source. and bring it back to the pack. Bring it back to a mother wolf nursing pups in a den. They will give. Cats will give. Horses nowhere in nature give to another horse. A mare will run her foal off a bowl of grain. That's true.

 Like, yeah, they only take, they only know how to take resources. They do not give resources to another horse. That's a really don't understand it. So apprehension, you know, that doesn't mean liberty can't be. fun and kind of worth doing every now and then in the right situation, but you have to also be realistic.

And like Brenna keeps saying, use your brain, um, and realize that this is not a [00:52:00] magical mystical thing. This is something that is a science. There's a science to it. And, um, you, Need to abort if your horse is not the kind of horse that can do it safely. Um, right. And there's a lot of those horses, very, very conscious of maintaining, uh, boundaries and respect while you're doing it.

Yep. Okay, let's move on. Um, so let's just do this one quickly. 'cause this one's, not as interesting. But small horses cannot carry big riders. What do you think? There's a there's a general rule that people need to have Especially people who are inexperienced. The general rule is 20 percent 20 percent of their body weight people.

So Um, you know if you are a 300 pound person, you need to have a big ass draft horse 

like, so that being said, confirmation plays a big part. Like you've got a horse with a really strong loin and a long hip. [00:53:00] And a deep girth and a strong shoulder and solid legs, solid, good, you know, shaped legs and good feet. There's, you know, a horse can carry more than 20 percent of its weight, especially if the person knows how to ride, because obviously, the way you ride is the difference between carrying a dead weight and something that can hold its weight and while you're carrying it, right?

So, I mean, there are pieces and parts to this that can vary for sure. But, um, it, it does depend on the horse, but as a general rule, I don't think anybody should be riding a horse that they are more than 20 percent that horse's weight. But you're right. Like the, um, the biggest piece is, is balance and structure.

Right. And, um, there's some situations like in the cutters where. There's little horses and big guys, right? And, um, the horses are getting bigger in the cutting overall. They're starting to kind of breed for a little bit more size than they have in the past, but you still have little, little ones. And, um, a lot of big, [00:54:00] tall men that are trainers.

But the thing is, is those guys are very athletic writers. Usually they are able to get out of the horse's way. In key moves, you know, they're, they're not, you think a lot of people who don't know cutting very well think that people just sit there. No, you, if you just sit there, your horse is not going to do very well.

Um, they're going to fall off or you're going to fall off. Exactly. Most of these guys are manipulating their body in ways. during every move to free up that horse maximally, right? And, um, and so that takes immense pressure off those little horses. And that's the other thing too, is those little horses are almost always built really well.

You don't see high level cutters that have really terrible, egregiously horrible confirmation. Um, you know, and so that's huge, but at the same time, those guys aren't riding those horses. On the ranch all day. They're riding them for [00:55:00] very short periods of time. Well, and I think it's important to define too, because, uh, I mean, cutting horse blood, especially in the quarter horses, like it's.

It's gotten almost generic, right? There's a lot of cutting bread horses out there that look like llamas and um, So when you say cutters, do you mean actual cutters in the cutting pen? Yeah cutting bread horses? No, I don't mean something Yeah, I don't mean horses that have those bloodlines. I mean horses that are successfully doing it actually doing it.

Just use your common sense. I mean, come on, come on. If you're a balanced rider, I sold a horse over the summer, and it was a smaller horse, and I had these gals come to look at it, and I thought, oh god, there's no way. There's just no way. I mean, this is a big old gal, and this girl got on this mare one rotor better than me.

I didn't get along very good with this mare, but rotor better than me. She balanced up there so [00:56:00] nicely and had the most lovely seat and just was great. It was perfect. She bought the mirror, took her home. It was, it was a perfect fit. So, you know, like you said, this all depends on how much of an athlete you are and just, just use your common sense.

Some of these cutters are, are just, they're so soggy and they're so strong. And it doesn't really matter how tall they are. I mean, if they're strong enough to do it, then they're strong enough to do it. If everything you step on goes crippled in three months, maybe you need to think about losing some weight if you're a big, fat person.

Right? Bigger horse. Like, I mean, just use your common sense, you know? Well, and if you're looking for a draft horse, Find one that's sound. Don't find one that has DSLV or something. You're going to have the same result. So, in common sense, it's not a flower that grows in every garden.

Every subject on here is consider the horse. Yep. Consider the horse [00:57:00] first. If you're going to use head setters and draw reins, let's consider the horse. Which doesn't mean don't do it. Right. It doesn't mean don't do it. Be smart. Yes Maybe what you thought you wanted is still what you want, but right of it being your end game right now It's your goal because you're not there.

Um, your horse is there to be your best friend and therapy session how selfish right , like that's just some egotistical bullshit right there. That is a wonder. That is horses and that's why we're all so mentally ill about it.

Right. Because we, we all love that piece of them. And also it's our responsibility to be horsemen first and stewards to them first. Yeah. It is. It is not that horse's responsibility to take on your emotional baggage. And you need to be right with yourself before you can ever be right with the horse. [00:58:00] Yep.

That any, anybody with or without kids would think that a parent like that would be a terrible parent. So why are we doing it with horses or why do we think it's okay to do that with horses? Um, it's just, it, it, it makes no sense and it is only toxic.

Your, your kid's not your personal counselor. Your horse isn't there to take on your emotional baggage. Leave all that stuff at home and You know, when you step in the arena, you're a horseman. It's not a church. It's not for politics. It's not for any of that. When you step in the saddle, you should just be present and be a horseman.

And some of that good stuff happens secondarily, right? Happens. Also, but when we seek that primarily, that's where we go off, go off the rails. So, okay, next, next thing, this is the last one. There are no bad horses, only bad riders. I have heard some of the biggest names out there in training. Well, mostly clinicians say this, and I think it's all how you [00:59:00] raise them.

Oh gosh. I raised one that was perfect in every area, except for how she was born. Everything worked out great. She was handled right. She was not imprinted. Um, she was treated just like one should be treated, was genetically perfect and was, a demon Right out of the womb. Absolutely. I, I had one, these people called me on it.

Um, it was a police officer. He called me and he said, I heard that you're the trainer to call when I need something fixed. And when I was younger and when I was into fixing stuff like that, I was a little wild and I said, okay, what do you got? And he said, well, I bought this mare for my daughter. Um, they got it from kind of a trail riding company that lets you, uh, yeah.

travel to their place. It's like a dude ranch and you can travel there and they'll put you up. You can stay there and you can trail ride their horses. And at the end of the deal, if you want to [01:00:00] buy some of the horses, you can. Well, they really liked this mare. It was a Cremello Tennessee Walker and her name was Sugar.

Oh, great. And, uh, the little girl got the horse home. The daughter was like 12 or 13, I think, but she was graining her up at the hitch and rail. And this mare, just unprovoked for no reason at all, reared up and come down on top of her head with her teeth. And the kid had to be flight for life. Um, she needed staples in her head.

They were way up in the mountains, so, you know, pretty far from any civilization, which is why she had to get on a helicopter. But, so, you know, the dad's real mad. He's gonna go out there and teach this horse a lesson. And, uh, she broke his leg. Um, same thing. Kind of, kind of just reared up and got him down on the ground and just whipped to him like a stallion with, with her, the front of her, uh, cannon bones.

You know, and this is where they rode. They rode her around for a whole week down [01:01:00] at this, uh, this dude ranch. And so I took her home and she, she tried to attack me just trying to get her on the trailer and I had to stop and go get a flat halter and a stud chain and a helmet and, uh, this is a long drawn out story of me trying to fix her and at the end of the day, I couldn't and we euthanized her, you know, and humans, I don't, I don't think humans did this to this horse.

She was very, She was treated very kindly most of her life. She had no trauma. She, the safest place around her was on her back. If you saddled her and got on her, you're fine. But if you're trying to lead her out to a pasture and you turn your back on her, and it's not like she'd warn you either, the mare's not frustrated.

She's not your penny. She's not like, Oh, I'm mad about this or mad about that. Just kind of out of nowhere. She just decided it was time to kill you. Just today's a good day to die. The horse has had a screw loose. She did. She really, [01:02:00] she really had a loose and we had a lot of vetting done on her. This guy spared no expense.

I mean, he had her fully insured. We had her at vets. We had her at CSU. We did surgeries. We spayed her. Uh, when I tell you, we did everything to try to not, not euthanize this mare and none of it did a damn thing. At the end of the day, we started to kill her. Yeah. I mean, I've gone through horses that, um, you know, I've started them from the ground up.

Or, you know, like just from the ground up, like one was a bull that I had out of a mare that I had had several folds out of already, and these were all nice folds, different stallion personally with all the horses I've ridden. I do believe that the stallion does. You know, is responsible for the innate personality the horse is born with.

And that's the thing people need to remember is horses are born with an innate personality. They're not born blank. Right. With an innate personality. And some of those personalities [01:03:00] are damn dangerous. And it does happen. Period. I think too often, we don't realize when we're training through pain.

Um, I think way, way, way too often, these horses are so stoic and God made them that way. God made these horses stoic. He made them to where they are really good at hiding pain. They don't show pain very often and you have to be really present, really in touch with these horses to see subtle signs of pain.

Um, and I think all too often we're training through pain and we're not realizing it and you know, a lot of times, I wasn't training through pain when I'm not saying it wasn't even decided to charge me in the pasture. I think I had, you know, a handful of horses that people brought to me that they said, you know, these are terrible.

These are Bronx and these are this they're spooky or this that and the other. Right. [01:04:00] And we ended up euthanizing them for behavioral problems, but at the end of the day, I really think that a lot of those horses were, you know, somewhere in their body just wasn't right. And that's very, that happens a lot.

And, but what we have to realize too is that, there's both, right? There's sometimes there's, there's horses that have some kind of physiological reason for it or training reason for it. And then there's horses that are born that way because that's just how they're wired. Right. And, um, and either way, somebody still has to take the risk of fixing of trying to fix that horse.

And it's still a bad horse in the sense that it's dangerous and it's not doing. sane horse things, right? And, and so we, we don't need to shy away from that word necessarily bad because at the time it is a bad horse. And it, and, and if nobody wants to take the risk of trying to help that horse, um, that should [01:05:00] be okay with us ethically.

Orally, not maybe not comfortable, you know, it never should feel okay in the sense of comfort. I mean, we should always feel sorry for the horse to some extent that it is just a fact of life, but it's a fact of life. Yeah, exactly. I feel like it's, it's my responsibility. If I get one through my place. That I can't fix.

I'm now responsible. And I've always felt that way. Um, I won't let them leave. Uh, the only way they're gonna leave here is on a rendering truck. Um, I, I won't let them leave and I've fought tooth and nail for that my, you know, my whole career. I've had a handful of horses that we euthanized for behavioral problems, because if they're here and I can't fix them and not to be egotistical, maybe somebody else can.

But do I want to put that person in a situation where they could get killed? Exactly. It's not worth it. It's not worth it to me. There's a million other [01:06:00] horses. Go save another one. That's a mental case. This one is not leaving here. It's not leaving here. It's going to die here. That's the deal. And so I think, you know, all of us are kind of responsible when we do run across those horses to make sure that we're not sending them off to another trainer to, to get them hurt.

 Um, okay. Well, I think that is enough. That was some good stuff. And definitely some controversial stuff, but Yeah. That's good because it's, it's things that people need to think through and really confront reality about. So, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Thank you.