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Hot Copy & Shower Thoughts: Business Truths You Need to Hear with Emelie Sanders, Queso-Fueled Copy Genius

• Caitlan Siegenthaler • Season 1 • Episode 81

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Episode 81: "Say the damn thing!"- Emelie Sanders

In this episode of Return, Caitlan Siegenthaler is joined by Emilie Sanders. Emelie is the wip-smart, queso-loving copy strategist behind Pass the Queso. From flipping thrifted clothes to flipping the script on how we write and sell, Emilie brings the kind of wisdom we all wish everyone had on the internet.

They get into everything from motherhood and marketing to why clarity beats cleverness—and how the best copy doesn’t try to sound smart, it just sounds like you. If your messaging feels a little “meh,” your brand voice is on mute, or you’ve got 27 abandoned email drafts in your notes app… this episode will hit. Plus, you might lol so hard your cat will wonder what is really going on in your headphones.

Book your discounted Human Design reading with Caitlan here. [First come, first served and capped at 3 people so don't sleep.]

What You'll Learn in This Episode:

  • Why clarity in messaging beats cleverness
  • How to use humor in your copy without losing your edge
  • The underrated power of iteration (and what it really looks like)
  • Why building a brand you like matters more than “the algorithm”
  • How Emily uses productized newsletters to grow her list (and income)
  • What to prioritize as a mom, entrepreneur, and human with limited hours

Key Takeaways:

  • Iteration is the heartbeat of a growing business
  • “Say the damn thing”—authenticity always wins
  • You don’t need to be everywhere; you need to be clear
  • Branding is an inside job
  • Let your messaging evolve as you evolve

Chapters:
00:00 – Introduction to Emily Sanders and Her Journey
02:52 – From Reselling to Copywriting: The Evolution
05:59 – The Importance of Iteration in Business
08:58 – Finding Your Unique Voice in Copywriting
11:49 – The Power of Humor in Marketing
14:43 – Building a Brand: Pass the Queso
17:47 – Copywriting Tips for Beginners
20:44 – The Role of Community in Business
23:32 – Final Thoughts and Key Takeaways
26:48 – The Power of Direct Communication
30:51 – Crafting Compelling Emails
36:08 – The Art of Productized Newsletters
40:53 – Balancing Motherhood and Entrepreneurship
46:47 – Returning to Yourself: Self-Care and Identity


Links & Resources:

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Caitlan Siegenthaler (00:00.738)
Hello everyone, welcome back to another episode of Return Podcast and a YouTube channel now, which is very exciting. I am freaking excited today because I have Emily Sanders on the podcast and Emily is a messaging and sales copy strategist and the head honcho of past the queso. And when she's not screaming all over the interwebs about how clear is greater than clever is actually bullshit.

She's helping creative folks write faster, sales copy without sacrificing humor or conversion, and her emails are the best, her brand is hilarious. Emily, welcome to the show, thanks for being here.

Emelie Sanders (00:39.729)
Thank you, what an intro. The emphasis was on all the right words.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (00:45.326)
yes, trying to nail that copy. So excited to have you. And I've been wanting to have you on the show because I have been in your world for like a little while now, but your emails always make me LOL. The nanny went to jail one, which we'll get into was like iconic, honestly. But when I was prepping for this episode, I was like, wait, she started with an enter.

entrepreneurship journey with a clothing company? Tell me more about that.

Emelie Sanders (01:17.287)
Yeah, not necessarily a clothing company, but I started reselling used clothing online. Are you familiar with that? Kind of, that was kind of a thing. whenever I, so my oldest, was, I had her whenever I was 18 and I was like, I better get my shit together. I was a hot mess. You think I'm a hot mess now? You have no idea. And so I was like,

Caitlan Siegenthaler (01:26.293)
Yes!

Caitlan Siegenthaler (01:35.085)
Okay.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (01:38.528)
Yes.

Emelie Sanders (01:46.333)
I tried to go back to work and then I was like, wait, I'm working to pay daycare, daycare to work. What? The math doesn't math. was it was just me. So I don't even know how I came across this. But Gary Vee, was like, I guess it was 2016 that he was doing this. I can't remember. And he did this whole like reselling challenge before the whole reselling thing got huge. It was like.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (01:50.382)
The math isn't math isn't mom.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (02:12.456)
huge.

Emelie Sanders (02:12.925)
Hey, if you want to make 20,000 something, something, something, and I can't remember what the exact number was, you know, it was like a whole challenge. And I was like, I can do that. I'm like, have the audacity of a white man. I was like, I can totally do that. And so I did actually like exceeded it. And I was like, oh, cool. Like this could be like a thing. So for just me not paying for childcare, I literally lugged my baby around all of these like Goodwills, resell shops, all of that. Anyway, we still use.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (02:26.033)
I love it!

Emelie Sanders (02:42.717)
clothing online for a good, I mean, probably a year and I was doing really well and I documented it on Instagram, like early Instagram. And it got to a point where people were asking me for advice on things and that's sort of when I got into, I honestly digital products, I didn't know I was doing it, but I was like, oh yeah, let me show you how I'm doing my bookkeeping. Let me show you how I'm tracking inventory. Let me show you how I'm doing this, that.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (02:52.61)
Wow.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (03:07.541)
Huh.

Emelie Sanders (03:10.557)
And I ended up selling enough of those services and products that I just didn't need to resell clothing anymore. And yeah.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (03:17.773)
Wait.

Hold on a second, like this is truly just, how did you get all of those skills, like the bookkeeping and all of that?

Emelie Sanders (03:29.021)
I just taught myself as I went. I was like, I guess I commit to the bit if I do something and do it all the way. So I was like, I just taught myself the things. then long story short, it got into, I got really interested in the marketing side of what I was doing. I just kind of like went all in on that. And then like the reselling thing kind of boomed. And so then a lot of people were reselling and they were new. And I was like, I am, give me your money.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (03:44.322)
Yeah.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (03:56.992)
Ciao, hallo!

Emelie Sanders (03:58.797)
and yeah, just kind of like went from there. And then I ended up just getting into the same marketing stuff, but like digital marketing in the coaching space. So yeah, yup. And that's kind of how I segue now into the track that leads us here and kind of the service provider coaching world that we're in, was the marketing director for a business coach who like coached, like culinary entrepreneurs.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (04:07.086)
Mmm.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (04:26.603)
Okay, interesting.

Emelie Sanders (04:28.205)
And then, actually from there started doing more like freelancing type stuff and yeah. I don't know how much, how much more to this. There's a whole timeline.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (04:37.763)
Wow.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (04:42.55)
No, it makes so much sense, but what I'm really taking away is like, at every single point, you really have committed to the bit. And it's like, you have gone so hard in the paint. I'm in your membership on Patreon. And every time you post something, I'm like, wait, how is she, like, this is incredible. This is incredible. This is like, you just offer so much value all the time. I would love to like sit in your brain for a little bit, but I guess that's what we're doing in this podcast. So.

Emelie Sanders (04:50.658)
yeah.

Emelie Sanders (05:09.796)
yeah.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (05:10.214)
I think that's so inspiring to my audience because I feel like anyone who's listening, it's like just start, you know? Is that what you would say? Yeah. Yeah.

Emelie Sanders (05:18.193)
Yeah, absolutely. Like just do the do. I mean, it's like, I mean, even in my, when I work with my students and my, and my clients and we're looking at stuff and like B minus work, like just do B minus work, you know? and just like go from there. We can always iterate all of that. That's I'm huge on that. And then, I don't even know where I saw this long time ago, but I've read somewhere the whole like half ass is better than no ass at all. And I'm like, honestly.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (05:46.638)
Honestly?

Emelie Sanders (05:49.447)
on the right. So like I stand by that. Just do the

Caitlan Siegenthaler (05:53.102)
I love it. I'm gonna put that on a sticky note on my computer. Just like half ass is way better than no ass. I mean, it's true. think part of my work is helping people like return to themselves and find the courage to put that out there. But it's like, that is the same thing. Like even a half of your ass is way better. Yes. I love the iteration piece, which brings me to my next question because you drew me in using humor and copy to sell things.

Emelie Sanders (05:59.611)
Yeah.

Emelie Sanders (06:05.809)
Yeah.

Emelie Sanders (06:11.057)
than none of you at all, for real.

Emelie Sanders (06:19.965)
perfect segue. Good job.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (06:22.804)
charm and disarm, you know, through the way. And now I see this happening for you, like both in real time, but also I've seen you kind of talk about it. You iterate in your business because all the time, like, tell me more about that because you drew me in using humor. You are evolving that more. And I'm just so curious about the iteration and how you, how you look at all of

Emelie Sanders (06:37.274)
yeah.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (06:52.266)
your offers, your business as a whole.

Emelie Sanders (06:52.391)
Yeah.

Yeah, it's really good question because I think that we're very quick to be like, if something's not working or not clicking or whatever, we kind of just want to like shred things like just like start over the big, you know, pivot, like just all the things. There's a time and place. But yeah, whenever so I kind of will back up when I decided to go all in on, I guess, of like copywriting and education on that. I

Caitlan Siegenthaler (07:02.68)
Yeah.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (07:06.497)
Yes.

Emelie Sanders (07:20.879)
I, one thing I observed when doing sort of reflection was that most of my client students, just all of that originated from a place of connecting with people through humor. And I was like, my God, I think that might be like my brand's shtick. Like I was like, that's the thing. That's the thing. And so I committed, would say to a good amount of time, I don't even know the timeline.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (07:31.566)
All

Caitlan Siegenthaler (07:35.798)
Yeah. Yeah.

Emelie Sanders (07:42.777)
Timed blindness is real, but I was like, I am going to commit to this being my shtick and led with that. And yeah, definitely people were interested, lot of good conversations, but it really wasn't the thing it did. Definitely did. I think that I kind of like went too far into the deep end with that one. But I did out of that, like, because I really do believe, for instance, like people tell you when you write copy to be clear over clever. And we just hear that all the time. Clear over clever, clear, clever. And like one of my biggest

Caitlan Siegenthaler (07:54.574)
Alright.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (08:09.506)
less.

Emelie Sanders (08:12.701)
point of views are my biggest things I'll die on is that you can be both. It's just, it's challenging and that's a different conversation. But all that to say, I think the humor element came in to teach me that and introduced me to that way of thinking and really grabbing onto that. Whereas I tried to make it, you know, we're all about writing copy that's also humorous. And so I did lead with that for a while. And while it's still like a component of my brain, like I still have the

Caitlan Siegenthaler (08:17.579)
Yes.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (08:36.764)
no.

Emelie Sanders (08:42.141)
find your funny quiz, which is sort of like, I do believe everyone's funny. So like, in what way are you funny? Like, where's humor come into play? I still talk about those things, it still exists. It's still part of a big part of how I even run this business. But it's just not the forefront. So back to iteration is, instead of just being like, my gosh, this isn't working, I guess I'm not supposed to write copy, right? It's, you know, what element was that?

Caitlan Siegenthaler (08:58.914)
Yes.

Emelie Sanders (09:09.149)
supposed to teach me what part of my leaving and keeping. so yeah, I iterate all the time. I literally just this past week did tweaks to my own messaging around both of my group programs. So it's just like a constant, you know, we have scheduled times that we pause and we reflect and we look at how we felt. We look at data. We look at all the things. Okay. We look at all of the, I'm so sorry.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (09:27.392)
Mmm, yeah.

No, you're good. We'll cut this out. Hello.

Emelie Sanders (09:39.953)
So sorry, hold on.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (09:41.142)
No, you're good.

Emelie Sanders (09:46.973)
I told them I was on the call but I didn't tell them it was recorded so that's on me. Let me throw some britches out the door. Come here. Come here. I'm throwing it out here. I'm recording.

Emelie Sanders (10:02.769)
right there.

Emelie Sanders (10:06.523)
That was on me for not locking. Good thing this is not live.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (10:08.974)
you're like listen also this is the beauty of podcasting I think is like we're just gonna chip chop that whole section oh no worries

Emelie Sanders (10:15.067)
He can edit. Yeah. The whole thing out. Sorry. Okay. okay. I'll just backtrack to like the, yeah. Okay. So last week.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (10:26.988)
You said you always leave space for pausing and reflecting.

Emelie Sanders (10:31.995)
Yes, okay, yeah. So every month after every time we do a campaign launch, whatever, we do pause to reflect back and kind of see how did things go? How did we feel? Where are the numbers telling us and all of that? And oftentimes it does come to, hey, we need to kind of reposition this a little bit, or maybe we need to like change this messaging. And so yeah, it's always something that we're keeping an eye on and changing. And I definitely encourage everybody to do that.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (10:47.982)
Mmm.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (10:57.998)
Do you have an example? Because I'm like, OK, yes, this sounds amazing. But I'm imagining like 2020 version of Caitlin just starting her business. like, what data? Like, I feel like my questions would be like, what data do I look at? Yeah, like, how do I know? I felt good about it, but nobody bought. Like, how do you? How do you? Yeah, that would be amazing.

Emelie Sanders (11:01.725)
You

Emelie Sanders (11:11.067)
Hmm. What am I looking at? Yeah.

and then.

Emelie Sanders (11:19.931)
Okay. I can give an example. I'll give an example. So stand up copy is my like primary kind of like I lead with this group program. It's my sales copy group program. So whenever we, I mean, we're on our, we're going to be enrolling. We're doing early enrollment right now for like our eighth cohort. But when at the very beginning, I really led with the humor thing for instance. And so the whole premise of this offer was like, come and learn how to write.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (11:28.471)
Yes.

Emelie Sanders (11:47.837)
clear and clever sales copy. And that was kind of like the whole thing. Like come and learn how to do your messaging, your sales copy, it's going to be clear. It's going to be clever kind of thing. Like you can have both. And that's kind of like what we did. And, and I should note too, it's so funny is like the content hasn't necessarily changed, you know, not that, not that much besides just like normal sort of updates and all in improvements, but

Caitlan Siegenthaler (12:06.35)
Mmm.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (12:12.27)
Sure.

Emelie Sanders (12:13.403)
What we was when having conversations with people, was like, yes, everyone wants to have copy that sounds like them. Definitely. Like they want to be able to have personality and for it to be clear what they're selling. But at the same time, like what do they want more? And I realized that hadn't gone deep enough into what that is. And so when we took a step back and talked to students and when we listened to people who were wanting to join, we looked at feedback forms, all these things we realized was

Caitlan Siegenthaler (12:19.854)
Mm.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (12:31.265)
Mmm.

Emelie Sanders (12:42.865)
What they valued was, my gosh, like this made sense. And I was actually able to like write my copy a lot faster. Now that I have kind of like a structure and like, know what I'm doing. And so what we started to notice was, these people are full-time coaches, service providers, content creators, not full-time copywriters. And so it's important for them is to like get their sales copy done quickly because it's just this small. It's just a tiny little task on their giant list of things to do.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (12:49.004)
memory now.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (12:58.37)
Yeah.

Emelie Sanders (13:11.143)
So how can we make that easy for them to knock off? So I was like, that's the thing. So then we shifted the whole kind of positioning of it to being like, hey, you're gonna come and learn how to your sales copy and half the time it used to take you. And then that started making more people go, yeah, I get what we're doing now.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (13:11.171)
Yes.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (13:25.486)
Mmm.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (13:31.318)
Yes. Well, and isn't that so interesting because it's like still the same thing, but you're speaking, I feel like what you're saying, not that it didn't make sense before, but like what I'm hearing is now it makes even more sense. It's even easier for that person to say yes, because you looked at the data and you actually talked to them and you looked at what they were saying and you're like, okay, I get you. Let me help you and all the other people like you because yeah, who...

Emelie Sanders (13:36.881)
Yeah.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (14:00.086)
I mean, as a service provider and a solo entrepreneur and a mom, like, I want to write as fast as possible. Yeah.

Emelie Sanders (14:07.697)
Yeah, get it done. But, but I need it to still do its job and needs to do well. Yup.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (14:11.726)
Exactly, exactly. Okay, this is amazing. And I think for anyone listening, like the biggest takeaway here for me is look, I did make the space for that. I wonder how many people also don't make the space to look at how you're doing. How did it go? Because I feel like sometimes we're just guessing we're like throwing spaghetti at the wall or we're like, okay, I'm gonna get in the mindset of my ideal client, but you're one person. And then it sounds like you're actually having

Emelie Sanders (14:24.145)
Yeah, it's hard.

Emelie Sanders (14:40.349)
That happens a lot. Yeah, it happens all where people will hear one person say, we'll actually want this or I'm thinking this. And then just that one person dictates everything. And what's funny too, sometimes that person isn't even someone who has bought and probably won't. Yeah, the making the time and the space is huge because we do tend to be like full steam ahead, right? It's like, well, what's next? What am I supposed to be doing? You know, I think the heart's in the place where it's like, I want this to be better.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (15:00.812)
last.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (15:06.893)
Yes.

Emelie Sanders (15:07.185)
Like I want to improve, like we have to take a beat because we, personally am like a recovering more equals more person. Like I'm like, well, if I just like put more into, I try harder, I do more, like more input equals more output. And it's like, okay, not always true. So I think that that's the tendency. And so to like kind of pause and reflect is wild. So we have that built into like what we do as a team, but

Caitlan Siegenthaler (15:15.202)
Dead-O.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (15:34.733)
Love it.

Emelie Sanders (15:35.665)
Then it's also something that we've started to incorporate into like my graduate program, essentially, like for people who come out of Sam Coppia, have worked with me one-on-one, it's a sales strategy program. But one thing we do is every month at the very end, they go through a guided retro. So it's like, hi, come to this call. We're going to force you to slow down. So we know what to iterate on. And I think that everyone needs that. Put it on your calendar. Yeah.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (15:52.942)
Mmm.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (16:00.426)
A thousand percent. In fact, yeah, we could go on a tangent about this, which I have decidedly in my brain been like, nope, we're going to stay on this. But I felt it. And yeah, that just hits home so much. OK, you have an incredible brand, Pass the Queso. And.

Emelie Sanders (16:07.42)
I'm sure we could.

Emelie Sanders (16:11.911)
process.

Emelie Sanders (16:15.836)
Yeah.

Emelie Sanders (16:20.849)
Thank you.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (16:24.066)
I'm trying to decide which question I want to ask first here. If a listener is a DIYer for their biz and they're in the early stages and you've built this like incredible brand and business, I also just have the sense that you have an incredible like intuition and business sense and just like, I don't know, you've got something about you, but where do you recommend, like I'm thinking about 2020 Caitlin when she started her business and she had like zero idea. I started my business on accident, but that's another story.

Emelie Sanders (16:29.627)
Okay. Okay.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (16:53.886)
and recommend they start in terms of updating their copy to sound the most like them and not like our shared arch nemesis, the hashtag girlboss. Beige blob babes.

Emelie Sanders (16:55.965)
leave that one.

Emelie Sanders (17:03.261)
The beige blob babes

Emelie Sanders (17:08.327)
Yeah, you know their websites just have like those weird blobby colors and they're just beige. I don't understand. So you're asking what they could do to specifically make their copy sound more like them. Yeah, okay.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (17:12.928)
Yes. No.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (17:19.918)
Yes, because I feel like in the beginning it's overwhelming and you're like, you sort of don't know what you're doing and you want to present your stuff, but you're also, at least in my world, in my language, it's like you have a lot of parts going on, like maybe imposter syndrome or something. Yeah.

Emelie Sanders (17:25.967)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Emelie Sanders (17:35.217)
Yeah.

Yeah, for sure. I would call, before I answer that, I would kind of, I do want to call it an observation I've had, which I tend to see people who just start really, because I feel like we're very influenced to like be personal brands. And so I find that at first a lot of people spend more time trying to sound like themself rather than making sure what they're saying makes sense.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (17:47.042)
Yeah.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (17:54.602)
I know.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (18:04.206)
Oh, wait, I needed to hear that and I am not at the beginning of my business. Say it again. No, it's great. It's great.

Emelie Sanders (18:09.821)
Oh, bad. Well, let me, because the clear and clever thing, that's the conversation around that. So the whole thing is to be clear and clever, you have to be clear first. And what happens is we try to do both in tandem, which is a skill set you have to develop. It's not like a beginner skill set. So you have to lead with what are you saying and being really clear. And I always tell my students, I'm like,

Caitlan Siegenthaler (18:17.099)
Yes!

Caitlan Siegenthaler (18:23.554)
Mmm.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (18:27.694)
Mmmmm

Caitlan Siegenthaler (18:33.262)
Mmm

Emelie Sanders (18:39.087)
say it on sexy, get it out there. Like what is like the most stripped down naked boring version of what you're trying to say? Put it out there. And then, hmm, how would I reword that in my own words? And then that's where you layer on the personality. But you have to take two steps. And people like to sell you on, hey, be clear, be clear, be clear, because it's easier. It's easier and it's one step. But if we wanna do both, you have to take step one, step two. So one, I'm always like,

Caitlan Siegenthaler (18:44.91)
Mmm.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (19:00.29)
sure.

Emelie Sanders (19:07.313)
So I guess it'd be two pieces of feedback. is be clear first. And the big question is what's your shtick? Like what's the focus? What are you trying to say here? I see people who say, who have a lot of words and they're saying nothing at all. So like, what are you actually saying?

Caitlan Siegenthaler (19:13.72)
Yes.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (19:22.094)
That could be me sometimes.

Emelie Sanders (19:24.893)
I don't know, maybe. It's so common, it's so common. so like, you know, there's that. But then if you're like, okay, well, I've got it figured out, like, I know what I'm saying and here it is. And you're just like, how do I make it sound more like me? Like you were saying, at that point, I really like to encourage people to use what they've got down as almost like a prompt and to say what they want to say aloud. So if you're like, okay, I'm trying to say, you know,

Caitlan Siegenthaler (19:44.76)
Mm.

Emelie Sanders (19:51.985)
How do they, you know, like we just did, I'm trying to say, you know, I can make your copy sound like have a personality. Like that's the most unsexy bit. But you're over here like, no, like how can you like look at your words and make them sound more like you and not like our arch nemesis, the girl boss. Like you see how you're saying the same thing. But like one is you and one is like just the gist of what you're trying to say. So like say it aloud, cause sometimes we write things and we're like, yeah, that sounds fine. But if you read it, you're like, ooh.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (20:09.678)
Hmm.

Emelie Sanders (20:22.533)
and it feels chunky in my mouth and it's cause you wouldn't say it.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (20:27.17)
Wait, I'm dead. It feels chunky in my mouth. Yes!

Emelie Sanders (20:29.595)
Yeah, because it does. It does. Like what you start to like stumble on it and then you kind of feel awkward, you know. So sometimes when I'm reading copy, I don't even have to look at copy. Sometimes I'd be like, I don't know. It doesn't sound like you or you know, I feel like you could add more personally. All I have to say is like, would you say that to me over coffee? And most of time they're like, no. And I'm like, there's your answer. So if it's something you want to, you know, tell a friend or something.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (20:34.83)
Hmm.

Emelie Sanders (20:58.331)
But yeah, the saying it aloud is a huge one for sure. Yeah. We're using it as a prompt. Yeah.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (21:01.166)
Yes. I love that. I'm such a verbal processor. mean, I have a podcast.

Emelie Sanders (21:07.735)
my God, me too. Sometimes people, I have a lot of students that do, they'll literally when we're working together, for instance, in Slack, they'll voice message. They'll use that transcript that Slack does for you automatically and then like use that to kind of like pull and clean up, which is fantastic. And I love that. But I think also just in a word of encouragement here is that you're probably like, that sounds so long. Like I have to like do step one, step two, maybe transcribe something.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (21:17.667)
Yes.

Emelie Sanders (21:36.605)
It sounds like a lot, but you build that muscle. Like you will totally get to a point where you're like sitting down and you're just like, and you read it aloud and you're like, damn, that sounded just like me. And it makes sense. Like it just takes time. You got to get your reps in.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (21:40.152)
that makes fun.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (21:51.062)
Love it. I love it. And that's like something people can implement right now. Today. I'm, yeah, I'm almost out of time with my nanny, but as soon as I'm back at my desk tomorrow, I'm doing it. Right? Nanny time. Okay. Just curious, where did the idea of Pass the Queso come from? Because I love your brand. I mean, who doesn't love Queso? And also, that to me is like,

Emelie Sanders (21:55.857)
Yeah, like literally today. Go write an email.

Emelie Sanders (22:05.799)
And I'm like clocking my nanny time too. What's up?

Caitlan Siegenthaler (22:20.906)
interesting, it's fun, I just love it. So I'm curious because I think that will, the name, the idea, the inspiration, D, all of the above.

Emelie Sanders (22:23.515)
It's like the name of it.

Emelie Sanders (22:30.845)
Yeah, so the name came to me. was, before I was doing, before I committed to pass the queso, I was, oh my God, I was trying to work specifically with like ceramic artists with copy. I know what's happening here.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (22:44.45)
Wait, love this. Riverside loved that. Thumbs up to ceramic artists.

Emelie Sanders (22:51.601)
thumbs up. Shout out to you guys. Yeah. So I was like, who am I writing? You know, the whole copy thing anyway. I had a different name. I was working under and all that. And, I was just like, need something different, you know, different and pass the case. So came from, it was a really random thought. was literally on the toilet and I was like, that's it. And I bought the domain before I even got up. was like, it's happening. I don't know what it is, but it's happening. And I, but

It came from, there's a Tex-Mex restaurant that we've been going to for over two decades. They've rebranded, they've renamed with like all the things, they've always been the same. And I don't remember what the name of the person who came up with the concept of a third place. Have you heard about that? Everyone needs a third place. First, you have like your home. Two, you have like your work. And the third is sort of like a community outside of those things. And so,

Caitlan Siegenthaler (23:25.07)
Hmm.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (23:38.156)
No.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (23:47.574)
Mmm, I love that.

Emelie Sanders (23:49.275)
That has always been our third place. we go there to, dude, I've sat there and verbally processed to my mom and she's like taking notes on things. We've cried there. We've like done all the things that we've had. We've just spent so much time there on my website, on my about page of a picture of me with Delphina, the owner and like a flight of margaritas. And it's just like, we're just always there. And so just sort of this idea of like passing the case around the table, like having a brand that in this like very community focused sort of thing is where that came from.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (24:12.32)
on.

Emelie Sanders (24:19.069)
And it was kind of like a long connection, but that's that's where it up. I pulled it from.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (24:23.982)
love it because it's fun but also deep. I, you know, like it's super fun on the surface and then you tell me the whole story and I'm like, wait a second. Yeah.

Emelie Sanders (24:27.023)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Emelie Sanders (24:32.509)
There's more than meets the eye. Yeah, it's on my back. It's just fun. But because it is, I, but as far as like the actual, as the building out of the brand, cause it's like, we've got different offers and different offers of like little mini brands and everything. Um, and it's like, everything is really just stemmed from me, like associations and things I enjoy and things I like. I think it's funny cause we talk about building brands like for your, you know, ideal client.

But I also think there's something to be said for building a brand that you want to show up for every day and kind of embody. And then also if they love the brand, they're going to love me because it's the same damn thing. within this kind of space, that makes sense. I can see that not for others, but yeah, it's just a big fun. Hey, what if we brand this to be like an OnlyFans? You know, it's so random. That was so fun.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (25:06.431)
you

Caitlan Siegenthaler (25:27.412)
Also, Loki made me sign up for the Patreon. was like, wait a second, because then you also put like feet pics not included, and I was just like, duh. That's to me is like, yes, this person is fun. they, that's, so I'm a therapist at my core, but I'm also, I've pivoted recently, and I do work with business owners and blah, blah. But I.

even in therapy use humor and it's something I think that sets me apart from other therapists because like sometimes it's just fun to be funny and fun to like make light of things and sometimes like yeah life is serious but it could also be fun you know or what's the point?

Emelie Sanders (25:53.905)
Yeah.

Emelie Sanders (25:59.325)
Thank you.

Emelie Sanders (26:05.713)
Yeah, exactly the same with business and we're doing this thing and we're showing up every day. And so like, why not do it and make it fun? Like, why would we not? And even just, mean, with the whole humor thing, all the, mean, even what it does to us in our brains, like chemically, it's just, it's a great tool. And so even though it's not something I lean into talking about something that every day I'm like, there's something we embody for sure. So yeah.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (26:23.981)
Yes.

or million.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (26:32.684)
Yes, I love that. I think that for me was like the automatic alignment with your work. So amazing. Okay, I need to know your biggest copywriting ick.

Emelie Sanders (26:40.871)
Boom.

Emelie Sanders (26:45.405)
As in, as in like when I see a copy or like me, right? Okay. Yeah, I mean, I gotta say it's the, I'm torn. Cause on one hand I'm like, I hate it when I'm like, I'm reading so many words, but you're saying nothing at all, which we talked about earlier. I hate that. I do. It just like drives me bonkers. Cause I'm like, I keep reading and it makes less and less sense. Like,

Caitlan Siegenthaler (26:50.508)
When you see it, what are you like, ugh, yikes?

Caitlan Siegenthaler (27:06.092)
Yes.

Emelie Sanders (27:14.109)
Say the damn thing. I'm like, I'm always saying, say the damn thing. Like in emails, when there's like an intro, it's like, we're going to talk about that. Would you go up to your friend and be like, hey, I'm going to tell you what I had for lunch. I tacos for lunch. What the fuck is that? So just say the damn thing. Like, you know, I said it's a big one. And then the other one, and they told me pick one, but the other one, I hate to be this because I, you know, I love AI.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (27:15.522)
Yeah.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (27:27.693)
Hahaha

Caitlan Siegenthaler (27:37.332)
No, I love it. Give me all of them. This is fun.

Emelie Sanders (27:44.189)
And we use it in stand-up copy. We've got two, you know, custom GBTs. Like I show everyone how, how can you use it properly? But, but I will say introducing that hasn't also introduced like an opened a can of worms. And so I recognize the good that comes with the bad. And so there's just a lot of unlike a lot of you have to notice the patterns because all AI is so good at patterns. And so they're just like a lot.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (27:50.54)
Love it. Love it.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (27:57.677)
Yeah.

Emelie Sanders (28:09.831)
a list of and I don't, you know, not, you can't say that word because of AI. I don't have any of those, but it's more like paying attention to the patterns that's spinning out at you. You know, it's not about this. It's about that. it's like, like I get you. Like I see it, but like, and I'm cool with you using that pattern, but like back to the first thing I said, are you actually saying something? You know, like what is, you know, or is it just filler? Cause it tends to just be filler. So I think the kind of ick is

Caitlan Siegenthaler (28:23.542)
is why yeah.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (28:33.294)
Mmm.

Emelie Sanders (28:39.441)
kind of, it's not even necessarily, it's just the lack of awareness or I don't know if it's even an awareness. I feel like we all kind of have a spidey sense about it. I think it's almost like a laziness. Like I can tell that you didn't go back through this. Then I think that's what it is. I'm verbally processing my ick. My ick is laziness.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (28:58.09)
Love it. Laziness with a capital L, whether you didn't go back through it, you wouldn't say it, you're somehow, you're unleashing on chat, the unleash, you know, I like that because I feel like for listeners, it's like, just think about that, you know, I do in full transparency, not often put as much emphasis on my copy as I would like to, which I think is how I got into your space. And

Emelie Sanders (29:02.621)
Thank

Emelie Sanders (29:10.919)
Mm-hmm.

Emelie Sanders (29:25.51)
Yeah.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (29:28.374)
I feel like it's like, okay, Caitlin, like this, like no one's gonna buy something if they don't understand what you do. Like this is the core of your biz, baby.

Emelie Sanders (29:37.052)
Yeah. Words matter. Yeah. And words are everywhere too, you know? And it's like, regardless of what you're selling, at the end of the day, you and I are selling the same thing. We're selling words, you know? So...

Caitlan Siegenthaler (29:42.541)
Yeah

Caitlan Siegenthaler (29:49.578)
Mmmmm.

And I think, okay, this is like full transparency, I think there's been a part of me that's been really frustrated at the people who are better at words than me, because I'm like, I can tell that that's a shit offer sometimes.

Emelie Sanders (30:05.511)
Yeah, yeah, it's the whole like, is her offer amazing or is she just good at marketing? It's the equivalent of that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (30:10.558)
Yes, yeah. like fully, most people are, their offer is amazing and they're good at marketing, but like there is that bamboozlement.

Emelie Sanders (30:19.261)
Yeah, I mean, feel the flip side too. Sometimes I have, I mean, I, I get excited when they become students, but sometimes I'm like, I see offers and I see the work that people are doing, the impact. just like, what you're doing is amazing. And then it's like, but then when you talk about it, I'm like, it's not matching. And it's frustrating because it's kind of like, you could be making more of it, but you could be doing more of what you're doing. You could, you know, all of that, if you just like knew how to talk about it.

So that's, oh, it drives me bananas.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (30:51.726)
I genuinely feel like that this fully might be me. Watch me go sign up for stand up coffee after this. How did I find myself here? Anyways, enough about Caitlin. Okay, I gotta ask you this question about productized newsletters, but first, the listeners need to know that you sent them an amazing email, so they should absolutely go sign up.

Emelie Sanders (30:57.469)
Is this a sales call?

Emelie Sanders (31:11.581)
Okay.

Thanks.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (31:16.726)
allow when your nanny went to jail, walk us through your process and what is a productized newsletter for anyone who doesn't.

Emelie Sanders (31:23.281)
Wait, walking you through the process of the nanny email? I was like, wait, wait. you're saying...

Caitlan Siegenthaler (31:26.454)
No, no, no.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (31:30.478)
No, no, no. The example of how good your emails are is the nanny went to jail one where you were just like, hey, my nanny went to jail, but I needed to write a subject line. Or like I needed you to open this email and then it was a sales email. It was amazing. It was.

Emelie Sanders (31:34.672)
God, is the mini one.

Emelie Sanders (31:42.365)
Yes. It was also about my nanny going to jail, which was wild. I do not lie. The lore is deep over here. So, okay, you talk about productized newsletters. Yeah. So, cause if we're talking to, I mean, no, we're not talking to newbies, but you had mentioned kind of that's a, that is a conversation piece is oftentimes when you get started with our email marketing, you know, the first thing people tell you do is they're like, you gotta add people to your list. So you're gonna need to like, make a freebie. And it's like, okay, that's like your first mission.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (32:01.122)
Yes.

Emelie Sanders (32:12.219)
It's like, but if you're just starting your email list, you're just sort of getting to know these people that you're going to work with. Like, how do you even really know like what they need or what? Like freebies take time. Freebies are an offer. They're just a free offer. And so to kind of like figure out what makes a really good one, you have to, and I know it sucks, you have to iterate. You have to do it again and then have to try all these different things. Freebies take a long, like take, they take time. Then when you have one that works really good, boy howdy. It's like a miracle.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (32:17.23)
NNNN

Caitlan Siegenthaler (32:36.589)
Yeah.

Emelie Sanders (32:42.055)
But in the meantime, how are you supposed to add people to your list? How are you supposed to like do that thing? Because no one wants to join, you know, a forum that's like, join my newsletter, updates, tips and tricks. It's like, we literally do not give a shit. So like, what are you supposed to do instead? So that's where the whole like treating your newsletter like an offer, like a freebie is kind of like the hack on that. So

Caitlan Siegenthaler (32:54.19)
Thank

I'm

Caitlan Siegenthaler (33:09.006)
Mmmmm

Emelie Sanders (33:10.363)
Yeah, so just like you would have a freebie and you're like, okay, here's the freebie name. Here's what you can expect in the freebie. Sign up for it. Same thing. Here's the newsletter name. Here's what you can expect from the newsletter. Sign up for it. And then instead of just promoting a freebie everywhere, you're promoting your newsletter. So that's like, I highly recommend doing that before you even get into freebie land. And what's great too is people who see, okay, this is their newsletter and what they're gonna talk about. I'm interested in that topic.

Those people are going to be way more qualified than people who are just like, look, a free thing. Yeah.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (33:45.93)
Ugh, wait, this is genius. Like, I don't know anyone else teaching this, by the way. Like, this is genius. And the amount of times I've heard the like, make a freebie, like, I just was updating my segments in Flowdesk and like, the freebie graveyard that exists in there of like,

Emelie Sanders (33:56.241)
Yeah. It's hard.

Emelie Sanders (34:04.637)
has been there. I'm so familiar

Caitlan Siegenthaler (34:06.798)
I was like, girl, I couldn't even send to like, this email I sent today, I couldn't even send it to the majority of people because it wasn't relevant based on the freebie that they can't, you know?

Emelie Sanders (34:18.263)
interesting. Okay.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (34:20.066)
Well, I was trying segmenting. Anyways, this is a whole nother. I don't want to turn this into like, Kaylyn's business 101, but I think what you're teaching is like, don't, use a way overused metaphor, don't put the cart before the horse. Like, see who your people are, who's interested in what you're offering in your newsletter and how you're showing up there. Have a conversation with them. Weird, crazy, wild.

Emelie Sanders (34:22.127)
Yeah.

Emelie Sanders (34:46.629)
and a wild thing to do with other people.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (34:49.676)
and then make something based on what they need.

Emelie Sanders (34:54.203)
Yeah, for sure. And then like, why would you not just go ahead and add people to your list? Like so many people are like, I just like, can't be list building right now cause I'm or I can't be doing this or I can't be selling cause I'm trying to figure out my freebie. Girl, y'all need a freebie. Just like pause. I also, there's long stretches of time where I just like didn't even have a freebie. I don't think I actually have a

Caitlan Siegenthaler (35:08.686)
Mmm.

Emelie Sanders (35:17.799)
front-facing freebie right now. I keep a lot of them in my back pocket. No, I do. have a monthly free coaching call, the case of Kikis. I rarely talk about those, but like that's an entry point that's technically a freebie. And then the quiz, again, I don't really talk about that one too much. It just kind of like, that's its own thing. But like the other, like I do have freebies on deck, but I don't offer them to anybody. If someone comes onto my list, they've been on my list for a month actually. I send like a happy anniversary month email.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (35:25.517)
Boo.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (35:47.566)
Thank

Emelie Sanders (35:47.707)
And then I'm like, hey, pick your freebie. You can get this or this. And just kind of give them something.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (35:54.518)
I love that. think that's again listeners like strategy you can take away right away.

Emelie Sanders (35:58.525)
Write that down. I gate kept that for a long time, I'm not gonna lie, cause I was like, Dan, this so good. And then everyone's gonna do it and it's not gonna be cool anymore, but like do it. I'll come up with other shit.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (36:07.81)
Well, only here. And also, I think I legit just signed up for your email list. Like, I don't think I was in a freebie flow, so it worked.

Emelie Sanders (36:18.035)
yeah, cause you bought, cause you joined the subscription.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (36:22.328)
But it was way before that. I was on your list way, before that. I've snuck in so many different ways. You find it. Okay, here comes a therapist transformation question because I'm not about you necessarily. yes, you are prepared.

Emelie Sanders (36:25.039)
you join it?

I'll find it. I can tell you exactly where you came from. I can't. I will.

Emelie Sanders (36:40.029)
Listen, my dad's a psychologist. I got this. I will deflect with humor.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (36:50.528)
My favorite way, why do you think I use it in my work? so your amazing stand-up copy program, I'm thinking that, probably gonna join anyway, so that's a whole separate thing, but I'm imagining people finding their voice in that, in a really transformational way. Is that true?

Emelie Sanders (36:59.453)
Okay.

Emelie Sanders (37:17.425)
Yeah, that does happen. I just recorded a case study with someone two days ago because we do have one of the kind of steps is a brand voice guide and documenting that. But at first I was like, we're just documenting your brand voice. Because I'm very just like very, I'm very practical and kind of like utilitarian way that I approach things sometimes. But I've had people that are definitely like, no, I don't think you understand this was an exercise in self discovery. And I was like, what?

Caitlan Siegenthaler (37:37.208)
Yeah.

Emelie Sanders (37:46.895)
I'm just like, the fuck? Okay.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (37:48.766)
You're like, uh, okay, we're just telling people what you do, but hey.

Emelie Sanders (37:54.109)
But no, but I mean, like, but I got that I've gotten that a lot. And so a lot of there even people who are like, I didn't even like really believe in what I was selling before, kind of, kind of figuring out where because they you get lost in the sauce sometimes, sometimes you get lost in And so it's kind of like, felt I've heard that people felt like they've kind of discovered like kind of found themselves in that again. So 5000 % like finding your voice is huge.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (37:57.634)
Yeah.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (38:04.014)
Mmm.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (38:08.43)
Totally.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (38:19.436)
What helps you not get lost in the sauce?

Emelie Sanders (38:23.273)
man, I don't know. know I'm not lost in the sauce. I don't know because I am the sauce, babe. No, I the cheese sauce. know I don't know. I think I'm very, even though I do have fun, I'm just very incredibly focused and I have blinders on a lot. Like I have a, I mean in little ways.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (38:26.368)
I feel like you're so not lost in the sauce. So how do you know?

Caitlan Siegenthaler (38:47.277)
Mmm.

Emelie Sanders (38:52.613)
Newsletters, I don't consume a bunch of newsletters. I have them in a folder and I like selectively go through there. I mute people, block people, like I block people, like if they, and not like I've got beef, but I usually use mute. But it's like, I don't follow people who do similar-ish things to me, although I actually would even go so far as to say I don't know anyone who does what I do per se. But I just, I'm incredibly focused and I don't let anything break that.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (38:57.774)
Eww.

Emelie Sanders (39:21.149)
And so I don't really get in positions where I'm like, Oh, I just wish I sounded like this or I could be doing that. There's no comparison ever going on because I don't let it creep in. So I'm extremely boundaried on that. Not on other things, but I am on that.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (39:25.952)
Mmmmm

Caitlan Siegenthaler (39:36.974)
I really appreciate this though because just yesterday I was like doing something else that didn't even have anything to do with my business. I was helping out a friend and I was on a website of someone who does something like kind, not exactly what I do because I, yeah, like kind of tangeny and I was like, look at, and then I was like, Kaylin, no, girl, like you gotta stay focused. I'm on a bigger mission than just, you know, so I love that because it's really helpful and,

Emelie Sanders (39:50.087)
was like Jason.

Emelie Sanders (39:58.589)
What are you doing?

Caitlan Siegenthaler (40:06.146)
Comparison can get us, at least me, stuck. So I imagine other.

Emelie Sanders (40:08.849)
You don't know where they're and you don't know what's going on with them either. You know, you don't because like I've definitely had instances where I thought I've had someone that I've been like, my gosh, they're this person. And just kind of like, I really like this person, the business that they're building and this and then, you know, getting kind of a moment to kind of see what was going on behind the curtain and being like, and that didn't happen all the time. But I'm just saying that like they do. And so like, why risk comparing yourself to someone who's

Caitlan Siegenthaler (40:12.59)
Excellent point.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (40:19.342)
Mmm.

Emelie Sanders (40:39.003)
Not where you want to be.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (40:40.43)
I totally hear that. Okay, I have a couple more questions, because I know we're both pushing up against nanny time and we want to make sure we get it done. You are a mom to, as you say, and you're about copy, a proud owner of four kiddos. I'm mom of one wild thing. He's about 18 months. yeah.

Emelie Sanders (40:52.711)
Yes.

Emelie Sanders (40:58.109)
crotch goblins.

Emelie Sanders (41:03.793)
Caitlan Siegenthaler (41:07.212)
Chicken nugget. Walk me through a day in the life as a mom and entrepreneur because I know it's not easy and I know a lot of my audience is like moming and entrepreneur-ing and that's like a whole nother level of stuff. So I'm sure you can inspire people with how you do it.

Emelie Sanders (41:22.269)
Yeah, you're doing like three jobs. So first of all, congratulations. Be good to yourself. We're in like a really weird right now transition between we used to, because we're like finishing up school, but it used to be an instance where, then you know, hadn't done anything, then she went to jail and I don't know what got into me. But previously we were literally driving an hour to school because

Caitlan Siegenthaler (41:27.553)
Right?

Caitlan Siegenthaler (41:41.752)
Yes.

Emelie Sanders (41:52.421)
We live rural and I don't like the school options here. driving our driving out of school and driving our back. And then I literally just worked in pockets. I think we all can relate to this. It's just work in pockets. And I mean, I really wish I could be like, you do this, you did that. And here's a truck. mean, I don't too. I mean, I would say my kids, the reason why I have more than one is it's like when you get

Caitlan Siegenthaler (41:57.088)
Thanks.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (42:04.874)
Yes. Yes.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (42:12.823)
Right.

Emelie Sanders (42:20.829)
kittens, say they get more than once they can play with each other or whatever. And it's like, I, I, I can't tell you last time I played quote unquote, like with my kids, like they play with each other. Um, so that's hack number one is to have at least two. Um, no, do what you want, do what you want. But, um, no, I just work in a bunch of pockets of time. And then for a really long time, and I would not recommend this was just working in pockets of time. I would stay up so, so late and like, I'm just not sort of.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (42:24.343)
You

Caitlan Siegenthaler (42:36.95)
I love this.

Emelie Sanders (42:49.895)
kind of getting back out from under that with not having any child care. But I also recommend like if you, if you can, I don't know what everyone's situation is, but like getting some child care, even if it's just like, I'm literally have my computer right now on top of the Lego table in my boy's room because like they're in the area where like I normally would be working like a get creative, get someone to watch your kids also getting out of the house. I don't know what that is, but two times a week I'm like, I'm working outside of the house for

Caitlan Siegenthaler (42:51.885)
Yeah.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (43:01.344)
Amen.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (43:18.036)
Ooh, love that one.

Emelie Sanders (43:19.247)
It's a good one. And then also as soon as you can, like I like to hire house support and then work support. So like for instance, I have someone that cleans my house once a month and I'm childcare. And like, I don't know if we mentioned this, but I'm also a single mom and like full of everybody. It's on me, baby. So like you got to get that support in there. And and then with work, I started with Haley as my right hand gal, you probably

Caitlan Siegenthaler (43:39.682)
Yes.

Emelie Sanders (43:47.293)
know of Haley at the very least, if you know me. Um, but like we're slowly adding more people on just like, what can we take off of me? Um, because we just like our, our capacity looks different. You know, when I say we're working in pockets of time, like I know it's like, okay, those pockets of quake two, I don't know, say like four or six hours, but the end of the, but the, it's not because you don't have focus. So find how you can create the focus. Um, I really wish I had better advice. I just, I, it's survival.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (43:55.169)
Mmm.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (43:59.447)
Yeah.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (44:18.286)
mean, listen, I think this is fantastic advice too, because what I love is that you're sharing how you do it, what works for you, especially as a single mom, and also, like, yeah, hire people to help you in the home, hire people to help you with your kids, hire people to help with, like, whatever you hate doing. That's the first thing I like. Not that I love being with my kids, or my kid, obviously, but also, if I wanna work, and I do, then...

Emelie Sanders (44:27.601)
Yeah.

Emelie Sanders (44:47.655)
Yeah.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (44:48.866)
He's literally crying right now. can hear him. Like it just wouldn't be worth it, you know?

Emelie Sanders (44:54.407)
Yeah, I mean, and also like being able to get quality work done means that whenever you're with your kid, you could actually be with them. Yeah. One of them, and like, and I know that we all like have big old feelings about this, cause even for Mother's Day, you know, my kids, my two boys, they filled out these like, you know, fill in the blank. My favorite thing is about mom, or mom's good at this or whatever. And I remember when they got back with those was, I don't even know, Mother's Day was like last month.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (45:01.664)
A million percent. Ugh!

Emelie Sanders (45:21.213)
And I remember just like looking at getting them back and the first thing that popped into my head was like, I hope that there's nothing on these papers about me working. Like I was just like my immediate thought was like, oh, my mom works all the time. She's always on her laptop. She's always on her phone. Like I was just like, I work so freaking hard to like be all the things. And so when I got those back and there was nothing about that, I was like, I'm gonna cry. And I'm not even a crier, but just like, you know, we're all just like doing our

Caitlan Siegenthaler (45:30.68)
Hmm.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (45:41.986)
Mmm.

Aww.

Emelie Sanders (45:51.077)
our best out here, you know? We really are. And just try different things. I think a big thing too for me is like, I'm a very, like I'm fun and outgoing. And so people think that I'm just like carefree. I'm actually, I'm so, I'm so uptight. don't know, I'm so uptight. I'm so particular about everything. But just like giving, we have a lot of flexibility and flow.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (45:52.92)
We really are.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (46:09.652)
you

Caitlan Siegenthaler (46:19.246)
Hmm.

Emelie Sanders (46:19.677)
And like, if something doesn't work or something goes wrong or whatever, I've just gotten to a point that what's freed me up is being like unapologetically okay with that. There have been two case studies that I rescheduled twice before because I'm like, you know what? I am not going to put myself in a position where like I am stressed sitting and like try like people crying, like no, we're not doing that. No.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (46:28.386)
Yep.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (46:38.819)
Yep.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (46:42.422)
No. And I feel like, I love what you're saying, because there's some balance to this. It's like, you can still have the things that you like the way that you like them. And running a business and being a mom also means that someone's going to get sick, something's going to happen, the nanny can't come, and you're going to have to shuffle things around. And that's okay, too. And you don't have to make meaning about yourself or about the situation when you have to do that.

Emelie Sanders (46:59.613)
every day.

Emelie Sanders (47:07.325)
Yes, that's exactly it. I love that so much.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (47:15.36)
Okay, last question. This has been such, well, second to last, 1.5 last question. This podcast is called Return. This is a little corny, but I love doing it. What is something that helps you return to yourself?

Emelie Sanders (47:24.12)
Yes.

Emelie Sanders (47:28.773)
Okay, yeah, I mean, I think that being a mom makes this answer different, you know? So, I really, two things come to mind when you ask that. One is like, I think because of this we just talked about, like, don't feel like I get, I don't clock in and clock out a bit. Like, I'm basically working in pockets just all day, you know? And like, notice people are like, that's what I'm about. Just shut up, you don't know my life.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (47:34.475)
Of course.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (47:56.814)
You try raising poor kids by yourself and then come talk, okay?

Emelie Sanders (48:01.901)
my god. But I think that for me, having my business be so me, you know, it's not about me as a mom. It's not about me as a, you know, it's me. I think that that kind of gives me just like a little bit of like, almost like I get to see and be me a little bit just all throughout every day and that helps a lot for me at least. But then outside of that, this sounds so stupid, but like my showers.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (48:10.221)
Mmm.

Emelie Sanders (48:31.729)
Like every night my shower, I have a snack in the shower. I shower by salt lamp nightlight. Like I've got like, my gosh, eucalyptus. So I can like, and I get in, can like scrunch, scrunch and then everything is like, and I, it's my shower, man. It's, and I don't ever take it until everybody is asleep. And like, I'm writing emails on my phone. I'm texting to my mom.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (48:32.142)
Okay.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (48:39.958)
right?

Emelie Sanders (49:00.061)
I'm scrolling threads. I'm staring off. I'm doing all the things.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (49:07.15)
I think every mom everywhere listening to this just took a big exhale and was like the shower, the like the long shower when no one is gonna burst in or no one needs you or no one's sitting right there or like there is something about that. So it's fantastic that time alone to just like come back to ourselves for five seconds. Decompress and like smell the eucalyptus and yes, it is.

Emelie Sanders (49:14.685)
Yeah, I will.

Emelie Sanders (49:29.304)
decompress.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (49:37.056)
It is important though, for real. Especially when your energy, I don't know, I won't speak for you, but for me and I have one kiddo. like when my energy is going out to my clients, to my support, my business, to the kid. Yeah, it's like something's gotta come back in. Yeah.

Emelie Sanders (49:39.399)
Yeah.

Emelie Sanders (49:52.615)
success

Yeah, yeah. Another thing that's kind of been happening for me lately, and I say this as we're like a ball cap on our call, but another thing is like, like clothing choices, which is weird. Like I think cause I did the bay, all my like kids are really close together. So I just did the like baby nursing, baby nursing, baby nursing. Like basically I've been like a milk machine forever. Just like, and you know, going through the...

Caitlan Siegenthaler (50:07.886)
Hmm.

Emelie Sanders (50:21.501)
always have spit up, always have something on you, always sweating, like you're just like always gross. I? Yogurt particles. But that's like the life. And so I just like for so long was like, whatever, I just wear bicycle shorts and sweatshirts. Like this is my life. But kind of taking a beat to be like, actually, how do I like to dress and like actually giving myself permission to like figure out that out and stuff. Like that's just an easy way, not easy.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (50:23.478)
Yes. Yes, I have like yogurt particles here from...

Caitlan Siegenthaler (50:42.114)
Hmm.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (50:46.424)
Love it.

Emelie Sanders (50:50.205)
because it's not, it wasn't easy at first and sometimes still isn't. But I think it's a simple way to like every day be like, I'm literally putting something on that's me. I'm not wearing this because of any of you guys. And I think that's a little way that helps not to be like, hey, mom, wake up and go put on blue jeans. It's going to make your day so much better. That's not what I'm saying. I hate that.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (50:58.819)
Yes.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (51:11.166)
No, but what I hear you saying is like remembering that yes, at the end of the day, you are still you and you no longer have to dress for, well, I don't know about for you, but for me when I was feeding my child, it was like function and like how's this gonna work, you know?

Emelie Sanders (51:29.661)
Yeah. Yup. Yup. All the things. What can I like bend over in without being like, ugh.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (51:35.694)
I literally was trying to get dressed for work and then in the afternoon be with my kiddo and I was like, well, I can't wear that dress because like I definitely can't like chase him across the playground. And anyways, I digress. Emily, this was the most fun, the most helpful conversation. I know people are gonna walk away and like immediately get value. So thank you for being on the show. Tell our listeners like what you have going on, what's coming up.

where they can find you so they can

Emelie Sanders (52:06.747)
Yeah, thank you for having me, I love doing these. And I guess when is this episode dropping?

Caitlan Siegenthaler (52:12.852)
It is going to drop at the end of June.

Emelie Sanders (52:16.133)
Okay, end of June hmm Well summertime, know, you've we've kind of like soft teased out the whole subscription thing in here past the case of That's something that we're actually going to be like full launching in the summer, which is super exciting Yeah, and then also an email marketing course that I'm will be fully launching as well. doing a little little behind-the-scenes beta testing

Caitlan Siegenthaler (52:25.9)
Yes.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (52:32.138)
So exciting.

Emelie Sanders (52:44.795)
Yeah, but you know, there's just like, we just talked about the whole freebie thing and the whole this that there's not a lot out there for people with like small and scrappy lists. And so it's like, how can you reach about segmentation? It's like, it can be a lot. So like, how can we, what's like the most simple version that we can do and how do we work with the lists we have instead of being like, my gosh, I need new subscribers. So both of those things will be like hard launching in the summer, which is super fun.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (52:52.471)
Yes.

Emelie Sanders (53:10.301)
But as far as everything else, I honestly, you should just read my emails.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (53:14.914)
You really should, they are a joy. They're one of the few emails I open, because I'm like, I know this is going to be funny, or teach me something, or I just love them, so I do open them.

Emelie Sanders (53:25.518)
I love to hear that because I love writing them and you can join those if you go to passthecaso.com slash subscribe

Caitlan Siegenthaler (53:33.098)
That will also be linked in the show notes. all you gotta do is click the link. It will say sign up for Emily's emails, click, boom. well, I can't wait for people to hear this. Thank you so, so much for being here. It was a pleasure to have you.

Emelie Sanders (53:35.175)
the

Emelie Sanders (53:38.877)
Click boom. it. All right. Thank you.