EP 52: How to Raise Connected, Confident Kids — Shame-Free Parenting in Recovery with Wendy Snyder

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This episode is a deep, honest conversation about parenting, recovery, nervous system healing, and what it really takes to raise strong-willed kids without losing yourself in the process.

I’m joined by Wendy Snyder, certified positive parenting educator, family life coach, and founder of Fresh Start Family. Wendy shares her powerful story of hitting a breaking point in early motherhood, dismantling shame-based parenting patterns, and rebuilding her life, her parenting, and her identity from the inside out.

We dig into:

• The secret to strong-willed kids
• How shame, blame, and nervous system reactivity show up in parenting (and how to break the cycle)
• What firm and kind, connection-based parenting actually looks like
• The surprising overlap between parenting, recovery, and personal transformation
• Why teenagers don’t have to be “terrible” — and how to build real connection that lasts

This conversation is for you if you’re a mom who loves her kids fiercely but knows there has to be a better way — a way that allows you and your kids to feel regulated, connected, and authentic together.

You are whole.

Your kids are whole.
And confident, connected parenting in recovery doesn’t require perfection — it requires your presence, compassion, and regulation.

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Love Wendy as much as I do? Connect with her here:

Fresh Start Family Website / Fresh Start Family Show Podcast

Free gift just for GWR listeners- 3 Secrets to Thriving with Strong Willed Kids

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DM me on Instagram what you’d LOVE and we’ll celebrate + amplify your next level success in recovery together.

Hey gorgeous.

I love you.

I'm so proud of you.

And I believe in your ability to create a life you absolutely love.

Transcript

0:00

Welcome to the Girls Who Recover podcast with Dana Hunter Fradella, where incredible women just like you, go to transform life's biggest setbacks into your most powerful comebacks so that you can live a life you. Love. I'm your host, Dana Hunter Fradella, transformational coach and founder of Girls Who Recover, and my mission is to pull back the curtain on our mistakes, failures, shame and personal disasters, and light the way for how to use those to create your biggest and most gorgeous comebacks. Follow the show now. Grab your iced coffee and turn up the volume for girls who recover. Let's light it up. Welcome back. Gorgeous. I am so pumped to introduce to you today's brilliant, fabulous guest, Wendy Snyder. And Wendy is a certified positive parenting educator and a family life coach. And she's, her work is inspiring parents to learn and grow through connection based firm and kind strategies. She's also the host of the Fresh Start, family Show, and founder of Fresh Start Family. Wendy helps parents ditch the threats, yelling and harsh punishments so they can live life as a joyful and confident parent with kids that listen and cooperate. Hello, where have you been all my life. Wendy, welcome to Girls Who Recover. Oh my gosh, I am so excited to be here. Dana, thank you for having me. I'm really pumped for our conversation today. Great. Tell us a little bit about you. Anything I didn't mention that you'd love our listener to know and love about you? And then I'll ask you the warmup question. Yeah, well, I think, um, you read my bio. Thank you so much for highlighting my work and what I'm passionate about. I guess what, what's not included in there is I'm a mama of two. I've got now a 14, almost 15-year-old little boy and a 17, almost 18-year-old little girl. And what a joy. I've been doing this work now for about a decade. I've owned Fresh Start family and been building this. Um, organization and been doing the work within my own home of firm and kind connection based parenting after we did like a full 180 with our parenting, um, right around the age of three when my little girl was three. Uh, we switched our model, turned the ship around, so to speak, got out of the, the suffering states that we were in, which we'll talk about my story in a little bit. Um, but so we've been doing this work for about 15 years, but we've found that so much of the clients we specialize in, or the students that really I think migrate to us the fastest are the ones that have at least one strong-willed kid. The strong-willed kids is my story. That's the reason why I'm here as an educator today. It's the reason why I've dedicated my whole life to this work is because strong-willed kids are like the most special breed of humans. And they are often our next generation of leaders, which my little girl was at the age of three. But I had been conditioned to see her much differently. And it wasn't till I learned to really see her as a blessing versus a curse that everything changed for us. But, um, we, we have a lot of families who come to find us because they just really get kind of taken down to their knees and are just kind of scratching their head thinking like, what am I doing wrong? What's wrong with my kid? What's wrong with me? And really, there's nothing wrong. They're just been blessed with this incredible powerhouse of a human being who has a very strong desire to feel powerful, which is one of the basic needs we teach here about human behavior. And, um, and yeah, so, so much of our work is specialized around that. And now, um, that my kids are older, it's really fun because I get to have that long-term vision, like that long-term viewpoint, right? Like, I think when you're in the beginning of this work, you're kind of just trying stuff and you're like, okay. This theory, let's see how this goes. Right? And then to be someone now who's implemented the full blown theories from, from the time Stella was in toddlerhood or preschool all the way now till she's about to graduate from high school, has just been committed to be a, a division one beach volleyball athlete at a top 10 school in the nation, which is because of her strong will, right? But to see, to have that whole gamut of like the, of this works, right? It's not just some fluffy, you know, be kind and compassionate and see how, see how it goes. It, this stuff is very powerful. And so nowadays I've been referring to my work as a powerful parenting strategy or a system. Um, but it's, it's just beautiful and I'm so passionate and I'm so happy to be here. I can see that my work in the world is also identifying within like 30 seconds, are you actually doing the work that you love in the world? And I was like, eight seconds. She is. You're so lit up and I'm, so, I'm excited to dig in. And of course I have three daughters, uh, and I can't tell if one is strong-willed or they all are, or maybe it's just a reflection of me. And I also, what just came through is, oh my gosh, these strong-willed kiddos, especially girls, are end up in the girls. You recover community, which is, wow. Maybe we can, maybe we can hit like what that looks like, but heck yeah. So warmup question is, when is the last time that you felt fully in love with your life? Just tell us a moment where you were like, oh my gosh, I love my life. Oh gosh. It's hard to choose. But I'll just, there's no wrong answer, so I'll just throw out one. Um, I love to be in the ocean surfing, um, especially with my boys. So my husband's my best friend of 30 years. We've been married 25 years, is upcoming June. So we're almost a quarter of a century. And, um, my little guy gets in the ocean with, he's a surfer. Terry's a surfer. We're all surfers. And I'd say it was probably just last weekend, the sun was shining here in California where it feels like a, a pretty dark season of life in California right now with what's happening in America. And so there's just been a lot of emotions and tender hearted moments of sadness and grief. Um, but that was a moment where I was catching waves and Taryn was so happy and Terry was so happy. And it was just a beautiful, warm day of connection with my family. And, um, just being in the elements, uh, that God's given us of the beautiful Pacific Blue Ocean that's finally warm here in San Diego. You know, people to come visit here in June or May, and I'm like, do not, it's gonna be freezing. You're gonna freeze at the beach. But finally, July, August, September, it starts to warm up. And so, yeah, that was probably one of the last moments that I was like, this is living, this is exactly where I wanna be. And I'm so thankful for this exact moment. My favorite part about what you just said is there are so many, yeah. There are so many moments that you're in love with to choose from. And I'm sort of just like, wanna hover there, that that's absolutely possible to have so many moments in your own life that you're just madly in love with. A lot of the journey and recovery from setback to come back is we're not just coming back to live the same life that we had before. We're here to live an amplified, passionate, limitless possibility experience of our own 24 hours. So I love it. Mm-hmm. And so let's dive in. We talked about the ocean, so let's use that metaphor. Tell us a story, uh, in your life that. Were you experienced a setback, something cracked open? Bring it. Tell us your story, Wendy. Yeah. Well I think, I feel like when I look, I just turned 48, so I feel like, I'm like, oh, how fun. What they say about getting older really is true, right? Like, yeah, you get the wrinkles and whatever, but it's like, it is so fun as you get older, like I find that I'm becoming more confident. I'm able to like really see, I'm really able to like shake, um. With a lot of work and intention able to, to continue to shake the, like, giving more Fs about what other people think than what I think, like that's been such a journey for me. And it's happening, it's really happening every single year. But when I look back at my almost 50 years here, it's like two big things stick out for sure is like my comeback moments. And that is for sure in like my parenting, um, nervous breakdown moment, which I'll, I'll speak to. And then the other one is like really, um, deciding to stop drinking alcohol two and a half years ago after. I mean, I started drinking alcohol when I was like 14. We were getting hammered in Marilyn keg parties by 15 were a thing. That was like what you did every single weekend. You were just drowning your emotions, um, and numbing yourself from like a very young age. And I still see that very standardized in our culture. Um, and so that's become a new passion of mine to really advocate for a different direction and to be able to model it differently to my kids. Not from a lens of, um, demonizing, but just more of like a, Hey look, it's possible to live like this and it's so much fun. So anyways, that's a side story, but let's go back to the parenting because that's really what sent me into the. Trajectory of like, of reset of a fresh start, expanding my heart, learning new tools, um, and healing on like a million different levels. So I was 30 when I had my first kid. Stella turned three when I was 33, and I had decided to leave my corporate career. I was in corporate America with a very successful career. Up until that point, everything had kind of been pretty air quotes, easy, so to speak. I mean, yeah, you, you had to work hard to get a career built, but like marriage felt easy, building a career felt easy. And then when I had kids, I was like, oh my gosh, what is happening? And the 3-year-old. Well, she, she just felt so difficult. Like everything, like I was like, Hey, go right. She'd go left. I'd be like, stop pulling the dog's tail so hard. She'd pull it harder. Stop touching the baby. She'd shake it, right? Like, I was just like, what? Something is wrong with this kid? Um, I was watching documentaries on like, maybe she's possessed, like, do I need an exorcist? Like maybe she has bipolar. Can a three-year-old have bipolar? And then it would spiral into like, what the f is wrong with me? Like, I should have control of these kids. I started asking for advice. Everyone under the sun was like, just hit her. That's the way to do it. Make sure she knows who's boss. Here's this Christian book and this air quotes Christian book, and this one will, you can just order it from Amazon. It'll teach you how to use a switch from the back tree. And I just was like, it was like probably six months or a year that I was like. This is so confusing and I was trying these like classic tactics, right? Like which really the majority of the world is still using a fear and force power over model in parenting, which we teach the opposite of. And we can go into that in a little bit. Um, but I started to just feel it in my intuition. I was like, something is off here and this fire like powerhouse little girl. Was like, oh hell no. You know, like the, I think I spanked her twice and like both times she lost her ish. Like she was not the submissive, like, yes ma'am, I'm so sorry for my problem. You know? She was like, hell no. And like everything I tried from a power over or autocratic or what we refer to as author authoritarian system, it just went horribly wrong. And so thank God, Dana, I got invited to a free positive parenting class at my daughter's preschool. I walked in the doors to that classroom and my entire life changed as soon as I started to learn these concepts that were so different than what I had been raised with. And I'm one of those people that's like, you know, I would tell you I'm air quotes fine. Yeah. We had spanking and we had like the traditional parenting stuff growing up, but I'm air quotes fine, right until you dropped me into a situation with my 3-year-old where she wouldn't put her shoes on or stop pulling the dog's tail and I. Lost my mind, like I became the yeller. I was like, who am I? I became the risk grabber. I became the reactive, like it felt like a, I felt like a monster. I was like, who am I? I was embarrassed. I was shameful at the very same time that I was thinking like. I should be thankful to be home with these kids, right? Like I had made it work financially somehow, even though it was really difficult. And so there was just all these emotions, positive parenting changed everything. Within six months of using the strategies we learned, she really started to change. And the most importantly, I began to change the way I saw the world, the way I saw myself, the way I started to take responsibility for my actions. I started to eliminate hypocrisy from our home. And, uh, it just was a beautiful, yet really intense journey, right? Because I, I think it took me seven years to stop yelling. It took me, just a long time to break some, like highly reactive patterns, like grabbing wrists too tight or, you know, that kind of stuff. But it's just been so fun and right around, I mean, I know it sounds crazy, but right around a decade is where I really hit the groove of like, oh, I think I'm fluent now. And even though there's still moments where I flare up or have moments of setback, um, it's just feels so cool to now be living in a state where there's been so much healing. There's been so much shedding of old skin and it's all because of that very low I would call it like a mini nervous breakdown where I really just wanted to run away. I wanted to quit. I questioned why I'd even had children. And now that's been transformed into being help able to help thousands of parents from across the planet. Um, our organization has a global community of parents we coach who are replacing those fear and force. Overpowering authoritarian strategies with firm and kind, connection based democratic parenting tools. And it's just so much fun. It's intense work, but it's so much fun. And as I noted now, the kids are almost 15, almost 18. And to see them thriving in the world, having used all these tools is just really, really fun. So that's a bit about my, my comeback story. I love that. So can we go back to, you said something really interesting and I want to hear more about what that was like. So it sounds like you said your career building was easy and your marriage was easy, so we're gonna bring you back for that second one. Yeah. But when you had your first child, and then you had your second child, it sounds like is two years younger, so two, three. Three, three years younger. Okay. Something happened in the way that you were experiencing your identity as it related to your, your kiddos and also yourself. Can you talk a little bit more about what that was like? Like give us a specific story. I remember I just like, it's almost like you're singing the same song that I, that I, I remember, I, I was at home with my first two. We made it work. It was hard and I kept thinking like, I should be a better mom, or I should be happier. I should be grateful. But often my older one would do something that would make me react. I'm sorry. I would react in response to something because nobody's making me do anything. Right. Except for my own volatility and nervous system. I love that. So that would happen and then I would react and then I would feel so ashamed about my reaction. Alright. And I would, I just remember the feel of the carpet on my face when I was just like laying down on the carpet crying so hard.'cause I couldn't believe, you know, it wasn't even that big of a deal per se, but it was like, it was against what I intuitively felt was the right thing. Yeah. And I'm like, why can't I stop reacting? So I'm wondering about like, can you speak to your, sounds like you used the word nervous breakdown identity expansion is, you know, another way to say it. Yeah. But what was that like for you? Okay. So that when I think back to that season, what really was like the most life changing? So nowadays here at Fisher Family, we have all the strategy, right? We have 150 lessons to teach parents strategy. Like I'd say, let's just say like 110 are strategy based. Like what do you say to your kid? How do you redirect revenge misbehavior? How do you handle power struggles? Like all these 1, 2, 3, 4, like. Blueprints, blah, blah, blah. And then so much of our work is like this undercurrent of life coaching, healing, ending, limiting beliefs, identifying protection patterns. Like that is so much of our work that I think supercharges the ability to carry through with the strategies. So back in that season, when I first started learning these new strategies that were very different, let's just take compassionate discipline versus punishment, right? To like, stop putting a kid in timeout and instead start practicing self calming and using logical consequences. Like that was a big shift. And I remember thinking cool, I can do whatever I want. Like I, I put I'm a successful person. And so you go to do it and it's like, oh hell no. Like it doesn't work like that. You don't just snap your fingers. And that's when I was like. Oh my gosh. Like, what, what is happening? Like a why can't I get this right? And that's when my teacher, at the time, who I studied under for 10 years, her name's Susie. She was like you just need to come to freedom to be, that is now a weekend healing program that we teach now. We actually purchased the ownership rights and we teach that to our students now. It's a weekend course, we do twice a year. But I walked into that classroom and, and I remember she said to me, I was like, Susie, I don't have time for, like, I, it would feel too bad leaving the kids all weekend or whatever. And she was like. Wendy, I'm telling you, she was so always so firm. She was like, you have no excuse not to come to this unless it is your child's birthday. And even then, trust me, you're gonna wanna have that birthday party on a different weekend because this will be the best gift you ever give your children. And she was right, because when I walked in there and went through the exercises and the healing that happened that weekend, that's when everything broke open for me. So it wasn't so much just studying the strategies, it was really going through some extensive healing. And, and I don't know, you know, hopefully this addresses your question, but that particular weekend and the things we look at has. It has two different missions. It's one to raise your awareness around your behavior, but then it's also to raise your self-acceptance. So you have self-awareness and self-acceptance, and both of those things have to go up because if you just have one go up and not the other, you won't have effective behavior change. So a lot of people become aware that, let's say they have hypocrisy in their home. So they, they're like, Hey, my kid freaks out and is reactive. And then they're, they're blind. They have blinders onto the fact that they're yelling or grabbing wrist too tight, or giving an attitude or using a tone of disgust. So a lot of people come to the self awareness a little bit fast. So like, oof, I see it now. The blinders are off. I see how I'm contributing or the behavior I have. But the self-acceptance piece is really the more challenging one, I would say. And that comes down to forgiving yourself, to seeing yourself, like emotion comes up in my body when I talk about this because. That was like the pivotal change because I think what happens is when you are raised with any type of autocratic or authoritarian parenting. Your mistakes are teed up as like character flaws, and you are conditioned your whole life to be really hard on yourself. And so when you enter into something like parenting and you get your ass kicked, you're like, I must be doing something wrong. And the thing is, is like when you're critical of yourself, you're gonna be critical of others. And so to really like, have significant change in my life and, and in all the life of my students now, there has to be that break open moment when you realize that beating yourself up is no longer an effective strategy. And to learn to really love yourself and admire yourself is quite the journey. And so that weekend is really when everything changed. And I, my identity started to become one of like great respect for myself. And I'll never forget walking out of the classroom that weekend and, um. One of my teachers who I love so much he said to me he said to me two things. He said, Hey, I want you to remember that one of your biggest jobs in life is gonna be to teach Stella how to feel scared. That was like a cool whole thing that we had done a lot of that weekend. But on another note, and then he said, he gave me a big hug and he goes, by the way, when are you gonna like really believe that you're a great effing mom? And I remember it like, hit me hard. I was like, Ooh. Because I would've always in the past been like, oh, I know, but thanks. I know. Or like comically be like, ha ha. But because of what I'd been through that weekend and the healing that had unlocked what he was saying was like really important because it was highlighting the fact that my identity. Even though I might put on a good act, like I wear cheetah jackets and like cool hats, and I don't know, I just present as confident. I wasn't actually confident. I didn't actually believe I was good, especially in the worst moments, right? Like after I had grabbed a wrist too tight or yelled, by 8:00 AM and I swore I wasn't gonna yell that day. And so that became a commitment of mine to really believe that about myself. And I can say that I've successfully done that and not from a cocky place. Like I'm like. I feel like humility is a superpower. So when I teach my community, I really love to share from a lens of like, oh my gosh, you're never gonna believe it. Easter, I freaked out. I yelled at my 17-year-old, like, and I'm ex genuinely excited to tell them, like, don't worry, you're not broken. Like this is still gonna happen. This like nervous system takes a long time to recondition, but when that happens, you don't need to panic, you don't need to demonize yourself. We know what to do. We know how to repair relationships. We know how to, to go back and take responsibility for where we got off track. But I can confidently say that the rewiring of the identity worked. It took a long time, but that was the beginning of, um, seeing myself differently, if that makes sense. Absolutely. And so I'm curious about, you've used the word healing a few times, so can you tell, can you tell me what you, what that looked like for you? Like in your experience? Yeah. When you were either doing the work or in the workshop, like what surfaced, what were you believing about yourself or what was a part of your identity that was demanding to be healed before you could step into your con confidence? Yeah. In your deep knowing that you're an incredible parent. Yeah, I'd say there was some elements, a few different elements that I can highlight. So one of them was shame for sure. Right. So like in that particular workshop, you know, which I have taken with me in into all my work. So most of my work is group work. Like private sessions are great. Only like my highest level full mastery students who are becoming certified coaches in the fresh Start family approach, they get private sessions with me. But like everyone else, we're doing group sessions, right? And in my opinion, that really melts away shame. So when you are able to say something in front of somebody and witness people not judging you, but instead drawing closer when you're willing to admit a mistake or share something that you feel scared that people are gonna judge you for, right? Like, um, and then you realize like, oh my gosh, I'm not alone this whole time I've been like, like keeping this hidden or something. And it's. No, actually it pulls you closer to people, right? So the shame, I think melted away. And then just learning to feel so most, like most of our work when it comes to like the deeper undercurrents of what we help parents do, which then helps them effectively implement the strategies is to heal through feeling. Because most of us were not taught how to feel when we were growing up, right? So it's like, if you were scared, it's like, don't be silly. It's not even dark, right? If your brother, like sister or whatever said something mean to you, it's like, oh, please. Like, you know, and you're like feeling hurt. It's like, oh gosh, I'm sure she was kidding. Like, don't be so dramatic. You know, get up. You're not even bleeding. Um, for sure you weren't allowed to be angry and if you were sad, like, here's a cookie, quick, just I'll do anything to if you stop crying. Um, so many of us are learning in our third, fourth decades of life how to just feel. And that weekend that particular program, you really go through a lot of exercises where you are supported as emotions come up, right? So whether that's for, like, we do a lot of work around forgiveness, so forgiving others and also forgiving yourself, like whoof, that's a big one, right? Or like we do holding space exercises where you are working on how you resolve conflict when someone's blaming you and when you're blaming someone else. And a lot of anger or like righteousness might come up. So just learning to feel. And move that through your body instead of suppress or re repress. We find that's what kind of unlocks. And then your note, like you get used to it over time. You get used to just being like, oh, okay. And, and there's like one particular thing that we do that's a protection learning process we teach where it's like you have a behavior that later you're like, Ugh, I wish I wouldn't have done that, or I wish I would've said that, right? Like a lot of people shut down and get quiet or become permissive with their kids. And so we have a way of looking at that of like, okay, we, we investigate, we understand what the trigger is, and then we unpack why that trigger is happening. And then once you have awareness around that, you have a little bit of a blueprint so you can start to create the stim, the space between stimulus and response. And that gives you power to start showing up differently even though it takes a lot of practice. So that's kind of some examples of what, what we do to, to break open the heart, so to speak. Can you speak from your individual perspective? You used the word shame and feeling, so can you tell us like, what did that, what were some of the things that you felt shame around? The intention is, and if you don't, if you'd rather pass on that, feel free. The intention is, you know, when, and this is something else that came up, came through for me, is I'm a part of the recovery movement and I attend women's meeting, one women's meeting specifically, where we've just created this really safe, powerful space for women to share what they're feeling ashamed of, or their doubts and fears or mistakes that they've made. And it is so, yeah. It's alm, it's a miraculous space because you can just watch them become lighter as they share that with a room. Yeah. And then you watch, you're just like, you're doing, like the women in the room are, they're leaning in and they're nodding and they're like me too. Or, I experienced deep compassion even if I don't have that same merit experience. So I'm just curious if, so there is a mom who's listening right now and she is currently experiencing shame. And so can you just share your personal experience before you even got to the group? Like what was it, what was that shame saying to you? Um, how were you experiencing? Yeah. Well, what's interesting is I feel like shame, I was just teaching my high level mastery students about this other day, and it's very different than guilt, right? Guilt is just like we always say, if you feel guilty, you are guilty. So just make amends, figure out a different way to do it differently tomorrow. But shame really just like, kind of whispers the deepest parts of your soul, like you are broken. Something is wrong with you. And I grew up in a home where shame on you was like the statement, right? Like my adorable, yet hilarious, like very critical. Mom still is 76. Well, like if the dog does something, you know, she just will scream at it. Shame on you Or my dad. I was just home in Maryland and my dad took the trash out and he's 83 years old, right? He, he didn't put the plastic bag right back in. When he went to walk down the driveway, we live in the country, and I'm just, I hear her talking to herself in the kitchen and she's like, dammit, shame on you, George. Shame on you. And I'm like, oh my gosh. I just realized as I get older, I'm like, this was a big thing in my house. She grew up Irish Catholic. She has all these stories, like she has some great stories about the nuns. Um, but she also has a lot of stories about how shame was just the way of the world in the school that she went to her whole life. And so I realized, okay, as I got older, I realized this is really a deep, deep thing, right? Like the, the idea that like, you should feel really bad. About yourself. And that is in general in parenting. Like that is a worldly thing. Like we ha we always ask students like, where do we get the notion that in order to make a child behave better, you must first make them feel worse. Like it is the way of the world. Like most people believe that if a child makes a mistake, if you make'em feel bad, that they have to feel this deep like remorse and awfulness about themselves. I mean, I guess remorse and feeling bad about yourself is different. But so I understood that. Right? So, so, but at that point, I didn't quite realize what was happening. So when I walked into that classroom, so like in my day-to-day parenting life, I just knew that I was suffering. I was super stressed out. I wanted to run away. I really still was in a cycle of blaming Stella. So that's the thing we've learned about shame, is shame and blame are like. Long lost lovers. Right. Okay. They're like an abusive relationship that no one wants to be in, but you like feel stuck in and you So true. Oh my gosh. So shame and blame. So if you have shame, you probably have blame. So that course, that weekend that we have now freedom to be, it unpacks both of them beautifully. But that weekend was my first time ex like starting to dip my toes in there. And really the way we used to do that program was way more intense. Like we've lightened since we've learned so much about true consent as like life coaches, we. We've lightened the footprint a little bit of that course, but back then it was very intense. Like it was like, holy smokes. And so I always say that'cause people are scared when they hear us talk about this stuff. And it's like, don't worry, this is the type of program where nowadays the way we teach it, nobody ha, nobody is required to speak. You don't. You can sit there and be quiet if you want. You don't have to. Which I think is really important for people to understand.'cause a lot of people will never walk in the door to something like this if they think that you're, they're gonna be forced and you really get to just. Quiet reflection is equally as transformative as speaking something aloud. But for me, that day, that was the first time that I spoke aloud that I was sexually abused at like 12 from like, um, a cousin, uh, no, I wasn't even 12, I was nine, and she was like 13. And it was like, oh my God, I had suppressed that for all these years. And it was like, so shameful. And then I said it aloud and people were like, oh, yeah. Like, you know, I, what I've learned is that like 60 something crazy, like 60% of the world has been sexually abused by like either an extended family member or a camp like blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, holy smokes. But the amount of suppression in the world, and that actually, I said it aloud that day, and I think the crevice of shame started to break a little bit, but I still kept it pretty quiet. I don't even think I shared it with my husband. But I, but, and we shared some other things that day that lightened the load for me to realize that it was actually safe to not hide everything anymore. And like, so that was, and then that kind of went back into the, the the chest, so to speak, of darkness for a long time. And what's interesting, Dana, is that is what kind of like, I would say God, like you, like it came back into the picture when I realized it's time for me to stop drinking. My little girl, um, was about 15 at the time, and we realized she was starting to experiment with like vaping and alcohol. And as a high level athlete, we were like, no, no, no, no, this can't happen, right? Like, we thought our kids were gonna do it differently. And then I looked at Terry and I was like, babe, we are straight up modeling, like high levels of addiction. We've been drinking and we had it as like fancy wine and all this stuff, but honestly, I mean, we were modeling to our kid what it looks like to numb yourself, right? And so I was like, honey, it's time. And we had thought to that point. I had thought, there's no way this is impossible. I literally cannot stop drinking. And I'll never forget, I drove her and her friends to a rollercoaster park one morning an hour and a half away and I was on my way home. And for some reason it was like a lightning bolt of healing. And God was just like, we're gonna work some stuff out right now and we're gonna like get rid of all the shame. And I remember I came home and I was like, honey, a I'm going to AA this week. It's happening. And I was just like, cry. I was like, never sobbed so much in my life. And I was like, and I wanna tell you something I. This happened to me when I was nine years old, and I've never told you. And he was, you know, he's so supportive. And it was like, I realized like, he's not judging me, right? Like it was just, but it was like finally I was free. I was free and it was like the most biggest thing I'd ever hid in my whole life. And I think from that point, that's where everything I was shameful about started to like lose its power. Right? And I, but I, I had suppressed it for 30 years. 30 years, 30 plus. Yeah. I think it was like 30 years even more. So that's a big long story to answer your question. And that's just one of the things, right? I mean, there's a lot. But yeah, it's fun being in community and because having, I imagine, I haven't attended the workshop yet, but it sounds amazing. Yeah. I imagine that there's power and shared community that unleashes. It relieves the fear long enough for, for us to get honest about what we are feeling ashamed of. Mm-hmm. Um, parenting is at least the first part of it. Now I feel like I've, like you have established more of like an understanding of who, who, and who is I am and how I wanna show up. I also, like you have cleared out the stuff that was taking up the space for me to invite in the pause between my brain's amygdala reaction and my somatic spiritual response, which I'm still hitting about 80%. You know, there's 20% where I'm like, well, gotta make amends for that tomorrow. Exactly. I love that in both instances you experience, and this is such a beautiful part about any variation of recovery that you participate in, whether it's your recovery as a shame filled parent or you're recovering as an alcoholic or whatever your version of recovery is, is that when we get honest, first of all, this is what I heard you say. I don't wanna leave this out because it's crucial. You said that you had some sort of interaction with God, you had a connection with God and God was like, Hey, it's time for us to do that. And that for me has been an essential ingredient and I love that. I was looking at or just, um, scanning your podcast around this faith foundation approach to being the best parent that you can possibly be. And I was never, nor do I think I ever could do it secularly without some sort of guiding higher force. I love that you got the message of, Hey, it's time to heal, and then you took the direction. And that also gives great insight on parenting and like what the next right move is and also introduces you to the right people when you're guided by that presence that god, that force whatever name you're using.'cause it doesn't care. Yeah. Um, there was one other thing just around, oh, your recognition that our kids don't do what we teach them or ask them. They do what they see. This, I mean, we could ex we could expand this so long. I just, I wanna make sure that we get to what it's, look what it looks like now for you. You've done such a beautiful job. Yeah. And I'm just like, there something that came up for me that I wanted to say out loud was. We have this whole generation, I'm in mid forties as well. We're all fine, right? Like I got hit and I turned out fine and I love it when people say that.'cause I just look at'em, it's very awkward. I just wait about six seconds and I tilt my head like this and I'm like, are you fine? Totally. Just let it be awkward and like, no, you're not. Nobody is. Because that's. That's not trauma informed. Let's not holistic human, like human treatment of each other. Yeah. Okay. But that, that aside, I heard this comedian saying he was making a joke of it, but I'll never forget it because it went straight to my soul. He was joking about how we will put people in jail for hitting each other on the street. Right. Like if you are at a bar and you hit somebody, you're probably going to jail. But we are encouraged to hit our smallest humans. Oh, just hit it outta them. I'm like, what? That does not seem right. So there was one time where I spanked my daughter who was maybe ten two, and it was just a light.'cause I vowed, I'm like, I'm never putting my hands. We got beat so badly. There were marks and I was like, I'm never doing that. But I also didn't have anything to replace that, you know? Yeah. I'm just never doing it. It's like drinking. I was like, I'm never doing it.'cause my dad was in recovery. But just not doing it doesn't work. We've got to have some sort of, in my opinion, spirit based replacement. Yeah. Okay, good. Well what do I do? And so when that happened, I thought, I used my adult force to teach air quotes. My daughter. Who's, she weighs like 15 pounds or something, you know, like No. Yeah, there's something off about that. Okay. So I'm not sure where I was going with that, but I wanted to share that with you because mm-hmm. It sounds like, and I know a lot of women in my community and audience are parents and have experienced some variation of shame. Ma much of it comes up when we become parents. Can you talk a little bit about either your personal experience or your given your program expertise around what, why that, why does that happen? Why do we get new shame when we have new humans? Humans? Oh, I love this question because to me it's like the biggest celebration because these little stinkers are the best invitation into healing. Like they, for my people, for me, like they are the reason. Why healing happens like so without them a lot of times. Like if Stella wouldn't have been gifted to me exactly the way she is. And holy smokes that chick as a powerhouse. She's the same powerhouse today. She has been, but she was as she was at three, but now she's just incredibly emotional literate. Like highly skilled at peaceful, conflict resolution, humble af, but yet still fiery as hell, right? But like if I wouldn't have been given that challenge, I would've probably just stayed as I was, right? Like if I would've just been given these mellow kids that like, and God bless all types of kids, even the chill kids, like my son is a very chill, like tender hearted kid. And even he like benefits so greatly from being raised with this work because it's just so different. And there's a million different aspects besides just strong-willed kids. But the ones that really bring you to your knees, they are the ones that often allow us to say, oh, something's happening here. That we need help with. And and because they're the ones who have the balls to, to challenge the authority, right? And when, and there's nothing like when you grow up in a system that is like a power over system and then you have a mini human come along that challenges your power and that like you, as we grow up, our nervous systems get set to like the tone or the temperature of our homes, especially around mistakes and especially around power. And so challenging authority is dangerous. Making mistakes is dangerous. So then when you have little mini humans that challenge authority, that make mistakes, it is, it feels dangerous to your nervous system. So it quite honestly is a nervous system response. It is a condition response. Your body is just trying to keep you safe. And and the people who are, are willing and they hear the message of like, Hey, you can you, this is an opportunity for healing.'cause you don't have to overpower, you don't have to hurt and harm, but I know you are tempted to because that's your nervous system trying to keep you safe. But like I can teach you a different way. The people that step into that, their entire future trajectory of their life changes. So I see strong-willed kids, especially as like angels of the world. Um, there's a little, there's a book called The Little Soul in the Sun. That I love. Um, I think it's downstairs. I read an office in my church and I get donated all my books to the kids' library'cause I'm like, these kids need to have, so I never have them for my podcast interviews, but it's called The Little Soul in the Sun. And it's so cool. It's about God or this little, these um, little souls, they get together this one little soul. He's like, Hey, I wanna go down to earth, but I really wanna teach someone I wanna teach, like someone about forgiveness or something. And God's like, okay, cool. He is like, you can do that, but you're gonna need to give, like, there's gonna need to be someone that like basically gives you an opportunity. To forgive. So someone is gonna need to do something very bad, right? Like triggering whatever. And so his little buddy, this other little soul, like volunteers, he's like, I'll do it, I'll do it. I'll come to Earth and I'll be the be like this person who does something really unkind to you, you know? Um, and his buddy's like, okay, cool. And he's like, but you just have to remember. Who I really am and it's the most beautiful story. And God like blesses them as they go down to earth, but like that is how it works. You don't get to say you are a patient person unless you have given, been given opportunities to practice what true patience is, or compassion or empathy. Like for me, someone who tries to live with like the fruits of the spirit as like my daily walk. I don't get to claim that I have self-control if I'm constantly like in a garden of rainbows and butterflies and no one is like challenging me, like no. Give me the biggest challenge because that's where I'm gonna become the most patient and compassionate. And so that's what Stella has provided for me. And because of that, she's a badass and so am I now. But like, it wasn't because it was easy, it was because it was like she just is a system disruptor just as I am. And and the world has traditionally not looked at system disruptors with great reverence. They've been looked at as judgment, you know, with judgment. And they're, and I mean we're seeing the rise of that right now in America. It's like, if you challenge the system, there is danger. But there's many of us who just can't help not. So anyways, that's kind of my riff on that. Yeah, so you, the other thing that came through for me is you used the word disruptor, but I lo I end, and I love the term generational interrupter, where you learn these new, these new, it's new, I don't wanna call it skills and strategies because we both know it's much deeper than that. The skills and strategies are just a symptom of your expanded identity into what you're capable of, what's po what's possible for you in a way to show up as with yeah, in a different way as a mom. So we create these generational interruptions so that my daughters will never experience the kind of, some of the kind of things that I experienced. And there's no blame there, right? Because our parents did, did what they learned. And so the raising of the consciousness of the planet right now is for us to be, you use the terms aware and what was the second one? That you're growing your awareness and you're growing your self acceptance. Self accept, like, yeah. So it's like aware of your own behavior, your own contribution to the suffering, and then acceptance of like compassion for yourself and how you got there, why it makes sense, and then you're not an alien. To tag on a third A, it's like, and then you take a different action. Yeah. And that's part of recovery. It's like, yes, there's this awareness that you're powerless over whatever it is. There's a self-acceptance that, like there's, you can't manage it, you can't control it yourself. And then, so we're gonna do this transformational work of recovery so that we can take a different action both internally and externally and through those, by us raising, I feel like I'm doing, you know, right there with you, like we're raising these generational interrupt, we're, we are the generational interrupters so that we can create more sy systemic disruptors. And together with those two things, it's like we're really, I have so much hope for the country and the planet because of this conversation. So I know it's true. Yeah. Tell us about what it looks like now, and you did, you did a nice job sort of at the very beginning of the conversation, but where you are now in relation to both the setback of the experience that you had in early parenting and the growth that you've experienced up to 10 in the first 10 years. And then also there's this nuance of you deciding to stop drinking. So tell us about what that looks like now. Like what is the transformation as you're in your seat right now? Yeah. Oh, it feels so good to talk about that. I don't feel like we celebrate that enough, right? Like the things we've come through and where we are now, um, it feels damn good, Dana. It feels really good, man. I can't even, like, I'll often use the term like, it feels like a million bucks or like, you've been climbing this mountain and like now you sit at the summit, it's like, I know that sound like, and the view you get, right? Like, I'm a skier, so it's like I, that view you get at the summit of the mountain is so breathtaking. It's like so beautiful. Um, and I know it sounds like dramatic, but like that's what it feels like both on the parenting front. And the alcohol free front, like the parenting front. Like, it's just so, it feels so powerful to know that I have influenced, essentially with dignity and respect and relationship. Because here we believe rules plus relationship equals respect. Rules minus relationship equals rebellion. This is why so many teenagers, especially Rebel, they hide things. They, you know, they do stuff. They, the last person they're coming to advice coming to for advice is their parents. But to see the like tool to see the investment pay off, right? Like, to be at this point where I'm like, damn, we did it, Terry. Like we did it right? And there's just when you have been doing it this long, like there's little things that just keep happening that you're like, oh my gosh, it's happening. You know, just the other day it was like in Maryland and um. My little guy who's the more like, chill again, like tenderhearted one, even though he is like almost six one. And like the super muscular dude now he's, I can see like the standing tall for your values. And even though he's more of like, it started to happen on the porch with my neighbors who have been like very radicalized in a sort of certain direction and he started speaking up and like talking about facts and saying like, Hey, actually, and it wasn't just me, this like, you know, person of holding dignity for all my neighbors and it was just really cool to start seeing that. And then Stella just seeing the way she shows up in the world and the way, um, she chooses to be, you know, alcohol free for the most part. Like just the way she talks and the way she solves conflict, the way she takes responsibility for, um, just. Two days ago, she, after she left one morning after breakfast and she had popped off a little bit of an attitude and she just text me, Hey mom, I just take full responsibility for that. I just wanna say I am, I'm really sorry for the way I handled myself. And, um, I think I was just stressed and, but it's no excuse. Like I, I really take into account, um, that breakfast you made for me and I, you really didn't deserve that attitude. Little things like that, that you're like, oh, that took years of work to have a kid that apologizes on their own instead of you making them apologize. It's just wild. It feels so good and there's no perfection, right? Like we, I still mess up. She still messes up. I still have moments where I'm like, damn, I'm still healing through this. Um, but it's, it just feels really, really good. And, um, and then to be able to gift my community with those tools and strategies and to have a purpose driven career feel so good around that too. And then on the alcohol free front, that is equally as powerful because I really, like three years ago, I just, I thought there was no way that I could do this. Like my entire life felt like it was built upon the joy of drinking alcohol. Terry and I had been, again, we're like best friends, soulmates. We had been connecting as that, as our main connection point since we were like 15 years old. And to have done it and now be living from this place where we sleep like babies, like we feel, I'm like, oh my God. Every time someone tells me they sleep like hell in their forties, I'm like, stop drinking. I'm like, trust me, are drinking. Have you tried it? Try it, I promise you. Um, we sleep um, so good. We can now go to like a wedding. We we're going to Mexico in just a few weeks and, um, and we had always said, oh, maybe we'll have a drink there. And it's like we look at each other and we're like, we don't even want it anymore. It just feels so good to wake up at 6:00 AM and be able to go in the ocean and not be hung over and, and to be modeling for our children, right? Like to walk the walk, not just talk the talk. Um, so that feels equally empowering. So, and I say that with humility, right? Like it's, it's, it, it, but at the same time I own it because it took a shit ton of work. Like I have dedicated my life to living this way and that took a lot of sacrifice, right? And so. So I celebrate that and I celebrate anybody who has the courage to walk into changing the models or changing the reliance on a substance. Um, because the rewards, it really is worth it. It really is worth it, I promise you. Yes. I love the idea. A mentor of mine. Teaches about the law of sacrifice as one of the, one of the laws of the universe, and really the law of sacrifice, right? So we're la letting go of the things that don't service the low vibration, the low frequency, the poor decision making, if you will, so that we can create space for the higher vibration, higher frequency of better choices that are available to us. And so when I think about sacrifice, it's like, yeah, it's, we're sacrificing the stuff that is not serving us in favor of the, the decisions and actions that due. Yeah. And so that makes me for when I, you know, so if I'm thinking about, oh, I'm sacrificing my sleep in order to get up for my five 30 workout class, like, yeah, I'm sacrificing me feeling blah'cause I slept in too long, or I had poor sleep or whatever for feeling amazing, which exercise affords me Yes, it's true. Lemme ask, can I ask you just one question out of curiosity because. I, one thing that I just, I feel like maybe I don't have expertise to say this, but I have a deep belief that kids, when they become teenagers, do not have to be assholes. And that we can absolutely have beautiful, intimate, connected, powerful relationships with our kids no matter how old they are. I don't have the experience having that, but I do have the deep belief. I've mentioned one of my favorite authors before the call, and she wrote this book and said, it's absolutely possible. I'm like, I'm not quite there yet, but I still believe it's possible. Even though the whole world, Wendy is like, no, it's, you know, it's almost like you almost have teenagers. Well, good luck with that. I'm like, we're setting them. We're really doing, I feel like this generation a disservice by setting them up with this belief, like, well, you're definitely gonna be terrible. Yeah. So can you speak into that? It's because that, you know, those kids whose parents believe that they're terrible, end up in the rooms of recovery. Oh yeah. Oh yes. That I love that viewpoint. Oh my gosh. I could have you on the show to, to talk about that'cause it's so true. Um, yeah, it's true. And I will add to that, that parents of teenagers don't have to be assholes because it takes a lot of humility. When you have a teenager going through that spurt of brain development and growth, um, we had a like polyvagal specialist, teen therapist on the show just a few episodes ago. His name is like Isha. I forget his last name. He is out of Seattle. It was so fun to learn about the teenage brain and what's actually happening when they have that power surge. Like we, we teach power surge seasons here, so like we have strong-willed kids that are constantly living a huge desire to feel powerful, but then you have power surges of life between the ages of like two and six, and then again from like 12 to 18 really. Really more like 17, I think is like where the surge becomes so strong, their desire for independence, autonomy like it just is like whoof. And then there's other things that are happening in the brain, which like really spikes their level of like fearing judgment, right? Like you see teens that like really rise with like their embarrassment factor or this is. A lot of like where attitudes come out, right? But like, when you are empowered and you understand and you are educated about what's actually happening, and you also are willing to do the work and the healing work to undo the limiting beliefs around other people's behavior and what that means about you and what that means about them. Like, you just start to have such clarity and you're able to detach more easily. You're able to ask for what you want. You're able, you're able to set strong boundaries and you're able to like keep the connection and the relationship even when people are imperfect, right? And that's, teenagers are imperfect. Like they, they have messy rooms, right? They sometimes give an attitude, but like, how you respond and lead the way is equally as important as how they, they act. And so it is just a two-way dance. And I just speak from personal experience that it is so fun having teenagers when you have great relationships and when you are an empowered parent who knows how to set firm boundaries, discipline with compassion. And it's also very challenging, right? Like that season when Stella was starting to dabble in the vaping and the. The drinking. I mean, I was pretty freaked out, right? But that was like right on the brink of when Terry and I stopped drinking. And that broke us open in so many new ways. Um, but there was a lot of compassionate discipline in that season, right? And like, thank God, because the majority of parents are just going to punishment, right? Like, you are grounded. You get a grounding, you get a grounding, you get your iPhone taken away, you get your e-bike taken away. And it's like, it is so wildly ineffective and it just destroys relationships. Um, it sends kids into the dark, so to speak. They start hiding. They start getting really good at lying and covering up. And it's just not necessary. It's not necessary. So speaking from the, the fun viewpoint, it's like when you have a great connection, your kids really do wanna hang out with you. It really happens. You have to invest, right? Like you have to be willing to find things that you have common ground on. Like in our family, it helps that, we're all into like, really good music, right? So like with my daughter, she's a drummer. She's like, um, a really prominent drummer and she's a really good metal drummer. So we're all into like heavy metal, right? So Metallica, we take them to see Metallica in Ireland at like a castle. And my son now, he's like backed away from that, but he's super into rap. So we went to see Wu-Tang, um, a few weekends ago, and it was insanely good, right? But like you have to do the work to keep the connection, especially if they. They start, you know, they start listening to new rap and you're like, oh, I can't stand new rap. Right? But you, you get to show up with humility and be like, all right, well maybe this one I can listen to. Or like, how about we, like with Taryn, it was very, like, he knew that we were into the old school rap, so we could get down with Wu Tang or a Tribe called Quest, and like that's how we connected. Um, but it takes some finagling, you know, like, but if you take the approach of like, oh, they're just, oh, these, these idiot kids with this new age rap, or like their attitudes and. It's not gonna work. Right? But it's so fun. And just the other day, Taryn said, where were we? We were in Maryland and we were at the mall. And he was like, I don't even know why he said it, but he said something like, it's so sad. The kids that like don't wanna like ever be with their parents. He goes, I love hanging out with you guys. And I was like, oh, thank you. I'm taking that as the biggest compliment ever and it does take work. But that is I think, a reflection of we've chosen to invest in relationship and the Wu-Tang concert thing is one example, but also compassionate discipline in their worst moments is another form of investing in relationship where you decide not to demonize or dehumanize, I would say your child. That builds just as much relationship as being like, okay, cool, we can buy tickets to that concert and go together. Or, Karen's big for like, he just loves to surf with me like he wants me in the ocean. Um, and so. You know, so things like that. So it is, it is so much fun. You get to watch grownup shows with them. Like, we've been watching The Walking Dead for the last year.'cause they're, they're grown, they're like grownups now. You know, like you can have real conversations, you can discuss grownup things. Um, and then you also, um, when you have peaceful conflict resolution skills and like fluency in that, anything that happens, it doesn't like kill your family. You have the ability to work through whatever drama presents itself and then come back together to like creatively solve the problem. And that feels really good too. So that's my take on teenage years. It's a lot. But it's incredible. It's, it's kind of been my favorite so far of all the parenting stages. And then last thing I'll add, Dana, is like, supporting them in their dreams is so much fun. Like watching Stella literally commit her entire life to getting this division one beach volleyball position the last year, and seeing her use her strong will for this and seeing her accomplish this goal was like one of the most beautiful things I've ever seen in my life. Like I still cannot believe she accomplished this because it's like a needle in a haystack thing. I, I wanna say the stat is like 1% of high school athletes make it into to play division one sports in college and then add on that it's a top 10 school and we're just like, holy smoke. She did it, but we got to do that as a team, right? Because it took a lot of teamwork. Um, her dad and me and even her brother who would watch the dogs every single weekend when we went to another volleyball tournament in la. But when you start to be able to do that with your, your kids and you're like a team, it's just so fun. I love that Wendy, what came through for me as a connection to recovery and relationships in general is we say this is the opposite of addiction is connection. And so, oh, I love that. A lot of folks come into the recovery community and they're so, they're totally disconnected, not just from their parents, but from the whole world and from themselves. And the most beautiful part of recovery is moving is the humility that comes with okay, well I'm white flagging this. I cannot do this anymore. And sometimes, I wish my story about stopping drinking was sounds as happy as yours. I literally had to be dragged across the pavement. Yeah. Into my own sobriety journey. But, you know, it's not about the journey. It's about the, it's about the transformation and the joy on the other side, but the most beautiful part is when. Humans, not just in recovery, but specifically. That's where I get to see it live. We come alive again because we get reconnected first with the movement, then with the other humans, and then to the power that's beating your heart, who you have a, you get a direct line to that. So how could you know, like you can't go wrong when you have a direct line to community connection and the creator and Oh, I love that. Yes. I I love that. That is a, it seems like that's a theme in the work that you do with families and helping. You work in the recovery movement, right? Because I'm sure that we as like moms and dads and aunts and grandmas come in and we're like, help us. We're in the middle of a breakdown, setback. You used it and then your. Journey of taking them us on a journey of transformation so that we can have the richest comeback that's available, which is this intimacy and connection with our kids, and a calm confidence in the way that we show up as ourselves and with them. So I am so honored to be in your presence, Wendy, and I wanna work with you. So please tell my audience where we can find you, how we can work with you, and I'll be sure to drop all of Wendy's links and contact bio, Instagram, all that good stuff in the show notes. Aw, thank you for asking and it's been so much fun to have this conversation today. Yeah. Um, I think I'd say come find us. Uh, our podcast is a great place to start'cause obviously we've got some podcast listeners here. So, uh, we are the Fresh Shirt Family Show. Uh, my husband co-hosts with me sometimes, so that's kind of fun to have the male perspective. We've got over 250 episodes with authors, educators, experts. Sometimes I'll do teaching, um, solo episodes. And then another great place if parents are like, Ooh, this sounds interesting. What is firm and kind, connection based parenting, especially if you've got a strong-willed kid. Um, we have what's, what we call a quick start learning bundle comes with a free learning guide and a free one hour interactive class with me where you can ask questions, you can get supported in. Just a quick hour and they can grab that fresh start. Family online.com/power bundle, or I'm over on Instagram. I'm fresh start Wendy. I go back and forth between like quitting Instagram and dissenting and saying I'm never gonna be part of that system again. And then other seasons where I'm like, I must have my voice and not be silent to let this world. Burned down. So right now I'm on there and, uh, if you just DM me, I please stay. Please stay. I have to vote that you stay because I love watching your stories and I'm like, yes, yes. Oh, thank you. That means the world to me. Thank you. I need you to stay. Okay, thank you. That means a lot to me'cause it's an interesting nervous system game for sure. Um, but if you just DM me, I'm at fresh. Sure. Wendy, if you just DM me the word freedom, I can help you get instant access to that. Sometimes it's easier. We have become a, a species that's like, if you gotta type in www dot blah, blah, blah, it's like, but if you can just DM me the word freedom, uh, fresh. Sure. Wendy. And then it's like, boom, you click three buttons and you're in. So that quick start learning bundle is a great place. Come find me on the podcast. Come find me on Instagram. Thank you Dana, for the work that you do. I love your voice. I love what you're about. I love how much we connected today and, uh, I'm just really grateful to be here. So thank you. Yeah, so I'm gonna say this. If you'll open your heart, I'm gonna open mine and just say, Wendy, I love you. I'm so grateful for you. Thank you. I'm so stinking proud of you, and I believe in your ability to create a life you absolutely love for yourself and for the thousands of families that you serve. Thank you so much for your work in the world. Thank you, Dana. Oh, whoa. Did you just feel what I felt? There is a whole lot of that and more to help you create miracles in your life. On upcoming episodes of the Girls Who Recover a podcast now ranked in the top 5% of podcasts globally. If you've built a strong recovery foundation and you're feeling ready to break through life's glass ceilings, let's make it happen together. In the show notes, you'll find a link to book a free one-on-one conversation with me and in that conversation. We'll get clear on what next level success even looks like for your life. We'll create some powerfully aligned goals and a plan. We're gonna talk about the big thing holding you back, and you will walk away with a roadmap for how to create a life you are obsessed with. Because hear this from me, my friend. You deserve. Success and freedom and the full identity of a woman who knows what she's capable of and who she is. And I wanna help you get there. So book your free call in the notes. And if you love this episode, follow us five stars, write a review, share it with your best friend, share it with your mom. And in case you haven't heard it today, I love you. I'm so proud of you, and I believe in your ability to create a gorgeous life. You are madly in love with starting. Right now and I'll see you in the next episode, blah.