From Cirque du Soleil to Somatic Depth Work: Ambition, Identity Deaths & the Courage to Surrender with Antonia Dolhaine

“Life is a dinner party—and healing is a descent.” – Antonia Dolhaine

Episode 86: The Parts That Drive Us, the Pain That Transforms Us & the Courage to Go Deeper with Antonia

In this episode of Return, Caitlan sits down with Antonia, a somatic depth coach and former Cirque du Soleil performer who now works with what she calls “uncommonly creative, ambitious, and committed humans.” Together, they explore the parts of us that chase excellence, the pain that often fuels our ambition, and the deep initiatory process of healing through Internal Family Systems (IFS) and somatic work.

Antonia shares how her creative and driven parts helped her survive a traumatic childhood, and how her pursuit of success on the world stage ultimately led her to a healing collapse, what she now calls her “cosmic chiropractic adjustment.” This episode is a raw and potent look at what happens when our bodies say no, how we surrender identities that no longer serve, and why slowing down might just be the bravest thing we ever do.

What You'll Learn in This Episode:

• Why the pursuit of success often stems from deeper parts needing love, safety, or validation
• How Antonia moved from performing on arena stages to becoming a grounded somatic depth coach
• The difference between achievement-driven ambition vs. self-led purpose
• What surrender really looks like during deep initiatory cycles (including breaking up with the love of her life and leaving the circus world)
• How Antonia blends somatic work, IFS, dreamwork, and active imagination to meet her clients at the roots
• Why supervision, community, and personal integrity are non-negotiables in depth work

Chapters:
01:30 – Antonia’s creative and ambitious parts as survival strategy
03:00 – The drive to perform: Antonia’s early years in circus arts
05:00 – When performance isn’t enough: the reckoning on stage
08:00 – Listening to the body when it says “no more”
10:00 – Healing isn’t linear: spiral paths and subtle shifts
14:00 – What we’re really seeking in achievement
19:00 – The surrender process: identity deaths & deep initiation
26:00 – Why supervision, integrity, and reciprocity matter
34:00 – Breaking up with the love of your life as a sacred act
38:00 – Somatic work, dreamscapes & psychedelic parts work 
44:00 – Therapist parts doing parts work: when your own parts try too hard
48:00 – The joy of witnessing & the honor of holding
50:00 – Dinner party parts, cosmic invoices & finding belonging
55:00 – Kurt Vonnegut, dark humor & absurd wisdom

Links & Resources:

• Antonia’s Website
• Antonia on Substack – check out her $8 workshops
• Apply to work with Antonia one-on-one here
• Connect with Antonia on Instagram

Transcript

Caitlan Siegenthaler (00:00.884)
Antonia, hello. Welcome to the Return Podcast. So excited to have you here. We match, so the energy is matching. The vibes are high. Welcome, welcome. I'm just thrilled that you could join us today.

Antonia (00:17.917)
Thank you so much. it's always a joy to connect with other IFS-oriented people. It hits different having a conversation on a podcast like this with someone who knows IFS.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (00:23.597)
Yeah.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (00:29.006)
think so too, I think so too, and we are definitely gonna get into parts work and parts language for sure. You specialize in working with uncommonly creative, ambitious, and committed humans because that's what you know best. You say you spent your entire life as one. Take us on this journey, like I love to know when these creative parts first came online for you when

your ambitious parts came online, like what do you remember about that growing up?

Antonia (01:05.331)
Well, I don't think this is a very uncommon story, but like many of my clients,

My creative and ambitious parts came online in response to, you know, I think they were already there. think they're innate to who I am to some degree. And they also came online because I, you know, grew up in a very, very challenging environment developmentally. And I was an only child to very unstable.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (01:24.162)
Yeah.

Antonia (01:36.893)
human beings were in charge in my care. And imagination and fantasy was a really safe place for me to retreat into. So that's where the seeds of my creativity were first planted. a lot of time in those, like in my inner world and I developed this really rich inner world, which obviously lends itself to the work that I do now, but for a long time, was a survival impulse.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (01:37.23)
Mm.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (01:57.666)
Yes.

Antonia (02:00.631)
And the ambition that came out of that was like, how do I get myself away from this as quickly as possible? And how do I prove my worth on the other side of the experience of unworthiness that I'm having in this space?

Caitlan Siegenthaler (02:15.195)
Well, something happened in my body when you said that. How do I prove my worth on the other side of this experience of unworthiness that I'm having? What is your relationship like to that part of you now?

Antonia (02:31.411)
We've gone on quite a journey together over the past decade. Even the trajectory that I was launched into with becoming obsessed with being on stage, because that was my first career as I was a professional circus artist with Cirque du Soleil, and that was a childhood dream for me. And I'm sure we'll get to this in the conversation, but for me,

Caitlan Siegenthaler (02:36.716)
Yeah.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (02:54.446)
Bye.

Antonia (02:59.227)
It took me a long time to realize that my drive to be on stage was not actually about performing, being, was about believing that if I was on stage in front of that many people who paid for a ticket to come see me, that that would mean something different about me than the experience that I'd had in my childhood environment. And a lot of my clients have similar kinds of things that drove them to that place. There was something, there was like a...

I, if I can do this, then I can prove that energy. And composting that has been really long and really challenging, but also really beautiful in a way that I could not have predicted coming into this work.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (03:31.17)
Yeah.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (03:52.514)
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I think, I don't know about for you, but particularly with IFS, it's like, don't know what's gonna, we do not know what's gonna happen. There is no, and I think that's why, even as a healing modality for myself, I really resonate with it because there are no parts of me that can hide, like perhaps they can in traditional talk therapy as well.

Antonia (04:19.225)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean that was certainly true for me. I entered traditional talk therapy not because I realized that I had pain that needed tending but because I was like, there's something wrong with me. I'm not grateful enough. I need this therapist to teach me how to be grateful enough for the life that I currently live because...

You know, I'm working for this big circus and you know, I have so many privileges and all those things are true, but what I was unable to see because my, you know, parts wouldn't allow me to see it at the time in order to stay attached to my primary caregivers and environment was that there was a lot of reasons that I had to be ungrateful that weren't being witnessed and that I wasn't able to witness. It was building the stability and the ego strength to be able to hold like, holy shit. There was a lot that happened to me that I

Caitlan Siegenthaler (05:10.368)
Yeah.

Antonia (05:13.173)
It makes sense why I've gotten here. truly, it's a similar story for a lot of my clients too. They've done a lot of talk therapy already and they're like, okay, I know, I get it now. I get why I am the way that I am. I get why I have this hunger, this drive, but that's not, I don't know what to do with that now. I have all this knowledge. How do I stop making myself?

Caitlan Siegenthaler (05:34.274)
Yes. Yes.

Antonia (05:39.987)
How do I stop torturing myself trying to get to this next level? How do I let go of what that next level means to me? How it feels like if I let that go, I'm gonna die. And it's like, well, we might die, but it's not actually the kind of death that you're expecting. You might not need to physically die here, but something needs to be disintegrated and allowed to be transformed into something new. when the...

Caitlan Siegenthaler (05:56.031)
us.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (06:01.634)
Yes.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (06:07.572)
you

Antonia (06:07.805)
fear drive for ambition is allowed to transform. Sometimes people end up being put on the path to this really chill life, but a lot of the time the ambition stays, it's just given a really new texture, a texture that comes from a drive for community and service and expansion rather than moving away or escaping from the pain.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (06:35.31)
Yeah, when you say that, if I think about your story and what you shared and that example, it makes me think about like it coming from a part that really wants this thing versus it coming from self of like, I wanna be in service, I wanna be supportive, I wanna create a community. Is that accurate?

Antonia (07:01.681)
I would say so, yeah. How I explain the embodied difference? Like, when I was still being driven by the fear-based part, the survival-based part towards...

Caitlan Siegenthaler (07:03.011)
Yeah.

Antonia (07:16.573)
towards greatness, towards excellence. Something I used to say all the time to my partner at the time was, if I slow down, I'm going to die. Like if I slow down, something's going to catch up to me. Like I'm just not going to, there was this breathlessness to it.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (07:31.97)
Yes.

Antonia (07:33.419)
And in the end, my body forced me to slow down. had an injury that I now call my Cosmic Chiropractic Adjustment because I realized how much, like I needed to just be totally debilitated, like I couldn't walk. And I was like bedridden for almost two years during that time. It forced me inwards. And the deep like death of that identity.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (07:42.934)
Huh.

Antonia (07:58.021)
It felt like I was just never gonna be happy again, but what birthed on the other side of that was this like, okay, like I've already had the experience of being in front of 10,000 people, them clapping for me and feeling absolutely nothing at all. So if that's not the thing, what is the thing? What is the thing?

Caitlan Siegenthaler (08:16.024)
What is that saying? Yeah. Okay. There's so much I want to say about this because I think I found that true in myself and clients that I work with. I'm sure you have examples of this too. Like if we don't listen to our body, our body will make us listen, right? Our body is going to at some point. I've had surgery on this shoulder because I kept dislocating it. And anyways, kept playing the sport that was...

in a highly abusive environment by this coach, but what would you say to the person who's listening, who is at the moment where their body is starting to give them those signals and maybe they can make the like change where they can go inside and listen and they're still holding that part that's like terrified, like I will die if I slow down.

Is there anything that you could speak to and say to them?

Antonia (09:18.449)
The first thing I say to them is it's okay if you're terrified. Your terror is not a problem that needs to be fixed. like a normal, it's really normal that you would feel that way. If the thing that has allowed you to get to this point and build an identity of safety, even if it's just superficial, like an external kind of shell of safety that is starting to feel too small and too tight and like it's restricting you from actually getting to that next level, it's okay.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (09:24.152)
Yeah.

Antonia (09:48.405)
that feels really, really scary. And the other thing that I'd say is you don't have to choose to leave that shell. And I think that's really important because there's this flavor of moral...

Caitlan Siegenthaler (09:50.682)
and

Caitlan Siegenthaler (09:58.894)
Nice.

Antonia (10:03.107)
superiority or obligation that can come in a lot of healing and growth spaces around like if you're not doing the work then like you know the work then you know and it's like this is a choice and unless it's really being treated as a choice not as an obligation then

Caitlan Siegenthaler (10:17.271)
Next.

Antonia (10:25.075)
you're not going to be able to actually ease into it from a place of curiosity. So that's the first thing that I tell anyone who comes through my space is like, don't have to choose to work with me. You don't have to choose the path you would work with me to pursue with me or with anyone. You don't have to do it. Like it is actually okay for you to choose to stay exactly where you are. And that usually creates a sense of panic, but also a relief.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (10:45.132)
Yes.

Antonia (10:54.607)
at the same time when I say that. And I wish someone had said that to me back then.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (11:00.704)
Mm-hmm. Yes. Yes. It makes me think... I think that is what makes me appreciate IFS, is like, we don't get rid of that part that's panicked or that wants to stay in the shell. We want to understand it, and we say it's okay to sit with it. And I think that...

process and thinking for me was really revolutionary for my system in terms of that permission. Because you're right, there is so much about like, we slap achievement onto healing as well, at least in the Western world and I was born and raised in the US, so like, there's that. Yeah, you talk about this moment where the pain caught up and

I want to know more about that. Was it when you found yourself, you know, with this serious injury? Was it before that? Like, what was that moment when the pain caught up?

Antonia (12:05.627)
It was before that, yeah, I kind of mentioned it earlier, but...

you know, having sacrificed a lot of my childhood to train to pursue this goal of being on stage with Cirque du Soleil. Like, you know, I wasn't going to a lot of birthday parties. I wasn't like hanging out with friends. I was training a lot of the time. I was in a half day program at school where I went to school until about like 12, 30 or 1 p.m. And then I would go off to gym and train for like five hours a day, come home, like rinse, repeat, you know.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (12:17.057)
Yeah.

Antonia (12:39.573)
my homework just bleary-eyed like that. And then I left to go to circus school at 17, and those days were really intense too. We started training at 8.30 in the morning. We'd finish at 6.30 PM, have half an hour for dinner, and then we'd go do college classes. I put in parentheses because honestly the college classes weren't super, it wasn't a very academically rich environment, we'll say, they were still, we still had to go. And then I left and I worked at a real estate agency after that from 9 PM until sometime.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (12:42.004)
gosh, yeah.

Antonia (13:09.493)
times 1 a.m. in the morning to gain enough money to pay my tuition, pay my bills, went home, slept for like five hours, and then kept going. And that basically went on until I got my first real gig. It was one of my first big jobs out of circus school, working as a performer on a big touring show internationally. And I remember my first bow.

somewhere in California.

There were like several thousand people there, the bow that I remember most was at the Staples Center. That was one of the first arenas that I put forward. And that arena is huge, right? There was like, yeah, easily 6,000, 7,000, like 10,000 people there. It was really big. I couldn't even see how far the audience went. And I was like, well, this is it. Like, this is what you worked so hard for. And, you know, I was completely covered head to toe in costume and makeup and everyone was clapping. And I was like, they're not clapping for me. They're clapping for the...

Caitlan Siegenthaler (13:50.081)
Huge.

Antonia (14:10.313)
for the character is just this total like, fuck this isn't it, you know? Like I don't feel anything. I have been working this hard for like 20 years in the hopes that this experience would provide.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (14:11.598)
Bye.

Antonia (14:26.151)
Yeah, that this particular context would provide a somatic experience that would absolve me from all the pain, that would anesthetize the pain that I was holding. I don't think I even realized how much pain I was carrying until that experience did not relieve it. So that was the first moment of reckoning where I was just like, shit, you know, what now?

Caitlan Siegenthaler (14:35.884)
Yeah.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (14:45.638)
Thank you for zooming us in even more on that moment because I'm just appreciating that and noticing that must be common, not that particular story, but for people, right? Whether it's like this relationship, if I just get married to this person, I will no longer feel this pain. If I just get this promotion, it's like that thing that we're, like if this,

Like you said earlier, if this, then this.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (15:20.397)
What?

moved you out of that space, the if this, then this. Like, did you have to sit there for a while? I mean, what kind of happens next? Because I'm imagining someone who's listening and they're like, they probably are getting a gut punch right now of like, wow, this might be me. What happened to Antonia after she was standing in the Staples Center and 10,000 people are cheering and there's that realization of like,

Antonia (15:40.147)
Mm-hmm.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (15:51.435)
I don't feel the way that I thought I was gonna feel.

Antonia (15:56.221)
would love to say that I got the hint straight away. But as is the case, I think with many, many people, it took many existential slaps in the face for me to like, be like, and I mean, that really went on for years because...

Caitlan Siegenthaler (16:08.686)
Yes. Bitch slaps, yes.

Antonia (16:18.769)
Yeah, I feel like a broken record. I almost feel trite saying this because it's been repeated so many times, but healing isn't linear and it's a spiral. I am still confronting ways that I do that if this, then that, in much subtler forms. I'm still doing that. And I'd say that there's now a critical mass of parts that are no longer using that strategy, that when I notice those subtler layers, I can be like, OK, this is...

Caitlan Siegenthaler (16:30.882)
Yes. Yes.

Antonia (16:46.663)
This is uncomfortable, I'm okay, you know?

Caitlan Siegenthaler (16:51.096)
Can I say something really quickly? Because while that is a saying that's over, the phrase is overused and I appreciate you naming that. And it is true that healing isn't linear. I think you just spoke to someone though, who you know that moment if someone is working with someone like you or someone like me, and there's that moment where it's like, I don't feel like I'm making any progress as a part.

Antonia (17:02.269)
Mm-hmm.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (17:19.094)
I think you just told whoever is listening that part of them, like, it may not feel that way, but look, look at the details. They get a little bit more nuanced. It gets a little bit more subtle. It gets a little bit more subconscious and then your response from self is different. You have a different relationship to it now.

Antonia (17:19.133)
Mm-hmm.

Antonia (17:42.355)
I have completely different relationship to it now. I just went through, or I'm just coming out of, really recently, coming out of the other side of another deep dissolution, plunge into the darkness of my unconscious and where all these illusions and old strategies still live. But even in the midst of that, which frankly did not feel subtle, I will say it did not feel subtle.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (17:45.325)
Yes!

Caitlan Siegenthaler (18:07.625)
Hehehehehe

Antonia (18:09.243)
Hellish, but I've been there so many times before and I've come out the other side of those periods so many times before knowing how much better and lighter and more solid my reality feels and my relationship to it feels that like there's a little it's a little bit delicious to me now like I kind of really like I relish the process and I remember how in my my first five years of

complex trauma recovery Before I was really in a place to offer this work or to even benefit from the kind of work that I do now where there's like a baseline level of stability The idea that this would just keep continuing that I would just keep going through these cycles in the spiral Felt like I was like, well, why the fuck am I doing this? You know, like why am I doing this then if it's just gonna keep going like

Caitlan Siegenthaler (18:45.954)
Yes.

Antonia (19:00.551)
What is the point? And I now know what the point is, and I'm really glad that I can share that from a place of deep personal knowing with my clients of just like, promise you, if you keep going with this, there will be a time where the plunge is as exciting as it is terrifying. And you will not want this process to end because it is so fertile.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (19:02.039)
Yes.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (19:22.456)
Wow.

Antonia (19:23.185)
and you will just keep meeting so many new parts of yourself and there will be so much more space for growth as you plunge into the depths where your roots are and give them more space to grow deeper.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (19:33.482)
Someone needed to hear that, right? Someone needed to hear someone who's plunged in there and been to the depths and is like, I get it, to say, yes, there's, it is hell for a long time until that stability is there.

And then once the stability is there, like it gets maybe 0.05 % lighter and then 0.0, you know, but slowly it stacks up. We both just did this with our hands at the same time.

Antonia (20:10.835)
It's slow until it starts to go like, well, I don't know about your experience with this, but I have found that like the better I get at engaging with these descents, the larger the leaps become. They're not small anymore. They get bigger and bigger. And those big leaps are not something that, there's something that I thought that I wanted before. was just like, I just want to have one big cathartic purge and then I'm going to be all perfectly healed. know, I'll get a sticker. I'll get like a thing to frame on my wall.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (20:21.933)
Yes.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (20:37.358)
Right? A trophy.

Antonia (20:41.467)
a trophy or something, but my system could not have handled, like I remember the times where I was presented with the things that I want, even now where I'm presented with the things that I want that my system cannot, does not yet have the strength to hold and how like jarring that can be in the system. Like to anyone listening, like.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (20:58.979)
Yes.

Antonia (21:01.555)
Know how deeply you want to make those big strides But also if your system can't hold them that can feel like hell to like too much heaven can feel like hell if your roots aren't deep enough, so

Caitlan Siegenthaler (21:11.246)
beautifully said. Stay with it. Something that strikes me that I'm really appreciating about you is like your commitment to your own personal work as someone who's a practitioner and holding this beautiful space for other people. What do you do? Like I imagine as a listener, I'm like, well, I want to know like how does she do this scuba diving for herself into the depth? Like who's holding you, I guess.

Antonia (21:40.155)
Hmm. Yeah, I have a really I have a lot of really great people holding me in a lot of different ways at this point at this point in my Growth journey career I I'm very blessed to have many people in my professional network that I have an excellent relationship with and we do a lot of trades so that feels great like when they're like

Caitlan Siegenthaler (22:00.088)
Amazing.

Antonia (22:04.627)
Girl, I don't know what the hell's going on. need your help. I don't know anyone who can sit with me in this without coming at it from some sort of optimization standpoint. I need someone to just sit in hell with me. So I'll then sit in hell with them. then vice versa. Sometimes I'm just like, I don't know who else to talk to. I do have some really wonderful supervisors. if there are things, supervision is best. Yeah.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (22:27.238)
Wait. Shout out to supervision. I still go to supervision too, a decade into the field. I think if you are a therapist healer listening, please get yourself some supervision. Thank you for naming that. I just got really excited, but like so important. Ditto.

Antonia (22:38.973)
vision.

Antonia (22:46.685)
I will never stop going to supervision. I can't imagine a world in which supervision is not the humbling and nourishing space that I need. Yeah, like, I mean, my first commitment to my clients is to commit to my own growth because what I have noticed over and over is every time I plunge into a new layer of hell for myself and develop a saintly intimacy to whatever is there, like...

I don't claim

nourishment that they need to go that deeper layer to.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (23:43.978)
A thousand percent I can tell you work with such integrity from going to supervision to committing to the work yourself and

I've experienced that myself as well, is like when I go deeper or work with this part that's kind of been circling or is now kind of in a very subconscious strategy rather than like a louder strategy and then I get the support that I need and I do, it's like, yep, now we're going even deeper. Now we have these depths. it reminds me of that also probably overused like saying that's like, you can only take someone as deep as you've taken yourself, you know?

Antonia (24:22.503)
Thank you.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (24:23.153)
It is that for me.

Antonia (24:25.969)
I find that to be true 100 % and I feel like that's a saying that's misunderstood quite often. I think it's misunderstood to mean that you can only help someone with goals that you have personally conquered, like external goals. Like if you haven't figured out how to start a multi-million dollar studio, design studio.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (24:40.462)
Mmm.

Antonia (24:54.291)
putting on shows for these like headlining rock stars that you can't help someone else do the same thing. And it's like, it's not about that actually. It's about the roots, the depths that are required for anyone to hold goals of that size. I have.

I have conquered some pretty serious things that might look invisible on the outside just in terms of like the external circumstances of my life. But like I work with people who are in very high stakes, like dealing with really high stakes creative projects all the time. And I may not personally do that in my life, but what I have done is recover from.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (25:31.726)
Yes.

Antonia (25:38.693)
an enormous amount of trauma that most people could not possibly imagine and I would never wish on anyone. And that's kind of, it's like the opposite side of the spectrum, but like the, what was required for me to move through that is equal in a way to what I'm supporting my clients to develop within themselves that will allow them to hold that level of creation in the external world.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (26:00.584)
Ugh. I almost don't want to respond because it was so beautifully said. I'm like, okay, we can just leave that there for people. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. And I think this is my like biggest rub with some of these like, you know, meme-ified things on the internet is like, you can only go as far. And it's like, yeah, it's not about goals though. In fact, I've made my

business now, I have a private therapy practice that is a separate business and then I have a business where I work with entrepreneurs using IFS and human design because of this. Because of like, yes, if you're gonna hold this goal, amazing, but let's make sure that energetically you are showing up as you and all of your parts and in your self energy and all of those things that you need to

Yeah, if that's what you want to do, do that thing, but you don't need to do it in a way that like so-and-so on the internet said, and here's their 10 steps, because that's not your story or your truth. And so thank you for saying that.

Antonia (27:13.607)
You're welcome. lot to say about this too, because I am often the umpteenth person that...

My clients end up seeking because they have gone and seen all those other people for they're like, yeah I paid ten thousand dollars for like a three month package to work with this celebrity coach who You know said that they were going like they were really shiny on the outside and they had this really sparkly Instagram presence and they were such good speakers and we actually got into the container and it just felt like so much was left on the table because it was like all right your steps it's so it's so Seductive to believe that there's a ten step system and I mean that's part of the disillusionment often as people are just like

Caitlan Siegenthaler (27:24.898)
Ditto.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (27:43.063)
Mm.

Antonia (27:51.919)
like, I just an idiot? Do I not know how to like do this? If this person in charge of these at this level couldn't help me, what the hell? know? So something that I often say is like, okay, you know, it's true that some...

Caitlan Siegenthaler (27:56.078)
Thanks.

Antonia (28:10.937)
Sometimes it is an external fix. Sometimes you do need strong systems and you need like strategy and that is like we're not discounting that. It's not that that's not important. But also there's only so far that optimization can go before what is actually required as an initiation. And our Western society is really not equipped or oriented towards initiation at all. And that's really what depth work is, is initiation. It's, you know, it's...

Like I so badly want to reference that myth of Inanna's descent, you know, where, I don't know if anyone knows this story, but it's this ancient Sumerian story where this goddess goes to visit her sister in the underworld and the condition for her going down is she has to like, she's stripped at every layer until she is just this corpse being hung on a hook. I mean, you wanted to ask what...

Caitlan Siegenthaler (29:05.674)
Yes. Yeah. Yes. I was like, ooh, I think we're getting into this. I'm excited.

Antonia (29:06.555)
Yeah, Negretto is all about.

Thank you.

which is every time you go through a deep descent, you will be asked to surrender something, surrender a part of your identity. And that doesn't mean killing it. Some people think they think surrender means exile, that they're exiling a part of themselves, pushing it further away. And it's not about that. It's about creating.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (29:25.838)
Okay.

Antonia (29:37.867)
space to let go of what actually isn't true, that there's a deeper truth beyond things that you hold as creating a certain level of security for you that you're being invited into. I mean, it really can feel like being a filleted corpse on a hook in the underworld being gnawed on by... I'm really selling this, I? Depth work is a really hard sell, I think, for a lot of people.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (29:42.284)
Mmm.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (29:57.101)
Great.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (30:05.942)
It is a hard sell, but here's what I appreciate you saying is like, we need to be aware of the process of the depth. Yes, we're going in there and this is why you get a guide, right? This is why you work with someone like you who's moving with integrity, who's walked the path, who gets their own support and who can be with you in that, right?

Antonia (30:14.824)
Hmm.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (30:34.614)
It's scary to imagine yourself kind of just hanging on a hook and you're not there alone. And that's what I want people to remember in that vision as well is you're not there alone and you're there with someone whose system is been through trainings and support and all of the things to guide you. They're in the perfect position to do that. What makes me curious though, I wanna...

I do want to get into the details of this phase. I loved your sub stack on it and your, which I will link in the show notes at the end. We'll talk more about that. But when someone's going into this phase, you said you have to surrender something. Can you, for anyone listening, like, is there an example of maybe your own stuff or a client or someone you know? Like, what are we surrendering?

Antonia (31:33.287)
really depends on the person. It depends on the person and it depends on the descent. I feel like it's, yeah, I want to, none of my clients have given me permission to speak to specific pieces or work on this podcast. We'll just stick with my own examples. But things I have surrendered fairly recently were a four and a half year relationship to the love of my life. Like we really touched God in that relationship and that was,

Caitlan Siegenthaler (31:46.337)
Of course, yeah.

Antonia (32:03.079)
that was, we reached a point mutually where we turned towards each other and we were just like, shit, like we have to, this is what we're being called to do and we don't understand why. Because on paper, this breakup makes no sense and it still doesn't make sense to a lot of our friends. they're like, you...

Like you're so compatible and you work so well together and like even explaining the reasons for our breakup is extremely layered and esoteric and we just have stopped bothering to try and explain, but it felt so real to us that after, you know, four and a half years of like deep collaboration to create a relationship that was a really a garden for the selves that we were becoming that at a certain point, no matter what we tried to reconfigure the shape of that garden to accommodate both of our becoming,

hit a wall, was like the garden bed became too small and we realized that the only option that we had left after, yeah, like two and a half years of conscious work of trying to reconfigure was to separate. And that is, that can be confusing. I'm really glad that that was a surrender that I made this far into my work where I was able to go like, okay, I've paid some pretty steep cosmic invoices in the past and it's turned out okay.

I'm just going to have to trust that this one's going to turn out OK, too, and that we'll work it out, and that we will navigate a breakup where no one's the bad guy and we both still really love and respect each other. I've given up my past career in the circus. That was a surrender. That was a big identity death for me because I learned through my time in the elite sport world that my worth was tied to my physical extraordinariness.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (33:43.052)
Yes.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (33:50.796)
Yes.

Antonia (33:50.991)
And when I was in bed with that injury and my chronic fatigue and my diagnosis of fibromyalgia and I like was sleeping eight, 18 hours a day because I had no other choice. My body physically wouldn't let me stay awake for longer than like a few hours a day. And in that time, I was still going to university and starting this business and all these different things. you know, I had to I was forced to die to the identity of my worthiness is attached to my physical extraordinarily because I was not physically extraordinary in that moment.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (33:58.083)
room.

Antonia (34:20.935)
at all. was an elite potato, you know?

I'm laughing now because things have turned out great, but never in my wildest imagination would I, if I went back in time seven years ago and told the version of myself that I was then that I would be happily doing the work that I am now, I would feel I probably have an existential breakdown because it didn't conform to my idea of the excellence or the shininess that I believed was the thing that I was meant to do.

I'm on this side now knowing how fulfilled I feel and how in purpose I feel and how excited I am for the goals that I still have that I'm moving towards that are coming from a much more self-led place. that death, that surrender still had to happen first.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (34:59.799)
Yeah.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (35:12.566)
Hmm. think that's really important for people to hear that that death or surrender had to happen first. Immediately I have a part of me that is like, this takes a lot of courage. To do.

Antonia (35:27.163)
It does, it's kind of going expert mode. It's expert mode, you know? Like people come in with these goals that are very externally focused a lot of the time and one of the questions I ask on my application form is, okay, if let's say that you've stepped into that reality, what...

what experiences internally or externally are available to you now that feel unavailable to you without that happening. And that's what we focus on cultivating in our work together. Because when we focus on that and expanding their access to those somatic states and whatever and working with whatever is in the way of that, like whatever physical, emotional, relational or creative tension is...

you know, in the way of that, deeper truths emerge that take them sometimes in some very different directions than they were expecting. And the goals they came in with become kind of redundant. And that can be a death too, of being like, I don't know if this is actually the thing that's gonna make me happy anymore. And that's really scary. Is it safe to be someone who doesn't want this thing that I thought was gonna be the thing that created the safety that I'm now starting to experience that's pulling me in a new direction?

Caitlan Siegenthaler (36:21.346)
Mmm, yes.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (36:40.216)
Yes. It's like what we were saying earlier, you don't ever really know what's gonna happen until you get in there and you start looking around and you see. It kind of reminds me of, we keep using this metaphor, scuba diving and kind of going into the plunge of the ocean maybe. And we don't know what's gonna be kind of on the ocean floor. You can be like, I hope to see this sort of oceanic creature, but who knows what's going to happen.

Antonia (37:07.923)
Thank you.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (37:09.44)
What do you find in your work that helps people cultivate the courage to say, wow, I thought I wanted this thing, but I'm gonna need to surrender that in order to live this truthfulness?

Antonia (37:29.811)
The first thing I'd say is that people don't tend to find me who don't already have that courage. The people who don't have it tend to either stay with, keep investing in those external kind of optimization type strategies, or they just give up.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (37:38.358)
Ooh, bam!

Antonia (37:55.891)
So if they find me and there's still that deeper something calling to them, they usually already have it. There's that hunger is usually already there. The second thing I say is by the time we're there where the courage is needed, they kind of already feel too deep in to get out. it's you can't really...

You can always backtrack. People can always backtrack. I will never hold someone in it. I'm not gonna trap, it's not conducive to anyone building trust in their internal authority if I am making it impossible for them to leave a container. But by the time they're already there, like they're there. So it's like, I'm with you here and I'm here and you're in this and why don't we just find out and see.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (38:31.224)
Yeah.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (38:37.772)
Yeah, I love that and like use that curiosity piece. So you blend IFS parts work with somatic work and these days somatic work.

Antonia (38:52.657)
mean anything at all. Yeah. Yeah.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (38:54.222)
Correct. I'd love to hear more about your process because I have the sense, I mean I already can sense that you have so much integrity in your clients, like there's a lot of alignment in your work. So talk to me about the process, you know?

Antonia (39:09.959)
Yeah.

It's very intuitive and responsive. So I don't work the exactly the same with any single person. Some people are more visual who come into my practice. Some people are more spiritual. Some people are really, really like, like afraid of spirituality. And I get that because I, one of the pieces of my childhood, I really grew up in the dark side of the new age world. So a lot of what is spiritual, I put in quotation marks, that's actually just manipulation, power fucker, cult psychology, that kind of thing.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (39:18.286)
Yes.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (39:38.902)
Yes.

Antonia (39:41.829)
understand people's weariness and I think the very intellectual, pragmatic people do also feel safe to come to me because I can hold them in that. I'm like, you're getting a bit of woo, but I'm not trying to convert you to anything. I don't care. Yeah. So it really depends, but the core of it is that we are...

Caitlan Siegenthaler (39:57.196)
I feel that in my bones.

Antonia (40:06.893)
Helping them develop a connection enough of a connection enough seeds of a connection to their nervous system that We can start to listen For the voices in their unconscious mind speaking through these different sensations in their nervous system that they have tuned out so

depending on where someone finds me, it's rare that someone finds me anymore who has no connection at all to their body, because most of the people that I work with have done a lot of therapy already. there's like, and they're usually kind of, there's a whole other thing where they're trapped in the analytical narrative that they created in therapy, there's then more to do around breaking them out of the safety that that provides, that still keeps them in disconnection from themselves. so it's a bit...

Caitlan Siegenthaler (40:35.715)
Yes.

Antonia (40:56.864)
It can be a bit slower at first if that, there's still quite a disconnection there, but from there we...

sort of almost start with somatic experiencing and then go into the active imagination that IFS offers where we can begin to listen to what's speaking through that sensation either through images, memories, sometimes a phrase or a sound or like a movement and we create complete space for that. We follow it and we follow it and I think this is really important and gets missed in a lot of I think IFS spaces in my experience is like there can be this there

Caitlan Siegenthaler (41:12.301)
Yes.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (41:21.262)
Mm-hmm.

Antonia (41:34.501)
There can be practitioners that have a part that are trying to do parts work on someone. And there's an agenda to get somewhere with the client in the parts work process. And so we try and step out of that altogether too and be like, it's okay if nothing happens. It's okay if nothing happens. If nothing changes in the session, giving your body the option to say no to change is actually part of creating enough safety for change to occur. So it's just a completely open space for exploration.

we'll go into that IFS parts for process. Sometimes we follow it to the end using IFS. Other times I find IFS can almost be a little bit too formulaic or rigid and keep someone a bit too much in their thinking mind. And in those cases, I will flip into more focusing oriented dream work, but while awake.

So letting someone enter an image deeply, we of almost let go of the idea of parts completely and just let them enter this active imagining dreamscape and explore and interact with the different pieces of the landscape or the different characters that are appearing. if this all sounds very psychedelic, because it truly can be. Like many of my clients describe what we do as psychedelic psychotherapy without the psychedelics.

or one client, two clients describe it as some wild talking shit. Because yeah, it just takes you to these places where it's like that makes no sense and you come out of it and you're like, where did I just go?

Caitlan Siegenthaler (43:09.378)
Yes, yes, but you went to places that you would have otherwise never explored to find the answers that have always lived deep within yourself. Thank you also for saying the thing that you said about...

Antonia (43:24.227)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (43:30.254)
the formulaic-ness of IFS and practitioners having a part that wants to do parts work. This was something that supervision really helped me discover about myself. Like I remember coming out of IFS level one training and you know they have those like sheets and it's like the questions and like flesh out the part, find the part, and of course you need to learn the model and understand things. And I remember I have the...

world's best supervisor. I hope she always continues supervision, because I'm never leaving her. But she's amazing. And I remember being like, Chrissy, like, it feels weird to follow this checklist. And she was like, Caitlin, that's a part of you that wants to follow the checklist. Like, you're not supposed to be doing that. And it's like, I could just see like, therapists parts in me just trying so hard to get it right for the client. And the minute I let that go,

And I was still in like swap sessions mostly, like doing it on other practitioners. The minute I let that go, I was like, holy shit, there's this like whole intuitive space for my intuition to drop in here and play and use my strongest gifts and senses. And so I know a lot of therapists listen to this podcast, particularly ones that are just getting into the field. And I think you're giving them permission to say like,

Antonia (44:31.027)
Mm-hmm.

Antonia (44:38.429)
Mm-hmm.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (44:53.23)
You are bringing something to the space to you. You're bringing your own gifts and that's your magic when you work with your clients. Although I don't want to put that on you because that's not exactly what you said, but that's what I took in.

Antonia (44:58.949)
and

Antonia (45:04.723)
I feel that completely. like there are, I know that my way of working or my, intuitive space that I hold isn't the right space for everyone. Like that's fine. You know, that's fine. And it's always so exciting to me when we hit a point of friction or boredom.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (45:06.402)
Okay.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (45:14.582)
Yeah.

Antonia (45:24.515)
in session with clients and I know that it's because there's something in me that's trying to be worked through through the session with the client and I get to bring that through work on it and it's just like But yeah, I work with the modalities that

Caitlan Siegenthaler (45:34.595)
Yes.

Antonia (45:38.609)
resonated most with that resonate most with me in my own personal work and that includes dream work some clients do bring their dreams in and we work with them either in a Focusing oriented way like a very embodied way we re-enter the dream in the in the present tense and kind of navigate it Let it play itself out sometimes we use it in a parts work way and we do a parts work session within the dream and it just there's so many different So many different ways to work within that but the the end result is you know, of course whatever whatever parts of them

Caitlan Siegenthaler (45:42.84)
Nice.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (45:59.576)
Bye.

Antonia (46:08.553)
they are in disconnection to or in opposition to in their system are usually holding so much.

Vitality that's being tied up just tied up in that oppositional relationship and when that's free You know just to like round out what the point of doing all of this wild wacky work Conscious is when that when that energy is then liberated So much opens up on the other side and I think even my clients Can't even I can be very surprised by what opens up on the other side of that sometimes how things that felt really far away and like they would need months and months more work

Caitlan Siegenthaler (46:36.418)
Yes.

Antonia (46:42.075)
in order for us to move towards them suddenly become accessible like that. the opposite can happen, things that feel like it's only a tiny gap to fill and bringing us into deep, deep, deep, deep, deep places that we just, they didn't know were there. I couldn't sense they were there when they first came into the space. And sometimes those short spaces we realize are actually, okay, there's actually two years of work to do here. And there's just no amount of like...

expertise I can bring into the space that can make that shorter. It's just it is whatever it is. Either is way faster than we are expecting around the same time we're expecting, way shorter, like yeah, way longer. It's so fascinating. It's so fascinating to work with these individual systems and then just watch the way that

the unfolding of their system just inevitably ripples into these other parts of their lives. it's just like systems are systems. touch everything. their community, like their relationships change, their communities change, their artistic practices change, like the direction of their business and who they serve often changes. It's so, yeah. I'm just addicted to finding out. I'm just there with my popcorn a lot of the time, like what's going to happen?

Caitlan Siegenthaler (47:36.781)
Yes.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (47:46.946)
Yeah, that's also.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (47:53.704)
Totally. And I think I say that to people in my life a lot, to clients when appropriate of like, it is truly an honor to be a witness in this process, you know? It is really, really an honor to get to, yeah, go deep with other people's systems and to just be sitting there and witnessing and, I mean, just be. Obviously we're, we're doing stuff in there, but yeah.

Antonia (48:20.103)
Completely. Yeah. It is so funny how many, I don't know if you experienced this, but how many of our clients often feel like, like we're just saying that. Oh, you have to say that it's just an honor. That's such a coaching therapist thing that you have to say. And it's just like, no, no, I'm a snoop. Like.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (48:39.278)
Yeah.

Antonia (48:39.601)
Like, I wanna know. I'm here because I like this and that might feel totally incomprehensible to you because you're suffering, your your corpse is on the hook, but like, I'm having a great time. So like, let's keep going, you know?

Caitlan Siegenthaler (48:51.116)
Yes, yes. think something my partner often says to me is he's like, I love how much you love your work. And that to me is like, resonates so deeply with my parts because I haven't always loved my work. I made a huge pivot. Like you left something that you trained many, many, many, many, many, many, many hours for, you know, that is like the pinnacle of performance and all of those things. And it's like,

Antonia (48:58.332)
Mm-hmm.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (49:21.23)
Yeah, but to me, I don't know how you feel about this, Antonia, but like, this is the point of my life. Like, this is the purpose. I am a mother and a partner and a daughter and all of those things, and I am privileged to do this level of work, and I love it.

Antonia (49:29.499)
Mm-hmm.

Antonia (49:42.079)
Completely, completely agree. And I'm so glad you feel the same way. I'm so glad to feel, yeah, like being on a podcast interviewed by someone is just kind of like, this is just a day job for me. You know, this wouldn't be a very good connection. Yeah.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (49:52.782)
Right? would not be. I think it does take that. And I do want to say, similarly to you, clients often find me, particularly after they've had a really disorienting experience with someone in this space, of, this really impactful thing happened, or, yes, I was working with this coach and it was really disillusioned. And so,

Antonia (50:09.299)
Mm-hmm.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (50:19.136)
I hope that people here, like here are two practitioners sitting in front of you. There are many, many, many, many more of us and don't give up. You will find the person who your system and their system are just like compatible. I just had this image of like, you know how when you scuba dive, which I don't, I'm not going to pretend like I know a whole lot about scuba diving, but what I do know is I don't think you're supposed to do it alone and you have like the little person next to you on the rope.

Antonia (50:42.257)
Yeah.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (50:48.14)
that's the image I'm getting. That's kind of what I'm seeing you tell me in your work is like, you're the like person that's like on the other side because it's not safe to scuba dive alone in case something happened. Good, good, good, good. Help me.

Antonia (50:48.369)
and

Antonia (51:00.749)
Mm-hmm. I think if we're gonna roll with this analogy, I do know a little bit about scuba diving.

My dad, not because I've never skimmed a dive, but my dad did. yeah, like you can't go down to, you can't rush. Like you can't go down to the depths really quickly. You can't come up from the depths really quickly. Otherwise you get the bends. It has to be like, a little bit higher, a little bit higher, a little bit more integration at each level, literally with diving where you're, I think it's like the levels of oxygen in your blood are recalibrating so you don't.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (51:24.79)
Yes.

Antonia (51:37.893)
explode your brain. See, I don't actually know that much about it. think, but I'm like, yeah.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (51:41.906)
I mean, that sounds legit to me. Yes, I think that's it. Okay, I really want to ask you this question just because I think it's fun and I'm obsessed with the language that you use to describe things. You say that life is a dinner party and your joy is to play host at the Seed of Change. Which parts of you would you invite to a dinner party right now and why?

Antonia (52:05.679)
yes, I can answer this so easily.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (52:08.876)
Yes.

Antonia (52:10.491)
One of the many cosmic invoices I have paid repeatedly is forming these deep community connections and then my work pulling me in a very different direction, not like exploding under the community because the community is so bad and like, you I need to cut off these toxic connections. Although there was a phase of my life where that was certainly true. There have been so many times where I've been pulled out of community again. And I'm in one now where I'm like part of the breakup was I moved away from Vancouver and I'm now living in

Caitlan Siegenthaler (52:13.774)
Thank

Antonia (52:40.475)
up and I'm starting over trying to figure out where to plant my roots more permanently and I have parts of me because I was an only child growing up in this very neglectful abusive home that are so worried that they don't belong anywhere and I moved so many times growing up too like 22 times before I even left

home to go to circus school when I was 17, we'd moved like 22 times. There was just so much movement. And there's this part of me that's just like, am I never gonna find, am I never gonna find like a seat at the table where I'm, where I can stay until the meal is over, you know? Where I can stay for the sober messa, where there's that conversation that flows into the night and we're just sort of like scooping up the dredges of the ice cream in the bowl. That's the part of me that has been coming up that I have been spending a lot of time with since I have.

been in this new chapter that I've really been inviting to the table. And if there was a literal table, that's definitely the first one that I would invite just to help her feel like she's not just an extra seat. We're sort of squidging in there like there's a place card with her name handwritten on it for her.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (53:49.902)
Yeah, I thank you for sharing that I have a part that resonates somewhat with her and like wanted to tell her she's welcome at our table anytime she can come and just sit and yeah, really really I

You probably don't know this, but I, my partner is Swiss. So I've lived in Europe and I've lived in the U S and we're like trying to explore also where we belong. And so I'm working with a lot of those parts right now of like, where do I want to plant roots and where, where fits me and you know, all of those things. So I just see her and yeah.

Antonia (54:34.993)
Hmm, Seek and Caller, that makes sense for a Swiss last name.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (54:37.87)
Yes, yeah. It means winning coin in Swiss German.

Antonia (54:43.731)
I mean, that's a pretty dope last name. You're gonna have a German last name. Winning coin, winning the game of life. Love that so much.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (54:46.87)
Right? Winning coin.

I want to know too, who is your ideal dinner party guest in like IRL? Like if you could talk with a person, who would it be?

Antonia (55:03.187)
Kurt Vonnegut, for sure. Kurt Vonnegut is an iconic writer. He's no longer with us, but he, yeah, like a classic American writer. he's so, he's one of the only, no, not the only, I'm a big literary nerd, but he's so funny. He's so funny. He's so darkly funny. He was trained.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (55:05.07)
I don't know who that is. Who is that?

Caitlan Siegenthaler (55:29.902)
I love dark humor.

Antonia (55:31.727)
Yeah, he was trained as a journalist and that really you can tell like in the way that he writes because it's

There is just something I really struggle with as a writer is excessive embellishment. And when I read one of his books, his sentences just punch you in the gut. They're just like, ugh. And you're like, god damn, that's good sentence. he did a few guest lectures at universities over the years. And you should definitely YouTube Kurt Vonnegut, like the architecture of a story or the shape of a story. yeah, for sure, I feel like he'd have a lot of really great anecdotes

And it just seems like a bit of like that kind of wise cracking uncle that just really makes jokes for himself. Just kind of that energy. So 100 % Kurt Vonnegut, no question. That's my answer.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (56:20.62)
I love it.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (56:24.578)
Yes. I'm gonna go YouTube him. Thank you for that. always looking. I've read some real shit books lately, so I'm like really looking.

Antonia (56:32.691)
Let me set you up. Let me set you up. The Sirens of Titan is like one of my favorite books ever. Cat's Cradle. Yeah. Slaughterhouse. Yeah, just all of it. I haven't yet to read a book of his. They're so absurd. They're so absurd. You're sitting there like, what is going through this man's brain? Like, what's going to happen? It's just they're so absurd, but they're so well written.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (56:37.229)
yes.

I'm ready, listen.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (56:54.69)
That's what I need.

Antonia (56:54.707)
Like, he says something super profound and you can tell that he believes it, but he wants you to think that he doesn't believe it because it's just cloaked in so much, just like nothing means anything, so here you go. Please enjoy.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (57:07.928)
Thank you. Thank you so much for that. I could talk to you forever. This has been such a pleasure to have you on the podcast. What do have going on? Tell all the listeners where they can find you, how they can connect with you, how they could potentially work with you if you have space.

Antonia (57:23.985)
Yes, so currently I have two one-to-one spaces open. I'm only working one-to-one currently, although I do also offer $8 workshops monthly-ish through my Substack. So the best ways to get in touch with me are through my website or through Substack. I have an Instagram presence. It is very sparse. I am moving away from Instagram because Instagram is whack. But Substack website prices.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (57:36.781)
Awesome.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (57:46.136)
Hello.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (57:49.91)
So whack. Okay, great. All of those will be linked in the show notes. Please, please, please go check out Antonia. And if they want to work with you one-on-one, do they apply? Like, is there a link they can apply?

Antonia (58:05.021)
There's a link to apply on my website, but I encourage people to just, yeah, apply whether or not you think that you're even ready to begin. I give away a lot of, I just love meeting with people and exploration calls with me are not sales calls. So you are not tied into anything, will not be made to feel weird or like there's like some sort of underhanded sales thing.

Caitlan Siegenthaler (58:21.537)
without.

Antonia (58:27.791)
My goal is really to meet with you, understand your system, see if we can zoom out and get a little clarity on where you are and where you want to be. And either I will be part of that journey or I won't, or I will refer you to someone who might be a better fit. But the goal is just to like, where is your system at? What does it mean?

Caitlan Siegenthaler (58:45.72)
Beautiful. How it should be in says a part of Caitlin. Well, thank you so, so much. All of those links will be in the show notes. And yeah, thank you for being here.

Antonia (58:48.847)
it should be.

Antonia (58:57.351)
Thank you so much.