Life Pivots: Suzanne Roske

In this conversation, Mary Schaub interviews Suzanne Roske, founder and CEO of Vamonos Executive Coaching, discussing her journey of personal transformation, the writing of her book, and the importance of self-discovery. They explore themes of vulnerability, trust, and the challenges of making significant life changes, particularly during the COVID-19 pandemic. Suzanne shares insights on the energy audit process, the cycles of renewal in life, and the work she does to help others figure out who they were always meant to be. 

Key Takeaways:

💡Personal transformation often requires courage and vulnerability.

💡Writing can be a powerful tool for self-discovery.

💡Early work experiences can shape our relationship to work 

💡Midlife reflections can lead to significant life changes.

💡Burnout can be a signal to reevaluate one's path.

💡COVID-19 prompted many to reassess their life choices.

💡Trusting others is essential for personal growth.

💡Acts of kindness can foster deeper connections.

💡Energy audits help identify what drains or energizes us.

💡Life transitions often follow cycles of renewal.

Quotes:

🎤"Your heart knows the way. Run in that direction" - Rumi (quoted by Suzanne)

🎤"Everyone is a single entity. You have one life. You generally are not one person when you walk into the office and another person when you get home."

🎤"If you start from your destination and you are one degree off on your path... in 60 miles, you will miss your intended destination by two miles."

🎤"A lot of times we try to make everybody a pink pony that wears a paper cone... I want everybody to be their shiny pink unicorn or whatever color unicorn self you want to be because that's when we all shine."

🎤"Withholding that request for help or that outreach really is a little bit selfish sometimes."

Keywords: 

✅career change ✅sabbatical ✅executive coaching ✅personal transformation ✅ work-life balance ✅burnout recovery ✅life purpose ✅professional development  ✅ Fractals of Change

🙏 Thanks to: @suzanneroske, @vamonos-executive-coaching

Show Links:

🔥I Should Be Doing This: An Adult Gap Year

🔥Hudson Institute of Coaching

🔥Michael Hudson

Disclaimer:

***The information, opinions, and recommendations presented in this Podcast are for general information only and any reliance on the information provided in this Podcast is done at your own risk. This Podcast should not be considered professional advice.***

Credits: Written, produced and hosted by: Mary Schaub. Theme song written by: Mary Schaub

Contact: FractalsofChange@outlook.com  

Website: M. Schaub Advisory (MSA)

Transcript

Mary Schaub (00:11)

Okay. I'm so excited today because I'm talking to Suzanne Roske. She's the founder and CEO of Vominos Executive Coaching and the author of the book, I'm Supposed to Be Doing This, An Adult Gap Year, which talks about the sabbatical she took and the decision to make profound changes in her life. Suzanne, you are inspiring and I'm so grateful to have an opportunity to talk to you today. Welcome.

Suzanne (00:32)

Mary, it is my pleasure to be here. Thank you for having me and I'm so excited for this discussion.

Mary Schaub (00:38)

We met about a year ago, a year or so ago through some mutual friends in the consulting world. I think our friends knew we were change experts professionally, but I think they invited us to connect because they knew that we were both really interested in personal transformation. And I remember in our little networking call to find you so open and generous in sharing your story with me.

And it made me think later on as I was thinking about this podcast that you would be a perfect guest. Because what I'm trying to do here and what I've tried to boil down to the sentence is you are the change you in the world are waiting for. And I wanted it to be in an interview format with courageous people like yourself who have embraced this idea. And your whole story really is a great case study about someone finding their purpose.

So I read your book over vacation around New Year's, which was perfect timing, not just because we had this interview and we're recording in late January, but because it was a very, very entertaining book. I mean, I knew it would be a good book because you're obviously very smart and I'm sure very perfectionistic, but it was so entertaining. You are a very, very good writer and you're funny as hell.

and you're so open and vulnerable in the book. I experienced it almost as if we were sitting down over coffee and you're telling me your story. Like I could hear you in my ear. And aside from the lessons in the book, which we'll talk about, I just really enjoyed it as a story about you and your family and it was honest and sweet. Had you ever written anything like this before?

Suzanne (02:22)

No, my writing experience had been really just in the professional world. Like I could write briefs, I could write expert reports. It really helped me. had some great mentors along the way from a writing perspective who really taught me like every sentence had to stand on its own. But I never...

I call myself an accidental author because I never wanted to write a book. It was not like this thing like, I'm gonna put it on the bucket list and one day I'm gonna write a book. Never in my life did I think I was gonna write a book. And when I sat down to start the book, I intended it to be like a LinkedIn article of like, here's what I learned while I was on a sabbatical. And I kind of joke with people that once I got started,

Mary Schaub (03:03)

Mm-hmm.

Suzanne (03:07)

got to the length that if I had submitted it as an article to like the New Yorker or the Atlantic, they would have said, this is too long, we don't know what to do with it. And from that point, it just kind of like, it just evolved into a book.

Mary Schaub (03:22)

I think it's the perfect delivery for all of the other stuff,

the beautifully accessible way in which you wrote it, I think actually makes it even more valuable. I wanna go back a bit into your origin story. I think you and I had similar backgrounds, but you keep me honest. You also came from a working class family where work ethic was revered and you work in your parents' hardware store at, is this right, eight years old?

Suzanne (03:38)

you

Yeah, was, so it's the hardware store is still in my family. And my grandfather started it in 1945. So when I was eight, my grandfather came and said to me like, you are now old enough if you are not in some sort of class, like a swimming class.

you will be working at the store because all of this like you know playing around in the summer is just for the birds, Suzanne. You have to get into the store and so that's how I started working at the store with my grandparents and my parents.

Mary Schaub (04:20)

I started working at 14, but I used to hang out at my dad's gas station when I was eight. And sometimes I'd help the guys pump gas. I loved it. I had a blast. It was fun. I love the smell of gasoline for some really bizarre reason. Us Gen Z folks had a very different experience. I could imagine the labor laws today if you saw an eight-year-old pumping gas.

Suzanne (04:40)

I know.

Mary Schaub (04:41)

But my sense is that this exposure to work at a very formative age might've had an impact on maybe your incredible drive to get into this high performing career. Can you speak more to that?

Suzanne (04:55)

Yeah, I think so. I mean, I really was one of those kids that when there was an external reward that was put in front of me, whether that was a good grade or a $10 bill at the end of the week from my grandfather, I was the performer who would go get it. And so I think that translated of that personal motivation within me of to please other people.

to be regarded as doing a good job, I love to be the best at things, really propelled me forward. And then you combine that kind of that internal wiring with societal expectations around performance and kind of, know, as a kid that the higher the grade, the greater the praise. I really performed for that all the time. And it really did set me up well for college and then for getting into a

in management consulting because there's always the next carrot that is hung in front of you that you can go after.

Mary Schaub (05:55)

for me, I think I found it that very comforting to know what the rules were to be good, because I wanted to always be good. I think that was driven by some other things for me. And yet I translated and projected that into my career to make it about, okay, I'll be a good girl because, you know, I nailed this project and I sold or sold this project, whatever the task was. It made it very definable for me.

Suzanne (06:00)

Yeah.

and I love lists. So when they gave you a list that said, in order to be promoted or to get the next big thing, here are all of the things you had to do, I was like, great rubric. I'm going to go through and I'm going to take it off. And then what I would do is I would add on a couple of my own for good measures to be like, well, I did all of that and then some. So yeah, where do my God, extra credit.

Mary Schaub (06:38)

Extra credit.

I love quotes. Speaking of lists, in my OneNote, I have one page. It's just like I capture quotes. And I took quite a few from your book. You have some amazing quotes in here. I wanna start with the quote from your introduction, which is from George Eliot. And it's quote, it's never too late to be what you might have been. And I mean, I was just so excited opening your book and I'm hit with that quote because it's just everything we're talking about.

Suzanne (07:05)

Yeah, I think that so many people and I mean, I was part of this group of people like for the longest time they believe or I believe there was one path in front of us. And, you know, when I got onto the management consulting, moving sidewalk, that was the path.

I mean, I kind of just said like, this is what I'm going to do. And I didn't stop to look around. And I think the beauty is that there's so much out there. you know, those little books that we had when we were kids to choose your own adventure. Like the book is not written. We get to choose our own adventure. And that's what I ultimately did was figured out what was going to be the next adventure for me. And it wasn't too late.

Mary Schaub (07:52)

And it's interesting because that process of reflecting, I think many people today, certainly after COVID are reevaluating their relationship to work. even the younger generation, which usually, you know, we'll talk about midlife crises, but like sometimes that happens later in your life. But I see even the younger generation questioning what their purpose is and what their path is. And sometimes I think it's because you're in a job you hate or it's a job that's not giving you what you need.

Suzanne (07:59)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Mary Schaub (08:18)

but you actually had the opposite. were in the job that everybody would want. It was great. I don't want to make it an evaluative statement that it's more courageous what you did, but certainly they call it the golden handcuffs, right? It's like things are so great, but you're still sort of locked into something very similarly to someone who might be locked into a job they hate, but you have all these other obstacles that are telling you why you should stay. And when you make partner, which is,

For those who don't know, it's a huge milestone in professional services. It's what everyone's going for. It's the pinnacle of success. But it doesn't mean that the grind is over either. And in the book, you quote the wonderful Brene Brown, again, speaking about midlife crises. And she says, quote, a time when you feel a desperate pull to live the life you want to live, not the one you're supposed to live. The unraveling is a time when you're challenged by the universe.

to let go of who you think you are supposed to be and embrace who you are. So I think for some people, there's this big life-changing event. know, maybe sometimes it's catastrophic, maybe it's health-related, or they just make one big jump. I've always found humorous the stories of the ex-pat who went to, I don't know, Turks and Caicos on vacation and then just never came back. They're just like working at a bar down there or a dive shop. But I think for most of us, that transformation is more gradual.

Suzanne (09:42)

Mm-hmm.

Mary Schaub (09:42)

And

I'm curious as to when the first beads of doubt start to arise for you.

Suzanne (09:47)

Hmm, that's a great question. And I think it relates to that, you know, I had the job that people strive for. It probably started to come. It is like this little whisper of a voice like my intuition kind of asking me very quietly in random moments, but it was before I made partner.

It was when I was kind of trying to do everything to please everyone, to show everybody I could do it. And every now and again, that little voice would pop up and I was like, really? This is it? This is what you're gonna do for the rest of your life? And because I knew what the next milestone was, I knew what that carrot was, it was dangling in front of me. As you said, I had this job that from the outside looking in was what people wanted.

Mary Schaub (10:22)

Hmm.

Suzanne (10:37)

I didn't feel I had the luxury to acknowledge that little voice because I was in the path that so many others wanted to be on that I just took that little voice and I pushed her back down into the box.

Mary Schaub (10:52)

Yeah, how dare

you? How ungrateful are you for...

Suzanne (10:55)

So

ungrateful. Who would you think you have at all? You have everything you have worked for. Why would you even think that? So I didn't even allow myself to contemplate what that voice was asking me. I just put it back in the box, locked it up, and tried to throw away the key. But it kept coming back. I had some serious bouts of burnout while I was going through the partner admission process.

But again, I just pushed through them because I have a huge part of me that is a pusher and achiever and a pleaser and like all those parts got together and we're like, just keep going, put your head down and chug, chug, chug like the little engine that could. And I didn't listen. And there were times when I really enjoyed what I was doing. So it was this balance of like, I wasn't miserable all the time. And there were times where I was learning stuff, I was helping people.

I was developing a team, I was doing really good stuff that I was proud of, and yet that voice kept coming up. And eventually I just couldn't ignore it anymore.

Mary Schaub (11:57)

I feel sometimes our strengths are our weaknesses. And for me, because I like you, I feel very tenacious and I'm just going to attack the problem and I'm going to persevere But if you're too focused on that, it's so easy to ignore that inner voice in your instincts or even your body.

it's not just beads of doubt, it starts to become more extensive debates in your head. And then the feelings kick in and they become conscious and you start to feel depressed and you go through some difficult times. And I'm wondering as difficult as they were if...

those difficult feelings in the depression weren't trying to help you. They're sending you a message on some less conscious level. You knew you weren't where you were supposed to be. And so you take a sabbatical, which you refer to as your adult gap year, and you move the family temporarily to Mexico. If you hadn't gotten that depressed, do you think you would have made this move? And I'm sure COVID's playing out at this time too. So I'm sure that that's a factor or maybe the straw that broke the camel's back for you.

Suzanne (12:56)

Mm-hmm.

think it was the straw that broke the back of the camel. It definitely wasn't the impetus. I think if there was depression, I didn't acknowledge it. There were these bouts of definite burnout situations and times where just frankly I had some suicidal ideation and I sought help from...

Mary Schaub (13:26)

you

Suzanne (13:27)

therapist, but I didn't tell anybody because I still put on the mask that everyone else could see. Really what happened is that during COVID, when I, like everybody else, got into my house and I looked around and I was like, my God, it is amazing that this place does not spontaneously combust four times a day. I had always just been away. I was either traveling for clients or at the office. I just assumed the house would be standing when I came home.

And the day that we got the email that indicated that our kids would not be going back to school, just like every other kid in the world, basically, that little voice that had been kind of like in the background for so long, she jumped up and screamed at the top of her lungs. You have to do better. I didn't know what better was at that time, but I knew in that moment I could no longer.

not listen and ignore that voice of intuition and wisdom that was inside of me. it just, similar to that quote from Brene Brown, I mean, it felt like it grabbed me by the shoulders and was like, woman, wake up and figure this out because things are just passing you by.

Mary Schaub (14:41)

Wow, there's so much, I think, strength in being able to listen to that, because I can imagine that on some conscious level, there's a choice to listen to that. And I'm wondering that there's some people who continue to push that down and it manifests itself in addictions and serious depression and

Suzanne (15:03)

Mm-hmm.

Mary Schaub (15:04)

in health issues, right? there's a lot of reasons why we should face this. And then there's so many reasons why we don't because it's so hard. And when people talk about change, whether it's a case study for corporate change in a professional environment or personal transformation, they often leave out the really hard parts because it's just not as sexy of a story. I call it the messy middle.

Suzanne (15:13)

Yeah, it's really hard.

you

Mary Schaub (15:52)

And what I loved about your book is that it doesn't gloss over the internal and external challenges you faced. And you discuss, for example, even just trying to leave the country to go to Mexico for the first time and all these things pop up. Your dad can't come and see you off. And then there's this whole story about your dog, Tilly, that I was so invested in, by the way. I love animals, my pets and animals. So I was very much emotionally in your shoes, imagining being at the airport.

You have your husband kids, the dog, all your luggage. You're moving to Mexico and they stop you and the dog. What's your mindset when you're encountering these challenges at this early stage?

Suzanne (16:32)

Yeah, there was a lot of doubt. And it was interesting because as I told people what we were planning on doing to take the three kids and my husband and the dog down to Mexico for up to a year, everyone kept saying like, you're so brave. I wish I could do that. And I felt anything but brave. I didn't know what I was doing. When we got to the airport and

they wouldn't let Tilly on at first. They were like, she's too big. And she was like a 20 pound dog, but she just has really long legs. And I just jumped into action because action for me is my safe space. Being still kind of toeing the line is not where I excel. Like I can marshal the troops and I can get people where they need to be.

and my husband sat with the people at American Airlines talking to them very calmly and quietly about Tilly and I immediately jumped into, okay, how do we get her qualified as an emotional support animal? Like in the moment, who do I need to talk to in this airport? So I sort of, anytime that doubt came up, I would...

do something. And what I've learned is that my propensity for action is because it masks, anxiety and discomfort. And so when I can get into action, I don't have to feel those uncomfortable feelings. So at the beginning, that was really my go-to mechanism of how I got through. And I had done that my entire life. I just hadn't realized it.

Mary Schaub (17:49)

100%.

I should say I am the exact same way doing versus feeling. And I remember one of the reasons I became attracted to Buddhism was in my, I think second or third year of college. I worked full-time and I went to school full-time, but I only had to work in the summers. And I remember the first summer,

where I'd wake up on Saturday morning and I didn't have anything to do. And I was freaked out. And it seemed odd that at 20 years old, I would be freaked out because I don't have to work or go to school. And I just thought, this isn't right. This isn't good. And I went to the library because I intellectualize everything. So that was what I'm still holding onto that. So I go to the library and I start to find some of these books about stillness and just...

sitting with what comes up and I was like, I don't do any of this. This is, there's something here for me. So thank you for sharing, I wanna note that the negative voices are not just coming from inside your head, but you'd gotten feedback also from various people in your life about your decision to take a gap year and move to Mexico. In the book you write,

people that you thought would question your choices were fully supportive, while some of the more adventurous folks questioned your judgment. But then at some point, you realize you don't need anyone's approval to make this move. That's fantastic. Is that sort of the moment of no return where you're locked, like that point you're locked in?

Suzanne (19:32)

Hmm. I think it was locked. It's an interesting question I think the moment that we were locked in was after the first day in Mexico where we all got on the internet and we said, can the kids do school? Can my husband work? And will the stability of the wifi support us?

Mary Schaub (19:52)

Yeah,

all comes down to the Wi-Fi, your story.

Suzanne (19:54)

Yeah. So once

that happened, like we were locked in, um, up until that point, like we got there on a Saturday night, basically on Sunday, I was like, do not unpack because like you can take like a few things out of your bag, but don't unpack everything because if Monday rolls around and this all crashes, I don't want to have to repack these bags to high tail it out of here. Oh yeah. Yeah.

Mary Schaub (20:16)

Wow, you're still so pragmatic, right? Even in the midst of it, that's amazing.

So I wanna read another great quote you have at the beginning of chapter six, it's from Chekhov and it's quote, you must trust and believe in people or life becomes impossible. This one gave me pause because it's so important and it's so relevant right now. I have a random story.

It's not as good as your story, but it's something that happened to me a few weeks ago. I'm in my apartment where they have these hotel carts so people can bring up their luggage and the groceries or whatever. And residents are supposed to bring the carts back down to the lobby when they're done bringing their stuff up. And of course, many people don't. You see them left in the hallway or people just shove them in the elevator because people are too lazy to bring them back down. So one night I'm on my way out and I'm waiting at the elevator. My neighbor, who I've never met,

Welcome to New York City, comes down the hall pushing one of these carts. And I remember feeling pleased, probably being a little bit judgmental, that she wasn't just leaving it in the hallway. I'm like, oh, well done. That's good. She's bringing it back. And I thought, well, well, shit, I'm heading out anyway. Why don't I save this woman a trip? So I simply offer to take it from her. And when I tell you, that this woman acted like I'd given her my Uber in the rain, she was...

gushing and thanking me endlessly and like still thanking me as the doors are closing. And the reason it struck me is because it made me realize how starved we all are for simple acts of kindness. And we've become so contentious and mistrustful and sort of paranoid with each other. Your move to Mexico requires you to trust and depend on people. In your opinion, what role does this mindset play?

in a personal or even a professional transformation.

Suzanne (22:08)

There's a lot, in our society, of value that is placed upon our personal reliance. Like that idea that we can do it ourselves, that we can kind of, you know, pull up ourselves up our bootstraps. there's all of these phrases about getting it done on your own. And we take that a lot of times into the workforce and you you are,

many times part of a team, but your performance is generally looked at individually. So you've got to look out for number one, which is what most people are doing. so it becomes very, like relationships have become very transactional. And that's not all relationships. Like I'm not trying to say everything is a transaction and there certainly are many exceptions to this rule. But there is, I think a seed at least for me of like, hmm.

What is somebody else trying to get out of this? What do I need to get out of this? And you're trying, even if you're trying to be in a position to help someone else, there's a little bit of matching that's going on. And I think when I got to Mexico and we started looking at, like, I just didn't know how to get stuff done. I could not tell the difference when I was in the market, when they would tell me that something was se senta or se tenta.

Mary Schaub (23:29)

Mmm.

Suzanne (23:29)

So 60

or 70, I had no idea. I would just hold pesos out, like for the woman behind in, you on the local market days for her to take my pesos and pray that she gave me the right change back because she spoke so quickly and I had no idea what she was saying. So I was just like, oh, here's the money. So, I mean, I had to trust from that perspective. I also just had to have a little bit of faith that this was going to work out.

Mary Schaub (23:42)

Wow.

Suzanne (23:58)

And I think that's how it manifests into larger transformations is that second guessing or not doing something because of a suspicion that it won't go right. Sometimes we just have to make that choice to move forward and do it with the best information that we have at the time. Recognize that some of our choices are going to be right and some aren't.

But when you can put that trust in other people, they love it. You know, I mean, everybody loves, and this is the thing is like when you ask people like what brings them great joy, one of the things is doing small favors for others. It brings people so much great joy. And yet, as individuals, we often withhold that, that ability for other people to have great joy because we want to be self-sufficient.

And so I've kind of flipped my mindset a little that withholding that request for help or that outreach really is a little bit selfish sometimes.

Mary Schaub (25:02)

It is. We have an abundance and sometimes we act like there's this scarcity model of kindness or compassion. And depending on your life story, asking for help might feel too vulnerable. It might feel scary. Certainly in environments you and I have worked, you want it to seem like the smartest person in the room. And so you felt like, someone's going to kind of file that little question away that you didn't know something. So there's all this vulnerability that comes with it.

The idea that if you're projecting that people are mistrustful, sometimes that becomes a dynamic in the relationship as well. Like there's an energy exchange versus you encountering someone, assuming they have the best interest at heart. know, Ronald Reagan famously said, trust, but verify. there is something about projecting some of those beliefs that people will sometimes give us what we expect.

And so if we're expecting that they're going to let us down or take advantage of us, they will. Now I've been in Italy and I've had, you know, a taxi driver, charge me ridiculous amounts. Those things are going to happen. so I think there's this broader philosophical view of, do you want to have a couple of those instances happen where maybe they take too many pesos out of your hand? Or would you rather have that 90, 95 % of the time?

you found you're building a relationship based on trust and connection.

Suzanne (26:24)

Well, and I also like myself a lot better just personally if I do extend that branch of trust to someone else. even, you know, it got to the point where we had to look and sort of suspend judgment. Like there is generally a reasonable, rational.

purpose of why someone does something. And we had to kind of give that benefit to people in Mexico because we didn't know. It wasn't the way we would have done something in the US. But when you peeled back why people were doing certain things, it made total sense. Like you would see, and I remember reading this story about it, you go through the countryside around Oaxaca and there were half built buildings.

two walls made out of concrete bricks. And you're like, why did someone only make half a house? That doesn't make any sense. Well, when you look to the rationale behind it is that it costs so much money to buy the bricks or the cinder blocks. And so as people get money, whether it's from working within the country or others are sending money back, they buy the materials.

but now you can't just leave the materials on your work site because somebody could come and steal them. So you build as you go and you build as you get money to buy the supplies. That doesn't make sense for how we think about building a house here in the US, but when you learn that, it's like, that makes so much sense. And just recognizing that there is usually a reasonable, rational purpose behind what people are doing.

helps so much to quiet some of that judge.

Mary Schaub (28:20)

I struggle with being judgmental. I don't know if it's growing up in the Northeast or just me, but even being judgmental with myself, I struggle with a lot. I'm trying to replace that with objective curiosity. I think that's what you're talking about. You see those houses and immediately there's all these judgmental words that come up in your mind.

I want to read another great passage from your book. I didn't like what I saw. I didn't like the way that I was living my life. I wasn't being authentic to myself and to what I believed in. I wasn't making a difference in the way I wanted to. I tried to introduce more of who I was into my work persona.

Sometimes the new approach was appreciated, but more often than not, I was met with skepticism. So I retreated to comfortable and safe projects. Back into the lane, everyone expected me to operate in. I pushed down thoughts about doing something different and stuffed the skills that made me unique into a box because I had experienced the downsides of trying to bring all of me to the office, not feeling heard, valued or seen.

Soon I became apathetic at work and frustrated at home. I took my frustration out on those I love most. So I mean, again, another wonderful bit of writing and very relatable. And it brings to mind for me the hero's journey and going back to the point of no return. Here at this stage, you talk about doing what you call an energy audit and you begin to think practically about making a permanent change.

Can you talk a little bit about this and how this personal experience now helps you to coach others?

Suzanne (29:59)

Yeah, I mean, I think it's, we go through life sometimes just on that autopilot where we're not thinking about what brings us energy, what drags us down. We just kind of look at the end of the day and we're like, I'm tired. Like that was my mantra all the time. Like I'm just tired.

I started learning about how to do an energy audit, of really just looking back, whether it's at a week or a month, what did you do throughout the day for this week? And then looking at, well, was I engaged? And a gas tank almost. Was my engagement full? Was my engagement towards the empty side? How much?

energy did it take for me to participate in this I thought about the big ticket items that I was doing and this one task that I had to do and it was kind of the crux of my job

I was not engaged the battery was depleted every single time. And I looked across the board and the things that I love to do that brought me energy were like these little kind of almost extracurriculars. They weren't the things that were part of the job. And I got done this energy audit and I kind of looked at it and I was like, well, holy moly, I'm not miserable. I'm not a miserable person.

Because that's what I had thought and I had personified to myself that I was just miserable and a curmudgeon and everybody was gonna have to get used to it and I was gonna have to get used to it. But when I had this objective piece of information, I was like, wait a second, I'm not a curmudgeon. I am just burnt out. My batteries are not getting recharged by things that I love to do throughout the day. And it was taking more energy.

and I was giving everything I had at the office. So when I came home, I was literally running on empty. so everybody got the empty of me, my kids, my husband, my friends, they got me on empty, which is kind of no fun. And that really changed the way I looked at things. We're not one thing. I'm not a curmudgeon.

I have times that like the curmudgeon tendency comes out in me, but I generally like to be a positive, energetic person. And when I can find those elements in my day and determine what I can put into them, that will recharge the battery. Even if it's in quick little spurts, that really helps. And that's what I work with a lot of my clients to do is to find what are those little pieces that are missing or

we're not focused enough on in your day and let's find some time for those so that you can balance out the things that sometimes have to get done. Like, look, the toilet is always gonna have to get cleaned. whatever that clean the toilet moment is in your life, you're gonna still have to take care of it. So how can we offset

the drag on the energy with something that's really positive and is going to help.

Mary Schaub (33:06)

What I'm hearing you say, we all have to do some work, but life shouldn't be miserable, right? We have this precious amount of time here. And there's a tipping point where it's not just the toilet or the cat box or a certain aspect of work that's difficult. I'm really unhappy in my life. And that's sort of the wake up call to, go find what I should really.

be doing. You talk in the book about life chapters and self-identity and the cycles of renewal that adults experience in the process of being comfortable with dropping old versions of yourself in order to evolve and progress to the next phase. I'd love to hear more about how those phases evolve and what they require of us and maybe what happens when we get stuck in the middle.

Suzanne (33:55)

Yeah, so I mean, just to give credit where credit is due, the cycles of renewal really comes from the Hudson Institute of Coaching and Frederick Hudson, who developed this way of thinking of that we kind of if we think about our life is a circle. And in the top

left quadrant, you kind of have this go for it phase where you are firing on all cylinders and you're learning new things and you're achieving your goals. And then as we move to the top right circle, and we all get to this no matter what it is, we kind of plateau. And we get into this little bit of a state of the doldrums. And so as we're in this doldrum state, most of us kind of create this mini transition. It's not big. It's a new project.

it's a new hobby, it's something that's going to spark that, I'm going to go for this again. And so we bisect the circle and we go back into go for it. And so we're doing this throughout our lives and most of it is totally unconscious. And then there are the times it's really quite infrequent where we have to drop from the doldrums down to the lower half of the circle. And so on the lower

right side of the circle just under the doldrums we get into a cocooning phase where we're really looking inward and we're thinking about who we are what we want what is important this is when you have to do the real work where you have to look and say what are my values what is going to be important what am i going to prioritize and cocooning can take a long time like if you are in a real period of

Figuring it out this transition. It's not quick And I think a lot of us want that quick fix and so we'll try to like do a mini transition as much as possible when what we really need to do is drop down and look inward and say Who am I what am I doing? Is this valuable? And then we come up and we go to the lower left hand side of the circle in this cycle where we're getting ready We're learning new skills. We're practicing new things and sometimes we pivot

or kind pendulum swing between getting ready and cocooning until we really are ready to take that step and launch back into go for it phase. And so we cycle through this many times in our life, whether it's a mini transition or a big transition. I think personally what, and what I work with a lot of clients to do is to say, as we're walking down, I'm going to go back to the moving.

sidewalk metaphor again, as we're on our moving sidewalk, I think there are waypoints in each of our lives that we need to stop and look around and say, is this the path that I want to be on? Because when we do that in small increments, whether it's at the beginning of the year or as we start looking for a new promotion, as we're thinking about a life change, you know, from a personal perspective,

Am I on the path that I want to be on? What are my values? What are my motivators? What is my purpose? And is the path I'm on aligned with those? And if we do it more often, we can make like these mini little corrections of what we need to do versus getting to the point further down the moving sidewalk where you look around and you're like, I don't even know how I got here.

and I don't want to be here anymore and you're making a 180 degree shift. And I think that's the real thing that I've taken away is it took me to get to a point where I had to make 180 degree shift because I hadn't looked around.

Mary Schaub (37:43)

if you're making these little micro changes that you're discussing, one, you're not too far off the path, as you said, but also it seems like you have a little more of the strength to face what's gonna be difficult anyway.

Suzanne (37:57)

Yeah, well, and it goes back to like those those small little adjustments make a big difference. So there's in like boating and nautical rules, there's the one in 60 rule. If you start a from your destination and you are one degree off on your path, which doesn't seem big, right? In 60 miles, you will miss your intended destination by two miles. That's how much one degree can change.

Mary Schaub (38:22)

Wow.

Suzanne (38:25)

your intended destination. what I'm suggesting is that every now and again, we make those little adjustments so that we're not off by one degree or two or three, because if you extrapolate that, you could really miss the mark. So what do you want for your life?

Mary Schaub (38:43)

I think that's what I've read articles of hospice nurses that interview people as they're dying. And one of the biggest regrets is that they start to have these thoughts and these reflections and it's too late. And I think that's really scary. Or you're sort of in the twilight of your life. Maybe you've always wanted to travel and now maybe that's gonna be more difficult because so much time has gone by. I think as a result of the energy audits and the work that you're doing,

you discover just how much you love working with people. Can you talk to us a little bit about Vominos and the work you do?

Suzanne (39:17)

Yeah, so you're right. When I kind of boiled it all down, everything that I had loved about the firm was working with people, was working with teams, was not the big institutional changes. And I really found that my passion and calling was around helping at that smaller kind of one-on-one or one-on-few.

intersection with folks. And so at Vomino's Executive Coaching, I'm really working with people that are either looking and saying, I'm not where I want to be.

How do I figure out what my purpose is? They're kind of down further on the moving sidewalk. And we're really trying to unwind and say, what are your values? What is most important to you? How do we get quiet and figure out how do you lean into your strengths? And then the other exciting part is with less tenured.

individuals who are I'm working with who are saying how do I really be authentic and we're I'm working with them to give them that muscle memory to allow them to make impactful decisions and changes so that they don't end up down the the moving sidewalk at some point like giving them skills to be able to say this is the path that I want to take and this is the type of leader I want to be and lead from a strengths perspective

Versus let me try to be just like everybody else So that's sort of the work that we do. There's a big component with teams around trust and communication having productive conflict But at the end of the day, I think it's allowing people to up their skills so they can be more effective and It's it's wonderful. It's wonderful when people find the gifts inside of themselves that have been there all along

We just had to move stuff out of the way and polish them a little and they can lean into those strengths.

Mary Schaub (41:16)

It's an invaluable investment in yourself, both personally and professionally. I feel like we're at a point now where people truly understand and appreciate how connected those things are, whether it's that you're very self-aware and you've done a lot of work on yourself so you can be a better leader to others because you kind of understand your shadows and your dynamics, or it's just making sure you're in the right place because ultimately you're going to be happier and more successful

when you're in the place that you're supposed to be. So this is the work you're doing and people who invest in themselves, in every area of their life.

Suzanne (41:53)

Well, everyone is a single entity. You have one life. You generally are not one person when you walk into the office and another person when you get home. If we can align those, it's going to be so much smoother to move forward. And you're so much more complete and balanced as an individual and bringing your strengths. And sometimes,

I work with people where we actually go away. I take people back to Oaxaca and we have retreats there where we can actually disconnect from all of the noise to find that person and make space. But it is an investment. It doesn't happen overnight. A lot of people I talked to in the beginning are like, I just want the house.

Like just give me the exercises to do. And I'm like, well, it's really a self exploration. We will get to the how, but we need to understand how you are working and what you've been doing consciously and subconsciously throughout your life. Cause some of those things have gotten you to where you are today, but maybe we're over leaning into those strengths and we need to find something that you have under utilized and turn that up.

So that's kind of the part that's really fun from an investment perspective and working with folks.

Mary Schaub (43:05)

It's like your life's purpose is to find your life's purpose. Like this is the work and why we're here. It's not can I do this online survey and it's gonna tell me what I'm supposed to do and then there's a link and I just do it. I mean, people spend their entire lives figuring this out.

Suzanne (43:08)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Right.

I'm dating myself here, but if it was just as easy as a Cosmo quiz, we all would have figured it out a long time ago.

Mary Schaub (43:24)

my goodness. I was gonna

say that and then I said, no one's gonna get that. I'm so glad you said it. Thank you. It's exactly it. So changing gears a little bit, lightening things up. I wanna ask you about birds. So I read in the book that you're afraid of birds, which I wanted to ask you about. My aunt was afraid of birds and she always said it was because she watched Alfred Hitchcock's The Birds when she was too little. During COVID, I...

Suzanne (43:36)

Okay.

Mary Schaub (43:48)

got really into birds, it must be a middle-aged thing. I never noticed birds before. And then now all of a sudden I wake up and I put treats out for them. I put hot water in their bird bath in the winter time. Many of them know me now. They come out looking for food, but it doesn't sound like you'd appreciate a flock of noisy blue jays screaming at you for peanuts every morning as I do.

Suzanne (44:10)

Okay, so I grew up at the beach. My family, the hardware store we have is on a barrier island. So there are always seagulls around. And I just remember, you know, being sent outside to eat a peanut butter sandwich and like putting the sandwich up and the seagull coming down and like flapping its wings on my face to take the sandwich.

At the same time, and my mother denies this, but I swear to God it's true, she would say, don't touch bird feathers because you could get a disease and die. So I had these situations where I'm being attacked by a bird. I think I could get a disease and die. The other day, last week, we went.

my family and I, went to Disney World and we're walking and all of these birds like kerfluffle around me and I'm like, this is supposed to be the happiest place on earth.

Mary Schaub (45:00)

Okay, that makes a lot of sense. That makes a lot of sense. it New Jersey? Did you grow up in New Jersey? Okay, I'm from Montville, New Jersey, which is Northwest New Jersey.

Suzanne (45:05)

I grew up in New Jersey, yeah.

So I'm from down near Cape May.

Mary Schaub (45:11)

Oh, okay, yeah, I grew up, my aunt had a house in Stone Harbor, 104th Street, that's where her house was, it's gone now. Oh my goodness, isn't this crazy?

Suzanne (45:16)

I'm on 102nd.

we've probably seen each other on the same basin and you probably know the hardware store then. Yeah.

Mary Schaub (45:26)

Like is it on Main Street?

my goodness, right by the, or there's a candy shop there and then the Five and Dime across the street. my God, this is so exciting.

Suzanne (45:30)

Yep. Yep.

Yep, that's hardware store that started it all.

Mary Schaub (45:36)

I

I want to ask you about, and I'm going to butcher this pronunciation. Is it Alabrije? And okay.

Suzanne (45:42)

Yeah, you got it. I'll agree. Hey.

Mary Schaub (45:44)

And I'd like you to explain what that is and the concept of tonus.

Suzanne (45:48)

Yeah, so an alabrige is a, it's a kind of an artistic rendition of an animal that is intricately painted. if you've ever seen the movie, the Disney movie, Coco, the little dog, the Diego dog that becomes like, he gets all colorful and like there's the big, I think it was probably a jaguar that's or cougar.

Those are alabrīhēs. They come from Oaxaca, it's predominantly where alabrīhēs are made, although you'll see them all over Mexico, of these brightly colored, intricately painted animals. Now, the history of them in the Zapotec community is that each alabrīhē represents an animal that is your tona, or your spirit animal.

So depending upon your birth year and your birth month within the Zapotec calendar, you are assigned a tona, which is the animal that protects you. And then they translate the tonas into a physical alabrige form and you can buy them. There's now my family has a, I'm no longer allowed to go buy more alabriges because I just find them to be so, so beautiful.

Mary Schaub (47:03)

I want to quote your book you wrote within the Zapotec culture. Hummingbirds are considered symbols of good luck, bringing good intentions from one person to another in both life and death. They represent light and joy. They lift others up to see the good and sweetness in life. They are incredibly agile with amazing speed and stamina and are fierce protectors, which is why they can travel between the living and the spirit world. And so

You are a hummingbird, is that right?

Suzanne (47:35)

Yeah, can you

imagine my shock and horror when the artist told me that my tona was actually a bird?

Mary Schaub (47:43)

And yet that description, I think, and as I'm getting to know you, seems like a beautiful and apt representation of your spirit and your character and the work that you're doing. It sounds like you found your icky guy, You're working in a job that you love, that you're good at, and you're also contributing.

the world in a positive way. You're helping others to become who they might have been.

Suzanne (48:10)

Yeah, yeah, it is. At first, I think I was a little bit shocked when.

And Helico told me that I was a hummingbird. And I looked at the rest of my family. My twins are deer. My husband is an armadillo. And that's a protector. My youngest daughter is the jaguar. She is, which is like the fiercest, most revered animal within the Zapotec kind of tona spirit. And then I got this little hummingbird. And as you said, as I found out like really what it meant, I was like, that kind of is me.

And I think you're right, that intersection of what I love, what I'm good at, what the world needs, if everybody needs to figure out who they were meant to be and how they can shine. I used to work with some folks at the management consulting firm and we talked about our pink unicorn skills.

and that a lot of times we try to make everybody a pink pony that wears a paper cone. And I'm like, no, I want everybody to be their shiny pink unicorn or whatever color unicorn self you want to be because that's when we all shine. But we need to figure out what that is.

Mary Schaub (49:27)

Beautiful. I think, well, I'm grateful for your courage to go through the process. I think sometimes when we think about personal development and this transformation that we've been talking about today, some people might cynically look at it as being selfish or self-indulgent, but I actually believe it's a duty to find this out because you're going to contribute to the world in a more authentic and in better way.

And that's what you're doing and you've done. And so I'm grateful and inspired by your courage and so thankful for you being here today. So I want to end by a little segment I'm calling the Protagonist's Questionnaire, which was inspired by French journalist Bernard Pivot and the wonderful late James Lipton, in parentheses, read ripped off from James Lipton.

Suzanne (50:19)

You

Mary Schaub (50:21)

A couple of questions. First one, what person or people first showed you your own power?

Suzanne (50:27)

Hmm, my pop-ups bake.

Mary Schaub (50:29)

What film do you find most inspiring?

Suzanne (50:32)

The Goonies.

Mary Schaub (50:33)

What is your favorite character from literature or film?

Suzanne (50:36)

Harry Potter.

Mary Schaub (50:37)

What song do you play to psych yourself up?

Suzanne (50:40)

Mr. Blue Sky by the Electric Light Orchestra.

Mary Schaub (50:43)

What is your favorite comfort food?

Suzanne (50:46)

a Philly cheesesteak with American cheese. If I can get it with whiz, I will get it, but just steak and cheese on an Amaroso roll. I know.

Mary Schaub (50:56)

That's so South Jersey.

What do you do to unwind, self-soothe, or remind yourself not to take life too seriously?

Suzanne (51:06)

I can get myself going just laughing at like a joke I will tell myself and I can't even speak and it's usually like the most cringe-worthy dad joke but it'll just set me off and it's in those moments that I feel so alive.

Mary Schaub (51:24)

Beautiful. What sound fills your heart with joy?

Suzanne (51:28)

My kid's laughing.

Mary Schaub (51:29)

One of the questions is, what is your spirit animal? We already know that one. What is your favorite quote?

Suzanne (51:35)

Your heart knows the way. Run in that direction by Rumi.

Mary Schaub (51:39)

I love Rumi. And finally, how do you wish to be remembered?

Suzanne (51:44)

Mmm. Wish to be remembered as a good cook. Someone who brings people together. Someone who sees the good in people and helps them find that within themselves.

Mary Schaub (51:57)

Well, that's how I think of you today, Suzanne. So I think you're gonna achieve that. Thank you so much for sitting and talking with me today. I'd love you to come back whenever you want and tell us about your continued journey and all the great work you're doing at Vamonos And I highly recommend your book, I'm Supposed to Be Doing This. It's a great read and very inspiring for everybody who's trying to figure out who they're meant to be. Thank you.

Suzanne (52:20)

Mary, thank you so much for having me. This has been wonderful.